Latest / Rethink Revive with David Leake / Why Did God Kill Ananias and Sapphira?

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Why Did God Kill Ananias and Sapphira? · Rethink Revive with David Leake

• 0:00
  Dave Leake: Hi, everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast where we have culture creating conversations.
• 0:06
  Dave Leake: I'm one of your hosts. My name is Dave.
• 0:08
  Jeff Leake: My name is Jeff. And we're glad you've joined us today. So we are again, both on staff at Allison Park church, Dave's Northside campus pastor, I'm the Lead Pastor, father and son multigenerational conversations that deal with all kinds of issues. And so we have some shout outs this time, Dave, for people who have given us some reviews. Yep,
• 0:26
  Dave Leake: just one but want to give a shout out to Larry 134522. Larry, whatever your last name is glad. Glad to have you on here. And thank you for leaving your five star review.
• 0:36
  Dave Leake: If you're you know, not Larry, but you'd like a shout out. We'd love to give one to you as well.
• 0:40
  Dave Leake: And so all you got to do is go into Apple podcasts, you can actually leave a five star review there at the bottom. And that helps us to sort of spread the words and let people know about us. So that would be huge.
• 0:53
  Dave Leake: But regardless, thank you for joining us today, whoever you are glad to have you join our conversation.
• 0:58
  Jeff Leake: Yep. So what's our topic for today? What culture creating conversation are we going to have today?
• 1:04
  Dave Leake: Today we are going to be I mean, it's kind of a mix of things we're talking about.
• 1:06
  Dave Leake: To this might not be the title, we're talking about church discipline about God's judgment and about conflict between believers. I, I think we've tended to hit a lot of topics that are controversial biblical passages over over time, like Genesis six and Nephilim is one of those. This is maybe not Nephilim level, but it's one of the more odd passages in the New Testament, which is the judgment of Ananias and Sapphira, found in Acts chapter five. So kind of the topic. The topic started with, like, hey, this would be kind of fun to talk through. And then recently, the church world has been blowing up with conflict.
• 1:47
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. Okay, so let's just do the tea's in case some of you are wondering. I know, because we do tend to deal with things that are controversial, political times, theological.
• 1:59
  Jeff Leake: One of the things that happened during the month of April, and 2024, was the events that happened at the James River, stronger men's conference, where there was a conflict between Mark Driscoll, who's a pastor in Arizona, and John Lindell, who's the pastor at James River, and it sort of blew up and it blew up in such a way that it became newsworthy. Like it wasn't just church, people talking about it, it was national news media talking about it, it was people podcasting that weren't Christians at all. But we're curious about what the conflict was about, about a performer who swallows swords. That kicked off the men's conference and then some events that happened as Pastor Mark Driscoll, one of the guest speakers sort of called that out as a Jezebel spirit.
• 2:53
  Dave Leake: Yeah, you can find all that stuff online. Yeah, if you're listening to this podcast, you likely have already found all that stuff online.
• 2:57
  Dave Leake: Yeah,
• 2:59
  Jeff Leake: probably you probably you know about it, like if you're interested in that kind of stuff. But so so we might get there. We might get there. Yes, we probably will. We are teased it now we're teasing it. So I think one of the hesitations that we have in talking about this particular issue, and the reason why we didn't title the podcast after this, is that I'm very hesitant to talk about other pastors situations, teachings or problems without first talking to them. And in some ways, also very hesitant to address other people's business like this isn't my business. It's not my house, not my church. Like to, for us to just have conversations about happenings randomly. I'm not sure how healthy that is. And in fact, part of what we're going to talk about in this podcast is, when there are things like this occur, there's conflict, how should that be handled? I have a friendship with John Lindell.
• 3:46
  Jeff Leake: I've never met Mark Driscoll.
• 3:49
  Jeff Leake: But because because I have that conviction. And because John is my friend, very hesitant to, to go too deeply into that. But because of the stream, we're going to be in any way we may get there. So if you're really interested in that, and you want to know what our take is on it, stay tuned. Yeah, for this particular episode. It's actually
• 4:09
  Dave Leake: interesting, because anodized inspira kind of has nothing to do with anything like that. But at the same time, it
• 4:15
  Jeff Leake: kind of does. It kind of does. It kind of does.
• 4:17
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. So if you don't know and nice and Sapphira, we're in the we're going to be in Acts chapter five. So if you're listening to this, and you get to a Bible, you might want to, you might want to look at this particular passage. Yeah, I want to set this up, right. I actually have a unique way of talking about this particular passage. If you want me to go there,
• 4:34
  Dave Leake: then don't go there yet. Well,
• 4:36
  Jeff Leake: no, it's not the first by verse teaching. It's more of a reaction. I got to this particular passage. Yeah, okay. Okay. So I teach The Book of Acts that are our spark Leadership Academy every year.
• 4:44
  Jeff Leake: And one year in particular, we had a lot of brand brand new believers that were in the ministry school. Some of them had come from addictive pasts, but they were new to Bible reading. And basically everything I was telling them was new. And so I'm going through Acts chapter one through four. And it's all great news like, the Holy Spirit's poured out 3000 people get saved, at least people get baptized, there's healing miracles happening. The Bible says in Acts chapter four, there's no needy persons among them, they were selling their property and laying the money down at the apostles feet, who were then distributing it to meet the needs of the poor. There was a constant sense of awe and wonder people were being healed, there was daily salvations, what a place to live in the birthing of the church. And then we get into Acts chapter five, which tells the story of Anand is, who sold a piece of property. And he and his wife took the profits from it, they kept a portion back for themselves. And they gave a portion to the apostles to feed the poor. But they made it like they were given 100% So it would have been totally their within their right, to sell it for 100 grand, give it to the church and keep 20 But they basically said, we sold it for 80. And we're giving you 80. And they didn't tell about the extra money they held back. And when and and I deposits this gift during the church service, Simon Peter calls them out and how can you lie to the Holy Spirit? Now, the people are going to come and carry you out dead. And and Annihilus drops dead in church, like Okay, so the reaction that I got from the new believers in the A PLA, when we got the acceptor five was I could hear one of the guys cuss out loud, like, like it was sort of like an Oh, crap moment. Like, what, like how, what God struck him dead, like they were both intrigued, shocked, and a bit afraid, when they read that when we read that passage and started to talk about that. And actually, as Luke writes the book of Acts, in his research this, he's presenting it to Theopolis, who is this Greek person that he's writing to? And the narrative all of a sudden comes to a, like a screeching halt in Acts chapter five, because all the good good, good news that are happening for the birth of the church now, we hit this moment where God just throws down on an ice and then the rest of the story is his wife. Sapphira comes in a few minutes later doesn't know that and and ice has been struck dead by God in church for lying about what they mined. And she repeats the lie. And Simon Peter says the men who carried out your husband are coming for you now.
• 7:32
  Jeff Leake: And she drops dead in the in the church service. I mean, that's a wild Schertzer was right there.
• 7:35
  Jeff Leake: If you thought the controversy, James River was a big deal and dropping dead in church. That's massive. Yeah. So it's a little bit of a shocking moment. And it's hard in the context of everything else we read in the book of Acts, which is almost all good news. To understand where this fits in the context of what we can expect from God.
• 7:57
  Jeff Leake: As a part of the church. Yeah.
• 8:00
  Dave Leake: Yeah, that's a good summary of of all of it. I think it's also it's intriguing because it's not just like, something bad. There's a lot of bad that happens in Acts, but it's usually outside at the enemy person.
• 8:11
  Jeff Leake: World persecuting the church, not God striking down now someone who's a professing Christian. Yeah, that's
• 8:19
  Dave Leake: a little crazy.
