Latest / Identity at the Center / #364 - Building Bridges in Identity with IDPro Joni Brennan

Transcript

#364 - Building Bridges in Identity with IDPro Joni Brennan · Identity at the Center

0:04
This is Identity at the Center. Welcome to the Identity at the
0:11
Center podcast. I'm Jeff and I am flying solo
0:13
today. Jim is in the middle of a cross
0:15
country move and he gave his best attempt.
0:19
He tiled in from a coffee shop and it will take a big
0:23
background. And I was like, dude, you look
0:24
like you're in a hostage video and it's very noisy.
0:26
He's like, I'll just take it today.
0:28
So without further ado, let me go ahead and and bring in, I
0:31
guess technically my my Co host for today, Joni Brennan.
0:35
She is the chair of the board of directors for ID Pro.
0:38
So welcome back to the show, Joni.
0:40
Thanks so much. It's great to be here.
0:42
Thanks for having me. Yeah.
0:43
So honorary Co host for us and this is something that we hope
0:46
to be doing with ID Pro a little more frequently now that we are
0:49
the official podcast for ID Pro, which we kind of announced that
0:52
a couple months ago. And then Jim and I got busy
0:54
with, between going to Europe and Vegas for conferences.
0:58
And I was telling you before I hit record, this is the first
1:01
episode of the podcast that I've, I've actually sat down and
1:03
recorded in like 2 months. So you know, we'll make sure the
1:07
rest isn't there. But welcome back.
1:09
You were with us for episode 290, which was about a year ago
1:14
in June. I want to say 2024 for those
1:16
listening in the far future. You were coming to us then from
1:19
a trailer in Starlink. Has anything changed?
1:23
Still in the trailer, still on Starlink.
1:28
We're looking good. Hopefully we're looking good and
1:30
sounding good. So yeah, still working out off
1:32
the side of the mountain and just thrilled, thrilled to be a
1:35
Co host today. I didn't put that all together.
1:37
So 290 Co host day like wow, this is exciting.
1:42
Well, it's obviously the most significant achievement probably
1:44
in your career. So welcome to the big time.
1:47
Now I'm just, you know, so I guess you know, let's kind of
1:51
dive into that because you're you're coming in as the new
1:54
chair for ID Pro. I'm sure you've got lots of
1:55
thoughts. I'm a member of ID Pro and
1:57
definitely encourage people out there.
1:59
It's the best community for identity people in the world,
2:02
you know, unbiased. I just think it is, but let's
2:05
talk a little bit about sort of what you've been working on for
2:07
the last year, 'cause I knew you were a couple hats and we'll
2:09
probably talk a little bit about DIAC, which we'll get into that
2:11
and we'll talk about IT pro. But just give us an update.
2:13
What's what's life been like? Have you left the trailer in the
2:16
last year? Yeah.
2:17
So, yeah, we do leave the trailer to be clear.
2:20
But you know, at the same time, you know, life has been, life
2:25
has been exciting. You know, I think we're we're,
2:29
you know, we're grateful to to to be in the land that we are
2:32
and the place that we are and to have nature all around us.
2:36
And, you know, dealing with all the UPS and the downs of the
2:40
world economies, all the, all the silly stuff that, you know,
2:43
kind of happens from day-to-day and dealing with that.
2:46
And it certainly helps to kind of open the window and look out
2:50
at trees and mountains. But yeah, we're splitting our
2:51
time just the majority in the city.
2:55
But the joke that we have is that the the trailer is actually
2:58
slightly bigger than our city apartment.
3:00
So it's kind of nice to be in that times.
3:03
But it's been a good year. Yeah, thanks for asking.
3:06
Well, that's good. So you're in Canada.
3:08
For those that are probably wondering, where in Canada are
3:10
you? Yeah, I'm in Canada.
3:12
I'm based in British Columbia and I split my time between
3:16
Vancouver and Whistler. So it's a great place to be.
3:20
Lots of skiing, mountains, biking and all those kinds of
3:24
things. And, and so, yeah, I love to do
3:27
this work out of Canada and, and you know, for, for the
3:30
background for people as well. I'm a dual citizen, so I, I
3:34
immigrated from New Jersey to Canada.
3:36
So it's quite the transition. But we're, we're figuring it
3:39
out. We're making it work, you know,
3:41
just adding an extra O into all the words every chance I get.
3:44
That's basically all you got to do.
3:46
Joni's gone global folks, so we got to watch out for that one.
3:50
So the last year or so, you know, we've, we've had a lot of
3:54
action in the IT pro world. And so I guess let's start with
3:57
ID pro like what's what's the thing that the membership who is
4:01
hopefully listening to this should be aware of, you know,
4:04
within the last, you know, let's say a few months or so and, and
4:08
sort of what you're expecting here as you, you know, take over
4:10
the chairman. Yeah, thanks for that.
4:13
So first of all, it's important. I I want to recognize and thank
4:18
everyone, all of the, the, the board members and the
4:21
leadership, the emeritus, the outgoing chair and, and folks
4:27
like Heather and and the team because it is everything is a
4:31
village, right. And so, so many people and their
4:33
contributions and efforts help to produce and support the
4:37
community that we have in the ID Pro to get it to where it is.
4:42
And now with the opportunity of being chair of the board, you
4:47
know, I'm working as a team with the entirety of the board and
4:50
the officers. Now we have an opportunity to
4:53
look at what will be the next chapter.
4:56
Yes, at the at the leadership on the board, where do we need to
5:00
be focusing? And so we're working on that
5:02
layer. And then also, you know, anytime
5:05
you have incoming leadership or change in leadership, it's
5:09
always an opportunity to open the door because to open the
5:13
door for communications, because you know what, I would really
5:16
love you could, you could feel free to, you know, connect with
5:20
me and LinkedIn, send me a note. I know there's a very active
5:24
Slack as well. I admit, I'm not the best.
5:27
I'm a slacker on Slack, if that, if that makes sense.
5:30
So I try to do the slack, but I'm not always up on the slack.
5:34
Send a carrier pigeon a message in a bottle.
5:37
Anyway, I would love to hear from the members of ID Pro and
5:40
I'd love to hear from the members.
5:43
What are the things that your that your time with ID Pro like?
5:47
What should ID Pro continue doing?
5:50
Like what's been working? What's been helping you?
5:53
What should, are there things that we're doing that you think
5:55
maybe we should stop doing those things?
5:57
And then also, you know, is there something that you think
6:00
that we could be doing as an organization?
6:02
So that's just a open invitation.
6:04
Let's connect. Send me a message on LinkedIn.
6:06
I'd love to hear what your feedback is as we set the next
6:09
chapter for where the members find the value and what the
6:13
where the members think we should go next.
6:15
I certainly have some thoughts on that.
6:17
I'm very keen to hear what people think you know directly.
6:21
Yeah, I'm sure people have opinions.
6:23
So now is the time, right? I think it's, it's, you know,
6:26
it's kind of like what I tell people when I come in from a
6:28
consulting. It's like I can't fix what I
6:30
don't know about. So unless you're willing to
6:32
share and, you know, tell the doctor where it hurts, you're
6:36
you're going to have a much better experience of, you know,
6:38
resolving the pains out there. And there's lots of ideas.
