Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / '2112' at 50: How Rush Defied the Music Industry [Episode 365]

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'2112' at 50: How Rush Defied the Music Industry [Episode 365] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: There's that bit of lyrics there. What you own is
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: your own kingdom. What you do is your own glory,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: what you love is your own power. What you live
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: is your own story. That is the twenty one twelfth
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: story right there. And those are just four lines of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: lyrics that I have taken for myself as this is
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: how I'm going to live. This is how I'm going
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: to live my life. Totally rock and roll.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I mean got to leave you.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: You're reading little hands, It's time to run and roll, Rock,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Roll up. I totally booked.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock, the podcast for those
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: about to read and rock. I'm Erk Senich. Before we
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: get started. If you want to hear these episodes commercial
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: free and support the podcast, grab the backstage pass on
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Patreon for just five dollars a month, absolutely commercial free.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: The links in the show notes, or you can go
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: to Booked on Rock dot com. Now on to our guest,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: one of my favorite guests, Daniel Bucksban. I'm not saying
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: that because you're here.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I truly mean that you can say it because I'm here.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: That's okay, I don't mind.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: He is back this time to talk about his brand
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: new book, and I got it right here, Rush and
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: twenty one, twelve fifty years. How's it going, Dan, Good
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: to see you again.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: It's going well. I'm really excited for this book actually,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: so I'm sort of like rare indigo.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I don't blame you. And boy, what a
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: time it is for a Rush fan who knew that
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: in the year twenty twenty six would be talking about
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: an upcoming tour by Rush but that is the.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Case, or that there would be a Grace under Pressure
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: box set at least three days later. All of that timing,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I feel it is very important to say we had
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with it. We were planning to release
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: this now, having no idea anything was in the works
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: with those guys at all.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Gotcha. So it wasn't a marketing thing like let's lie
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: it up with the tour.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I mean now we'll say, you know, oh yeah, absolutely,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you know, according to plans. But no, we didn't orchestrate
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: any of that. And this was just one of those things.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: We just kind of got lucky that it turned out
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: the way that it did. Sure, but no, we had
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with it at all.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Well, we're going to talk all about the book, but
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: let's just get this out there right now. What are
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: your thoughts about the tour Rush returning with Anika Niles
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: on drums. You are a hardcore fan, so I'm very
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: interested in hearing what you have to say.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not only a hardcore fan, but I was on
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: this very show a couple of years ago saying they
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: will never get together, It's over, they will never reunite,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: you will never see them perform again ever, and now
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: here we.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Are sure nobody expected this.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, I mean really, you know, when I
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: did Rush at fifty my previous Rush title from twenty
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: twenty four, I mean really, you know, the consensus among
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: you know, everyone I talked to, you know, who I
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: worked with the band, and everything was like, it's it's done,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: that they are done, And they seemed done to me.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: But I knew that, like the way the last tour
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: had ended, you know, I knew it was not to
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: everyone's liking, mainly Getty's liking, because I think he wanted
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: to keep going. He's said so in the press, and
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: just when I when I heard about this, you know,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: I've read the statement that they made about why they
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: were doing it, and if you will pardon my French.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: One of the things that they said was we really
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: fucking miss it playing live and yeah, and when I
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: saw that, I was like, that's exactly the right reason
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: to be doing this. And you know, and when they're
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: talking about like you know that this will be a trip,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: you know, this is really the real tribute to Neil
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: in my view, and you know, it has the full
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: support of his family and everything. It's everything is kind
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: of squared away where it needs to be in my opinion.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: And you know, they there are a lot of people
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I know saying no Neil, no Rush, and they will
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: not go, you know, on that basis. Uh, there was
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: a Rush album already before Neil, so it existed before him. Rush.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: You know, really the foundation of it is alex Engetti
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: meeting in grammar school and bonding and they've just always
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: had that relationship and it's always been very close, very tight.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: They're really you know, BFFs, and you know, I know,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I know the band ending the way that it did
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: and then them having to keep Neil's illness a secret
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: for as long as they did and was just really
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: hard I'm sure on both of them. Uh. Now, some
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: time has passed, and you know, they it's been eleven
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: years since their last concert, and to me, just you know,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I look at all of it, I take in the
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: totality of it, and it seems to me like they're
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: doing all of this for the right reasons. The ticket
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: prices are insane, and that certainly is an issue. Uh,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: And anyone who wants to complain about that, I've I've
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I got you, absolutely.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, because I want to go see him when they
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: come to Connecticut. Are we talking like Springsteen territory here
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: like that?
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: It's from I know, I know someone I live in
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: New York City, one of my friends from here is
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: going to see them in Philadelphia because they can't afford
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: what the tickets are, you know. And part of that
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: is just New York is very expensive. But yeah, I
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's pricey, no doubt, okay. But you know,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: at the same time, that's that's the market right now,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: and that's you know, I'm not sure how much much
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: of that is really in their control anyway, but that
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: there is a lot of grumbling about the ticket prices
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: and that I yeah, I have no issue with complaining
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: about that, that's for sure.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I'd like to do an episode on Get Somebody from
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: the Inside to really explain that process. Whose fault is
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: it or whose responsibility is it? So why these ticket
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: prices are high is if the artist is soon, you
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: better do that soon.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Because Kid Rock said he's about to fix it.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Oh really? Is that what he said?
