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Plastic Is Still the Ocean's #1 Villain, with Dr. Judith Weis · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
Do you know everything there needs to know about marine pollution?
0:02
Or do you even think, "Well, maybe I shouldn't know."?
0:04
But I think you should know about marine pollution, because that is the topic
0:07
of today's episode with Dr. Judith Weis, who is a retired professor from
0:12
Syracuse University, who has written two editions of the book Marine Pollution.
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She's here to talk about her second edition, where we talk about
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everything that has to do with marine pollution, like what are the
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categories of marine pollution, and the last one's really gonna be a
0:25
surprise to you, but I agree with her.
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It is, uh, a category for marine pollution.
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And what can be done?
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And we're gonna talk about some challenges that we're facing now with microplastics,
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as well as some really good news stories that we've had in the past with sewage
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treatment plants, and how that's helped, really bring back and revitalize harbors
0:44
as well as, water quality and bringing back animals that weren't there or
0:48
that were lost because of dirty water.
0:50
So there's a lot of stuff that we discuss here, uh, and we discuss everything
0:54
in the book, so, uh, this is what we're gonna be talking about here on
0:57
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
0:59
Uh, if, this is the podcast, if you want information on the ocean and you
1:03
want to satisfy your, anxiety around the ocean, like, "What's happening?
1:07
Are we really protecting it?
1:08
What about climate?
1:09
I've got anxiety around that," this is the place where we provide you with
1:12
the knowledge of what's happening in the world to help bring and reduce
1:16
those, issues that we face, uh, down, and hopefully give you a little
1:20
bit more of an optimistic view.
1:21
And plus, it gives you the information to share with your family and friends to talk
1:25
about it more, because that's what people have found that is nice to do, uh, is
1:29
they, feel better if they talk more about what's happening in the ocean, and some
1:32
of the, good new stuff that's happening.
1:34
So we have some good news in this one, as well as some challenges
1:37
that we're still facing.
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But hopefully one day we will be able to face those, especially
1:41
when it comes to microplastics.
1:43
Here is the interview with Judith Weis, who's actually my
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first interview on this podcast.
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Some 2,000 episodes earlier, she was my first, uh, episode.
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and, uh, it's always great to have her back.
1:53
This is her fourth time back on the podcast.
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Always a delight.
1:57
Enjoy the interview, and we'll talk to you after.
1:59
Hey, Judith.
2:00
Welcome back to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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Are you ready to talk about marine pollution?
2:06
Absolutely.
2:08
Anytime.
2:09
Oh.
2:09
All right.
2:10
Look, this is a very special interview 'cause, Judith, you've been on, we were
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looking at it before, you've been on three times, but you were my first episode ever.
2:18
You were my first interview, my first episode.
2:21
This is over 2,000 episodes later.
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Wow.
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Uh, here you are again for your fourth time on the show.
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I'm delighted to have you back on.
2:30
And actually, what's kind of interesting too is that our first episode, we
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talked about the first edition of your book called Marine Pollution,
2:37
and today we're gonna be talking about the second edition of your book
2:41
called Marine Pollution, and we're gonna talk all just different things.
2:44
But before we do, uh, Judith, why don't you just remind the viewers and the
2:48
listeners who you are and what you do?
2:51
Okay.
2:51
Well, I'm a retired, professor from Rutgers, uh, marine biology.
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I taught marine biology and environmental biology and
3:02
stuff, undergrads and graduates.
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and, uh, as a professor I wrote lots of scholarly papers, published
3:12
in scholarly journals, and I wrote a few technical books.
3:19
But I've also, got interested in writing books for the general public, which
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is a very different type of writing.
3:30
And I learned that by collaborating with someone who was a writer
3:37
on my first book for the general public about, salt marshes.
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And so I had a co-author.
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Uh, and then after that book, I sort of felt, more comfortable on my own
3:51
writing books, for the general public, and I followed that up with a book about
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fishes, and then a book about crabs, and then a book about marine pollution.
4:05
And the first marine pollution book came out about a decade ago,
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and as Andrew said, uh, I was on this program talking about it.
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Then, couple years ago, uh, the editor at Oxford University Press contacted
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me and said, "How about a second edition updating the book?" I thought
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about that for a while and decided, yeah, I'll do a second edition.
4:36
So that's what we have now, is the second edition, uh, that has
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all the chapters are updated.
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There's a whole new chapter in here about microplastics.
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there may be some other totally different stuff too.
4:54
but the main thing is, uh, a new, chapter on microplastics, and all
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the other chapters are updated.
5:02
That's amazing.
5:03
Uh, now, you know, obviously marine pollution happens on and off.
5:08
You know, we see it show up in a variety of different ways.
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Can we just sort of remind the listeners, for those who weren't
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there for the first episode, you know, what are some of the major, marine
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pollution topics that you cover?
5:20
Uh, you kinda mentioned a little bit there, but that you cover in,
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in, in both books, that, you know- Sure … one has been updated.
5:26
Yes.