6:41
I'm, you know, I'm sure I have several.
6:43
I might even pitch a few here as we're as we're kind of talking
6:45
along, but I would definitely encourage people to reach out.
6:48
I think that's one of the great things about the ID Pro
6:50
community is that yes, it is a very active Slack channel.
6:53
And you know, people are always willing to help out.
6:56
But that should go both ways, right?
6:57
It should be, Hey, how do we make this organization as best
7:00
as we can? And so I, you know, great ideas
7:03
come from all sources. Let's let's destroy Joni Joni's
7:07
inbox. Oh, that assumes that it's not
7:10
destroyed already, so let's add more destruction.
7:13
Happy for that. Yeah, sounds good.
7:15
So what do you see as sort of next you you mentioned you have
7:19
some ideas and you and I were kind of chatting and I'm sure
7:21
we'll get into it, you know, kind of off air.
7:23
We'll get it here on air, probably here in a minute.
7:24
But what are some of your thoughts as you come into the
7:28
role? And, and I want to be able to
7:29
ask maybe some harder questions. And we didn't prep for this.
7:32
It was kind of like putting on the spot.
7:34
But you know, what are the things that you think ID Pro
7:37
does really well? And what are the things that we
7:40
need to get get better at as a group?
7:42
And I mean that in a spirit of love and communication.
7:45
And let's make this thing better.
7:48
Totally right. So a yeah, we did not do a lot
7:52
of or even really any prep. So but that's awesome because
7:55
we're we're we, we know the space, we're here to talk and
7:57
nobody claims to have all the answers.
7:59
So that makes the conversation a lot easier to have what I think,
8:05
because what I think what you think ID Pro does well or
8:08
doesn't could be very different than what I think it does well
8:10
or not what I think it does well.
8:14
Number one, I think it, it, it, it connects people.
8:17
It connects people who, who are in this industry, whether
8:20
they're, you know, just new coming into the industry,
8:24
whether they've been in it for a while or, you know, they're,
8:26
they're really senior level and they've been in the space for
8:29
quite a while. It it connects at all levels
8:32
people that are dedicated to identity, identity and identity
8:36
management is a profession. So I think that's really well
8:40
done and happens at the conferences and through outreach
8:43
like this and in LinkedIn and I see it all over the place and
8:45
Slack and I see it all over the place.
8:48
The other thing, another thing that I think that ID Pro does
8:52
well is the, is the, the, the capabilities survey, the each
8:58
year, you know, where are we feeling where our technical
9:02
skills as a community, taking the sentiment of the community
9:05
for where we are in our, in our aptitude, in our learning and
9:09
what our perceptions are. So I think that's a really
9:11
valuable piece of work that's unique and, and, and I would
9:14
expect, you know, she'd keep going.
9:16
And then the other piece I think that ID Pro does well is of
9:20
course the Sid Pro and having the certification program that's
9:23
well founded and well built. And by the way, based on the
9:27
Bach. So I think the, the, you know,
9:30
the, the, the Bach is definitely an asset that continues to grow
9:36
and continues to grow over time. So those are just a small list
9:41
of all the things that I think ID Pro is doing really excellent
9:44
at. Where do I think that ID Pro
9:47
could improve? I think that there's work to be
9:50
done collectively. Listen, I'm a, I've spent my
9:55
career in nonprofit organizations and being being a
9:59
team member in nonprofit organizations, specifically on
10:02
identity. That's so I've got, you know, 25
10:05
years in that in all of those roles around that space.
10:09
So one of the things that I was looking for more in ID Pro is
10:13
like a little bit more structure, like how do we get
10:18
together and share information? What are those structures?
10:21
How does it work? Should we have even, I am kind
10:26
of looking around and just saying, OK, well, we've got, you
10:29
know, files over here, we've got Slack and we've got this.
10:31
And, and I'll tell you some of this might be some of my
10:34
thoughts here. Might also, I also ponder quite
10:38
often the, you know, the kind of the two poles of models, if
10:42
one's centralized and one's decentralized, like leaning too
10:46
far into either of those has challenges and opportunities.
10:49
And me personally, sometimes I feel like ID Pro is really,
10:52
really decentralized and I'm looking for a little bit, a
10:55
little bit more centralization in the middle for what's the
10:58
best way for us to engage? How do members, aside from going
11:02
on a podcast and saying, Hey, what do you think?
11:04
How what are the channels by which members could be raising
11:07
opportunities and raising ideas? Because I truly believe that
11:10
when we're all contributing together and we're all this is
11:15
our organization. And so we all have an
11:18
opportunity to contribute to it, to shape it and to continue to
11:23
make it more valuable. So I think a little bit more
11:25
structure is something that I'm kind of keen on so that the
11:28
members have more opportunity. And then, you know, the other
11:31
piece of that as well is something that I've been
11:34
something I've been really trying a problem space.
11:38
I've been trying to whittle away on in, in, in, in my day job and
11:43
in my job as as volunteer chair on the board is I get a sense
11:49
that, you know, when I take the skills survey every year or
11:53
complete it, I'll give myself away.
11:56
I'm one of those people. I think there's a question that
11:58
says, you know, do you feel like a professional yet or something
12:01
like that at the end? And I'm always like, not yet,
12:05
almost maybe next year, you know, So I'm always kind of
12:09
looking for what's that space of improvement?
12:11
And sometimes I wonder if there's the word identity is a
12:17
really, really big word. And I've in fact been another
12:20
forum sometimes making the case for not using the word identity
12:24
for the work that we do because sometimes I think it's either
12:27
too wide or the person on the other end thinks it's something
12:31
different than what we're trying to communicate.
12:33
So we're not going to change that word necessarily.
12:36
But I do think kind of underneath that is what is an
12:40
identity professional in my my own view, I think an identity
12:43
professional is someone who is the is the software engineer.
12:47
I also think it's the person who's got the policy advocacy
12:50
and understands the policy and governance landscape.
12:53
I think it's the person who does the comms and can communicate.
12:56
What's the business problem that we're trying to solve here?
12:59
Why should you even listen to the conversation that I'm having
13:03
with you about authentication or wallets or this or that?
13:06
So I think that ID pro could you could serve more people and are
13:12
and the core people that are in the community already by looking
13:15
to what are those different flavors of identity
13:18
professionals in in a little bit of the business of identity in
13:23
addition to and complementary to the technical layer, which I
13:27
think is really well represented in our org today.
13:29
So how can we kind of build out those other persona?
13:32
And maybe they're here already and and I just love to see them
13:36
put their hands up, you know, and so we can kind of take note
13:38
and and make sure that we're representing those different
13:41
flavors of identity professionals.
13:42
So that's just a little thinking on my side.
13:45
I love some of the ideas you've got there.
13:47
I think I'll start with strengths and give you feedback
13:50
real time. I think the Slack is, you know,
13:53
hands down the number one reason that I always recommend ID Pro
13:56
to people is go on Slack. You'll find tons of helpful
14:00
people. For the most part, the identity
14:02
community is not sitting on knowledge and thinking of it as
14:06
a competitive advantage. Now, yes, we have vendors and
14:09
stuff like that. I get that part of it, But for
14:11
the most part, most people are in this together.