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: He and President Trump are going to fix it? Okay,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: don't worry.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: All right, Well, listen, I'll count on that. I'm going
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: to go see him when they come to Connecticut. Very
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: excited about that. But yeah, let's talk about this book
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: right here. And I figured i'd wait until you were
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: on before I officially remove it from this gorgeous sleeve.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Look at that. Huh yeah, we go right in the screen.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: So yeah. You talk about in the entr action to
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: the book about this album being the one where Rush
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: discovered their identity. Three albums before this two with Neil
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Peart talk about what was happening with Rush before twenty
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: one to twelve and what made this album so crucial
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: to their future.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I mean in the lead up to it.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: You know, they started out as this band that a
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: lot of people really kind of compared just to like
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: just led Zeppelin and then Neil comes in and that
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: changes everything quite a bit. It's much more progressive, but
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: it's it's still like very much has a foot in
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: hard rock. And then the third album, Corressive Steel, is
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: the one where it gets a lot more progressive, and
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: I think they lost some people with that who just
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: didn't quite get what they were doing. I would also
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: say that, you know, that album does have some some
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: flaws that make it a little inaccessible to some people
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: who aren't already fans. But to me, twenty one twelve
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: is where they just completely straighten it all out, figured
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: out exactly how to present everything. And I would say
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: it's very hard when you listen to that album to
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: hear any influences. I hear the Who a little bit
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Tommy specifically, but for the most you know, the album's
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: leading up to that, you can hear some of the influences,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: like certainly on the debut you hear a lot of
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Page coming from Alex Lives, and the next two
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: albums you can still hear kind of what they grew
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: up on and what they were playing in bars and
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Twenty one to twelve is like, okay,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: we're out of finishing school now and this is who
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: we are, and it's you know, it's a real statement
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: and a really clear statement. And you know, I think
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: if anyone had any issues their music before that, I
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: think it was that it was it was a little
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: less coherent of a package maybe, you know. And again,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: it's no disrespect to those albums because I love those albums.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Corressive Steel was massive for me when I heard it,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: but I can understand how it's not for everybody twenty
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: one to twelve. Somehow they figured it out and they
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: were able in figuring out to make that The first
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: thing you have to do is listen to the longest
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: song on the album, which for a lot of people
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: would be a barrier, but it's for that album, for
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: whatever reason, it's exactly right to start with that.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: That was my next question is how does an album
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: without a hit single it's not remotely commercial, but it's
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: their biggest sello. The music is brilliant, but conventional record
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: label wisdom would say, yeah, that's great, but without a
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: hit single, you know, nobody's going to know about it.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: How does an album build herround a twenty minute sweet
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: become their breakthrough instead? Of their downfall.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Well, the Mighty Donna helper to Who Am I a
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: great deal because she allowed me to interview her for
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: both of these books, And for those who don't know,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: she's basically the woman who discovered them. She was a
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Cleveland DJ. She plays working man. The rest is history.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: She was at Mercury at the time when they were
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: making twenty one to twelve. She was at that label,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: and she said that she remembered at one point, you know,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: because you know, the what was really coming down from
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the top was these guys need a single. And she
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: did some market research to show that there were these
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: bands at the time like Black Sabbath and Genesis who
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: were you know, getting out there and people were buying
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: their records and going to their concerts and everything. Even
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: though they didn't have a hit single. This was still
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: kind of a new ish concert at the time that
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: you could get across with an album. Uh, even though
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: we'd already had led Zeppelin four, it was it was
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: still not necessarily the way things were done, uh, you know,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: and she was saying a lot of Mercury pushing hard
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: for a single was not necessarily them being mad at Rush,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: which is how the story kind of gets portrayed a
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: lot over the years. It's just they wanted a single
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: from everybody, everybody on the label. They wanted a single,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: and the you know, the band that consistently gave them
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: that was Bachmann Turner Overdrive, who was also on the label,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: and just every record had one. Oh yeah, yeah, you know,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: and the expectation is like that every artist on the
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: label also should do the same. So Rush were not,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: you know, they weren't like the story goes, you know
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: that they were like singled out a little bit, and
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: you know, the label was like, give us a single,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: give us a single. And Donna was saying, that's really
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: not you know, yes, they wanted a single, absolutely, Yes,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: they wanted the record to sell, absolutely, But she also
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: said there were a lot of people at the label
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: who really were working very hard on Rush's behalf and
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: really understood what they were doing, uh and wanted them
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: to succeed on their terms. She mentioned Cliff Bernstein, who
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: manages Metallica now, but he was at Mercury at the
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: time and he loved them. He loved Carressive Steel, he
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: loved twenty one twelve. He totally got it, and she
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: for her, it was just very important to say that
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: there were people at the label at the time who
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: were really trying to do right by them and really
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: trying to help them. And the you know, the lore
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: of Mercury as you know, the corporate goliath against little David. Yes,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: they wanted a single, Yes, but that's a kind of
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: simplistic characterization of what the story was, because there were
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: a lot of good people there trying to help. And
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I'm glad I got to put some of the names
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: in the book too, because they're not people who are known.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: The album dedicated to Iron Rand, the novelist and polarizing
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: philosopher whose story is often featured alone creators standing against
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: a conformist society. Many rock critics leaned left and interpreted
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: this as ideological alignment. Did the controversy help create the
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: fiercely loyal Rush fan identity we still see today?
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, the critics just always hated them until
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: the nineties, So we're talking like the first twenty years
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: that they're together, just they got zero respect from anybody,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: and people said all kinds of horrible things about them
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: all the time. So I think by the time like
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: they got to getting in trouble with New Music Express
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight, Like they were kind of already
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: old hands at people saying they were the worst thing
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: in the world and this is terrible, and you know,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: so on and so forth. But there was a New
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Music Express profile in nineteen seventy eight that said they
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: were fascists because of the inin Rand connection. And you know,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know necessarily what the immediate impact
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: of that was in terms of how Russia perceived, but
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I have to say that, at least in my opinion,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: the constant negativity that they were subjected to on a
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: daily basis from every critic on earth probably had the
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: effect for them as a band of helping them like
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: really circle the wagons and you know, stick tight to
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: each other. And it did the same thing for the fans,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: where the fans I think became even more protective of
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: them and were even more like I, you know, because
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: my band has been attacked, I love them even more now.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I think that's what a lot of the critics didn't
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: realize is they were kind of unwittingly making the band
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: more beloved and you know, making their popularity deeper, and
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: by calling them fascists strengthen them even more. Yeah, you
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: know sometimes, Hey, as the great Eric Adams once said,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: that great philosopher, all my haters become my waiters when
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: I sit at the table of success. And you know,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Rush had so many haters, oh my god, you know,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: still to this day. But in a way, I feel
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: like that kind of helped them, and that that kind
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: of became part of their image.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: And if anything, it made it certainly made the fans
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: more dedicated and and more you know, sort of like
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: we need, we need to help, we need to protect
