Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 82: Barry Squires - Navigating the Shift from Football Fields to Sports Administration Leadership

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82: Barry Squires - Navigating the Shift from Football Fields to Sports Administration Leadership · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: when I was a young teenager, realizing that few of my friends were in academies.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: They had contracts and for me, I wasn't in that environment, I wasn't in that situation.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: I was in an academy, at AFC Bournemouth.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: But there was that realization, I think, and also being a parent, for them informing me look, I don't think you're going to make it, but you're doing well, which is great, and we're doing everything else.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: But they gave me the choice to really, I guess, self assess myself.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: But I had that support from the right coaches and the parents and from those who were in academies.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I could see the pressures on the training, the pressures, unfortunately, on their education at the time, because the player support wasn't there the travel, the commitments, their friendships, their lifestyle, they didn't have the ability to do certain things, whereas I value those more.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: So I realized that at a fairly young age and probably I just wasn't talented enough.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Let's be honest, you've got to be open and honest with yourself, hi.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I'm Ryan God Salvers, and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Elite athletes are still people afterwards.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Today's guest is Barry Squires.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Barry started English University Sport as a footballer, playing for their national squads for four years while a student at Portsmouth University.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: After finishing uni, he devoted his career to coaching and promoting sports and sports development in higher education.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Today, he's the chair of the English University Sports Association, an organization that creates opportunities for competitive sport for university athletes.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: He is also the head of sport at Brighton University, a multi-campus university in England, where he supports and manages competitive and non-competitive sports activity.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Barry, welcome to the show.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Ryan.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Pleasure to be here.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Great, I am really looking forward to the conversation that we're going to have today.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Usually, I speak with athletes all over the world who compete at the highest levels.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: What really inspires me to chat with you today is, I guess, the reformatting of that speaking to you who's played at the highest level English universities and really want to pick up out what that experience was like for you, what that transition came across to get you into your position where you are today.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: It's great to be considered in that eco-spirited environment.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I haven't been called an athlete for a very, very long time.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I now just support and lead a team who support student athletes.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: It's been a real interesting journey and one that, for me, I've continued to learn along the way.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: I think if you stop learning, then that's the first failure point for anyone, because you will have the highs, the falls, especially within sport and football.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Dealing with success, dealing with failure.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: You learn from that.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: For me, education was always the platform that I reverted back to.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: My young age was guided by my parents to ensure I had that as an underpinning that.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: However my sporting career went, education was key to be able to then transition into another career path.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: That's really good.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I think there was a excellent fundamental values to live by.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I talk a lot about athletes having this love of learning, always learning, be it tactics, be it strategies from opposition, but then also learning as an individual, because you're always wanting to better yourself and move to that next frontier.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: basically, yeah, absolutely.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: We do a lot within outreach and schools.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Now Everyone wants to be, especially females as well.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Now they want to be a pro footballer they see what's in the media limelight, but that's 1%, and then 99% of others who may or may not make it get a contract but also to widen their aspirations.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: That it's not just about being a pro player footballer in this instance, on the pitch.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Think around everything else within that environment from the stadium, the tourism, the security, the hospitality, the transport, the performance analysis, the video analysis.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: There is so much more involved in sport as an industry.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: For me, it's around raising aspirations of some of those other areas that the youngsters don't see, and it's educating them that it's not just becoming a footballer.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: There are so many more opportunities along that journey if you don't make it to make sure that they have that guidance to then make an informed decision.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is again.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: That's just great.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: I clearly kicked off the conversation really well, but before we go too far, I suppose for those who don't know, you just tell me introduce yourself.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: But just let me know what is it you're doing today?
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Where have you got to?