14:14
And so having a place where you can ask like literally any
14:17
question about identity and get the answers back from real
14:20
identity people is hands down to me.
14:23
That's worth the membership fee per year.
14:26
The body of knowledge is great, for sure.
14:29
I, I, I, I don't, I don't want to underestimate the challenge
14:32
of trying to curate all that. And I think this is where
14:34
Heather and her, I think she has a library background, right?
14:36
Is, you know, definitely helps out with that kind of stuff.
14:39
But that's stuff that has to be kept Evergreen because the
14:43
question, you know, on the survey is, well, you know, are
14:45
you do you consider yourself, you know, an expert and I am or,
14:48
you know, when do you think you're comfortable with it is?
14:51
I don't think anyone ever really is.
14:53
You might be good at one part of identity, but there's so much
14:56
more to it. And so I love to hear the things
14:58
like getting into what I like called, you know, like the
15:00
business of I am. And This is why we asked this
15:04
question to lead off most shows. I didn't ask you today, you
15:06
know, how did you get into identity?
15:08
I've already asked you that. Go back.
15:10
Listen to episode 290 for people who want to know that that
15:12
story. But there are so many different
15:15
ways you can get into identity and it doesn't have to be
15:18
technical. And there is so much value that
15:21
non-technical identity people, Orion people or whatever are
15:24
going to calling ourselves bring to the table that you do need to
15:29
be well-rounded. And so I love to hear things
15:31
around, yeah, let's talk about project management of identity.
15:35
Let's talk about program management.
15:37
Let's talk about how do you get a CSO to give you the budget?
15:41
How do you you know if you're AC?
15:42
So if how do you get the board or other parts of, you know, the
15:46
executive organization to get the budget to do things because
15:50
there are so many. I am heroes that run around in
15:52
organizations and it's like sheer will is how they operate.
15:56
And that is not sustainable. So you kind of need to think
15:58
about how you keep that going. And so I love to hear the ideas
16:01
around, you know, tackling not just standards and specs, which
16:04
are very important, crucial right to make things go.
16:08
And so I, I, I love to hear those ideas.
16:10
And I guess I don't know what it manifests us as.
16:12
Is it, you know, conversations? Is it webinars?
16:16
Is it, you know, a, a, a document of the body of
16:19
knowledge? It's like, hey, here's how,
16:20
here's how I was able to get funding to invest in an IGA
16:24
platform or privilege access or whatever.
16:26
Maybe I don't know, you have thoughts kind of around how that
16:29
might look like the business of I am?
16:31
Yeah, I mean, like it's great questions, right.
16:34
And I feel like we, we, we, we made the open call for feedback.
16:40
So level 1. Any feedback you want, send it
16:43
in. I will have your link.
16:45
Your LinkedIn will be in our show notes so people can
16:48
bombard. Your pigeon message in a bottle.
16:51
Sky writing, airplane level level 2 extra gold stars bring
16:58
like an example of your idea, like bring an bring a like it
17:02
could be, I think that we're missing X and if we maybe
17:07
consider doing Y, that might be a way out of it.
17:10
So, yeah, gold stars, if you bring in a recommendation with
17:14
your feedback, that's always great and appreciated to get at
17:18
your question. And as you were talking, I was
17:20
just thinking like I, I, I feel like I get.
17:24
And again, you know, we, this conversation is complementary to
17:29
and and building out in addition to the standard, you know, the,
17:34
the contextualization of standards and of technical specs
17:37
and, and that side of the house. Like what if we had like A and
17:42
yeah, it's a massive effort to curate and write.
17:44
So thank you, Heather, Thank you, thank you.
17:46
All the authors who have, you know, made those contributions.
17:49
What if we also had a bit like an arm of the box that was on
17:56
successful case studies, you know, you, you that started with
18:01
business problems and worked their way through in, you know,
18:05
3 pages at most. Here's the problem.
18:09
Here's the case that was made and to whom.
18:11
Here's a little bit of the key takeaways that happened.
18:14
And then here was the results and here's the success story.
18:17
So like a repository of case studies of business problems,
18:22
how they were addressed, business problem case studies,
18:26
success stories. Don't let me name it.
18:27
Those are too many words in that.
18:29
But I feel like somewhere in there is a is a different a
18:33
different branch on the tree of the body of knowledge perhaps?
18:37
I like that idea because they think we learn from each other.
18:40
And, you know, that's something we've tried to do with this
18:42
podcast is, look, we interview a ton of people, you know, all the
18:45
time, and we're always learning what worked for them.
18:49
And sometimes it's just important to find out what
18:51
didn't work for them, right? People are struggling with the
18:54
same problems or similar problems.
18:56
And, you know, not everyone is 100%.
18:59
You know that like you're going to find the 100% solution.
19:01
But if we can get people 50% of the way there or 60 or 70 or 80%
19:06
of the way through sharing knowledge, whether it's this or,
19:10
you know, a document or something like that, and say,
19:11
oh, OK, here's an issue. I hadn't thought about that
19:14
specific use case or that specific benefit or that
19:18
specific challenge. I think that would be super cool
19:20
to kind of have an area where people are willing to share
19:23
that. Now that does require people to
19:26
share what is working and maybe even not working.
19:29
You know, maybe there's a list of things that don't try this
19:33
because here's why you're going to have a bad time.
19:35
Like we can protect each other from going down a path that has
19:38
already been travelled and is let's say the odds of success
19:42
are unlikely if you go down that route.
19:44
Why not share that you know that that do not do this as much as
19:49
we should say do do this types of things?
19:51
Yeah, 100% the the do do this, the do not do this.
19:56
And and then also, you know, I always have to check myself, you
20:01
know, being As for someone who's, you know, been doing this
20:05
in different, different roles in different lenses for 25 years.
20:09
Sometimes I have to check myself to say OK, it's.
20:13
I've seen somebody try to solve it this way 10 times, and I've
20:16
seen it fail 10 times. And in those ten times there
20:19
might have been different reasons or the same reasons why
20:21
it failed. But at the same time, I always
20:23
check myself to say, look, something might have changed.
20:27
Then on the 11th time, the conditions are different and now
20:30
this might be able to go through.
20:31
And I think that's totally fine. And when I talk with people, I
20:34
do, I say like, look, just so you know, this failed 10 times.
20:37
Here's the different reasons. Maybe it'll work the 11th.
20:40
So I think we have to be open to that too, bringing in those
20:46
different opportunities to learn.
20:48
And, you know, sometimes, you know, even like how this is how
20:52
I sometimes when I use ChatGPT, sometimes it gives me things
20:55
that, that I say, OK, yeah, that makes sense right away.
20:58
Sometimes it gives me things that are outlandish.
21:01
But even when it does that, I'm like, oh, no, I don't want that.
21:04
But I, I, I want something different than that.
21:07
And it helps to clarify the thing that I'm looking for.
21:09
So, yeah, I I think that having a structure where we have a, a
21:13
very, a lightweight and still valuable way to, to capture
21:17
these stories in a readable, digestible way.
21:21
Yeah, love these ideas. So these are all the kinds of
21:24
things, you know, you coined it on the business of identity.
