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Estevao, Xabi Alonso and the need for clarity · Chelsea Press Room

• Peter Rutzler: Right, we are recording on a Thursday, and I'm in a McDonald's car park in the New Forest. Just an average Thursday for me. No video because my internet is terrible and nobody deserves to see the inside of my citron. joining me today for Chelsea Chat. We've got rid of Bobby and Kieran, had enough of them already, and replaced them with. Jacob Steinberg from The Guardian. Hello, Jacob. Jacob: Hello, good evening. Peter Rutzler: Yep, looking you don't look like you've had a sweat after your football. Jacob: Well, it's been 15 minutes since I ended the football. So, it's been a while. If I was still sweating 15 minutes on, that would probably indicate some kind of major medical issue. Peter Rutzler: Where do you play? Jacob: as in location or position. Peter Rutzler: No, no, position. I'm not really bothered about where in in in London. Jacob: Okay, well when I was younger I played left wing but this was by the side so more just Peter Rutzler: Left wing. A are you left footed? Paul Coldham: Everywhere. Jacob: very left footed yeah, very left footed. There's someone I play with Peter Rutzler: on Brand for the Guardian, I suppose. Jacob: on a Wednesday night who just goes he's all left foot, he's all left foot. Hopefully he won't be listening to this because then he'll know that I know his secret, his secret shouts about me. Peter Rutzler: Are you all left foot? Jacob: Yep, completely, like Arjun Robin. Peter Rutzler: Excellent. Love. Paul Coldham: It's like you're you're Robin as well. Comparisons continue. Peter Rutzler: And that's the voice of Jack Rosser looking very fresh. Now you're a married man. Paul Coldham: Yeah. I've yeah, well I've managed to not work too hard this week. I've not watched any Chelsea, I've had a haircut and played quite a lot of golf, so it's if I can keep this way of working as ma in married life, I'll be quite happy, I think. Peter Rutzler: That's that makes you the perfect edition for the Chelsea Pressroom podcast. So welcome Paul Coldham: Yes. Peter Rutzler: to welcome to the pod. Jack, of course, writes for for the sun. plenty to talk about, guys, after midweek defeat for Chelsea at Anfield on penalties, lots of big talking points. in what has been probably quite a difficult few days for for Xavi Alonso. coming off the back of defeat at Tottenham. something that no Chelsea manager has done for eight years losing at home to Tottenham Hotspur and then this game too. Some interesting comments after the game as well, from Xavi Alonso. what did we make really of not just the the result but also the his sort of reaction to it, Jacob? Jacob: well, I think there's an element of scoreboard analysis because, Chelsea are a penalty kick away from winning the game and going through to the quarterfinals of that competition. And if that happens, then maybe people are talking about a pretty professional, clever away performance at Anfield, with Xiao Pedro missing with Cole Palmer suspended with Reese James out, Noemi Martinez, Chevarria was also out and you could probably spin it into being a really positive night for Chelsea. And you could maybe say there are points in the second half where they looked like they were a little bit on top. I thought that felt that way in the last 15, 20 minutes and they had a couple of chances. Good save from Pelestra, wasn't it, from Mamadou Shafili. But ultimately in the end, they lose the game on penalties and it spins back round to the fact that they haven't won a cup competition, a domestic trophy. in England since 2018. The last time was Antonio Conte with the FA Cup in his final game in charge of Chelsea. And then it's also just been that bad week. came off the really disappointing performance against Tottenham, which, you know, Chelsea managers generally struggled to recover from losing that fixture. It doesn't happen very often. And it felt like he needed to go into that game and maybe produce a little bit more. didn't really do that and then when you throw in the kind of unforced error of the comment about the cup, the Carabao Cup being the least important competition they were in, non-usage of Vestival, it just feels a little bit like, you know, there's just a little bit of... I don't want to say pressure because it's so early on with Alonso, but just a few little niggling questions that... that maybe need to be answered quite convincingly on Saturday. Paul Coldham: It is it is very early on, obviously, for the pressure. But driving back from Bournemouth last night, which is why I didn't watch this game live. I was covering their game against Aston Villa, got in the car and put Talksport on and a fan was already ringing in and saying that Alonso's got to pack his bags and and go, which is sort of, I suppose, par for the course for a lot of phone-ins and and some of the more reactive fans not just every club, but not just Chelsea, sorry, but every top club in the Premier League. But I think having the embarrassment of losing at home to Tottenham, the the run they've had against them at Stamford Bridge, to follow that up in the way they did against, they obviously Alonso made changes and and tweaked the shape of it as well, but it was a far stronger Chelsea team than it was a Liverpool team that that started. And to go there and and not be able to get across the line in normal time is is the frustrating bit for it. But I think like Jacob said there, the biggest misstep is is the the way Alonso spoke about it. Afterwards, it's we all know the Carabao Cup is the least important competition to to any club, but Chelsea have the the mystique around it, or a lot of English football has the mystique around it. That Jose Mourinho went in there and said we win this and and that changes the culture. And that's the first step towards a a fantastic season. You take it seriously because winning matters and and getting used to to winning thing matters. We all thought it would happen after the the Club World Cup and the Conference League. We thought that might be the key to. Chelsea having that feeling ingrained and and pushing on to do more. They weren't quite at the level to do that in in the Premier League or the Champions League, the ones that that really do matter. We all know that the Premier League is the focus for every single manager, but it's he said the quiet bit out loud and almost use it as an excuse. And I think if you're doing that from a position of having a really flying start to the Premier League campaign, then fans can maybe forgive you a bit, but now it's quite a long wait until January and the the third round draw to to really have a considerable runner at at winning something this season because they might be able to outscore plenty of teams in the Premier League. But I'd we all know from from what we've we've seen so far this season that they're not going to win the Premier League and they're not going to, despite the the expectation maybe rising a bit at the start of the season, they haven't got what it takes to drag