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I am now, as you sort of introduced me at start, head of sport at the University of Brighton.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I have the responsibility for everything sport, physical activity and well-being across our campuses.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: We have a team of around 22, 23, four times staff.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: You have your fitness instructors, your operational teams, your head coaches of all the university sport.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: So we call it Brighton Panthers here.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: That's our identity.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: For performance sport.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: We have Panthers Play, which is all of the social sport, so engaging that wider student population, and it's a fantastic role, absolutely enjoying my time within education.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: It's been very good to me.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: So an opportunity to give back Outside of my role here at the University of Brighton.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I am chair of English University Sport.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: So I came through as a student playing for English universities, had trials for GB, didn't make it but actually then got into coaching and I was coaching with the English University Women's side as an assistant coach and just that environment really inspired me to give back but also still be there, have that ability to engage in that environment.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: And then around five years ago the opportunity came up to be chair of the association and really resurrected and provide opportunities for students to put that England shirt on.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: You know, for me, a shirt is a shirt until a player wears it.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Then it becomes something very different.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: There's a value to it, the emotions and everything.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: So we have six program pathways and any English university can nominate their students to trial out to represent England.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And then we have fixtures against pro academies and also home nations against other nations Scotland, wales, you know, Northern Ireland.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So that's my main sort of roles, as well as still trying to kick a ball around the park now at 41 and coaching my kids in the local sort of club setup here.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: So that's what I'm doing now and it's been a long journey.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: That's really good.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: So, listen, you're actually in a role or two roles that I never really knew existed when I was looking enough to get the chance to shift and move into, I guess, do my degree, huddersfield University there's a shout out to everybody there, but at university I've heard this field heading up there and I never thought that there was head of sport.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I never even knew about this.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: You know opportunity to go and play at that level.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Is this a new thing?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Has it always been there?
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's always been there.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: But it's one of those things you don't realise until you actually look into it.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: You know everyone played schools football, even played college football, and that represented development there.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: But then, once you've got to university, I was aware at that age I wasn't going to make it, you know, and I had, I think, that maturity level, fortunately with those around me who guided me.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Look, education is important, you need to get that and I could play on the side.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: But once you got to university, there is such a variation, one in in the quality, and also there's over 100, I think it's about 137 universities within British universities and college sports structure.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Here there is such a wide variation.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: We have 36 sports that represent the university every Wednesday so they'll travel around the southeast and nationally.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Many institutions that you know.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: The bigger institutions will have 40 or 50 or 60, plus all the individual athletes.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: So there is a huge variety of opportunity for students whilst they are attending university to get their academic degree, either their undergraduate or postgraduate, and it's all around supporting students, providing those opportunities and extracurricular activities.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: And I had, when I was at Portsmouth, started.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: You know, go along to the trials.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: You travel around and my head of sport at the time was actually our football coach.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: So I quickly became someone who, as I, saw this role model, you know, and he supported me getting my coaching badges to delivering back into the communities around the University of Portsmouth.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: But he was a role model for me and I'm still in touch with him.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Now he's based up in Scotland.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: That was the first time I actually saw a position after I actually that I would really like to become that and there was someone I could learn from through that process and through my time when I was a student.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Take me back to that point.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Let me just understand what sport was for you and sort of your journey.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I know you're representing or playing at these levels across the University, getting semi-pro.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: What was sport for you growing up and through university?
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sport was always ingrained in me, I think since a young age, and again, that's the parental influence.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: My dad played semi-pro and I think that the analogy of the parents always want their kids to succeed where they didn't, he was very sort of pushed me in that direction of football.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: But actually they gave me the opportunity to do other sports.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: So I was playing county tennis, doing athletics, because I had that speed and they never said, right, it's one sport or nothing.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: They gave me the opportunity to experience multiple sports.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: So I think that's one reason why I never made it as a footballer.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: But actually the transferable skills I got from playing multiple sports as you well know, there is a value in that as far as those personal skills, those motor abilities.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: So that was my grounding and underpinning in sport, I guess for me, was my safe place.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I wasn't that strong academically through my school and education.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: It was that sport gave me that confidence.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Sport gave me the ability to express myself and I think that's where, really, where I developed as a person through sport from a young age all the way through to university.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, wow.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: And when did the dream of not becoming a professional footballer sink in?
