Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / How North Carolina Built Statewide AI Guidelines for Schools with Vera Cubero

Transcript

How North Carolina Built Statewide AI Guidelines for Schools with Vera Cubero · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:11
Hey, welcome to the Integrate This EdTech podcast.
0:14
I'm Dave Berner, joined by co -host Jeremy Mikla,
0:17
and today we have a special guest with us, Vera
0:20
Kubero, and we are very excited to have Vera
0:23
with us. I've been following a bit of the work
0:26
that has been done in Vera's state, North Carolina,
0:30
in regard to AI, but Vera has a wealth of knowledge,
0:35
different topics, and we're very excited to...
0:37
have you on as a guest. And so welcome to the
0:40
show. And if you don't mind kind of taking things
0:42
over and telling us how you got to where you
0:44
got to today and the different experiences that
0:46
you've had. Okay, sure thing. Well, thanks for
0:48
inviting me on. I appreciate it. As he said,
0:51
I'm Vera Cabello. Right now I'm serving as the
0:54
a well, the emerging technologies consultant
0:57
for North Carolina Department of Public Instruction.
1:00
But of course, we mainly are focused on AI at
1:02
this time. But I am a Right now, 30 year veteran
1:07
of public education, all of it in North Carolina
1:09
schools. So I started out as a teacher assistant,
1:13
actually, while my children were really small,
1:15
worked as a writing coach, and then I became
1:17
a classroom teacher. taught in middle school
1:20
English language arts and social studies for
1:22
14 years. And around the late 1990s, I started
1:26
really seeing, you know, that was kind of the
1:29
internet revolution and seeing how technology
1:32
was really starting to change education. I had
1:34
two just PCs in my room at that time, but just
1:37
it was becoming very obvious that technology
1:39
was going to play a big role in education. So
1:42
I returned to school and got a master's of instructional
1:44
technology. And within a couple of years, I've
1:47
got the opportunity to become an instructional
1:49
technology facilitator at my school. I served
1:52
in that role for about a year and a half and
1:54
then I was brought into the district level in
1:57
the county I worked in and I served there for
1:59
about seven years and then in 2020 right in the
2:01
middle of the pandemic I took this took a role
2:04
with the department North Carolina Department
2:06
of Public Construction as a western region consultant.
2:09
And I was doing that work when ChatGPT launched
2:13
on the world in November of 2022. And of course,
2:15
really started changing things and had already
2:19
had some interest in AI and had done some classes
2:22
and some research on AI before. So I jumped right
2:26
in and started learning as much as I could about
2:29
it and developing content to train teachers because
2:32
it was very obvious. My first use of ChatGPT
2:35
is as bad as it was then, you know, we thought
2:37
it was amazing. about it now, it was horrible,
2:40
but at that time it was very obvious that it
2:42
could be really a tool for good and education
2:45
would have a lot of impact. So I started training
2:48
teachers that spring and summer of 2023, fresh
2:53
out of, you know, when it's just a few months
2:54
old, and it was some of the best training. I
2:57
had ever done, you know, I've been training teachers
2:59
for almost a decade at that time. And, you know,
3:02
starting with the angle then of saving you time
3:05
because teachers, of course, the most valuable
3:07
commodity they have besides money, and I couldn't
3:09
help them there, but making sure that they got
3:11
more time. And so it was really, really successful.
3:15
And about that same time I started. pressing
3:19
for statewide guidelines because it became really
3:21
obvious across the state that we had a lot of
3:24
very different approaches. We had some districts
3:27
that had everything blocked down even for teachers,
3:29
some that had everything wide open, just kind
3:33
of explore on your own and very little guidance
3:36
about it. Of course, there wasn't a lot of guidance
3:38
out there at that time. And so I started talking
3:41
with my leadership about the need for statewide
3:43
guidelines. And at the same time, our CIO, Dr.
3:46
Vanessa Wren, was in Washington at a gathering
3:49
and AI was a hot topic then and everybody was
3:52
talking about blocking and banning it. New York
3:54
City was banning it. And somebody asked her,
3:57
was she going to recommend banning it in North
3:59
Carolina? And she said, no, this is gonna be
4:01
something our kids need. And so she came back
4:04
and convened a task force at the state level
4:08
to create AI guidelines. And I was asked to serve
4:10
on that task force. And we developed our guidelines
4:14
because I had already created so much content
4:16
I was using to train teachers. I kind of just
4:20
became the main contributor, the editor, whatever,
4:24
of the document. And we were able to publish
4:27
it in January of 2024, which is pretty early
4:30
on. I think we were the fourth, we were the fourth
4:32
state in the nation at the time. And just to
4:35
give guidance to our whole state. And so that,
4:38
and then pretty soon after that, they saw the
4:40
need for a position to focus entirely on AI because
4:43
I was also serving the whole Western region of
4:45
our state at the time and spread very thin. And
4:49
so they created this position, an emerging technologies
4:52
consultant. And that's where I've been ever since.
4:55
Well, that seems to me, it seems like a lot to
4:59
wrap your brain around. It just seems like such
5:02
a massive undertaking to approach it from that
5:05
statewide perspective. If you go back to, you
5:09
know, you think about how that began, I'm sure
5:12
it involved a lot of different conversations
5:15
with a lot of different stakeholders. And how
5:18
are you able to manage and keep everybody's voice
5:21
at the table, but still be productive? Well,
5:25
that was that's actually a very tricky thing.
5:28
Sounds like you might have worked in state government,
5:30
the government, because that is difficult if
5:33
there's, you know, if everybody is contributing,
5:36
you've got to have somebody who makes final decisions.
5:38
So what we did is we convened, we felt it's really
5:41
important to include a lot of different voices
5:43
like our privacy, our director of privacy was
5:46
on the committee, director of technology, cybersecurity,
5:51
special education, several other voices from
5:54
the digital digital learning, our CTE folks.
5:56
And so we had a lot of people come together and
5:58
what we did is we wrapped it around our digital
6:01
learning plan, which had rolled out the previous
6:03
year. And so it has five focus areas, which are
6:06
leadership and vision, data privacy, cybersecurity,
6:10
and several others that I'm not thinking of right
6:13
now, but we wrapped our guidelines around that
6:15
and it actually worked really well. But we just
6:17
pulled everybody together first and just kind
6:20
of had a brain dump. We kind of set up document
6:24
up with all of those different areas and just
6:27
had people kind of assign different parts of
6:31
it. And everybody just kind of put everything
6:33
in there that they wanted in there. But then
6:34
there was, of course, there was a lot of repetition
6:36
and the voice didn't sound consistent and so
6:39
forth. And so I took it from there and just kind
6:42
of, you know, smoothed it out. It made it have
6:45
a consistent voice throughout, but it also was
6:47
added all of the tools that I had already created.
