Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #116: Interview with Jerry Nicholson, Co-Founder, Accessible Data

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #116: Interview with Jerry Nicholson, Co-Founder, Accessible Data · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:12
  Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP,
• 0:17
  Podcast Commentator: and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast,
• 0:22
  Podcast Commentator: Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 0:27
  Podcast Commentator: insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
• 0:31
  Podcast Commentator: Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 0:35
  Podcast Commentator: especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate,
• 0:40
  Podcast Commentator: author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer,
• 0:45
  Podcast Commentator: entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator.
• 0:50
  Podcast Commentator: She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills,
• 0:54
  Podcast Commentator: and expertise in access technology and information.
• 0:58
  Podcast Commentator: As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 1:02
  Podcast Commentator: she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 1:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone,
• 1:09
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm Donna J. Jodhan,
• 1:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
• 1:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: through sound, touch, and
• 1:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: amongst other things, stubborn optimism.
• 1:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant,
• 1:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: author, lifelong barrier buster,
• 1:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: who also happens to be blind.
• 1:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
• 1:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to
• 1:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
• 2:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: not just to sighted ones.
• 2:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And in July of 2019,
• 2:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
• 2:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
• 2:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022,
• 2:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for
• 2:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: tireless commitment to removing barriers.
• 2:34
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room
• 2:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
• 2:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: producing audio mysteries,
• 2:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain
• 2:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: language.
• 2:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal,
• 3:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice.
• 3:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
• 3:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh
• 3:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: ideas.
• 3:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
• 3:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest,
• 3:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the
• 3:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: world that we are trying to build.
• 3:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am pleased and privileged to welcome Jerry Nicholson all the way across the
• 3:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: pond in the UK. Hello, Jerry, and welcome to my podcast.
• 3:52
  Jerry Nicholson: Hi, Donna, and it's a pleasure to be speaking with you today.
• 3:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So what's the weather like in the UK at the present time?
• 4:02
  Jerry Nicholson: Well, the weather in the UK constantly changes, so—
• 4:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
• 4:05
  Jerry Nicholson: It was rainy this morning, but it's now beautiful outside.
• 4:09
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good.
• 4:09
  Jerry Nicholson: Big blue skies with a few fluffy white clouds.
• 4:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, nice. Nice. So Jerry,
• 4:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary.
• 4:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I always like to begin at the very beginning.
• 4:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So tell us about your early path from studying geography
• 4:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: at the University of Edinburgh to qualifying as a chartered
• 4:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: accountant with the Institute of Chartered Accountants
• 4:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: of Scotland. Back then,
• 4:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what did you imagine that your life's work would be?
• 4:53
  Jerry Nicholson: Oh, that's a good question, Donna.
• 4:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
• 4:56
  Jerry Nicholson: [laughs] Yeah, I think I left
• 4:59
  Jerry Nicholson: university with just, I suppose, a desire to
• 5:06
  Jerry Nicholson: do something meaningful with my work.
• 5:10
  Jerry Nicholson: So more than just make money
• 5:14
  Jerry Nicholson: and live comfortably. But to actually do something
• 5:19
  Jerry Nicholson: that had purpose at the
• 5:21
  Jerry Nicholson: center of it. But I've also always been quite interested in
• 5:30
  Jerry Nicholson: business and making things commercial.
• 5:35
  Jerry Nicholson: So I suppose that's what drove me
• 5:38
  Jerry Nicholson: to study accountancy.
• 5:42
  Jerry Nicholson: Not as an end in itself,
• 5:43
  Jerry Nicholson: but just feeling that that would be a useful thing to learn a bit about finance
• 5:49
  Jerry Nicholson: and how businesses worked, to see what would then open up at the end of that.
• 5:54
  Jerry Nicholson: So in many, many respects,
• 5:56
  Jerry Nicholson: my time training as an accountant was a bit like a continuation of my
• 6:02
  Jerry Nicholson: education. So I would say that I really started
• 6:06
  Jerry Nicholson: pursuing my work journey
• 6:10
  Jerry Nicholson: when I was
• 6:12
  Jerry Nicholson: 30. So after qualifying as a chartered accountant and spending times with
• 6:17
  Jerry Nicholson: PwC and Ernst & Young—
• 6:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [instrumental music] Now,
• 6:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: at around 2010, you and your wife, Fiona,
• 6:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: moved from the United Kingdom to Dhaka, Bangladesh.
• 6:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A move in, I understand,
• 6:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: was sparked by...
• 6:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sorry, it was sparked by
• 6:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: reading Muhammad Yunus on
• 6:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: microfinance.
• 6:59
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What drew you there,
• 7:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what did those users teach you about who gets
• 7:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: included and who gets left out when important
• 7:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: decisions are made?
• 7:16
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah.
• 7:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A loaded question, so I—
• 7:18
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, no, it's a good question. Yeah, so I suppose
• 7:23
  Jerry Nicholson: I first went to Bangladesh with Fiona
• 7:27
  Jerry Nicholson: shortly after we got married,
• 7:30
  Jerry Nicholson: and I had qualified as a chartered accountant.
• 7:34
  Jerry Nicholson: And a bit like I was saying previously, Donna, I'd always
• 7:38
  Jerry Nicholson: gone into accountancy
• 7:41
  Jerry Nicholson: as a means to an end. So we're really just asking those questions,
• 7:47
  Jerry Nicholson: "Well, what are we gonna do with our lives?" And particularly,
• 7:51
  Jerry Nicholson: "How's our work gonna fit into that?"
• 7:55
  Jerry Nicholson: So in 2000 and... I think it was probably 2004, 2005,
• 8:02
  Jerry Nicholson: Fi and I,
• 8:03
  Jerry Nicholson: we spent a year traveling,
• 8:06
  Jerry Nicholson: and we spent a bit of time in
• 8:10
  Jerry Nicholson: a country called Tajikistan in Central Asia.