• 8:19
  Dave Leake: Yeah. Yes. Because, um, you know, there are so there's so many people that God could have judged, like, Okay, God could have easily judged people for sin like, like Paul, you know, who was saw who was murdering Christians. Yeah, God does judge Herod, you know, Herod gets struck down an axe and says worms eat his body. Yeah, he's killed an axe airds, a wicked, Gentile ruler, whose illness sorcerer
• 8:46
  Jeff Leake: and I think Acts chapter 13, or 14. Blindness temporarily, as a sign from God.
• 8:49
  Jeff Leake: But those are all people that you would see as enemies of God.
• 8:54
  Jeff Leake: Well,
• 8:56
  Dave Leake: the sorcerer, interesting thing is he gets saved. But after you Oh, it's after? Yeah, I was gonna say that he turned his first prophet. And that's when they Oh, that's
• 9:04
  Jeff Leake: a different one.
• 9:04
  Jeff Leake: That's X eight and Simon the sorcerer Simon. So Simon gets saved, but he's still got some synchronistic theological views about his witchcraft and how, you know, Holy Spirit works. And Peter has to confront him, but he's not judged. He's just immature. In his faith. I'm not sure if the limus gets saved. He he gets blinded. And the king who, who were the source or worked for he gets saved that doesn't ever tell us? I don't think that but anyway, random moments. Yeah. Shock and awe by gods but
• 9:40
  Dave Leake: other people dead, you would think would have been struck dead based on how, like, it seems like the sin that they committed isn't as big of a deal as other sins that weren't necessarily committed. When you compare it with murder, or things like that. Yeah.
• 9:54
  Jeff Leake: So persecution, like post so so.
• 9:58
  Dave Leake: God still strike people dead. Today, like, why were they judged for that kind of stuff? Yeah, but I be struck dead for my son.
• 10:05
  Jeff Leake: So in this hits this underlying theme that we've mentioned in the past couple episodes, which is as pastors, when should we bring the heat?
• 10:11
  Jeff Leake: And how do we do that without guilt and shame? Well, this particular episode is, when can we expect God to bring the heat?
• 10:18
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. And if he brings the heat in the New Testament era that we're in, is this just random and capricious? Like he just makes up his mind on the spot?
• 10:28
  Jeff Leake: The next time I give an offering or make a faith promise and don't fulfill it? Yeah. Is that put me at risk? I mean, if if I do something sinful willfully?
• 10:36
  Jeff Leake: Am I going to? Am I going to die over it? Like, how does the New Testament approach to grace? And the message of the cross and God's love and acceptance fit with this moment where God throws down on Ananias? and Sapphira? Yeah, and how much should we have a healthy respect and fear for God? Based upon what's recorded for us in chapter five? Well, in another passages, yeah.
• 11:08
  Dave Leake: And that question is a little easier to answer. It feels probably obvious even now, if God so man, I'm not even sure where to start with this one. I mean, I think you recap the story. And this is, I guess, to start, this is a very unusual kind of happenstance. This wasn't a common occurrence.
• 11:28
  Dave Leake: throughout the New Testament where people were sending in church instruct dead.
• 11:32
  Jeff Leake: It would be an interesting church service.
• 11:34
  Jeff Leake: Never forget that one. Yeah.
• 11:36
  Dave Leake: It's confusing to think how you should even feel like what would Jesus want you to feel about that? You know what I mean? Like, I would imagine, it's a sorrowful thing.
• 11:45
  Dave Leake: I don't think anybody is. But like, that's crazy that God did that. So yeah, I guess like, do you. So now, now that you set it up like that? Do you want to talk about maybe why you think this happened before we use their prints? I
• 11:58
  Jeff Leake: do have I do have a contract? I do have a theory.
• 12:00
  Jeff Leake: Why at an x five. This moment happens of judgment. And I think there's a parallel moment in the stories of the Old Testament.
• 12:08
  Jeff Leake: Okay. So in Luke in Leviticus, chapter 10. We have the story of the institution of the worship practices in the tabernacle, Moses is giving instructions as to how what's Moses brother, Aaron, Aaron's Aaron and his sons were supposed to approach the offering of sacrifices on the altar of God. And the idea was, they put the sacrifice on the first time, God sent fire from heaven consumed the sacrifice, and that fire continued to burn. And it was designed to be kept burning by the priests. They were to never let the fire that God sent on the altar go out. Yeah. Okay.
• 12:52
  Jeff Leake: The reason is, because God is the only one that can judge. The fire is always symbol of judgment. God sent the fire only God can bring judgment. That's not our responsibility. That's his. But early on, they let the fire burn out. And they offered their own they lit a match and offer their own fire and two of Aaron's sons, what are those aims? Nay dab in a by who added their own fire, to the fire of judgment. And because of the symbolism of that, because God wanted the messaging to be clear, they were struck down.
• 13:29
  Jeff Leake: And God actually says to Moses, tell Aaron, not even to grief, because this needed to be done to make sure that the worship that we've just established is kept pure. Well,
• 13:40
  Dave Leake: comment on that. I think saying symbolism is a little too light, okay, because it's more like the things that were
• 13:47
  Jeff Leake: disobedient in, in a to the commands of God,
• 13:51
  Dave Leake: but even even acts that are that are some symbolic, were almost like, I don't know how to say this. Like, they were prophetic actions where things happened, because they did it.
• 14:03
  Dave Leake: It wasn't like so it's not just like, whether whether or not I have my wedding ring on right now. Doesn't make me not married. This is actually a symbol. And I guess by putting it on, I'm sending a message.
• 14:12
  Dave Leake: But like, with things that were done, and like the old covenant for priestly rights, like sacrifices is not just a symbol things actually happen and take place because of following the Does that make sense? What I'm saying
• 14:26
  Jeff Leake: was a holy action.
• 14:26
  Jeff Leake: So the putting on your wedding ring everyday was a holy action, right, that you were doing as unto God? Yes. And you refused to do that? It would be it would be a direct intentional disobedience. Yeah. Or if you
• 14:39
  Dave Leake: treated it with disdain, you're it's not casually but yeah, casually.
• 14:41
  Dave Leake: It's not just like, oh, they messed up a symbol, right? It was a really big deal that they would do this. And so the judgment that comes and I think initially, I mean, this is what happens all throughout the early part a history of Israelites they like don't realize how right For they shall be treating God. They don't treat it seriously enough. And often there's judgment that comes from that. Anyway, like
• 15:05
  Jeff Leake: Eli, he was a priest, he and his sons, were disrespecting the worship practices and eventually they all die. Yeah, as a result of it. Okay? So here's the parallel Leviticus when God judges named Evan OBI, who, for offering their own fire instead of, you know, receiving God's fire, it was to purify the process of worship, because it was it was just being instituted. So if it got off track, yeah, early on, that all God had done through the people of Israel, leading them out of Egypt through the promised land, and setting up the tabernacle system. We've all been soured and shallowed. Yeah, because of the compromise. Okay, this is the beginning now of the church, it's, it's the, there isn't like 1000 churches that exist out there in the world.
• 15:50
  Jeff Leake: There's not a million churches that exist out there in the world, there's only one it's in Jerusalem. It's the very first church and if things go sideways with this particular church, it becomes the, the the stump from which the root of everything that exists now, which we know to be the church extends from and so and there was so much momentum in the church's history, up until Acts chapter five, that 1000s are being added constantly. And it was almost like the popular thing to become a Christian. Yeah, because yeah, you know, what is this group of people taking care of each other and selling their homes and serving the poor, loving one another? People were jumping in and then when Anacin nn is and Sapphira drop dead? Yeah, it lets you have X chapter five open. It talks about fear drop dropped on everybody in Jerusalem. Yeah. And no one there, join them. And then it says, I should actually look up the verse. So it says, no wonder join them. But God kept adding to their number it's like, it's like says something opposite.