6:51
I already created some frameworks and guidelines,
6:53
things for teachers, because we wanted it to
6:56
be something almost like an AI 101, you know,
6:59
where somebody, if their district wasn't providing
7:02
them any training, they could take that document,
7:04
read the whole thing and walk away with. a good
7:07
base knowledge and then also some actual tools
7:10
they could take and implement and use. And so
7:13
spent a few months doing that. And then we brought
7:15
it back to the committee two, three different
7:17
times just for feedback and revisions. And then
7:20
we got the final approval, you know, in January
7:23
and we're able to launch it. And then it's been,
7:26
originally we... wanted it to be a living document.
7:30
And so it's guidelines, not policy, because we,
7:33
you know, even then it was changing rapidly.
7:36
Of course, now it's like. light speed, you know,
7:39
much more rapidly. But we knew it was going to
7:40
need to be changed. And if you make something
7:42
policy, then a lot of times that becomes very,
7:45
very difficult to ever change it. And you can't
7:47
keep pace with the changes that need to be made.
7:50
So we made it a living document and I've managed
7:53
it since and it's gone through about 26 revisions,
7:56
I think, most of them barely minor. You know,
7:59
because, you know, new capabilities come out
8:02
and new threats that, you know, we become aware
8:04
of new threats or just new capabilities and new
8:07
possibilities that come with those. So most of
8:09
it has been kind of minor like that. You know,
8:12
as someone who's also a former social studies
8:14
history civics teacher, you know, to hear you
8:17
refer to it as a living document, maybe. It reminds
8:21
me of how I would approach teaching the Constitution
8:23
to my students too about how it has to be this
8:27
thing that evolves with the changing times and
8:29
it's really kind of interesting. I was just having
8:32
a conversation with my boss a little bit earlier
8:34
today and he was, he knows that I get into the
8:38
AI stuff quite a bit and he was struggling with.
8:43
uh it was using notebook lm or gem and i'm not
8:46
sure which one he was using to create some slides
8:48
for presentation that he has to give and he was
8:52
getting really frustrated that the formatting
8:55
on slide seven didn't match the formatting on
8:58
slides eight and nine. And I kind of had to remind
9:02
him, I said, hey, Mark, now six months ago, a
9:05
year ago, you would have been ecstatic that it
9:08
did this much for you. And now you're frustrated
9:11
because it won't, you know, change where one
9:14
text box is located on that slide. So to me,
9:19
that just says. There's so much change, so fast,
9:22
so rapid that if you don't have, you know, like
9:26
your guidelines that can be quickly adaptable
9:29
to the changing situations, then, you know, you're
9:32
just setting yourself up for a disastrous situation
9:36
down the road, I think. For sure. So and one
9:42
of the things too, Vera, that you that hasn't
9:44
been mentioned yet, we had a chance to have Amanda
9:47
Bickerstaff on the program. and she's doing a
9:51
lot of great work with her organization and you've
9:54
been able to collaborate with them on some of
9:57
that work. And so one of the things that came
9:59
up was the Every Framework that you worked on
10:03
with them. Can you talk a little bit about how
10:06
you came, I guess first how you came to start
10:10
that with Amanda, but then also what was the
10:14
reasoning behind the acronym, the different pieces
10:16
that are part of that framework? Well, as I said,
10:20
I was starting to train teachers in that summer
10:23
of 2023. And so I had created a few things for
10:27
that, but I wanted a framework just kind of to
10:30
simplify for them to make sure they have that
10:33
human oversight, the human in the loop, whatever
10:35
you want to call it. And at the time, you know,
10:39
ChatGBT was not especially useful at creating
10:42
acronyms. I tried 10 or 11 times and finally
10:45
just had to sit down and do it myself. But I
10:47
kind of came up with that framework as a way
10:50
to just remind people of their role in creating
10:54
with AI, because that conversation of academic
10:57
integrity, of course, started then, but also
11:00
just wanted to make sure that people weren't
11:01
just creating AI slop and passing it on to their
11:04
students. And so I came up with that acronym
11:07
and had posted it on LinkedIn, I think, or somewhere.
11:11
And I already knew Amanda. We'd worked together.
11:13
She came in and done some work for us in North
11:16
Carolina for our first AI collaborative. So I
11:19
was on her webinar one time. So she reached out
11:23
to me and said she'd like to collaborate on it
11:25
and get it on her website. So they took it and
11:27
made it beautiful, made a few changes to it and
11:30
published it on there, which I was happy to have
11:32
that. connection because she has, of course,
11:34
a very huge audience and so it gave it a good
11:37
audience. We did make one revision to it that
11:39
second E. at first was edit and we changed that
11:43
to engage and that's kind of the version two
11:45
to kind of make sure we emphasize that that you
11:48
don't just take the first thing it gives you
11:50
that you engage with it and keep improving the
11:53
output. And so we made that change. And so that's
11:56
the current version of it. But Amanda's great.
11:59
She does wonderful work. And when I first started
12:02
learning about AI and, you know. December and
12:06
2023 in January, 2024 or 23 and 24. She was one
12:10
of the only people out there that was really
12:12
doing this work. There was, you know, now there's
12:15
a million, but she was one of the first that
12:17
was really creating good, solid guidance for
12:21
people in education to use AI. So, so we connected
12:24
quite a bit over the, over the three years, seems
12:27
like a decade. And have you found like what,
12:31
when you're when teachers are engaging with that
12:34
framework is there a piece of it that you think
12:37
they struggle with the most or that you know
12:40
just in your with their their exposure to AI
12:45
is there any piece in there where that you've
12:48
seen them struggle with just understanding a
12:50
certain concept or a piece of it or maybe even
12:53
some aha moments too Yeah, well, I think the
12:56
verification step for sure, where you're verifying
12:59
the facts and figures and data and checking it
13:03
for bias and stuff, that's something that people
13:05
still struggle with. And actually, I think that
13:07
has gotten more difficult because as the tools
13:09
have gotten better, they don't hallucinate or
13:13
invent as much and the bias they've managed to
13:16
hide it more. And so that's the piece I think
13:19
most people are still struggling with the most.
13:21
And it's something that you can't just make it
13:24
happen to demonstrate it. And so I think that's
13:27
always been the hardest part. Of course, it's
13:28
gotten better now. When we first created the
13:30
framework, chat GPT did not give you the sources.