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: I think it was probably the years when I was a young teenager, realising that few of my friends were in academies.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: They had contracts and for me, I wasn't in that environment, I wasn't in that situation.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: I was in an academy at AFC Bournemouth.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: But there was that realisation, I think, and also being a parent, for them informing me look, I don't think you're going to make it, but you're doing well, which is great, and we're doing everything else.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: But they gave me the choice to really, I guess, self assess myself.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: But I had that support from the right coaches and the parents and from those who were in academies.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: I could see the pressures on the training, the pressures, unfortunately, on their education at the time, because the player support wasn't there, the travel, the commitments, their friendships, their lifestyle, they didn't have the ability to do certain things whereas I valued those more.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: So I realised that at a fairly young age and probably I just wasn't talented enough.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Let's be honest, you've got to be open and honest with yourself.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: So then education was the guide for me.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: I was able to go to a university I was living in Bournemouth able to go to university at Portsmouth, able to still play semi-professional was at Chichester City, and then I undertook all my coaching badges.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: So I think it was a very quick learning curve for me, whereas many athletes who come into that environment learn at a later stage and then have to deal with that transition, which is very difficult.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is very difficult.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And so for you, though you you know, recognising at an early age, you recognise that at least you've found a way to continue to be involved in sport by, well, still pursuing semi-professionally, but also taking the coaching badges that open up other opportunities in terms of coaching and developing yourself not just physically but also mentally.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I spent a lot of time and then looking at wider opportunities.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: I got a couple of mentors as such one professionally supporting that career guidance, but also a few coaches who I knew and respected very well.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's important to surround yourselves with those who you respect because if you support them, you know they will guide you and that guidance is invaluable because they have the experience that you want.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time going out to America in the summers.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: At the time it was very popular because they didn't have that knowledge base within in coaching and soccer was growing, especially in the female game there.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: So I spent maybe 15 summers going out working in academies, working in some of the soccer clinics.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: As such the I say name drop the director out there was a guy called Tom Rowley from Newcastle, moved out there, worked in college and then set up his own sort of organisations.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: But I just learned from him, being around him, his coaching mentality, his structures, the way his player care was, the way just dealt with individuals, players, parents.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: That's when I got, I think, the love and that bite for coaching and supporting and developing behind the scenes and not being on the pitch.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So working in the academies out there coming back and then I got a role working in the FC Bournemouth with the junior academy there.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: So there are these bits along that pathway that just helped me start to hone my skills and expertise and my CV essentially.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: So I knew I was working towards it while still getting that grounding of an undergraduate bachelor's and then went on to do my masters to look at the more management leadership as I progressed.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's really interesting the way you sort of step through that, the way you just took me through that, because the university piece is a vehicle, it seems, for you to continue to grow.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: You know, doing sports, playing sports, being at a university, all that you opened up with it, but just that environment seemed to be really supportive for you as well.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it did.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Many, many universities have, I think they extend the careers of those who potentially aren't within that professional academy structure.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Many universities, like here at Brighton, offer those sports scholarship packages to try and proactively recruit athletes to become a student that can continue their education whilst continuing their professional career.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: We are many universities here have what we call task talented athlete support scheme, so a government funded initiative where athletes in the local region we can support them with that life skills, the management care, the strength Conditioning.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: So universities I think are an untapped resource but they're already those structures in place to be able to support athletes who want to get an education but still continue their professional career.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: It's popular now for many Americans to come across to UK universities because they have a restriction in the NCAA they can only undertake four years so they can't pursue a postgraduate while still getting that sporting experience and a sports scholarship.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: So many Americans now I would say it's grown over the last five to six years come to UK universities.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: They get a sports scholarship, they can continue their professional career, albeit at a different level, but also they get that sports scholarship packages and then they can look at potentially going to Europe on pro contracts and we've seen that definitely grow over the last four or five years.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Even that is a slight tangent, but that's a pathway I haven't heard of.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I haven't understood.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: That was something that was certainly emerging.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm gonna have to learn more about what that looks like and and how that operates, certainly.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, it's Australians to.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: You know they're coming across to the UK but obviously it's based on the economy and costs.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: But yeah, Europe is a main pool but definitely UK universities will target NCAA students because they have the time management, because they are dedicated athletes.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, thinking of sort of thinking of those aspects for you when you think about your, your playing career and Having to essentially balance this dual career in fact I'm gonna say so I've been three but certainly dual career of Playing and studying as you are coming to the end of sort of university.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: What steps were you taking to think about either prolonging or continuing your playing career and also that transition out?