5:27
the way the book is organized, there's a chapter about for
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each major kind of pollution.
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So, nutrient pollution, that is sewage, fertilizer runoff.
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This is stimulating algal blooms, which can be harmful, which can
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cause deoxygenation of the water.
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Mm-hmm.
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So the first substantive chapter is about nutrient pollution.
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And, uh, within each chapter Talk about where does it come from, what does
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it do, and what can we do about it?
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So that theme- Yeah … runs through all the chapters.
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and so that nutrients is the first one.
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second is, uh, metals, mercury, cadmium, lead and so forth.
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Again, what are the sources?
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in this case it's mostly industry.
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and, we have some, you know, major sites with metal pollution.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then the next chapter is oil.
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We know about oil spills.
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We haven't had any in quite a while.
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Knock
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on wood.
6:47
Knock on wood.
6:48
Yes.
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that's not just good luck.
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that's not just accidental.
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I mean, the effects of oil pollution and there's an oil spill from a ship, and it
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comes ashore and it hits the shoreline and causes this huge amount of damage and
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gets a lot of publicity- Mm-hmm … and a lot of money trying to clean it up.
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they have cleaned up their act a lot and the ships now have double hulls.
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the tankers.
7:19
Mm-hmm.
7:20
And so there's a whole lot done so that we haven't had an oil
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spill in over a decade I think.
7:27
Right.
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Yeah.
7:29
Uh, so that's oil.
7:32
And then there's pesticides and other organic chemicals.
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That's still with us.
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We still have pesticides being sprayed not only in agricultural
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regions but, people's gardens-
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Mm-hmm
7:48
uh, and their lawns and so forth.
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There's still pesticide spraying.
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And then it rains and that runs off into local creeks and
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streams which then go down.
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And these tend to be chemicals that don't break down very readily.
8:07
Mm-hmm.
8:07
The kinds of pesticides that are mostly used now are, do break
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down within let's say weeks.
8:18
Yeah.
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As opposed to the earlier generation of pesticides like DDT, which
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still is infamous in history.
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Yeah.
8:28
And its related chemicals that just didn't break down and continued to
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poison things- Yeah … forever.
8:36
Known as the forever chemicals, right?
8:38
For, well, there are other forever chemicals that aren't pesticides.
8:43
Gotcha.
8:43
Yeah.
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Uh, but they're still around.
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And then, marine debris.
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Trash, garbage, litter.
8:50
Mm-hmm.
8:51
you go on a shoreline, you'll find, oh, hopefully you won't find any, but- Yeah.
8:57
Many cases- But unfortunately … you will find marine- Especially
9:00
after, like, a storm or something, right?
9:03
Yes.
9:03
That's when you
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really find
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it.
9:03
Stuff washes, Yeah … up on the shore.
9:05
But there are also places where a lot of the currents will take, and they
9:11
have these floating garbage patches in some places because the currents sort
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of move a lot- Mm-hmm … of this float.
9:20
It's mostly plastic, really, floating stuff.
9:25
Plastic is a major, major problem.
9:28
a lot of the other problems are being reduced, but the plastic
9:35
issue has not been dealt with.
9:39
they keep making more, and it never goes away.
9:44
And it moves around, from one place to another and accumulates where
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the currents take it and onshore.
9:52
And, um, they talk about chemical recycling of plastic,
9:59
which, I don't buy that.
10:02
they're trying.
10:04
Yeah.
10:04
And they also try to recycle, and that is extremely difficult to recycle it.
10:11
Plastic isn't a single thing.
10:14
Mm-hmm.
10:14
Polypropylene, polyethylene, polystyrene, poly this and that.
10:18
So there's very many different chemicals that could be, all
10:24
of which can be plastic, and they come in different colors.
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And you can't recycle red ones with green ones with yellow ones.
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So you have to have a separate recycling thing for polyethylene that's red and
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polyethylene that's blue, et cetera.
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So recycling just doesn't work.
10:47
They have been trying what they call chemical recycling- Mm-hmm … where
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they melt it down and that is releasing lots of toxic chemicals.
10:57
So, uh, I would consider plastic currently the number one villain
11:04
Yeah
11:05
… in the story that has not been, dealt with really.
11:10
I know plastic's been around for a while, but the real manufacturing
11:14
of plastics, like there's been an, increase over a number of decades.
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is it just the political power that these companies have, and
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that's why it hasn't been dealt?
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'Cause like, I mean, when we had chemicals as a problem, back in the '70s and
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'80s and, and so forth, that took a few decades to kinda clean up and get with
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the program before we really knew what the damage was and we were able to fix this.
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and others as well, other types of, pollution that you've mentioned as well,
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where we've been able to, like oil, like you said, they have the double hulls.
11:43
There've been more regulations, and there have been more
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protections based off of that.
11:47
what do you think it is with plastics that we haven't seen movement
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even though we've seen it for probably about five or six decades?
11:57
Oh,
11:58
yes.
11:59
I mean,
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more than that.
