Latest / Carson's Corner: Entrepreneurship & Investing / Extend & Pretend Is Over: Negotiating Distressed CRE Debt from Strength with Shlomo Chopp

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Extend & Pretend Is Over: Negotiating Distressed CRE Debt from Strength with Shlomo Chopp · Carson's Corner: Entrepreneurship & Investing

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Every borrower needs to understand that when you hire your future something you can't control, you're likely going to get a surprise.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's never gonna work out exactly as you anticipate.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: For good, surprise for bad.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you want to be surprised, go play the lotto.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Meet Shlomo Chop, managing partner of case in a powerhouse in distressed real estate, asset strategy, and billion-dollar deal making.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: You need to then have a very strong grip on establishing the parameters around which you negotiate to your benefit.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: When it comes to establishing the hard guard, that means understanding the property better.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: Making sure that the lender understands that they're not going to do a better job than you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Not telling them, not like saying we're the best for the property, we know the property the best.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Every borrower said that.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: But you have to look at you, you're a defaulted borrower.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: So you need to basically put yourself in a position to be able to convince the lender that you are out of the solution and you're not the problem.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do we restructure this?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: I need help.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I needed help 18 months ago, and that's not the way they should have done it.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's never too late to reach out to you.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: But they shouldn't think about how do I restructure that.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: They should think about I got a problem, how do I get out of my problem?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Don't try to micromanage the process because you don't have enough knowledge on that front.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Unless you do.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you do, more power to you.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: You've been in this for a long time.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: What, like right after the 2008 crisis, basically?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you've been doing base di distress debt and everything.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you see things going and how have things evolved and all that?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the whole Welcome to the Carsons Quarter.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I'm sitting here with Mr.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Slomo Chop, and we are here to talk about debt.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's a lot of distress going on out there in the real estate world.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: You hear about it left and right.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, Shlomo says that people try and relationship their way out of um a bad debt situation.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what what do you what do you mean by that?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: If you owe me money and you got a relationship, who's to say that I should use my relationship to forgive the money?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you should use your relationship to pay me back.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, relationships are good, but relationships, I think you sort of gotta make the argument, right?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, even if you have a buddy and you want to figure something out, you sort of got to make an argument why you should be the guy on the receiving end as opposed to the guy in the giving end.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: And if I guess the guy on the other side of the table thinks that he's right in the process, I mean if a husband and wife could fight, why can't two friends with a great relationship fight?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: So relationship gets you only so far, right?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: You really need to make the argument and you need to understand everyone's gonna see things from their perspective.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: You gotta just address that up front.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um when you step into uh a bad debt situation, or uh what what what's the average situation look like that you uh come into?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're looking for like really bad, distressed rescue situations, or what does that look like?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think in a perfect world, um we don't come in when it's really bad.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: We try to come in as early as possible.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: But ultimately we are coming in to a problem situation, right?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: We just try to you want to get there early on.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um think of it as I want to be the guy that helps someone get healthy before there's a problem, as opposed to dealing with a disease, God forbid.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um so we try to have our borrowers come to us early and say, listen, here's the problem we see on the horizon.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then we could help understand that problem, help understand how it could be solved without going to the lender to the extent it could be solved, and then figure out if we were to go to the lender and say we've solved all the property level, the borrower side potential solutions.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Here's how we need relief from you, the lender, and here's why we can't get it otherwise, and here's why you, the lender, can't achieve this resolution without us, or without someone such as us that's prepared to take the level of risk for expertise that we bring to the table.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and once you can make that really good argument, hopefully it carries a day.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: And carrying a day doesn't mean you make your argument, your closing statement, have a good day.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: You're actually going through a workout process.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: The lender is going to go through their discovery, if you will.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: They're going to get appraisal, they're going to send the market, and you're going to have to try and get out ahead of that lender and make sure that the information that they get is going to be accurate and not something that's, you know, unreliable, if you will.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: So Yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah, that's what we do.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you fix a lot of the problems on the borrower's side just because, you know, in most cases, the borrower go ask for some sort of relief, and the landlord's like, well, you're screwing up this, this, and this, and you're able to shore up a lot of that on their end.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what asset classes are you dealing with?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is it all kinds?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are you dealing with like medical apartments or you know, retail?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, so we have office, apartments, mixed use, multiple clas multiple um uses in it.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: We do have some retail.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, so there's there's a nice little cross-section, but the heavy focus, the heavy, the heavy place right now is multifamily and office.