that out over a season, whereas a cup competition they might have the firepower within their squad and starting eleven to get past teams. So I think to just cast it off as well, it wasn't that important anyway. You know, going to Liverpool is is is quite a serious misstep. Jacob: It's a stupid thing to do when you've got a lot of fans who've gone up to Liverpool in the middle of the week, taking time off work, spending a lot of money to go up and do that, and then to kind of tell them, well, it wasn't really that important. It's a really good and sort of unforced way to lose the support of those people. And those people are really important because they're the ones who are going to be following you up and down the country every single week. If you tell them that actually we didn't really care too much about that game, it's just, rightly or wrongly, it's just going to really annoy them. And when you get into a hole that he's kind of at the, just at the start of at the moment, if that goes deeper, then they'll remember these kinds of comments. You the other thing around it is that in the Carabao Cup this week, the story isn't really Chelsea, it's Arsenal. They're the story. They've had the most embarrassing... result of the week losing to a League Two side. But they can spin that and say, well, actually, it really is the least important competition for us. And they can go back to last season when they were attacking it on four fronts, got to the Champions League final, FA Cup quarters, and they ran out of steam at certain points during the run-in. And, you know, they probably would look back on it go, did we have to get to the Carabao Cup final? Did we have to put so much effort into that? Difference being with Chelsea is they're not in Europe. in the season when you're not in Europe, that competition just becomes far more important. It's an opportunity to win something. Normally they'd have four opportunities, this season it's three, and now one's already gone. Peter Rutzler: Yeah, twenty eighteen, the last time Chelsea won a domestic trophy. And it that I've I've enjoyed seeing on social media the sort of the you had the comparison of Alonso to Sky before the game saying we're taking this incredibly seriously and then being juxtaposed with what he then said to to CBS afterwards about being the least important competition. And I think the other factor of course is it clearly was very important. As you mentioned, Jacob, Chelsea don't have any European football this season. And you also consider the lineup that he fielded. He's playing Romeo Lavery is playing Jordan Henderson, he's playing Moises Caio, who's just come back from from injury, and has decided not to rotate in Esteval William. Before we jump to to jump onto that topic, got a voice note from from our friend Bobby Vincent, who was one of a couple of ch of intrepid Chelsea support Chelsea supporters, Chelsea reporters to have made it up north. here are his thoughts and then the questions he put to Xavi Alonso afterwards. so guys, what do we make of the Esteval Williams situation? didn't come on at all last night. his minutes have been very, very limited all season. It felt like initially at the start of this season, particularly in Brazil, there was a lot of worry, a lot of concern about what was going to happen to this prodigy, this star player. And it felt maybe maybe Xavi Alonso's right. He's just trying to f feed his way in. Maybe he'll play in one of the Cole Palmer, Morgan Rogers positions. Now we've come to a Carabao Cup game where he has played a strong team. It's clearly a preference to to use Pedro Neto. but he's not used him at all. even in a game which I think Chelsea were edging it in the second half. There w there was still scope there to to hammer home an advantage. Where is it is this becoming an unnecessary rod for his own back considering on the one hand, just how popular Esteval is. I mean, the popularity of him. It just feels like not using him at all in this way is making a a situation more difficult than it might need to be. Paul Coldham: well, first of all, can we just praise Bobby for his incredibly detailed discussion of his his almost his tactics and asking questions to Jabbi Alonso and the way it all played out in the press room at Anfield? I thought that was fantastic. it's a difficult Peter Rutzler: Yeah. Paul Coldham: one because he's Esteval's clearly a talented player. We've all seen the the flashes of him and what he can do and how he can change a game. You only have to look back to the Liverpool game at Stamford Bridge last year, where he came on, scored a winner, Enzo Muresca picked up one of the many. Chelsea cards of the season for bombing down the touchline and and celebrating with with his players in that game. This feels obviously a very long way away from that. But I think if a manager's gonna start picking players just because of a a popularity contest or someone that goes down one with the fans, you're you're going down a very dangerous path. And I think, Esteval did create moments last year, but he's clearly someone that arrived at a very young age. Yes, he's had a season, well, not a full season, but a season to start to get used to English football. But he wasn't a regular starter last year. He only played 90 minutes in the Premier League in in one game. That was the two-all draw with with Bournemouth last season. I think there were concerns from Moresca at the time that he wasn't quite robust enough for English football yet, wasn't prepared for that. We've seen in games that you know he's always one that can He'll always win a foul and and cause some trouble and and occupy defenders, but he will also perhaps give away a foul where he doesn't need to, or lose a bit of concentration here and there. And perhaps Alonso just isn't willing to accept that quite as much as Moresca was, or perhaps the physios are telling him that, these are intense games and he's he's not quite ready for it. We had Mikel Arteta talking not too long ago about how many games there are, it was only last week, sorry, about how many games there are this season, how many high intensity games there are after They played by Munich and Barcelona face PSG and we saw Kvarichelia and Bakayo Saka go down injured. Esteval's obviously not required to play as many games as as players like that, but the intensity of these games when you're drawn against a club like Liverpool in the the Carabao Cup is something that you do have to think about. So I think Alonso clearly has some standards that he once met, and just because Esteval was signed for a lot of money and there was a lot of hype around him, I don't think he should be playing him just to to calm fans down. It would be a bit of a worry now if he was to go straight into the team against United or or play a significant role against United if he has drawn these lines out without there being some significant reaction. But as we've already mentioned with a couple of issues being created over the loss to Tottenham, the way he spoke about the Carabao Cup, this is going to become another stick for for