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Yeah.
11:59
About 1950-
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And even the increase over that time
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… plastics sort of came in around 1950s.
12:05
Mm-hmm.
12:05
And have been increasing.
12:07
The increased manufacture and the inability to recycle, just makes
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the problem continue to get worse.
12:18
Yeah.
12:19
and the problem being the various different chemical natures that can't
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be recycled together and the different colors that can't be recycled together.
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You'd have to have, a few dozen recycling- Yeah … streams- It's expensive.
12:36
Yeah … to try to do this.
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and the companies are not receptive, not trying to
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cooperate, in denial and so forth.
12:48
Yeah.
12:49
it's interesting 'cause like in Canada, over the last few
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years we've banned specific,
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Types
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single-use plastics, right?
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So we've, you know, cutlery, checkout bags-
12:59
Right
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food service, so expanded, polystyrene, extruded polystyrene, polyvinyl chloride,
13:06
carbon black, oxo-degradable plastics.
13:09
Hmm.
13:10
clamshell containers, lidded, containers, you know, boxes-
13:14
Yeah, lots of those have been banned in the States also.
13:18
Yeah.
13:19
Um,
13:19
but then another problem with the plastics is they break down into
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these microscopic microplastics.
13:28
Yes.
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which, you know, are defined as five millimeters-
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Mm-hmm
13:34
… or less.
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And the ones that are one to five millimeters are visible, but the
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vast majority of them are invisible.
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You're not seeing them.
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But they're all over the place, everywhere.
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and they are in our food, they're in our bodies, they're everywhere.
13:55
And, in addition to the plastic molecule, they contain toxic chemicals
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that are associated with them.
14:03
Mm-hmm.
14:04
And they are ubiquitous.
14:07
I mean, if you look for them anywhere, you will find them.
14:11
Mm-hmm.
14:12
Including in people's brains, hearts- Yeah … livers, et cetera.
14:17
Uh, and everything you eat, and the air you breathe, et cetera.
14:23
and, you know, there's a lot of study going on to, uh, try
14:30
to find out their effects.
14:32
Mm-hmm.
14:32
And some problems with the research is to get controls.
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You know, you do a scientific- 'Cause they're so,
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they're everywhere, so it's hard to get the reference.
14:42
Yeah.
14:43
How do you find the control?
14:45
Yeah.
14:45
When, you know?
14:46
So they have these ultra clean rooms in some laboratories
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trying to do the research.
14:52
Yeah.
14:53
But they're in
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the air.
14:54
Yeah.
14:55
They're gonna settle onto everything.
14:57
So it makes the research very tricky to, uh, find some
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a place where there aren't microplastics to compare, you know- Yeah … response
15:10
of an animal or plant or whatever you're looking at, and have a control.
15:15
Yeah.
15:16
I mean, you could have a control that has maybe less And a
15:20
higher amount- Right … in the-
15:21
Right
15:22
… experimental
15:23
Like a minimal, yeah.
15:23
But, it's difficult.
15:25
it's really difficult.
15:26
And they're still working on developing proper lab procedures and
15:33
techniques to do, kind of experimental studies properly in scientific labs.
15:41
Yeah.
15:41
Um-
15:41
Well, a- and it's interesting too, 'cause a lot of these, as you mentioned, like,
15:44
these, not only these microplastics cause a lot of problems, like physical
15:48
problems, but as they break down, they break down into chemicals,
15:52
and they start to leach out- Right
15:54
these, these chemicals that have- They have
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chemicals.
15:56
the microplastics not only have chemicals in them, chemicals from
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the surrounding air or water- Bind to it … will glom onto them.
16:08
So you have chemicals on them and another set of chemicals in them.
16:14
so it's a very complicated business.
16:16
Yeah.
16:17
Well, and I think what happens is that affects our systems, like when
16:20
it gets into us, when it gets into- Ah … the environment, those leach out.
16:23
Yes.
16:23
Those bind to something else.
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They'll bind to parts of our bodies, organs- Sure … things like that.
16:28
And over time, as that accumulates, we get the bioaccumulation that we see
16:32
that happens in along the food web.
16:34
Right.
16:34
I
16:34
mean, this- You know?
16:36
… this is, you know, the, the new chapter in this issh- you know, edition of the
16:42
book because back, a dozen years ago when the first edition came out, microplastics
16:51
were just beginning to get studied.
16:54
And- Yeah … you know, the knowledge was just beginning.
16:58
And now, it's, a huge area of study, and there's, huge numbers
17:05
of papers coming out every week-
17:07
Mm-hmm
17:08
about microplastics.
17:10
I don't know how long I should spend on plastic.
17:13
Well, I
17:14
mean, I think it's, I think it's important too, because like we're
17:16
not seeing a stoppage in the use.
17:18
We're not seeing a stoppage in you know, getting these out into the marine
17:21
system, let alone into the air- Or
17:23
anywhere else
17:24
or anywhere else, you know?
17:25
Or anywhere else.