• 8:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
• 8:13
  Jerry Nicholson: And then we did a big trip starting in
• 8:16
  Jerry Nicholson: Cambodia and working—
• 8:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 8:18
  Jerry Nicholson: Our way over land back to the UK.
• 8:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ooh.
• 8:21
  Jerry Nicholson: And we were meeting up with lots of different people who were doing
• 8:25
  Jerry Nicholson: interesting things and using business and finance to create
• 8:31
  Jerry Nicholson: opportunities.
• 8:33
  Jerry Nicholson: And as part of that trip, we passed through Bangladesh.
• 8:40
  Jerry Nicholson: We'd both read Muhammad Yunus's book, Banker to the Poor,
• 8:45
  Jerry Nicholson: and had read about microfinance and this idea of financial
• 8:50
  Jerry Nicholson: institutions lending
• 8:55
  Jerry Nicholson: people with very limited means really quite small amounts of money,
• 8:59
  Jerry Nicholson: so maybe $50 or $100, which would enable them to—
• 9:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 9:04
  Jerry Nicholson: Maybe buy a sewing machine or buy a cow,
• 9:09
  Jerry Nicholson: some sort of small
• 9:12
  Jerry Nicholson: income-generating asset,
• 9:14
  Jerry Nicholson: and then that would then provide some additional revenue for the family.
• 9:21
  Jerry Nicholson: And this was an idea that seemed quite interesting to us.
• 9:24
  Jerry Nicholson: So we actually spent about three weeks in Bangladesh and had the pleasure of meeting
• 9:30
  Jerry Nicholson: Professor Muhammad Yunus, who is
• 9:34
  Jerry Nicholson: incredible, a incredibly humble man and a great leader.
• 9:39
  Jerry Nicholson: And that was a wonderful time.
• 9:42
  Jerry Nicholson: But as part of that trip, one of the things we thought was,
• 9:45
  Jerry Nicholson: well, microfinance has a role.
• 9:48
  Jerry Nicholson: It also has its critics, which
• 9:52
  Jerry Nicholson: I agree with some of the criticism of the microfinance model,
• 9:55
  Jerry Nicholson: but I think it definitely has a part to play.
• 9:58
  Jerry Nicholson: But Fi and I then started thinking,
• 10:02
  Jerry Nicholson: well, really microfinance is very widely provided,
• 10:05
  Jerry Nicholson: particularly in a country like Bangladesh, so it doesn't need more microfinance.
• 10:11
  Jerry Nicholson: But what Bangladesh and I think many countries like it do need are
• 10:17
  Jerry Nicholson: venture capital or
• 10:20
  Jerry Nicholson: risk capital—
• 10:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 10:22
  Jerry Nicholson: To help businesses which have the potential to scale.
• 10:26
  Jerry Nicholson: So not sort of microfinance to finance a cottage industry,
• 10:31
  Jerry Nicholson: but,
• 10:33
  Jerry Nicholson: yeah, venture capital to really grow enterprises.
• 10:37
  Jerry Nicholson: So that's really what Fi and I then started thinking about.
• 10:41
  Jerry Nicholson: And ultimately, we went back to Bangladesh about four years later,
• 10:46
  Jerry Nicholson: four or five years later in 2010,
• 10:49
  Jerry Nicholson: and we set up an organization called Tindercapital to try and get—
• 10:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 10:53
  Jerry Nicholson: That type of venture capital going to those
• 10:57
  Jerry Nicholson: early stage scalable businesses.
• 11:01
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The name Tindercapital, I'm just curious,
• 11:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: how did the name come about?
• 11:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What went into giving this name to your venture?
• 11:13
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, that's a good question. Well, we actually named it...
• 11:15
  Jerry Nicholson: I mean, there's now the very famous dating app Tinder,
• 11:20
  Jerry Nicholson: but we actually named Tindercapital
• 11:23
  Jerry Nicholson: before Tinder came about, or certainly we didn't know about it.
• 11:28
  Jerry Nicholson: So the idea is this,
• 11:30
  Jerry Nicholson: tinder being the small bits of wood or material that you would—
• 11:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 11:36
  Jerry Nicholson: Start a fire with, which would then lead to a much bigger fire.
• 11:40
  Jerry Nicholson: So it's the idea of providing that sort of
• 11:44
  Jerry Nicholson: quite strategic early stage capital to businesses which just
• 11:49
  Jerry Nicholson: needed it at that stage
• 11:52
  Jerry Nicholson: with the goal or the aim that as the business grew,
• 11:56
  Jerry Nicholson: that it could take on additional capital and later stage capital and really grow
• 12:01
  Jerry Nicholson: quite significant enterprises from it.
• 12:04
  Jerry Nicholson: So that was the idea behind the name.
• 12:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like the name Tindercapital.
• 12:09
  Jerry Nicholson: Oh, thank you.
• 12:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I do.
• 12:12
  Jerry Nicholson: [laughs]
• 12:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So [laughs] through Tindercapital and the Open
• 12:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Accelerator, you backed and supported rural
• 12:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: entrepreneurs working far outside Dhaka,
• 12:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: people who were often a long way from the usual sources of
• 12:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: investment. Now, looking back,
• 12:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: do you see a connection between investing in overlooked
• 12:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: entrepreneurs
• 12:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: then and making sure that disabled people are
• 12:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: counted in the day-to-day operations?
• 12:59
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think I didn't consciously make that connection,
• 13:05
  Jerry Nicholson: Donna, but
• 13:08
  Jerry Nicholson: now that you ask me to reflect upon it, I think, yeah,
• 13:10
  Jerry Nicholson: there definitely is a strong connection there.
• 13:15
  Jerry Nicholson: I suppose I have a strong conviction that we're all
• 13:19
  Jerry Nicholson: valuable,
• 13:21
  Jerry Nicholson: have a contribution to make,
• 13:24
  Jerry Nicholson: and really should just be given equal opportunities.
