Latest / Salish Wolf / #82 Stephan Zenz on Project Quiver

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#82 Stephan Zenz on Project Quiver · Salish Wolf

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Welcome to Project Quiver, a father daughter journey across
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the globe to capture the artistry and spirit of the
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world's finest traditional bow carvers.
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I'm Todd, the father. Ella is my daughter.
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Together we're on a mission to create a stunning coffee table
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book that profiles more than a dozen master bow years and their
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unparalleled skill. For each chapter, we travel to
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the Bow Years workshop. Carve a bow under his guidance,
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photograph his woodcraft in detail and share his story here
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on the Salish Wolf Podcast. The book is called Quiver the
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Art of Life. Through Bow Craft and this
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journey, our living story is Project Quiver.
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I came across your website. Thank you for your Instagram
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first, but then your website maybe last week.
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It was gorgeous. I was blown away by it, which is
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why I reached out to you right away.
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So thanks for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me.
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Yeah, so you're a photographer as well as a Bowyer?
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Yes, I had AI have a background of as a camera operator, so I
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worked in the media productions. So there was always something
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that, yeah, was more than a hobby, was a job.
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And so photography always was part of my life, Yeah.
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Nice. And then are you still working
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in that industry? No, not like before.
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Do you have work now or is your full time work Boyer?
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I started my own business as a self in self-employment and I'm
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working currently as a nature and wilderness teacher.
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Cool. So and building balls, but it's
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not like a full time job building bows, but maybe it's
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going to be. Yeah.
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How long have you been doing it? Not that long, it's like 3
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years. OK, where are you based?
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I'm based in the eastern part of Austria.
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It's yeah, I live close to a small town called Monkey.
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It's like 45 minutes South of Vienna.
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Got it. Is that is that where you grew
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up? Yes.
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I mean, there's a lot of, I grew up in a neighborhood village,
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but neighboring village. But yeah, it's close.
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There seems to be a lot of bowyers in Austria.
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It seems to yes. I know some personally and it's
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I get to know more every month. Yeah.
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Have you studied with any of them or collaborated in any way
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with any of them? Yeah, I did some courses at
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other lawyers places. Which about yours?
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I started my first boat building class at Gehad Wiesela.
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He's based in the southern part of Austria, in southeast.
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And then I did some O building classes when I did my program
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for becoming a nature and violence teacher.
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And then it totally gotten. Yeah.
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So what's your work like with the nature and wilderness
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teaching? I I have like a little kids
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group. I go out with them to nature and
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I teach them like survival skills and show them additive
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plans. We build, we do some bushcraft
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and stuff like that. Building shelters.
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Yeah. And I do some.
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I mean, I started recently starting all of this.
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So I'm currently preparing all of this.
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I set up a whole program for the year with like both building
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classes and I do like in one month we go out for river
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adventure with kids for like 4 days going with the canoe with
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90 kilometers on a river between Austria and Slovakia.
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And then we sleep in the wild and yeah.
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That's like it all. How did you get into this?
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Like a few years ago I was, I was self-employed as a video
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producer. And like I said, I've worked in
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the media branch and I was employed, also employed at a big
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media company here in Austria. And then I had some mental
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struggles, say like that, and I quit after more than 10 years of
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doing this. I had like enough of sitting
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from the computer all the time. I mean, it was out of
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productions as well, doing camera jobs and that
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productions. But yeah, I'd like to.
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It didn't work out for me anymore.
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And so I found this program of becoming a nature wireless
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teacher, which like I had no connection to this like before.
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I mean, like I was always in the nature and went out for
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mountaineering and I spent a lot of time outdoors, but not like
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specifically on that program. But it's all really interesting.
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And so I, I just did it, it was like one year program.
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And after that I had like this. Yeah, it felt right.
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So you like that? That's awesome.
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Yeah. And it's, it's like, yeah.
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If you watch the kids, especially the kids, I mean,
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it's with adults as well. They, they just love being
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outdoors. It's it's it's, it's their
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natural, natural habitat. It's our natural habitat.
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And so I found like this, I found this connection to, to
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myself and to all the people and to our to to to our human being.
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Yeah. And that work you were doing as
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a photographer, camera operator on on sets and stuff, that's
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hard. It's it's those are long hours.
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I'm sure you were putting in sometimes 12:15, 16-18 hour
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days. It's crazy.
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Yeah, and it's a really fast job because I did a lot of
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commercials and advertising and it's like 1 after the other.
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I mean I liked it for a while and I like being self-employed
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and and being like arranging my time for myself.
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And I've been to really great productions and I've been
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travelling a lot, working in different places.
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I've been filming in the mountains and of all kind of
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cool places. It's also a great opportunity to
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to look behind the scenes, different occasions.
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So yeah, but it's, it's a tough, tough approach.
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And yeah. Did you start Bo carving while
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you were doing that or was that something that came after you
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quit? It was like somewhere on the on
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the edge of of quitting and starting this new.
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And how did that begin for you? That's a good question.
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I wasn't really into archery. My brother did a lot of archery
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in his teenage life. And so when I was at home after
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quitting, I did some archery and I did a program for making your
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own leather shoes and the company who offers that, they
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also had like, like a flyer for building bowls.
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And I was like, OK, that sounds interesting.
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I had no, no real connection to that.
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Then me and my friend, me and a friend of mine just registered
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for a course. Yeah, I was totally fascinated
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that that ball building even exists and that kind of.
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Pretty cool, isn't? It I was like, really, you can
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you do that for a living? And it's, yeah, to have like a
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stick or, or safe and I'm making something out of it.
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And I, I remember that the moment when I, I took the first
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shot and I was like, wow, it's really fascinating.
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And I kept it like a trophy or like some, some artifact at the,
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at the first few weeks, I was really like, I don't even want
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to shoot it or use it. Yeah, well, it was so special to
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me. What kind of bow was it?
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It was Ratan. OK, I've never made one, but
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I've, I don't even know if I've seen one, but I've I've heard of
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them, yeah. It's actually not a tree.
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It's a grass, isn't it? Yeah, it's kind of grass.
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I don't know a word in English. Leon Leona.
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Like the things that grow around trees.