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: these guys. And you know, I don't. I don't think
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: they would have gotten into the Rock and Roll Hall
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of Fame without you know, these absolutely die hard you know,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: write or die fans writing letters every day to get
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: them in there. You don't, you don't just get that
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: kind of a fan base. It's like that takes time,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and it took a very long time for them to
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: get in. Uh. But you know, if you watch that
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: footage of them getting inducted, and you know, Johan Wenner
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: of Rolling Stone is up there trying to talk and
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: everyone is just booing him. You know, I mean, it's
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: it was kind of this moment of like, okay, fine,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: you know we uh, you know, the the establ the
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: rock establishment must after like forty years acknowledge Fine, this
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: band from Toronto, it's rush Fine. The fans pushed that,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: and the fans were always the ones who got them
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: over the finish line.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: That's a great story. Yeah, and Russian Kiss tour together
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: early on. Kiss is a very similar story. Different band musically,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: but same thing.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Oh oh, people hated them. Yeah. I was on another
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: one of these, like last week, I think, and the
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: guy was talking about how if he you know, he's
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: about the same age I am, and that when he
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: was a teenager, if he was seen in his Kiss
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: t shirt, like he really caught a lot of crap
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: for it, and it was it was like really yeah,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: But then you look at Kiss today and you would
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: never know they broke up. You know, they're still selling
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: merchant you know, and people still love them. People are
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: still buying the pinball machine and the and the Kiss
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: coffin and all of that stuff.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: You know. I think I have that downloaded. By the way,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: was it mixtapes? Oh yeah, there you go.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: I gotta love Oh very good.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'm a fan.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no's that's what he was true.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Kiss fans were, especially on nineteen seventy nine,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eighty one. If you're a Kiss fan, forget it.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: One other name we got to mention is Terry Brown.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: You're right that the story of twenty one twelve really
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: the story of Russia's association with him, the co producer.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: What made that relationship so pivotal at that exact.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Moment, Well, you know, when I talked to him, he
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: said that, you know, I mean, he knew that they were,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: you know, having some tension with the label, and that
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: like the last tour hadn't gone that well and they
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: were not in the best place, but he said, like
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: he didn't really think about that when they were making
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: the record, and to him, the process was the same
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: as everything they had done before that where the guys
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: came in, you know, very well prepared, absolutely knowing what
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: they wanted to do, and everyone I've ever talked to
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: who worked with them said they were the most prepared
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: band you were ever going to work with. But they
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: came in with basically finished songs and his job was
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: to kind of like coax out of them the best
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: performance of it and he wasn't really that concerned with like,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you know, let's make an album that that'll you know,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: make people at Mercury happy. Let's make an album. But
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: he just wasn't concerned about that at all. He was
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: very much like, no, you guys do what you do,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: and I believe in you, and I'm here to help
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: you maximize what you do. And you know, he said
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: that he knew those guys maybe were a little worried
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: about how it was going to be received, but he
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: was like, I thought they just nailed it totally.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you said they were in a fragile state heading
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: into the studio at that point.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but he had like just total confidence in them
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: and was sure they would get it right. And they did,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: and you know, he he but you know, I mean,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: he never needed any convincing about them in the first place.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: He said, like pretty much from the minute he heard
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: them when he was approached to mix the debut, just right,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: you know, he was like, oh my god, you know,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: and then I heard you know, the rickenbacker and Getty's voice,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: and I just never heard anything like it. It was,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: you know, so he got it immediately. And you know,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: some people with rush get it immediately, and he was
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: one of them.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: And you know, he.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Just wasn't concerned about any of the music industry stuff
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: at all, and he was really just about the art
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and the craft and let's just make a great record.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly what they did.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Here's another name, he Sime, the illustrator who Sime created
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: the album cover for seventy five's Caressa Steele, his first
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: time working for the group, and then the cover that
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: he submitted. Let's get into the how the concept for
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: this came together because the cover he submitted to Mercury Records,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: it went under some modifications. They took his original It
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: was a silver design, kind of a sleek silver design
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: and had all kinds of brown and there what what
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: happened with that? And how do we get to the
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: iconic cover we see now?
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Oh what happened with that was that he didn't know
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: and the band didn't know that at the time. The
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: label could just step in and decide, oh, you know
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: this covery you submitted, you know, we're just we're worried
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: it's not going to really move a lot of units,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: so we're just going to change everything. So when they
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: basically when the record shipped. That was the first time
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: those guys saw what the cover of Corressive Steel looked like,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: and it was just not at all what they submitted.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: So the contract was then changed so that any artwork
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: that was going to go to press Hughes sign had
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: to be present at the factory to approve it before
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: they you know, pressed the button on the conveyor belt
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: to print it, you know. And they've just always they've
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: been very protective about, you know, making sure that what
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: gets out there is what they intend, and that I
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: think that was a really big part of it too,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Like that was a big part of Okay, you know,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: the label has certain things that they can do that
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: might you know, sort of muck up our vision and
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: make it difficult for us to get across what we're
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: trying to do. So we need to just make sure,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: you know, where where where the last word on our
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: music and on how we present it, and you know.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: So the next thing then to benefit from that was
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the twenty one to twelve album cover, which you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the design on that Hugh compared it to their Playboy Bunny. Yeah, yeah,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: like and that just became yeah, that's the one show
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: and that's been it for the last fifty years, and
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I he's you know, certainly when
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: he designed it, he had no idea obviously that what
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: fifty years later we'd be like, yeah, it's their playboy bunny.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: You know, you don't make decisions like that. But he,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: you know, he said that he was just he just
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: listened to the lyrics that Neil had written and the
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: artwork that was really it really just kind of came
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: from that, and he was just sort of inspired by,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: you know, to really boil it down the simple story
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: of like, you know, the individual against society, and so
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: he just made images that kind of reflected that and
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: it ended up being this timeless classic where I think
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: if you sat down and said I'm going to draw
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: a timeless classic, now, you wouldn't. You can't just make that,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, that's public. The public has to see
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: it that way.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: This is so cool about the story. A lot of
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: these things are just happening all at the right time,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: right place, right time. Things just all falling into place
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: for Rush. All right, so let's get into the concept,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: and you lead the chapter on the album concept with quote, so,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: what the hell was the twenty one to twelve story
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: about anyway, Now, for somebody hearing it for the first time,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: what is the core story Rush are telling in twenty
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: one twelve.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Well, it is the year twenty one to twelve, fifty
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: years after a galactic war, sorry, intergalactic war, and the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: planet Megadon or that might be the city I'm sorry, Megadon.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Apologies is basically under the tyrannical rule of the priests
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: of the Temples of Syrinx, who dictate basically everything. Basically
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: it's modeled after Soviet Russia, where you know, there was
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: you know, state sanctioned art, state sanctioned music, the state
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: gave you your job, don't really have much choice in
