Latest / Wellness in Today's World / Ep. 8: Navigating Polarization and Bridging Divides

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Ep. 8: Navigating Polarization and Bridging Divides · Wellness in Today's World

• 0:10
  Hello, welcome to Wellness in Today's World with Dr.
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  Debra Kawahara, a space where we discuss the latest insights in psychology, wellness, and everything in between.
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  I'm Debra Kawahara, and I am pleased that you joined us today.
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  I am just so thrilled that we have Dr.
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  Tania Israel with us today.
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  She's an award-winning author, performer, and public speaker.
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  She is known for her books, Facing the Fracture: How to Navigate the Challenges of Living in a Divided Nation, and Beyond Your Bubble: How to Connect Across the Political Divide.
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  She also is a TED Talk performer, including, "How to Win a Political Argument," "What Halibut Fajitas Taught Me About Bridging the Political Divide," and "Bisexuality and
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  Beyond."
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  Dr.
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  Israel is a professor emeritus of counseling psychology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and a fellow of the American Psychological Association.
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  Welcome so much, Dr.
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  Israel.
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  I'm gonna call you Tania, because we've known each other for so long.
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  And just to let everyone know, I am wearing my "ready to be strong"
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  Friendship bracelet that I got from Tania when I got the "Facing the Fracture" book from her.
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  So here we are!
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  I am so glad that you're here.
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  Let's start off with kind of your background, because I know you as a researcher that looked at interventions for LGBTQ individuals as well as kind of a
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  expert that I know of in the field on bisexuality.
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  So how did you make the shift from working in that arena to then navigating the political divide?
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  Oh gosh, thanks.
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  That's a great question.
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  I also just want to say thank you so much for inviting me to join you here.
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  I always love talking with you.
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  We have a super-long history together within the field of psychology.
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  And I'm so glad that you're offering this podcast to people so that you're addressing really important issues.
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  I think
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  giving psychology away, making it public, is so helpful.
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  So thanks for that.
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  Okay, so I'm gonna answer your question.
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  I'm gonna like turn back time.
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  Sorry, I just finished listening to Cher's memoir.
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  So I'm gonna turn back time to the mid 1990s.
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  This was before I even got my PhD.
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  And I started a group to bring together pro-choice and pro-life people to have dialogue with each other.
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  And it was a really transformational experience for me.
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  It didn't change anything about how I felt about abortion, but it changed so much about how I felt about people who disagreed with me about abortion and really humanized people
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  for me, helped me to understand them.
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  With that understanding, I sort of brought that forth into the rest of my career.
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  When I started doing work on LGBTQ issues...
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  and that's really most of my career; I was developing and studying interventions to support LGBTQ folks, but that brought me into contact with a lot of people who did not see
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  eye-to-eye with me about LGBTQ things.
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  I did training for law enforcement.
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  I developed interventions.
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  I did training for mental health professionals.
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  So not everybody
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  was sort of on board with, you know, evidence-based and affirming approaches that I was offering.
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  And so that gave me a lot of practice just in being able to be effective in communicating across differences.
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  And so then the 2016 election happened.
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  That was a moment.
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  And it was a moment when I was not alone in realizing that our country was really divided; that we were having so much trouble connecting across that division.
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  And I was like, well, wait a minute...
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  I know something about how to connect across division and I've been teaching listening skills for decades.
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  So maybe I have something to offer here.
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  So that's kind of how that shift got made, but also how my work on LGBTQ psychology really
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  contributed to that.
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  So it sounds like a lot of the skills and strengths that you had from your career translated to then changing over to focusing on the political divide.
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  Absolutely, and look at you using active listening skills so effectively!
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  You were listening, you summarized back what you heard, and then I'm like, yeah, exactly!
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  Yeah!
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  I feel understood.
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  So just everyone take note, Debra is like an expert on this.
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  I just have to say, I'm a psychologist too.
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  So having those skills are very important.
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  You know, one of the things that I guess as I was reading both Beyond Your Bubble and Facing the Fracture, I think one of the things that made me think about how, as time has
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  gone on, the fracture just seems to be getting wider and
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  wider.
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  I guess the question about how did we get to this place of political divisiveness and almost to the point where people aren't being able to talk to each other that have
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  disagreeing viewpoints or perspectives.