• 13:29
  Jerry Nicholson: So whether that's
• 13:33
  Jerry Nicholson: an entrepreneur from a not wealthy background in a remote area of Bangladesh
• 13:38
  Jerry Nicholson: looking for opportunities to grow their business,
• 13:40
  Jerry Nicholson: or someone trying to fill in a form so they can participate in a
• 13:45
  Jerry Nicholson: consultation or—
• 13:48
  Jerry Nicholson: there are definitely some similarities there of looking to remove barriers and
• 13:52
  Jerry Nicholson: just sort of level the playing field.
• 13:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because I know today, from my own lived experience,
• 14:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: it's still very difficult for persons with disabilities to make their contribution
• 14:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and to be successful entrepreneurs.
• 14:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We're still fighting a lot of that.
• 14:09
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's really refreshing to hear you talk about it in this manner.
• 14:15
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah.
• 14:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 14:16
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. And thanks for asking me to reflect on that, Donna.
• 14:19
  Jerry Nicholson: It's—
• 14:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Oh, my pleasure.
• 14:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, Tindercapital's very first investment was
• 14:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oasis Coffins,
• 14:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: an eco-friendly manufacturer that you helped to turn
• 14:38
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: around by rewriting its business plan and
• 14:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: rebuilding its balance sheets so that it could attract
• 14:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: institutional backing.
• 14:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What did that experience teach you about patience and
• 14:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: persistence, and how have those lessons shaped
• 15:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: your way you build accessible data?
• 15:08
  Jerry Nicholson: Ooh, yeah, no, that's a good question.
• 15:12
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, I mean,
• 15:14
  Jerry Nicholson: it was a really good experience investing in Oasis Coffins,
• 15:19
  Jerry Nicholson: but if I'm honest, it was also one of the hardest experiences.
• 15:24
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah, and I think the reason for that is, well, one of the things it did,
• 15:27
  Jerry Nicholson: Donna, was really
• 15:30
  Jerry Nicholson: show me how difficult it is to invest successfully in an early stage business,
• 15:36
  Jerry Nicholson: just the
• 15:40
  Jerry Nicholson: number of variables and things that need to be right in order for the investment to
• 15:45
  Jerry Nicholson: work. So it felt—
• 15:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Jerry Nicholson: I was involved with that business for probably about five years.
• 15:52
  Jerry Nicholson: And
• 15:54
  Jerry Nicholson: as you say,
• 15:56
  Jerry Nicholson: the entrepreneur was someone who we met when we first came to Bangladesh.
• 16:01
  Jerry Nicholson: And, yeah, the entrepreneur
• 16:05
  Jerry Nicholson: is a good friend of mine.
• 16:07
  Jerry Nicholson: He's also an engineer, so
• 16:11
  Jerry Nicholson: he's fantastic at setting up a factory and everything that goes on inside of the
• 16:19
  Jerry Nicholson: factory, he's all over.
• 16:22
  Jerry Nicholson: But
• 16:24
  Jerry Nicholson: he wasn't particularly keen or gifted at sales.
• 16:28
  Jerry Nicholson: So it was a constant,
• 16:31
  Jerry Nicholson: yeah, I suppose struggle really to encourage
• 16:35
  Jerry Nicholson: the main founder of that business to look outside of the existing customers that the
• 16:40
  Jerry Nicholson: business had to really scale the business.
• 16:43
  Jerry Nicholson: So it did feel like in many respects it was making progress in one area,
• 16:48
  Jerry Nicholson: but then slipping back in another area.
• 16:52
  Jerry Nicholson: And actually the major customer that the business had was a UK company,
• 16:59
  Jerry Nicholson: a distributor.
• 17:04
  Jerry Nicholson: It bought a lot of coffins from the manufacturing business in Bangladesh,
• 17:09
  Jerry Nicholson: which was great to help the business get on its feet,
• 17:12
  Jerry Nicholson: but it was also an extremely demanding customer,
• 17:15
  Jerry Nicholson: so was always trying to cut the price or—
• 17:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah.
• 17:19
  Jerry Nicholson: Seek a different product or whatever.
• 17:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 17:21
  Jerry Nicholson: So—
• 17:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know all about that.
• 17:22
  Jerry Nicholson: The poor entrepreneur spent—
• 17:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. [laughs]
• 17:24
  Jerry Nicholson: 90% of their time—
• 17:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 17:25
  Jerry Nicholson: Trying to look after this one customer,
• 17:28
  Jerry Nicholson: and that meant that they had limited bandwidth to go after other customers.
• 17:31
  Jerry Nicholson: So what ended up happening at the end of that business,
• 17:36
  Jerry Nicholson: Donna, was
• 17:39
  Jerry Nicholson: they sold the manufacturing business to its UK customer.
• 17:43
  Jerry Nicholson: So in some respects it wasn't a huge success in terms of
• 17:50
  Jerry Nicholson: scaling that business, but on the other side,
• 17:53
  Jerry Nicholson: the business is now very stable, and it employs about 100,
• 17:58
  Jerry Nicholson: 120 people in Bangladesh.
• 18:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
• 18:01
  Jerry Nicholson: So yeah,
• 18:05
  Jerry Nicholson: it was an interesting case study in the challenges of [laughs] starting and
• 18:11
  Jerry Nicholson: growing a business.
• 18:14
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you're still alive to tell the story. I mean,
• 18:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think a lot of people might have given up and said,
• 18:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "Oh, good God, I can't do this," right?
• 18:23
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, Donna.
• 18:24
  Jerry Nicholson: I don't know how honest you want me to be in this podcast,
• 18:27
  Jerry Nicholson: but I actually had a bit of a breakdown—
• 18:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 18:30
  Jerry Nicholson: As part of my leadership of that business.