17:26
It's just- Yeah … you know, there's no regulations to
17:31
reduce manufacture or whatever.
17:35
Yeah.
17:37
But the, policymakers know of these types of, problems.
17:40
So in your opinion, like, what's the holdup in terms of putting
17:44
these regulations in place?
17:46
what is the argument against putting these regulations in place?
17:49
I'm not sure, what a valid argument against it would be.
17:54
Right.
17:55
But the fact that something is ubiquitous-
17:58
Mm-hmm
17:59
probably makes it difficult to try to regulate something That's in
18:06
everywhere in the air, everywhere in the water, everywhere in the body.
18:10
Mm-hmm.
18:10
How do you say there's a limit and then how do you enforce that?
18:16
But I mean, if it's everywhere and we know where it starts from by the
18:19
manufacturing of these, is it not better to start, like, putting in
18:24
these types of bans or reductions or
18:26
quotas?
18:26
You could put in
18:27
reductions, but, uh, the industry's not gonna tolerate it.
18:32
Have they done that in Canada?
18:34
Not that I know of, no.
18:35
The only thing I've seen was this
18:36
ban.
18:37
Have they done that anywhere?
18:38
I don't think so.
18:39
Not that I know of.
18:40
I think we're moving towards that.
18:41
in Canada, from the federal government perspective, they've consider- they
18:46
put it in the, Canadian Environmental Qualities Act, that plastic is toxic.
18:54
All plastic is toxic.
18:55
Right.
18:56
and from that, they came up with this first bill where these,
19:00
what I mentioned was, these single-use plastics were banned.
19:03
and then what they're doing is they're looking at a registry, creating a
19:06
registry of who creates what plastic and tracking where that plastic ends up.
19:12
and so, like, the supply chain of after, not only during manufacturing, but
19:16
after purchase by, you know, retailers and so forth who use them and then the
19:21
consumers, and then where those end up.
19:23
rumor has it that they're gonna start putting the companies responsible
19:26
in the cleanup, 'cause obviously the recycling's not working.
19:29
Well, I- But
19:29
that,
19:29
that's a long ways away, I think.
19:31
I
19:31
hope that happens.
19:33
Um- Yeah
19:33
… nothing's gonna happen in this country.
19:36
Right.
19:36
Not anytime soon anyway.
19:37
Our
19:37
current administration- No … nothing is gonna happen.
19:41
Yeah.
19:42
I mean,
19:42
of course- Well, I mean, what was interesting though is the chemical
19:44
companies that create this and the fossil fuel companies did try to fight
19:48
the label that all plastic is toxic.
19:51
Uh, and they, overturned, or they appealed and they won their appeal,
19:56
against the government, and then, the, uh, environmental, like the NGOs that
20:01
first brought it to the government, uh, and supported the bill, appealed that
20:06
decision and the appeal got overturned.
20:08
So it's back in.
20:09
It never stopped being in, but it's back in.
20:11
And, and you see it, it's reduced in terms of these six plastics, but
20:14
there's still a lot to go, as you mentioned, because it's everywhere.
20:17
You hope that eventually we come up with another material
20:20
that will not be as, as, uh-
20:23
Yeah.
20:23
And you know, we hope- … as toxic
20:24
we'll have an administration sometime in this country that will-
20:29
Yeah
20:29
… enforce the environmental legislation.
20:33
You know, how do you deal with, you know- pollution in the Great Lakes, you know?
20:38
Yeah.
20:39
You've got good regs in Canada, and we have pollution coming out on our side, so.
20:44
Yeah.
20:45
Yeah.
20:46
I mean, it's always interesting, especially when we look at, like,
20:48
these binational agreements when one country… I mean, I, right now, as
20:51
we're recording this, I think, uh, one of the countries is looking at renaming a
20:55
Great Lake to just to kind of- Yes, they
20:57
wanted to change the name of, uh, Trump wants to rename Ontario something, uh-
21:01
Great Lake, uh, to Great, to Great America or Lake America, I think it is.
21:05
Yes.
21:05
So I think there's some- And there's so- … different battles being done here
21:08
than, than regular pollution, uh, battles
21:11
So appalling, everything- Mm-hmm … that comes out from that administration.
21:16
And, uh,
21:16
so- Now, so if people, I guess the, the question I have here, uh, before I, 'cause
21:20
I wanna move on to, uh, another topic in the book with the chemicals and, some
21:24
positive stuff that comes out of there.
21:25
But with the, microplastics, there are a lot of organizations that are working
21:30
to, you know, help reduce the amount, ban it from getting, like, and just
21:35
basically reducing it from getting out into the ocean, getting out into the
21:38
atmosphere and these kinds of things.
21:40
some people feel a little helpless when they learn about these things.
21:43
And then, uh, obviously this is a complicated issue.
21:46
people are profiting off of it and it's everywhere.
21:49
Like, how do you think, like, people who are listening to this podcast can
21:53
get information or follow somebody who's trying to do stuff or support
21:58
organizations who are trying to help in this situation so that they can kinda tame
22:05
down their plastic anxiety, if you will?