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  Yeah, absolutely.
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  It only seems to be getting worse.
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  And I apologize, I've been doing this work since 2016 and somehow I have not resolved our political divide quite yet.
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  But one of the things that I've done is I've spent a lot of time looking at the research.
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  Indeed there has been a little bit more division in terms of
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  people's views and opinions.
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  So we're a little bit more consolidated than we used to be on the left and right.
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  However, we are not nearly as divided as we think we are.
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  So we perceive that things have gotten really, really extreme on both sides.
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  Well, actually, most people think it's only gotten extreme on the other side and that they are completely moderate and reasonable.
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  In reality, ideologically,
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  we have only gotten a little bit farther apart.
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  What has changed in the last 10 or 15 years has been a big ramp-up in what we call "affective polarization." Affective polarization is the mistrust and distancing that we
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  feel between ourselves and people on the other side.
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  And it's gotten to the point where people don't want to live near,
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  work with, or even have a family member marry somebody who's in a different political party.
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  So it's really that animosity and that mistrust that has increased considerably.
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  And that's what we're feeling.
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  It's not as much about people on the other side being farther apart in their views.
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  It's really about how we're feeling about them.
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  Because in terms of people's views, honestly, most people are in the middle.
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  And that's not, of course, what we perceive because the media is only showing us people at either extreme.
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  So we've got a really skewed perception at this point of who those other people are.
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  And you talk about the media; what do you think are our forces or influences that are fueling the political divide?
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  Because I know, I mean, you watch either side and there's a news channel that you could watch that's gonna
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  support your views and then they're just fueling why the other side is unreasonable or...
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  What do you think are those forces and influences?
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  When I was a child, which was a million years ago, we had...
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  like when you're watching the news on TV, well, first you'd watch all the other things that were on TV.
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  You know, there was All My Children in the afternoon, there was Cheers on, you know, in the evening.
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  But then there was the evening news, there was like evening news, and then there would sometimes be, you know, later in the evening that, you know, that came about that we would
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  have news then.
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  But
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  there wasn't news all the time, you know?
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  And that really shifted with cable news, that we got these news channels and it's like, oh, this is fantastic!
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  Everybody's gonna be so much better informed because we have news accessible to us all the time.
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  But it turns out that if you have a channel where you're showing news every minute of the day, if you wanna keep people's attention,
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  you've got to really make it something extraordinary and emotionally activating.
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  Everything's got to be a crisis, otherwise people will not tune in all the time.
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  And so they're tapping into that—we're psychologists, we understand this—they're tapping into human psychology because it's not just what they're showing us, it's what we are
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  drawn to.
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  And so it's what we're going to click on.
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  And that is the emotionally activating content that's not only saying there's something really important going on, but it's saying the people on the other side are dangerous,
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  they are extreme, and you've got to be really worried about them, and that they are wrong and you are right.
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  This is what our channels keep telling us.
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  That's why we keep tuning in.
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  We love hearing that.
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  And so that's where the news media, it's what they're feeding us, but it's what we are gobbling up and asking for more.
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  What it really makes me think about is just when there's like disasters or some kind of catastrophe and we know that people will get hooked in to just wanting to constantly get
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  information about it.
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  But as we have learned over time, needing to compartmentalize for your own, like, health and wellbeing.
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  Otherwise it could consume you and actually
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  put you not in a good place.
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  And that's what I hear you kind of saying is that we start taking this stuff in and it feels so good because...
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  you know, what it made me actually think about too is you need to save this country.
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  These other people are trying to do something very bad.
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  And so you need to be out there kind of countering this behavior.
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  uh
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  That is the part where being kind of a consumer of media seems to be really important and to know that you're being fed this information.
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  So I know this newer book, Facing the Fracture, it is about...
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  I took it as you really wanting to focus on
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  how it impacts us internally and emotionally, our well-being.
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  So I wanted to kind of have you talk a little bit more about that piece of it, because that seemed...
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  I know Beyond the Bubble was about how do you navigate the discussions, but then you realize that there were still people that were in distress or angst
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  about the political divisiveness.
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  So tell me a little bit more about what you learned and what you found as you were writing this book.
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  Absolutely.
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  Now we'll go back to 2016.
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  I had this big realization.
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  I was like, maybe there's something that I can do to help.