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Oh, the vines. Yeah, but it's it's a really,
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really great material fulfillment votes.
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OK at. Least for me.
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Yeah, yeah. Well, what was the draw weight
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on it? Or what is?
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It's like 34. OK, Yeah.
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It's yeah, it's like the way I use most of the time.
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And then you from there started making your own.
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Or did you? Study other people on a on a
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second course on the second class and there we build a
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classic S bowl, a flat bowl out of like locust.
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And that was like a new a next step or a new dimension for me
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to to have this differences between the the Raton bowl and
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then this this wooden bowl S bowl.
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And I was found the the in a way to to make the bowl like taking
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away the the the grocery ring and everything really
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fascinating. So when I got home from this
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class, I had like the urge to to build another one.
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And so I yeah, sorry. Was that with the same teacher
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or someone else? Oh, it was a different teacher.
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Who was that? That that was a bigger class and
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during my year program and we had like three teachers at one
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time, but the the main teacher was Hom Bachman and Floyd and
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Watney Harbour. They they are from Tyrol, from
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the western part of Austria. And, and Ron, a teacher at the
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time, he, he, he learned a lot of skills from, from, from wild,
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honest teachers from the US and also natives in America.
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And he'd be like, I don't know, hundreds of old.
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So after that black locust bow, you were hooked.
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Yes, totally. And did you then start making
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them on your own? Yeah, I, I, I searched for a
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place where I can build them because yeah, in my home there
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is no room for that. And my grandmother, she has an
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old bar that she didn't uses and so I asked her if if I can make
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her a little workshop. She had no problem with that.
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So, and then I had to start from scratch like, OK, where do I
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start with what do I start? And I, I knew from asking around
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and, and some literature, I knew some, some Boldwood that would
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be good. And then I started looking
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around and asking people. And then I got my hands on a few
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youth staves from a guy who stopped bow building and he was
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selling some old staves and some some pieces leftovers.
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And then I got my hand on some youth staves.
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And yeah, I had my difficulties with with the growth rings on EU
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because they were really, really small.
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And then I think the first two or three you both.
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Broke. Wow, that's sad.
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And then I found out that the wood wasn't that good anymore.
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It was an how do you say over dried.
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OK. And and and some pieces are used
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were not really good for bone or making it work.
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And because of that, it even kept me going more.
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So I thought, OK, that's I said to myself, that's the teaching.
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That's the teaching because it was kind of a miserable.
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And after spending hours of ball building that the bolts just
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crack in your hand or I mean, they exploded.
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And so I got, so I found another ball maker who who had some
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stapes in his backyard. And then I, I got some stapes
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from him and I started collecting, asking around and
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yeah. And then I think the third or
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fourth bow, I remember the first one, like I really built by
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myself that was really special. Then I knew it's it's unknown
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fire. Do you harvest your own stapes
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too? Yes, I do, but not primarily.
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So it's it's a mixture of I have some friends who are tree
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workers or they have like, I don't know a word in English.
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They they cut woods for for living.
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Yeah, OK. What kind?
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What kind of wood are you harvesting?
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By myself. Yeah.
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I recently got some elderberry, purple leaf plum and I did
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harvest on black locust and the friend friends of mine, they
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because they they get a chop to cut down a tree or a branch or
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whatever. Usually they burn it or they
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bring it to like a place where it's yeah down and used for
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something else. But they don't use like the
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whole tree anymore. And so they they bring it to me,
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It gives me a call and he says I have this in this tree and if I
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want it like last year I got like 2 trees of red oak from
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him. And they really look mass like
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from the from the growth lanes and from the.
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Yeah, that's a great source to have.
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Yeah, it is. Just delivered right to you.
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Yeah, and I have some friends who gave me like ash trees and
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stuff like that and other bow makers as well.
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I, I bought both. I bought some states as well
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from other bow makers, especially in the beginning.
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So the last three years of your life, I've seen a lot of change.
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So you left one profession, you got into wilderness work.
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You then decided the wilderness work was going to be a career
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for you, and then you started a business around it.
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What is your business called? It's called Latif Berg, which
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actually just means native work, Yeah.
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And why are children the main focus of the work that you do?
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I don't know, it just happened, so just.
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Happened OK. Well, I mean, I know that all
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the wireless programs and all the other wilderness and schools
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here in Austin, especially in Austria, they have kids program
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and I watched them and I was like totally fascinated about
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the other kids behave. They're like if you if you give
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them the right environment and the right teachings, they're
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fully alive. There's nothing more than being
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alive and outdoors. And so this that that catch me
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in a way. And so I started my own little
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bottomless school with my kids with the kids flop.
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So when you. When you left your career, you
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were feeling mentally burnt out or or buried down.
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How has that shifted now? How does this feel for you?
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Say again sorry. How How do things feel for you
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now? Good.
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Are you enjoying this career far a lot more?
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Yeah. I mean, you know, the things
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that that brought me into this problem, I say they're
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intrinsic. So they come from me, like all
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the, the the influences from from outside.
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These are my decisions, how I handle them.
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So I know how I can like, I can easily exhaust myself, let's say
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like that. So I but I'm but that the work
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as a wilderness teacher and ball making helped me a lot to ground
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and to yeah, get a new perspective.
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And the the kids help with that, don't they?
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Sorry. The kids help give you a new
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perspective too, I'm sure. Yeah.
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Totally, because they're absolutely in the moment and
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they ask funny questions and keep you alive and keep you in
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focus. Especially yeah, because they're
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doing funny things. Do you have kids of your own?
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Yes, I have one one older stepson.
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He's turning 18 and I have all a little boy who is like 1 1/2.
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Wow, yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, it is.
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And with your kids in the wilderness training, are they
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making bows as well? Do you teach them?
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Yeah, we do. Like we have like this this
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afternoon program and if someone says I want to build a boat, we
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can build a boat. We also made like fish Spears
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last week. We built like a little floating
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platform, I wouldn't say can move up, but like a yeah, we
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just tied some driftwood together and the kids were like
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running down the river streets and we're building shelters and
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yeah, practicing meeting fire and stuff like that.