13:34
And so you couldn't really just easily go click.
13:36
Now, at least all of the tools give you a link
13:39
that you can check and you can see, does that
13:41
link even exist? And if it does, is it a... you
13:43
know reasonable link and is that information
13:46
there. So that has gotten easier. But as we as
13:49
the tools get better people get more trusting
13:52
of them. And so sometimes they forget to do the
13:54
verification step. So I think that would be the
13:57
one people struggle with the most. The last one
14:01
that you are responsible, you know, making sure
14:03
that you disclose it to, I think that has changed.
14:06
So we're seeing some, you know, like people ask
14:09
me, somebody asked me the other day, so if I
14:11
use AI to write an email, do I need to verify
14:14
that? Two years ago, I would have said yes, but
14:16
now that's almost becoming so commonplace that,
14:19
you know, that's changing as well. the the amount
14:24
of disclosure that you need to use and when you
14:26
disclose, I think that's going to be very fluid.
14:29
But the framework itself has has stayed very
14:31
relevant. And so it hasn't changed. Just some
14:34
of the the micro pieces of it are changing as
14:38
things as the tools develop and emerge. Yeah,
14:45
I was I was reading somewhere that you had talked
14:48
about or you used the phrase homework apocalypse.
14:51
you know in in reference to you know AI can do
14:55
a lot of traditional assignments for teachers
14:57
and you know we've David and I've had some conversations
15:00
before too where you know we talk about you know
15:04
if you're creating assignments that allow students
15:06
to just be able to push an easy button to get
15:10
the answers that they need to complete their
15:12
homework is you know like What are you really
15:16
assigning students to do? You know, back in the
15:18
day, I think I would have said, you know, if
15:20
everything is Google -able, you know, why even
15:25
bother with it? And now if everything is AI -able,
15:29
you know, what's missing? What are... you know,
15:33
what are some suggestions you can give to teachers
15:34
to avoid falling into that trap? Because, you
15:37
know, I know you can, you know, there's things
15:41
out there where you can have AI checkers, you
15:44
know, which I've got my own opinions on here,
15:47
too, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts
15:48
about those are here. But if we want to get to
15:50
that next, we certainly can. But also, I think,
15:54
you know, it's this idea that we need to be looking
15:59
at what our objectives are for our students.
16:02
What are we asking them really to learn? So I
16:05
kind of want to get your take on that. Maybe
16:06
starting with that homework apocalypse idea.
16:10
I can't take credit for that term. Ethan Malik,
16:15
he's somebody I follow. I'm sure you guys have
16:17
heard of him and he wrote an essay probably two
16:21
years ago now. you know, predicting this homework
16:24
apocalypse. And so I borrowed the term and I
16:27
do use it, but it is, you know, like as you said,
16:29
you know, if, if, if, if what they're doing can
16:32
be outsourced to AI and you really cannot ever
16:35
know if all you're doing is focusing on that
16:38
end result and you're giving them the type of
16:41
work that AI can easily do, then you will not
16:44
ever know from now on whether a student is actually
16:46
doing that work or not. And, you know, even if
16:48
you take the devices in class, you give them
16:51
paper and pencil. When they go home, some students
16:53
are going to have, you know, an advantage and
16:56
they're going to have access to those tools.
16:58
And you already kind of mentioned the AI detectors,
17:00
they just do not work. And so they've been proven
17:03
time and time again, to be much less accurate
17:07
than they say. And so there's a lot of, you know,
17:10
the potential there to falsely accuse a student
17:13
to me is just an untenable. option. And so there's
17:17
also some ethical considerations about there
17:20
was a study done that it's a proven fact that
17:24
they do falsely flag non -native English speakers
17:27
at a higher rate. Some common sense media surveys
17:31
that went out, they weren't like actual research
17:32
studies, but they surveyed kids. And those surveys
17:36
also indicated that African -American kids were
17:41
falsely accused at a much higher rate as well.
17:43
And I have myself, very strong suspicions that
17:48
the students that have dyslexia and text disabilities
17:51
are also being identified at a much higher rate.
17:54
And then there's also the, you know, the truth
17:56
of it is that a lot of students are using it
17:59
and not being identified because they have the
18:01
prompting skills and things to kind of fly under
18:04
the radar. And so for me, that is just a no go.
18:07
We recommend strongly against the use of those
18:09
tools. And so knowing that, knowing that students
18:12
have access to these very powerful tools at their
18:15
disposal, that you cannot detect them. And then
18:18
equally important that they're going to need.
18:20
and there's tons of research out there and predictions
18:23
for the job market, they're going to need to
18:25
know how to work with the tools. And so that
18:27
brings us to a point where if we continue to
18:30
assign these you know, factory model types of
18:33
assignments, the multiple choice, short answer,
18:36
only right answer, formulate five paragraph essays,
18:40
all of those assignments of the past, we're not
18:43
preparing our kids for the future. And so we
18:45
have to think about how do we redesign the instruction
18:48
in order to make sure that students are learning,
18:52
obviously they have to learn the content and
18:54
we have standards we have to teach, but they
18:56
also need to be learning those durable skills
18:58
that are becoming more and more important in
18:59
the job market. And we have a portrait of the
19:02
graduate North Carolina that lists seven durable
19:05
skills, but they're the same ones that you hear
19:08
on all of the job predictions like communication,
19:11
collaboration, critical thinking. Ours also has
19:13
empathy in it, which it came out before chat
19:16
GBT, but empathy is becoming one of the more.
19:20
required skills, learners' mindset and personal
19:24
responsibility. And so how do you teach those
19:27
as well? And those are not things you can just
19:29
say, okay, class, today we're gonna learn critical
19:32
thinking. They have to be embedded and infused
19:35
within everything you do. And so redesigning
19:39
the instruction is what we have to do. We have
19:42
to think about how to teach these kids. you know,
19:45
in a whole new way. And that's the hardest thing
19:48
for teachers. That's what teachers have really
19:49
been struggling the most with because, you know,
19:52
it's not how they were taught to teach. And so
19:55
that's been a lot of my effort the last couple
19:57
of years digging in and trying to give some supports
20:00
to teachers to try to help them think through
20:03
different ways of doing it. And when we first
20:06
wrote the guidelines, we were focusing most on
20:08
AI resistant assignments. Now, how do you give
20:10
an assignment that a kid It's not as easy to
20:13
use AI on, but we've kind of shifted now and
20:15
focusing more on assignments that really infuse
20:18
those durable skills. And so a lot of done a
20:21
lot of work on micro PBL 2 .0 is AI infused kind
20:27
of short cycle PBL units. And I've created an
20:31
app that we've used in our trainings where teachers
20:34
can put. a single standard in it, the location
20:37
where they live, the number of days they have,
20:40
and any kind of things about their class, context,
20:44
they can give it context. And it will co -create
20:46
with them a micro PBL unit. And it works unlike
20:50
the ones where you just kind of push the button
20:52
and go, and then it spits out the whole unit.