• 18:34
  Jerry Nicholson: When was that? That was in just before COVID, which I've now—
• 18:38
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 18:38
  Jerry Nicholson: Fully, I've now recovered from. And it—
• 18:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 18:40
  Jerry Nicholson: Actually was a... In some respects, those tough times force—
• 18:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 18:44
  Jerry Nicholson: You to look inside yourself and look at some issues that you might have just
• 18:48
  Jerry Nicholson: glossed over. So I actually view it as quite
• 18:52
  Jerry Nicholson: a positive and a productive time in my life, but it was also very hard as well.
• 19:01
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, all right.
• 19:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So
• 19:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: many of our listeners would wonder how a chartered
• 19:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: accountant and impact investor came to build
• 19:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: accessible survey software.
• 19:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your company began life under another name,
• 19:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Preignition, before becoming
• 19:31
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Accessible Data 2024.
• 19:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What was the moment or the conversation that turned your
• 19:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: attention to the way that disabled people are shut out of
• 19:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: surveys and forms?
• 19:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I want... I'm very curious to want to hear this answer from you.
• 19:55
  Jerry Nicholson: [laughs] Well, first of all, Donna, congratulations.
• 20:01
  Jerry Nicholson: You've done your research.
• 20:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Thank you.
• 20:04
  Jerry Nicholson: So [laughs] yeah, so I mean,
• 20:05
  Jerry Nicholson: it really carries on from where we left off with Oasis Coffins.
• 20:09
  Jerry Nicholson: So we arrived in Bangladesh in 2010.
• 20:13
  Jerry Nicholson: We started working with Oasis Coffins and investing in Oasis Coffins quite soon
• 20:18
  Jerry Nicholson: after arriving.
• 20:21
  Jerry Nicholson: But my wife and I,
• 20:24
  Jerry Nicholson: we're not hugely wealthy, so our company, Tindercapital,
• 20:28
  Jerry Nicholson: had very limited capital. So we started thinking about
• 20:32
  Jerry Nicholson: how can we work with more businesses,
• 20:36
  Jerry Nicholson: and how can we network with Bangladeshi banks and external
• 20:42
  Jerry Nicholson: investors who do have access to capital and can invest that in businesses in
• 20:47
  Jerry Nicholson: Bangladesh?
• 20:50
  Jerry Nicholson: So we then ran something called an accelerator program.
• 20:56
  Jerry Nicholson: So an accelerator program is, I suppose,
• 20:58
  Jerry Nicholson: a business support program designed for existing businesses that have got the
• 21:04
  Jerry Nicholson: potential to grow,
• 21:05
  Jerry Nicholson: and it really just provides some support for those businesses,
• 21:09
  Jerry Nicholson: helping them articulate their business plan,
• 21:14
  Jerry Nicholson: connecting them into mentors with particular skills,
• 21:19
  Jerry Nicholson: and also making introductions to investors.
• 21:24
  Jerry Nicholson: So we ran an accelerator program.
• 21:28
  Jerry Nicholson: We called it Open Accelerator.
• 21:31
  Jerry Nicholson: Normally accelerator programs are focused on early stage tech businesses,
• 21:37
  Jerry Nicholson: tech startups typically,
• 21:39
  Jerry Nicholson: and there were a few accelerators for tech startups happening in Dhaka.
• 21:44
  Jerry Nicholson: But we really wanted to work with
• 21:47
  Jerry Nicholson: rural entrepreneurs
• 21:50
  Jerry Nicholson: who didn't have the opportunity to participate in
• 21:56
  Jerry Nicholson: accelerators.
• 21:58
  Jerry Nicholson: So we had a fantastic year running Open Accelerator.
• 22:02
  Jerry Nicholson: We worked with... Well, we had about 140 businesses that applied,
• 22:07
  Jerry Nicholson: and we worked with, I think it was a cohort of 30,
• 22:11
  Jerry Nicholson: 30 businesses.
• 22:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 22:13
  Jerry Nicholson: And, yeah,
• 22:15
  Jerry Nicholson: it was a really good program.
• 22:18
  Jerry Nicholson: It was more a sort of a pilot program. And ultimately we were hoping
• 22:24
  Jerry Nicholson: to get it sponsored.
• 22:25
  Jerry Nicholson: So we had lots of conversations with Bangladeshi banks and telecom companies to
• 22:31
  Jerry Nicholson: see if we could encourage them to take over or to sponsor the Open Accelerator
• 22:38
  Jerry Nicholson: so it became sustainable and had a life going forward.
• 22:42
  Jerry Nicholson: But ultimately, we weren't successful at doing that.
• 22:48
  Jerry Nicholson: However, the journey into accessibility and accessible data collection was
• 22:54
  Jerry Nicholson: just as we were... I've been working with my business partner,
• 22:57
  Jerry Nicholson: Christophe,
• 22:59
  Jerry Nicholson: since 2015,
• 23:02
  Jerry Nicholson: when we started building. 'Cause when we were running this accelerator program,
• 23:07
  Jerry Nicholson: Donna,
• 23:09
  Jerry Nicholson: our entrepreneurs were all over Bangladesh.
• 23:12
  Jerry Nicholson: Our—
• 23:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 23:13
  Jerry Nicholson: Investors, some of them were based in Bangladesh,
• 23:16
  Jerry Nicholson: others were based in Holland or the UK or the US.
• 23:20
  Jerry Nicholson: So we had this very dispersed network,
• 23:26
  Jerry Nicholson: and our data was all over the place, and we spent a lot of time—
• 23:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 23:30
  Jerry Nicholson: Just trying to get the data together
• 23:33
  Jerry Nicholson: and
• 23:35
  Jerry Nicholson: present it to a particular investor or...
• 23:38
  Jerry Nicholson: So lots of data, but real difficulties managing that.
• 23:42
  Jerry Nicholson: So we started thinking there must be a better way of doing this.