fans to to beat Alonso with if it's something that isn't either resolved in terms of a performance level from the player or explained properly to to just sit there and say, he will get a chance or, he I'm sure he he would like to play more. You want to hear some detailed reasoning as to why he's not involved or or what more he needs to do to become involved, I think. Jacob: Yeah, I mean, it's difficult, isn't it? Because he's 19 and there's every moment in a teenager's career where they dip out of a side and they have moments where they're not playing. The manager's kind of waiting for them to meet his standards and step up in his own way as well. And there's not necessarily anything... anything wrong with that. I guess the problem is that he's come in with such a lot of hype last season and they've spent so much money on him that... sometimes the players like that, they can feel in a slightly different category to even to an academy player who's coming through, who maybe is willing to be a little bit more patient and the fans are willing to, there's not the same kind of pressure and excitement around them, not the same level of hype that there is around a Brazilian teenager who's coming in for, what was it, 65 million pounds at the time and he's being talked about as a potential Ballon d'Or winner and that that that is going to bring its own its own pressure around it its own level of expectation that's expectation and pressure that probably comes from the fans i wonder if there's a little bit from the club as well because they've there has been a lot of investment a lot of sort of effort put into building up the you know the the estival the estival image that this is potentially going to be the the guy who's the face of the face of Chelsea and currently if that is the case and the future face of Chelsea is on the bench and can't even get on when people like Omega and Barco are getting on at Anfield and actually Alonso only used four subs on Wednesday night so it's not like he couldn't have brought him on. His hands weren't tied in that way and then there's the, what you worry about as well is the expectation from the player and will he just start to... Does he start to get impatient? Does he start to get frustrated? Does he check out a little bit? Does he start to wonder if, you know what, there are a lot of clubs who probably would give me more opportunities and there's probably going to be a lot of big clubs around Europe who might look at it and think, there an opportunity? I mean, I said to you today, Pete, do you think that there'd be like any point that PSG might look at it? I'm just wondering with the fact that, know, Cavaric-Gelli is out for the season and potentially there's a need for a wide player to come in, is that something, you know, I'm just, I'm floating that out of nowhere, but is that something that they might look at and think, could we get this guy out of Chelsea in January potentially, because we've got a Champions League campaign to attack. And theoretically, if a club like that does come in, do you start to get quite a lot of noise building up around it? We've already seen there's been a lot of noise that's come from Brazil. around Estavou over the last few weeks and months, because he's not been playing. It's just that it feels like a potential headache brewing. And it would be nice to get a bit of clarity from Alonso to kind of give a little bit more insight into what he feels that Estavou needs to do to get into the team. Peter Rutzler: I think that's a key part of it, isn't it? Just having, as I think you Jack, you mentioned it as well, just having a bit more clarity of explanation about where he sees him fitting in, whether this is look, this is an adjustment episode. He he has mentioned that he doesn't see him as a wing back. He says, look, to get the best of him, he's gonna be a winger and the inside forward. And that doesn't necessarily fit in with his back three system. But Alonso has been also quite vague about the way he wants his team. play. He says, you we're not always using a back three. We're gonna use a back four. And we've we've seen those changes too. And when he made the changes last night, he then doesn't play him. So it's there is that balance. And it is interesting, the winger point, right? we're also talking about a transfer window context where wingers were at a such a premium last summer. Jan Diamande, Bradley Barcla, enormous fees. This is a prized asset, not just in the sense of what he might do and the noise and and possible potential, but literally in in financial terms. So if there is that uncertainty, if there is that kind of doubt, yeah, I think you're right, Jacob. I'm sure everyone will be paying attention to to his situation because it's if the if it gets to a point where he won't he doesn't see a place where he fits or he doesn't see where a place where he's playing and it might affect his minutes for Brazil. which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment. I know he's just been called up again, then maybe it becomes something bigger. And I suppose the other interesting ask aspect, guys, is as you sort of touched on there, Jacob, like for Alonso that's quite a a position of authority and as a coach, the perception of Alonso coming into Chelsea is that he has this sort of say an influence and that he can make a decision where a player who the club clearly are investing in we've seen that in the documentary that they released, that he can just say, Look, I'm I'm not sure this is for me. Is he in that position? Do you f like has he got that authority? Or does the muddled start play into this and make it a bigger issue than it might otherwise have been? Paul Coldham: Suppose we'll find out, won't we? I think, if it if it if we do get that clarity and becomes clear that it's not an attitude thing, it's nothing to do with with the noise that's been created. it's not a training level thing. If it is a stylistic thing, we'll find out if Alonso has the the power to make that that decision. Or, we're we're always told from from people in various different positions at the club that that these decisions are truly collective. whether whether they are or not, you know, fans will have their own opinions on that. But how much weight is is attached to his voice. If it is, it does become clear that Esteval just isn't going to get that chance. If we get to to January now and like we've said, they don't have the Carabao Cup. If he was to use that as a as a vehicle to give some minutes out, which he obviously didn't for Esteval last night. But if that was going to be a vehicle, that is now gone. So it could be if he's if he's not featuring the plans, it could be a very long wait to get some minutes and we could be into that transfer window. before we see him start a game if it if it continues along this path. I do wonder if the noise is a bit is a bit of a test as well, if if that continues from from Brazil and it and it feels like it's coming from it won't it won't really in this situation be Estevar himself as a 19 year old, but from around his camp. You