20:55
It makes the teacher kind of part of the process.
20:57
And I did that intentionally because I want to
20:59
reinforce that synergy between the human and
21:02
the AI. and that human oversight. And so it creates
21:06
with them and they have to give insight and approval
21:09
through the whole process, but it'll create that
21:11
PBO unit. And that's been really successful for
21:14
kind of turning the light bulb on for teachers
21:16
and helping them understand. Yes, you can actually
21:19
teach with AI. And then recently I've also created
21:23
a framework that's in our guidelines called the
21:25
Human Agency Framework. And I created a GeminiGem
21:28
to kind of go with that and does the same thing.
21:30
Like they can give a standard and it will help
21:33
them devise a way that kind of assumes AI use.
21:37
What can you do to make sure that the human agency
21:40
that they're staying in the loop, like instead
21:41
of just, you know, solve these math problems,
21:44
give them some kind of context to it, localized
21:46
context, which I think is very important that
21:49
play space learning. And so those are, those
21:52
are some of the things we're doing to try to
21:54
support teachers. And of course we don't have
21:56
all of the answers we're learning, you know,
21:58
figuring it out as we go. But I think those,
22:00
those have been very successful so far for helping
22:02
kind of guide teachers and help them reimagine.
22:06
what learning is going to look like in this new
22:08
world. I think you hit on some important things
22:11
there that I, when I talk to groups of teachers
22:15
and when I encounter that resistance of teachers
22:17
towards AI, and I think some of it has to do
22:20
with what you were saying about, you know, it's
22:23
very difficult for teachers to say, hey, the
22:26
way that I've taught this lesson for the last
22:29
five, 10 years is not as effective anymore and
22:33
what could help me get to that point and I think
22:36
by you describing that process where they are
22:39
integrally involved with the AI and helping to
22:42
design a lesson that's going to meet that objective,
22:45
that standard. And then the other unique thing
22:47
that I thought that you added to that is the
22:50
local piece, you know, because it has to fit
22:52
in with the standards of not just their district,
22:55
their building, but, you know, their larger community
22:58
as well. And so that's really interesting how
23:01
you're able to tie that in. And I think that
23:03
would uh help to lessen some of that resistance
23:07
that a teacher might bring to it because you
23:10
know at the same time i i think i you know we
23:13
need to make sure that we're honoring the teachers
23:15
and the experience that they have and that they
23:17
do have a lot of tricks in their bags and tools
23:20
up their sleeves and all of that you know that
23:22
aren't even technology related that are still
23:26
an integral part of who they are and how they
23:29
teach and i and i think by allowing them to partner
23:33
with AI as that assistant, as that co -pilot,
23:36
or whatever you want to, you know, call that
23:38
role, really then the teacher can see that, no,
23:42
this is still me. I recognize that how I carry
23:45
out this lesson are still everything that I have
23:48
experienced and learned. It's my, you know, knowledge
23:51
of the pedagogy. It's my relationships I've built
23:54
with those students. And I'm just... adding this
23:56
little piece to help really ramp up the learning
23:59
that's taking place. Yeah, I think that's crucial.
24:03
And if you have had several opportunities to
24:05
lead a group of teachers through that process,
24:08
and it really is amazing, they're amazed because
24:11
a lot of them, you know, if you don't really
24:14
know how to prompt deeply and, you know, if you're
24:18
just using AI as a newcomer, you don't see the
24:21
power of it. But whenever you're using a tool
24:23
like that, that's really trained on all of the
24:26
resources it's trained in and then trained to.
24:29
work with the teacher, it really turns a lot
24:32
of light bulbs on them. And so for a teacher
24:34
to come up with just a random standard from their
24:37
curriculum and find some way to tie that to their
24:41
local area and pull together a unit would be
24:43
very, very difficult. But that's where the AI
24:45
comes in. That ability synthesizes that information.
24:48
And so it really helps to show them that. And
24:51
I think that's how we build teacher fluency,
24:53
because our teachers really need to be AI fluent
24:55
also. And they're not going to get it just by
24:58
going and pressing a button and, you know, presto
25:01
outcomes, uh, an assignment. And so I think it's
25:03
really important that we build that fluency with
25:05
them and help them learn. And that, that job
25:08
embedded that, that kind of training is where
25:11
I think is the most productive, you know, where
25:13
they're actually doing something that really
25:15
applies to their real life role, whatever it
25:17
is and helping to be a part of it and guiding
25:20
them. So, and we've talked about teachers a bit
25:24
and the importance of training them up. As far
25:27
as students are concerned, how are you describing
25:31
and you've said this before is the new digital
25:34
divide. How would you describe that for listeners
25:38
who aren't familiar with what that might mean?
25:41
What's the new digital divide and maybe what
25:43
does that look like actually on the ground? So
25:46
if you just wanted to say like in North Carolina,
25:49
what does that look like or what concerns you
25:51
most about that new digital divide? Well, I have
25:54
a huge concern about it because I really feel
25:57
like that we're you know for the last three or
26:00
four years have been talking about the job predictions,
26:02
how in the future it's going to really hit the
26:05
job market. And most people were looking at a
26:07
2030 date when that was going to happen. But
26:09
we're seeing that happen now in real time. And
26:12
so just since January, I'm sure you guys saw
26:15
the blocks announcement where Jack Dorsey announced
26:18
the layoff of 40 % of his company because of
26:20
the ability of these intelligent systems. And
26:23
there have been many more besides that. UPS had
26:25
a big layoff. Amazon's had a layoff. Lowe's has
26:27
had a layoff. And most of them are pointing to
26:30
this fact that the AI, basically the AI systems
26:33
allow them to work with leaner teams. And so
26:36
those entry level jobs that used to be the staple
26:39
for, you know, that would tell kids get good
26:42
grades, get into a good school, you'll get a
26:44
good job. That pathway is kind of disintegrating
26:47
for our kids. And most of the kids know that.