• 23:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 23:47
  Jerry Nicholson: I then met Christophe—Christophe's actually a friend of my brother's—and
• 23:52
  Jerry Nicholson: found out that
• 23:55
  Jerry Nicholson: he was an expert at building information management systems.
• 23:58
  Jerry Nicholson: So we then initially started building a platform to support the accelerator that I
• 24:03
  Jerry Nicholson: was running to manage its program, well,
• 24:09
  Jerry Nicholson: but also to be able to use all that data
• 24:13
  Jerry Nicholson: that we had collected from the businesses to make that available to the investors,
• 24:18
  Jerry Nicholson: and also the information on the investors, make that available to the entrepreneurs.
• 24:22
  Jerry Nicholson: So just to make those connections.
• 24:25
  Jerry Nicholson: So
• 24:27
  Jerry Nicholson: we did that under the name of Preignition,
• 24:29
  Jerry Nicholson: and that's really what got Christophe and I working together.
• 24:33
  Jerry Nicholson: And we started building that platform for a couple of years.
• 24:38
  Jerry Nicholson: But then we realized that it was extremely difficult to
• 24:43
  Jerry Nicholson: commercialize that product.
• 24:45
  Jerry Nicholson: So we'd got some grant funding from USAID and
• 24:51
  Jerry Nicholson: UK Aid to start building that platform.
• 24:55
  Jerry Nicholson: But in order to really get it to work and commercialize itself,
• 24:58
  Jerry Nicholson: it needed...
• 25:00
  Jerry Nicholson: Well, yeah, it just basically just needed more development resource than we had.
• 25:07
  Jerry Nicholson: So
• 25:08
  Jerry Nicholson: since 2020, Christophe and I were slightly sort of
• 25:13
  Jerry Nicholson: running out of energy and running out of money—
• 25:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Jerry Nicholson: When
• 25:17
  Jerry Nicholson: Christophe's
• 25:19
  Jerry Nicholson: wife
• 25:21
  Jerry Nicholson: worked... Have you come across IDA, Donna, or the International Disability Alliance?
• 25:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've heard about it, yeah.
• 25:28
  Jerry Nicholson: So IDA's this amazing network of organizations of disabled people.
• 25:35
  Jerry Nicholson: So they have, I think it's about 12 core members.
• 25:40
  Jerry Nicholson: But then those members also have members. So they represent...
• 25:44
  Jerry Nicholson: There's about 4,000 organizations of disabled people who come
• 25:50
  Jerry Nicholson: together under the International Disability Alliance umbrella.
• 25:55
  Jerry Nicholson: So IDA essentially represents the global disability community
• 26:01
  Jerry Nicholson: to organizations like the United Nations.
• 26:06
  Jerry Nicholson: So they've been really influential in things like the Convention on the Rights
• 26:10
  Jerry Nicholson: of Disabled People.
• 26:13
  Jerry Nicholson: IDA
• 26:15
  Jerry Nicholson: played a key role in advocating for CRPD.
• 26:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, right. Yeah.
• 26:21
  Jerry Nicholson: And Christophe's wife, Priscille,
• 26:25
  Jerry Nicholson: worked for IDA back then. This is back in 2020.
• 26:30
  Jerry Nicholson: And IDA run a global survey
• 26:34
  Jerry Nicholson: to find out how their members are involved in decision-making in
• 26:40
  Jerry Nicholson: the country where they're based. And they were using a well-known
• 26:45
  Jerry Nicholson: survey tool in order to do that,
• 26:47
  Jerry Nicholson: and really struggling 'cause many of their members just couldn't fill in the survey.
• 26:54
  Jerry Nicholson: So the members were frustrated 'cause they couldn't have their opinions heard.
• 26:59
  Jerry Nicholson: And IDA had this big problem, and they just couldn't
• 27:03
  Jerry Nicholson: get the views of their members, which was
• 27:07
  Jerry Nicholson: what they wanted to base their advocacy upon.
• 27:11
  Jerry Nicholson: So Christophe kept hearing about these struggles and realized that through
• 27:16
  Jerry Nicholson: Preignition, we already had many of the components that we needed in order to
• 27:23
  Jerry Nicholson: host a survey. So our platform already had a form builder.
• 27:28
  Jerry Nicholson: It already had a process management,
• 27:34
  Jerry Nicholson: so a way of managing the data and managing data through different stages.
• 27:39
  Jerry Nicholson: So
• 27:43
  Jerry Nicholson: IDA put out an open call for proposals for an accessible survey tool.
• 27:49
  Jerry Nicholson: Because of the relationship between Christophe and Priscille,
• 27:52
  Jerry Nicholson: there was obviously needs to be...
• 27:54
  Jerry Nicholson: There was a potential conflict of interest there,
• 27:56
  Jerry Nicholson: so it was a very sort of transparent and clear bidding process.
• 28:03
  Jerry Nicholson: And eventually, Preignition was awarded that contract.
• 28:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 28:08
  Jerry Nicholson: So essentially under the terms of that agreement,
• 28:12
  Jerry Nicholson: we agreed to work together with IDA and IDA's members to essentially
• 28:20
  Jerry Nicholson: develop the platform that we had already been working on for a couple of years,
• 28:24
  Jerry Nicholson: but to really develop that into an accessible data collection
• 28:30
  Jerry Nicholson: tool.
• 28:32
  Jerry Nicholson: And we agreed to do that
• 28:35
  Jerry Nicholson: for quite
• 28:37
  Jerry Nicholson: a low cost, but on the understanding that
• 28:42
  Jerry Nicholson: they would have a platform that would be developed and deployed under their own
• 28:48
  Jerry Nicholson: domain and branding.
• 28:49
  Jerry Nicholson: So they have a tool called https://idata.tools.
• 28:54
  Jerry Nicholson: But we would retain the intellectual property and would release it under our
• 28:59
  Jerry Nicholson: own branding and make that available for other customers outside of IDA.