know, Alonso will take note of that as well, his reaction to this sort of situation. Jacob was was already mentioned, we've seen time and again that Teenagers arrive very quickly and and drop off quite quickly. And it's how they deal with that that really makes them a a star for the future and makes them someone that can be relied upon. And I think that's what Alonso's looking for, a player that he can rely upon to be part of the the squad, an effective part of the squad, part of the team and and not cause these distractions. Chelsea have had plenty of of very expensive distractions over the last few years in terms of players not being too happy, players speaking out, Cucarella and Alenzo Fernandez are now no longer at the club. They they certainly won't want another one to crop up with with a player that holds so much value for the future because they could hypothetically look to sell if it if he's not part of Alonso's plan. probably not in January but but further down the line. But they also know that if they hold on and he reaches the level they expect him to, he could be worth so, so much more to them in in terms of a a fee or or commercial revenue. So they will really want to avoid another situation where they've got a a big name player who's publicly unhappy. Jacob: I think there's, you you're right that you could kind of go back over time and you could name many teenagers who've, you know, who've burst onto the scene, been really, really exciting. And, you know, this time last year, more or less, Esteban was actually outshining Lomina Moul in a Champions League game at Stanford Bridge, scored a brilliant goal, one of the best I've ever seen live when Chelsea beat them 3-0. So at that point that night, you're just thinking this guy is an absolute world beater. Give it. You're going to have to wait much time before he's one of the best players in the world. And we've seen, given that Jamal was second or third in the Ballon d'Or this week, that it's perfectly plausible for a teenager of that, even someone that young, for them to be competing with the very best players. But we've seen many times that those players can trail off for whatever reason it might be. It might be an injury. And it's important to remember that Esteval did have a bad injury this year, not that long ago, that cost him. the World Cup. you could say, is there an element of Alonso wanting to protect him? Does he feel he's not quite back up to speed? Could it be attitude? It's happened before. I it's happened, we've seen it at Chelsea. could go back to 2018, 2019, go back to Callum Hudson-Odoi, who was a player, probably the best thing that Chelsea have ever, one of the best things that Chelsea have produced from their academy, was in the team before the likes of Mount... before the likes of Rhys James, Tammy Abraham, all those guys who came through. He was in that team in January 2019. He was really, really good. He gets his progress stunted by really bad Achilles injury that keeps him out for a while, stops him progressing. But then, you know, when he... is an element of, this guy, is he ever gonna nail down his place? And it was a succession of managers who, for whatever reason, never saw it on the training pitch. And you might say how much of that is the player, how much of that is that he never had the right manager, but we've seen it before that someone who looked like he was gonna be, know, Hudson O'Doley was talked about as an absolute, nailed on to be an England starter for years and years and years. There was a point at which he was competing with Sancho to be the next England Golden Boy. And in the end he just trailed off and he has a series of loans that don't work out. It can go the other way very quickly. And I think Alonso will be probably looking, he's entitled to look at it and see what's the, for all the noise, what's the reaction from the player going to be at the same time because... he could point to the lead's first half in the previous round of the Carabao Cup and say, well, I had to take this kid off at half time. We were losing, we were one nil down and he didn't do the job when I gave him the opportunity. Flip side to that is, you know, on Saturday against Tottenham, that he had an opportunity to start Estavale. goes down a different route, goes with the other teenager, Kenda, and it just does not work at all. At which point the manager kind of is on the losing side. losing side of the argument and we were at Stanford Bridge that night and you could feel the excitement when Estival came on, even just when he was warming up against Spurs. Paul Coldham: And I I think that that might be the hardest bit for Alonso in this, because everybody from the fan base will will have those memories like Barcelona, though like Liverpool, those moments when he comes off the bench and that that feeling you get when he's about to come on and the lift that that was created in so many games when he came on. Alonso obviously hasn't experienced that first hand. He would have watched clips and everything, but he won't have been around him when he was playing some some very good football last year. But he's also not approaching this from a very strong base. Like you said, he's had to been forced into moving things around in terms of the forward line and it and it's not come off for him. It might be that he has to just throw Esteval in because that's the he's the Quender this weekend because that's what what he's decided the solution will be. There's obviously still going to be Binojao Pedro and and we're seeing how reliant they've been on him early on this season. They need someone to come in and and add a bit of creativity again to that central role. because for It it didn't work for for Morgan Rogers being through there. And I think if Alonso was was coming from a stronger position in that you've got a a fully fit and flying forward three as he did at the start of the season, then the Esteval question's obviously not there, is it? But the longer that he goes on fiddling things around and it's not working without a clear explanation, the the louder the calls are gonna get. And I think it all goes back to that clarity. So the press conference Friday, people will be listening to this when that that's over. Hopefully we will have been Enlightened a bit. Jacob: mean, Pete, do you remember, I mean, on the robustness question, do you remember the, obviously the Club World Cup, which we were at, and obviously Estavalle plays against Chelsea in schools, this final game for Palmeiras. I mean, you remember that night, how robust he looked going up against Koukaria? Peter Rutzler: Hmm. Well, Kukare literally flew into him, didn't he? It was one of those moments where you thought as he is he trying to take out this new crown jewel that Chelsea have have signed. but that that is an interesting aspect of his his wider development. And I I suppose even like when he came in, we were probably wondering if it would take a bit longer for him to have the kind of impacts that he's had, right? We thought that it might be even it would take a bit longer, but we did