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, transition one is the difficult one.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: I look back, I think I was fortunate enough because I had that Understanding that I wasn't going to make it.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I was in an education system.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: So I know I had three years at university to guide me through and think about how can I develop my personal skills and my skill set To then, once I leave university, I need to get a career, I need to get a job and need to pay for bills, whereas many players are in that Academy setup they may get they released a college show.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: For me it was about trusting those around me to have that guidance, so to make informed choices by the support I was getting around me.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: So I utilize my time whilst I was in education to go right let's get my coaching badges, let's learn from others, let's expose myself to different environments, because I can take all that learning and it's going to make me a better Individual, a better professional for a career.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: And what that next step was?
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: It wasn't easy, you know.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: You doubt yourself, there are difficulties, but for me it was surrounding myself with the right individuals that could help me through that transition from education into the career, the workplace and how intentional was that for you?
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Very good question.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: I think for me there was that guidance from especially my, my father, from a young age of If you work hard, opportunities will arise.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: So there was always that self-drive within me from being in a sports environment.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: You want to win.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: You know your ultimate goal is lifting trophies and success and being part of that team.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: So there was that drive there that I never wanted to fail because I felt like I was letting myself down and my family down, essentially.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: But I knew I had that drive within me to succeed.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: So I wanted and I learned from others very quickly that it was about how can I get from a to b?
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: What is that pathway and what does it look like for me?
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: And just breaking it down, there's that sort of the part, part, whole learning methodology.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: It's don't look at it as a whole picture, break it down.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: So, learning from the coaching methodology there, small steps, small steps, small steps.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: And that gave me the confidence to feel like I was continually achieving and developing towards that end goal.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: And it was funny when I was working at Bournemouth I had some pro players come to me or just be passed on to me because they've been released and they were what do I do?
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I've just been released.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: What's my next steps?
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: You know they were really struggling, so then got into probably the last four or five years a bit of coaching and mentoring myself to support others because I knew I'd gone through that journey but just to guide people in a way that could give them confidence.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: They've got the assets, they've got the skill set.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: It's about understanding that, first of all.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: It's about then setting out a plan and Working to that in a way that's comfortable and achievable towards that end goal.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you've the way you described.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: That certainly resonates with with me and a lot of the people that I've working with.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Indeed, just today I was talking a lot about chunking things down and Especially when you're looking at that journey, that path that you're on in terms of you know Younger players who are sort of at the start of their career and saying, look, it's still important to think about what's next, but let's not go crazy here, let's break it down into nice easy chunks.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: That whole type methodology comes through it is and that the personal skills that you attain whilst being a professional footballer or athlete, the teamwork, the resilience, that leadership, dealing with failure they are invaluable for Employers who want to look at those types of athletes to be, you know, part of their organization.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: You don't get that from outside sport.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: So there's a value there that you need to have confidence in as an individual.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: It's just then building up that targeted professional development.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: So for me, I was fortunate and I've got a role at Bournemouth University.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: So then was working in sports development, so still working in a team, but also that management, middle management level, working across multiple sports, and at the same time then it was developing my management and leadership and coaching.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I was fortunate enough, did my masters, which then gave me more qualifications, and now I'm in the role I'm in as head of sports.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: So there is a value to any athlete out there, regardless of when they make that transition, that they can build on that.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: For me it's around that player care and getting the right support to mentor them along that journey of during that journey.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: And what skills do you think you brought to help get you those jobs, that first job in the initially?