• 29:05
  Jerry Nicholson: So in that way, we would be able to commercialize the software,
• 29:11
  Jerry Nicholson: the platform, and continually be able to work on it and improve it.
• 29:18
  Jerry Nicholson: So that relationship with IDA and IDA's members
• 29:21
  Jerry Nicholson: is absolutely foundational to our origins,
• 29:26
  Jerry Nicholson: how we started building Accessible Surveys.
• 29:31
  Jerry Nicholson: And IDA is still, not only they're a customer,
• 29:34
  Jerry Nicholson: but they're a really important stakeholder for us.
• 29:38
  Jerry Nicholson: So yeah, that's—
• 29:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's wonderful. That's—
• 29:40
  Jerry Nicholson: That's how we got into building... We're focusing on accessible data collection.
• 29:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It sounds like a very, very interesting,
• 29:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: challenging journey for you,
• 29:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I guess your background as a chartered accountant really helped,
• 29:59
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: right?
• 30:01
  Jerry Nicholson: Yes. Yeah, I think it did. I think it did. I mean,
• 30:04
  Jerry Nicholson: I think I've been very fortunate in that we've always been able to sort of pay the
• 30:09
  Jerry Nicholson: mortgage and put food on the table. So if you can do that then,
• 30:14
  Jerry Nicholson: and you can also do work which you find meaningful,
• 30:18
  Jerry Nicholson: then that's the ingredients for a happy life, I think.
• 30:23
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah.
• 30:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it takes a very special type of person to be able to do that because a lot
• 30:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: of people would probably be scared to take those chances,
• 30:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: right?
• 30:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean,
• 30:34
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a lot of people are so insecure about their future,
• 30:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: how to move forward, what to do and things like that.
• 30:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I think for you,
• 30:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you didn't seem to be afraid to take the bull by the horns and go,
• 30:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: right?
• 30:50
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. And I think
• 30:52
  Jerry Nicholson: maybe two things on that. I mean, first of all, it's very much
• 30:56
  Jerry Nicholson: a shared, a joint thing with my wife, Fiona.
• 31:00
  Jerry Nicholson: So I couldn't...
• 31:02
  Jerry Nicholson: She has the same outlook, I suppose, and an appetite for adventure as I have.
• 31:08
  Jerry Nicholson: So
• 31:10
  Jerry Nicholson: that's really helpful.
• 31:12
  Jerry Nicholson: And the other thing is, I think maybe
• 31:15
  Jerry Nicholson: the fact that
• 31:17
  Jerry Nicholson: I do have that accountancy qualification.
• 31:20
  Jerry Nicholson: I sort of feel that if it all goes horribly wrong,
• 31:23
  Jerry Nicholson: I probably could get a job as an accountant,
• 31:26
  Jerry Nicholson: which is not what I want to do, but it's sort of like,
• 31:29
  Jerry Nicholson: I suppose maybe it feels like having a bit of a card in the pocket if I ever
• 31:35
  Jerry Nicholson: need to use it. But,
• 31:37
  Jerry Nicholson: yeah.
• 31:39
  Jerry Nicholson: So—
• 31:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 31:40
  Jerry Nicholson: Whether that sort of quite,
• 31:44
  Jerry Nicholson: I dunno,
• 31:44
  Jerry Nicholson: conventional start to my career has been helpful to allow me to take some more
• 31:50
  Jerry Nicholson: risks
• 31:52
  Jerry Nicholson: as I've developed it.
• 31:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think for one thing, having a backup plan, and two,
• 31:59
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: having a wife who is very like-minded certainly helps in
• 32:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the way you
• 32:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: progress through your lifelong journey, right?
• 32:10
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Yeah.
• 32:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 32:12
  Jerry Nicholson: I think so.
• 32:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 32:13
  Jerry Nicholson: And Donna,
• 32:13
  Jerry Nicholson: one important thing which I didn't mention in terms of our journey into
• 32:17
  Jerry Nicholson: accessibility,
• 32:21
  Jerry Nicholson: it's a real partnership between myself and my business partner is a guy called
• 32:27
  Jerry Nicholson: Christophe Geiser.
• 32:29
  Jerry Nicholson: Christophe is a lovely, lovely, talented guy.
• 32:34
  Jerry Nicholson: He's
• 32:36
  Jerry Nicholson: a Swiss national, but he lives in Lyon, in France,
• 32:41
  Jerry Nicholson: and he had a sister who had a disability.
• 32:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ah, okay.
• 32:45
  Jerry Nicholson: And so Christophe
• 32:48
  Jerry Nicholson: has been aware of the barriers that his sister faced all her life.
• 32:55
  Jerry Nicholson: And yeah, so for him,
• 32:58
  Jerry Nicholson: the working in accessibility also had that sort of personal connection.
• 33:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that helps a lot. I think if a person
• 33:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: is either a person with a disability or a person who has a friend or
• 33:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: family member
• 33:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: with a disability, it
• 33:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: certainly helps them to understand more what the needs are and how to go
• 33:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: about dealing with it. And then if you have the additional talent,
• 33:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you've got a lot of ingredients for success, don't you?
• 33:35
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Yeah.
• 33:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Your company's guiding belief is that
• 33:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: if a survey is not accessible,
• 33:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the data is incomplete.
• 33:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Researchers can adjust their results for people who
• 33:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: choose not to answer,
• 33:59
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but no statistical method can recover the voices of
• 34:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: people who were never able to answer in the first place.
• 34:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And for listeners who have never thought of a survey as a barrier,
• 34:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: why does that gap matter so much
• 34:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: for the roughly 1.3 billion people
• 34:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: worldwide living with significant disabilities
• 34:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and for the decisions made about their lives?
• 34:43
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, I think
• 34:47
  Jerry Nicholson: online forms
• 34:51
  Jerry Nicholson: are everywhere, you know? Companies—
• 34:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Quite.