• 16:51
  Dave Leake: Where it says a great fear, Cecil church, and all who heard about these events, yeah, and keep reading.
• 16:55
  Dave Leake: Then, the 512 apostles, performed many 10s of wonders on people and all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's colonnade. No one else sees me. Excuse me, if no one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more men and women believed in the Lord who were added to their notes. So
• 17:15
  Jeff Leake: it says opposite, no one's joining them. But more and more people were being added to their number.
• 17:19
  Dave Leake: So nobody's joining this group, but more and more belief and what Gods were
• 17:23
  Jeff Leake: added, yeah. Which means that people thought twice about becoming Christians because they knew how serious a commitment was. Yeah. But even with that being the case, more and more people were getting sick. There's actually
• 17:34
  Dave Leake: another Old Testament parallel I think that is in the story of Ananias and Sapphira, which may or may not actually be helpful conversation, but I'll just bring it up because in this commentary that I was reading, they say that the word were here let me pull this up the word that they use for holding it back so he has kept the money for yourself and x five three Peter sedan and is how's it Satanism have filled your heart that you have learned the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money received for the land? The the word there in the Greek is this word knows FICO, which means to basically to rob to keep back to put aside for oneself, misappropriate, center, etc. And it's, I guess, it's a sort of a more unique verb. And
• 18:23
  Jeff Leake: so, the not the same word that's used about the time it might be
• 18:28
  Dave Leake: but it's, well, what they're highlighting is it's the same word they use for akin sin, oak and Joshua, chapter seven, okay, which is where God says when you you know, defeat Jericho, burn everything, like burn everything to the city to the ground, destroy the foundations, don't take any plunder at all for yourself, you know, and one guy takes something that he thinks is very valuable, it's probably about worth a year's wages and hides in dissent because of that God's judgment comes on Israel first, and then eventually comes on akin and all of his family members. And so apparently, Luke is trying to make some parallel here, okay.
• 19:05
  Jeff Leake: So there's a parallel with named Eben and be who, and there's a parallel between and that in in an
• 19:13
  Dave Leake: AMA Aiken Yeah, quickly, just just to clarify, just because I didn't say this that's
• 19:17
  Jeff Leake: what Joshua chapter seven eight Yeah.
• 19:21
  Dave Leake: Joshua chapter seven verse one. So if you want to read more passages you can quickly to clarify so I know the Old Testament is written in Hebrew primarily but the Septuagint which is the Greek version the Old Testament is where that same exact word is used. So Luke is picking the same word and good
• 19:37
  Jeff Leake: that the Bible scholar knowledge to match
• 19:41
  Dave Leake: just from this commentary, Emery okay, but yeah, so there's, there's this parallel that what was to be set apart for Lord as sacred and holy, which is what they're doing when they're devoting this so we're setting aside this whole offering the entirety of it as under God, but they keep some of it for themselves. Yeah, it's like you stolen from God.
• 19:58
  Dave Leake: Okay.
• 19:58
  Jeff Leake: So let me ask you the big question. They've. So if God was concerned about the health and purity of the worship experience, and obedience of the people in the first covenant with the Jewish people, and if God is concerned about the purity of worship and the obedience to God, in the new covenant with the early church, are we in need of a purification moment in the superficial, cultural Christian atmosphere of the United States of America and 2024?
• 20:34
  Dave Leake: Well, I would hope we're not in need of this kind of purification. Well,
• 20:38
  Jeff Leake: I mean, in every one of these circumstances, the thing that marked the moment was a swift judgment, judgment from God that resulted in death, that was a clear message, that this is a result of someone's sin.
• 20:55
  Dave Leake: To be honest with you, like I think there's enough people out there that are, like wanting that kind of judgment, but I'm not sure that that would actually aid the church. But I think
• 21:05
  Jeff Leake: okay, let's just pause for a moment. Explain that. What do you mean? Okay, so some people delight in the judgment of others as a waitress? Oh,
• 21:12
  Dave Leake: my goodness, I don't think that so. So can you imagine the
• 21:16
  Jeff Leake: tweets and posts after the Anand is it's a fireball? Like I told you that church was not, you know, there are dishonest people in that place. Like, they see this is the thing the analyzes virus out there, that wouldn't belong to a church like ours. Like you.
• 21:30
  Jeff Leake: That's when they
• 21:33
  Dave Leake: say things like, they will say things like judgments coming on Peter, yes.
• 21:35
  Dave Leake: Like, out of the fruit of the pastures where this comes, there's hidden things in his life. Right. And that's even like a lot of like, the terms of the charismatic movement with prophetic people. There's a lot of these like prophets of doom out there, that all they prophesied is judgment of the nations and judgment of Yeah.
• 21:53
  Dave Leake: And you know, what one thing that I will say is as a quick,
• 21:56
  Jeff Leake: interesting insight, yeah. In the in the in the era of social media and YouTube clips, you know, the hit pieces on on, just think about all of the New Testament, the hit pieces that would come out the podcasts, that would be
• 22:11
  Dave Leake: Oh, my gosh, it's exhausting to think about, you know, but I think and we really trust Paul
• 22:17
  Jeff Leake: version was a terrorist. I mean, God doesn't work like that. Yeah,
• 22:21
  Dave Leake: well, or then or then the confrontation that Paul has with Peter, later, we're calling him out for not letting Gentile believers like you'd have total division in the church because of that, that actually is an event we should probably talk about later, that serves to unify the church or where there's healing that happens because of confrontation. Confrontation often is a tool of division right now. So I don't know that that that would be the method. I mean, it could there could be a situation where God's judgment would happen, I guess, like that. But I would say one thing that I like just talking about the people that in the prophetic movement are these, like prophets of doom, or it's not just profit, it's all kinds of pastors that are speaking out against the church. So you can
• 22:58
  Jeff Leake: really grow your ministry by being against things and against people.