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: What was the skills that you brought forward?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: I think, aside the grounding of a whether it's an nvq or a degree I think England in some ways is Failing slightly because when you go out for job adverts you know a lot of them say you need a degree as a minimum standard.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: But there's a value to experience and I think the vocational route Australia is very big on this, as you well.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Well, no, the vocational experience and vocational Qualifications and expertise are regarded a lot more highly there than here.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: For me, it was ensuring that I had that underpinning of a Bachelor of Science, a degree.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: But also, when you come to it, what other experience did I have to bring to the table?
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: So it was about gaining experience from a wide variety of environments.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: So going out to America doing my coaching badges, my ability to say I was still playing professionally, so that dual career, managing that work-life balance who else was I able to go and volunteer for?
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Who else could I go and shadow?
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: All of that enabled me to actually, on paper, someone could look at that and go.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: This guy's got experience.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: He's gone out and looked at other areas, he's got the degree as a backdrop, but actually he's someone who we could take into the workplace.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: So it's not just about a degree.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Today, it's absolutely not Every student that comes through our doors we say what else can you do whilst you're at university?
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: How can you utilize that time?
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: And same to any player within an academy.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: How can they utilize their time, whether at home by self-guided learning or through the player associations, or here at the English football league.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: They all have their ability there to support those youngsters, juniors, teenagers or even adults to get those additional qualifications and experience.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and what you've spoken about at least what you've described in the steps you've taken is exploration.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: You were prepared to explore different opportunities, to explore voluntary work, to explore going overseas, to explore doing different jobs and study, and that is what I'm understanding is building out a picture for you, and when you then put that picture on a resume, on a LinkedIn, suddenly that stands out as wow, actually there's a lot of experience that this individual has.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely right.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I looked at it and say, fortunately I had that sort of mentor support, someone who guided me, for them to say, well, where are your weaknesses, where are your strengths?
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Let's focus on some of those weaknesses whilst trying to improve those strengths, and then it enabled me to, as you say, build my resume and then, once you get those opportunities, you work hard.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Hard work costs nothing, and that also then gives you the level of respect.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And one key one I learned was around that networking who are you adding to your LinkedIn profile?
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Who are you connecting with?
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Because if you grow your profile, we're in the digital ways now, aren't we that you can say we're safe as an influencer.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: They may not have the expertise, but people highly regard these individuals now on social media and they may not have the experience or expertise of any individuals that have actually been there and done it.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: It is, you know, without going to influence a status, but it is being able to demonstrate knowledge and demonstrate skill acquisition in some shape or form.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: What's been consistent, it sounds like, for you is acquisition, but you've been able to find mentors.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: You've been able to find people who have, it seems, positively influenced you in the decisions that you made and I actually before, in the intentional status of it.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: But were you seeking mentors?
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Was that something you thought was important to grow?
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Probably at the time, if being reflected, looking back, I wouldn't say it was intentional.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I just knew at that point I was trying to develop my coaching career and I saw someone there who I respected and, because I was engaged in that environment, working for them, built up a relationship and a rapport and then that individual sort of took me under their wing and there was that two-way knowledge exchange.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: So I was just learning to grow myself.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Now I look back and I think what a great decision that was.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Thankfully Then, as I matured from a professional perspective, as far as with regards to a career in the workplace or in an organisation, I was very, I think I learned from that and very quickly then tried to find a mentor for me, someone who I regarded was very good at developing people.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: And then it was just once every couple of months, just an hour chat, very informal, and guiding me on that process, making me realise what I needed to achieve and actually where I wanted to go.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: When I left university I never knew what I wanted to do, never had an idea, something in sport, very generic, but the pathway just naturally involved in front of me and now I'm at a stage where I try and give back because of what I've learned, to support others on that transition route themselves.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: And so when you left uni, you say you wanted to do something in sports.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: And was that to work for someone?
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Or were there aspirations of building your own business or exploring things your own way?
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: What were your options?