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Or like, do you mean, yeah, the kids come up with with ideas by
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themselves. And we also do like wood
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carving, and some kids just love to sit there and carve on one
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stick for three hours or like get their hands into the dirt
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and feel like sculptures and stuff.
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And do you have a background in wood carving before you got into
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bow making? Not really.
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I mean, before bow making, I I started carving like in
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sculptures and stuff like that because I found really healing
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to work with my hands. There's yeah, there's a kind of
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connection to working hands and it gets me into like a deep
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focus and gets me grounded. I like like, like in the like,
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it wasn't the media business. I'm interested in creating stuff
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like living my creativity. And yeah.
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And so I had this, I mean, my whole life I had this interest
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in, in woodworking. I was always like building
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smaller things out of the wood or if if I had an idea for a
22:55
home like gutter roll out of driftwood and something like
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that, that was always an interesting me.
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But Bo building is like a different level because I mean,
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you know it by yourself having a piece of wood.
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And then in the end, we have like this beautiful performing
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instrument, I would say is something deeply fascinating.
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And are you still carving in the same workshop in your
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grandmother's barn? No, I recently found new place.
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It's like, yeah, it's a few minutes away from my home and I
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rent now this beautiful place in a small valley where I've the
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the possibility for for making board classes and making kids
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camps and also adult camps. I did some men camps for for
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men, wild honest camps. And I have my own Man Group.
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We meet like one of the cinema and stuff like that.
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And here is the great possibility to do things like
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that because I have no neighbor. I have like there's forest
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everywhere all around me. Wow, beautiful place.
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And I'm really, really thankful for finding this.
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So are you renting? Are you renting the land?
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Is that? Yes, it's a, it's a, it's a,
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it's a, it's a land. It's a place with, with hunting,
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Meadow, grass field and a small house.
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And yeah, and I, I built here a little workshop.
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But you don't live in the house. No, I mean I I can't sleep here
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from time to time see different times time but it's like only 20
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minutes drive from a. Flat OK and is that there's a
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picture on your Instagram somewhere of.
25:08
Yeah. Aerial view.
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Yes, well, that's it. That's it.
25:13
Oh, wow. OK, that's really cool.
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So just nothing but nothing but wilderness around you.
25:20
Yeah, but there's also a nature park.
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It's some something like smaller version of a National Park.
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I would say it has different restrictions to it.
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It's not really a National Park, but it's like a protected area.
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And that's, like, right in front of me.
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Yeah. It's trees everywhere.
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I mean, a lot of Pines, but yeah.
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And do you get a lot of snow there?
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Like this winter, there was more snow than the last few years,
26:00
but there hasn't been so many, so much snow like they are the
26:04
last 10-15 years. It's getting less of this year
26:09
or there was a lot of snow, Yeah.
26:13
So you do men's work, men's group, men's retreats, and then
26:16
you work with kids. It's all very cool.
26:19
Yeah. How long you been doing men's
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work? Also three years.
26:24
OK. Well, so many changes for you.
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Did you get into that as a participant originally?
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Yeah. And then you started leading
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things. Yeah, I attended some men men's
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retreats and I found it really healing, especially because
26:48
before that I didn't know that was really a thing like focusing
26:55
on on being a man. That was even strange to say
27:00
from me, like years before what it even means and that of then I
27:06
found some teachers that perspective that that made like
27:17
everything made sense there and everything was like, yeah,
27:22
connecting with myself and all that kind of problems and stuff
27:28
like that. I had there weren't like
27:31
problems anymore because yeah, I found that missing link.
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So I had the the call to to bring that to my area, to the
27:42
people I know, to the men I know.
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And yeah, and I'm doing this since that.
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Your men's group, I think you said you have.
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Is that something that you host on a regular basis?
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Yeah, and it's 1 evening a month.
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Is that in person or online? Yeah, it's in person.
28:05
We get here on the place and sit at the bonfire and in the winter
28:11
we go inside. Yeah.
28:15
And we were. Nice.
28:17
How many men typically do that? It's different, but it's
28:24
somewhere between 6:00 and 12:00.
28:28
Right. Yeah, that's very cool.
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And are they all from that local area or do some of them come
28:33
from far away? They're all local.
28:36
Yeah, yeah. Have you introduced them?
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Have you introduced them to archery and Bo carving?
28:50
Some of them, the last time we did, I also built on like a few
28:59
weeks ago I built an Apple Aqua and we did that last time.
29:05
It's really fun. Nice.
29:08
I I like that when, when the, when the men are around and you
29:11
have like a web tent or something like that.
29:13
Yeah. And everyone gets really hooked
29:16
on it and was really fun. Yeah, Allahuddles are
29:18
challenging too. Yeah, it is.
29:21
It's totally different. It's a lot harder than shooting
29:23
well, I think. But it looks easier actually I
29:28
think. Yeah.
29:30
From watching it, look, it's you think like, OK, it's just doing
29:33
like this. Yeah, but it's really hard.
29:36
Yeah, it is. Well, to be accurate with it,
29:38
definitely. Yeah, you can still not
29:41
anywhere, but with the target, it's not that easy.
29:45
Yeah. Have you died?
29:47
Yeah, yeah, it's not much, but a few of the Bowers that I worked
29:52
with had that laterals and so we'd we'd play with them and I.
29:57
Recently did read some article where it said it was the hunting
30:02
weapon before having bows. Yeah.
30:08
Yeah, it was kind of the I guess one of the primary, if not the
30:11
primary weapon before it was displaced by the bow.
30:14
So that was sometime around like 10,000 years ago probably, which
30:19
is it's to imagine. I, I was actually just thinking
30:24
about it or reading something, I don't know, the other day.
30:26
I was just thinking about like how accurate, how skilled they
30:29
must have to be in with those things to take down running
30:32
animals or in warfare. Because it's, it's just that
30:37
it's from what I have experienced, that spear does not
30:39
come out of the outlet with anywhere near the speed that an
30:42
arrow has coming out of a bow. And it's like what it's like
30:46
over 2 meters long, the spear that comes out and it's just,
30:50
it's really crazy. But and you need to get a really
30:53
close OK. So.
30:55
I don't like, like imagining having a ballad for in front of
30:59
you and you need to get really close, yeah.