26:49
I've talked to a lot of kids and we've had a
26:51
lot of student forums and they're very well aware
26:54
of it. But my concern is, that the students who
26:57
are not getting opportunities while they're in
27:00
school to build their AI literacy, which I feel
27:03
like really AI literacy is the floor. AI fluency
27:06
is really what they need to have before they
27:08
graduate. That's why our timeline kind of goes
27:10
through that progression. But they're going out
27:13
and they're entering a job market where they're
27:15
going to be at a disadvantage. And if our poor
27:19
school districts, the lower resource school districts,
27:24
the students that go to those, If they're not
27:26
getting those opportunities, a lot of times they're
27:28
at a disadvantage already for poverty and whatever.
27:32
And they're going to go out and they're going
27:33
to be at a greater disadvantage. They're going
27:34
to be competing for jobs against students that
27:37
have had those opportunities. And so I feel like
27:40
that is going to create a much larger, much more
27:43
serious digital divide than the previous digital
27:46
divide. And so we have to make sure that all
27:48
of our students are getting those opportunities
27:50
to learn about AI when they're young, start learning
27:54
with AI. and start moving toward that ability
27:57
to manage AI before they graduate because that's
28:00
what's gonna be expected in the job market. And
28:03
I've already referenced job predictions, but
28:06
it doesn't matter which one you look at. They're
28:09
all kind of predicting that there is gonna be
28:11
a huge shift and nobody knows exactly what it's
28:14
gonna be. But the white collar jobs seem to be
28:16
the ones that are gonna be hit. first hit the
28:19
most. And there's also some research done that
28:22
the the younger the unemployment rate has risen
28:26
and that those younger entry level jobs, but
28:28
the more experienced people that are able to
28:31
use AI to augment their work instead of just
28:33
automated or have kind of remained stable. And
28:36
we don't know how long that will be. But I just
28:39
feel like that we're setting them up for failure.
28:41
And I've had some. people argue that, you know,
28:45
well, what about our kids that can't read? They
28:47
should be pulled out for reading classes instead
28:49
of doing AI classes. And why would we do that?
28:53
That's just going to, you know, that you can't
28:54
read and now you don't know anything about AI
28:56
either. That's just like two strikes against
28:58
you instead of one. I mean, and so, of course,
29:01
literacy is super important. And if you're a
29:04
good reader and a good communicator, you're going
29:05
to work much more effectively with AI tools.
29:08
But that to me is like saying, well, if he can't
29:11
do math, we can't let him learn to read either,
29:14
but that doesn't make sense to me. And so a lot
29:17
of people just don't value it as much as they
29:20
value the other literacies. But I think in the
29:22
world they're going into, it's going to be just
29:24
as important as the other literacies are. Yeah.
29:28
And one of the things too, you know, you alluded
29:31
to them having to have these skills as they are
29:35
starting to enter the job market and be more
29:39
AI literate. understand how these these programs
29:42
work, these systems work. And, you know, it resonates
29:45
with in our area, too, in southwest Minnesota.
29:49
One of the things that we see is a lot of schools
29:52
are they're doing the trainings and they're doing
29:55
the work to get their teachers trained up in
29:57
that. As far as you know, it does vary from school
30:02
to school as far as what they're willing to expose
30:05
students to. But if you're if you're thinking
30:08
about. The students and their their future years
30:12
and what the job market may turn out to look
30:14
like What do you think is like the baseline the
30:17
minimum thing that schools should offer so that
30:21
their their kids are? Aren't starting from they're
30:25
not already behind by the time they graduate
30:27
like what's the what's the bare minimum that?
30:30
Like take a school that hasn't exposed any of
30:32
their students to AI. What would you say would
30:34
be like this is the thing that? every student
30:37
should start to understand. And I know with North
30:40
Carolina, too, it's done some a lot of great
30:43
work that you've done with the state in terms
30:45
of like those grade spans and things like that.
30:48
But if you're just saying like no student knows
30:50
anything about AI, I know that's not the case.
30:52
Kids are doing things on their own. But what
30:54
in your mind is the baseline? Well, I think at
30:57
the barest minimum, and this is really like like
31:01
scraping the floor. But I think they need to
31:03
know, you know, what is generative AI? on a base
31:06
level, how does it work? What are the concerns
31:09
and considerations of it? Because they need that
31:12
ability to discern whether they should use it
31:14
or not, what it's good at, what it's not. And
31:18
that whole thing of being able to evaluate and
31:23
oversee it as the human would be the very bare
31:26
minimum. Of course, we're reaching for much higher
31:29
than that. Our guidelines don't recommend exposing
31:34
elementary students to chatbots for a lot of
31:36
reasons. But even our elementary kids, we expect
31:39
that they're learning about it. And they can
31:42
learn about it without being exposed to it. To
31:45
kind of help them understand what it is, they
31:47
can learn about machine learning through something
31:50
like that, code .org oceans game, or going on
31:54
to... teachable machine and you know they can
31:57
do some things like that that don't really expose
31:59
them to the dangers of chatbots. But then in
32:03
middle school we really felt like students should
32:05
be getting some very teacher guided. uses of
32:08
AI in that range, we really do kind of recommend
32:13
that they use something like some of the ones
32:15
that do have some teacher oversight, like Magic
32:17
School, School AI, some of those where the teacher
32:20
can kind of monitor and see what they're doing.
32:22
But by high school, I feel like students should
32:24
be using kind of mainstream tools that they will
32:27
be using in the real world. And right now, there
32:30
aren't very many that have a K -12 education.
32:34
plan only Gemini has that at this time. And so
32:37
they're the other education ones are more for
32:39
teachers or for colleges, not necessarily students,
32:42
but I know that both chat GPT and Claude are
32:46
looking at potential K -12 use cases. So I don't
32:50
think the tools as important as that they're
32:52
using it in real world ways before they graduate.
32:55
Because I think, you know, They're going to go
32:58
into a world where they're going to kind of be
33:00
expected to do that. And I try to try to, and
33:03
it's not even comparable. The internet changed
33:06
a lot, but it has, wasn't as impactful as AI
33:08
is going to be. But I try to think about like
33:10
10 years ago, you know, what if a kid had never
33:13
been exposed to the internet at all? And then
33:15
they went and got a job in corporate America
33:17
and you know, how behind they would be, you know,
33:20
and this is not, this is going to be, you know,
33:23
way more. you know, not having any exposure to
33:26
AI is going to be way worse than that. But I
33:28
also think that, you know, we did a really terrible
33:31
job as a whole society with social media because
33:34
it's remained taboo in schools for all these
33:36
years and schools have dealt with the fallout
33:38
of it every single day. I know as a middle school
33:40
teacher, you know, every day we're dealing with
33:42
something that started on social media that comes
33:44
into the school and we never really taught our
33:47
kids about it. And again, that was very impactful
33:50
in society, but not nearly as much so as AI.