• 23:03
  Dave Leake: Yes. What I'm going to say is, though, this is really like the only record. So in spite of God's judgment here, which I think we need to give, God has room to decide what he wants to do, because everybody's going to be judged. At some point, he has room, whether we give it or not, whether it's in this life, or the next. I mean, you know, he's gonna do what he's gonna do. Right. But that I mean, the fact of that, like, this is the only example of something like this to this degree happening in the New Covenant, you know, well, we
• 23:32
  Jeff Leake: do have it hinted at a little bit in the description of First Corinthians of the communion celebration. You're right,
• 23:37
  Dave Leake: you're right. But But that's, it's again, it's, it's for something different and for something, you know, but like, there are very few instances of any kind of judgment like this coming on, and the new covenant, which I think is a sign of God's grace, like even though God does have, you know, the right to judge us right in, especially in the New Covenant, you know,
• 23:59
  Jeff Leake: well, because ultimately, the New Covenant says, All judgment from God happened at the cross. Yeah, exactly. Right. So the punishment for sin happened at the cross. This would probably be true even for no nice and Sapphira. My opinion, I'll tell you my personal opinion with this is not written in the Scripture. I don't think in a nice inspire a judge to go to hell. I just think they were taken out of life quicker than they would have otherwise. I think they were people of faith, who made a mistake, that God decided to correct in a very public way. And the consequence was not separation from God forever. It was, you're gonna die sooner than you were scheduled to, or
• 24:37
  Dave Leake: it's possible that they really weren't actually believers who are opposing the church and we're, you know, we're does
• 24:43
  Jeff Leake: it while we're talking. I'm gonna look that up to see if it ever calls them that, but keep on going with your thought day. Yeah,
• 24:49
  Dave Leake: I think um, while you're looking that up. I think the community moment that you're talking about First Corinthians is probably also worth worth describing. Yeah. And then there's clearly judgment that God brings on wicked Notice, or you know, like even like where it says that first about like if somebody's persisting in their wickedness and stubbornness and what repent to hand them over to Satan, so they might be returned to repentance like there is a level that God will use to restore where he allows harsh or bad things into somebody. Yeah,
• 25:17
  Jeff Leake: because back in most cases, in the Antonov sensor fire case, we don't know if there are believers doesn't say, I looked that up. It does appear like a moment of judgment that is very unique in the New Covenant era. We don't really have like you're saying examples of this and other places. Every other, there was some things that Jesus says pretty directly about some false teaching. In Revelation chapter three, that was leading people into sexual immorality, but it wasn't the judgment of death. It was, it was other kinds of things that God was going to do. But in most cases, I think what you were talking about with communion is it's not judgment, it's discipline. What's the difference between judgment and discipline? You want me to say, Yeah, your opinion, what's the difference between
• 26:07
  Dave Leake: judgment is a consequence of, of your sin and an action that comes back? That is a it's not meant to correct it's, it's actually just the consequence that you receive from an evil act? I think discipline which
• 26:21
  Jeff Leake: which we would then say, judgment, was taken by Christ at the cross, because God doesn't, doesn't judge or our sin. Because if we are, if we are under the blood of Jesus Christ, if we're under His covering, Jesus has taken God's judgment for us, so that we are not going to be judged. So for children of God, we are not judged. We're disciplined, right? And discipline is discipline
• 26:48
  Dave Leake: is correction or rebuke from God that can take different forms to lead us back onto the path he wants us on.
• 26:55
  Dave Leake: Yeah. And He disciplines those that he loves and discipline is not something that's meant for evil doers, or bad people or people that are in sin necessarily. It's discipline can happen to somebody who's living pure, but who just has not become like Jesus, and you need to have some discipline to be brought closer. I mean, that's happened many times to me, and probably many times.
• 27:15
  Jeff Leake: I mean, John 15 talks about being pruned so that you can be more fruitful. It's not that you're it's not that you're bad. It's that you have many good things but God is clipping off the good the good to get to the best. Yeah,
• 27:29
  Dave Leake: quickly, just to wrap up the Mennonites inspire thing because I think I forgot to mention this. I was like, Oh, this is an interesting thing to me as well. The parallel that happens right before the story and x five is with Barnabas.
• 27:39
  Dave Leake: Yeah. Where Barnabas is Joseph, a Levite, from Cypress who the apostle is carved called Barnabas, which means that of encouragement, sold the field he owned, and brought the money put into the apostles feet.
• 27:48
  Dave Leake: Immediately after that is the exact same act, but done for bad motives. So Joseph, Joseph Barnabas sells that brings all the money and says all of this is devoted to God. You know, I'm not sure if it's the same Barnabas necessarily we know, the same Barnes the same guy comes in apostle. Yeah. So because he receives probably some recognition for this and look at look at the act of God, you know, the act towards God that Barnabas did as an example of the church, probably to gain some recognition and clout and respect. And and I aspire to do the same thing. But they lie to the Holy Spirit, you know, in front of the congregation to say, look how good we are. But it's, it's a tainted act of almost self worship, giving it to God in a sense, but really keeping some of it for themselves. So it's not that you have to give all the money that you may be honest about it.
• 28:39
  Dave Leake: Yeah. And if you're if you're doing it to look good before men, but you're lying before God, it's a serious thing. I think we can say that regardless, as far as how judgment words,
• 28:48
  Jeff Leake: we could look over the eras of church history and see many, many slimy deeds done in the name of Jesus, where people profited off of things that should never be profited off of, and very few of them if any, were struck down like an ISIS fire, right.
• 29:03
  Dave Leake: So but because your theory is because it's an early formation of the church, God needed to sort of he or he wanted to set the tone,
• 29:11
  Jeff Leake: the say, Look, this, this is not a game, right? And the messing around here you are, yes, the church is an awesome thing that you're a part of. But remember, just remember who I am, I'm holy, and you should never take what you're a part of too lightly, or jump in too casually, because you are messing with the Creator of the universe, who is a holy, righteous God. Yeah. And I think that that message needed to be sent early on, so that the church didn't end up compromised by a lot of people who are just shallowly joining and superficially participating.
• 29:42
  Dave Leake: Yeah. So would you say this example is judgment?
• 29:48
  Dave Leake: Seems to be because they can't turn from it. So it can't really be discipline, okay.
• 29:51
  Jeff Leake: I think it was discipline to the body, okay.
• 29:56
  Jeff Leake: And it was an example to the body that was discipline for the whole church. And and in essence, a fire unfortunately lost their lives as a part of it.
• 30:07
  Dave Leake: Okay, but it could be argued that it was judgment to them. Right we
• 30:11
  Jeff Leake: don't know is whether they were believers or not. If they weren't believers, then ultimately they were already under his judgment.
• 30:15
  Jeff Leake: They're definitely confirmed that right? So let's go through the discipline passage. So every time to take communion, there is the potential for discipline because in First Corinthians chapter 13, it tells us that when we eat and drink in communion was, which is a commemoration of Jesus 100% Absolute sacrifice for our salvation. And when we take this, it says, verse 27, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body, and blood of the Lord, everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat the bread and drink of the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ, eat and drink judgment on themselves, we actually should probably look up that Greek word Dave, when we're 29, at first Corinthians 11, I'll find that word. And then it says that is why many among you are weak and sick. And a number of you have fallen asleep, which is code for dead if died early. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.
• 31:18
  Jeff Leake: Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we're being disciplined so that we might not be finally condemned with the world. So I think it distinguishes there at the end.
• 31:26
  Jeff Leake: The difference between ultimate judgment and discipline Yeah, this out, yeah,
• 31:31
  Dave Leake: do you want another word, by the way, are not a good word for judgment. They're just ergo, it is, crema, is what it's, it's what the Greek word is, judgment, a sentence, a judicial sentence, etc. And there's there's a whole lot of parallels of this all throughout the Old Testament and administrative decree. So, yeah,
• 31:51
  Jeff Leake: so God will decree that there's something that's missing in your life that needs to be corrected. But it isn't the final judgment for sin, it is a moment of God assessing and determining that something is lacking that needs to be dealt with.
• 32:07
  Dave Leake: This tends to be be also references punishment or sentence. So like in in Mark chapter 12, four aces, they devour widows houses, and for a show make lengthy prayers, these men will be punished most severely. That's the same word, their judgment.
• 32:22
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so let me break down the dynamic of this particular moment. This always used to terrify me when I was a kid sitting in church. I knew this because my dad would often read this passage. And we would often during community would read the whole, First Corinthians 11. And okay, okay, give warning, like, this is a serious moment, guys, like, don't do this without recognizing that you're holding in your hand the elements that commemorate Jesus death, burial and resurrection. And so if you are living in sin, willful sin, where you're holding bitterness, and you're going to take communion and say, Thank You, Jesus, you died for me, and I can be forgiven my sins. But I'm not going to repent right now.
• 33:01
  Jeff Leake: Because I don't appreciate your death that much. And I know you forgave me so much, but I'm not going to forgive right now.
• 33:06
  Jeff Leake: Because I don't appreciate it that much. Your willful participation in communion is almost like sticking a finger in the face of God.
• 33:14
  Dave Leake: Should you say that more often in church? That sounds like a good thing to say.
• 33:16
  Dave Leake: Yeah. So.