21:28
I think that's a great angle to look at it through.
21:31
And, you know, not only helping us when we're dealing with
21:35
beneficiaries or clients who would be maybe, you know, buying
21:38
these services or using these services, but also as
21:42
professionals within an organization.
21:44
Yeah. How are we getting the budget to
21:45
do the stuff that we need to do? And how can we team up more?
21:49
Let's say I'm an engineer. How do I team up with the
21:51
marketing team or the product team or you know, it's
21:54
fascinating thinking somebody was speaking.
21:55
I was speaking with somebody else and they said, yeah, The
21:58
thing is this. Well, first of all, I talked to
22:01
somebody and they said we're not investing in identity.
22:03
And I was like, OK, we just spent an hour talking about
22:07
fighting fraud and complying with AML.
22:10
And. And so I'm not sure how you're
22:12
not investing in identity. And then, you know, I was kind
22:15
of having a conversation after that and this person was telling
22:18
me, a person was telling me, yeah, the people in fraud, their
22:23
view is we just fight the fraud, that's it.
22:25
And then the people who report the fraud are the AML people.
22:29
So they're just focused on reporting it.
22:31
The the other group is focused on fighting it.
22:33
And the two are not always talking to each other or not
22:37
even often talking to each other.
22:38
So, yeah, how can we help to get at that, both for how we're
22:42
dealing with clients or customers or beneficiaries and
22:45
to how we're navigating these topics within our own
22:48
organizations and working within our own organizations?
22:51
I think, I hope, I believe there's a lot of value in that
22:53
for identity professionals as we look at how does this industry
22:58
evolve in the context of the way technology and everything is
23:02
evolving as a whole. I feel like sometimes I am is a
23:07
little bit of Game of Thrones or West Wing or whatever other
23:10
political drama that you want to throw in there because politics
23:14
play such a big part in identity.
23:16
And I don't know if enough people, I kind of recognize
23:19
that. I know there's a lot of people
23:20
out there that are like, I'm just doing my thing and why is
23:24
politics involved? Hey, it is.
23:26
And I don't mean, you know, world politics, although
23:28
sometimes that is. But I'm thinking more just
23:30
within the organization of how do I get things done is with
23:34
sometimes it's Kingdom building, sometimes it's other things,
23:36
it's personalities, it's, you know, things like that.
23:39
And you have to know how you may not be able to fix it, but you
23:43
need to be aware of it if you can.
23:45
And chances are you're probably not going to fix it by yourself.
23:48
But if you can be aware of it, just think how far along you'll
23:50
be in addressing some of the problems or getting the buy in
23:53
support. Or maybe so like that's another
23:56
area that I think, and I'm not smart enough to be the one to,
23:59
to, to to get into it in detail. But the politics is a real thing
24:03
when it comes to identity. Yeah.
24:05
And on that, on that, on that topic or that lens or that
24:10
flavor a little bit, you know, something else that I've been
24:13
spending time sort of similar, just really trying to take stock
24:18
of this industry as a whole and build out some insights around
24:22
it. And what is the what is the next
24:24
chapter to 2030 look like you're 2030 from here.
24:28
And something else that I've been thinking a lot about is
24:31
sometimes I think what I, what I'm going to talk about is
24:35
building bridges. Because when you're talking
24:37
about Kingdom building and what not, it triggered building
24:40
bridges. Because the other thing that I'm
24:42
kind of seeing and looking at is I think some audiences and maybe
24:47
just humans in general, but some audiences really kind of either
24:51
they want to or it or just from design, it's like they want to
24:55
flatten the topic identity is this or credentials are very
25:00
flat, you know, like credentials.
25:02
Here's the thing, it's called credentials, OK?
25:05
But at the same time, a credential for a person has a
25:10
much different set of requirements regarding privacy,
25:13
regarding where it needs to be used, its utility and all those
25:16
like there's so many different constraints around a person
25:19
credential versus let's say you've got a credential for a
25:23
product and a supply chain. And that credential needs a lot
25:28
of transparency because it's subject to audit and other types
25:32
of, you know, across the supply chain and it needs a lot of
25:36
international interoperability. So I'm even kind of thinking
25:39
about when we talk about trying to work on language around
25:42
interoperability, looking at using credentials as an example,
25:47
thinking there's people credentials, business
25:49
credentials, supply chain credentials, all these different
25:52
kinds of credentials that have very different requirements.
25:55
And then also layering a lens of something else which is local.
26:00
So your credential at home, how does that work for you?
26:03
What are the needs there versus a national credential and kind
26:07
of what's the lens there and what does that need to do versus
26:09
an international credential, because I think that in the
26:13
content. Now to come back to your point
26:16
in the context of politics, I there is a kind of a story
26:20
overtime of Kingdom building. OK, we've built a Kingdom around
26:26
SAML Saml's terrible. OK, fine.
26:29
Now we've kind of reinvented that Kingdom, but with open ID,
26:33
but it's a lot easier, but that, you know, it has its own bucket
26:36
of challenges and you know, whether you love O author go.
26:39
So standards become Kingdom building.
26:41
And what I'm trying to look at is where are the areas where how
26:47
can we as an ecosystem support pockets of interoperability and
26:51
innovation? Maybe that's maybe that's local,
26:53
national, international, maybe that's industry based, and then
26:56
where and how can we build bridges of trust across those
27:00
pockets of interoperability? But anyway, that all sort of
27:03
feeds back. I think it's like similar
27:04
patterns to you're an engineer, you're a marketing person,
27:08
you're an executive. It's getting these groups of
27:11
people understanding what motivates each of these groups
27:13
of people, and then finding ways for those groups to put their
27:17
strengths into the middle. So anyway, that's another thing
27:20
I'm spending time thinking about recently.
27:23
So I feel like you this is starting to bleed over until a
27:25
bit of more your day job and then I didn't introduce you as
27:27
such, but you're also the President of DIAC or the Digital
27:30
ID and Authentication Council of Canada.
27:32
Did I get that right? You did.
27:34
Thank you. OK.
27:35
You got it. Acronyms are hard sometimes.
27:37
Are some of those conversations that you're having in that
27:40
professional capacity bleeding over into some of the things
27:42
that you see ID Pro needs to start to to think about or
27:45
tackle or challenge? I would say yes, yes.
27:50
I think that the when I look at the space for identity and then
27:57
I'm even when you say IAM, you kind of start to mean a certain
28:00
thing or CIAM you start to mean a certain thing.
28:02
But the, the space around this industry for identity, I think
28:06
there are a lot of common, common challenges and
28:10
opportunities that play themselves out.
28:12
And then kind of where is the, what are the different
28:18
inflection points in different jurisdictions?
28:20
Or what are the different inflection points in different
28:23
industries? And so, yes, one of the things
28:26
that I've been thinking a lot about is, you know, Canada is a,
28:32
is a collection of governments, 13 provinces and territories,
28:36
and then the 14th government being the federal government.