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  So I started creating resources, the first of which was very simply the flow chart that will resolve all political conflict in our country.
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  I was like, this is simple.
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  Like we just need to be more intentional about what we're doing, when we're talking to other people.
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  And if we want to engage, how do we do that effectively?
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  So I literally made a flow chart.
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  Spoiler alert:
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  It has not actually resolved all political conflict in our country.
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  But I think that's just a distribution issue.
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  So I just want everyone to go to my website.
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  You can download it for free and just send it to everybody you know.
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  And then we're going to be just fine.
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  So what I realized is I'm telling people to do these things in terms of how they talk to people, in terms of managing their emotions.
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  But maybe people don't know how to do them.
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  So I was like, great, I'll make a workshop
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  or I will train people to do these things.
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  I will train people in the skills of listening and the skills of emotion regulation.
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  And so I did that and still not quite enough.
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  And more people wanted it.
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  So I was like, all right, then I guess I'll write a book.
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  So I wrote a book.
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  This is my first book that I've written.
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  And it was about how to have dialogue.
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  It's very specifically like, here's exactly what you do.
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  Here are examples of what that looks like and, you know, it's a guidebook about how to have these conversations.
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  And some people were like, "This is great, this is super helpful, this is exactly what I need." And then there were those people who said, "Okay, Tania, it's really nice you wrote
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  this book about how to have dialogue, but I don't wanna talk to those people.
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  But I'm still kind of losing my mind.
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  So what do you got for me?" And that's when I realized,
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  navigating polarization is not just about how we talk to people who have different views.
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  It's about how we are interpreting and how we are understanding those other people, how we're viewing them, how we're viewing polarization.
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  And then what do we need to do to sort of have a correct
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  view of who those people are and who they are in relation to us.
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  And then how do we develop some resilience and some open-mindedness and open-heartedness to be able to move forward in this world?
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  Like whether or not we're actually having those conversations with other people, people can be sitting at home by themselves, listening to the radio and stressing out.
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  So it's not just about our encounters with other folks.
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  It's a lot
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  about our encounters with our own minds.
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  I like that; encounter with our own mind.
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  So I'm imagining that a listener is kind of saying yeah, it's so easy to just say be open-minded be whatever, right?
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  Look at yourself.
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  But I guess practically, what would be tools
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  to be able to listen effectively and not allow your emotions to kind of overcome and just say, this person's just...
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  ignorant or whatever.
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  So I guess what would you say are some tools or strategies that somebody could use so that their emotions don't blind them to trying to hear what that other person's position is?
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  You know, the first book that I wrote was about how to have dialogue.
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  I address dialogue in Facing the Fracture also.
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  It's in chapter eight.
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  Because what I realized was, I was starting at the wrong place for most people.
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  And when I say, you know, opening our minds and hearts, people are like, I don't want to like open my heart to those people on the other side.
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  What are you, nuts?
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  So I realized, oh my gosh, we got to start in earlier steps.
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  Part of the book is all about just turning down the volume on that polarization, the input that we're getting that divides us.
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  Some of that is about how we interact with the news.
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  If you are home having the news on all the time in the background, ooh, that's not good for us.
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  not sure.
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  like it doesn't even make us better informed.
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  Like you're hearing the same thing over and over, or you're hearing all the commentary that again is telling you that these other people are evil and that you're totally right
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  about everything.
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  And that's not actually helping us to be in a better place in terms of our own mental health, let alone in terms of preparation to engage with others.
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  One of the things to do is like to limit
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  our use of media and I think some of that is not just about, you know, telling ourselves, you know, I need to be more open-minded or, all of this.
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  I think we need some behavioral guardrails on ourselves.
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  And so the first thing that I do is, you know, if there's some news that I want to know, like something's going on in the world, I want to know about it.
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  I think, okay, what do I want to know?
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  What source or sources do I want to go to for information?
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  And how long do I wanna spend getting that information?
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  And sometimes I'll even set a timer.
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  I'm like, okay, I'm gonna spend 10 minutes learning about this and I can learn a lot in 10 minutes.
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  And I have sources that I go to.
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  I listen to NPR every day and so that's like my primary source of information.
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  But I recognize that even if everything that they say is accurate, they're only giving me a small slice.
