Latest / Radically Genuine / 147. Trauma, Healing and Transformation with Author Lindsay Gibson

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147. Trauma, Healing and Transformation with Author Lindsay Gibson · Radically Genuine

• Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (00:01.322) Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. am Dr. Roger McFillin. I have spent years immersed in a system that attempts to categorize human suffering into neat diagnoses and prescribe standardized treatments and drugs. I believe many well -intentioned efforts have occurred and of course not so well -intentioned efforts to try to diagnose and quote unquote treat trauma. And many of those, I think, are limiting of our understanding of the human spirit's capacity for transformation. What if in our rush to pathologize pain, we're overlooking the profound wisdom and growth that can emerge from life's most challenging experiences? I've had the privilege of walking alongside individuals who have endured unspeakable Time and time again, I've witnessed something extraordinary. These survivors often emerge as some of the wisest, most compassionate people I have encountered. Their journeys don't fit neatly into diagnostic categories or treatment protocols. Instead, they reveal the awe -inspiring potential for human beings to transform suffering into profound insight and purpose. In fact, their experiences help us move beyond the clinical model of trauma and recovery and how the experience itself can be a catalyst for spiritual awakening, how pain can birth empathy and how the darkest moments of our lives can lead to an expanded capacity for love and connection. I was recently a guest on Ali Beth Stuckey's relatable podcast released on July On the podcast, I revealed the story of a sex trafficking survivor I worked with who experienced a profound spiritual awakening when she was visited by God during a series of traumatic sexual assaults and violence. He turned everything into love and allowed her to see her perpetrators own violent histories, which allowed her to develop compassion. She was essentially protected against the horrific consequences of such horror. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (02:31.136) And instead it led to a transformation in her life. I really do this, but I decided to check out some of the comments when the relatable podcast was released on YouTube and came across today's guest. You can say it's a coincidence, a synchronicity or divine intervention, but I was exposed to her work and read one of the most powerful memoirs I've ever been exposed Her name is Lindsay Gibson and her first book, Just Be How My Stillborn Son Taught Me to Surrender, won the Book Excellence Finalist Award in 2018. She's been featured in Elephant Journal, Green Child Magazine, and Self Magazine. She does a number of other things, which I'm sure we'll get into. As I was telling her before we hit record, it came to last night and I had yet to read the memoir. I was actually exposed to her work through other things she's done, reading her website and had a good idea about, you know, what had happened, but I didn't really get into the memoir until yesterday. I read it all last night, woke up at 4 .30 in the morning to continue reading it. It was compelling. I found myself in tears, but also experienced profound hope and joy. Her experience is not new to me as it mimics the experience of others I have worked with who survived trauma. These stories are not prevalent in our mainstream news. They're not going to be taught to medical professionals. They're certainly not part of the curriculum for clinical psychologists, professional counselors, and therapists. Yet these stories must be told. These conversations must be had. Not sure exactly where this conversation is going to take us today, but I admire her courage. for writing the memoir and her willingness to come on today and speak about it. Lindsay Gibson, welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. Lindsay Gibson (04:35.288) Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (04:38.124) Well, let me just let me just first kind of just ask the question you decided to comment on the YouTube video for the podcast for Ali Beth. Are you typically somebody who watches Ali Beth's podcast or listens to it? How'd you get exposed to and what led you to just comment? Lindsay Gibson (04:58.414) I have watched quite a few of her shows and I've enjoyed many of them. So I could say that I'm a regular with watching what she puts on. And I came across her by a friend who sent me one of her earlier shows. I think it was about maybe six months ago. And so ever since then, I've just been watching. And I really enjoy the different perspectives that she puts up and the different guests that she has on. She really has a wide range, I think, of different interviews and different topics that she covers. And so when I watched your episode, I was hooked. I was absolutely hooked because of some of the things that were spoken about I could definitely relate to with my own story. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (05:44.588) So you felt compelled to write in the comment section. Do you typically do Lindsay Gibson (05:50.132) I have in the past with other shows, but it's not something I do every time. And I just felt really drawn to do it. like I said, I recognized some of the things that were spoken about because I experienced them myself. And I wanted to comment just so others could see that there is hope. So that's why I did. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (06:17.25) Yeah, I'm so glad you did because I would have never been exposed to you. so your, your book starts out in it. think it's compelling right from the beginning because I think you're, you're 11 years old and you're speaking to your experiences as an 11 year old girl. And some of the things that you had gone through as far as like maybe this connection you have to a spiritual world and how information is provided to you. Can we start at the beginning and get a sense of what it was like for you when you were a young girl? Lindsay Gibson (06:20.259) Right. Lindsay Gibson (06:45.102) Absolutely, yes. One of the things that I noticed about myself as far back as I can remember is that I always had a hunch or a gut feeling before things would happen. And as a young girl, I always thought they were stomach aches. So I would always go running to my mom and I would say, have a stomach ache. And she'd be like, okay, because she knew it wasn't actually a stomach ache most of the time. and she would have me sit down, drink some water, and then she'd say, what are you feeling? And she would try to help me link those stomach aches to, you know, this bodily sensation to a feeling. as a little girl, was like, I'm not sure, you know, it was hard for me to understand. But then think something would happen, whether it was something small or something big. And I would say, I had a stomach ache right before that. So it kind of became a theme in my family, starting as far back as I can remember, maybe the age of six. So, and it happened often. So I was definitely, definitely in tune to my body. Just didn't understand it, you know, as a child. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (07:53.588) As if you were alerted to something that was about to occur, like a message that you were, you were feeling maybe it was an energy that you were able to experience, but it's almost like you knew and you actually opened it up. The book by talking about, you know, walking into your, your home and your parents informing you that they were going to separate. Lindsay Gibson (08:15.234) Yes, yes. I had, and I wasn't feeling good right before that. I also would have dreams, very, very vivid dreams to where, you know, we've all experienced vivid dreams, but mine almost felt like I'd wake up confused. I'm like, wait, was I asleep? Was that, was that a dream? That's how vivid it would be. And I remember, and I don't know, I did not share this part, but the night before that happened, I walked into my parents' room around, or my mom, my mom was the only one in there. was like four o 'clock in the morning and I got into bed and I woke her up and I said, is daddy moving out? And she wanted just to put me back to sleep because it was so early in the morning. And then later on, as you read in the story, that's exactly what they were about to tell us. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (09:02.412) So it seems in a lot of ways, this was a little bit more of of a burden, kind of a curse than anything necessarily that you saw as a blessing. Is that how you experienced Lindsay Gibson (09:12.694) As a small child, yes, because I felt different and I felt I never responded to my friends. You know, there's drama growing up amongst friends and as you grow, especially through middle school and high school. And I often found myself taking a backseat and just observing a lot. And I always felt different. And it kind of bothered me when I, you know, until I reached adulthood. because I didn't get it, I didn't get why I couldn't respond to things. like everybody else seemed to. Why gossip always made me uneasy because it's almost like I could feel what the person they're gossiping about was feeling. And it didn't feel good. So I'd never wanted to participate. But I wanted to fit in. So it was hard for me to understand it. And I often pushed it aside, especially in my teen years. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (10:07.692) So I am curious to know how you think about it now as an adult. Lindsay Gibson (10:12.502) I definitely understand what it is now. I understand how I am. I think we're always growing and learning who we are all the way through our entire lives. So I can't say I know myself fully yet. But I definitely understand how to, it sounds a little, maybe a little strange, but protect myself from diving in too much as an empath because it could really start to make me feel. sick just like I did as a child. so I often find myself, and I'm a writer, so everybody says you're a fiction writer, you're recluse anyway, but I really enjoy my alone time and because that's what I reflect. So if I meet people or I hear about something or a friend calls me because they have a problem or I'm dealing with something because I have three daughters, I always find myself going by myself so I can really absorb it and understand I didn't have those skills or those tools growing up. So I'm okay with it now. I've learned how to handle Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (11:18.178) I don't know how much you are connected to the greater mental health world, but one of the things that I think occurs in our modern culture is the, pathologize people who experience their emotions intensely and people who are like you, you can use the word empaths, but you know, I see it as this amazing gift where you do have the ability to tap into the energy of those around you to feel what others feel. And when it's harnessed, in a direction that can serve yourself and serve others. I mean, I do see it as a powerful blessing, but often just like when you were younger, there's like this judgment of the experience, like I'm different or it's a burden or it's too much. And then you enter into the medical system and the medical system is kind of kind of communicated in the same way. Like we now uniquely view mental health as somehow the absence of any intense emotion. And some of that intense emotion as you so, you know, artfully communicate throughout your memoir, you know, are powerful in this transformative journey for you. And I just want to get your before we get into your into your story, I am kind of interested to your thoughts and like how the general mental health and medical system, you know, has traditionally thought about someone like you and what you experience. Lindsay Gibson (12:36.468) I have always had a very hard time finding a therapist that could really listen and understand what I was trying to convey and how I was trying to convey it and explain myself. I did end up finding one and I do acknowledge her at the end of my memoir because she finally was able to go away from the typical, because I was finding every person I would seek help to. to talk to, they would just give me the same methodic answer and suggestions. And it didn't sit right. And I was like, are you listening to me? Are you hearing me? Because everybody sounds kind of like a robot. And I don't want to speak poorly about people, but that's what it felt like. Everybody's giving me the same, like the reading from a textbook. And I never connected to anybody until this one therapist finally It's like she didn't go by it at all and she was able and this was right after I lost my son. So I really needed somebody to talk to and she got it. She got it. Finally. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (13:44.894) And was that part of the process for your healing? Did the therapy itself assist you in Lindsay Gibson (13:51.242) It was one part, one part, because talk therapy, in my opinion, it can only go so far and it only went so far, definitely was needed during, you know, at the time, but it was only one of the many healing modalities that I've done. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (14:07.594) Okay, well, let's start it off. I think we should probably start in chronological order, although your book is not in chronological order. No, I mean, that's that was the the beauty of it. And that and that's what made it so compelling is the way it was written. But let's Lindsay Gibson (14:17.583) It's not. Sorry. Lindsay Gibson (14:28.504) Well, I had a memoir coach and she's written many books herself, she's a professor and she teaches how to write memoir. And she said, you do not have to write your memoir in order. And I was like, here we go. Cause I thought that was fun. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (14:44.546) It was. Let's just start with age 16. And if you can kind of just start there and tell the audience your story. Lindsay Gibson (14:53.646) So my mother at the time was a nurse at Yale New Haven Hospital. we had to, and she was single mother at the time her parents had divorced. And my brothers were already in college, so it was just me and she couldn't do the commute anymore. So we had just moved to a new town from a very tiny town to a much larger town near New Haven. And that was hard, 16 years old. And I was trying trying to find my way, make friends and just accept that I'm starting a new high school my junior year and it's gonna be okay. And I was, I was meeting new people and everything was going okay until that one night where I found myself, was, and when I speak to high schools, I always, I was at the wrong place at the wrong time. It doesn't excuse for people's behavior, but that's essentially what had happened that night before I walked into that building. And so if you'd like, I explain what happened or, know. Yes, so I was being driven home that night. And this was a girl that I had just kind of met and we had only hung out maybe a few times, but you know, she was fun and she was she was definitely adventurous, something that I coming from a very small town, I was not used to, but Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (15:56.738) If you're comfortable doing so, Lindsay Gibson (16:18.382) was intrigued. was 16 years old. So I thought, she's fun. Let's hang out with her. And she had asked me that night, do you want to sneak into a club in New Haven? And I said, no. was just way too... I said, it's a Sunday night. My mom's waiting on me to come home. So she goes, okay, I'll drive you home. So she made a stop and she said, hold on a minute. I'm going to go inside real quick. Just stay right And I'm like, okay, and I didn't really know where I was yet, because like I said, I'm still getting to know this town. So I'm waiting. And I started to get nauseous, which as you can see from our earlier discussion, there goes my intuition. But at 16 years old, I was I remember feeling aggravated. I just want to go home. I did not have a cell. We didn't have cell phones back then. And so I couldn't call my mom to say, hey, could you just come get me, which I wanted to do, but I had no way to do that. And it She was in there for a while. And I remember as I was thinking about going to find her, I got more and more sick to my stomach. Then I thought it was actually sick. Like maybe I am getting sick. So I go in there, it was only a three -floor, tiny apartment building. It wasn't huge or anything. So I thought maybe I'll hear her if I go in there, because I saw which door she went And I was walking towards the door and I remember feeling extremely dizzy, like vertigo, like the world just spun. And I remember pausing outside the door and I said, okay, I'm not feeling good. So I definitely need to go find my friend. So I rush inside. Everything in my body was screaming, stop, turn around. But I said, I just need to find my friend. I'll hear her. Maybe I'll knock on doors. Cause now I'm starting to get some anxiety cause I'm like dizzy and That's when my attacker had seen me. He apparently had saw me go in and I found myself trapped in his apartment building and couldn't get myself out. And now I'm face to face with him. And he, I had come to find out he was a drug dealer. So she had been going into that building to buy drugs, I'm assuming, because I never spoke to her again after that. Lindsay Gibson (18:37.578) And he, if you look at him on the street, you would never guess, you would never guess, because I had come to find out he was a bartender and a bouncer in New Haven, looked completely normal. You would never guess that he was a monster like And I was trapped in his apartment for about three to four hours before I escaped. And escaping was, again, something that was done intuitively because it was the right moment that I literally heard the words run in my head. And I knew this is my chance. And I ran. And he happened to be on another side of the apartment. Like, I was able to run through it and out the door before he could stop me. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (19:23.49) Are there any details that you're unwilling to talk about as I, you know, ask some questions? Lindsay Gibson (19:30.444) Yeah, no, no, no, can, I can, you can ask me anything. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (19:33.73) Okay. So in that three to four hour period of time, know, somewhere along the line, you were sexually assaulted by him in the three to four hours. Was that immediate? In the timeframe, you know, I'm trying to get a sense of your experience with him and also, but you your internal experience within Lindsay Gibson (19:43.363) Yes. Lindsay Gibson (19:56.76) When I, when I was, when he first locked the door and he was a very large man, maybe about six, three, six, four, he was a bouncer. So he was very muscular. I was standing there and I would say, what, what do you, what do you want? Like, why am I in here? And I was trying to talk my way out of it. And all he did was smile. He didn't say a word. He just smiled. And I knew something was going to happen. and I remember my knees were shaking and the dizziness that I had before now full blast, I couldn't even see straight. And to him it was a game and he just kept smiling. It was, and I kept trying to get an answer out of him, but no words. He picked up a bottle of vodka and he said, he made me open my mouth and he just started making me drink it. And of course I'm coughing because drinking straight vodka is going to make anybody cough. So for I would say maybe a half hour, it was this game of just smiling at me, making me drink and just circling me like I was prey. And that's when he laid me down or made me get down. He never beat me up. He never threw me on the ground or anything like that that you might see in a movie or anything like that. It was just this game to him. Now I I almost threw up. remember I was really feeling it and I kind of fell over because I was so scared and I did not have my balance. And so I did end up with bruises on the side of my back only because I had fallen and I hit the coffee table. And that's, yes, he did rape me at that point. he, that's when he finally spoke and he said, I'm doing the world a favor taking you out of it is gonna do the world a favor, something like that. It was hard for me to hear him because I was so scared that I remember my heart was pounding and I could literally hear it in my ears. And so it was kind of hard to hear what he was exactly, because he was whispering. wasn't even like this. You see this man, he's thinking something loud and it was this whisper. And after that happened, he stood up and I ran to his room because I tried to run to the door, but he blocked me at that point. Lindsay Gibson (22:15.302) And I got into his bedroom. Now he's laughing and he just thought it and he was whistling. I remember I heard whistling and I did describe that in my memoir. And so I shut the door and he did have a lock on it, but it was one of those like flimsy turn kind of lot old door, maybe a seventies kind of door. was not a good lock. And I pushed my legs up against the wall and my back to it to try to lock it some more. And I just remember sitting there. And I said, what's going to happen? And he was whistling outside the door. He was tapping it. He was just doing this tapping because to him, this was a cat and mouse chase. This was a game. And as I'm sitting there, and I was in there probably for an hour alone just in his room. And by the time all that had happened, now I'm thinking maybe somewhere between two and three hours had passed because when when he had assaulted me, it was not a fast, like it was not this grab me on the street, assault me and I run kind of thing. was torture, you know, because it took a long time. And I remember I heard, I felt like I needed to look up. And that's when I looked up and I saw his landline phone. And this is something that I had battled my whole life. If only I just called 911. And the first person I called was my mom. I don't know why. I don't know what compelled me to do that. I even have had therapists say, why didn't you call 911? I don't have an answer for that. I wish I did. that, and I, you know, I battled myself for so long thinking I should have just called 911. I called my mom and I said, and now she's in a state of panic at this point, because I was supposed to be home. She had called my brother who went to a university nearby. So he came home and she was about to report me missing or just call the police at that point. But I called her and I said, can you come get me? I'm near a 7 -Eleven. That's all I knew because that was the only place that I saw outside. There was probably maybe four or five 7 -Elevens in that town. And I heard him laughing. And then I heard Lindsay Gibson (24:35.242) So then I sat there and I'm like, well, what am I doing? So I called my mom back, no answer. She must have either left the house or was on the, I don't know, but she didn't pick up. I'm like, listening to him on the other side. And I think in my mind, was saying, I need to call for help. I need to call again the police. have this phone, but I was so absorbed listening to him because I was terrified he was going to get in. He was rattling the door. He probably could have broken it. That's how large he was. He probably could have broken it to get in. And as I'm sitting there, now maybe another half hour goes by and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, what do I do? And I, at that point I stood up because he wasn't trying to break up the door. And I just remember my knees shaking and I literally, that's what it got silent on the other side of the door. And I heard run. And I did it. I listened and I quietly opened the door and I looked out and it was just this hallway. He wasn't there. And I heard noise in the back, which must have been a kitchen. I didn't have time to look around to see what he was doing, but he was not right there. I see the living room where he assaulted me and I just bolted. And luckily there wasn't a lot of locks on the door because by the time I got to the door, he had come back around. I opened it, ran down the stairs. And I thought he was chasing me. But, you know, I go right back out into the street. And I remember I heard those summer crickets. And to this day, and I do talk about summer crickets. And I ran to a bush and I was convinced he was behind me. But I think in his mind, it was game over because I was outside. I could scream. There was cars, you know, and I was hiding behind a bush and I stayed there. I don't know how And I saw he wasn't chasing me and I thought, okay, I'm going to get to the 7 -Eleven because I saw it down the street. It's like, let me get to the 7 -Eleven and ask for help. And I saw my mom and she must have gone. She told me she went to a couple other 7 -Elevens, but she, she was coming down the street and I was coming this way. And there she was. And she to this day says, I don't know what compelled me. Something was moving that car. Lindsay Gibson (26:58.912) and I found you. So that was how I got out. It was just by the grace of God. I think he held me through that whole thing. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (27:10.068) And when you saw your mom, did you tell her what just happened to Lindsay Gibson (27:15.342) I got in the car, my brother was in the backseat. My brother, of course, is angry. What is going on? know, what is going My mom was more calm. She was trying to stay calm because she can see I was really rattled. And I didn't say anything at first. I remember asking her, don't talk. And that because I was sick to my stomach. And she and I said, just bring me home. And she looked, she just kept because she didn't drive right away. And I thought he was going to come to the car. And I just said, drive, mom, drive. So finally she started driving because she was trying to talk to me. And we drove home and she said, I need to call your dad. Something is going on. I made them, here's another mistake that I wish I could turn around and do it differently. My mom goes to call my dad because she knows something happened. And it's now maybe late. My dad's not answering the phone. And I was in a daze. It was almost like because you have all this adrenaline when you're trying to fight for your life. then all of sudden the adrenaline, it's like it crashes. And I couldn't, my ears were ringing. It was very strange. And then all of sudden it just didn't feel like I was in this world. was, maybe it was a panic attack, I'm not sure, but I felt like I was a walking zombie and I walked into the bathroom and I filled up the tub and I just sat there a long time and my brother was on the other side of the bathroom door waiting on me and he was trying to talk to me. And he said, mom is in a state of panic. What happened? You need to start talking, right? And he's trying to help me. And my mom was talking to my other, she couldn't get ahold of my dad. So now she's calling my oldest brother and she's just in panic. And my oldest brother is saying, call the police. Something happened. You need to call the police. So I come out of the bathroom and trying to talk to me but I can't hear her. It's like she was in front of me but I couldn't hear her. And I went into my room and I laid down, my brother followed me, and I said, I just need to go to sleep. And she said, why are you talking like that? You need to tell me what happened. Where were you? She didn't even know I was in that apartment building. And my brother's sitting next to me and he's trying to calm my mom down. And I kind of fell into this exhausted, I wasn't asleep but I was definitely. Lindsay Gibson (29:40.258) I was just not with it. And then I looked at my brother's talking to me and I finally looked at him and I said, I want to, I want to kill myself. And that's when he ran to get my mom and he said, we need to go to the hospital. We need, we need to take her to the hospital. And so that's when we finally went to the hospital, which resulted in secondary trauma and how the staff and the doctors and the police officers treated me inside the hospital. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (30:04.492) Before we get to that part of the story, because it is an important one, you did resonate with my story that I shared about my client who was sex trafficked. Like there was something about her experience that felt familiar to you. Was that referring to down the line when we talk about the experience with your son or did it have something to do with that event? Lindsay Gibson (30:19.34) Yes. Lindsay Gibson (30:26.518) It was with forgiveness and it was with compassion for him and understanding people who do that. I had come to find out he now he he's been involved in a lot of things. He did it to two women at University of Connecticut was brought to trial. He was involved with a ring here and up in Danbury, Connecticut, a trafficking ring. He his list. goes on and on and on. And I just remember when I was listening to that episode and listening to how, you know, I didn't experience that during the attack, but I experienced it in my walk with forgiveness and moving forward afterwards. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (31:15.22) Okay, we'll definitely get there. think that's an important piece of this episode, but I wanted to, I didn't understand that that might've been something that was kept out of the memoir. So I wanted to just clarify. So you do end up going to the hospital and that experience also seems like a profound one and one that others have experienced too when they arrive. If you can kind of share that experience. Lindsay Gibson (31:36.906) Well, we showed up and my mom is hysterical and we need help, something happened to my daughter, and they're trying to gather and question and triage what's going on. I think it's a protocol of some hospitals, but they ended up separating my mom from me to question me and then question her. And they questioned my brother as well. And I saying to them, I want my mom here. I didn't want to talk without her, but they didn't want to bring her in there because they were questioning if it was her that had done something to me. And I kept saying to them, no, I want my mom in here. I wasn't even with her tonight. So they ended up bringing me back into a room and it was just me and the nurse who was coming in and out for a long time because they were busy that night, you know. And she kept saying, a doctor is going to be here, and a social worker is coming. And the nurse, that particular nurse, was my saving grace that night. Everybody else had treated me, questioning me. They drew my blood. They found I had alcohol, a lot of alcohol in my system. I mean, I had eye rolls. Like, were you at a party that you don't want to tell your mom about? You can tell me, like that kind of thing. Which apartment building were you in? And I told them, there's a lot of students that live in that. Were you with boys that were older than you? Like very, they were very condescending, very rude. They seemed irritated. And the nurse, she, I think she, she just knew and she got me a warm blanket. She came over and put her arm around me. She whispered to me, is there something we can do to help you, to help you talk? Because I just shut, when the psychiatrist came in, he didn't even look at me. He was asking these questions, right? And he was listening to the nurse and he, I remember he was playing with his pen and he said, know, he asked me if I was taking medication. He was asking my mom, did she take medication? Did she do this? And it was like, I didn't want to, and I shut down. I didn't want to tell them my story because of how they were robots. Lindsay Gibson (34:01.26) That's what it felt like. And then when I said something had happened in there, then they contact the New Haven police. The New Haven police were, it was like they couldn't be bothered with this. And the nurse said, we can do a rape kit test and have you showered? And because I took that bath, I said, yeah, I took a bath. And she said, okay. So then they had concluded they can't do a test or whatever. And I said, I don't want it. And I just wanted to get out of there at that point because nobody was helping me. And I started to get really, I was coming down from this, again, this adrenaline, this shock. And now I was just sad because I thought that's why I didn't call 911 because these people aren't going to help me. And I had so much anger after that. it just, that anger sat with me for years, years. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (34:59.81) So it's a cold, sterile, clinical kind of environment where there's a, know, there's certainly a hint of skepticism and viewing you to be the problem as if you did something to yourself and not the other way around, which would first assume that you were victimized and then treat you as such in a way that respects you as a human being, provides you, you know, compassionate care and knows that in a straight, you're in a state of acute trauma. And so the fact that medical professionals kind of approach people in that way is a systemic problem that, you know, we deal with in our country and in our healthcare Lindsay Gibson (35:43.126) Yeah, they thought I drank and went to hook up with older guys and regretted it. And then I, instead of just telling them what had happened, I shut down and I said, mom, get me out of here. And the only way they were going to release me is if I went to an afterschool program for drugs and alcohol. And I had gone from a straight A student playing soccer to couldn't play soccer that year because they put me in this program. And I remember the head of the program. after one day said, you don't belong here. And he wrote something up and he discharged me because he said, this is not where she belongs. Even the kids in there said, you don't belong in here. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (36:23.988) Insane. Yeah, it's insane. Did you tell your mom the truth? What happened? Lindsay Gibson (36:29.166) I did not for a year. stayed very quiet and I insisted that I should have called her to come pick me up at this girl's house. And I said, I'm sorry, mom. And she said, what were you doing in that building? And then because I had found out that there's a lot of drug dealing going on in that building, I said she was buying drugs and she was on her way to the club that night. And I'm sorry, I shouldn't have hung out with her. And I just kept saying that over and over. And my mom said, so nobody touched you. And I said, no. And she said, why were you so upset? And I said, well, I don't even remember what I said. I think I just said, everybody just wanted me to go downtown and do drugs with them and hang out and party. And I just didn't want to do that. it scared me, I just kept saying. And she didn't believe me, but she tried and tried and tried. And that's when she started seeking therapy for me to try to get me to talk And that began the road of trying to find the right therapist. And I never found one for years and years and years. But then shortly after that started the panic attacks, major, major panic attacks. I was sleeping with her. I couldn't even be alone. And she knew, she knew something happened, but I think she was just trying to help me through the panic and the anxiety. She tried her best. She tried her best during that time. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (37:54.988) So Lindsay, something important happened while you were at the hospital that we can't gloss over. And, you know, it's part of, think a larger story that we have to tell today, but can you speak to what happened in the situation with that one nurse or that image? Lindsay Gibson (37:58.2) Yeah. Lindsay Gibson (38:11.232) Yes, she, like I said, she was the only one, she was the only one who knew something was going. She was the only one who showed me any compassion, like I said, giving me a blanket, trying to talk to me as a human being instead of this object in a bed who, or some teenager who drank too much and is now coming to the hospital. That's how everybody else, that's how everybody, you know, everybody else was treating me and and how I was started and I, you know, I've had a therapist tell me, you know, these are just illusions that you're seeing. These are just you're just making up people in your mind and it's because of your trauma, you know, and you're seeing and hearing things as you know, you've always been this way. I've heard it all. But, you know, that one moment where you know, I hear it was hard for me to write that scene and also other scenes as well, because most people would, I mean, how did you take it when you read that? Were you like, you know, she's making this up or, you know, or, or it's like a dreamlike state. Cause that's kind of how, that's kind of how so many people take it. Especially post -trauma, right? I'm just curious with your psychology background, like how would you, yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (39:21.09) Absolutely not. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (39:33.838) How did I view it? I thought it was a spiritual guide or an angel. Yes, that's but I've had experiences that yes, so to me that fits with not only my own personal experiences, it also fits with experiences that others have had clinically. So as I mentioned in my opening, these things are certainly not discussed in the educational system. So if one did not have those experiences or was Lindsay Gibson (39:38.604) Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. like Lindsay Gibson (39:58.038) Right. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (40:03.308) deeply spiritual or, you know, connected to faith in God and a lot of these things, they're going to try to make a sense of it in the way that a psychology textbook would or a psychiatry textbook. And in Western medicine, you know, that experience is going to be viewed as delusional. Lindsay Gibson (40:22.04) That's why I asked. was just, you know, because you're a psychologist interviewing, I was just curious, but I had come, I at the time, of course, myself was thinking I might've been too hysterical to think straight and perhaps I'm just imagining. But then it was too real. It was too real. And then of course to hear, we don't have anybody. We don't have anybody by that name. Yes. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (40:51.298) So it was a male nurse figure, right? And what did he say to Lindsay Gibson (40:57.018) I, to be honest, I have to, I haven't thought about this moment in so long. and I've had so many more encounters with, you know, spiritually since that moment, that it's hard for me to, I'd have to actually go, I actually have to go back and see, because I, like I said, I haven't, I haven't thought about that moment in so, so long. and I, I just remember the shock. on the staff when I had asked for him to come back. I remember it was like, who? What are you? And then, and then that's when started the whole, the psychiatrist, you're, you're just not in your right mind tonight. You're just in, and again, and I'm like, okay, but because I've had so many more experiences like that, I can confirm it with my own self, but it was hard at the time. I was only 16. So I don't. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (41:48.704) Yeah. And, for the, for the audience perspective, you journaled a lot about your life. So you were able to write your memoirs by going back and reviewing what you wrote at that time. Because it said, it seems to me that the way that you were attempting to cope with what happened to you was to try not and think about what happened. Like to get busy, to get distracted, to throw yourself into your world. And so much about your memoir is your college years. Lindsay Gibson (41:58.968) Yes. Lindsay Gibson (42:02.572) Yes. Lindsay Gibson (42:10.818) Yes. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (42:18.368) But from what I remember since I just read your memoir, it was the male nurse figure was trying to encourage you to tell people what happened in a very loving and compassionate Lindsay Gibson (42:28.3) Yes. But so did the female nurse who had given me the blanket initially. They were both showing me that compassion. But you know, when you're in a hospital, you have so much staff coming in and out. And I had thought there was a change of staff or a change of nurse or a change, you know, because nurses come in and the nurses shift out. And so when I had saw her again after that, I remember thinking, okay, so I have two nurses coming to my room and that's when it was like, who? Who are you speaking to? But I think in that moment for that guide and her to tell me to tell my story, to encourage me to tell my story, nothing was gonna get me to talk in that moment, nothing. I had written it off. I was angry and all I can think about was get me out of here. Just get me out of here, because these people are not gonna help. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (43:25.186) If circumstances were different, do you think you would have told others? And what do you think that 16 year old girl needed in that exact moment? If it was the ideal situation to put you in a position to be able to communicate to people who could Lindsay Gibson (43:39.714) I needed them to not jump to conclusions so fast. needed them. I know they deal with a lot of different types of people that come in there. I understand that. It's an emergency room. needed them. First of all, I needed my mother next to me. I should not have been alone in that room as long as I was. And my mother got questioned too. She has a little bit of trauma from that too. Because my mother is the most loving, loving person. I needed them to just listen. I needed them to show me some human compassion and some emotion. It was like they were, there was nothing to them, you know? And like I said, I know it's an emergency room. I know that they're dealing with a lot, right? But that's not what I got. I got immediate judgment. got an eye roll. I got that I was a burden. You know, if you're not gonna speak, then move out of our way kind of thing. And I got... I even got snickered, I heard a cop, one of the policemen actually giggle or snicker, kind of like, here we go, like that kind. And how are we supposed to trust that there is help for us when that's the immediate, when that is our emergency response right there? And it really put a strong anger and, you know, anybody in a white coat, I don't want to see them kind of thing, you know, for a long, long time. Like I said, that anger that bubbled in that emergency room sat with me for over a decade. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (45:23.394) Now this, memoir is very much a love story. And when the way that the memoir was written was that the, experience was at the end. So you wrote what happened to you at 16 at the end, but, maybe it's because I was primed from whatever I was reading before, but it's almost like the, the male nurse was like the spirit of your husband, you know, your future, what would be your future husband? like that same level of comfort and safety that you experienced in that, in his presence. Lindsay Gibson (45:26.242) Yes. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (45:53.16) is what you later experience when you meet your husband. Was there any connection there? Is that just made up in my Lindsay Gibson (46:00.798) No, actually that is a very good connection. I've never had anybody point that out before because it really is. If you knew my husband and obviously you read the beginnings of our relationship, my husband is a very intuitive person. He's a very, he's very spiritual, intuitive, just like that guy that I had seen in the hospital. But no one's ever made that connection. I'll have to tell him about that because I think he would agree. And I agree too, because they both They're both very upfront. You know, my husband is as you can read in my story, he was, he's very direct, you know, he's very, he'll listen, but here's what he thinks kind of thing. and maybe if I had a little push, but with some compassion with the right, maybe if the social worker, cause that was the first person that came in was the social worker and she, I wouldn't say she was mean, but she seemed, she seemed tired and annoyed, you know? So it was, just kind of withdrew and maybe if she just gave me a little bit of a push or a little bit of showing me that she cared, I might've just started talking and then once I start talking, the story might've come out, you know? Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (47:13.858) And so there were attempts, because there's a gap, right? We don't really know what happens when you're 17 and when you're 18. We know what happens when you go off to college, but we don't really know what happens in those immediate years following the event. So it seems like you went to various therapists to try to address this, it just became, you abandoned it at some point and chose to just move forward in the way you wanted to move Lindsay Gibson (47:41.174) Yes, I actually began to forget the night. I did not forget that something happened. But the details of the night, and it was just my brain, I think, putting it somewhere else and saying, I'm just going to put this here because I couldn't filter or cope or deal with what had happened. I think the shock stuck with me for a long time. And I've come to find out, you know, I studied psychology in my undergrad. I've come to find out that that's a normal trauma response that people can actually forget. And people don't believe me sometimes. They're like, what do mean you forgot? I forgot. I did not think about it. I put it somewhere in my mind. And I thought to myself, I was still in the fight or flight. Let me graduate. Let me get out of Connecticut and just go. And all at the same time dealing with severe insomnia, severe panic disorder, and It was hard for me just to even get through my day. went for, like I said, I went from a straight A student to barely, you know, my senior year is a blur to this day. It was just get me out of here. Like I always felt like I needed to run. And in my mind, in my innocent 18 year old mind, I thought, if I just leave Connecticut, I'm going to get much better. Everything's going to be okay. Well, as you can read through part two, that's not what happened. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (49:07.316) Yeah, I think it's important for me to clarify some things because there's been some misrepresentation of what happens in the aftermath of trauma in the field of psychology over a number of decades. One of them is around the concept of repressed memories. And that is not what we're speaking about. It's not that, Lindsay, you completely the memory and it was outside of any conscious awareness at all. It's not as if it did not exist and it had to be recovered by a therapist. What we're saying is the way that you coped with it is that you chose to try to survive. And to try to survive was trying to move past it and to try not to think about it. What happens is that we do consolidate memories by replaying the event and it is processed. It's processed emotionally, but it's also integrated into our memory system. When that is not done because the event is so painful and a person enters into what's called avoidant coping, which I'll just call it survival. You you just kind of get on your life. There's no need to think about it anymore. I can just escape that part of it and not try not to think about it. It's not that you can't generate it. and that it didn't happen. It's just that you're coping in a different way. And what we know is that is a primary factor in why someone may develop PTSD symptoms. So about 80 % of people who are exposed to trauma don't necessarily develop PTSD symptoms. They have aftermath of trauma. There's normal and expected experience with it. But PTSD is different. PTSD is well documented throughout the course of your memoir about what happens. It's almost The body is not going to let you forget about it. And that is a survival mechanism in a lot of ways. So they'll come in the presence of flashbacks, hypervigilance, nightmares, strongly held beliefs that exist about, you know, the world, yourself and others. Many will overuse alcohol or drugs as a way of emotionally numbing or detaching from those situations. And so I just want to make the distinction because I think it's an Lindsay Gibson (51:08.76) Mm -hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (51:27.97) important distinction. And it seems like you did absolutely the best you could to survive and did some things very well. I mean, you're you had this what seems like an incredible support system of a group of friends and try to live your college life the best that you can almost like recreating you in a new image, disconnecting or detaching from that 16 year old self. Lindsay Gibson (51:51.426) Yes. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (51:55.894) But no matter how hard you tried, you weren't able to completely do that. So if you can maybe speak to, the best words possible, kind of what that experience was up in Boston. You started off at an all girls kind of academy and then transferred to Northeastern. And, you know, also, I love the love story about this, obviously, and to be able to describe the events that led to meeting your husband. Lindsay Gibson (52:25.792) Yeah, and when I wrote part two, because I divided my memoir in part one, part two, part three. And when I wrote part two, that's exactly what I wanted to describe. Well, we can read about post -traumatic stress disorder in a textbook, but this is what it was like personally. And that was my whole idea with that. And there was so much more I could have written, but there's only so many words you can put in a story. So I tried to, when I was going through my journal, my mom has all those journals. She has stacks of them. I tried to pinpoint the best parts that I could describe, the most accurate, or the most so people can understand. And so I had an idea, because I remember all my college years, but you forget certain things. But I'm going through the journals, and I'm like, I remember that. I remember this. And I kind pieced it together that way. But I wanted to bring in the friends. I wanted to show the support system, and of course, my husband. But I just remember my first day of freshman year, which I do describe in the memoir, because it's the most vivid out of all four years of college. It's just standing on that campus. Now that campus was gorgeous. was in Newton, Massachusetts, which is like just outside Boston. Gorgeous, gorgeous all girls school with the tree. I mean, it was just, but I wanted to be in the city. I wanted to be where the friends were, My parents, because I had been suffering so badly for two years with all of those trauma symptoms, they wanted to keep me home. And this was sort of our compromise. Well, we'll send you to this school, your oldest brother's up here, but we don't want you in the city. Well, I ended up transferring myself out, and I got to Northeastern anyway. But the first year, I'm glad I was at that campus, because I did meet my first roommate, and she was very helpful. but I kept my story silent and I focused on everybody else instead of myself. I never really slept. Like I said, I had severe insomnia. The flashbacks almost became just part of my life and this is just how it's gonna be. I didn't even identify them as flashbacks anymore. It was just my everyday and I focused on school. I am a good student so I was able Lindsay Gibson (54:52.074) rebound my grades and just really focus because I said I've got to focus now. So that's what I did. Everybody else's problems were mine instead of my own. Then I thought I'm going to study psychology because this is what I'm good at. I've always been in tune to other people. And plus it was fascinating to me. I really enjoyed it. then I thought, okay, end of my freshman year, I'm going to Boston. I don't want to go. Because we would always go into the city. So I started getting used to going into the city and I love the city. It's my favorite city. It's where I met my husband. So I transferred to Northeastern. My grades were good. And I think by that point, my parents did support it because they were like, okay, because they thought now I'm up there and they're in Connecticut. They don't see me every day. I got really good at lying to them. Everything's fine. So my mom thought, okay, things are getting better. She's getting better. But I really wasn't getting better. I was just really good at avoiding. and denial. And once I got to the city and transferred, mean, parties and the bars and the, you know, all the, all the things a lot of college kids do, wasn't like I was anything out of the ordinary with, with all that. But the drinking definitely helped me to like on the days that I was extremely tired or the anxiety was very bad. I was like, I'll just go out tonight and it'll be fine. So it became a like you said, a tool, like a mechanism to cope. Not a very healthy one, but for me, it got me through. But I was a responsible drinker. I would always go to class. I would always make good grades, and I worked. So to me, that was my justification. I'm responsible still. Definitely wasn't. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (56:42.048) I do want to transfer, know, as we move closer to kind of the recovery, redemption, the rebirth, all these experiences is that, you know, there's the... There's the underlying and very meaningful relationship of your life journey to a greater soul's purpose. And this gentleman that you keep running into with these blue eyes that really seem to captivate you. And this idea of being so attuned to what you feel. And then being able throughout the memoir, being able to communicate that stark contrast between going through PTSD and then what you would feel when you're in the presence of your husband, for example, or some good friends that are in your life and the safety that exists. That really speaks to me about the, you know, the vibration or frequency that exists that we're kind of communicating and putting out in this world. And I love that aspect of your life story. But I don't necessarily know where you are mentally at that time between the ages of 18 and 22, before you really enter into a, I guess it was 21, 20, 21, when'd you meet your husband? When'd you start dating? Lindsay Gibson (58:11.182) I just turned 21 when I Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (58:13.878) Yeah. So, you know, don't know where you are mentally and like thinking about life purpose or spirituality or relationship to God, but you certainly write it as, you know, this soulmate is coming into your life and that certainly experienced that way. So maybe you can kind of take the audience from Lindsay Gibson (58:34.702) Well, where I was mentally when I met him, I was mad at God. And my mom was a nurse initially, and then she became a pastor. So I was a PK. I was a preacher's kid. So my faith, my walk with Jesus was always strong up until I experienced what I did. And then PTSD took over, and then I got angry with God. And so when I had met my husband, although we actually lived within a block from each other for two years, before we actually said anything to each other. Always, and actually my roommates at one point had gone to a bar up the street, a Beacon Street, and they called me and they said, hey, come up to this bar. There's these really fun Irish guys up here. And I'm like, I'm busy with school worker. So I didn't, but that was them. And so my husband was always nearby. And yes, he's got these, all three of our daughters. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (59:06.71) You kept running into him, Lindsay Gibson (59:31.278) have his very blue, very blue eyes. And it wasn't even just the color, it was the way he would look at me. If you knew my husband, you'd understand it's just, he's an observer. He's just like me. But he does it in a very different way. And he's very intuitive. He, at 12 years old, heard the name Lindsay in Ireland. And he told his grandmother, who confirmed it to me before she passed away, I'm going to America because I have to find Lindsay. And he didn't know. who or he didn't know where, had no other, he just knew that name was always with him. And I portrayed a little bit of that when I had met him, when he said, finally nice to meet you. And he he knew I was Lindsay. And, but my, but my, my faith when I met him was, was very dull, very dull. And cause like I said, the anger was the dominant feeling that I would have most of the time because I was frustrated and I was even if I but I learned how to ignore it, you know, so whether you know, I would just hang out with friends instead, you know, and so if something would start to draw up or I had a dream or I would remember something or I try to think about something, I would just get immediately angry and shut it down and distract myself. It just became routine at that point. And I thought I had gotten really good at it until I met my husband who saw right through it. And he knew immediately upon meeting me that I was hiding something and I didn't even know I was hiding something. Because like I said, it was just Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:01:10.722) Okay, just for the audience, in the way that she writes the memoir, she's taking the subway or the public transportation she's running into on the street, and she's kind of captivated by this attractive guy that she sees with these stunning blue eyes, and there's, in the presence of the Boston Red Sox games, there's all these opportunities where they run into each other, and it's just kind of weird. And eventually what happens is you move into an apartment complex that he lives Lindsay Gibson (01:01:37.422) Yes. of my roommates was studying abroad in France at the time. Me and the other roommate, there was three of us living together, we went to apartment search. In Boston at the time, you would live in an apartment and oftentimes you were switching apartments a lot. Whether you go home for the summer or go to Morale and then come back and then get a new apartment. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:01:41.255) Right ups was it right upstairs from you? Lindsay Gibson (01:02:07.668) Students were not staying in the same place usually, you know, for the whole time. So we needed an apartment and my other roommate was in France and she had emailed us, just find whatever. She went to Boston University, I went to Northeastern and then our other roommate was graduated. So she goes, I don't care, just make it close to BU. So we started searching and the realtor was like, well, the apartment is getting remodeled, but you can see, we can go in there and you can look. Okay, so we go in And my roommate was talking to the realtor and I was walking down the hallway and I was looking at the bedroom. I was checking it out. And then I pushed open what was going to be my bedroom. I pushed open the door and there he was. He was on the floor laying. He was laying flooring and he was no he was I think he was sanding the bottom of the I think he was getting it ready to paint. And he for I just looked at him and I thought it's I said, no way, no way, is it that guy? And I didn't really talk about him too much. I just would be shocked every time. It almost became a joke. I kind of got creeped out a few times, especially when I saw him on the subway behind me. But he stood up and he turned around and it was like, I was drawn to him. I had seen him many times before that, but this was the first time we were in the same room. There was no me to run. couldn't, well, I could have left. I could have turned around. But how do you do that now that you're standing in front of him? And he's staring at me and he smiled. And then I remembered, I didn't share it in this scene because I wanted to make that scene special because it was the first time he and I were going to interact. But I got triggered. I got triggered by that smile because it, and it didn't occur to me why, but I said that smile and the way he's just looking at me was like my attacker that night. but I didn't make that connection at the time. I'm just looking at him. And I just, it made my heart race, but he also makes my heart race. so I couldn't quite, I couldn't quite put it together, but, but that was the first time we actually officially met. And it was magical. Yes. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:04:20.586) And he is from Ireland. So he has this thick Irish brogue, right? Where it's very distinct. And I was going to ask you, you actually started going there. I'm imagining as I'm reading this from my history of working with people who were sexually traumatized is that it's very difficult to trust another man. And you were in a relationship in high school, but you kept calling that relationship safe. Lindsay Gibson (01:04:47.854) Yes, he was my best friend. Yeah, yeah, he knew he was the only one who knew what happened. But he was 17 and he didn't know how to handle Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:04:58.124) So I'm just curious to know like how difficult that may have been. I mean, it's written romantically and I know that that's an important part of your story and how his presence made you safe and there's a soul connection that exists. But in the reality of it, was it much more challenging sometimes to be able to let your guard down with another Lindsay Gibson (01:05:21.164) Yes, and it's what caused us to split when my when our daughter was three because I I pushed him away too much. I it was like at the same time we're getting to know each other. We're drawn to each other. You know we we both felt it, but then there was the other side of me that just kept a guard up and. There was only so much he could do. to help me, I didn't realize at the time I had to help myself. And that was the directness that ended up coming out when I had finally told him something happened to me at 16. And he just knew. He said, I know. And as you can read in the story, he was very direct. Well, what are you going to, it's basically, what are you going to do about it from this point forward? It's over. What are you going to do about it? That was the first time anybody had ever said that to me or, because usually, when the few times that I would share something had happened to me, like when I finally told my mother and I finally told my brothers or my best friend, not very many other people really had heard the story from me. They were very different in their response. It was hugs and you're going to be okay. And, you know, we love you. He just looked at me with those eyes, just staring at me. And he's just like this in general. When you, when you say something to him, he has He takes a few moments to really process it. So I think he was processing. I didn't have details. I just said something had happened to me because like I said, I really kind of just shut it away. And I probably could have told him the details in that moment. I didn't want to. So I just said something had happened to me and it really hurt me and traumatized me and changed me and blah, blah, And I was like waiting on the hug. And I was waiting on him to say, okay, let's let's talk about it some more or just any other response than that. And I was shocked. And now it's, it's sort of a running joke between us now, because I still to this day didn't say, haven't told him you were right. You were right with what he had asked me, but he was. But I didn't want to hear that's not what I wanted to hear. And I was still in this Lindsay Gibson (01:07:38.708) victim mode that had kept me trapped in this cycle of PTSD, but I didn't know that at the time. didn't. So he just maybe should have done it a little softer, but his brogue is very thick. So when he speaks in general, he's very, he's just direct. That's just how he is. I don't think he meant it to come out like that. It just, for me as a trauma survivor, I'm like, why are you asking me I am living my life. I'm making good grades. I'm doing an internship. I was at the time that summer and I've got it together. That's how I felt. And he was like, well, yeah, I see that, but you're not, you don't have it together because he would recognize it during moments of intimacy. know, I, I took to this day, this is the one thing I haven't gotten over. I can't have anybody over my shoulder because my perpetrator was, like I said, he was circling me and he would come over my shoulder. So that one's still, I still can't have people do that. But in the beginning with him, it was much worse. I always was like this, know, crossing, I was just, I was like, I was a defense all the time. And I would do this when he would come in to kiss me, but like, I would kiss him, but my initial response was a knee jerk response. And then I would always beat myself up. Like, what am I doing? I want to be with this man. He cares about me. We're growing a relationship together. It was the farthest I had ever gotten with a man because before him, I was always the one -date wonder. I'd go on a date and be, that's it, and ditch him. And my girlfriends would joke with me, are you ever gonna get to know anybody? I'm like, no, I don't need to. And with Jason, was, we were just connecting and connecting and I wanted to, but I still had this, you know, and that's how he knew. He knew something had happened to me. He was just waiting on me. to tell him and he never asked for details that night or that night that I had told him. He was just more, he wanted to focus the conversation on me and how I was going to handle it from this point forward. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:09:47.013) And what is your, what was Jason's at the time, his relationship to spirituality and faith and God and how did he think about life? Lindsay Gibson (01:09:56.014) He is the number one person that brought me back to God. at the time when we were just meeting each other in college, we didn't really have faith talks all that much. We did, but not to where we would today. I was 21 years old, he was 27. We were just meeting each other. But after I had told him something happened that night, he started to me different. And he started to, because I think what he was trying to do initially was get me to talk because I shut down in that hospital and I had not really opened up until I met him. And he started to ask me about the things we talked about in the beginning of this podcast about my childhood and about my intuitive feelings. told me about what he told his grandmother. He started to like angle our conversation slowly, like around that. And it was through that and through him that I started to open up the side of me that got closed down before that happened to me that night. And, yeah, I'd talk to my mom about how I would have these feelings as a child. And he would say, yeah, I did too. He told me about his dream and we both had dreams about, I had dreams about my first two daughters. I did not have one with my third, although my oldest had a dream she was coming, because my dreams are a big part of my memoir. And he told me he had the same. He was born without any hearing in the 70s in Ireland and they didn't have a lot of surgeries back then to fix it, although he did have some. So he is, he can only hear like 20 % out of one ear. and maybe I think 30 or 40 percent out of another ear because he did have the surgeries. But he said the first seven years of his life, he didn't hear anything and he was always in and out of hospitals. And he really got into his faith then and he started to realize how intuitive he was. And he also started to push away the Catholic Church because Irish Catholic Church is a very Lindsay Gibson (01:12:11.298) very strict religion and it didn't align with him because he was sort of like a black sheep, sheep is what he'd always call himself. But it's because he started just to tap into other senses because he was born deaf, that it was his coping and it grew him into the man he is today. He never turned away from it. He just grew more and more with that. And so we started to connect about that in our stories. And again, dancing around what had happened to me at 16, just talking about everything else. what that did for me was it helped me to think about myself in different ways versus trying to always be in survival mode. I realized how exhausted I was because I was always just in survival mode. So it was nice to have him remind me who who I was outside of that. And I think that that's what he told me he was trying to do at the time. But he's not trained in it. He just was going with his gut with how to talk to me. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:13:16.45) We're going to fast forward a little bit. I know at age 21, you're pregnant with Lily, right? Lindsay Gibson (01:13:22.382) Yes, yeah, she's almost 18. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:13:27.162) And, you know, that's kind of the relationship that solidifies the two of you together and you eventually get married, Lindsay Gibson (01:13:36.982) Yes. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:13:38.338) And, the, I think the probably the most profound thing that we should, we should talk about is your, your, your pregnancy. and the loss of loss of your son. And so if you can tell that story and then, just given where we are with time, I mean, I could probably talk to you forever and, and I have so many questions, but I, you know, I realize there's only so much you can do in a certain amount of time. Lindsay Gibson (01:13:58.582) My memoir is packed, I know. Lindsay Gibson (01:14:05.91) Yes. Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:14:07.111) but I do want to focus on that transformation. want to focus on everything that you've kind of gone through with that loss and how it, how it's assisted Lindsay Gibson (01:14:16.974) Yeah, so we were surprised with Lily and we had her in 2006 and it was very re -triggering having to go back in the hospitals and deal with all that. I was so thankful that I had Jason through that whole thing and she was born and she was beautiful and she actually, going into motherhood stopped the drinking, it stopped the partying, it stopped everything and... I don't recommend having a baby just on the whim like that, but for us, she was a happy surprise and she came and for me, it was what I needed at that time. It really, really was. I mean, I got real focused and I started to realize how unhealthy I was. So that was great. And I had Jason, he was much older, so he was the working parent. And if it wasn't for him, I don't think I would have had to move home with Lily. And so... We had her and we had our final, finally when she was seven, we had our dream wedding. Cause I didn't have that when I was pregnant. It was very sick. So I, I didn't, we didn't really have a wedding. And then we went through a split up for a while. That was, that was about a year, but I needed that time to myself actually ended up being a good thing. Cause I really started to realize just where I was. you know, with my traumas and everything like that. But again, even then I was like, I know let's just push it aside. I got a daughter to focus on. I can't, I can't do this fast forward. We, we get back, well, we got back together and then we had our big dream wedding, his family, my family. was, it was wonderful in 2013. And of course we're talking about a second baby. You know, here we are, we're back together, we're