31:05
It's pretty amazing. So your bow carving became
31:11
something that became a bit of an obsession after you started
31:14
carving. When I noticed most recently I
31:18
came across your Instagram, 'cause there was a post it was
31:20
probably your Last Post with as it was a bow, that it's all
31:25
covered up on my screen now, so I can't see it.
31:28
Hang on. It's got painting on it.
31:31
It's red and blue, a little, a little short thing.
31:36
Yeah. As soon as I saw that, I was
31:37
like, whoa, whoa, what are you shooting?
31:39
So what is that? It's Hoopa Europe ball.
31:47
It's a shortfall which like in as far as I know, it was built
31:54
like that from the natives from the northwestern part of the US,
32:01
somewhere in the northern part of California.
32:05
And I came across that when I was reading the for building
32:13
Bible or the traditional open Bible.
32:18
And I was like fascinated by the, by the painting and by the
32:24
design, like the pedal bow design, because it's really
32:27
unusual in comparison to, to other bows around the world.
32:34
And yeah, and I, I tried to build different bows all the
32:40
time to get like a wider perspective on, on gold molding.
32:45
And last year I thought like, yeah, it's a bit of a trial.
32:51
And I then I, I got AU stay for small one.
32:55
And The funny thing is that when I took down the the roof rings
33:03
and shaped it to this to the pedal ball design, my knife got
33:09
stuck in a nail because there was a nail in the tree.
33:14
And then I the interesting thing is that around the nail, the
33:21
whole woods turned purple, deep purple and even black in the
33:25
middle that was all already rotten.
33:29
And so the, the wood reacted or like the EU reacted on that iron
33:38
and it had this really beautiful purple patch on it.
33:43
And I thought like, Oh no, that's probably a weak spot.
33:46
But because I, I was backing it with sinew, with dear sinew, it
33:57
just helps together and it doesn't have, it's not an export
34:02
anyway. And and yeah, it was kind of a
34:07
struggle working with sinew the first time like this.
34:12
The this amount I did work was seen you before, but not like
34:16
matching the whole bow and making layers and stuff like
34:19
that. And I worked with height glue to
34:25
yeah, to glue it on. So then it dried for a few
34:28
months seems like four months and make it dry.
34:32
And yeah, then the first time bending it, it starts cracking
34:37
everywhere you hear like this cracks.
34:39
And I was right, like reminded on my first Bose which cracked
34:45
but it's just a glue opening up and gets less than more often
34:50
you bend it. So after the Sinner dried, I'm
34:55
just looking at some photos of it.
34:57
You sounded that down nice and smooth.
34:59
Yeah, OK. And the interesting part is of
35:02
the Hooper goat is that the tips, the end they cut into the
35:09
tips, at least according to the books and the videos I watched.
35:15
And something that would be totally mortal for every bowl
35:22
because you cut the tips and then bend it with, with heat and
35:31
then you glue it together and then you it looks like this and
35:36
then you move the sinew over it so it tasks together and you
35:42
have like this little band tips. Yeah, but it's it's rock solid.
35:51
So as long as it doesn't get wet, then it falls apart.
35:58
Shit. OK, very cool.
36:01
Yeah, then I painted it. Yeah.
36:04
How did you paint it? What did you use?
36:05
I just used accrual, yeah. I mean you could use earthbound
36:15
colours, but I just used agree. And what's the handle?
36:23
The handle is just never wrap around.
36:27
And then I use some fur of rabbits.
36:39
Yeah. And it was a lot of work and it
36:43
had so many steps in it, but it seems like it's never ending.
36:50
But I really enjoyed it and I learned a lot.
36:53
I was asking other buyers for tips and tricks on different
36:58
parts and different stages of the problem.
37:02
And you help me. There's even, there's even a
37:05
video a coming backward from whom it is, but he has a total
37:12
like a one hour documentary of how to build that.
37:17
Yeah. I wanted to get more into your
37:21
bow making so I'm I'm really impressed for three years of
37:25
doing this. Your bows are really beautiful
37:28
from what I can see on your Instagram and website.
37:31
You definitely have a gift with it.
37:33
What are some of your favorite bow woods for using or working
37:37
with? I did some bows from Osage,
37:44
which I really like. It's a great woods to work with.
37:51
Yeah, it's probably one of my favourites.
37:53
I really like you. It's not that easy to get, but I
38:01
I love the tree itself. It's it's a beautiful tree.
38:05
It has something mystical to it, I think.
38:11
And yeah, I think you is one of my favorite Bo Woods and black
38:17
locus as well. Yeah, I think Locus and Osage,
38:22
they're similar from from building like the structure of
38:27
wood is similar in the handle it.
38:33
What sort of tools are you using?
38:37
Most of the time the draw knife, the rasp.
38:41
I have a various rasp and I really love that Japanese Shinto
38:48
rest. Really nice tool.
38:53
And the card scrapers, yeah, that's about it.
38:57
And some. Paper and Are you working
39:02
primarily with natural materials, natural glues, and?
39:07
Not all of time, like the tips, the overlays.
39:11
I glue with epoxy and I sometimes use super glue.
39:18
Yeah. What?
39:19
What type of overlays are you using?
39:22
I have yeah, horrible like horn from cows or from the water
39:30
Buffalo. I recently used stabilized Elm.
39:38
It's like, yeah, it's stabilized with how do I Yeah, stabilizing
39:46
means like a compressing the wood with glue and it's all the
39:50
color comes with a greenish style and looks really.
39:58
Nice. It carves nicely.
40:01
Yeah, it carved nicely. What does that use for?
40:07
Green tips, What's nice? What's that used for otherwise?
40:12
I think it's it's, it's, it's a, it's as far as I know.
40:16
It's a method for making the book more compact and more
40:21
stable. I know some people make it for
40:24
using the handles of a knife. They're stabilizing the handle
40:30
because you can let the wood rotten in a way.
40:35
Then it gets harder say which they get like this little veins
40:43
of rot, you know what I mean? And then but the wood gets
40:49
softer, then they stabilize it on the vacuum and then you can
40:55
make the wood like like a really hardwood and you can use acrylic
41:02
colour and things like that. I've never done this, but as far
41:06
as I know it's made like that. Yeah.