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  And so I will often go to a website called allsides.com, which will show how a particular issue is being covered by multiple media sources across the political spectrum.
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  And I find that so useful because one, I will find out that there is information or a narrative about something that I haven't been exposed to already.
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  And that's really useful for broadening my view, but also for helping me to understand how somebody else
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  could see things so differently than I do without being, you know, uninformed, misinformed, hostile, whatever.
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  They're just like, this is the story that they're getting about it.
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  That's really the first thing is recognizing what that input is.
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  And some of that's from news and some of it's from our engagement with social media, which, oh my gosh, like...
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  Don't even try to have political conversations or think that you're getting something objective on social media.
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  There's an algorithm.
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  I think we all know that.
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  But again, what information do you want to get, what sources, and how long do you want to spend doing it?
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  And then get out and do something else.
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  So that's the first thing is kind of readjusting how we are
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  you know, getting our inputs about information.
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  And then there's also recognizing that we are filtering all of that through our minds, through the cognitive biases that we have, through the sort of tribal minds that we have
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  evolved with.
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  And that's filtering out things so that we are, you know, really thinking about
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  ourselves as having all of the goodness and all the information and the other side is the enemy.
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  You know, as you were talking about biases, it sounds like you need to be very intentional in terms of trying to get diverse perspectives.
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  And I guess I heard you actively going to a site that's going to broaden your perspective and allow you to maybe hear some different opinions from your own.
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  But you have to be
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  active and you have to be willing to do that is what I'm hearing you say.
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  Absolutely, and you also have to go into that with a particular intention because I hear some people say well I listen to you know this channel on the other side and that doesn't
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  make me think that they're any more reasonable and I'm like yeah if you're going in and you're listening to the extreme on the other side and you're going in there and being like
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  no, I think that's wrong and that's not what I'm hearing and you know, sure you can critique it.
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  That's why
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  looking at something...
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  and honestly, like allsides.com has a lot that's also in the middle and seeing how that's being covered by, you know, like Newsweek and USA Today and much more, you know, kind of
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  in the middle journalism is useful too.
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  Journalists will also tell you this, like they don't give us bullet-pointed facts.
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  They give us stories and they're supposed to...
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  sort of have a perspective on it that they're offering us.
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  They're supposed to give us accurate information, but not outside of some kind of context where we'll understand it within a story.
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  So it has to be engaging in some way.
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  So it's not just this objective, I'm going to write all the facts, because you probably wouldn't get a lot of readers to read it if it's that dry, right?
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  And we even know that in terms of trying to get people to listen or read our stuff; that's part of all of it, that is.
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  You know, as I think about it,
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  again, it seems like you're talking about being able to be in a place where you're calm, where you're open, and what we call as "grounded," so that you are able to then be able to
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  hear the other's perspective.
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  Oftentimes we call it "perspective taking" or empathy, right?
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  I guess if you were new to this,
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  what would you say would be a good way of learning how to take perspective, other people's perspective?
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  So I think the first thing is you have to want it.
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  I hear so many people say, I simply cannot understand how people could, you know, think that way or act that way or vote that way.
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  But people don't say it as a like, wow, I don't understand.
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  I'm so curious.
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  People say it like as a, you know, I'm so well-informed and so moral that how could anyone possibly see something a different way?
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  So that's the first shift we have to make.
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  And that's something that we call "intellectual humility";
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  that we have to have this curiosity.
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  We have to recognize that there are limits to our own understanding and that those people who see things a different way, they are a source for us.
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  They can help us to understand a different perspective.
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  So whether it's actually engaging with another human being and being curious or whether it's doing something like looking at a different news source so that you can understand
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  how somebody could see things a different way.
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  So much of it has to do with what our intention is going into that and that real desire to know more.
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  'Cause frankly, we are not gonna be effective humans by understanding only our own narrow perspective.
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  Whether we're trying to find common ground or advocate for an issue
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  or maintain a relationship with somebody.
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  And those are the main reasons people tell me that they want to engage with people across political differences.
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  We're going to be better off if we actually have some idea of how people could see things from another perspective.
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  I'll even sometimes look at Twitter or Twitter/X to understand what are people saying?
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  I'll look for a particular hashtag or an issue and I'll be like,
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  what are people saying about this on the other side?
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  And what are people saying about people who agree with my perspective?