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: So I'd graduated, moved back, say back to Bournemouth.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I was very fortunate that I interviewed the head of sport of Bournemouth from my dissertation whilst I was at uni at Portsmouth.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: He had a role coming out who he'd mentioned to it and I thought, oh yeah, that's local to me, comfortable with the environment, the area, could pop back to the parents every now and then for your food parcels.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Still, and I was actually out in America.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I'd interviewed for the role.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: I went out to America to do the coaching out there and got offered the role, so flew back early and then that was that first sort of 12 month contract dealing with intramural sport Bournemouth University.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: So that was very quickly that first sort of success point which gave me then the grounding and I think because I'd been through higher education I was aware they were a good employer, it was a secure employer but it gave me the opportunity to still learn because there was lots of staff development, internal development that they afford staff within universities.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: So I still had that knowledge exchange.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I could still play football locally and at the same time continue my sort of coaching career.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: So that was a fortunate time for me, making that initial, I would say, transition through from university into a job, which was the big sort of concern at that point.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: So look, I suppose, coming into sort of what you're doing now and the impact you have.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Just before I step into that, I'm curious a bit about success and to what extent has your definition of success changed through wanting to be a footballer, going through university, stepping into coaching, to sort of where you are today?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: How is your definition of success, I'd say, evolved or matured?
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I think if I looked at myself and said, am I successful?
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: It's a difficult one because I always think and I want to achieve more.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: There is that self belief that I want to achieve more and be better than I am.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: So I always question whether I am successful.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: But as far as my position now, I feel I have, I think, elevated myself as far as where I am in life, the ability to support a family, the ability to be well regarded within a sector, within an environment around student sport, and that's transitioned away from football very specifically.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: But I felt like I now could add value to a wider institution, a multi sport approach.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: I always wanted actually to go and work for a governing body.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: That was one of the drivers for me, because I'd seen the PFA in professional sport or the RFU rugby football union and any governing body and thought, yeah, that's an environment I want to be in.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: What a great place to work.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: But I very quickly learned that a lot of their funding, how it's structured here from the government, is based on those whole sport plans, the cycles.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So many friends who took that route were in a role for three, four years but then had to move roles there to find somewhere else to live and that was really uncomfortable for me.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: I knew for me success, I wanted that transition, the ability to set up a place, set up a home and work through and develop.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: So I worked at Bournemouth University for 15, 16 years and now I've been here at Brighton for four or five.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: So for me yes, I think I am.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: I am a success with regards to my own eyes, but actually for me, success is what I'm doing for other people.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Now, how are we developing sport at university within England universities?
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: How many students can we get wearing that England top?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: So it's the provision of opportunities, developing others around you as a leader as such.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Now, For me, that's what success looks like.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: So at various points I think in my career, my journey, success has probably taken on a different perspective.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that more thing of success and who it impacts and how it impacts them.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: It does develop.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: It develops as we get older, as we well, as we have more experiences and more interactions with individuals.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: That certainly comes through it does.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Everything we do for me is about people and connections.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Whether you're an athlete or whether you're in a career path or whatever you do sporting sort of environment or not, it's about people, it's about connections.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: So those are the two key areas that I've always grounded myself with is working with people, learning from people, being an athlete yourself to now getting the best out of others, and it's that interaction, that connection.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Covid took hit on that for many reasons, but for me that's the main objectives of any organisation or as a strategy here we develop.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: It's about people and connection.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're curious one that if you still end up in the same spot as you were today, what's the one thing that you would change in your history?
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: So if I looked back, what would it be?
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I think, believe in feeling different.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: The one thing because you know mental health.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: You know player welfare is such a big part of things today.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: You look at some of the stats that come out, especially around that transition the players who get contracts, the financial issues they have when they're out of an academy or the professional environment and the impact on their wellbeing and their welfare and their mental health.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: If I looked back to now, it would be you know, believe in being different.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Believe in feeling different because you're not alone.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Your mind is your own, but everyone as a collective is going through the same emotions, the same transitions.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Surround yourself with those you respect and admire more so.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: But also judge yourself by those who believe in you.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Because we are so hard on ourselves I think that's human nature but if you judge yourself by those who believe in you, you know they see a value in yourself as an individual.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: They see a value on what you can do, what you can achieve, going forwards.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: So those would be probably the three key things if I had to look back and sort of give my opinion to myself as a youngster.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: No, look, I think those are interesting points and it always makes me think, always makes me go back and think about what am I happy with?