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: anything that happened. And I'm Rand was from that's you know,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: that's that's how she came up, and so she was
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: naturally distrustful of that sort of thing. And you know,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: she wrote a story that Neil felt he should acknowledge
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: because it was like thematically similar. But if you read
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: the novella that it's based on, which is called Anthem,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: and you know, which they took for their label name.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And there's a song Anthem.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: And that, yeah, and that has some of the most
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Randian lyrics you're ever going to hear, but you know,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: but he felt like, you know, yeah, but you know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: I'm doing this story of like the individual against the state,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: and I should just credit her because that's sort of
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: where I got the idea from. But the stories are
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: not really the same. The the I'm rand story goes
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: way off in this other direction. But one of the
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: things I like so much about the twenty one to
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: twelve suite, and that I think is so great, is
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: that in the lyrics, they don't really they don't really
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: get into a lot of detail about everything that's going
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: on in this kind of like police state. They leave
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: a lot of that up to your imagination. And furthermore,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: there's diary entries from the narrator of the story that
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: are not in the music. You have to read them
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: and they go along with the songs. But even with
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: all that, it still leaves you, the listener with some
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: wiggle room in imagining a lot of it. He leaves
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of it up to you to put together
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: what happened. Like, you know, even the ending, which to
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: me sounds like the end of the world. A lot
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: of people have interpreted as a positive ending and optimism,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: you know, but they don't really tell you. And Neil
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: in the way he wrote the lyrics and all of
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: it there, it's not just beating you over the head
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: with like message message. They still are leaving a lot
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: of it up to you to interpret it the way
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: you want to. Yeah, yeah, you know, And I mean
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: that to me, that's just the mark of a great storyteller,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: to say nothing of a great lyricist and a great
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: musician and all just just having the idea of like,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: let's not be totally explicit about everything. Let's let the
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: listener let their mind work a little bit in this too.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Well. Who are what do the priests of the Temples
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: of Syrinx represent?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I think that they just are are basically a symbol
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: of authority. And whoever you are and whatever you're doing
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: in life, there will always be someone trying to push
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: you around and tell you what to do. That can
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: be the state, or that can be your mother, that
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: can be your girlfriend. You know, there's there's always someone
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: somewhere in your life who wants to be an authority
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: and tell you what to do. And really, for me,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: the priests are just a stand in for that, and
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you know, really the theme is just about you know,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: being yourself the individual despite you know, what's going on
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: in the world around you, and not being distracted by
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: all that and being authentically yourself.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Is the hero discovering music really about art or individuality itself?
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean again, it's both, you know. You know,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: he discovers this thing. He thinks it's wonderful. Oh my god,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I cannot wait to show them this strange
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: device that I have found. He thinks it's wonderful. The
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: state does not. And so right there there's tension between
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: what he is and individual wants and what he is
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: allowed to want. Uh. Oh, there's one thing in the
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: story anthem that I thought was great, where if you
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: want something that's different from what the state wants from you,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: they call it a transgression of preference. So like like
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: they would pick out a spouse for you, who you're
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: supposed to meete with for life. But in the story,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: he meets this other he falls in love with this
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: other woman, and to the state, that's a transgression of preference,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: which is that that's that's wild, you know, that's a
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: but if you've ever had anyone, uh, you know, if
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: you've ever had someone like say something kind of crappy
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: to you and you respond with like, that's not cool.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: You know, don't don't say that to me. How can
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: you talk that way to me? And they go like, what,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: you're too sensitive? Oh yeah, it's it's it's kind of
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: in a way, the priests of the Temples of Seyrings
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: are the forces of gas lighting in some ways, the
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: ultimate narcissistic abuser in some ways. And you know, the theme,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you know for me is okay, then how do you
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: function authentically as an individual in the face of that?
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: The story is left up to you enough that you
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: can make a more sort of individual interpretation like that,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: where if it was more explicit, I don't know if
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I could say that, But they leave enough room for
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the listener's interpretation that you can come away with, you know,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: pretty much anything like I'm at I'm at culinary school,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: and you know, my teacher says I use too much
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: red pepper. I love red pepper. You know, there's any
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: context you want, you know, where there's someone trying to
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: tell you what to do. That is a very compelling
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: twenty minutes of music.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Are there colleges that have classes of courses on this album.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: There should be no though.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: There's one guy named Darrell Bowman who wrote his master's
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: thesis on the music of Rush, and I was really
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: surprised that he's like one of there's a few people
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: who have done that, because and I think their music
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: absolutely would hold up in any kind of an academic setting.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely yes.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: But the you know, the problem is the you know,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: the respect problem and this music isn't cool problem and
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: why can't you people listen to Bob Dylan problem? Yeah,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: because Russia are not cool.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I was about to say, though, you could. You could
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: study this music or these lyrics every bit as much
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: as you can study Bob Dylan's. It's just totally different
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: subject matter, but still as just as brilliant, fascinating. How
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: much of the story reflects the mindset of Rush at
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: that moment in their career.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, they've I mean they've always said that, you know
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: the reason, and you know, they think like part of
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: the reason the album came out as well as it did,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: you know, because they did feel like the story sort
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: of reflected what they were going through. You know, like
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I said earlier, maybe a little too much has been
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: made of the record company being the priests of the
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Temples of seyrings to them. But you know, I mean,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: if you're an artist, you want to make art the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: way you want to make it, and then when someone
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: comes along to say, we need you to change this
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: about it so we can sell it. For a lot
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: of creative people that that that's a real problem. They
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: have real issues with that. I don't because I have
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: no ethics and no morals, but for a lot of
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: no but for a lot of artists, it's like they're
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: going to make what they're going to make, and they
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: do not take kindly to being told you need to
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: change this, and they certainly don't take kindly to having
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the record cover changed unilaterally by by the label.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: But you know they've they've said in the past.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Part of why the album worked as well as it
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: did is because it really aligned with what they were
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: going through at the time. Alex Wifson called it their
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: protest album, you know, and you can and it's it's angry.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: It's an angry album. You can hear that in it,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: and you know, I think that's also part of why
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: it connects as well as it does, Where the previous three.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Maybe hadn't is because it just really jumps off the vinyl.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: You can really feel it. Yeah, you know, it just
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: it just comes across as authentically emotional and like, Wow,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: these guys are talking about real stuff. Yeah, it's I
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: could go on and on.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Oh he and I could listen to you talk about
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: it all night. This is a fascinating topic. Daniel Buckspan
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: is the author of Rush in twenty one twelve fifty years.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: All right, let's get into the songs now, the music.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about the lyrical content. That opening
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: suite is the centerpiece of the album. There is the
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: influence of the Who's Tom You mentioned that there are
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: classical influences, classic Hollywood film, sci fi TV, Twilight Zone
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: being a big one. Is the suite written like a
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: rock song expanded or more like a classical composition broken
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: into movements?