28:39
And we have this basically when you come to Canada, people will
28:44
kind of say it's small enough to get all the people in the same
28:48
room to make decisions to make them happen, which sounds great
28:51
in theory. It still takes work to make that
28:55
happen. And there is a little bit of a
28:58
different context where in the US where you're, so it's so
29:04
distributed with 50 States and then 50 state CIOs and kind of
29:08
all that. I don't know how you wrap your
29:10
arms around that size and shape of distributed governance, but
29:14
yeah, kind of in Canada that's something that's really
29:18
pronounced is these different levels and these different
29:20
layers. And what I'm trying to work to
29:24
do through our organization is take a very neutral is one word,
29:30
but I think inform the neutral at the same time, look at, OK,
29:35
there, there the work that's happening there are provincial,
29:39
let's say, 'cause I'm in the province, there are local needs
29:42
and there are local requirements in, in a province that you're in
29:46
and with local industries that might be trading nationally and
29:50
might be trading internationally.
29:52
And then there are, you know, largely identity is a, is a
29:55
provincial issue in Canada unless you're dealing in
29:58
something that's nationally regulated like finance.
30:02
So you know, you've got those 3 layers and I've been trying to
30:05
think about what are some strategic avenues or strategic
30:09
principles that say, look there, there is a case for local
30:14
innovation, there is a case for national innovation and there is
30:18
a case for international innovation.
30:20
And recognizing how each of these pockets of
30:24
interoperability, how they can be supported in their individual
30:27
context. And then at the same time, how
30:30
bridges can be built across. And that's where like, I think
30:32
it's really again, business problem first.
30:37
But if you look at something like wallets, sorry, I know
30:40
we're all wallet overloaded. But if you look at a wallet as a
30:43
tool, if you start with a business problem, like, you
30:48
know, labor mobility and you say, OK, you know, how could a
30:52
credential and potentially wallets help with labor
30:56
mobility? And then you kind of get into
30:57
the engineering layer. And then I'm like, oh, cool.
31:00
So there's a trust fabric in the EU side and the EUDY ecosystem.
31:04
And by the way, there's not one European wallet either.
31:08
So they're having similar play outs in Europe.
31:11
But but where I'm really fascinated is when you kind of
31:14
have a set of interoperability opportunities in one
31:19
jurisdiction or one industry and then you want to bridge that
31:22
into another industry. And for bonus points, when
31:25
they're on different technology stacks, how can you build the
31:28
bridge across and it has to technically work that bridge.
31:32
But really it's what matters. And I'm sorry, I'll be biased
31:36
here. What matters to me is the trust,
31:38
like the verification. I'm glad you have AW3C
31:42
credential, you know, verifiable credential.
31:44
But if I don't know the processes that went into it and
31:47
that the data is verified and I trust that data, then it doesn't
31:51
matter how technically well formed it is.
31:52
So anyway, that kind of stuff like bridging between those
31:56
communities I think is very is something very interesting for
31:58
Canada. But I would also say a universal
32:01
story for that, that we should all be paying, you know,
32:04
attention to and investigative. You know, I think you hit on the
32:08
key thing that I always struggle with when it comes to wallets
32:10
and you brought it up, so I'm going to get into wallets a
32:13
little bit, but is, is that trust?
32:16
And you know, I think about it from, you know, the US point of
32:19
view, and this is rhyme based and different countries around
32:21
the world have their own points of view.
32:22
But I feel like at any given point, trust is probably the
32:25
biggest thing to overcome because who do you trust?
32:29
What do you trust? Do you trust the federal
32:31
government? Well, at any given point in the
32:33
US, 50% of the population does and 50% doesn't, right.
32:36
And that flips every so often. And then you get into like a
32:39
more of like a, and that's curve like maybe like a macro kind of
32:43
view. And then you get to the micro
32:44
view, which is local. Can I get a mobile driver's
32:47
license here in North Carolina? No.
32:49
Can I do it in Arizona or California?
32:51
And yes, how do we start to get the micros right, the micro in
32:55
the grand scheme of things to start talking to them?
32:57
And do you trust again, do you trust your local government
33:00
versus not? Do you trust banks, Oregon
33:03
finance institutions? Do you trust education like I?
33:09
My concern with this whole wallet concept is we end up with
33:12
so many different wallets. And so now we've just replaced
33:15
an account, an ID and a password or some other identity with, oh,
33:20
that's in my this wallet versus this is in my other wallet.
33:23
And then, and then what you end up with what the one wallet to
33:26
rule them all that is social IDP, which is supposed to be
33:30
sort of like that idea of like one account, right to, to do
33:33
single sign on with. But the trust is such a big
33:35
thing. Like I just, I don't know how we
33:37
get past that. Realistically, I'm going to
33:41
assume the technical underpinnings there, you know,
33:44
is it does it comply to standards?
33:46
Is it, you know, comply with federal regulations or whatever
33:50
may be like those are non negotiables.
33:51
Like it has to be there. Like it's not a viable solution
33:55
if it doesn't do that. But how do you get people on to
33:58
this is such a, an interesting part.
34:00
And you know, for people who didn't listen to it, we had a
34:02
great episode we did a few weeks back while we were at EIC in
34:05
Germany with Christina and Torsten, who are on the German
34:08
side of Sprint working on EDI. And you know, they had a lot of
34:12
really interesting things to say because I, I don't know how this
34:15
works around the world. And the one thing that I wasn't
34:17
aware of is there's an actual financial repercussion for EU
34:21
member states if they don't get this done.
34:24
And so there is actually a financial motive which tends to
34:27
drive compliance. And so I wonder if that's
34:30
something that, you know, I don't know if that exists in, in
34:32
Canada. I, I, I don't think it exists in
34:35
the US, but is that a a, is that the appropriate whip and or
34:39
carrot that needs to be out there to say, look, we just have
34:42
to get this done and I don't know.
34:46
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's, it's, it's always
34:50
carrots and sticks, right. And I guess the on the topic of
34:56
wallets, this is where and, and Heather Flanagan did some
35:02
awesome writing on kind of governance and distributed
35:05
models recently that I thought hit the nail on the head.
35:08
Because something that I've been thinking about a lot is, you
35:11
know, in terms of the pattern, you have centralized systems and
35:16
then, you know, there's a push to decentralization that has its
35:19
benefits. But what often happens in those
35:23
in those very decentralized ecosystems is that quite often a
35:28
some kind of intermediary needs to step in in order to secure
35:33
the secure the security, bring the security, bring the control,
35:36
bring the trust, bring that. I know I'm being really
35:38
recursive there, but often you need some kind of intermediary
35:43
when you want to start doing high value exchanges or high
35:46
value transactions. So I'm like, is it just the
35:49
nature? Because if, if, yeah, everything
35:51
is a disambiguated wallet for everything that you do.
35:53
Now you've just recreated the password problem.
35:55
And this is great. OK, fine.
35:58
But you know, I think there's also, you know, there's hard
36:04
questions as well or hard positions to be taken or work to
36:09
be taken. I mean, I, I also try to
36:11
separate my thoughts on big tech governance at the political
36:16
level, at the government level and kind of their role there at
36:22
the same time. You know, people have already
36:25
have platform wallets in their phones.
36:27
And so what's gonna be different or better and being clear with
36:32
citizens or residents about why they can or cannot put a
36:38
credential inside of a, of a platform of a big platform
36:42
wallet, You know, because I think you, you have to ask if
36:45
you wanted the most adoption, then going the path of the big
36:48
platforms is the one that's going to get you there.