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  And I'm like, oh, they're pointing out some hypocrisy on my side.
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  It's like the worst thing about, for me, about doing this work.
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  I used to be able to see very clearly the hypocrisy of people on the other side, and now I can see the hypocrisy of people on my side.
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  And I'm like, no, this is no fun at all.
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  But yeah, that's one of the things is to understand not only
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  what do they see?
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  But what are they seeing about my view that maybe I'm missing?
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  So multiple perspectives is what I'm thinking about.
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  And being able to examine our own perspective is part of this work that you're talking about.
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  So let me ask you another question.
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  You know, some people are feeling really disheartened, feeling really overwhelmed, feeling hopeless, kind of that
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  we're in this stuck place and both sides don't seem to be coming together even if we're in uncertain times and challenging times.
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  So what would you say to them in terms of how they're feeling and what to do about that?
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  I hear so much hopelessness and distress from people.
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  One of the things that gives me the most hope is there's something called "the bridging movement." There are over 500 organizations who are working on bridging divides and
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  strengthening our democracy.
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  Most people don't know anything about this because the news is not giving it nearly enough attention.
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  But this is what gives me hope because not only are these organizations doing things, but people are engaging with them.
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  Even like, you know, people are like, well, elected officials aren't doing anything.
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  No, the Problem Solvers Caucus in Congress is actually a bipartisan group that's working together on issues.
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  The National Governors Association has been doing the Disagree Better campaign.
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  There's so much going on at all of these different levels,
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  but mostly the news is covering the divisiveness.
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  So you have to tune in to what's going on that's good here.
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  And I'm just gonna give your listeners, if you're gonna do one thing, go to the Listen First project and sign their Listen First pledge.
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  All it means is that you are gonna get an email every week on Listen First Friday that's gonna tell you about something good that's going on
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  in the bridging movement.
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  That is the most hopeful thing for me.
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  There are things like, for example, there's this group called Raft for America.
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  They have been taking Democrats and Republicans out on whitewater rafting trips together.
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  It sounds so dangerous.
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  Yeah, right.
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  But that's exactly what it is.
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  If you are relying on another person,
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  and you're interacting with other three-dimensional human beings, you actually realize that they are people and that they are not the narrow, two-dimensional stereotypes that
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  you have in your mind.
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  That's just one example, but there's so many things that people are doing from interfaith perspectives, from leadership-building perspectives, from community engagement...
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  having meals together, having conversations with each other.
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  There's so many things happening.
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  And that is what gives me hope, because there's really a movement going on.
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  There's also things like over half of Americans have changed how they're using their phones and social media
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  in response to recognizing these problems that are going on.
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  And we're actually making changes.
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  I mean, some young people are switching from smartphones to those old flip phones that we used to use, because they're like, I can't stop myself from scrolling.
• 27:25
  So I need to change what I'm doing so that I recognize it doesn't have a positive impact on me.
• 27:33
  So I'm like, people are actually doing things that are better for
• 27:39
  our own mental health and better for our collective well-being and our democracy.
• 27:45
  And so tuning into that good news about what's going on is so important.
• 27:49
  Yeah, you know, as you were talking, it made me think about connection and relationship, and seeing each other as humans, like not these objectified
• 28:02
  things that have these awful and evil opinions.
• 28:06
  And when we're able to do that, then it is more possible to hear the other person.
• 28:14
  Yes, that's summarizing it all perfectly.
• 28:17
  That we've got to get ourselves into a state where we are calm and where we're curious.
• 28:24
  You were asking before about like, what can people do?
• 28:27
  There's some very simple things that we can do just with deep breathing.
• 28:31
  um That when we find ourselves getting activated,
• 28:35
  and often that's either by the way we're thinking somebody is or the way that they're interacting with us.
• 28:41
  Like sometimes we're going to interact with people who are going to be really riled up.
• 28:46
  One of the things that, you know, we're going to react to that person as if they are a threat.
• 28:51
  And so our nervous system is going to get kicked up and our adrenaline is going to flow and we're going to get into fight, flight, or freeze mode.
• 28:58
  People tell me a lot of times that they feel unsafe and I'm like, oh my gosh, if you're unsafe, how do we get you out of a dangerous situation?
• 29:06
  They're like, no, no, no, I'm not unsafe.