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was about to say I've seen a lot of uh multifamily where you know the owner's three million underwater or something.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a couple owners say, you know, they'd sell it at a loss, so anyway.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what are like the signs?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: What when should an owner reach out to you?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is there like, you know, is it go ahead.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I I think I think owners should reach out when they could actually have the honest conversation with themselves and realize that their business plan is one of hope.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's when they should reach out, not when it's already proven that it's always was hope and there was no chance of ever resolving anything.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because here's the thing: like, the more money you put in before you approach a lender, the less money you have to use as part of your negotiation with the lender.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: What does that mean?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: So let's say you're maintaining the property for a year and you're coming out of pocket, and every month you're putting in money, then you go to the lender, they tell the lender, listen, I need help.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, What are you doing for me?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, well, I just supported it for a year.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's great.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: But now you want something for me.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: What are you going to do for me?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because I can take back the property and have the benefit of what you've done for the past year either way.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: So no one's saying that you should be a deadbeat and not put money in, but the answer is being smart with your cash allocation that you actually have to use.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: And also be smart whether you want to actually save the asset, right?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's like sometimes it just makes sense to walk away.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and I'll tell borrowers, you know, just walk from the asset.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: And others may not, to be very frank with you.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um it depends on the person.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's people that'll let go in a heartbeat, and there's others that won't, you know?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's like Yeah, I mean, yeah, and and really one of the first things that we do in the process is try to figure out without any emotional involvement what the property is actually worth.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then we try to chart out where a deal potentially could get done based on where the value is, and then we need to chart out if a deal gets done, is it worth it long term for the for the borrower to stay with that asset?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: And these are very hard questions.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it honestly, like, let's be real.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I do this for a living, okay?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: It takes me about three months to get prepared to talk to the lender.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: We have so many borrowers just pick up the phone and say, hey, we got a problem, can't help you.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like you know, they're jumping the gun.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: They're jumping the gun, and that's a huge problem, and they gotta, you know.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, unfortunately, to be frank, like borrowers don't know what the path would be over here, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: They're positive by nature.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they've never defaulted on a loan before.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um they're embarrassed.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: They don't know what to propose.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: What does the lender want is a constant question.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: And the real answer to it is like, you're a leading actor in this drama.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you want?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: What are you proposing to the lender?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: What would the lender take?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't know.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: It depends what the asset value is and what the lender is convinced the asset value is.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: And what can you do to make sure those two things are actually the same?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, these are the things that a borrower needs to do.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And too often, you know, it's by the seat of the pants after they've spent all the money and now they're like, okay, it doesn't make sense for me to stay at the property.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that's just not the path.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's just absolutely not the path, at least to success.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think most people, it's one of those where it's a situation where they never imagine themselves being in.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they didn't get into the real estate business saying, oh, you know, I might be faced with this thing's gonna get repoed someday.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they went into it thinking, hey, we're gonna run a successful business.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: The market shifts on them, and then they're like, oh, blank, you know.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, um you talk about, you know, holding cash back, and you know, Donald Trump was, you know, kind of famous for basically saying, I'm not paying you, and you know, the bank's got a problem.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: But you're kind of going in and not necessarily playing hardball, but playing smartball, I guess.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is that how you'd describe it?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah, I think I I think you know, take the politics out of it for a second.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Just Donald Trump's method of negotiation.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's fine.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine, it's perfectly fine.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think it's fair game.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um you need to be a big enough loan and a big enough borrower to be able to take that approach.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Number one.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Number two, you need to be prepared to lose.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: Heck, he lost his casinos, he lost, you know, the Plaza Hotel, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: These there are there were losses that he had.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, if there's anything you really want to know about like failing in life, yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: This guy failed multiple times and he's the president of the United States.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so the reality is sometimes it makes sense to lose.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Life is a long war, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Just because you lose a battle doesn't mean anything, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, ultimately, you know, you want to come in and play aggressive hardball, just understand that the lender's got all the leverage.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're prepared, if you're not afraid of that leverage, if you're like, you can't hurt me, then that's great.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: You may succeed, you may not.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Depends how weak the guy across the table is.