36:51
Does that have global repercussions in terms of
36:54
security and national security, like hard questions to answer,
36:57
right. And we can see pockets of states
37:00
in the US, you know, in the AMBA ecosystem that have gone that
37:04
way. Look, I don't run a country, but
37:07
if if my driver's license came to me, I don't run a province or
37:11
a country or any of those things.
37:13
But if my driver's license had a button and said you could put
37:16
this in your Apple Wallet, I would do that.
37:18
I would do that immediately, you know, but that's, that's me,
37:21
right? And I'm not saying everybody
37:22
should do that. And the other thing to your
37:24
point though, is, is that everyone has and should have
37:29
their own anchors of trust. And so I might feel that I, I'm,
37:34
I've, you know, made decisions, I'm in this Apple ecosystem.
37:38
I have confidence and that that's fine for me.
37:41
Someone else might say, Oh no, I only want to put my credentials
37:45
in a government wallet because I trust the government.
37:47
The next person might say I only trust the bank and the next
37:50
person could say I trust absolutely nobody.
37:52
And someone in there is going to trust their university wallet.
37:55
So there's there's going to be an Edu person in there that has
37:57
a university wallet that they want to trust.
37:59
Anyway, point being is, yeah, the trust anchors are really
38:02
different for everyone. And so how can we?
38:05
This is kind of comes back to why I'm really spending a lot of
38:08
time thinking about building bridges, more connection and
38:12
less the very, very distributed ecosystem.
38:18
My own view, there has to be some elements of centralization
38:22
or connection or bridging to make these tools work and not
38:26
kind of recreate the problem over and over again.
38:29
Fun, fun things to noodle on. This is just how we spend our
38:34
Monday nights. Yeah.
38:36
This is why I like doing this podcast because I'm not going to
38:38
claim to have all the answers. I need a little gym.
38:40
But we can wonder out loud. And so this idea of, you know,
38:45
is it the wallet? And I'm with you.
38:46
If if I had an opportunity to do a digital identity and put it
38:49
into my Apple Wallet or Google Wallet, or maybe I would do it
38:52
too, the problem becomes not everyone else is doing it.
38:56
And so I still have to carry around the physical ID with me,
39:00
right? At some point, hopefully before
39:03
I die, we all have a solution to that where I can go to the TSA
39:07
and get on my plane. And you know, is this an airport
39:10
that does it? Is this an airport that doesn't
39:12
do it right? Or whatever vendor that might
39:14
be? And so I think, I think it's
39:15
important that we put those questions out there.
39:17
And, you know, even if we don't have the answers, let's talk
39:20
about it because again, we can't fix what we don't know about.
39:23
We can't, you know, maybe somebody's already solved this
39:25
and they're like, oh, you know, I have a solution for this.
39:27
Great, bring it to the table. Let's let's pick holes into it
39:31
and see if it actually stands up because that's how things get
39:34
stronger. And I think it also needs to be
39:36
a product that people want to use.
39:38
I mean, let's be honest, you know, digital identity is, is
39:41
not sexy, no matter how much I try to make it.
39:45
It's a product. And like anything else, how do
39:49
we, how do you build a wallet product that people actually
39:52
want to use? That means they have to trust
39:54
it. It means, you know, the security
39:56
has to be, that means the usability has to be there.
39:58
That means it has to be interoperable with everything.
40:01
You know, all that stuff needs to come together and, and
40:04
hopefully we'll get there. Yeah, the 100% has to be
40:09
delightful. Like even even more than just.
40:12
I mean, it has to work, number one.
40:14
Number two, it has to be something you go, oh boy, that
40:17
was easier than what I did before.
40:19
Like, you know, there has to be some benefit out of using these
40:24
tools. And I guess the other thing here
40:26
as well. And we're we're a little bit
40:28
into it here. But you know, there's also the,
40:30
you know, MDL as a whole and the ability perhaps to phone home or
40:35
not much of what we're doing in Federation is already phoning
40:40
home, you know, so I think we've got challenges in that space.
40:45
However, I question or wonder, certainly I do not support the
40:51
con. I do not support a phoning home,
40:54
especially if there's a capability where they're able to
40:57
kind of turn that feature on and you don't know about it and then
40:59
it's happening in the background.
41:00
Absolutely not. Talk about violating trust.
41:03
I mean, that would do it right there.
41:05
No, no, that's, that's not right.
41:06
Now that said, I think it's a complicated issue like no,
41:10
nothing should be turned on in the back without you knowing it,
41:12
which I think is already happening with lots of services
41:15
that I use today all the time. But that said, the other piece
41:20
of that is there are times when I do want audit trail and I do
41:27
want traceability and I do want. And so sometimes that's OK and
41:30
that's something that I really do want, especially if it's
41:32
something of value that I'm exchanging.
41:35
And then the other piece of that too is like on this phone home
41:39
in the spec issue, sometimes I wonder if we're we collectively,
41:45
if there's sort of a a bit of a kicking the can down the line
41:49
because I do. My own view is that a lot of the
41:53
challenges that we are working through within this ecosystem,
41:57
and I'll talk about the personal identity lens for a moment, does
42:01
come down to governments and governments obligations and what
42:07
our ability to control data about us is within government.
42:10
And so, you know, for example, you know, if governments have
42:14
had regulation and it was auditable and they said, no, we
42:18
cannot turn this on and this is regulated and that's, and here's
42:21
how it's audited and we prove that to you, then I feel, you
42:24
know, like a lot better about it.
42:26
If I have that, if that's if that's regulated right at the
42:29
same time similar to that, you know, I'm looking we're we're
42:33
we're almost at open banking in Canada.
42:36
We're going to get there one day.
42:37
We're not there yet, but we're almost at open banking and
42:42
Canada sometimes likes to do this thing where they like will
42:46
rename things. That's something else.
42:48
So, so in Canada open banking is officially I believe called
42:51
consumer directed finance, which is great.
42:54
I don't know why we need to rename things and complicate it,
42:57
but it's called consumer directed finance.
43:00
But that's open banking. But I almost look at if the
43:04
banks are being regulated to do open banking slash consumer
43:09
directed finance. I look at that and I see the
43:12
other window, which is OK, well, there's a piece of data about me
43:17
and our tax authority called my verified income.
43:20
Then government should, it should be citizen directed
43:25
government data. You know, like I should be able
43:27
as a citizen to tell the tax authority I need this data
43:32
wrapped up, lock and key immutable, and I need that
43:35
shared with my bank. We could talk all day about if
43:37
that happens in a wallet or a network or how that happens.
43:41
But that linkage of citizen directed data, I feel like that
43:45
is part of a missing piece of accountability in a lot of
43:48
these. I, I feel like we, it's hard for
43:51
us to tech our way out of something that is a governance
43:54
issue that that also needs to be governed.
43:56
But that's probably because I'm not an engineer.
43:58
I just hang around with them. You know, just enough to be
44:03
dangerous, is the way I like to put it.
44:04
It's like, all right, I can talk at the game, but don't Savage
44:07
sit down and write code. You do not want that.
44:10
No, no, no, so but I, I, I, I'm, I that said, you know, it's
44:16
these are complicated landscapes, right?