33:53
And but here we are. still arguing about whether
33:55
to teach kids AI and whether kids should be using
33:58
AI. And now there's this anti -screen movements
34:02
where people are saying we shouldn't even have
34:04
screens in schools. And so to me, that's mind
34:08
-blowing. It is a result of screens not being
34:13
used appropriately, being used as babysitters.
34:16
And unfortunately that does happen sometimes,
34:19
but all screen use is not the same either. And
34:22
so I think we just have to try to help people
34:24
understand that, that just because it gets on
34:26
a screen doesn't mean it's a bad thing. That's
34:29
instructional redesign too. If the instruction
34:32
is designed appropriately, then first of all,
34:35
they wouldn't be on a screen unless that had
34:37
some kind of benefit over the paper and pencil
34:39
method. But if it's designed appropriately, then
34:43
there's learning taking place. And so I think
34:45
we have to look at the instructional design of
34:47
all of those things and make sure that, you know,
34:50
that it is. you know, fit for purpose, that's
34:53
benefiting them, that is helping them reach,
34:55
like, I think of that SAMR model, which Ed Tech
34:58
people know, a lot of the general public doesn't
35:00
know, but if we're just using it to substitute
35:02
for paper and pencil, then we're really missing
35:05
the mark. And I have, and I also think it's super
35:08
important that we also build those personal skills,
35:12
because those were already kind of falling by
35:16
the wayside before COVID, but especially after
35:18
COVID, you know, the kids don't know how to talk
35:20
to each other. They don't know how to engage
35:22
in, you know, civil discourse. And they don't
35:25
learn that, certainly from social media. And
35:27
so we need to make sure that we're, you know,
35:31
using it to help build those social skills too.
35:34
So kids shouldn't just be staring at a screen
35:36
all the time, but. it can help develop ideas
35:40
and things, and then they can talk to actual
35:42
other humans about the ideas. And so it's one
35:44
thing that I also recommend to teachers is just
35:47
that little bit of oral, if you will wonder whether
35:50
a kid did something with AI or not, you can talk
35:52
to a kid for two minutes and you can know whether
35:54
they actually used their brain or not, whether
35:57
they learned anything or not. It's very easy
36:02
to see whether they just plugged it into AI and
36:04
didn't learn anything or not. But there's so
36:08
much in that last response that I think we could
36:11
unpack and we could probably have a whole episode
36:13
on everything that you talked about, you know,
36:16
in that last little piece right there, you know,
36:18
from screen time to SEL stuff to, you know, checking
36:21
for understanding and what students have learned.
36:24
But one of the things that you started out talking
36:26
about reminded me of something that I read from
36:29
Dan Fitzpatrick, I think, in his Sunday newsletter
36:32
or the weekend newsletter just this past week.
36:35
And it had to do with you know like like you
36:38
were talking about like some of the things that
36:41
you know if we're not giving students the not
36:45
just the exposure to ai but like the hands -on
36:48
application uses for it then we're really doing
36:52
them you know a disservice and I think in one
36:56
point in the article he likened it to you know
36:59
you can give all of your students if you're a
37:01
music teacher all of this education and you know
37:05
talk about music theory until you bore every
37:07
kid to death and they're not going to learn how
37:10
to play an instrument you know like if you want
37:12
to get them to be able to use it and use it in
37:16
a high capacity that you have to be able to go
37:21
through some of those up and down times and those
37:24
kids learning to play the recorder. And, you
37:27
know, I remember my fourth, fifth grade kids,
37:30
my own ones playing them at home and wanting
37:33
to like bust my ears off or something. But, you
37:37
know, I think that's, you know, just kind of
37:39
goes to exactly what you're saying. It it it,
37:42
you know, literacy. can be the floor, but it,
37:45
you know, that fluency has to be what we're expecting.
37:48
Yep. That has, and you don't get fluency as you
37:51
said, with somebody just talking about it to
37:53
you. Yeah. Watch all the YouTube videos or anything,
37:56
but until you get in there and experience it
37:58
for yourself, then yeah. And I think about 10
38:01
hours of use is about what it takes to really,
38:04
you know, for a teacher. And that's why I liked
38:06
a lot of people want these one and done. AI literacy
38:09
training so they can check the box for one hour.
38:11
You're not going to be anything like a literate
38:14
in an hour, you know? And so it's not like a
38:16
Google doc. That's what I tell people. You know,
38:18
it's not like you just learn to use a Google
38:20
doc. You're in there for an hour and you set
38:21
everybody loose. There needs to be those follow
38:24
ups and check ins and they need to be using it.
38:27
in their job and, you know, job embedded roles,
38:30
but there should be like PLC groups or something
38:33
where they're going and sharing and talking about
38:36
successes, learning from each other. If that's
38:38
ongoing for, you know, maybe 10 hours, then a
38:41
teacher has a, you know, a pretty good understanding
38:44
of it. And then they're really able to guide
38:45
the students. But when you get a new user for
38:49
an hour. Is that do you think where many teachers
38:54
are at right now when it comes to AI is that
38:58
they don't feel comfortable enough themselves
39:00
in using it, so then therefore they don't feel
39:03
like they should be. You know, helping their
39:06
students learn how to use it. I think a lot of
39:09
teachers are there and you know teachers by nature
39:12
are perfectionists and have very high expectations
39:15
of themselves and so that's something I had to
39:17
really work on myself as a teacher. You want
39:20
to be the one that has all the answers and so
39:22
it takes you know kind of suspending your comfort
39:25
level to you know accept that your kids probably
39:28
know more about it than you do or some of them
39:30
will. But I think that is a struggle for sure.
39:34
And so, you know, but I see, you know, we do
39:36
have a lot of teachers who are doing great things
39:37
with it and who are, you know, really encouraging
39:40
teaching their students, but it is uneven. And
39:43
that's what concerns me. We're talking about
39:44
that digital divide. Those schools are going
39:47
to be a lot better. the students are going to
39:50
be a lot more prepared for their future. We recently
39:52
had something called the AI Solvathon. I don't
39:54
know if you have heard of that, but that whole
39:57
premise of that was that students are using AI
39:59
to solve a problem in their community. So it's
40:01
kind of like a PBO, not really curriculum related,
40:04
but. It was really good demonstration of that.
40:07
But what I also saw is that in North Carolina,
40:11
we do have a lot of charters. But student population
40:14
-wise, most of our students go to public schools.