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Depends on what what you're offering.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning, meaning, if the lender is in that bad a situation, then you staying in the asset or the lender conceding to you is something you're offering that's better than what they could otherwise do.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: So all those things are factors.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's not your aggressiveness per se that's going to win the game.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Who was I think it was uh what was it?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Grant Cardone said uh, if you own the bank a million dollars and you can't pay, you have a problem.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you if you owe the bank a billion dollars and you can't pay them, the bank has a problem or something like that.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if Grant said it or someone said it before him, but yeah, I mean that's that's the truth, but but it still doesn't get you a deal.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: You have to like you can have all the leverage in the world, you're relying on the guy across the table from you to interpret that leverage properly and to act on that leverage logically.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't always happen in real life.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, no.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know what another person's gonna do until they do it.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, and you don't know if the guy across the table what is what he's inclined to do.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and then sometimes people will take you down like they'll be a suicide bomber, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be what it's gonna be.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, I'll fail, but you're gonna get screwed too, and there's no way I'm giving you a deal.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you've been you've been in this for a long time.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: What like right after the 2008 crisis, basically?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you've been doing base d distressed debt and everything.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do you picture all this going as interest rates go down?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think the problem go necessarily goes away because I think people have been holding out, hoping that interest rates go down and they could wait it out, like the extend and pretend type scenario.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I I don't know.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think values necessarily skyrocket in every situation.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you look at multifamily that was way overbuilt in some of these markets, and then just because interest rates go down doesn't mean the value of the asset shoots through the roof.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, where do you see things going and how have things evolved and all that, you know?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think the whole interest rate going down is huge, misnomer, because frankly, when the property is in the crapper, not enough income comes in, property's not maintained properly, you could drive up value, and it's not gonna be to the extent that interest rates were low before because that was really, really low.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, values come up somewhat, that's great, but now you have a deteriorated asset.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah so I just don't I just don't know that interest rates itself is gonna make a difference.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think I think ultimately every borrower needs to understand that we're that when you tie your future to something you can't control, you're gonna you're likely going to get a surprise.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's never gonna work out exactly as you anticipate.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: For good, surprise for bad.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter, but you're going to get a surprise.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, if you want to be surprised, go play the lotto.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty funny.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, I just uh I I think people have a like a like what you're saying, it's like, okay, as low as interest rates were were, I mean, they were so low, it's like, okay, they started coming down, but you know, they're not gonna go low enough to really increase the value enough to really change the debt situation.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I see it as an ongoing problem in most cases, unless the you know, like vacancy changes or something else, or you know, you're able to manage it better or something.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I think even if it's snapped back to where it was, let's say, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: Which it's not going to, you still have all the negativity that occurred between now, between then and now.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: So not only do you need to recover the value, but you also need to reinvest to turn around the asset.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't see it.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't see it.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact that it's not recovering anywhere close to that should tell you everything you need to know.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: So um when you re-underwrite these assets, what does this look like?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: What what are so if you guys come into an asset, what does the capital stack look like?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Are you mainly renegotiating the debt or y'all coming in as a as a new lender, or how does that look?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like when you y'all come in into one of these distressed situations?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Are you just a an advisor?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm almost always just going to be an advisor.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we would take a position of buying the debt or equity, but that's not something that we like to do.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: We're very selective, but we do get involved.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Understood.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: As an advisor, the first thing you need to do is recognize if the property's in distress, there's a good chance you're not in the money anymore.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Which means if you're going to do a deal, you're going to have to re-establish your equity.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: You're going to have to come up with some type of cash.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't come up with cash, just asking the lender to modify it for you is not really going to be something that they're going to be keen to do.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: So therefore, you need to look at this as a new acquisition.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you need to understand what the thing is worth right now.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: You need to re-underwrite the deals if you're buying it brand new.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you do have a lot of information because you actually own the asset, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: Now, it's even worse than that because not only do you have to underrise if it's a new asset, but you need to explain to the lender how it got to where it is today.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the best way to do that is to actually look at where the market is right now, look at where your property is right now, understand the spirit and it, and then go back and look to where it was when you started.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: So you're saying what was, what happened, where it is, and what needs to happen moving forward.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: These are the things that need to be discussed with the lender uh when you when you get involved in the stress situation.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: For me coming in, I needed to do diligence.