44:18
And that's why we have to have conversations like this.
44:21
And, and to kind of bring full circle, that's why we need to
44:23
bring these different windows and these different persona into
44:26
the discussions that we have in this thing called identity,
44:29
which is very, very vibrant tech, governance, comms product,
44:33
the whole deal. Yeah, I think this is, and maybe
44:37
this is my kind of my final point, circling it back to ID
44:40
Pro is I'd love to see more international kind of
44:44
conversations taking place because look, I only know what's
44:47
going on in the US because this is where I live and work and
44:49
spend, you know, 99% of my time. But I feel like if we're able to
44:53
have conversations with our friends in the EU or Australia
44:57
or other parts of the world, right?
44:59
Canada, Denmark, I don't know, Antarctica, right?
45:01
You name it. There's probably similar
45:05
questions and some of them might not have been answered.
45:07
Some of them might have been answered.
45:09
But I think that it also helps if you're really thinking of
45:12
identity as a career is be well-rounded and understand what
45:16
else is going on in the world. I think this is an opportunity
45:18
maybe where, you know, I don't know if this is like different
45:20
Slack channels and maybe they already exist and I just haven't
45:22
dug into that, you know, that deep enough.
45:24
But you know, maybe it's information that how does, you
45:28
know, how does Germany do this versus how does France do this?
45:31
And maybe they're similar, but there's differences because of
45:33
local, you know, regulations or whatever maybe, or maybe just
45:36
local cultural requirements, right, that are different things
45:39
like that. I think that's another area that
45:41
I'd like to see more because I learned a lot when I went to
45:43
EIC, my first time in Germany, my first time at EIC.
45:46
It was a fantastic conference. Highly recommended.
45:49
And I learned a lot hearing, well, you know, what our friends
45:52
in the EU are doing and and beyond around some of the
45:55
challenge that they're facing is like, oh, that's interesting.
45:56
I hadn't thought about it from that perspective and I'd like to
46:00
see more of that. Yeah, 100%.
46:02
Those lenses of information sharing.
46:04
First of all, I love EIC as well.
46:07
I would love to be there every year.
46:09
Unfortunately, that's not the case.
46:10
That said, I love to be there and I'm happy for everyone who
46:13
is there on the years that I can't go.
46:15
So I'm so glad that you went. You got to see that lens of that
46:19
conference. It's a wonderful conference.
46:21
Love to be there. I think of those folks as a part
46:23
of a family that said, yeah, you'll see a lean in depending
46:29
on the jurisdiction that you're in.
46:31
You'll see different liens in on different industries.
46:33
You'll see different liens in on different issues.
46:36
I was having another conversation with somebody else
46:38
this morning and they asked me about kind of how much the role
46:42
of AI and fraud is kind of showing up in our space.
46:45
And we were talking a little bit about NHI and kind of that space
46:50
and you know, and I said, oh, well, you know, what's been
46:53
happening in Canada is because the fraud has been so bad, our,
46:58
it's called FINTRAC, this is our basically our KYC AM L
47:03
regulatory body who is responsible for those
47:05
regulations. Because the fraud has been so
47:08
bad, they've been adding more and more reporting entities into
47:11
that responsible, those entities that are responsible to report
47:16
underneath that regulation. So while I could say yes, yes,
47:21
AI is a is there and very a lot of a lot of focus at the same
47:25
time, we're kind of sometimes at a different place in the runway
47:28
where we're, we're leaning and so heavy into the finance
47:31
regulations and how they expand. And we find now that we've got
47:34
audiences where we're, we're educating and working with loan
47:39
officers at dealerships 'cause there's tons of fraud there.
47:42
And I heard somebody else say, you know, frauds like water, you
47:45
put up a damn one spot and then the water just goes around and
47:48
finds the other spot, right. So while dare I say, well, we're
47:54
having sometimes very privileged conversations about NHI and,
47:59
and, and all the wonky things on wallets and governance and all
48:03
that. And, and in the global lens, at
48:06
the same time, within my work at the Dyac, I'm also dealing with,
48:10
yeah, how do we help educate loan officers at auto
48:13
dealerships and, and how can lawyers verify the identity of
48:18
their clients because they're now, you know, responsible as
48:22
well. And things like title insurance
48:24
and all the fraud that's happening in the real estate
48:27
space as well. So, so you've got to look at, so
48:30
we as a community have to look at both the, we have to do the
48:35
yoga of the big transformational issues and the geopolitical and
48:40
internal political and all that and those issues.
48:43
And at the same time, there are people every day out on the
48:47
front lines in the economy who are getting frauded and there
48:50
are people who are suffering from those frauds.
48:53
And then you say, well, we need to also make sure that those
48:56
people get the immediate solutions, which might be the
48:59
photo ID captures and the document comparatives and kind
49:02
of those layers. And so I really think it's for
49:05
us as a community and us and ID Pro and all these different
49:08
lenses, it's, it's and I heard somebody else talk about a new
49:12
standard replacing another. And The thing is the, these
49:16
capabilities all hang around. It's rarely like A10 to 11TO0
49:20
switch and we're kind of stepping our way through.
49:23
And so we as an industry have to kind of look at my view, look at
49:26
the, the whole chain for how do we help the person today with
49:30
the stuff today? And then leaning into the, you
49:34
know, the, the, the, the national work, the international
49:37
work, the, the, the AI layers. It's, This is why it's a fun
49:41
industry though, right? I mean, there's so many
49:42
different layers to look at it through, so.
49:45
This is why you can't ever really be a trillion expert is
49:48
because it's always something new or it's either something
49:51
new, right? Like AI is kind of the thing
49:52
right now and NHI raise all this stuff, or it's something really
49:55
old. We still have mainframes and
49:57
they still need to be secure and they're still running billion
50:00
dollar organizations off of mainframes. 100%, this is a,
50:04
it's a great example. I love that example.
50:06
And by the way, since it's been said three times, maybe 4, if
50:10
you are the person who took the skills survey and you said you
50:12
are an expert, I would love to speak with you.
50:15
I want to hear more about you, what you do, because I'm sure on
50:18
the Bell Curve there's a lot of people that don't feel expert
50:21
yet, but I'm sure there's some people who said they are expert
50:24
and I'd love to hear their stories too.
50:26
Maybe that's like the next like ID pro game show or something
50:29
like that where it's like, you know, defend your your thesis,
50:31
defend why you think you're an expert and then.
50:34
Now we open. Throw stuff that.
50:35
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
50:37
Yeah, Oh, the identity. Yeah, the identity group.
50:40
Wait, we're a fun. We're a fun snarky punch, so.
50:43
But we'll welcome. You're all well.
50:44
Britney's welcome. It is a great community and
50:46
we're glad to have you to be part of it, Joni, and glad to
50:49
see you, you know, take on the royal chair here for us.
50:51
I like to end shows on a lighter note and we were kind of kicking
50:55
around ideas before we hit record.
50:57
And, you know, to pull back the curtain.
50:59
I usually come up with sort of, you know, a stupid question or
51:02
something at the end to kind of lighten the mood because we do
51:04
get kind of sometimes heavy, right?
51:06
And identities like let's bring back up to the surface.