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: A little of both? I mean, they, in my opinion,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: they probably could have gotten away with just doing it
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: as like seven songs, you know, with space between them,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: like that probably would have worked. But you know, I
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: think what you've got there in that suite is songs
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: sort of put together in a more sort of classical
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: symphonic format with movements, but you are not necessarily stuck
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: with listening to it that way. Like, if you want
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: to listen to it as like twenty minutes of great songs,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: that's there too. Absolutely you can totally, you know, come
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: away from it that way if you want to. But
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: there's a flow to it, you know, and there's sort
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: of you get the feeling as you're going through it,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: like you know, this could work as just individual songs,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: but there's this through line going through the whole thing
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: that really gives it momentum, and you know what I mean.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but to me, that's like
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: the fastest twenty minutes I've ever heard in my life.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: You know, it goes right by Oh yeah, yep. I
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: don't feel like that's a twenty minute song at all,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: maybe six minutes tops, you know. But I think that
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: just has something to do with just how well it's constructed,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: and how well they use time, and how well they
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: use the space between the songs and just all just
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: it's just so expertly made that it's it's really hard
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: to come up to come up with twenty minutes where
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: you want to hear the whole thing. Even if you're
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: talking about just a regular record, Think of how many
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: records you have where you know, you've got side one,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: you know, five songs, two of them are good, you know,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: So you just in that alone of having you know,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: one album side of music that you don't want to
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: skip anything that already is a little amazing that they
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: accomplished that, but that that it feels like a consistent
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: story that you're sort of brought along with the whole
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: time that I mean, you're not going to get too
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: many of those from anybody, even yes, could only manage
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I think two of those, and they specialized in twenty
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: minute songs, you know.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: The book Down Rock podcast is part of the Boneless
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: podcasting Network. If you're a fan of classic rock and
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: classic film like I, go to Boneless dot lovable dot
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: app to find over twenty great shows there that's Boneless
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: dot lovable dot app, or just go to booked on
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: rock dot com the Boneless podcasting network. It is what
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: you want to be listen with confidence. You're right. Qute
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: it from Ricury Records wanted a single off of twenty
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: one to twelve, a standalone forty five RPM featuring just
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: the Temples of Syrinx might have done the job nicely.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I believe that was released as a single with twilight Zone.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Those are the two singles.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I think it was together with Overture. Yeah wait, you
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: know which, honestly, if you want to get the point
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: across about that record that, you know, Overture Temples of
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Syrinx is probably a good way, you know, if you
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: want to just or give someone orientation.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so I was wondering did that isolation to
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: help introduce listeners to the band? Did it? Or did
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: it strip away the context of the the whole piece?
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: But I don't think so.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know how much singles at that
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: time really did the many good, you know, I mean,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: because I think most of the audience for that record
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: came they walked into the record store, they saw that
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: cool cover, and they were like, I want to listen
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: to the whole thing, and it rewarded listening to the
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: whole thing. And I don't know that, you know. I mean,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: I've always just been very skeptical about the idea that
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: they ever needed singles, and they didn't even really have
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: one until New World Man in nineteen eighty two. But
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: even that, you know, they put it out as a
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: single like kind of because they had to and it
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: was under four minutes, and sure, why not and it
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: ended up working. But they never wrote music that way,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: and they never wrote music like here's the single. You know,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: it wasn't just Temples of Syrings. I mean, you know,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Mercury tried. I put it in the book. They made
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: the sampler for radio called Everything You Ever Wanted to
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Play by Rush But Were Afraid To. I think that
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: was what the title was, and it was like all
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: their most like sort of radio friendly songs. I don't
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: know that it did them a bit of good because
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: they really just built their reputation on the road and
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: with these very interesting albums that were good all the
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: way through. And I don't I don't know that they
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: really attracted a singles audience, Like I just I don't
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: think that's what they what the audience wanted.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe the eighties more, Well that's.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: MTV, if you want my honest opinion, and.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: That that's a whole that's a whole separate thing. But
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean MTV for a lot of artists,
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: they said that basically had the effect of making them
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: write singles that they had to also attach a very
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: expensive movie to. I don't know how much good that
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: did them either, you know, although I will say I
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: discovered Rush because of the video for just an early.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Warning, So wow, really okay? Yeah? Yeah, FM Radio FM
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Rock Radio embraced Russiaman. They always supported the band, at
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: least I know growing up around here in Connecticut. They
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: played Rush all the time, still.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Do, yeah, But it never had anything to do with
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: singles that they might have released. In fact, I could see,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: you know, some coked up DJ looking at side one.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh wow, all off twenty one twelve is
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: twenty minutes. I can do a lot. I can do
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of blowing back while this is playing, you know.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you're old enough to remember when
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: radio stations would play perfect album sides.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I myself played it as a DJ. We used
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: to do a lot. Ye IL used to do a lot.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. We used to do longest the shortest song
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: in twenty one to twelve. I'd be on Friday nights
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: six pm was the start of my shift, and we
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: would start off the weekend with my shift, and there
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: was twenty one to twelve. I'm like not complaining there, yeah, yeah, And.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: I mean it's it's not laziness on the part of
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: the DJ to put that on. It's like, that's just
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: good music that people want to hear. It is a
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: perfect album side, just as it is, you know, as
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: they presented. I don't know that that song specifically led
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: to FM radio stations playing perfect albums, like most most
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: of the time they would play dark side of the
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Moon is what I remember, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: And if you flip over twenty one twelve, there's another
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: perfect album side right there, so.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, and that's the other thing. That's why I
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: want to go next, is it? Sometimes I forget like
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: the whole album is a concept album. No, it's one
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: side concept album, the first side, but then the second side.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: You're right, quote twenty one to twelve. It's frequently called
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: the concept album, but that's not accurate in the strictest
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: sense of the term. None of the five songs on
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: its second side are related to the story on the
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: first A passage to Bangkok, a fun contrast, counterculture humor
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: and epic musical inspiration. The lyrics it'spired by a well
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: known magazine among pot smokers. While the music inspired by
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: a Zeppelin song, could you talk about that?