41:09
Maybe someone knows better than something on me, but yeah.
41:14
And what are some of your favorite bow designs?
41:19
Yeah, I usually do like a flat bowl, but IX like every bowl I
41:29
built so far is some kind of different.
41:33
I try different lines, but that's like a classic flat ball
41:38
design. It's what I like.
41:40
Yeah, I've never been an English long ball, but I have a huge
41:45
safe in my cellar underneath and I'm planning on doing triangle.
41:57
And are you doing only self bows or are you making laminates
42:00
composites of? Any sort I only do self bows yes
42:04
I mean like the the senior back bow and I also have Osage with
42:11
with rawhide yeah that's. You have you have like a Chinese
42:18
5 curve bow on your website or on your Instagram.
42:24
Is that is that just a single piece of wood?
42:27
Yeah, it's Ratan. That's Ratan.
42:30
Yeah, OK. And it's painted red and I used
42:34
shellac to finish, so it has this glossy look.
42:42
The cool thing about Ratan is that it's you can almost do
42:48
anything with it. It's really easy to bend with
42:52
dry lead and yeah, and you can. And if you heat treats the belly
43:06
do recurse. It's a really nice perform.
43:11
And it holds the heat bends well.
43:14
Yeah. That's cool.
43:17
I mean, you have to look for, for heavier states.
43:23
They're like really you can also get really light staves, but you
43:30
need to look out for heavier walls, like they're more dense
43:37
because they have they have this capillaries, they're really long
43:43
structure and even through the small, if you cut like a piece
43:47
of like this, you can look through it.
43:51
Oh, really? Some of them are like, you need
43:56
to. If you have a dancer piece, then
43:59
you then it's like Rose, Yeah. And can you build heavy bows
44:03
with that or is it mostly light? I think you you need to back it
44:08
with bamboo or something like that.
44:10
I haven't done this. So I usually build them around
44:14
somewhere between. I mean, the kids bows go down
44:17
like 12 lbs, but I feel like I think through the 40s down to 40
44:25
lbs and then get over it. It's it's, it's OK.
44:30
Someone who's experienced with that from, I think like up to
44:38
40, it's, it's a mess. You have another photo of your
44:41
Instagram from above looking down while you are carving A
44:45
stave with a draw knife. Yeah.
44:48
Is that your current workshop? No.
44:51
That's your grandmother's barn. Yeah, it's my grandmother.
44:54
That's that's. Beautiful those floors are those
44:57
floors look amazing. Well, I think it's over 100
44:59
years old, Yeah. And it has a lot of history in
45:03
it. But it was an open space, so I
45:06
had no, the winter was like, yeah, it's outside.
45:09
Right. And that workbench looks really
45:12
ancient too. Yeah, I'm actually.
45:15
My lap you have. That on that here.
45:17
Yeah. It's, it's for my grandfather.
45:23
He gifted it to me. He was a woodworker.
45:27
I mean, he learned to be a Carpenter.
45:33
And he also got that from his uncle, I think.
45:39
So this bench is almost 90 years old I think.
45:44
So cool. Before he, he got it like
45:47
somewhere after the Second World War, and he had no use for it.
45:53
And it was like standing in the corner.
45:56
And so he gifted it to me and I, yeah, it's really, it's amazing.
46:01
It's such a treasure. Yeah, it is.
46:05
And and then how did you capture that photo, the lighting so cool
46:09
on it? Was that a drone or someone?
46:12
I I mounted the camera on the bar on top the ceiling.
46:17
Yeah, I have like this light and I placed just the camera on and
46:22
the light is just natural sunlight.
46:26
The lights, all natural sunlight, yeah.
46:28
Wow, usually. I usually always use natural
46:32
light as far as possible. That's a really cool.
46:36
It's a great photo. A lot of your photos, they're
46:38
beautiful. You have a ton of wildlife
46:40
photos. You've taken all of those.
46:41
Yeah. It's amazing.
46:44
What kind of camera do you shoot with normally?
46:46
I use a Canon 60. It's it's, it's a quite an older
46:51
one, yeah, but I used, I took them everywhere I took them,
46:57
took it around the world. I I've been there to Patagonia
47:00
with it. I've been in caves with the
47:02
camera. I've been to all kind of
47:05
conditions, freezing and hot and it just works.
47:10
And yeah, I mean, the, the, the, the, the important part of the
47:17
camera is the lens actually. So the camera itself, yeah.
47:24
How old is yours? When when we did Project
47:27
Quipper, my daughter was shooting on a a Nikon.
47:30
Was it AD 5500, which I know is at least 10 years old because
47:33
I've had it for at least that long.
47:36
And we are wondering if we're if we're doing a volume to if we
47:39
should upgrade. But I don't know enough about
47:41
photography to know if it if it makes sense or if that body's
47:44
good enough. Yeah, that's that's before you
47:52
invest in the new camera. Invest in the new lens.
47:55
Yeah, yeah. If you have like $2000, use 500
48:01
for the camera, 1500 for the lens.
48:05
Plus, that's where the light comes through and the picture is
48:08
made. Yeah, your, your photos are
48:13
really gorgeous and mixed in with your beautiful bows.
48:17
Yeah, really, I'm, I'm surprised it looks like you've been doing
48:19
this for a lot longer than three years.
48:21
I'm very impressed with how amazing your bows look.
48:25
Yeah, actually. How many do you think?
48:27
Yeah. Sorry, actually photographing
48:29
bows is really difficult. It's extremely difficult.
48:33
Yeah, because they are like thin and and long and you can't get a
48:39
real angle where you protect them in the way they actually
48:44
look naturally. Yeah, Yeah, it's hard.
48:48
Yeah, I think my daughter was averaging about probably around
48:52
1400 photos per Bowyer that we worked with.
48:56
And then we'd go through those. And then in the book, that
48:59
quiver, the book that's coming out in a few months, we narrowed
49:02
that down to like 20, maybe 20 to 25 photos per chapter.
49:09
The bows are the hardest things to capture, especially in their,
49:13
their entirety. It's easy to capture bits and
49:16
pieces of it, but to capture the bows and really do them justice.