• 33:18
  Jeff Leake: So I would always think to myself because sometimes as a middle schooler, I had yet given my life to Christ, sitting next to my mom and Church, the communion tray is coming by. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm either gonna take communion. Because I'm not ready to get right with God right now.
• 33:35
  Jeff Leake: Either take communion and get John God's judgment, or I'm gonna let it pass me by my mom's gonna say to me later, why don't you take communion? Did she ever asked you? Oh, sure. He did.
• 33:48
  Jeff Leake: It's like, it's like an accountability moment. Like, are you in Are you not? Yeah. And so, most of the time, I did a quick 90% Repentance prayer.
• 33:55
  Jeff Leake: Took communion avoided the wrath of mom, you know, and avoided the wrath of God. But I actually don't think it was accurate for me to think about whether I take communion or not. I don't think that really mattered in the context of God's discipline in my life, because I was facing the reality whether I took it or not, if I let it pass me by, and I was still willfully in sin.
• 34:24
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, it would be like saying to God, God, I know I'm on the right track wrong track right now. I'm your child. And I am headed in a place that could be destroyed by my attitudes and actions. God has as a loving Heavenly Father gonna say, I have to get in your way now. To prevent you from furthering destroy yourself or others. So God's discipline is never I'm mad at you. I can't believe you.
• 34:53
  Jeff Leake: Who do you think you are? I'm gonna strike you down. I'm gonna smite you with no, it's more like I care so much about Aren't you that I can see your attitude right now. And I can see the direction of your life and I want to interrupt the direction you're going in to bring you back into an intimate relationship with Me, so that we can get this right. Well,
• 35:11
  Dave Leake: Ken, it literally says that almost word for word in verse 32. It says, Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way that's talking about coming under judgment for communion, taking it the wrong way. We were judged this way, by the Lord, we're being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world. Yeah, it's
• 35:25
  Jeff Leake: a rescue tactic.
• 35:25
  Jeff Leake: It's not a it's not a it's not a, you know, fist of punishment.
• 35:29
  Jeff Leake: Right Moment, it's a rescue tactic is to rescue you, from your trajectory. And to get you back on the right path quicker betterness will destroy you, your, your sinfulness will will eat you alive. So well also, it, you know, ignoring those things and and like, though, that could eventually take somebody away from God. Sure. And so it permanently, yeah, permanently.
• 35:52
  Jeff Leake: And so restaurants. Yeah, right.
• 35:56
  Jeff Leake: And the two consequences that are mentioned here of God's discipline, is this why some of you are sick, we can sick, those would be kind of combined, right? And some die prematurely.
• 36:06
  Jeff Leake: Right. Okay. So let's just talk about that. We get sick. I do believe that sometimes. Because we're out from underneath the hedge of God's protection because we're living in sin, or we're living in bitterness or whatever, that we end up in a place dealing with ailments and physical and emotional problems that will not be healed until we repent. Yeah. But the moment we repent, healing is released to us. Sometimes we pray for the sick, but we don't include repentance of sin. Yeah. Or, or the releasing of bitterness, which can also cause physical and emotional illness. Well, that's,
• 36:44
  Dave Leake: I mean, that's a sin. So yeah. So if you are
• 36:48
  Jeff Leake: living with willful sin, or living with willful resentment, unforgiveness, either one of those things can cause a physical issue that God would heal. If you decided to repent and turn around and in surrender chemically, unroll
• 37:01
  Dave Leake: allow, because of the fact that you're because of the
• 37:04
  Jeff Leake: fact that you are living outside of the the protection that he provides
• 37:10
  Dave Leake: one. Yeah, and especially forgiveness. I mean, you can't have salvation without forgiving others. Yeah, that's direct scripture. But anyway, okay.
• 37:18
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so so we can sick. That's one thing, and then a number of you have fallen asleep. Let's just talk about that. So sure, because that doesn't sound like discipline, that sounds like punishment, you're gonna kill me. So you're gonna kill me? No, right. So that's the, like, God says, Some people die prematurely because they're living in willful sin.
• 37:34
  Jeff Leake: But ultimately, I would say if you continue on this track of rebellion against God, and you know what Jesus has done for you and know what he wants you to do with your life, and you continue to walk against it, and you're out from underneath the hedge rivers protection, ultimately, you could put yourself at such a risk that you would die at a time or in a way that God never intended for you because you were in a place doing things you were never intended to be.
• 37:55
  Jeff Leake: Right. And so yes, that's, that's ultimately a consequence.
• 37:58
  Jeff Leake: That doesn't necessarily mean God is sending the judgment of death upon you. It just means that that could become an outcome of your stubborn rebellion against God, or direct and it could also be God.
• 38:13
  Dave Leake: What he's saying, and this is because you have taken communion and drank and eat judgment upon yourself, some of you have died. It's yeah, that's a direct consequence.
• 38:23
  Dave Leake: It's an affront to God. But it's something it's not a passive, you ended up in the situation.
• 38:26
  Dave Leake: This is You brought this on yourself. Yeah. Right.
• 38:31
  Jeff Leake: Don't you think it is? which then brings us to our final segment of the conversation, which is church discipline? Well, quick, quiet, pause quick.
• 38:40
  Dave Leake: You think we should maybe just give you a good read some of this more often.
• 38:45
  Jeff Leake: So let's talk about that from it. I think. So we have started to make some adjustments at Allison Park church in the past couple of years, about the communion celebration itself. One, I think that too many churches, make it too ritualistic and don't take enough time, we are committed to carving out time for the communion moment to happen. The second thing, we've just recently made this adjustment during the pandemic, due to germs and distancing, we started to pass out the communion elements at the door when people would come in, because it was the simplest thing to do. But technically, communion is something that you should intentionally go get. Because you have to make the choice for it. And not everybody walking in the door is eligible for community because not everybody has given their life to Jesus, right? So we've stopped stopped giving it at the door as an entrance item. And we've started making it something that you have to collect at the moment and make that an intentional choice. Third, we're carving out time, we want to make sure that we don't rush that moment, so that we can read passages like this and give people time to repent or forgive or process What the idea of being in covenant with God means or what exactly it means that Jesus died on the cross. And then number four, we're making sure that when we take communion, we have some kind of fellowship moment associated with it after the service because almost always, when they took communion, it was in the context of relationship.
• 40:15
  Jeff Leake: That's they were things were slowed down and we weren't in a hurry. A lot of times people take communion as if it's a me and God moment, I'm gonna get this in and pop this community in my mouth. And I've done this ritual that somehow gives me extra approval somehow. But it really wasn't designed to be just a me and God moment it was to be us and God, right. And actually, one of the things that we are disciplined for is not judging properly, the body of Christ, which is not just, I'm living stubbornly in sin, and I'm not dealing with it, it also is, maybe I'm not living in community, because the body of Christ is us. So So I actually think discerning the body of Christ is, am I actually living in such a way where I'm taking care of the people around me? Am I living? Or am I just living isolated? Yeah. Because that also can be a spiritual problem.
• 41:01
  Jeff Leake: And you can become spiritually sick because of isolation if you're not living in the context of the Body of Christ. So communion is packed. It's like this regular activity that's packed with so much that the speeded up and make it happen, kind of programming that a lot of American churches have, have adopted, is inadequate, to do the business spiritually that we need to be doing. Every time we celebrate the death, burial resurrection of Christ, we probably still are doing it inadequately even with some of those changes. But you're right, I think we do need to read this more often. Because it is a warning. Like every time you take communion is a big deal.
• 41:40
  Jeff Leake: You're either going to intensify your breakthrough in Christ, and the freedom you enjoy them, or you're going to speed His discipline. You're going to accelerate one or the other.