40:17
But about half of our teams were from a charter
40:20
that's focused on math and science. And a lot
40:22
of the other schools would have liked to have
40:24
done it. But they don't really have the focus
40:29
on it. First of all, they don't have the technology
40:31
focus. don't have permission to use the tools
40:34
or to let the students use the tools. And so
40:37
that showed me that divide already. And so, you
40:40
know, if we're having it only at our magnet schools
40:43
and things like that, then again, those students
40:46
in the LA's and the other schools are not getting
40:49
it. And so you mentioned the Solvathon. What
40:55
were some of the things that you've seen kids
40:57
come up with that were really interesting to
41:00
you? Well, it was amazing when every one of them
41:02
came up with. We had 50 teams and just ideas
41:05
all over the place, but our top 10 that came
41:08
to the state level, the top winning team was
41:12
from Cabarrus County Schools and they created
41:14
an app called NC. connect. And the whole purpose
41:18
of the app was to connect low or high poverty
41:21
people from rural communities to resources where
41:24
it's really hard to find resources. And so it's
41:26
a working app that does that, where somebody
41:28
can put in their location and talk in real time.
41:31
It translates it and so forth. And so that was
41:34
a beautiful idea, really showed a lot of empathy.
41:37
Our second place winner was from Pine Lake Charter
41:40
School, and they created a DMV app that re -envisions
41:44
the DMV in North Carolina. DMV is historically
41:47
backlogged and slow and bad. And so that was
41:51
really popular and they actually created like
41:53
a little booth to, to go with it, where you can
41:56
go in and use the app on a booth. And so it does
41:59
a lot of things better than the actual DMV website
42:01
do. And they're actually going to present to
42:03
the governor in April to the governor's office
42:06
and show the app. So they've had a lot of opportunity.
42:08
And then our third place winner was from Fayetteville
42:12
and I always get the county wrong, but Fayetteville
42:15
and North Carolina in kind of a high poverty
42:17
area. And they created an app and a website to
42:21
address homelessness. And so kind of to connect
42:23
the people, the homeless in their community with
42:26
resources and help. And so just those. And then
42:29
there were several others. One created an emotional
42:31
support chat bot for high schools. One of my
42:34
local. hometown here, we have white squirrels
42:37
in Brevard, North Carolina, and they get killed
42:39
on the roads. And so they created something,
42:41
their solution was to try to save the white squirrels
42:44
and keep them from getting killed. And so they
42:46
would just, one created an ASL translator for
42:51
deaf communities. One of the teams created an
42:54
app called Site Risk, which would evaluate safety
42:58
on construction sites and like alert people to
43:01
safety concerns. So just all over the place,
43:03
but they were all. very meaningful and really
43:06
meant a lot to the students and having that local
43:09
connection they could really see the impact also
43:12
and so it's just amazing what kids can do if
43:15
you give them the intellectual freedom and the
43:17
support to do it and the tools and so it was
43:20
just a really great experience probably the highlight
43:22
of my whole teaching career. Really? And they
43:26
say they're going to continue it. As you all
43:28
both know, I'm retiring at the end of this year,
43:31
but we they intend to continue that and have
43:34
it every year. So I look forward to seeing what
43:36
they come up with next year as well. Yeah, that's
43:39
amazing. And I think it's the the coolest thing
43:41
about it is that it connects so many different
43:44
things for the students, like their their actual.
43:48
The places they live the things that their state
43:51
is going through that they could help solve different
43:54
issues Being aware of what those issues are then
43:57
at the same time They're using AI and becoming
44:00
more and more AI literate as they use it and
44:03
it sets a huge example, too I think for other
44:05
states to adopt something like that to encourage
44:07
students to be You know have that ingenuity to
44:11
create things and solve things. I think it's
44:13
really that's something that's really cool, but
44:15
you did Yeah, you did mention that you were retiring
44:20
and so, but you've launched Kibaro Consulting.
44:26
Can you tell us a little bit about what your
44:27
goals are with that and who you're trying to
44:28
serve with that? Yeah, I will. So Cabara Consulting
44:32
will launch on June 1st and it's just going to
44:34
be a private consulting business to serve education
44:37
but also to serve small businesses because a
44:39
lot of small businesses are, you know, small
44:42
business owners are not really aware of what
44:45
AI can do for them and how productive it can
44:48
make them. And they don't have the funding to
44:52
pay for big staffs and so be supporting a lot
44:54
of small businesses as well, I hope. And we'll
44:56
see where that goes in the future. But I did
44:58
want to say one more thing about the Solvathon,
45:00
because you reminded me of it. But one of those
45:02
students on the Solvathon told us that he had
45:05
learned more in the past four or five months
45:07
than he had learned the whole rest of his school
45:08
career doing that project. And so that really
45:11
speaks volumes to me also. And I hope that other
45:15
schools will kind of emulate that because that's
45:19
huge. And I told the students, they joined me
45:21
on a webinar a week or so ago. And I told them
45:24
that they have skills that the majority of the
45:27
world doesn't have now. And definitely most people
45:30
their age. And so just to think if you actually
45:33
give a kid the opportunity to go through all
45:36
the struggles and the triumphs and they tried
45:40
different tools and they did a lot of iteration.
45:43
part of what they were judged on as they had
45:46
to talk about the struggles they had. And they
45:49
just learned so much in that. And so I just think
45:51
it's a great model for other states as well.
45:56
Yeah, and I can just see as you're describing
45:58
that to the joy that it's bringing to you. to
46:01
know that you played a role in part of that,
46:03
too. I think it's just great. You know, but now,
46:06
you know, you've you've had the opportunity to
46:08
kind of look back a little bit on your career.
46:10
And now, you know, as you are stepping out of
46:14
the, you know, official educational capacity
46:17
here, like what's something that you see coming
46:20
up on the horizon that, you know, maybe educators
46:23
and families, you know, need to be paying more
46:28
attention to and. There's no fault for a wrong
46:31
answer here because you're going to be walking
46:32
away anyway. So like no one can even hold you
46:36
to it, I guess. Well, I mean, I think definitely
46:39
the increase of digital slop, digital plastic,
46:43
whatever you want to call it. You know, we see
46:45
that every single day now. People posting things
46:49
online and a million people repost it and then
46:51
come to find out it's and even news organizations
46:54
are guilty of it. but not it's AI generated and
46:58
so the fact that you can't believe anything you
47:00
see and then more more and more you can't believe
47:02
anything you hear either that you know the phone
47:05
the if you've interacted with some of these tools
47:08
the the voice cloning ability is just unbelievable,
47:12
like 11 labs, you can make that voice out like
47:15
anybody you want to sound like. And so that's
47:17
the one thing that really concerns me is public
47:20
is not aware enough at how advanced the tools
47:24
are. And it's being it's going to be used by
47:27
bad actors and already has for scams and, you
47:31
know, manipulation. you know, blackmail, whatever.