49:21
And then we were also, she was also trying not to do them all
49:23
the same exact way that the background needed to reflect the
49:27
bow year and the environment where we were.
49:30
And so it was, it was a, it was a challenge for sure.
49:33
And we had so many photos. It was just like damn it, Nope,
49:37
Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, and we go through 100 nopes until we
49:40
get the 1 and that's the one. All right, let's go back and get
49:43
more like that. Did you found like the like that
49:47
angle that works for her? Did we find?
49:51
Sorry. Like that perspective or that
49:54
angle that works best. Well, again, that was the
49:59
problem of trying not to have a lot of duplicated perspectives.
50:04
And so, yeah, there are, There are, there are somewhere.
50:09
I know she was holding it and she's right-handed, so I could
50:11
tell she was holding the bow on her left hand.
50:13
And those tended to work a fair bit.
50:17
But we're also trying to find, put the bow into backgrounds or
50:21
settings that not only showcased the bow, but also captured
50:27
something about the bow year or the bow year's environment,
50:32
which is tricky to do because the focus needs to be the bow.
50:36
And I don't, we didn't want that to be drowned out with a busy
50:39
background. So it was just kind of, there's
50:42
so many different varieties of photos that came out that ended
50:45
up working and fortunately they ended up working.
50:47
So, but no, I don't think there was really any one thing that
50:52
seemed to work more. And if we do a volume to, I'm
50:55
sure she's going to have just as many struggles as the Prince
50:58
that was. Just a lot of experience now
51:00
with photographing pose. Yeah.
51:03
It's maybe just a hard thing to what else in the world
51:06
photographed like 1200 and bows. No, I think she's probably
51:12
photographed the most bows and has, or at least, yeah, she's
51:16
taken 10s of thousands of photos of bows now, and that was just
51:19
over the span of five months. So.
51:21
But yeah, it was a cool experience.
51:23
But yeah, it's very hard to do it justice.
51:25
But you have your your photos look amazing.
51:29
I'm also seeing you have a lot of mountaineering and like
51:33
caving. Yeah, that's something that you
51:36
do a lot. I did that's.
51:38
What was that? All in Austria or else.
51:42
The caves are in Austria, Yeah, because in Austria for a lot of
51:47
caves and the mountains as well. Yeah, I did a.
51:52
Lot do you is. Is that something you still do
51:56
quite a bit of? Caving.
51:58
Not. Not anymore, Really.
52:00
Yeah, yeah. I had one accident in the case
52:06
and then I was like, yeah, wasn't really into caving
52:11
anymore. That gave me a lot of respect.
52:14
Wow. Yeah, and.
52:18
What kind of accident? Yeah, it was my fault.
52:22
The floor just disappeared under my feet, really, the tiny cave
52:29
room. And I mean, like, disappeared.
52:33
They was all like loose rocks. And you try to open up a little
52:40
hole and it's just all the loose rocks went through the hole,
52:46
like if you open the bath tube, Yeah.
52:51
Yeah, the. Was, I was alone in the room.
52:55
And so I had to get out of this room.
52:58
And I, I, yeah, I chomped on this little ledge and the other
53:04
room was twice as big as before. And I was really scared about
53:12
even touching the floor anymore. And yeah, I was, that was a
53:17
really tough situation for me, but I love, I actually still
53:25
love going into caves because it's it's it seems like a total
53:30
unnatural world, like a different planet and.
53:35
It's. You can really be an explorer
53:38
there because it's actually totally dark.
53:41
And photographing in caves, that was actually the thing that
53:45
interests me the most, because everything is dark.
53:48
It's just black everywhere. There's no source of light and
53:53
you can create your own image by setting lights and that.
54:00
Yeah, you've done an amazing job.
54:02
Yeah. The photos are so cool.
54:07
Thank. You.
54:09
Yeah. What kind of bows are you
54:10
working on right now? I have a recently finished an
54:17
Osage with small tips like it looks like from the Molika Bates
54:25
design and then I have one elder bearing preparation and I have
54:33
one cherry plum which is just. How many bows do you think you
54:42
How many bows do you think you've made?
54:44
Somewhere between 35 and 40. Wow, that's again like I'm blown
54:53
away by the quality that I see because that's it's not that
54:56
many bows, but they look really beautiful.
54:59
Yeah, but I think like the 1st 1 1/2 year I did nothing else than
55:03
Pope like every day. And what now after doing 40
55:12
bows? What is Is there something that
55:15
you still struggle with? Is there a challenge?
55:19
With. Each bow or I can a challenge
55:21
consistently that you face. Challenge.
55:27
I mean, every, every state is different.
55:35
All the states shows me where to go and every state has its own
55:41
differences, difficulty, but I like every step of it.
55:49
I really, yeah, I enjoy marking the ball or like drawing the
55:56
sign of it because it's like the first picture of the ball, final
56:04
ball. And yeah, tailoring is something
56:11
that's really gives me respect because that's the, yeah, the
56:17
part where you can like the most changes, I think.
56:22
Yeah. Do you have a fairly standard
56:24
Tillering set up? Yeah, I have.
56:28
I have two boards and 1 tillering stick.
56:35
With a digital scale. No, with A and a lot.
56:40
Here, Yeah. OK.
56:43
And then for your carving on so on, are you carving your bows on
56:48
that bench that you're at right now on that workbench?
56:50
I did. I did most of the bows there,
56:54
but it's actually a really small bench and it looks.
56:57
Really small. Yeah, I'll have to.
56:59
I have to screw it into the floor because then it starts to
57:03
bump it's. Too late.
57:04
Yeah, I wondered about that. And I also did some
57:07
stabilizations and preparations that it's more stable.
57:11
But where I'm right now in the workshop, I, I did some new
57:17
tables and yeah, and I made it ready for, for classes already
57:25
had a kids spoke last year. So they work well.
57:29
What kind of wood were they carving?
57:31
Raton. OK.
57:33
Is that you feel that's a good wood for teaching?
57:37
Yeah, I think so, because it's really forgiving.
57:41
It hardly breaks the balls. I feel they have never problem
57:48
about breaking or even hardly breaking because they are
57:53
structured really is long then structures really long.
57:58
The wood, yeah, they hardly break.