22:07
just like climate anxiety and ocean anxiety.
22:08
I'm not
22:09
sure if, you know, can reduce the anxiety, but, beach cleanups.
22:15
There's a lot of organizations that do beach cleanups.
22:19
And I think participating in a beach cleanup, you know, it's mostly
22:23
plastic that- Right … you're picking up off the beaches, um, can
22:28
make you feel better about things.
22:30
Mm-hmm.
22:31
You
22:31
know, you're doing something good for the environment.
22:34
And by helping in a beach cleanup, I think you can, uh, reduce your own personal
22:39
use of plastics whenever possible.
22:43
Although, sometimes you can buy juice in a glass-
22:47
Yeah
22:47
… rather than a plastic container.
22:50
Yeah.
22:51
You know, you can do personal in terms of your shopping what you're doing
22:56
Yeah
22:57
Of
22:58
What about organizations?
22:59
Are there any organizations they can follow or support
23:02
that are working towards- Well,
23:02
I, I think the, you know, the big, uh, national, environmental groups,
23:07
Sierra Club, for example, is an, environmental organization that has
23:12
a lot of individual members active.
23:17
Mm-hmm
23:17
Unlike EDF or NRDC, which is run by the staff.
23:23
Individual members pay dues but don't really get opportunity to work on stuff.
23:29
But Sierra Club and Audubon are ones where there are local
23:33
chapters and members can do stuff.
23:37
Gotcha
23:38
but there are then other smaller organizations that will sponsor beach
23:45
cleanups and- Mm-hmm … things like that.
23:47
Uh- And it's, and, and I should mention too that, one of the things that I
23:50
was discussing on a call with, Chad Nelsen, who's the Surfrider CEO, is
23:55
sometimes when you go to do these beach cleanups, you get to meet other people
24:00
who are out there to do the same thing.
24:02
Right And so you, come for, to help clean up the ocean, but you
24:04
stay for the community, which I think a lot of people are-
24:07
Yes
24:07
… missing.
24:08
You know, in-person events where you can meet people face-to-face.
24:12
Yeah You can, bond over your love for the coastline, the oceans, uh,
24:17
and stay in the positive effects.
24:18
Maybe not in the comments section of a post that's an environmental post which
24:22
you don't wanna be in sometimes, and more into, like, hanging around with the
24:26
people who have the same values of the ocean- Yes … of the, of nature- This is
24:31
all good … right?
24:33
Yeah.
24:33
Yeah.
24:33
This is all good I think that helps.
24:33
Yeah.
24:33
Now, one thing I wanted to kinda bring up.
24:35
Uh, you're a resident of, New York City.
24:37
and we've seen a lot of progress in the water quality in New York City
24:41
Harbor over the last number of decades.
24:44
New York Harbor,
24:44
yes.
24:45
Yeah.
24:45
Now, can you just talk about the history of the harbor in terms of the chemical
24:50
pollution that we saw, the loss of animals you know, that would disappear, and then
24:55
sort of the what's happened since then, and you know, what led to those animals
25:00
coming back and seeing a cleanup of that?
25:02
Sure.
25:03
I mean, when I was a kid, I also lived in Manhattan, and, close to the Hudson River,
25:11
and nobody would wanna go down there.
25:14
Mm-hmm.
25:14
I mean, it was a smelly, awful place.
25:17
There was raw sewage going in.
25:20
That's why- Mm-hmm … it was a smelly, awful place, because it was raw
25:23
sewage, and this was the Hudson River and New York Harbor, the whole thing.
25:29
Then in 1970-ish, uh, Congress passed the Clean Water Act, and one of the
25:37
things from the Clean Water Act required building sewage treatment plants.
25:43
And there had been no sewage treatment plants for the whole
25:47
upper west part of Manhattan.
25:50
So what went in the toilet went right into the Hudson River.
25:56
That's how it was- Like raw sewage,
25:57
basically
25:58
… raw sewage went right into the Hudson River, into New York Harbor,
26:01
and that's why nothing lived there.
26:03
Mm-hmm.
26:04
So then they built a sewage plant on the upper, West Side, 150- Do you know when
26:12
that was?
26:14
in- Like
26:15
' 70s,
26:16
' after the '70s.
26:17
It took a while to get the funds together to build it.
26:20
It was probably in the '80s.
26:22
Gotcha
26:23
… and now the sewage from the whole West Side of Manhattan goes
26:29
there and gets treated before going into the Hudson River.
26:34
And gradually, the river that nobody wanted to go near, - the, the
26:42
riverfront was industrial anyway.
26:45
Um, as the water quality improved, they then built a walkway.
26:51
You can walk along the river now, 'cause it's not smelly.
26:55
It's nice.
26:56
You know?
26:57
You wouldn't wanna walk, you wouldn't have wanted- Who would?
26:59
Yeah, why would you want to?
27:00
You wouldn't have wanted to walk along it in, back then.