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: What have I achieved?
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Where would I have changed things?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, the beauty is that you're in a point now where you're making the impact that you want to be able to make.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: You've worked hard to get to where you are now and you've seen that success is supporting others and giving back.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And today, when you think about how you spend your time, how you spend your role because I think it's a role that many people, many athletes, don't know exists, don't know is really there how would you say then you know your role, the role you're doing has evolved over, you know, the past few years, and what does the future hold for roles like yours?
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know there's always been that role for a sports coach.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Regardless of the sport itself or the organization or institution whether it's a school or college, higher education, semi professional club, you know professional academy the coach has always had the role.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: It's those behind the scenes that never really had the awareness of a quickly learned that.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Actually that was the type of position where I would like to develop myself and I could see having value.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: You know we have multiple sports facilities here at the University of Brighton, so you've got the operational relevant, you've got leadership of a sports development team and operational team, you've got multiple coaches and actually it was a position where I could really feel like an inact change.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: For me.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: I always had that slight entrepreneurial side of running academies in America myself after I'd gone out there working on certain events.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: So I'd learned from that and I had that creative mindset.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: How could I add value somewhere?
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: So I always looked for opportunities where I could support growth and talent development.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: As such, where does the role go going forwards?
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I think within a position like this, people have those people skills.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: So we have a senior manager network to develop directors or heads of sport and you can see many of those roles are now leading multiple functions within an institution so they may have sport within their remit, there may be hospitality, there may be accommodation, because people have come through sport, have those people skills and that's a real underpinning and value to then managing people.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: So, regardless of the function, it's about people and connections.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Again, you don't have to be an expert.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: I'm not an expert in what our facilities do or how we operate, but I can have an understanding and I can manage the people who are the experts.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: You know there's a real, I think, openness and honesty there.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: You're not the expert, but actually you can manage functions.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: So I can see their growth in lots of individuals within sport and I see it in this role that they could go on to be head of commercial services.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Sport is an income generating.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Hospitality, events and conferences is so for me, managing multiple functions is that direction of travel for positions like this, just as such as a general manager the film with Brad Pitt in baseball.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's such a great movie because it gives you an understanding of the performance analysis, the locker room environment.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: But actually as a GM, that's a position in all clubs.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: You know you could be a chairperson, a general manager, whoever.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: They're managing multiple functions within a larger organization, but they're not the expert.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: It's just about the strategy, the leadership and the direction.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's wonderful.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: It's something you know, I myself have continued to go through, which is where, in terms of sport, where can I make the largest impact to achieve that success for others?
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Is it on the field, always as a coach, in the track suit, you know, directing, and with boys, girls, adults?
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Or is it in that back room?
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Where's that role?
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: And I often think athletes never perhaps give themselves the space or see or hear enough people talking about the roles and the fulfillment that one can have by being in the background.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: So it's great to hear that you know coming from yourself and where it's taken you now.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: And I think that has improved as far as the exposure and the opportunities for those players within either a scholarship in a professional football association or even if they're in the English football league, having that exposure to do apprenticeships, to undertake that day release, to have that support, to understand that there are opportunities in the future at some point.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: If you don't make it as a professional footballer I think it was at 99% of players who joined an academy at age nine won't make it as a pro.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: But you now see within the media someone like Trent Alexander.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: He set up the after academy.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: So there are those professional players.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: You look at Marcus Rashford around, what he's done within education and schools and you know, as far as from just the nutritional element with food and school meals, trent's done the same.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Now he's gone out on a limb and said, look, I'm putting this in place because the support wasn't there For other players very close to him.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: So I think it's growing in its depth and breadth of understanding that the PFA, the EFL, the EFA are doing more to support players because it's a business at the end of the day.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, you are a player in a much wider ecosphere and it's about success and it's about money, but you have to support those individuals on that journey.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: I think more is now being done, but not so much the case historically.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Look, barry we are.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I can tell we can continue talking on this element, which is great.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I suppose I've just one more question, really, and perhaps a bit more of an open one, with regards your role at English universities and sport.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: You know you mentioned earlier about trying to bring back more international or sort of home counties type games.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: That sounds like it's a big challenge for you at the moment, or you know something that you and the team are working towards.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Can you just explain a bit about that, because that sounds quite exciting.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so within English universities.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: So we've got the six pathways and sports that we offer.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: What we're trying to resurrect is the home nations event.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: So you have that domestic, you know, representative programs but you have international representation.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: So English universities will come together in a three, four day multi sport event across multiple sports, playing against Scottish student sport, against Wales, against Northern Ireland Look at what rugby has done.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Six nations, you know.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: In the future we invite France or Italy across.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: We really feel and I really believe that there has to be that opportunity for students, one to represent their country in that pathway.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: But also, where is that competitive?