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Alex Lifson said, the music was inspired by Kashmir by
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: led Zeppelin, and I think that song influenced a lot
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: of musicians at the time who are like, we need
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: our own eight minute Middle Eastern epic, you know, like Stargazer.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Excuse Me by Rainbow is like perfect example of something
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: like that. The passage to Bangkok is non Nateman. You know,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: it's short, it's not a Nate minute song, but it's
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: in this more you know it. It has more exotic
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: melody and that sort of so it's a It presents
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: this kind of melodic break from what was on twenty
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: one to twelve because it doesn't really repeat what you
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: heard there. It's in a kind of a different vein.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: And I feel like most of what is there on
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: side two functions. It's sort of a tonic for listening
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: to side one. Like you went through all that heavy stuff,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: you know, you internalized all these deep concepts. Flip it over.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Here's a song about smoking pot. Here's a song about
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: watching TV, you know, the Twilight Zone, and it's like
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: an answer to what was on side one. I also
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: believe that Something for Nothing, which ends the record in
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways, sort of sums up thematically what
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: twenty one to twelve is about, because that's another song
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: that's about what, you know, the individual against conformity, but
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: just informed in it form. But it's the same idea,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: and they're you know, they're really in my opinion, just
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: tying it up beautifully at the end with that, like
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: that's the perfect little bow that they put on it.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that magazine, by the way, high High Times.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, which very popular.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Well known, I think, or they still around.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: High Times they shut down two years ago.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, just two years ago?
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, but I mean nobody buys print magazines anymore, so.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: I think maybe they transitioned over to a website or.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Something they did, But I think they for what they
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: just had a hard time. I don't know. Everyone smokes
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: pot now and it's legal in a lot of places,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: so you don't really need High Times.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Who was the big big pot smoker in the band?
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Was it?
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Alex?
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Getty described Alex as a huge, massive pot smoker. All
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: three of them smoked, but Getty gave it up. I
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: think he said in the early eighties and Neil I
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: think gave it up around then to I think Alex
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: still smokes pot to this day. And he said, like
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: one time he did ecstasy, and you know, so he
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: is maybe a little bit more of a dabbler. But
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: he also said, like, you can't really smoke pot and
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: be in the studio because you're going to sound like
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: crap and be sloppy and you're not going to want
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: to keep anything you record, right, So you know I
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: mean that, Yes, yes he likes it, but he smokes responsibly.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: He does what I'm trying to say.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: All Right, Thanks so much for checking out the Booked
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: on Rock podcast. If you've just found the podcast, welcome.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: If you've been listening, thank you so much for your support,
• 45:22
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• 45:24
  Speaker 2: share on social media and let people know about Booked
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: on Rock, And if you do like the podcast, make
• 45:30
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• 45:33
  Speaker 2: listen to the Booked on Rock podcast, run Amazon, Apple, iHeart, Spotify, Spreaker,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: tune in, and on YouTube music. You can check out
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel find it
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: to the show, all right, Twilight Zone is one of
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: my all time favorite shows. I've seen every episode at
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: least like twenty five thirty, if not fifty times, and
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: maybe even more. I just I watch him all the time,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: so I can't not love this song. Two episodes of
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: the series provide the source material for the lyrics, which is,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: will the Real Martian please stand up and stop over
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: in a quiet town? Yeah? That the first one, Will
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: the Real Martian Please Stand Up? Is one of my
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: favorite episodes period. How much did Rod Serling's storytelling style
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: influence the band's lyrical approach overall, not just with this song?
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: They said, you know, they the three of them just
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: loved that.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Show and like anti authority, you know, that's that was
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: big with Rod Serling.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean he was he was really questioning you know,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: not just not just authority, but you know, people's attitudes
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: like that. He wanted to do a lot of stuff
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: with racial content, and that's when he was just a
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: scriptwriter before he had the show, and a lot of
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: you know, like the networks and the higher ups just
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: they didn't want to touch it. They didn't want to
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: go near it. And you know he laments did that,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: you know, because he was working in TV and you
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: know the context of that, he was not able to
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: really take things where he wanted to because there were
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: there were just things that you know, in nineteen sixty
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: people just didn't want to hear about that. They still
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: don't want to hear about them now sometimes, you know,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: but at the time it was just really restrictive.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: But look, he outsmarted the television networks by by placing
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: it inside of a silly concept of like, you know,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: these funny looking martians with one eye. Yeah, but there
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: was so much more to it.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Well. Geene Roddenberry did that too with Star Trek. Right,
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: there's one very famous episode where there's these two people
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: and one of them like the left side of his
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: face is white and the right side is black, and
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: the other person it's reversed, and they have just based
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: on that, you know, they have just hatred for each other.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: And you know what I mean, he's talking. You know,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: you don't have to dig too deep to see what
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: he's talking about, but you had to at that time
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: really kind of disguise what you were saying. In order
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: for the message to get across. Uh, sort of like
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: how Rob Halford had to do songs like eat Me Alive,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: uh to get you know, his homo erotic context across
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: without actually overtly saying so.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Which I don't think anybody got until he came out.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: How How is that possible? How is that possible? I
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: was talking on mixtapes. I was talking about that with
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: them too. It's like, look at a picture of him,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: what's wrong with you?
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: But no, but rush, Rush, We're in like, you know,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: certainly in a better situation than that by the seventies,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: but they, you know, but you still come up against
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm the artist. I want this to come
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: out this way, and there are peop well meddling.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: It wasn't as restrictive as what Rod Serling faced. Uh.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: But you know, also, but they they weren't as topical
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: at the time anyway.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Like they didn't have any songs at the time about racism.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: They didn't have any songs at the time about feminism.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: You know, they didn't go there. But I don't know,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I feel I feel like what they were saying about,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: you know, be yourself first and foremost, be authentic, be
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: true to yourself in a way is kind of an
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: umbrella for a lot of those issues, because you know,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: whatever your political issue is, whatever your thing is, you're
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: you're going to face opposition, what you know, whatever you know,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: like I don't know, Like like let's say you you
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: really support a capital gains tax cut, Like let's say
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: that's your political thing. You will meet people who don't
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: think that's a good idea. And wherever you go in life,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: what you know, just liking Rush, you're going to face opposition.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And so really, really, to me, it's an album about
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: like you're going You're going to face authority, figures, you're
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: going to face conflict, you're all of that. How do
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: you get right within yourself to be able to withstand
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: all that? To me, that's really what I take away
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: from it.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: That's the message. Yeah. Yeah, half the world is one
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: of my favorite There you go no matter where you are,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: the other half is is is going to be there.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And and so what do you do?