27:04
Yeah.
27:04
And so there's, a walkway, through the whole West Side of Manhattan
27:09
from the Battery all the way up.
27:11
I think you may be able to even walk all the way around Manhattan on the
27:15
East River and the Harlem River.
27:17
I'm not sure they all- Yes … connect, but they might.
27:19
Yeah.
27:20
If you had a long day, you could perhaps- … walk all the way around
27:25
the perimeter of Manhattan Island.
27:27
Mm-hmm.
27:28
But anyway, so over time, the smelly, stinky river and harbor got better.
27:36
Yeah.
27:37
Now we have sewage treatment, it got better, and the water quality… I
27:42
mean, if it rains a lot and you get this combined sewer overflow, not so good.
27:48
Mm-hmm.
27:48
But you get moderate rain, you get a drought, the water quality is swimmable.
27:56
Yeah.
27:57
Yeah.
27:57
And they have not built any access, you know, ladders and things to make a beach
28:07
or whatever for people to swim in yet.
28:10
I predict that will count, that, that will come in the future.
28:16
Like in Chicago, there's high buildings, there's a drive,
28:21
and there's Lake Michigan.
28:23
Mm-hmm.
28:24
And it's downtown Chicago, which is, big city too.
28:28
Huge city, yeah.
28:28
Yeah.
28:28
and, people go swimming.
28:30
In the downtown.
28:31
Yeah.
28:31
Downtown on Lake Michigan.
28:34
Mm-hmm.
28:35
Which was a big shock to me when I first went to Chicago.
28:38
I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
28:41
Driving along the waterfront-
28:43
Yeah … and
28:44
there's tall buildings on one side, and there's a beach, and there's
28:47
people swimming on the other side.
28:49
Yeah.
28:49
Yeah.
28:49
It
28:50
was wonderful.
28:51
I've c- I mean, it's a shock
28:52
we have a lot of people, you know, from the Toronto area, from the
28:54
area that I live in, that will go to Chicago, visit, 'cause it's a quick
28:58
flight, just like it is to New York.
28:59
Um, and they are always amazed.
29:01
the downtown looks so beautiful.
29:03
Like, in, Toronto, uh, we don't necessarily have the same water quality.
29:08
You know, I don't know, like, there are some places where you
29:09
can go swimming, but you know, we have our, water quality problems.
29:13
I haven't been to Chicago yet, uh, but it apparently it's like
29:16
it's night and day when you go.
29:17
It's wonderful.
29:18
Yeah.
29:19
Yeah.
29:19
Uh, and New York will be there one day.
29:21
Yep.
29:21
Yep.
29:22
I really think New York will be there.
29:24
Um, we're not there yet, but we're not what it used to be.
29:29
Well, it's, it's, changed so much that you saw the menhaden start to come back.
29:32
We saw-
29:33
The menhaden, the whales are back … the
29:34
whales are back.
29:35
You
29:35
can go whale watching-
29:37
Yeah
29:37
… from Brooklyn.
29:38
Yeah.
29:39
And we're gonna do that next month.
29:40
That's awesome.
29:41
there's a whale watch company in Brooklyn.
29:44
Yeah, Gotham Whale.
29:45
Is it?
29:45
Is that- Gotham
29:46
Whale.
29:46
Gotham Whale, yeah.
29:47
And, we have a date to go out.
29:50
We did that last year also.
29:53
Fantastic.
29:53
And you go out into New York Harbor, and there's humpbacks
29:59
and sometimes fin whales and s-
30:02
Yeah
30:03
sometimes dolphins.
30:04
Mostly humpbacks, though.
30:06
Yeah.
30:06
Well, it's beautiful to see those humpbacks- Oh, and so- … especially
30:09
back in that area, right?
30:10
It's such a delight.
30:12
A very satisfying, fun thing to do.
30:15
Well, and I, and I think, that's kinda what I, what I want people to feel is
30:18
that when there are multiple actions taken, you know, once we discover
30:24
that there's a problem and there are not only regulations, but, laws put
30:29
in place to say, "Hey, you know, we need to control this so that we have
30:33
better health in our area, better water quality." it's an important
30:37
part, especially with the New York Harbor, it's such an important harbor.
30:41
But in places all over the, the world, not just the US but Canada, Mexico,
30:46
other continents, other places, when you put action in place, it works.
30:50
Like, when you put policies in place, it works.
30:52
And it's just a matter of looking at what scientists like yourself, Judith, and
30:56
your colleagues from the past and even now are saying and are identifying it.
31:01
to get these lawmakers to understand and to say, "Hey, there's a problem."
31:07
So if we kinda compare and contrast the work that's been done in the New York
31:11
Harbor, which is a lot of people, a lot of powerful people that live there, a
31:15
lot of, companies that were on that, uh, industrial companies that were on
31:18
that, that harbor, that were working along, that had buildings along there.
31:22
what could we learn from that like that situation, that cleanup, that
31:27
we can apply to, say, something like microplastics in the future?