• 34:54
  Jerry Nicholson: Governments—
• 34:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 34:56
  Jerry Nicholson: Universities. I mean, organizations
• 35:00
  Jerry Nicholson: are constantly wanting to collect data—
• 35:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 35:03
  Jerry Nicholson: To understand the world that they are working within.
• 35:09
  Jerry Nicholson: And they often use an online form or a survey to do that because
• 35:15
  Jerry Nicholson: for them, it's a
• 35:18
  Jerry Nicholson: fairly
• 35:21
  Jerry Nicholson: easy and low-cost way of collecting data from a large number of people.
• 35:28
  Jerry Nicholson: So because of the prevalence of online forms,
• 35:32
  Jerry Nicholson: if you're a person with a disability and you
• 35:35
  Jerry Nicholson: face obstacles filling in
• 35:38
  Jerry Nicholson: an online form, whether it's, maybe it's,
• 35:43
  Jerry Nicholson: you can't navigate it easily
• 35:46
  Jerry Nicholson: using your keyboard, so things aren't announced in the right
• 35:51
  Jerry Nicholson: order, or
• 35:54
  Jerry Nicholson: if
• 35:58
  Jerry Nicholson: you arrive,
• 35:58
  Jerry Nicholson: you use a sign language and the form doesn't support the sign language,
• 36:04
  Jerry Nicholson: or if you have
• 36:06
  Jerry Nicholson: an intellectual disability and you're used to,
• 36:09
  Jerry Nicholson: or you find it helpful to have things in an Easy Read format.
• 36:13
  Jerry Nicholson: So really lots of different barriers that different people and different communities
• 36:19
  Jerry Nicholson: face when filling in a
• 36:21
  Jerry Nicholson: form. And that has sort of profound implications for an individual's right to
• 36:27
  Jerry Nicholson: be consulted, to
• 36:30
  Jerry Nicholson: have their opinion heard, to
• 36:33
  Jerry Nicholson: vote, to sign up for a service.
• 36:37
  Jerry Nicholson: But equally on the other side, it has implications for organizations,
• 36:42
  Jerry Nicholson: who— Yeah,
• 36:44
  Jerry Nicholson: I think we'll give organizations the benefit of the doubt in saying
• 36:50
  Jerry Nicholson: it's better for them if they include everyone in their data collection,
• 36:55
  Jerry Nicholson: for different reasons. If you're a business,
• 36:59
  Jerry Nicholson: that's customers or suppliers or employees.
• 37:03
  Jerry Nicholson: If you're an academic and you're doing research, that's
• 37:09
  Jerry Nicholson: the people who you want to consult so your research can become
• 37:15
  Jerry Nicholson: just representative and not biased.
• 37:20
  Jerry Nicholson: Or if you're a government, you want to consult all your citizens.
• 37:25
  Jerry Nicholson: So I think there's really good reasons both from an individual perspective
• 37:32
  Jerry Nicholson: and a human rights perspective,
• 37:34
  Jerry Nicholson: but also from an organizational perspective and wanting better data to
• 37:38
  Jerry Nicholson: make better decisions. So I think making forms and surveys accessible,
• 37:44
  Jerry Nicholson: I think it addresses both of those key
• 37:48
  Jerry Nicholson: requirements.
• 37:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think one
• 37:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: continuous concern for me personally is that
• 37:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree with what you're saying,
• 38:01
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but I don't think people have really given much credence to the fact that you're
• 38:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: asking me to fill out a survey, but you're not paying me for it.
• 38:09
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're getting my information for free, and I really,
• 38:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: really don't— [laughs] I'm not very keen on
• 38:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: that type of way of thinking.
• 38:22
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah.
• 38:23
  Jerry Nicholson: I'd say to that, Donna, in terms of the
• 38:27
  Jerry Nicholson: survey, whether people are incentivized to fill in a survey or not,
• 38:34
  Jerry Nicholson: that is...
• 38:36
  Jerry Nicholson: I mean,
• 38:37
  Jerry Nicholson: you can run a survey on Accessible Surveys and offer incentives or rewards or payment
• 38:43
  Jerry Nicholson: for completing the survey.
• 38:47
  Jerry Nicholson: Or you cannot, but
• 38:49
  Jerry Nicholson: that's really... Yeah.
• 38:51
  Jerry Nicholson: I think
• 38:53
  Jerry Nicholson: making the survey accessible is really
• 38:58
  Jerry Nicholson: what we focus on—
• 39:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 39:00
  Jerry Nicholson: In terms of the process that that survey takes place in,
• 39:03
  Jerry Nicholson: and whether that's
• 39:06
  Jerry Nicholson: a paid survey for consumer research or any other type of research.
• 39:11
  Jerry Nicholson: That's
• 39:12
  Jerry Nicholson: really a decision for the organization running the survey and a decision for the
• 39:19
  Jerry Nicholson: survey participant about
• 39:22
  Jerry Nicholson: whether they want to fill in the survey or not.
• 39:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I agree with you.
• 39:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just thought I would just voice my own personal opinion on the fact that too many
• 39:31
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: organizations,
• 39:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you want... They are ask you to fill out a survey,
• 39:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but you're getting my information for free.
• 39:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're getting my lived experience for free.
• 39:42
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah.
• 39:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think it's about time respect should be shown to those of us who have unique
• 39:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: experiences and unique skills.
• 39:51
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah.
• 39:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But anyway, I mean, that's not what you concentrate on.
• 39:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And
• 39:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: clock is right—
• 39:56
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. Interestingly, Donna, you say... I mean,
• 40:00
  Jerry Nicholson: on that, the name of our company is Accessible Data,
• 40:05
  Jerry Nicholson: and Accessible Surveys is our first product.
• 40:09
  Jerry Nicholson: So we are actively looking at other products, and we certainly do.