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: What is the best way to operate? Uh? You know?
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I mean for me, writing has been just how I
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: deal with and process a lot of what's going on
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: around me and how I center myself and how I
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: focus myself. That's the thing that I do. You know,
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: when the when the world is scary or doing stuff
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: I don't like, I can always lose myself in my writing.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: That's it. Same with me with a podcast and reading
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: these books by all these great authors like yourself, and yeah,
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: I mean it, it gives you everything falls by the wayside.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it gives you a nice little respite from all
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: that all that crap, the madness, the madness. Yeah, you know,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I just feel like as
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: long as you're cool within yourself and comfortable with yourself,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: then you're in a better position to deal with whatever
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: is going to come your way, and things are going
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: to come your way. Uh, you know, I think twenty
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: one twelve. I don't think it suggests either that you're
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: ever going to defeat that, or that you're or that
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: you know there will ever be an end to crappy circumstances.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: That's the message of Buddhism, right, that accept thing is
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: that there's good, there's bad. They're always going to be there.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I am not religious or spiritual in any way,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: but you know, one of the things I took from
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: the eaching is that it's basically saying you have all
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: this energy out there. Sometimes there's too much, so when
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: bad things happen, it has to be corrected. And what
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: you go through in life that's negative is really just
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: energy being corrected because it's out of balance. And again
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: you look at that and it's like, okay, well then
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: what does that mean for me as the individual? And
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: the lesson again is just be right within yourself and
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: sure of how you want to be, and when these
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: corrections happen, you know, just hang on and you know,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: be the best you you can be.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: And Lessons is the next song. Yeah, perfect segue. Alex
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: Leison wrote the music and lyrics to Lessons. You write
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: a bookquote less Since it is one of two songs
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: on twenty one to twelve with music and lyrics written
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: entirely by a single band member, that song and the
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Leapend Tears which follows this represented the first two times
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: this had ever occurred in Rush history, and it never
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: happened again. Well, personal message do you think Alex is
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: expressing in Lessons?
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I have my own theory about it, which is not
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: supported by any evidence, but it seems that way to me.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: There is this documentary that he appears in as a
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: seventeen year old and at one point in it, he's
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: at a table talking to his father saying that he
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: wants to drop out of school and just play music
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: full time. And his father, I wouldn't say, like necessarily
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: ways into him, but his father makes some kind of
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: hurtful comments that you can just see on Alex's face
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: that it kind of wounded him. And to me, that
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: part of the song when Gedty is singing you didn't
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: listen again, and Alex is right behind him, you know,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: doubling those notes on his guitar. To me, in my opinion,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: that's him talking to his father. That's him saying to
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: his father, you didn't listen again.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I may be completely wrong about that. I may
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: be just projecting one.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: That's your interpretation of it.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know they rush have again been kind
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: enough to write it in a way that if that's
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: your interpretation, then that's your interpretation and they're not going
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: to come correct you or anything like that.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Tears feels unusually vulnerable. What side of Geddy Lee are
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: we seeing here?
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Specifically? Just he he loved his wife and didn't want
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: to be away from her all the time touring, and
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: it's it's really about that, and just what a hard
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: time he had, you know, finding balance, you know, because
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, especially at that time. You know, if you're
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: a touring musician, you're gone three hundred days out of
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: the year. You are not at home, you know. And
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: he talked about some stretches that they did where they
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: would have like twenty nights in a row. It was crazy.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: And I can just see how in the middle of
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: all of that, all you want is just to be
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: in some kind of familiar surroundings with people you love
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: and just to stay there for a little bit and
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: maybe get some quiet too while you're at it, you know.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, this was everything they were
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: working for, and this was everything they wanted. So like,
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: you know, on the one hand, all their dreams are
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: coming true and they're getting more popular and the seats
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: are filling and all that sort of thing, but he
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: misses his wife. And it's just as simple as that.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: As you know, I have these two things in my
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: life that I treasure. How do I balance them? How
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: do I make it so that I you know, I
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: am getting everything I want out of my music career
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: and achieving all the goals that I want and still
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: you know, having uh, you know, a fulfilling relationship with
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: my wife.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Very anti rock star.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean all three of them were, you know,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: they they were you know, I mean, I think if
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: they weren't in an industry that requires that you have
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: to tour, I think they would have been perfectly happy
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: to be like stay at home dudesh Neil, especially because
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: he could get even more reading done that way.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there will be a rush the dirt movie lifestyle.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: And even if even if they put it out, you'll
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: be flipping through it like where where is it? Where
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: the dirt? Looking for They're just they weren't like that,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: you know that Their priority, and so much of what
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: I love about them was just the music. That's it.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: That's all they wanted to be judged on. That that
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: was the standard, and I think they felt like everything
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: that was not the music was just kind of like extra.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: And they didn't you know, I mean, I know they
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: didn't like doing videos, but they felt like they had
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: to because that's that was just a demand of the
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: industry at the time. But to them, it just it
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: had nothing to do with what they were interested in,
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: which was finding you know, cool new sounds and how
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: can we push what we do. You know, that's that's
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: what they wanted, That's what that's what they wanted to do.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: But you know that that maybe you know, twenty one
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: to twelve probably even applied to them ten years later,
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: you know, during like the Power Windows zero, when you
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: know it's all synthesizers and they've got videos on MTV
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: and they're doing a lot of stuff, I mean with
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: the video specifically, and dressing a certain way and all
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: that that I cannot imagine was their idea. You know,
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: I just don't think they care about that at all.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: They cared about the music, They cared about writing the
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: best song, they cared about the sound of it and everything.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: But I think they felt like everything, like all the
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: stardom stuff. I think they just had no use for
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: that at all.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: And I wonder if it was an exchange between them
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: and the Lele. You guys will let you do whatever
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: you want musically, but you got to just help this
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: out here. Just dress up in these fancy schmancy outfits
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: and poof your hair up a little bit and do
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: some videos for us.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Once, once you get to a certain level of success,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: you know, and they certainly reached it with moving pictures,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: you just get a lot of people, like industry people
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: whispering in your ear that you have to do this
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: and you have to do this, and you can sit
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: there and be like, all of that is ridiculous. But
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: there will be so much of it. There will be
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: so much of that unsolicited advice that I think eventually
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: it'll just wear you down to the point where you're like,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: all right, fine, I'll wear the big shoulder pads. Can
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: you just go away now?