31:30
I don't know you can apply those lessons to microplastics
31:35
because this had clear sources-
31:38
Mm-hmm
31:39
… that could be regulated sewage treatment plants.
31:42
Mm-hmm.
31:43
Or the absence of sewage treatment plants.
31:45
Yeah.
31:46
Yeah, yeah.
31:47
Remedy it by putting in a sewage treatment.
31:49
Microplastics are… I don't think there's any lesson that you can do,
31:54
from that to apply to microplastics.
31:56
Kinda like comparing apples to oranges in a way?
31:58
Yeah.
31:59
But there's a couple other… I don't know if I can go back to the book contents.
32:03
Sure, absolutely.
32:04
Other things I would like to mention, other kinds of pollutants-
32:09
Yeah, absolutely
32:09
… that we should be concerned about.
32:12
one is pharmaceutical pollution.
32:15
Mm. This is necessary stuff.
32:17
Mm-hmm.
32:18
We have prescriptions or whatever.
32:21
We swallow pills, and we pee out a lot of it, and it goes out into the water.
32:28
It's not-- The sewage treatment plants don't deal with that.
32:32
Mm-hmm.
32:32
And so you have incidences where, the fish and whatever in the water are
32:40
being affected by the pharmaceuticals.
32:43
I mean, there was a- Mm-hmm … there was a paper some years ago
32:47
called Fish on Prozac, right?
32:51
Yeah.
32:51
Tranquilizers and stuff.
32:53
So, you know, affecting their behavior and stuff.
32:56
So that's one thing to worry about.
32:58
Even hormones.
32:59
Like, there were some fish
33:00
that were- Hormones … switching sex- Exactly … like
33:02
throughout
33:02
their life history as they- You get sex alterations.
33:05
Yeah.
33:05
Right?
33:06
From birth control pills and that.
33:07
Yep.
33:08
Yeah.
33:09
Because the sewage treatment plants don't get those- They
33:12
don't catch those compounds
33:14
… kinds of chemicals.
33:14
Yeah.
33:15
And then a-another really serious issue… Two others.
33:20
one is climate change, except in addition to temperature issues, the
33:27
CO2 that dissolves in the ocean- Mm
33:31
turns the ocean more acidic.
33:35
Yeah.
33:35
Changes the pH.
33:37
So you have what's called ocean acidification.
33:40
The pH goes down in the water.
33:45
which it's not turning the ocean really acidic.
33:49
The pH is still on the upper side of seven.
33:54
but it's closer to the seven neutral.
33:57
Which enough to change, enough to change
33:58
the systems.
33:58
It's less basic, less alkaline.
34:01
Mm-hmm.
34:01
So they call it ocean acidification.
34:03
And the main effect of this is impairing shell formation.
34:10
Animals that make calcium carbonate shells have trouble.
34:15
So, juvenile oysters, mussels, clams Are making thinner
34:22
shells, which is problematical.
34:24
Mm-hmm.
34:25
microscopic plankton that are, have shells like forams, they're like
34:31
shelled amoebas in the plankton, also having trouble making shells.
34:38
So that's another chapter devoted to, um, ocean acidification.
34:45
And then I guess the last type of pollution that I discuss in the book
34:52
I call biological pollution, um, otherwise called invasive species.
34:59
An organism ends up where it didn't used to be.
35:04
And this can happen as a result of shipping.
35:09
You know, something hitches a ride on a ship and gets moved
35:15
from, you know, the US to Europe-
35:18
Mm-hmm
35:19
whatever, and moves- Or back and forth.
35:20
Yeah … to a different place.
35:21
So we have a lot of new species in places where they never were before.
35:28
Yeah.
35:28
Examples like zebra mussels in the Great Lakes, which
35:31
have- Zebra mussels in the- … completely
35:32
changed the Great
35:33
Lakes … Great Lakes, you know, a poster child-
35:36
Yeah
35:37
for this.
35:38
Absolutely.
35:38
Uh-
35:39
I learned that when I was in high school.
35:40
I remember-
35:41
Right
35:41
… learning about zebra mussels in the
35:43
' 90s.
35:43
Yeah And there's also this very beautiful but, deadly lionfish.
35:48
The lionfish from the
35:50
American marine aquarium industry.
35:50
Uh, in, in more tropical regions.
35:53
Mm-hmm.
35:53
which just eats up everything because nobody recognizes it as a predator.
35:59
Right.
35:59
And so that, we were in one of the Caribbean islands some
36:05
years ago snorkeling, and the density of the lionfish-
36:09
Everywhere … were unbelievable.
36:11
Yeah.
36:12
Um, these aren't generally referred to as pollution, but I think…
36:17
I have a chapter about it and I call it biological pollution.
36:21
Well, I, agree with you in, in that.
36:22
I remember the first one you kinda talked about in the first book, right?
36:25
The biological
36:25
pollution.
36:26
Yes, I think it was in the first book, too.
36:27
Yeah.