• 41:51
  Jeff Leake: You're you're coming out of communion, either moving closer to God at a faster pace, or moving away from him because you intentionally ignored this moment, and decided to stay stubbornly stuck in whatever attitude of choice you're in.
• 42:04
  Jeff Leake: Yeah.
• 42:06
  Dave Leake: I heard an interesting teaching on this really recently, from Chris Balaton from Bethel. And he was talking about, he was saying, he thinks the language for baptism and communion of it's a symbol is insufficient. Because he was saying, it's not just a symbol, it's really more of a prophetic action. Okay? Where like, when you do this, something happens like, like, because there's, that's why baptism is a command.
• 42:31
  Dave Leake: It's like, it's not just that you should do this because it would be a good public thing to do. It's like, well, when you do this, it's it's a, it's the crucifying of the old and it's the being raised the new life.
• 42:40
  Dave Leake: And it's not like it's like none of that happens. The moment of confession of sin and repentance and coming to Jesus, but there is something Yeah, prophetic that
• 42:50
  Jeff Leake: and then and then the father spoke over Jesus His Son, prophetically, this is my Son, whom I'm well pleased.
• 42:56
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. So there is something that's released from heaven on your behalf as you as you prophesy your future. I'm no longer in my old life, I'm now living a new life, there's a future for me.
• 43:06
  Dave Leake: And community is the same thing. And communion is the same thing. It's it's a it's taking part in the sacrifice of Jesus. It's
• 43:13
  Jeff Leake: aligning with it willfully. Yeah. And aligning with a body of Christ as well.
• 43:17
  Dave Leake: And it is a I don't know what the right word is, I guess, prophetic actors that I can think of. It's not just mystical, that's the wrong word.
• 43:22
  Dave Leake: But it's not just a physical action as a symbol. It is a it's an intention, which leaves them towards something. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Which is why it's such a big deal. Right? So God takes communion very seriously. God takes offerings and gifts very seriously. He takes the way that we treat him with reverence. In general. God is merciful, you know, he's gracious, and even acts of judgment are still, you know, acts of of mercy because they're rescues. Yeah, they're, they're inactive rescue, but, but I think it's something that we have to realize you take seriously.
• 43:59
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so now, we don't actually have to wait for the communion service for correction to happen. Yeah. When someone's living stubbornly and sin, there isn't a pathway forward that we should be providing for each other great.
• 44:11
  Jeff Leake: God's not the only one that provides discipline. We provide discipline to each other. Yeah.
• 44:13
  Jeff Leake: And the church is supposed to be an atmosphere where that kind of accountability and conversation can happen. Great. This is where the jump into all those now.
• 44:22
  Jeff Leake: Well, we have time. This is where the James River Mark Driscoll John Lindell controversy kind of fits in Yep.
• 44:29
  Jeff Leake: Because there is a passage that talks about how to correct someone that you feel like is on the wrong path. It's Matthew 18.
• 44:36
  Jeff Leake: We teach this in our staff as the pathway to all conflict resolution, but it also has to do with this idea of correcting someone's spiritual course.
• 44:43
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, someone's caught in a sin.
• 44:47
  Jeff Leake: You go to them personally and privately, you address them specifically one on one. And then it says if you've won your brother over, and he repents you resolve it, no one else has to know it's private and personal.
• 44:59
  Jeff Leake: If he doesn't respond, he's like, Get out of my face, I don't want to hear from you, I think you're wrong, then you bring along a mediator, so that someone objective can help the conversation happen. And there can be some kind of agreement as to who's right and who's wrong and what needs to happen next.
• 45:14
  Jeff Leake: This mediation step is so huge.
• 45:19
  Jeff Leake: So I've done this with two people who are in this small group and aren't getting along.
• 45:23
  Jeff Leake: I've done this with a husband and wife, who have unfortunately reached a point of separation, and they need to come up with some kind of Separation Agreement. They're both followers of Jesus, but they can't live in the same space. So rather than go into court, they come to spiritual leadership to come up with an answer for that.
• 45:42
  Jeff Leake: But this would also have to do with someone who's who's caught in some kind of sin pattern. If the if the witness the brother, the mediator, confirms that the person is in sin, and they're not repenting, then it says, Then you tell it to the church.
• 45:56
  Jeff Leake: And the church leaders would then go to that person who's in sin and say, we as the authority here, recommend that you take the step. And if they refuse to repent, then then you disfellowship them not. Because you're saying we're better than you, we're superior to you. We think you're just a wicked, evil sinner. But saying, basically, we want you to feel distanced from us emotionally. We love you so much. We want you to be a part of us. But we don't want you to just keep coming here and thinking that you can live this way. And God be okay with it. So our distance from us to send you the message that we are praying for you and want you to get right with God.
• 46:33
  Dave Leake: Can I can I expand on that, too? Before you go any further? One last
• 46:35
  Jeff Leake: thing? Yeah, this kind of conversation and confrontation. Yeah. Where you get to the church leadership disfellowshipping. Someone because they're not repenting, is not designed for first time guests. Sure. It isn't designed for people who are casually checking up the church, right.
• 46:49
  Jeff Leake: And it's not like church leaders are spying in your window looking for you to do something wrong, so they can bring you under church discipline. This is in the rare circumstance, where someone who said, I'm committed to this local church family, my soul is under your care, Pastor, I want you to confront me if I'm out of line, because I belong here. And someone who is in that kind of a circumstance who belongs to a church family, a shepherd, when their sheep wanders away, it goes after the sheep, you don't just let them be eaten up by wolves, and lions, you, you go after them.
• 47:19
  Jeff Leake: So church discipline is a way to go after a sheep that's straying into vulnerable territory, to bring them back into a place of safety. Yeah,
• 47:29
  Dave Leake: it also is probably a way to keep people's like relationship with God and their status of belonging to the corporate church, the church in general, not like Allison Park, specifically, but in front of them so that nobody kind of deceives themselves and is wrong before God but believes that right before God, I mean, there are all these examples of Paul talking to some of this church plants like I know what you're tolerating you can't tolerate this, like Jesus does
• 48:00
  Jeff Leake: that in the book of Revelation, Revelation, exactly
• 48:02
  Dave Leake: in
• 48:02
  Jeff Leake: challenging you to stop, right. Okay. So this is where the confusion comes in with a Mark Driscoll James River situation, because what it is, so again, there was this part of the men's conference where a man performed without a shirt, and did some sort of swallowing, it appeared to some that it was a little bit sensual and compromising. So it felt like this was an off decision, a mistake that was made about whether or not this should happen on the stage at a church conference, Mark, without talking to John Lindell, personally, and privately called it out publicly as a guest in in the house, which is part of what caused the controversy, because then John came on the stage and said, Stop, pulled, pulled mark off the stage, and they had a personal private conversation.
• 48:52
  Jeff Leake: They then went back on the stage and talked about it, as brothers in Christ, about how this was handled and how it should have been handled. And after the event was over, it went sideways again, okay, all kinds of controversy. Some people would say, because this was a public performance, it needed to be confronted publicly. And Mark needed to call this out so that everyone would see that it was clearly wrong. what John was saying is, as a guest in my house, and as a brother of mine, you should have gotten the Matthew 18 way and talk to me about it before you got on stage, so that we could deal with this, according to the Matthew 18 process. I clearly would agree that that was the right thing. The Matthew 18 process is always what's followed. Whenever there's any kind of confrontation and people
• 49:39
  Dave Leake: are always saying online public public's and public rebuke, but I have several issues that first of all, I don't think that's ever an edict in Scripture. Matthew 18 is a protocol. Whereas like Publix and public rebuke is there's some examples of that.