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I think some decisions that they made in their
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: later years may have been Okay, fine, we'll do that.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Just shut up. It just stopped talking to us.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And then once they got out of that decade
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: the eighties, they could just go back to being what
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: they really wanted to be, you know. They kind of
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: get that sense in the nineties. So you did talk
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: about the last song something for Nothing, perfect way to
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: end the album. It's about self determination. I mean, this
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: is again what we're talking about right now. This is
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: already what we're discussing here. But if you want something,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: you got to go out and make it happen. Yeah,
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: is this the thesis statement that explains everything the album
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: is trying to say? Like you say, it wraps everything
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: up perfectly.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: I kind of feel like it, you know. I mean,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: there's this, I've said this on many podcasts. I'm going
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: to repeat myself. I am sorry. There's that bit of lair.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: It's there. What you own is your own kingdom. What
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: you do is your own glory, what you love is
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: your own power, what you live is your own story.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: That is the twenty one to twelve story right there.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: And those are just four lines of lyrics that I
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: have taken for myself as this is how I'm going
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: to live. This is how I'm going to live my life.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: And part of what that means is you are on
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: your own. You know. One thing that Neil said about
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: it that I thought was very interesting is, you know,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: there's the line in it you can't have freedom for
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: free and freedom. I think a lot of us interpret
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: that word as like we can do anything, free candy
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: for everybody, do whatever you want. But freedom is also
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: there's like the comforts of home are not there. The
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: independence is very lonely and if you're fighting for the
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: freedom to be yourself, You're going to be alone in
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: that fight. So, I mean, they've really demonstrates like it's
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: a double edged sword. But if it's important to you
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: to live authentically and do what matters to you, you
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: must you will bear that, and you'll be you will
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: be willing to kind of go through the loneliness and
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: the feeling of like, is anyone going to help me?
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: If it's important enough, if the goal is important enough,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, just and just for me. Those lyrics have
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: so much meaning and have guided me for decades, and
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I you know, I mean, like right now, what I'm doing,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: just trying to make a living as a writer is
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: very much informed by those lyrics because it also sort
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: of frees me from having to say, like, if I
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: sell I don't know, one hundred thousand copies, then I'm
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: a writer, and that's sort of looking for validation from
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: the outside world. Those lyrics say, no, you're a writer
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: because you say you're a writer, and that's enough. So
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: go do it and do the best you can. Uh,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: you know, and you're you're you're doing it right now
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: with your show. You know, you're this matters to you.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: And you're I'm assuming not getting million dollar checks every day.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Nope, just breaking even at the end of myne I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: got a day job. This is what I do when
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: I come home after work. But sometimes I'll get caught
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: up in the numbers and then I'm like, wait a minute.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, but it matters to you, and that's
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: the point. You wouldn't do it if it didn't. And
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sure in the back of your mind there's even
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: the thought of like, I may this may never get
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: past the break even point, but I will still do
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: it because this means everything to me.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nothing's going to stop you.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: No, not if it matters uh not. If you love
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: what you do, uh And if you if you commit
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: yourself to loving to doing what you love it, then
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: it's easy and then it's not a decision. It's just
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: that's that's the north star. That's what we follow.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Find the bookdown Rock website at bookednrock dot com. Therein
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: can find all the back episodes of the show, the
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: latest episode in video and audio, links to all of
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: the platforms where you can listen to the podcast, plus
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: all the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: TikTok and x. Also check out the booked on Rock blog,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: find your local independent bookstore, find out all the latest
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: hot rockbook releases, and before you go, check out the
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: booked on Rock online store. Pick up some booked on
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Rock merch. It's all at booked on rock dot com.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: Last question, if you had to explain to a young
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: listener why twenty one to twelve still matters fifty years later,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: what would you tell them?
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't Actually, I would just put it on and
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: let them just hear it. And usually by the time
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: it gets to that bid in overture, that's uh. It's
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: an acoustic It's like a rhythm acoustic guitar, guitar going.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: There are so many people I've seen hear that for
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: the first time and just their eyes bug.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Out game you're in.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: You can just see their soul.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the club exactly.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: And if you just get them to that point, they'll fit.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: They'll find the rest on their own, and it is
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: set up for them to find the rest on their own.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: I also know as a father that if you tell
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: any young person anything, uh, they will ignore you and
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: wait for one of their friends to tell them, so
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: their friends should explain to them why it's an important album.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: I can just sell them in the first two minutes.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: That's about it.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you can go out and get this
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: book as well. It's it's is it out now? March
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: tens real Estate, So that's tomorrow. We're recording this on
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: March the night, So when this is out, it'll already
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: already have been out for a few days. Get it
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: wherever you get your books, Amazon.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: Or fine books are sold.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Fine books are sold. We want to thank Motor Books
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: and Steve Roth as always for setting this up. And
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: where can people reach out and talk to you Daniel about.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my main website. My website is notorious buk dot com.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: My favorite website name ever.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you. And I'm on Facebook and Instagram under my
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: own name, and yeah, normal channels like that. You will
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: not find me on Twitter, okay or x or whatever
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: they're calling it these days, all right, but I'm in
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: all the other normal channels awesome.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: So and you got some things in the works, I'm assuming.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have another book coming out this year on
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: November tenth, I believe the release date, Heavy Metals Big Four.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: It's about Metallica Anthrax Slayer and Mega Death Okay, and
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: uh I have something after that too, but I'm not
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: yet at liberty to say what that is.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I will keep the podcast going just at least
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: long enough to have you back on again for both
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: of them.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: There's there's stuff in the Big Four book that I
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: cannot wait to discuss. Yeah, cool, cannot wait?
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: Cool? Yeah that well, well we'll be in touch on
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: that one, so I look forward. We'll have you back
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: on again for that.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, uh, well, we'll make sure you get a book, absolutely,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: all
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Right, Daniel, Daniel bucks Man, thanks so much, man, thank
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: you very much,