36:28
and, uh, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
36:30
It is a biological pollutant, something that doesn't belong
36:33
there that, that's there now.
36:34
Um-
36:35
Yeah
36:35
and there's different means of getting to these types of
36:37
pollutants that changes the system.
36:39
You know, if you look at chemicals, they change the system.
36:41
Microplastics, they change the system.
36:44
you look at invasive species, they're gonna change the system.
36:47
That's what makes them so successful.
36:48
Right.
36:48
And they can have, like, serious repercussions, not only to the
36:51
health of the ecosystem, but to our health and our economy.
36:54
Um-
36:54
Yeah.
36:55
Well-
36:55
… absolutely.
36:56
I mean, and, the invasive species, unlike the chemicals, the animal,
37:01
invasive either animals or algae or plants or whatever, reproduce and become
37:08
Yeah
37:08
more.
37:09
Yeah.
37:10
Yeah.
37:11
Um-
37:11
Absolutely
37:12
… whereas a chemical pollution only becomes more when more is released into the water.
37:18
Mm-hmm.
37:18
Toxic chemical doesn't reproduce, but, these animals
37:23
and plants in the wrong place do.
37:25
Yep.
37:26
So.
37:27
Yep.
37:27
Yeah.
37:28
No, I completely agree.
37:29
Well, I'll tell you, it's, it's a, it's a fantastic book.
37:32
and I highly recommend that people do it.
37:33
We'll put a link where people can buy the first and the second edition,
37:36
'cause I think they're both- I,
37:37
I hope nobody buys the first- … worthwhile … edition.
37:39
You want them to buy the second?
37:40
Or- All right.
37:40
'Cause the be- the second one's more updated.
37:40
Oh, yeah.
37:40
So buy the second edition at this point.
37:40
Yeah.
37:40
No, no point in the second.
37:45
No point in buying the second.
37:47
but I hope people buy the s- I mean, no point in buying the
37:50
first
37:51
one.
37:52
Buy the first.
37:52
I hope people buy- Buy the second … buy the second.
37:52
I don't think they're, making- Missing it … any more copies.
37:56
Right.
37:56
Uh- Yeah
37:57
… you can probably get the first, you know, really cheap secondhand, but-
38:02
Gotcha
38:03
pay a little more and get the second.
38:05
Yeah, get the updated version.
38:06
Yeah.
38:07
Absolutely.
38:07
it's more worthwhile anyway.
38:08
We'll put a link to the second one then so people can, uh, get access to that.
38:12
Judith, it's always a pleasure to have you on.
38:15
You are a wealth of knowledge.
38:17
Uh, and I love your passion towards this, of getting information out to the public
38:21
because we definitely all need it, right?
38:23
I think there's a lack of what's been happening and just not knowing
38:26
what, you know, the different types of pollutants that we've seen and
38:29
their effects on not only humans, but, uh, even on the ecosystem as well.
38:33
So I appreciate you coming out here and, sharing that with us.
38:36
And of course, you're always welcome to come back and talk more.
38:38
I think we have a crab book I think we discussed before for you to come
38:41
back, and we'll talk all about crabs, just like we did salt marshes, uh- I,
38:44
I, I'm always- … back in the day … delighted to talk with you, Andrew.
38:48
Wonderful.
38:48
Thank you so much.
38:50
Okay.
38:51
Thank you, Judith, for joining us on today's episode of the How
38:54
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
38:56
Look, I said there's good news and bad news in this.
38:58
We face some challenges with microplastics.
39:00
And you know, in my opinion, I feel like you have to go after the
39:03
makers, you have to go after the people who are creating it, and you
39:06
have to say, "Hey, enough is enough.
39:07
We need to start putting better stuff in our plastics if that's gonna be
39:09
the case or making it in a better way.
39:11
But also, we need to reduce the amount of plastics that we use, and we need
39:14
to shift away from that." I don't care if businesses depend on it.
39:17
We need to shift away from it.
39:18
It's better for the environment, it's better for us.
39:20
As you heard Judith say, it's in our systems, it's in our bodies,
39:23
it's in our lungs, uh, it's in our water, it's in, our air.
39:26
You cannot get away from microplastics, so much so that it's hard to find
39:30
a control when they do experiments on the effects of microplastics.
39:34
So we definitely need to reduce that.
39:36
How that's done, I don't know.
39:37
But I would love to hear your ideas.
39:40
Just let me know, uh, either hit me up on my socials, which the links
39:43
are in the show notes, or you-- if you're on Spotify, you can comment.
39:46
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
39:48
Uh, and obviously, don't forget to get the book.
39:50
If you're interested in finding out more about marine pollution,
39:53
you can get the second edition of Marine Pollution by Judith Weis.
39:56
all you have to do is just click that link in the show notes,
39:57
it'll take you right there.
39:59
And uh, yeah, I'd love to hear your opinion on the show just in general.
40:02
But anyway, I wanna thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of
40:06
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
40:07
I am your host, Andrew Lewin.
40:08
Have a great day.
40:09
We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.