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: I need to do diligence on what happened so that I could explain it, so I could excuse what the lender may have, you know, an opinion as to how bad this borrower may be.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that's going to help me work through the process to not only rehabilitate the lender's um opinion of the borrower, but also to then, once it's rehabilitated, propose a solution that is better than what the lender has been getting in the market otherwise.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of what you do, you know, these owners are probably pretty emotional when they are they?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Are some of them pissed or, you know, what what's the attitude of an owner?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I know I've been, you know, I've started so many businesses throughout my life, small and big, and I know the uh psychological, you know, stuff.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I've started a business where I was losing money the first two years, and I wasn't a happy camper for a you know a several year period.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, what are they are they pretty emotional about it?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably part of your role is bringing logic to the table in a very, you know, just stressful time for them.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think most borrowers are they feel like they're lost.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: They don't understand what's going to happen next, they don't understand how to get themselves out of the situation, and they fall back on things that are that are common to them, deal making.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: But a workout is not a deal.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: A workout is something that you first have to deal with the neg the the downside, and then you can work to the upside.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: There's no quick deal getting done.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, hey, Carson, I got a great deal for you.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: You want to lose 10 million?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: You want to put it, you want to, you want to actually like rubber stamp that on your books?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it quickly.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: Quick deal.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'll close it.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you want to do that quickly?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: No, hold on, let me see what I can get done.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so now I gotta convince you that that's the best deal you need you could otherwise get.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's why deal making on this takes a while.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and the beauty of it is that until the gavel hits, the you know, you're until the gavel hits, you don't lose the property.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: So you have time to do this deal, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: The deal going sideways is actually going sideways for the lender and not for you, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: So that there's a level of patience that needs to be employed.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: There's a level of knowledge that you need so you could actually confidently think to yourself, what is that other guy thinking?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: This is what he's thinking, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Borrowers don't have that.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what we bring to the table.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: We help borrowers understand what's happening to the other side of the table.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Now they go, Oh, do you know so and so who's at such and such bank?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I do, but it doesn't matter because unless I can give him the proposal that makes sense to him, based on what he knows about the property, based on what he thinks about the future value of the property, and based on what he's seen in the market that he could otherwise recover.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, the relationship, you could go golf with him.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: But he ain't giving you a mulligan.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I I would think most people, the problem, the reason they don't call you is they're embarrassed.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, two, I think the overwhelming psychological thing is probably fear, and then some of them get a little angry about the situation they're in.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because it's not not where they imagine being, but you know, I think that this the sooner they can bring logic to the table, a guy like you to kind of like rationalize where they're at, what can you really do about it?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: What are your you basically count their poker chips and then say, okay, here's how we're gonna play the game.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of one of those, but you have the experience and expertise and all that.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: So well, I think the reason somebody wouldn't call us because they don't even know that the selling out there can help them with this.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: They think they go to the lawyer and it's gonna solve it.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's the worst move you could ever make.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because the lawyer is gonna get a lawyer on the other side of the table, and that lawyer is gonna be following directions from the client, not gonna be a deal maker.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Your lawyer is also not gonna be a deal maker, but you're gonna push him in the right direction.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: He's just gonna find that you're gonna get to a la a standstill and it's going to be a problem.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Lawyers are not going to make this deal.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was about to say I'm not giving legal advice, but lawyers are there to bill.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, they it's like the longer it stays in court, the better, I think.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just yeah, but it's not it's not even that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's like they don't like they don't understand the property, they don't understand the movie.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Motivations of the lender, right?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: The lender wants the property back.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Lender wants it foreclosed.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, the lender doesn't want the property back.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: The lender wants their money back.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: So the reason people don't call us because they don't know we exist.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: Then when people call us, it becomes apparent very quickly.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: Some people are fits and some people are not.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't mean someone is not as experienced.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the guy that's not the fit.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: The guy that goes, let me try first to see what happens, and then I'll get back to you and perhaps we'll go with you.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: But first, let me try.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: Or I even had someone, I threw them some ideas, restructuring ideas, and they called the lender and proposed those restructuring ideas.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, like, what are you trying to accomplish here?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't work that way.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: But you can't go and say, Oh, here's my deal, take my deal, done.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Have a good day.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: No, you have to lead up to it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: You have to you have to understand what the lender's position is.