58:03
They're really forgiving and you can easily make some changes to
58:09
it if there are like bands in there.
58:12
If you see like bands in the tillering, Yeah.
58:14
And they're easy to hit. Tweet.
58:17
Where do you get the roton from? I bought them at a reseller in
58:22
Germany. I drove up to like, yeah,
58:27
somewhere in the South of Germany.
58:30
Then I bought a whole bunch of them as they're from Asia
58:36
originally, yeah. What happens when you run out of
58:39
those? Do you have another another
58:42
supplier? There are some ball makers who
58:47
sell them in Germany and Austria and you can get them from basket
58:53
makers. Actually the one I bought he's a
58:57
reseller for basket making materials and they are used for
59:03
like the bark of it and arts of of the rattan is used for basket
59:10
making. And here in Europe it's it's
59:13
traditional to make garden benches and chairs.
59:19
Maybe it's in the US as well. OK.
59:23
But we have a lot of rattan furniture.
59:28
In the garden and and maybe you mentioned it, but where does the
59:31
Raton grow? It grows in Indonesia, I think
59:35
in Thailand as well. Yeah, that's.
59:37
What I thought OK cool. What upcoming bow projects or
59:44
challenges do you have? Anything with your planning you
59:48
stays a really nice one that's ready to be coming.
59:55
A bow. I have some Osage left and yeah,
1:00:01
some red oak which I'm really looking forward to.
1:00:06
Currently I last year in the winter collected a lot of wood
1:00:11
so it's probably lasting for a while.
1:00:18
What is one of the most significant things you've
1:00:20
learned from bow carving? Patience is a part of it and
1:00:40
yeah, it's for me, it's the, it's this connection to that
1:00:45
natural material. I think one of the fascinating
1:00:49
thing is that you have a stick which becomes a fully performing
1:00:54
instrument and this it's kind of the edge between having this
1:01:04
artwork and also at the same time having a weapon which it
1:01:10
actually is. This mixture is like totally
1:01:15
fascinating. Yeah, absolutely.
1:01:19
And it teach me, yeah, it teach me a lot also the process of the
1:01:28
rough work to the fine work. And yeah, I would say the most
1:01:33
thing I learned is focus, because if you make a mistake at
1:01:38
one stage, it's going to be a problem maybe in two or three
1:01:43
stages after that. So keeping the focus on on every
1:01:48
step is what I learned in BOMIC. And where can people learn more
1:01:57
about you and your craft? I have a website, it's
1:02:02
www.matifback.at for Austria. I also have Instagram.
1:02:09
It's Matif back underline Stefan Tents pH.
1:02:15
And yeah, I do some ball classes for beginners and I also do a
1:02:24
ball ball building gathering. I organize a ball building
1:02:29
gathering in September with some friends.
1:02:33
I attended to one last year that was really great opportunity to
1:02:41
learn other ball makers and spend a weekend all together
1:02:45
building. Everyone builds on this project
1:02:48
and device standard. Yeah, sitting at the bonfire in
1:02:52
the evening of talking about bones and stuff.
1:02:55
So. So that that happens on your
1:02:57
property there. Yeah, in September.
1:03:00
And where do the bowyers mostly come from?
1:03:02
Is it mostly Austrian or they come from other countries?
1:03:05
It's Austria, yeah. But everyone can come.
1:03:08
So I have this place for like 10 to 12 ballmakers if they're more
1:03:17
interested. Yeah, we have to get some work
1:03:19
matches. Very cool.
1:03:22
Yeah. Does that have a a name that
1:03:26
that little gathering? I just called it.
1:03:29
I mean, a friend of mine, he organized last year, but he's
1:03:32
not going to organize it this year.
1:03:34
So I talked with him and he said, yeah, let's do it here.
1:03:39
And yeah, because I learned so much on that gathering, having
1:03:45
all the different eyes and the bowls and everyone's having
1:03:48
their own experience. And I really enjoyed just yeah,
1:03:53
the community. So people bring their own staves
1:03:56
and their own tools. Yeah, they bring old staves and
1:03:59
tools. The I prepared the the place and
1:04:06
it's we have you can camp here and you know, they're making
1:04:10
food on fire. That's really cool.
1:04:14
Wow, so you bring, Although everyone brings all their own
1:04:17
food too. And preparing.
1:04:18
Meals every now they pay like a small amount of small price and
1:04:22
I organize the food and yeah. Very cool, I like that.
1:04:28
Yeah. So if you have time.
1:04:31
Yeah, Yeah, that sounds really intriguing for sure.
1:04:38
Awesome. We'll keep it up.
1:04:39
And that is, I love what you're doing.
1:04:41
And again, wow, you've got you've got a bright future ahead
1:04:44
of you if you stick with this. Your workmanship is incredible,
1:04:48
or so it seems. I've never shot one of your bows
1:04:51
so I don't know if they shoot, but they look really beautiful.
1:04:56
Yeah, it's true. It's.
1:04:57
Do you have any anything else you want to add or any questions
1:05:00
before we sign off? Know how about your book, your
1:05:05
project? I really enjoyed watching you.
1:05:08
It's grow. It's.
1:05:10
Thank you. I followed it like last year and
1:05:12
it's it's thank you for doing this.
1:05:14
It's really. Yeah.
1:05:16
It's really great source of Yeah, it's a really great
1:05:20
source. It's been really exciting.
1:05:22
Our publisher just on Sunday, yesterday, yeah, I think
1:05:26
yesterday we just got the final digital draft.
1:05:30
And so I'm doing one last read through early this week and then
1:05:34
it goes off to the printer by the end of the week.
1:05:36
So let's it is, it's basically done and then we just have to
1:05:40
wait several months for it to get printed, but it'll be out in
1:05:44
October. And it's, I knew it was going to
1:05:46
be beautiful, but it's far exceeded my expectations.
1:05:49
The publisher did an amazing job and the photos look so good.
1:05:53
So I'm really happy with it. It's I'm excited.
1:05:56
I want to do it again. I want to do another round, but
1:05:59
we'll see that this, this has to it has to sell well enough to
1:06:03
make that a possibility, but I would love to do another volume
1:06:07
of it. You sell it in Europe as well.