47:36
So that's a huge concern for me. And another
47:39
one I think families need to be aware of is really
47:41
the companion chatbot issue where kids are really
47:45
starting to engage with these tools to replace
47:48
human engagement. And that has been disastrous
47:51
already in several cases. And so a lot of A lot
47:56
of parents, there was another survey, I think
47:57
it was common sense media as well, showed like
48:00
the number of students that used it was like
48:02
76%. And then the number of parents who thought
48:04
their kids were using it was like in the thirties,
48:06
you know, so a lot of parents are not even aware
48:09
that these things exist. And a lot of times kids
48:12
are, you know, way too deep in it by the time
48:15
they find out. And so the ability for them to
48:19
be. manipulated, coerced by these tools and sucked
48:24
into some unhealthy relationships is a huge concern.
48:29
But I feel like that makes AI literacy all the
48:32
more important in our schools. If we're not teaching
48:35
them, they're going to learn from social media
48:37
and they're going to learn the things we don't
48:38
want them to learn. Right. Thanks for all the
48:46
insights that you've provided us in our conversation.
48:49
We want to do a kind of a fun lightning round
48:51
with you and our this or that, which I think
48:55
we're becoming famous for, I'd like to think.
48:57
But we like to do these at the end just for fun.
48:59
And so Jeremy and I will give you some questions
49:01
here at the lightning round and however much
49:03
you want to expand on any given topic is totally
49:07
fine. But I wanted to ask you the PBL unit. that
49:12
you did in the classroom where the seventh graders
49:15
had to solve a real UN sustainability problem.
49:18
What was the best solution you ever saw for that?
49:22
Well, the one that won was a team that created
49:25
a straw. It was kind of like a large straw with
49:29
a water filtration system on it that could be
49:31
carried in a backpack or a purse and it was actually
49:35
worked. So they actually dropped pond water out
49:37
of it at their demonstration and they won the
49:40
competition, but that was probably the best one.
49:42
So they deserved the win. Cool. What's something
49:46
you were totally wrong about when it comes to
49:48
AI and education that you're at least willing
49:50
to admit? Well, how fast it came on. I took a
49:54
course in 2019, an STU course, and I thought,
49:58
wow, you know, my grandchildren or their grandchildren,
50:00
one of these days, it's really going to affect
50:02
them. And then three years later, ChatGPT launched
50:05
and it's been just like breakneck speed ever
50:08
since. And so I thought we had decades before
50:12
we were going to have to be prepared for that.
50:14
Yeah, I think all of us did. Best advice that
50:19
you've ever received and who gave it to you?
50:22
I've said regarding AI, the best advice was probably
50:25
from Ethan Malik again, who just says to invite
50:28
AI to the table, everything you do, try it with
50:31
AI and see if it can help you. And that's been
50:34
really beneficial to me. It's really saved me
50:36
a lot in my workflows. What do you do out in?
50:41
Western North Carolina to decompress, get away
50:44
from technology. Get away from AI, right? A lot
50:47
of gardening. I actually start in a cut flower
50:49
farm. So in my greenhouse or my nursery or my
50:53
fields a lot. And I do find that really calming.
50:57
And it does help me kind of get my mind off the
50:59
AI because I tend to kind of obsess over things.
51:03
All right. And you're in Brevard? Brevard, yeah.
51:09
Brevard. OK. So what's the best place to eat
51:12
there or maybe nearby? Well, if you want a really
51:16
good chef cooked meal square root Is it kind
51:19
of famous here but best wings on the planet are
51:22
big mics? I'm a big wing aficionado and they
51:26
have the best that I've had anywhere What's your
51:30
spice level medium, okay And let's say you know
51:36
you're called up to do a keynote What's going
51:40
to be your walk up song? But you are playing
51:42
it except on that stage. I had to actually do
51:44
some thinking on this one, but I think the the
51:47
dog days are over by Florence and the machine.
51:51
Good one. Yeah. All right. So we're going to
51:56
get you into the this or that one here for the
51:58
last thing. And so for this one, you can only
52:00
choose one thing. So this is a bit tougher. And
52:04
so I'm going to go through these and the first
52:06
one actually gives you three options. So you
52:08
can only choose one. to keep chat, GPT, Claude,
52:13
or Gemini. Right now I'd have to say Claude,
52:16
co -work, our best friend lately. Yeah. Yeah.
52:20
I've been using Claude and it's been all I've
52:23
been using. So it's been awesome. I still use
52:26
them all, but I find it's the most product helps
52:28
me being the most productive. Yeah. Deep fake
52:33
video or deep fake audio. What scares you more?
52:36
The video, I think. because now it has audio
52:40
with it. Yeah, that's true. Ocean or mountains?
52:49
Definitely mountains. I'm a mountain girl. Okay.
52:54
Sounds good. And then a big keynote or small
52:57
group workshop. What do you prefer? I like a
52:59
keynote, but I like for them to have some hands
53:03
on options during it. coffee or tea or something
53:09
else that, you know. Coffee. Okay. Coffee. And
53:14
then what do you turn to first, paper and pencil
53:16
or tech? Tech, I'd say. Go tech first. Okay.
53:22
And then here's our last one. All the sticky
53:23
notes on my desk. Maybe I'm lying to myself.
53:26
Yeah. Okay. So this one, this is a tough one,
53:32
I think. Fix the guidelines or fix the professional
53:36
development. Yeah, that one's hard to choose.
53:40
I would say professional development But the
53:43
guidelines need to guide does so tough one Okay
53:48
All right. Well, we want to thank you again.
53:50
Is there anything we mentioned a couple things
53:53
during the conversation? But is there anything
53:54
that you want to plug as far as upcoming events
53:57
that you're doing things you're you're putting
53:59
on or you know, obviously you're consulting company,
54:04
your socials, anything like that that you want
54:06
to mention and that we can provide in our description
54:08
for the listeners. I'd love to connect on LinkedIn.
54:11
That seems to be my PLC community. I am doing
54:15
a webinar in a couple of weeks on our human agency
54:17
framework. So the NCDPI AI resources page has
54:22
all of our webinars. So that will be coming up.
54:24
Love to see people there. And that's about it.
54:29
Awesome. Well, we want to thank you again, Vera,
54:32
for joining us. And I hope that listeners will
54:36
check out your work that you've done with North
54:38
Carolina and your consulting as well. And you
54:42
just want to thank you. OK, thank you so much.
54:45
Bye. Thank you.