have those moments, those Barcelona moments and I suppose the other thing for Alonso, we talked about that front three that's been so electric this season. Obviously Jao Pedro looks like he's going to be out for a few weeks. Cole Palmer comes back into the team, you assume, against Manchester United on on Saturday. What how do we look at the ops the other options? Because if if you're not taking Esteval as one of them that's going in with the other three, we got a glimpse of Emmanuel Omega last night. Obviously Danny Wellbeck doesn't get the nod against Tottenham on Saturday. What do we make of the little g the glimmers of Omega that we've seen? Obviously he's been injured and we haven't really seen much of him at all. I know there's a lot of expectation and excitement around him from his time at Strasbourg, obviously he was captain there. In the context of obviously Nicholas Jackson doing pretty well at Aston Villa as well, which always adds to that centre forward question. Jacob: Yeah, it was difficult with Omega last night, but I think people come away from that 20 minute cameo with two things and one would be the very strange push on Virgil van Dijk, which Peter Rutzler: Ha ha ha. Jacob: I mean, not a red card, but I don't know, was he lucky that VAR wasn't in operation last night? It was just weird. It was just really strange. Peter Rutzler: Not great for his national team hopes, is it, really? considering what Van Dyke said. Jacob: No, yeah, unless those genuine quotes, they're not one of the fake Twitter quotes that we now see. Peter Rutzler: It's it's it's so hard to tell these days, isn't it? It's an absolute cesspit. Jacob: Yeah, yeah, but I did see those and did wonder what was he playing at? Regardless of anything around the national team, was just so weird. The fact that he's just looking at him as he goes to do it, he doesn't need to do it. It's very clearly premeditated because he's not trying to get out of his, he's not seen or suddenly realized that he's running into Van Dyke and gone, no, he's made a specific beeline. for him, it's just so hard to work out what it is. Peter Rutzler: It's one of them, he's like he's come on and he's trying to I wanna leave my mark on him, but it's just it's one of them that it's like he's he's not done it when he needed to do it. It's then gone into his head, I should try and leave a mark on this guy to show I'm here But it just you can see the thought process, just the delay. It's like a lag, it's like my internet connection from this from my citron. It's it's Paul Coldham: Yeah. Jacob: You can't leave a mark on someone when it's like you're taking a massive run up and all you've done is just push them and they just turn around and go, what are you doing? That's not leaving a mark. Leaving a mark would be probably what Louis Kumas did on the choir in the very early on where he got the booking for it. But we tried to close down the challenge, like just running in like 10 minutes after the ball has gone up the other end of the pitch is just. Really weird. then the other, so that just sort of, that's just one of those things, just to finish on that, it just feels like one of those little red flags of like, what's going on in this guy's head? What is he gonna be like if we see more of him, if that's the way he thinks is appropriate to behave on the pitch? Cause that's just, it just looks like a red card waiting to happen at some point. And then the other thing he does is miss a penalty to, to win the game for Chelsea. So not a great start, the other thing around it is it just wasn't, I don't think it was particularly easy circumstances to come into last night for him. Last 20 minutes as he debuted at Anfield. Paul Coldham: I'd probably expect to see even though, you know, behaviour like that from Omega really fits in at what this Chelsea have become in terms of the petulance and being a walking red card, you know, seeing that creeping back in under Alonso still. I'd imagine we'll probably see Danny Wellbeck start against Manchester United, won't we? Jacob: great record against him. Paul Coldham: Well, just knowing that this is a a situation that they really need to get right. Man United are in a horrible position. Chelsea will be falling into a horrible position if they can't get a result this weekend, given what United have been like in the the last few weeks. You need someone up there that can know how to make this even worse for them and know the right buttons to push and and know how to get across the line in in a game like this and will go in with the confidence of of his convictions. And these are the sort of situations that Danny Welbert was bought for, I guess. We know he can score goals, but if if the chances fall his way, but it's more the capacity to make sure that they get into this game, stay into this game and and can hurt Man United where they need to be hurt, considering the the position they're in. Obviously everyone would rather have Jao Pedro leading the line and and blending that full front three together as he has done so well. if he was fit he would be starting and we wouldn't be talking about well but given the the profile of of everyone else they've got, this is the ideal situation to have a player of of Danny Wellbeck's experience, history as well with the club and and Mike Jacob says record as well. Jacob: He was pretty poor last night. He couldn't get into the game at all. Van Dijk just had him in his pocket. Van Dijk was doing that thing he does where he constantly just, the ball's coming into the striker back to goal and he's just making it so difficult for them to get it under control. he's without going to ground, without making a foul, just constantly in there, just nicking the ball away, making it really hard for them to get it under any kind of control. And Welbeck just couldn't really get into the game at all. that felt like... That felt unfortunate just because of the attention that had been on him post Tottenham, Peter Rutzler: Mm. Jacob: where obviously everybody was going, you know, you've got to play well back then. He turns up in the next game, plays him and it's just, it doesn't really work. Which in itself makes you wonder, going into Saturday, does it suddenly put a thought in Alonso's head that, can I use this guy from the start? If I play him, do we have the same intensity? Because they... They lacked it on Wednesday night. Paul Coldham: I would suggest that Man United Peter Rutzler: 'Cause Paul Coldham: centre halves are probably slightly more accommodating than Virgil van Dijk at the moment. Jacob: That's Peter Rutzler: Well he had a similar thought, didn't he, I suppose, coming after the Brentford game. I mean, that was one of the the sort of takeaways was about maybe Danny Wellbeck and and maybe that did lead to what felt like such a I was gonna say like confusing lineup against Tottenham, but it was just so unexpected and it has thrown us all a little bit, I think, in terms of what his team teams will look like. And just looking at other areas of the team from from the Carabao Cup game. Jacob: Just to go on to that