1:06:10
Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, it'll be, we're going to do a pre
1:06:13
publication launch sale. I think that's going to happen
1:06:17
in about a month. We'll have that open for about
1:06:20
one to two weeks. That's what we're pushing
1:06:22
towards. And then after that, it'll be
1:06:26
available on all major booksellers throughout the,
1:06:31
well, throughout much of the world.
1:06:32
But I think Europe and North America will be the two main
1:06:34
focal points because there were 7 Bowers from each of those
1:06:38
areas. And there's a distributor.
1:06:42
The books are shipped both from the UK and from the US, so yeah.
1:06:47
And what's the the the if you compare it to before the book
1:06:55
and now, what did you learn the most?
1:06:57
I'm interested. Oh man, yeah.
1:07:00
What did I learn? Well.
1:07:03
What did you find out? Yeah, well, there was so much
1:07:07
'cause I got to carve a bow with every bow here.
1:07:09
And so I as far as learning technical tricks of the craft
1:07:14
and learning different approaches to it and about
1:07:17
different woods and different tools.
1:07:20
Like for me, it was just, it was, it was like a lifetime
1:07:25
education condensed into five months.
1:07:26
It was so incredible to learn from these amazing bowyers.
1:07:30
So that was just something that's, you know, irreplaceable
1:07:35
for me. But beyond that, it was I, I'm
1:07:39
telling the stories of each of the bowyers my with words, my
1:07:42
daughter's telling the stories in photograph.
1:07:44
So it was a really great experience for me to be able to
1:07:48
interview all of the bowyers both in person and during doing
1:07:51
podcasts and to create their story and to be able to put that
1:07:55
in words that hopefully it is enjoyable for others to read and
1:08:00
also a a tribute to each of the bowyers.
1:08:05
So the, the subtitle of the book Quiver is the Art of Life
1:08:08
through Bow Craft. And so I'm really trying to
1:08:11
focus as much on their life and the, and the art of life as I am
1:08:19
on the craft of making bows. And so it takes us through
1:08:23
stories that are not always directly related to bow carving,
1:08:27
but basically narrate their journey through their, whatever
1:08:32
their genesis into bow carving was.
1:08:35
In many cases, it was different crises or other opportunities
1:08:39
that opened up that brought them into bow carving and then their
1:08:42
career as it's unfolded once they became kind of renowned in
1:08:47
that world of bow carving. So each chapter was really
1:08:50
different to write and a lot of fun.
1:08:53
And for me, I, I, I love writing.
1:08:55
And so that was really great to have a purpose.
1:08:59
Often I write, but I don't necessarily have that kind of
1:09:01
purpose. And I really felt the weight of
1:09:04
that responsibility because I want to do each of the ball
1:09:06
years justice and have a beautiful tribute to each of
1:09:10
them. And so it was something that I
1:09:12
felt a very strong responsibility to, to write it
1:09:16
beautifully. And hopefully, hopefully I did.
1:09:19
I had a great editor so that that certainly helps.
1:09:22
And my daughter, when we started, she was 14, she turned
1:09:26
15 midway through it and she had only been working with a camera
1:09:31
for six months prior to the journey.
1:09:34
And so it was just incredible to see her grow and expand behind
1:09:40
the camera and, and as a person too, because we were traveling
1:09:43
the world together for really the first time, one-on-one.
1:09:46
And it was her first time in Europe.
1:09:48
And, and so all of that was just, I'll, I'll never, never
1:09:53
forget those incredible experiences that we had.
1:09:55
And so in between visiting bowyers for four or five days at
1:10:00
a time, we'd normally stop in at a big city and explore the city
1:10:03
for a few days or some other, some other beautiful place.
1:10:07
And then we go into the countryside, typically where the
1:10:10
Bowyers lived, some of them lived in cities, but most of
1:10:12
them are more in rural areas. And so our trip was really kind
1:10:16
of broken up between these very tranquil country places, carving
1:10:22
bows. And then we'd hop on a train or
1:10:24
a plane and we'd end up in a city and we'd last like 2 days
1:10:27
before it felt too overstimulating and we'd start
1:10:30
craving in the country again and and bow carving.
1:10:32
So it was really amazing. And Austria ended up being one
1:10:36
of our main actually it was the most visited of all the places.
1:10:40
We had two bow years there, but our journeys kept bringing us
1:10:44
back into Austria. I think we came in and out of
1:10:46
Austria three times. We visited a few places beyond
1:10:51
the Bowyer places. We had a friend who we visited
1:10:54
in Innsbruck, no friend who we visited in Salzburg.
1:10:58
We met up with my wife and son in Innsbruck.
1:11:01
So we covered a lot of Austria by train, a lot of train time,
1:11:06
and it was really beautiful. It's small and it's it's
1:11:11
stunning. We didn't make it into Vienna or
1:11:14
anywhere into the east. It was mostly kind of central,
1:11:18
North and South and then through the West.
1:11:21
Beautiful, yeah. Yeah, thanks for the and then
1:11:25
the whole journey on the publishing has been really a lot
1:11:27
of fun too. And that's, this is my first
1:11:29
time doing that. So getting to work with a
1:11:31
publisher and being involved in every aspect of the book design
1:11:35
has been really so rewarding and incredible.
1:11:39
Really grateful for it. So yeah, it's I'm excited to
1:11:46
have it, the actual physical copy.
1:11:49
Yeah. We can share it with the world.
1:11:52
Yeah. All right, Stefano, I really
1:11:55
appreciate the the chat. Keep up the good work.
1:11:59
Stay in touch. And yeah, maybe I'll be joining
1:12:04
you in September for some Bo Carver.
1:12:05
Yeah. Will be a pleasure.
1:12:08
All right. Well, have a great day.
1:12:10
You too. Thanks for listening to Project
1:12:20
Quiver on Salish Wolf. Follow our journey on Instagram
1:12:23
at Project Quiver as we seek out the world's most extraordinary
1:12:27
traditional boat years and join our newsletter at
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projectquiver.com. Our coffee table book, Quiver,
1:12:33
The Art of Life through Bow Craft, arrives in 2026.
1:12:37
We are honored to share with you the beauty, history, and magic
1:12:41
of traditional archery.