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, these ideas are concepts, they're constructs that you got to work through.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, so that type of guy doesn't make sense.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, because by the time he comes back to me, he's messed it all up.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: And there's there's not a lot to be done.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I recently had somebody that couldn't even get his lender to respond.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: I got the lender, I got the we got the the head of lending in a room.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: And we did it, not because not through a relationship.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: I never met the guy in my life.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: We did it because we knew how to create just as much incentive as need as was needed to get that lender in the room.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that can be positive and negative uh incentives.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I know in some of those negotiations it's not really what you say, it's how you say it too, and placing urgency on it and saying, hey, you know, being very polite, but also, you know, maybe giving some ultimatums when needed.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if those are some tactics you use, but you know.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't use ultimatums.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you how I'll tell you the tactics that I use, okay?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: I offer information and I get information back in return.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: I make it clear that we're prepared to do everything the lender could possibly ever dream of in exchange for something.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: I answer questions that the lender asks, but I don't give information that could hurt me.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: This way it gets nuanced.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: This way gets very nuanced because most borrowers can't do that.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: And most borrowers can't ask somebody how to do it.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you ask a former lender, that former lender has no clue.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: He can only tell you what he wants to have.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, but he can only tell you what he would want to have if he's the lender.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: He can't tell you what as a borrower you should be showing and what as a lender you want to have, and find a blend between those two because he's never been a borrower.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: He's been a lender, that's great.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: You ask a former workout guy.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's gonna get right into the way he looks at those deals.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know what?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's basically trying to compete with Tiger Woods and his heyday on the golf course.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: You don't want to do that.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: There's really no, there's no benefit to that, right?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Take, you know, take it from uh Tanya Harding, right?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: She couldn't compete on the ice, so she went and used violence, right?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like you don't want to, you're not gonna win where you're not as good.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: You need to try to shift your domain to where you're solid.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then you need to figure out a way to do it where the other side accepts it, where you're not busting people's knees.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really that there's an art to it.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a science, it's an art.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And you either have it or you don't, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: This is what we do, and we're pretty good at it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's high stakes negotiating, is what it is.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: So get it and no two people will do it the same way.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: No two people will do it the same way.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's a touch and feel game.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you probably understand like these lenders.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have you dealt with like a lot of them, so you know kind of what to do with each one's every one of them's different.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Every situation we deal with is different as well.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the client and everything, you know.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: But but they're different, but they're not.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: So what I mean by that is to the borrower, they're different.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: Their motivations are different, everything is different, right?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: But to the lender, to the to I'm sorry, to the borrower, but to me, they're not.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: The people who want recovery, the types of structures they'll accept will be different, but by the time you get there, you would have had to deal with them the same way.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: They want transparency, they want dollars, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: How that dollars get structured again varies from individual to individual.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: I would say a bigger determining factor as to how you get a deal done is the specific asset management person you're dealing with, combined with it combined with the level of information you're providing to them.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: Those are the two biggest factors, like how you're feeding them and how they react to it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's a negotiation, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: But you need to then have a very strong grip on establishing the parameters around which you negotiate to be to your benefit.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: Think of it as having the high ground.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: You need to have the high ground.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: The high ground doesn't mean legal leverage.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, law, you got the low ground.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: You borrow money, you pay it back.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's the law.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Documented thousands of years, that's what it is.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: But when it comes to establishing the higher ground, that means understanding the property better.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: Making sure that the lender understands that they're not going to do a better job than you.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: Not telling them, not like saying we're the best for the property, we know the property the best.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, every borrower said that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: But you have to look at you, you're a defaulted borrower here.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you need to basically put yourself in a position to be able to convince the lender that you are part of the solution and you're not the problem.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: So when you uh shore things up with the borrower, you know, you're basically going to the lender and saying, hey, this is your operator that's paying you back, and it's going to be really hard to replace them.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of your leverage.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's just logic.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, and they're too big, and they really just want their money at the end of the day.