though, if he's got Welbeck in the team, then he's 35 and you are going to maybe have to adapt how you play a little bit. And this was a guy who was pretty good when he started more often than not in a very strong Brighton side last year, scored quite a few goals as a starting player, sometimes from the bench. They were able to function with him in the team on a quite regular basis. So, Chelsea need to work out a way to modify that approach when he's there? And does that speak to a little bit the Alonso style of play? Probably not going to be able to play that really fast, frenetic, counter-attacking style that's worked on quite a few occasions this season, if he's in the side. But we've seen, he was asked about it before the game against Liverpool. we've seen that that lack of possession has been a real thing for Chelsea this season. And maybe if you've got a 35 year old up front, that lack of possession that they're going through at the moment probably does become an issue. I don't know. Peter Rutzler: Yeah, we talked about this on on previous pods about Alonso's style. I'm curious to know what you guys think of it so far, because it doesn't feel like we're near what Alonso wants his team to look like. But also we're not quite sure it's become a little harder to know where he's trying to get to. I think even even in this Carabao Cup game, the fact he did switch to three central midfielders, which he in fairness he had said he might do, he would consider doing, but to have Jordan Henderson, Moises Caicedo and Romeo Lavia, who did finish 90 minutes, which feels like a milestone. It feels like we're seeing more and more of him. But to have those as a three, it did feel like a sense of I'm trying to get more control. Something that he has said as well that he doesn't feel like you can get so much in the Premier League. He's, you know, he feels it's almost impossible to do that consistently. But what do you think of his style of play? Like from what you've seen? Are is is this less possession approach? Is this a more pragmatic approach? Does do do they need to be so high in high in planes with such a high intensity? what's what what's been your early impressions? Paul Coldham: I think I think you do need to bring a high intensity to to Premier League games. That's where a lot of them get over the line. people have watched a lot of them. I've done two of their two games in the last week at Bournemouth as well. And it was something that Una Emory was speaking about last night. The the intensity that they play with and the energy that they play with is is sort of key to everything they do. And they're obviously having a fantastic time at the moment. And it it helps them raise their level against teams they they shouldn't really be. Or wouldn't have historically thought they'd they'd be able to beat. So I think you need that to to compete, let alone to succeed in the Premier League at some intensity and a very high level of it. I think it sort of tallies with the S of our situation. Clarity is is is what you want. You mentioned it there that we don't really know where we're going outside of what we all thought would be they're gonna play a back three and that's about it. But now that's obviously much more more fluid and and changing between them. And I think there's there's a few players in there that that will prefer to be playing in a in a four to a three or a five or however it it ends up looking on the pitch. I think control has to be the aim, really. I don't think as a a Chelsea manager you can set out your store to be a a counterattacking side. And I don't think that's something that in the long term fans will will accept unless you're going out and doing it and winning absolutely everything, which they're they're a fair way off. At the moment. Maybe that is where he's trying to get to eventually. And with the squad they've got, it's just a bit of a long road there, or with the injury issues they've got, it's a bit of a long road there. but I think that needs to be the clear aim and and that needs to be the direction they're going in. But it's it is all, you know, after the the very entertaining and and chaotic start to the season, it is still a bit all over the place and unclear where they want to be going and and how they want to get get there at the moment. Peter Rutzler: It does also feel a bit defined by the the McPhee factor right now, doesn't it? they're conceding more goals from set pieces than anyone else, but a lot of their goals are also coming from set pieces. And actually, the game last night you had you had a penalty that was well for both teams. and there's Jacob: Thanks. Peter Rutzler: the second and Liverpool's one obviously coming from from a corner, given away by by Wesley Fafana. Jacob, what have you made of the early Alonso football? Jacob: Yeah, the start was really exciting, wasn't it? the game, that first half at Arsenal, they hinted at being a proper side. They caused Arsenal a lot of problems and that first half is maybe one of the best periods of 45 minutes of football that think that collectively two teams have put together this season. It was really, really exciting, really good. game of football and Chelsea on the counter attack that day were absolutely brilliant in the first half. When Arsenal got control of that game, it became a different story and they were kind of held at arm's length. So I think that when they have space, Chelsea, this Chelsea, when everything is there for them, when the front players, the first choice front players are there. They're very, very exciting to watch and they will be clinical. Those guys will score goals. We saw that against Bournemouth where did Chelsea control that game? Probably not, but Bournemouth made the mistakes and Chelsea repeatedly punished them. But has it been consistent? Do we absolutely know what he wants to do? I I'd side with both of you that I don't think so on either point. is counter-attacking on its own a sustainable way for a top side to play? think that probably the last 10 or 15 years of football across the board really, and in the Premier League as well, we'll tell you otherwise because it's been so influenced by the pep way of playing and possession being king. yeah, okay, things have slightly moved away from that and you did see pep, You did see Pep slightly become more direct last season and appreciate that shift and talk about how football was now, you know, the the Premier League, the style of the Premier League is now the likes of Iriola. And I forget the other ones that you mentioned, but Iriola was someone who was obviously very prominent in your head because of that pressing, that pressing style. Within that, I think if you look at the possession stats, the Arsenal still really high up and they're the best side. they're the best side in the Premier League. They're not like a classic Guardiola side, they control the ball. And currently Chelsea don't do that under Alonso. Now, is that a function of his way of playing? It's hard to know partly because he won't say, but it's also hard to know maybe because of personnel. Do