married and you're done with school. and let's have another baby. And so we got pregnant with Joseph right away. I mean, immediately. In fact, think I was pregnant on our wedding day in July, like very early. And it was right around that time, and even a little bit before, I started having this reoccurring nightmare dream where, and I do describe it in the memoir, but I had it so many times. Lindsay Gibson (01:16:27.118) with the stage and the rose. then, you know, when I lost him, so he was, we lost him at 20, he was just shy of 27 weeks. And so he was born still. And right after I lost him, and this is something I also did not share in the memoir, again, for space -wise and just because the book would have gone on and on and on. The morning that I lost him, I had something called hyperamesis gravidarum where I constantly threw up. I mean, we're talking 50 times a day. I had an IV, a PIC line, home nurses, everything. And I describe in the memoir, I just need to get to him and holding him in it. It's all going to be okay. And the nurse had just left this morning and checked him. All was good. Took that nap, woke up. He's not moving. And they said on the line, just drink some orange juice. push your stomach, get him going. So I tried all that. My husband came in and he was, I never seen him cry up until, and he was sobbing. And he said, and he sat me down on the couch and I said, you know, Jay, can't, I can't get him to move. Like, you know, I think he's just sleeping and he, and he just sat me down and he was quiet and he was crying. He said, he's gone. And I was like, I just know he's not, you know. I go into this mode, no he's not, let's go to the hospital. So we went to the hospital and they confirmed it, that he was gone. My husband had a moment and I didn't share this, I could easily share this now, but at the time I was kind of afraid to share it for his family, because his mother is very, very Catholic, sorry, but she is and I don't think she would have accepted this, but to this point it's okay. He actually was at work and he looked over and he said, he saw, figure and he said, Dad, you need to tell her. And he said, tell her, wait, what? And then he looked again and he said, I love her. Tell her I love, tell mom I love her. And it was like he blinked out of it, he said, and he realized, and he got this gut feeling and he came home. And I remember he put his hands on my belly and he just said, he's not there. He just kept saying, so I called my wife back and I said, I'm coming in. She goes, okay, come on in. We'll, we'll take a check. She's not thinking anything of it yet. Lindsay Gibson (01:18:48.646) and that's when they confirmed it and then they put me right into the hospital too because at that point and a pregnancy you have to you have to deliver and they started that process and I just remember I remember after I screamed I was just hysterical and then I had that dream again and I had that dream many times and it was real. had to rewrite that dream so many times to try to get the right words so people could understand that. Yes, it appeared like a nightmare, but it was a really, it was kind of a telling dream too, if that makes sense. And then we had him and we got, and I did describe getting pregnant with Layla who's now almost 10. And we got pregnant with her about eight months later. So she was born healthy and pink and in my arms. this is also another moment that I heard a voice that said, push all the medical stuff away from her, push it away. And I didn't put this in the memoir. And now I know she's got a lot of disabilities and a lot of, she's very sensitive system and she's got a lot of issues that way. I said to the doctors, don't want shots. I don't want this. Keep her away. And that was just my mom intuition. And then after that moment, something in me shifted and all of us, it was almost like, she's here. She's alive. Okay. I can breathe now. And then I just dipped into this postpartum that I had never experienced with Lily. never, and you would think as a young mom, maybe I would have gotten a little PPD with her because it was such a big transition from college to mom. I never had it with her, but with Layla, I immediately started to grieve again for Jo. I didn't want to grieve while I was pregnant with her because I was so hyper -focused on checking her heartbeat. I had a home Doppler all day long and that when she finally came, it's like I handed her to my husband and then I sunk into this postpartum, which I tried to describe as best I could. And that was part three. Lindsay Gibson (01:21:11.816) And I had a lot of judgment for that. Well, here you are, you have your baby. Why do you have postpartum? What's wrong with you? I got a lot of judgment for Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:21:24.278) So there was a moment and you spoke about this throughout the memoirs when you were going through labor of your stillborn son that you did experience phenomenon, various phenomenon, excuse me, is probably the best way to describe it because I can't speak for you and what you experienced, but they were dreamlike or maybe they were in that stage before you really do fall asleep, know, that trans kind of like experience. Can you speak to what happened? Lindsay Gibson (01:21:38.146) Thank you. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:21:53.356) during the birth process, the labor. Lindsay Gibson (01:21:56.342) Yeah, and that's the very beginning of the memoir. That's where I decided to start the story was his birth. And actually, it's all of Jason's quotes that got shared with this memoir over and over the just be darling, just be and love is the reason we grieve. Those are all his. So and that he I mother Mary, and that's where the rose, you know, connection in that dream. And in seeing just the image of her. And again, it's hard to vocalize it because like you said, was like in this... They wanted to medicate me, like to drug me out when I was giving birth to him because most mothers in that situation would want that. They would want, just give me something. I don't care what, just anything so I don't feel anything and I can't think. Give me any anxiety. I didn't want all that. I never did. And I never did through PTSD either. And I just chose that. No, I don't want that. I wanted to be with him for this last moment with him. And so I didn't want to be drugged out. And so, because I've had some people say, well, were you taking any medication? No, I wasn't. And I was trying to sleep. It was a very long process. It took about a day to finally move him out. And everybody assumed, you must have been taking something. No, I wasn't. and I was in and out of this dreamlike state, but just the image of her and what I think she was trying to represent for me in this moment was so powerful. It was almost like I was coming against a wall. That's how I describe it to people as I was sharing my memoir and after it was published. It was almost like his birth, I had come against a wall. and I was coming to a decision, you're going to choose life and you're going to move forward or you're going to crumble. was almost like the grief, I could not ignore that. I ignored PTSD as best I could so I could survive. I ignored what happened to me at 16, but I can't ignore losing my son because I love him. And I was faced with such profound grief that now I'm starting to feel again. I'm starting to, the emotions are starting Lindsay Gibson (01:24:20.16) stir up in my system. it was, that's why my title is Just Be All My Stillborn Son taught me to surrender because in that moment, in that, in that room with the image of her with my husband by my side, speaking to me in a way that was so profound and all of it together, I was coming up to the wall that I described and, and I think I was afraid. And was afraid to allow myself to dive into that type of healing because was like grief just cracked it open. Like, and the light started to come in. That's the best way I can describe it. It was a teaching moment in a way, but it wasn't until I had Layla and I sunk into that depression that I finally faced the wall. You're either going to crumble or you're gonna choose life, you're gonna turn away. You're like, boom, you can't do this anymore. You can't live and conduct yourself the way you're doing anymore. so as you can see, it was a very drawn out process, a very long process, but I don't want anybody to ever think who's lost a child that I'm thankful for losing my son. I want him here. I think about him all the time. He would have been... So Layla's almost 10, he would have been almost 11. I want all my children here. But that experience is what unlocked a lot about my trauma to help me to actually move forward and choose Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:25:53.182) Yeah, there's this beautiful moment in a memoir. I could almost see it in my mind where, you know, you're staring into the eyes of Layla. And, and I think you mentioned that you could like see her soul. And, you know, that did, it appears to have like unlocked a flood of emotion, that, that you were experiencing. And, know, it does speak to a lot about what trauma recovery kind of looks like in real life. You know, it is facing it, is walking through it and it is fully experiencing it. And in that coming out the other side with a wisdom and a transformative experience, not that we would wish these events on anybody, as you well said, but we don't want to dismiss that how it's changed your soul, how it's altered your consciousness and how you experience life differently. And I can only imagine that, you know, your experiences with with your children are much different because of that. There's got to be some gifts in being able to so fully express gratitude and appreciation for the lives that you have. think sometimes it's hard for us to fully love unless we understand loss. maybe it's really hard to understand the preciousness of life unless we've been... Lindsay Gibson (01:27:10.412) Yes. Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:27:18.486) you know, face trauma and experienced those dark moments where we even questioned whether we wanted to live. Lindsay Gibson (01:27:24.93) Yeah, when she put her hand on me when I was nursing her and my dog, my German Shepherd dog was barking in the background. Because like I said, losing him started this process. started this, Lindsay, you have to change now. Like you have to, you can't keep going. And that moment, that particular day, it was like I was coming to head. Right. And I could I could hear my dog because he's very protective. He's German Shepherd. So think he sensed like something's wrong with mom. So he's barking in the background and Layla's screaming and heard she she's ready for food and I'm sinking to the floor outside her nursery as I described. And I I'm very, very thankful. I texted my husband, please come home right now. He did. He didn't work that far away. And And as I described in the memoir, I was trying to hold it together, trying to ignore it like I always had. Let me go in and feed her. Let me settle her down. I did have some suicidal thoughts in that moment because I thought I can't keep going this way. I can't feel this. I mean, the panic attacks, the exhaustion, the nightmares, the flashbacks, mean, all of the things that had temporarily died down a little bit when Lily was born was all coming back since I lost him. And I tried to hold strong, went in there and I nursed Layla and it was in that moment that when she put her hand on me on my cheek, you know, know, babies tend to do that when they're nursing, they reach up their arms a lot. I don't know if they're just stretching, but she did that. And she put her little hand like that on my, on me and she's staring at me with the same blue eyes that my husband has the same stare. And now that she's 10 years old, she is a replica of my husband. like their pers - they even have the same hands like their personalities are identical and she stares at people like that to this day and she's very intuitive and she was looking at me and I just like I surrendered I let go and I stopped fighting this because I had been fighting it for 13 years and I didn't want to fight anymore and it was so profound and and that's why I chose to share what happened to me at 16. Lindsay Gibson (01:29:49.838) that part of my story because when my husband got home, now luckily Layla had settled down, I was able to put her down and my husband comes bursting in because he's thinking, because he had been worried. had PPD, he was worried and he comes bursting in and I just let go and I started to share every single detail of what had happened to me at 16 to him for the first time. Now we had been together how long at this point? And I had to do it. That's what I had to do. it was like, remember after I was done talking, my husband stayed silent through that whole thing. And I remember looking at him. That's why I said I looked at him with new eyes. It was like, my gosh, it was like a flood just had come out of me. Now was I completely magically healed at that point? No, no, I was not. But it was the first step I needed to actually move forward and heal from PTSD. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:30:50.85) Well said, I mean, there's so many references to this in writing, popular culture, you the way out is the way in, the obstacle is the way, you know, these things, these messages are, they exist throughout the written word, back to biblical times and through philosophy and so forth. And you do such a great job of kind of communicating that process, this act of surrendering, you know, it is allowing and it is allowing the natural flow of emotions. that occur in the aftermath of such events. And you were such a good avoider. You were so good at just putting on the face and putting on the front to everybody that's around you, doing a great student, going out with your friends, being able to just carry on, even though all these things were a burden inside of you. But it gets to this profound moment the book and you're able to kind of just talk about letting it be in the surrender process and it starts the healing. is not the end. It's part of the process. Lindsay Gibson (01:31:50.35) No, it wasn't the end. Yes, and that last chapter that you read, I don't remember writing it. I felt like there was hand and angel was holding me through that moment. And I wrote that entire chapter probably in 10 minutes, I didn't stop. And then afterwards I was like, my gosh, what did I, and so I had to reread it. And then my mom reread it and was like, she was blown away. She was That all just came out as it just all came out. And I'm still a writer to this day. Writing has always been, as you can see with the journals, now I write fiction and fiction is extremely helpful for trauma survivors to read and to write. When you write and you can navigate your own ending, you know, as a fiction writer. And I was interviewed once, you know, rape survivor now writes love, because I do, I write romance and it's a very healing. And so in a way, Fiction is still my way of not avoiding, but just giving my brain and my heart a way to relax a little bit and to go into another world. And that's why I can get so deep when I write. But yeah, no, that was such a profound. I'll never forget that moment. And one day I'll tell Leila, she's only nine, so we're not there yet. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:33:17.558) Yep. There's, there's no doubt that there's somebody that's listening to this right now who has gone through something similar, equally as painful and struggling in ways that you have struggled with everything that you've gone through. now, you know, in the wisdom, the profound wisdom that you're able to kind of communicate now as you reflect back on your life, all its ups and downs. What are some things you may say to somebody who has gone through something like this in a way that maybe can shift their perspective and how they view life? Lindsay Gibson (01:33:54.658) Well, and I have been face to face since next to trauma survivors over the years when I published my memoir and I still to this day speak at colleges, take back the night every April. I speak one on one to high school and college girls. So I have sat next to them. I have listened to many, many stories. I've reached out to, or they've reached out to me on social media. A lot of them are reading my novels now because it is such an escape. But every time I'm sitting next to somebody and they're sharing my story, I give them what I didn't have. that, I don't know when someone reaches out to me, I don't know where they are in their walk. I don't know how many times they've shared this story. I don't know if I'm the first one that they're actually opening up to, cause I could be. And so just like I tell moms who have lost, you know, our family members who, whose family has lost a baby. What do I say? I don't sit there and say I'm sorry. I sit there and I allow them to, as they're articulating a story to me, I give them what I didn't have and I always say to them at the end, let's take the next step now. Every time I open these conversations too and I... and I respond that way or I start to, I don't sit there and say, there's hope, we can do this together, there's help, there's all these things. They've heard these things, and it's like, they're just trying to understand and reintegrate their own story. And I'm here to help them do that step by step. so it's not something that, forgiveness doesn't happen one I don't sit there and say I forgave my perpetrator and all is good. I've had to forgive him over and over and over, especially as the triggers trigger me and they still do. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:35:55.01) How were you able to do Lindsay Gibson (01:35:58.418) that, and that was why that episode really resonated with me when she had shared that part of her story. because as I wrote in the last chapter, you know, hate begets hate. Maybe he was abused as a child, you know, and I started to, as, as I started to separate from myself, from what had happened, because I was always so mixed in it, right? I was living in this constant, constant PTSD, but once I started to separate myself and observe and I, and say, okay, then I started to see him as a human being and what could have happened to him. And yes, I fell victim to his hate and to his how he is, but he is still a human being, right? And so that started to open the doors for forgiveness with the compassion. The two kind of went hand in hand, at least for me. But it doesn't mean I'm not still triggered. It doesn't mean Lindsay Gibson (01:37:00.106) I don't think about that night and I still tear up when I think about that night. All the emotions are still there. I'm just not, I'm able to sit next to the emotions now. I'm able to allow them to come and that's what I want to help people when they come to me that they need to feel to heal. You have to allow them to come and start. And I really love helping people connect them to the body because that was something I always struggled with. And body healing was a huge part of my healing modality. that I would incorporate with the trauma healing, but it's a constant. And so if something triggers me or reminds me, I have to step back all over again and I have to allow myself to get through those emotions and then at the end say, okay, all right, I'm gonna forgive this and I'm gonna move forward. it's... Lindsay Gibson (01:37:51.274) It's a lot of work. can't, you know, there's no way to sugarcoat it really. I mean, I wish it was a one time thing that we can do, but then something else happens in life. I've gone through other struggles. I've gone through other challenges. I mean, that's life, right? And so, but what I learned through that process helps me today to be able to experience the struggles and then be able to move forward from them. So I've grown. I've grown through that trauma. I've grown, can understand people easier. It's actually helped me and my mother, as I mother my daughters, especially one who's now 17 and she's going into her senior year and she's, as you know, with teenagers, I mean, especially as a trauma survivor and she knows my story and that's the other thing. My daughters will know my story and my oldest knows she read my memoir, but all these experiences I've realized have helped me today. you know, and understanding myself and what I do and how I respond to people. There's so many different ways that I do help. Yes, I know I write fiction, but it's, I call it my mental escapes for people, my stories, because that's what it does for me. That's another coping mechanism that I do. But Yeah, I mean, wish I wish I wish it could just be like a and as you know, as a psychologist, it's not it doesn't doesn't work that way. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:39:21.794) Well, I want to thank you so much. Your memoir is an absolute gift. I think it's a gift to many. And I really do hope, you know, people who are out there are, even, mean, there's kind of two groups of people who I think benefit from reading that. one, certainly those who've been through it or a loved one has been through it, but those in the helping professions as well. And, and that extends beyond therapists or psychologists who are working with traumatized individuals. I mean, it's from a police who has to walk into the hospital, a social worker who feels overworked, a nurse, a doctor, you know, we spoke so much about the power of love and the power of compassion. But there's so much about the memoir that just talks about that energy that can be experienced from people around you. And so when you're in the helping professions and you're working with people who've just gone through hell, you know, that love of that compassion is going to be felt by them and it might be exactly what they need. in that moment that could have profound lasting consequences. mean, and that's, you know, that's the thing that's such a takeaway from your entire story. And it's, it's not just the relationship to your husband. It's not just what happened at the hospital. It's not just your children. It's also these little connections and friendships and relationships that helped you survive and helped you feel okay and get through. And I mean, there's just so much profound wisdom in it. I do thank you for your courage, your willingness to write that. And of course, coming on a podcast, talking to a stranger, you know, through a computer screen and sharing that story. There's no doubt, you know, this is going to reach people and it's going to be really meaningful to them. So for people who want to, you know, check you out, your work and see what you're doing, where can they be directed? Lindsay Gibson (01:40:55.64) Yeah. Lindsay Gibson (01:41:06.296) Thank Lindsay Gibson (01:41:12.588) My website's authorlindseygibson .com and it has all my books on there and what I'm up to. And I always share my newsletters, anything that comes up. I have a Facebook group called the Healthy Reader where I talk a lot about emotions and not just reading. And it's a safe place where I share a lot of my tips and because I did go on to get a master's in mental health nutrition and functional medicine. And I did that for my own well -being. And so a lot of my knowledge and a lot of what I could share and help people with is inside that group because it's just my way of giving back. I'm not seeing clients one -on -one anymore, because I'm so, I got traditionally contract to do the writing. And so that's what I'm doing right now. And it's a joy to do and I'm so blessed. But that's so, so the Facebook group is where I, is where I really dive into that. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:42:09.612) Well, Lindsay Gibson, I want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation. Lindsay Gibson (01:42:15.544) Thank you for having me.