• 49:50
  Dave Leake: But there's
• 49:52
  Jeff Leake: like only after you get the end of the line of the other parts of the process.
• 49:55
  Dave Leake: Well, so So Paul, calling up Peter in front of the other believers that also disagreed and that we're on His side is sort of an example. I don't think it's on the scale
• 50:03
  Jeff Leake: yet. But remember, not everything recorded in the Bible is recommended. That's what I'm saying. I'm not actually sure Paul was correct.
• 50:08
  Jeff Leake: In that moment. Yeah, to do it that way. Right. I actually don't know if he was correct.
• 50:14
  Jeff Leake: Okay. So so
• 50:15
  Dave Leake: I'm saying it's not the protocols and examples when that happened. Yeah. Paul,
• 50:19
  Jeff Leake: Paul was writing the story from his point of view.
• 50:22
  Jeff Leake: But I don't necessarily know that that would have been the recommended process. Sure. So, but I understand what he was writing for, and understanding that the message he was trying to send, and probably even when the book of was it Galatians, this
• 50:37
  Dave Leake: is written in? Well, it's also an ax, it records the event. Yeah.
• 50:40
  Jeff Leake: So I think Peter would have probably even agreed with him in terms of what he wrote. Yeah. So I think by the time it was in print, so to speak, they were in agreement about some things right, but I just think Matthew 18 is the right way no matter what.
• 50:55
  Dave Leake: So I was gonna say, I think that that there's not really a good basis for Publix and public rebuke. And even if there is, even if that was true, I think who does the public rebuking should be a part of that equation? Like Shouldn't it be someone with authority in the house, and not just a guest? Who is meeting motivation for the so
• 51:14
  Jeff Leake: let's say Mark had fallen a different protocol.
• 51:17
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. And he had before he spoke, said, You know, John, Pastor John Lindell, I was really uncomfortable with what I saw at the opening of this conference. And I would really like the chance to address this.
• 51:28
  Jeff Leake: And here's what I'd like to be able to say. And but before I do, I want to appeal to you to pray this through. I know, I have two sessions here that I'm speaking, would you pray this through? And could we in some way, address this in the conference? And if not, you and I need to have serious conversation? Because I think this is way out of line. Yeah.
• 51:47
  Jeff Leake: Okay. And if John had come, because it does seem like John has come to the conclusion that maybe he shouldn't have had this sword. swallower, dude, sure.
• 51:56
  Jeff Leake: Okay. Maybe John overtime would have said, You're right. And then they could have done it in Unity together. As brothers, we had a disagreement over this. At first, we talked about it, we want to share with this publicly, here's our take on this. This is why it was probably a little too dangerous.
• 52:11
  Jeff Leake: Please forgive us for doing this, whatever, then no one is seeing it as a controversy.
• 52:14
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, they actually would then look at that and say, Isn't that beautiful? How these two guys handled this particular matter?
• 52:18
  Jeff Leake: rather than this being on CNN and Fox News? Yeah, about how these two people can't get along. Now, I very much sympathize with where John Lendl was in the journey. As a fellow Pastor, I don't think I could have done a better job of handling it than he did. I know that anybody thrust into that circumstance handles it perfectly. I also appreciate Mark tricycles desire for purity in the church. And, and not and not for compromise. But I think especially and we've talked about Mark's life in a previous podcast, because there was a whole Christianity Today, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill where Mark was out of line, and unsubmitted and angry in a previous part of his ministry, I think especially with his track record, my caution if I was in relationship with him would be Be careful. Yeah, about saying inflammatory things, right.
• 53:20
  Jeff Leake: Because you have a reputation that you have to live down. And especially you shouldn't be the one to trigger these moments.
• 53:26
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. But His whole ministry, it's it appears is built upon these triggering statements. So, and that's really well known about Mark, I'm not now speaking out of turn about another brother, like you can sort of watch his social media, he intentionally wants to trigger to draw attention to what he's saying, right? As a part of the technique of how we teach us. I think we all have to make up our own mind about whether we think that's a good or bad technique.
• 53:59
  Jeff Leake: But I do think if we follow the biblical pattern of Matthew 18, it's always better. Now let's, I know we don't have a lot of time left, you're gonna go through Yeah, we have one more aspect of church discipline that is found in First Corinthians five, which so you go one on one in private with a mediator to church leadership, if still, there is no repentance disfellowshipped treat them as a pagan or tax collector. In First Corinthians, chapter five, Paul take someone who had been through that whole thing, who was in sexual sin.
• 54:26
  Jeff Leake: And he says to the church, and Korath turn them over to Satan now, so that there'll be severe impact on his life, so that maybe even he would die prematurely, his body would be destroyed and his soul saved on the Day of Judgment, meaning he is headed in a direction where he's going to cross the line where he could lose his salvation. And before he does, we want to make sure that God either brings him correction and turns them back on the right path, or that God has to take him out prematurely so that he won't end up I'm in a further eternal, bad situation experiencing judgment, that that kind of church discipline. So I've been involved in the first four. I've done the one on one many times I've done the mediator many times. I've done the church leadership a couple of times. Yeah. Yeah. I've disfellowshipped some people hear in the past over some things. never turned anyone over to Satan. That's like, wow, like you better have a word from the Lord, that that is where you are, because that's a pretty severe aspect. But I guess technically, that's what happens to in essence, a Fira. They're prematurely taken out of this life
• 55:39
  Dave Leake: and probably shouldn't be done by church leadership. Oh, absolutely. When it gets to that point,
• 55:43
  Jeff Leake: the apostle Paul didn't get to be really cautious about that particular step. But I do think we have to understand that living in sin and stubbornness is serious business. If you're part of the church, you professing follower of Jesus Christ, the enterprise on Sapphira story, the first Corinthians five story that Matthew 18 correction process, the communion service, should all be sending us a message that while that God is God of grace, he's also got a discipline.
• 56:11
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. And he's no one to be messed with. Right? He's a holy, righteous creator and judge of the entire world. And if you've said yes to Jesus, and you're wanting to follow Him, you just got a relationship with a wild God, who is very jealous for you. Yeah. And expects for you to be serious about him.
• 56:30
  Dave Leake: Yeah, it's and he's not just loving, He's holy, He's holy, in the holiness is something to be respected and revered. And to be honest, it I think, like, just to just to try to, like, do my own form of balancing of all this not to balance what you said. But just, it's just as, like, we tend to live in such a polarized culture with everything. And you have churches that focus mostly on the holiness of God, and they can sometimes come across as judgmental or harsh or mean, you know, yeah, and some of them, like the bad parts of those would even be like, they're judging, because maybe they're making themselves feel better, because they're living under tremendous amount of guilt. And then you've ever said, that's just grace only almost. And it's like, as long as somebody is within our church at all. Like, that's all we really want God, we'll deal with them personally, we're not going to do any of that. We're not even going to really address lifestyle issues, because like, God can do that.
• 57:20
  Dave Leake: And we're just glad they're here in general, that probably
• 57:25
  Jeff Leake: God's your buddy's okay with it. He loves you, no matter what you can do whatever you want to do. It's right.
• 57:30
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, that's he's a father in heaven, who is holy and righteous. And he has, ultimately a commitment to you becoming like Jesus Christ and your character and lifestyle.
• 57:40
  Jeff Leake: And he does it while he does give grace and forgives and His merciful. He also corrects well as disciplines and challenges more
• 57:51
  Dave Leake: than just him being committed to you. He needs you to be committed to him. Yeah.