• 29:09
  I just feel unsafe.
• 29:10
  And I'm like, that's so good that you recognize that distinction.
• 29:14
  Because if we're unsafe, we should get out of danger.
• 29:18
  If we feel unsafe, but we're not unsafe, the best thing that we can do is learn to regulate
• 29:26
  our nervous system.
• 29:28
  'Cause that's going to help us to actually respond to the situation that we're in.
• 29:34
  And it's a good skill to have.
• 29:36
  So we can do that by taking slow, deep breaths.
• 29:40
  We can do that by, you know, physically grounding ourselves by feeling the floor under our feet or the chair under our bodies.
• 29:48
  We can even like touch our own hand to bring ourselves back into our physical body.
• 29:54
  Those kinds of things help us to be calm.
• 29:56
  And then, you know, I talked about the curiosity.
• 29:58
  If we have those two things, we're in the best state to be able to face those challenges.
• 30:04
  Wonderful.
• 30:05
  You've given some tools and strategies.
• 30:08
  So I want to actually ask you some questions about yourself because I'm sure the listeners are kind of curious about it.
• 30:17
  Working in this area has to be, you know, at times hard or difficult.
• 30:24
  And so how do you remain grounded and optimistic even though
• 30:31
  at times I'm sure it's contentious and conflictual and things like that.
• 30:36
  So how do you do that for yourself?
• 30:38
  As I was writing the book, I was like, and I would be looking at the research and I'm like, I'm not doing this stuff.
• 30:44
  I need to do this stuff.
• 30:46
  Like I need to do exactly what I'm telling other people to do based on the research.
• 30:50
  So like with my phone, yeah, I have the same problem everybody has about being on their phone too much.
• 30:56
  So I set up a little charging station by my front door so that I can plug in my phone when I come home and not carry it around with me
• 31:04
  when I'm home, because I'm home.
• 31:06
  I can hear my phone when it dings.
• 31:08
  So I'm like, but wait, I'm not counting my steps as I'm doing laundry.
• 31:12
  But you know what?
• 31:14
  I'm still doing the steps.
• 31:16
  And I've realized that there are things like counting steps that get me more focused on my phone.
• 31:21
  So I'm trying to keep myself off of those kinds of things that force me to be on my phone more.
• 31:29
  I'm actually implementing the things that I recommend and it turns out that that's very helpful.
• 31:35
  I've made my hot tub a no phone zone.
• 31:38
  I make sure that I am not so attached to that.
• 31:41
  So that's one thing is just some of those behavioral things that help me to be in a calmer state.
• 31:50
  I practice Buddhism and so I have meditation practices that I do and I find that incredibly helpful.
• 31:55
  I always recommend that if people have some kind of uh spiritual or faith-based practice, using that can be a really effective grounding mechanism.
• 32:05
  uh
• 32:06
  Pema Chödrön is a Buddhist teacher who I just love.
• 32:09
  I cite her in the book and some of the work that she does on heart-opening practices.
• 32:15
  So I really think that her work and her resources are so beneficial for anybody.
• 32:23
  You don't have to have a particular belief system.
• 32:25
  She's really accessible.
• 32:27
  So as we get to our last question, I'd like to end with, what do you think the key takeaways that you want listeners to have as we end today?
• 32:40
  I think that the most important thing is that the kinds of things that I'm recommending are important, not just in the face of political division, but are going to be helpful for
• 32:52
  our own mental and relational wellbeing no matter what.
• 32:58
  When we actually control the input
• 33:02
  of what we're getting with news and how we're interacting with social media.
• 33:06
  When we develop those resilient skills of being able to manage our own emotional state.
• 33:13
  When we are curious and compassionate, and when we have the skills to be able to engage with other people, those are going to help us in our whole lives.
• 33:24
  And if this moment of division is what
• 33:28
  brings people's attention to that and motivates people to work on that, then I think that is really helpful in just making for a better society in general.
• 33:40
  Such gems that we got from you today.
• 33:43
  Thank you for joining us today.
• 33:45
  I really am appreciative of all that you're doing to help, I think, navigate the political divisiveness that we're dealing with today.
• 33:55
  So thank you so much for joining us.
• 33:57
  And for our listeners, please remember: Wellness is a journey, not a destination.
• 34:03
  Take care and we'll see you next time.