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to get involved in that property.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: No lender wants to get involved in the property.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, there are some that do want to own, but at the end of the day, like most lend I most legitimate lenders, not some private guy lent money to go and take your property from you.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: They just want their money.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: And frankly, you know, you you need to explain to them why it's not your fault that it ended up this way.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: Let me rephrase it.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Not explain to you.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: You need to make them believe that it's not your fault that it ended up this way.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: And you need to make them believe that you're the best chance for them to recover maximum money.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a whole lot different than uh giving ultimatums and stuff like that.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really just it's steady-handed negotiation.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's fair.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be a paper tiger.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I agree, the paper tiger.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, that's that's pretty good, good sound walking through that, you know.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh very educational and informative.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what would you um say to somebody that's kind of in a situation where you know you start honestly at this point it's probably been going on for a long time and they've been holding on to the property for too long.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they're, you know, it's probably time to reach out to a guy like you to see, you know, what what are the solutions?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: What can we do here?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And stuff like you know people, you know, they extend and pretend.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's been going on for a very long time, probably since what, 2022, 23?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're probably into the second year of it, of people being in trouble thinking they can hold on.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Interest rates aren't going low enough, in my opinion.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where they're gonna go.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, there's always surprises, you know, but it's probably a good time for people to just say, hey, you know, this isn't getting better anytime soon.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do we restructure this and get you involved in the process, probably, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I I think I think you first need to have a really good handle on your property performa and the probability of being able to execute that pro forma.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then you need to see, like, okay, can I do it?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: And if you can't, then you gotta find a solution.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's a property solution, sometimes it's a manager solution, sometimes it's a leasing solution.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Your last ditch effort should be the lender solution.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because they have the first position, you have the least leverage.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, at least you have something to offer, right?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna have to offer cash.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: And if you can't solve it on a property level and your lender says, good, give me more money.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: How you're gonna have to solve it on a property level then.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: You do a deal with your lender, your property's not gonna miraculously turn around.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: If you're a if you're a bad operator, you're just gonna dig yourself even deeper.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't disagree with that.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: I would say look to the lender last.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh my dog just made it on the podcast for the first time.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's out there barking.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't hear the I didn't hear him.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well the delivery guy, you know, you get Amazon running by and stuff.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't hear him.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's funny.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I get I got two of them.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is all good info.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um what's what's a good way for you know, somebody that's it's running through their mind, you know, they're in the situation they didn't want to be in, you know, to reach out and say, hey, how do we restructure this?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I need help.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: I needed help 18 months ago, and that's not the way they should have done it, but you know, it's never too late to reach out to you.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: How do they get a hold of you?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: What what's your uh is your website case what is it again?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Caseinv.com.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: C-A-S-C-I-N V dot com.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: But they shouldn't think about how do I restructure this.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: They should think about I got a problem, how do I get out of my problem?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Don't don't try to micromanage the process because you don't have enough knowledge on that front.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: Unless you do.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: If you do, more power to you.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: But if you don't, like come to me with the bigger picture problem.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: Let's try to dig through it.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you're just looking for restructuring, you go to your lender and the lender's like, you got a property issue, you're not getting a good deal done.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not taking on your case either.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know I I could take money from many people.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: I prefer to take from those who I could actually succeed.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no kidding.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Anybody that uh needs help or you know just needs to talk about their situation and you know, um you're here to help them and hopefully Yeah, they could DM me on any social media, on on um actually on X, and you can DM me on um on uh on LinkedIn.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think we'll be in touch.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's one of those things, you know, if you're no matter what kind of business you're in, if you're a small business owner, you have to realize there's thousands or millions of people that you know this type of stuff happens to, and you can't be the one that's afraid to reach out and get help and you know, talk through the situation and all that.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, uh Shlomo is on uh LinkedIn a lot and he's here to help you and all that.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you coming on as a guest.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is all pretty informative stuff.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh look forward to uh getting this out there to everybody so they can listen and all that.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I appreciate you.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, I appreciate it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.