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Where's that highlight?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: We've seen many students come through our program and then actually get picked up back into the professional game.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: So that's where education has an opportunity as well.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: We've seen it in netball, at handling football and basketball very recently.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: So there's real pride in that.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: So the home nations is one that probably the last year and a half We've really been pushing and advocating with the membership to say we really believe there is a value in this British University in college sport deal with the domestic sport and the international world university games and Anusa English University games.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: But we as an association have tried to drive that forward with the other nations and we now have a Consensus around 74% of the membership want to see home nations return, which is fantastic.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: So the next steps for us is trying to Collaborate with the other nations and bucks to find a host venue for 2024, to have that platform for students to play Internationally, aside what they have contractively with a club and that's yeah, that's a big priority for us going forwards.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: But it's making those small steps and I think I've learned a lot my career and how to To have that journey and past strategically.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Who are the movers?
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: The shake is how do we need to Get on board and on board a wider membership of over a hundred institutions that there's lots of politics again at play.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: You've got to learn how to navigate that as well, which is very difficult and I'm still learning that myself.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: But home nations is a real event that we see Returning by annually as of 2024.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: We're looking for partners to come on board with that and maybe in the future we can take English universities, you know, to Australia and play against some of the associations of colleges or institutions out there Because being asked to get some sun.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: It would, I think if, whether's the only thing, it's still worth it.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Look, I'm thanks for explaining and sharing that.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: It sounds really exciting.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: And again that additional Pathways you mentioned for those athletes looking to transition and think well English universities, a place where I can continue to Actually still develop athletically but then also develop from an academic or from a future of work skills perspective as well.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: So I think that's a great opportunity You've articulated there.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: No, it's.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: We've got.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: We've got the very best coaches in place and we're trying to provide that support package around what the Institutions do.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: That in itself is a just an area where there is so much support and development.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: But we can provide that representative pathway and I think it's right that we should so.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: For me that's the driver and why why I'm doing it, why the team are doing it and we're all volunteers within the association.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: There's a value there and I think that we were harness and students.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: We have now have patrons coming through that used to be part of English universities and want to give back.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: One example I can quickly mention, if I may at Tamsen Greenway she came through University of Bath, went through English universities, went on to represent England, was the Scottish.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: This was national coach at the Commonwealth and is the Sky Sports Pundit.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: You know she is a patron and she's giving back because she saw Value in that program.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: So if we can harness that for this generation, then they can give back to the next generation and that's a big part of that cycle, isn't it?
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is like you say, growing up and giving back, and that's definitely something that's important.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Barry, I just want to say thank you very much for sharing your story, sharing your journey, but then also educating me on other pathways that are out there as well for athletes.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks very much for your time, barry.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: No problem at all, and I've learned a lot from from others that you've spoken to as well.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: So I think it's it's invaluable what you're doing, opening up people's mindsets and expertise, and I think it's that self-guided learning is Growing now.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, thank you to you.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you for approaching me to come on.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the second win podcast.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio For more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Saris from copying content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: That's all from me.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Take it easy until next time.