we think that they have? controlling midfielders? mean, they obviously sold a passing midfielder this summer to Manchester City for 125 million in Enzo Fernandez. Would he fit into this current system at Chelsea? Maybe not, but I think that very obviously they didn't replace him because they didn't get who they wanted at the end of that window. And would it be fair to judge Alonso once he's got that kind of player in? definitely an argument for that. think there's an element of that being a major issue for him. Because I think as good a player as Henderson has been in his career, think we all know he's not that type of player. Lavier potentially could be, but he's so in and out in terms of fitness and Barco is completely untested. So that's just a major part of it that I think has been a weakness. it maybe throws in some context to the way that Alonso's been trying to play and the slight handicap that he has. I it's interesting on Tuesday, I did say to him, know, though at the same time, given the type of player that you were and the type of teams that you played in, you know, remember that he played for Pep at Bayern Munich and he played in those great Spain teams that just... had the ball all the time in the Euros and the World Cup, I would have thought that you would be more focused on possession. And he kind of gave an answer a little bit and did acknowledge that they need more control, they need to treat the ball better. But he at the same time still didn't really give too much insight into it. It's hard to get through to him at the moment, I think. Peter Rutzler: Yeah. Jacob: think fans are finding that a little bit hard to understand. Paul Coldham: I was gonna say I think that I think that's the biggest Peter Rutzler: Yeah, and I don't think that helps the noise, does it? Paul Coldham: issue, isn't it? With everything we've spoken about tonight, issues with Esteval and different things, and there have all there have clearly been some exciting and and and good things about what Alonso's done. The biggest problem has been understanding it all and getting some getting him to open up and talk about it and explain things in a in a more in depth and engaging way. I think that would go a long way to to winning any uncertain fans over, maybe not the chap that called into Talksport asking for him to go last night. He's probably a lost cause. But those that are unsure, to hear a bit more from him would would solve a lot of these problems or at least calm them down. And, you know, it's not just him. We all three of us go to various different press conferences and know that managers not saying too much is is very in vogue at the moment compared to maybe 15 years ago. But I think to open up and maybe give a bit of detail would would solve a lot of issues. Jacob: mean, on the control point, Peter Rutzler: So what you Jacob: I guess that, sorry, Pete, just that he might argue that actually I put together a pretty controlled performance last night. We limited Paul Coldham: Mm. Jacob: Liverpool and then I'm completely undone by personnel issue in the, my 75 million pound centre back just puts his hand in front of his face at the corner and they concede a stupid penalty two minutes after getting a stupid penalty, which, you know, they've put together. you might say a really good, clever away performance because they're 1-0 up at Atfield and then they do something stupid. Peter Rutzler: But yeah, and that's that's part of it because if he comes out and goes that I was actually quite pleased with a lot of X, Y, and Z that I saw last night, then maybe we'd get a bit more of a sense. 'Cause also I think his Leverkusen teams were generally pretty controlled. Like you there there wasn't this kind of chaos. Real Madrid's a different thing unto itself. But and also maybe in what you're saying, Jacob as well about midfield, it's why we've seen him toy with using Barco. he's I think we maybe seen more of him than I thought we would. I know he didn't he came off the bench last night, but he he did play in that Brentford game. And actually that Brentford first half, which I've I I've mentioned before on a pod, but I did think that was one of their better halves, even though it was incredibly boring and didn't create very much. But considering the sort of chaos that had gone in the previous games, that basketballness of the games, it felt like it was a bit more, I don't know, controlled, stable with him. And and maybe you're right, maybe that that would allow him to do more and to to move his style into a direction that we can maybe see a bit clearer. But it does sound like what you're saying is we should name this podcast Xavi Alonso Tell Us More. Paul Coldham: Yeah. Jacob: It would be nice. mean, I might be spoiled because I speak a lot to Thomas Tooke with England and if you ask him a tactical question, then you get like a 20 minute answer back with, and it's very intense. Paul Coldham: We don't need that. We we definitely don't need that. Jacob: No, he'll still, like he'll, you know, in the summer when we were with Tukul and you would ask, you know, might ask him what he was happy with, what he didn't like, and he'll start telling you that, you know, he'll start dropping in things about the left side. I thought I cracked it in the first game. And then in the second game, just all started, it it wasn't there. and I had to reconfigure it and we didn't have this and we didn't have that. We didn't have underlaps, we didn't have overlaps and we didn't have connections on the left side and everything. And you're soliciting to the guy and you're understanding what, while the team might not have been working, you're understanding what it is that he wants and he telling you Paul Coldham: is seeking to do, yeah. Peter Rutzler: Mm. Jacob: why it's not working. He's a special case as Chelsea fans know that is exactly what he was like when he was here. But it does help and that kind of thing, it helps us, but it also helps fans understand. I'm not just saying this from the perspective of a journalist who wants better copy. I think what we all can come away from it and what we all want to understand is why is Esther Vowell not playing? And I think the fans want to understand that and currently they just don't have answers. I think he was asked about it last night. And it's a kind of vague wishy-washy answer about, he must be, I think he was saying, you know, he probably isn't very happy at the moment. Yes, that's kind of it. Well, it's just kind of stating the obvious, isn't it? Peter Rutzler: Hmm. Is there a degree to which he's sort of feeling his way into this as well? Because he has come across as very cautious. It has felt almost very a lot of his answers are incredibly considered. Obviously we're in the the press room every week. Like, do you think there's an element of him just trying to work out what he can say, what what he says and what kind of reaction it will trigger? Is there is there an element of where we need to actually just cut him a little bit of slack where it's like the first few, I don't know, months of being in the role