• 40:13
  Jerry Nicholson: I mean, within the market research
• 40:16
  Jerry Nicholson: sector, they use paid panels a lot.
• 40:22
  Jerry Nicholson: So a company might come to them and say,
• 40:25
  Jerry Nicholson: "We really want to understand about the experiences of people who are blind or low
• 40:30
  Jerry Nicholson: vision when they're using our services in this part of the world,"
• 40:34
  Jerry Nicholson: for instance.
• 40:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 40:36
  Jerry Nicholson: And
• 40:38
  Jerry Nicholson: they will have a budget to pay for the insights on that subject.
• 40:44
  Jerry Nicholson: So there's no reason why we couldn't put a panel behind
• 40:51
  Jerry Nicholson: Accessible Surveys. Maybe it's Accessible Surveys, or maybe it's another product.
• 40:59
  Jerry Nicholson: And then have a panel of people with disabilities who then get invited to
• 41:05
  Jerry Nicholson: fill in surveys—
• 41:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 41:07
  Jerry Nicholson: And receive rewards and payments
• 41:10
  Jerry Nicholson: for doing that.
• 41:12
  Jerry Nicholson: And potentially our
• 41:15
  Jerry Nicholson: relationship with IDA and their incredible network throughout the world
• 41:20
  Jerry Nicholson: opens up some opportunities to do that. But
• 41:24
  Jerry Nicholson: that is a slightly different product, and we—
• 41:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 41:27
  Jerry Nicholson: We're not there yet. But I take your point, Donna, 100%.
• 41:34
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Clock is starting to wind down on me,
• 41:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so I wanted to ask you this final question here.
• 41:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What are your plans for the future? Well,
• 41:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you talked about other products. You talked about different things,
• 41:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but you got anything
• 41:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: in your tank waiting to be disclosed or—
• 41:54
  Jerry Nicholson: [laughs]
• 41:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You want to share?
• 41:57
  Jerry Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, I suppose I feel that
• 42:01
  Jerry Nicholson: Accessible Data is really just sort of getting going.
• 42:06
  Jerry Nicholson: We're... Yeah, we're at a really exciting stage in that we have some brilliant
• 42:12
  Jerry Nicholson: customers, early adopting customers.
• 42:15
  Jerry Nicholson: We have a great product which is
• 42:18
  Jerry Nicholson: improving every day.
• 42:21
  Jerry Nicholson: But it really just feels that we're just taking our first...
• 42:25
  Jerry Nicholson: We're in the shallows at the moment,
• 42:27
  Jerry Nicholson: and there's so much scope to build the company and develop the company.
• 42:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 42:32
  Jerry Nicholson: And as we do that,
• 42:35
  Jerry Nicholson: I think this thing of Nothing About Us Without Us and involving disabled people
• 42:41
  Jerry Nicholson: and people with lived experience not only as consumers of the product,
• 42:47
  Jerry Nicholson: but as
• 42:48
  Jerry Nicholson: teammates, as co-owners,
• 42:52
  Jerry Nicholson: as really part of who we are as an organization
• 42:59
  Jerry Nicholson: is really exciting and I think important, and I think that's the direction that
• 43:05
  Jerry Nicholson: we're going to go down.
• 43:07
  Jerry Nicholson: And I'd really love to look to develop relationships with
• 43:13
  Jerry Nicholson: networks like IDA,
• 43:15
  Jerry Nicholson: and there's also another network called the African Disability Forum.
• 43:20
  Jerry Nicholson: So looking at ways of involving
• 43:23
  Jerry Nicholson: organizations of disabled people
• 43:26
  Jerry Nicholson: more,
• 43:28
  Jerry Nicholson: that's where the business started. Our origins are in that relationship with IDA.
• 43:32
  Jerry Nicholson: But to really make that an active living part of
• 43:36
  Jerry Nicholson: who we are as a business and
• 43:39
  Jerry Nicholson: part of our future,
• 43:43
  Jerry Nicholson: that's really exciting for me.
• 43:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it is, and I think it opens up a lot of opportunities,
• 43:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: again,
• 43:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to enable persons with disabilities to have their voices heard.
• 43:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We struggle to have our voices heard as a community,
• 44:01
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so any sort of innovation,
• 44:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: any sort of initiative is always welcomed.
• 44:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I
• 44:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: wanna congratulate you on this. And also, in closing,
• 44:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'd like to offer an invitation to you, if you have the time,
• 44:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to write a short article on what you do and how you do it.
• 44:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what I would like to do is to publish it on
• 44:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: my website,
• 44:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: one of my websites, https://barrierfreecanada.org.
• 44:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because I think it's important not just to have
• 44:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a podcast, but also your written word. So if you're interested,
• 44:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm gonna be sending out invitations to those who have been on my
• 44:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Remarkable World Commentary podcast. So look for that,
• 44:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and if you're interested, I will not edit your article.
• 45:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will simply
• 45:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: post it as is.
• 45:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I will also have your name there as well.
• 45:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So think of it, and an invitation will be coming your way in the next week or so.
• 45:18
  Jerry Nicholson: Brilliant. Okay. Well, yeah, thanks, Donna.
• 45:20
  Jerry Nicholson: It's a pleasure to speak with you today. And, yeah,
• 45:22
  Jerry Nicholson: thanks for inviting me onto your podcast to
• 45:27
  Jerry Nicholson: talk.
• 45:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. It has been my pleasure, and you keep on going.
• 45:31
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
• 45:32
  Jerry Nicholson: Okay. Thanks, Donna. Enjoy the rest of your day.
• 45:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too, Jerry. Thank you very much.
• 45:37
  Jerry Nicholson: Okay. Bye.
• 45:38
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye-bye. Bye.
• 45:39
  Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her
• 45:45
  Podcast Commentator: at donnajodhan@gmail.com.
• 45:48
  Podcast Commentator: Until next time.