• 57:54
  Dave Leake: Because we're a servants. He's literally a holy God. He's not like a person. I mean, he is but he's not like a human. Yeah, he's, he's God. And if you're going to be in relationship with God, he's, he's, he's
• 58:08
  Jeff Leake: God. He's He is the Most Loving, redemptive, Grace filled patient. Yeah, person in the universe. But he's also God.
• 58:16
  Jeff Leake: He's,
• 58:17
  Dave Leake: he's primarily God.
• 58:17
  Dave Leake: I mean, it's like, it's like, God is totally for you. But if you're not totally for God, you're gonna be in judgment. You know what I mean?
• 58:27
  Jeff Leake: Well, no, no, no. Do you know what I'm saying? So you give your life to Jesus. Yeah.
• 58:30
  Jeff Leake: After you give your life to Jesus, you won't be in judgment.
• 58:32
  Jeff Leake: You'll be in discipline. Sure, yeah. So if you're a Christian, and you're not, and you're not being serious about it, you're not gonna you're gonna experience judgment. You're experienced discipline. That discipline could be mean
• 58:44
  Dave Leake: premature death, when I say totally forgot. I'm that the allegiance? Yeah, sure.
• 58:46
  Dave Leake: But if you are a
• 58:50
  Jeff Leake: child of God, you've surrendered your life to Him.
• 58:52
  Jeff Leake: And you're just living in a state of compromise. Yeah, right. God's not gonna smite you. Although it's in his prerogative, you can do whatever he wants. But that's not typically the rule. What he is going to do is going to discipline you, right? He won't let you just skate. Like God is not gonna say am cool with it.
• 59:09
  Jeff Leake: Well, whatever you want. Yeah, he will, he will get involved in your life and he is not going to leave you the option. If you've said I want to be your son or daughter of just living a life however you please he is going to be involved in your life but if
• 59:25
  Dave Leake: you're if you're living in a world that yeah, if you're if you're living in sin right now, and you're listening to this like oh, no, like God is God is quick to forgive. Yeah,
• 59:33
  Jeff Leake: there's a difference between a struggler we should say this, there's a difference between a struggler who takes communion and then goes home and struggles Yes, and a stubborn willful I'm not going to change I refuse to submit Yes, so God never brings sickness, disease or death on a struggler I got a really want to do this. I'm sorry, I'm in and I keep getting into the same hole. I don't want to do this anymore. Please forgive me. God. That is not cause for discipline. Yeah. But like, Yeah, I'm doing I don't care deal with it. I'm just not ready right now. It's stubbornness not struggling.
• 1:00:09
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, that's so needs to be set because a lot of people are gonna live in fear because they struggle. Everybody struggles.
• 1:00:15
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. He's humble struggler that comes into communion should leave feeling forgiven and set free. A stubborn sinner who is refusing to repent should come in aware that God's going to take that very seriously. Yeah.
• 1:00:34
  Dave Leake: Yeah. Isn't that kind of the idea. By the way, everyone talks about struggling of what Jesus says in Matthew 1220, where he says a Bruce reed he will not break in a smoldering wick, he will not sniff out till he is righteous, just justice through victory.
• 1:00:49
  Dave Leake: And his name, nations will put their hope like ideas like I think he's
• 1:00:56
  Jeff Leake: the most tender, yes, patient loving being that ever could be when it comes to your struggles. But he's not always patient with your stubbornness. So you
• 1:01:06
  Dave Leake: shouldn't listen to this and be like, oh, man, I feel way more guilty and God must be so mad and I'm under judgment. And maybe I have this cold or even see even
• 1:01:13
  Jeff Leake: with even with your stubbornness. Scott, I don't think he's mad. Right? But he's like a coach. That's like, all right. You don't want to run suicides. Let's come on, get on the line we're gonna do is we're getting ready for game time.
• 1:01:24
  Jeff Leake: Whether you like it or not.
• 1:01:24
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, he is. He's
• 1:01:27
  Dave Leake: just a way to make God mad though. I guess I just preached a series out of Molokai, I do think our actions have an effect and effect on God's emotions. Yeah. And God does feel
• 1:01:36
  Jeff Leake: hurt. I mean, Scott was even mad at Moses, when he said, Can you send someone else?
• 1:01:38
  Jeff Leake: And finally got his look, I made your tongue. Yeah. Can you stop?
• 1:01:42
  Jeff Leake: Like I do? It's probably true.
• 1:01:45
  Dave Leake: Yeah, true. But but so we need to understand that in relationship with a person like God who is a person. I said, he's not a person, but I met a human. He is a person. He has feelings. He has thoughts. He cares for you desperately. And so our actions affect how we feel and our actions affect how we are not his stance towards us. So
• 1:02:04
  Jeff Leake: how do we how do we conclude this one day?
• 1:02:06
  Dave Leake: So a couple of things, I think we understand that while God is holy, while God is does have judgment and discipline under his prerogative, God cares about us desperately. That's why sent Jesus. And so if you turn your heart towards Jesus,
• 1:02:20
  Jeff Leake: you know that the moment you humble yourself, Grace flows in your direction.
• 1:02:22
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. And so God has grace and mercy and God gives grace to the humble. He opposes the proud whose hearts are humble. Yeah.
• 1:02:29
  Jeff Leake: All you have to do to alleviate your fear today is humble yourself before God. Yes, everything goes away. You don't have to worry about anger, or even discipline. I just got to do be broken before the Lord, a contrite spirit. It says Psalm 51. God will not refuse or despise.
• 1:02:47
  Dave Leake: Yeah, so I think that has to be part of it. The other side is don't play around with rebelling. And yeah, living in compromise and telling God no, like, if there's stuff that you need to do, do it now.
• 1:02:57
  Dave Leake: follow God now? Yeah, I think sometimes, it's kind of always always the balance this sometimes some parts of Christianity in America tend to treat sin as if it's like a kind of optional thing that you should get right? Eventually.
• 1:03:11
  Dave Leake: Get it right now, like, if you can't, I mean, I'm not talking about struggling. But if you need to make a choice to forgive, you need to make a choice to stop living in sin in some way. Treat God with reverence he deserves because He's God. He's not just a buddy.
• 1:03:24
  Dave Leake: It's good. But I think that balance of us being submitted, but also the gracing passion of God is important. And then when it comes to church discipline and confronting other believers, follow Matthew 18. Don't assume that you're like Paul, and should be able to just rebukes of you see it, because you speak truth. Careful
• 1:03:40
  Jeff Leake: to listening to church, church voices, that delight in other people's judgement,
• 1:03:45
  Dave Leake: yeah, or demise or that speak on behalf of God like Old Testament prophets, because that's not how New Testament prophets speak. And you know, now it's out of encouragement and edification. And yeah, so judge judgment, voices like that, I don't think often reflect the harder the character of God, if God wants to judge let God judge, you know. So anything else to say? I think goes probably everything. We went a little long, but it's God help
• 1:04:09
  Jeff Leake: us live before you in a way that you can. We can know you, we can be intimate with you. Forgive us for where we've sinned. Help us to forgive others so that we live in a place of a favor and not have the fear of the Lord. Yeah.
• 1:04:25
  Dave Leake: All right, tricky topic, but it's good. And a We're glad that you joined us again, for this as always, we close. We just love to ask for your help. Maybe you found this to be helpful and for informative, and we would love to be helpful, informative to other people as well. And so you know, if you can kind of help us spread the word, there's a number of things you can do. You can leave us a five star review, and either Spotify or Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to this, frankly, you can leave us a five star review. You can like and subscribe on YouTube.
• 1:04:50
  Dave Leake: You can share this on social media, in any way that you can spread the word makes a big difference and it's a big deal to us. So Once again thanks for joining us we appreciate you listening this episode we'll catch you guys again next time