and just trying to work out the degree to which he can cause noise by saying certain things. he did also come out afterwards yeah after the game as we were criticising him for and say, look, this was the least important competition for us. It's almost there there is a not say a mindfield, but there are things you say and things you don't say. There is an art to it, right? And maybe there's an element of learning that in and how to do it with with with the English media. Paul Coldham: there might be and and he might suddenly turn into this incredible communicator that that gives you this this fantastic detail exactly when it's needed. But it I think you can always tell quite quickly with managers whether there's someone that has it or or someone that that doesn't. And like Jacob said, that's not just going there wanting a really good line from them or some really good copy from them. It's it's having that understanding that the power of what they say and and how it can shape things and how it can can control stories, how it can prevent stories or issues cropping up. and you know, Arteta might Alonso might suddenly transform, but at the moment he does feel a bit more Mikel Arteta. There's a bit of a Freudian set there where in where, you know, Arteta is quite happy to give out absolutely nothing when he's in front of a a camera or a room of journalists and that's the way he wants to run his club and he's been successful in doing it. So it It it's a very hard thing for I don't think any of us would like to be sat up there every week and having to do all those press conferences, but there's definitely an art to it and I think it's something that you have a a more natural understanding of. Peter Rutzler: Just a couple of other things to to wrap up before we we finish. Because Jack, I know you've got T V duties. You're a T V star Paul Coldham: Yeah. Peter Rutzler: these days. Sky Sports favourite. Max LaCoir picked up a hamstring injury. It didn't look great. Obviously, we'll we we'll get an update on how serious that is. He's had an interesting interesting start so far. I think he's had some good moments, but I think he's had some quite difficult games as as well. And Even that balance at centre half, particularly when playing with a three with Colwell on the left, it does that necessarily suit him? Do you think we'll see Colwell now go back into the middle where obviously Enzo Moresco spoke about him wanting his him being his a very good central centre back? What how big an impact could that have? Jacob: Yeah, I guess the question would be that if Colwell goes into the middle, then who plays on the left? Should it be a back three? Because he was very strong, pointing out the Lanzon on Tuesday that he did not play a back three against Tottenham. It was a back four. But if he does that, then who would be the candidate, I guess, to play on the left side of that? Should it be a back three? I guess The most obvious one in my head would Peter Rutzler: Pato? Jacob: be Hato. I think Ache and Pong potentially could switch around as well. I think he's quite versatile. And by the way, thought he had a pretty good game. I think it got more difficult for him against Tottenham the longer it went on and he was ultimately culpable for the second goal. I thought that on Wednesday night, he initially, I think he had quite a lot of problems with Engamoa. and who wouldn't the way that he moves. think eventually he actually kind of worked out and looked pretty good against him. And I think he sort of ended up keeping him quite quiet. And also he's quite powerful when he gets going as well, when he moves forward at Chim Pong. So I think he's just, he's a little maybe a little positive to come out of the game the other night. If he could kind of work out how to deliver a final ball, because it's currently a little bit. disappointing then. He potentially looks like quite a good option there. it's just, it does feel like a problem with Lacroix given that he's been, you know, the one who's played in the middle and him being out, does it suddenly force him to start playing Fafana, who's such a naturally gifted player, but makes so many ridiculous errors at this point. And it's been four years of that now. It does feel like a potential... If they were playing a good side on Saturday, you maybe would worry for them. Peter Rutzler: And just quickly, Jack, as well, good night for for Mike Penders, considering the difficulty of his debut punching the ball into his own net. He had a pretty solid game, I thought, all round. And robbed really of a sort of a penalty shootout victory moment. I know he he took he got it went the wrong way with a few of them, but then made the save that could have won could have won the game and yeah, we're maybe let down by some of some of those penalties that followed. Paul Coldham: Yeah, I think it was something that was put to to Alonso in the in the post match as well that that is quite a response because we've had such a narrative with with Chelsea and their their goalkeepers since this ownership of have come in really, the way they've rotated through them and had so many on the books that you know this was just another one that came in and and would make a massive massive error, which is exactly what he did when he was was thrown in after Martinez's injury, but made a couple of fine saves during during normal time and obviously like you said mentioned got that that moment in the shootout making the save and looked to have thoroughly enjoyed that stopping Graven Birch as well. So, credit to him. He I everyone, there were a lot of pieces when he came in, talking him up as someone that could be a a a big figure for Chelsea going forwards if he gets the chance, whether that's this season or or in years to come with when Martinez eventually departs. So I think to come in and have that that huge error against Tottenham would have really knocked his confidence. And then to have to go into somewhere like Anfield is also another big thing to deal with. So when we're talking about, you know, Alonso wanting to see responses from players, that's a a very good one. Peter Rutzler: Well, in terms of home debuts, I think you lads have not punched the ball into your own net. So that's a good start. Bodes well for the podcast going forward. Thanks both for for for joining. we'll be back for another episode. Do like and subscribe and if you have any questions, you can send them in to us on our socials and we have an email address as well. Just check the description below for that. I think it's Chelseapresspod at gmail dot com. Look at that. I do remember my own email. Beautiful. All right. We'll see you at the press conference tomorrow. Are you both there? Paul Coldham: I am, yeah, safe drive back. Peter Rutzler: that out crowd yet. hopefully I haven't burnt out the battery by leaving the light on in the citron. that I've this is this is not the kind of place I want to be left in the middle of the night. So yeah. Thanks for putting up me. I think the I think the audio is hold which is great. But yeah, we'll we'll see you guys next time.