51:09
And you mentioned that you have a new addition to your family
51:13
and you have a puppy of some sorts.
51:17
And people most like you're going to listen to this.
51:20
And if they stuck around this long, you know, you guys are the
51:22
true heroes and people who who drive this show.
51:25
But tell us about your new puppy.
51:28
Amazing. So yeah, if you made it for the
51:30
bonus part of the episode, congratulations.
51:33
Thank you for being the. Thank you for being a rock star.
51:36
Yeah. So the last few weeks of our
51:39
lives have been taken up with something wonderful, which is a
51:42
new puppy, a new addition. So just to kind of draw the
51:45
circle, we had a German shepherd Husky mix that made it almost to
51:51
17 years old. And he went over the Rainbow
51:53
Bridge in November last year. So we were super, super blessed.
51:57
Kind of took a moment, took a pause.
51:59
We said let's get a, you know, let's take a pause.
52:03
And, you know, maybe the next dog will be like a very calm,
52:07
very calm dog. And you know, like coming off of
52:10
a shepherd Husky mix. So we ended up adopting A8 week
52:15
old puppy on the 4th of July. He's the 4th of July baby boy.
52:20
And he is very, very boring, very lazy.
52:24
He's a German shepherd Rottweiler.
52:26
So no excitement is going to happen.
52:29
They're just going to be lying around.
52:32
No, he's, he's a ball of energy. And that, and this is this is
52:35
wonderful because it's, look, I love dogs.
52:38
The dogs are the best people. Sorry, cats are great people
52:42
too, so don't come at me, Heather.
52:43
No I this. Is a hill you and I can die on.
52:46
Dogs are absolutely the best people 100%.
52:50
Well, I heard a podcast and actually they were saying that,
52:54
don't quote me, but I think dogs have been kind of were with us
52:58
and domesticated for over 40,000 years.
53:00
Whereas the evidence on cats is 10,000 years, which seemed to
53:04
lead into why there are so many different breeds of dogs because
53:08
they've had that 40,000 years, but also why cats are kind of
53:12
quasi domesticated. Like, yeah, they're with us, but
53:15
they're not there to serve us necessarily so.
53:19
You're there to serve them, yeah.
53:21
Totally, exactly, exactly. So no, this is keeping us out of
53:25
the off of the news channels, off of the doom scrolling.
53:29
The whole feed is puppies and training and all of that, which
53:33
I'll take that any day. That's a a wonderful thing to be
53:35
distracted by, especially over the summer.
53:39
So I I'm always happy to see pets.
53:41
They're always welcome on the show.
53:43
Do we want to introduce? First of all, I don't think we
53:45
mentioned his or her name. Oh, OK.
53:49
Well, do you want to do it like a quick not the Jeopardy song,
53:53
but duh, duh, duh. So, so I'm with you.
53:57
I I know you can hear me. You're on headphones.
53:59
You probably won't be able to talk as well.
54:00
But yeah. So you know, we had a dog.
54:03
We I actually have, we have two dogs now.
54:05
We had a third one ours across the Rainbow Bridge in December,
54:09
which kind of sucks, and she was also a 4th of July adoption for
54:13
us. So I have two dogs of my own.
54:16
I have a 10 year old Beagle hound mix and then his name is
54:20
Duncan. And then I have Archie who is a
54:23
foster fail who wakes up with violence in his mind.
54:26
Oh my gosh, get that dog on camera right now.
54:30
OK, for the people, for the people who are listening, this
54:34
dog looks a bit like a Rottweiler and but he's a Roddy
54:37
Shepherd. He's a Shep Weiler, and he's got
54:40
the eyebrows and he's black and rust and he's just the sweetest
54:44
boy ever. He's a sweet.
54:46
That's a good looking, that's a good looking boy you got there.
54:49
He's the first time he's been on a podcast.
54:52
You're a * champ. His name is Champ the last
54:54
night, I'm sure. So Champ Champ is the man for
54:57
sure. He's it looks like he's just
54:58
waking up from a nap there. He is, yes.
55:00
You know what? I thought he was in the crate
55:02
for the whole podcast episode and I came out and he's lying on
55:05
the floor and we still have couches, which is wonderful.
55:09
That is, I remember, you know, crate training and doing all
55:12
that stuff with, you know, our dogs.
55:14
And I spent an entire, the entire month of July in Chicago
55:18
on my front doorsteps just with a leash and.
55:22
All right, Duncan, is, is, Are you ready?
55:25
Let's let's go. And I, I, I took off I think two
55:28
weeks from work to be like, it was like my PTO for the year was
55:31
like, OK, I guess we're getting a dog and, and yeah, that.
55:34
Was I know what you mean, though.
55:36
They get in that phase where you're like, let's walk and they
55:38
stare at you. You're like, no, let's do dog
55:41
things. Does not compute.
55:43
Yeah, that's what we're that's what we're doing now.
55:45
But it's wonderful. Oh, thank you for.
55:47
Kissing, always giving you kisses.
55:48
Yeah. So this is, you know, no offense
55:50
to the rest of our conversation, but this is about the best part
55:53
of the entire show. So I would encourage people go
55:55
on the YouTube channel. We'll have the video here and
55:57
you can see Champ and and Joni and yeah, so.
56:01
We need identity dogs sign. Sign your pets up.
56:04
Do your pets can join ID Pro too as long as they have credit
56:07
cards? They're welcome.
56:08
Well, they have. They have mom and dad's credit
56:10
cards. That's how Tippy with that
56:11
works. There you go.
56:12
Sounds good. Oh, I don't that that wasn't
56:14
official advice from the ID Pro war chair.
56:16
Or maybe it was, I don't know. Yeah.
56:17
You better be careful what we put out there now that you know
56:20
you have this, the specific mantle and scepter that you are
56:22
in charge of now. They're just not verified.
56:25
Verified ID pros that's. OK, I see it all came back to
56:28
trusts and now we can't do that anymore.
56:31
OK, All right, well, Joni, I'm going to let you get on with
56:35
your evening. And Champ, it's great to meet
56:37
you. Welcome to the identity
56:38
community, champ. And I guess you as well, Joni,
56:42
always, always great having conversations with you.
56:44
I'll have links in our show notes for people to check out.
56:46
So you know, your LinkedIn profile again, feedback, Joni
56:50
has said bring it. So let's bring it.
56:53
Be respectful, obviously, of course, but bring solutions to
56:55
like, bring those ideas. Like nobody wants to be like,
56:58
oh, this sucks. OK, great.
57:00
Like what are your ideas to fix it?
57:01
Or do you have ways, you know, bring solutions if you can as
57:04
part of it. I think that's always very
57:06
helpful to say, OK, hey, here's some ideas on it.
57:08
So I totally recommend that. And yeah, like and subscribe to
57:12
all that fun stuff. And Jim and I will keep bringing
57:15
the episodes as we always do every week.
57:17
So with that, we'll go ahead and leave it for this week.
57:19
Thanks everyone for watching and or listening and we'll talk with
57:23
you all in the next one. Thanks so much.
57:25
See you. You've been listening to
57:29
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
57:33
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
57:37
But in the meantime, hit the website at
57:39
identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
57:46
the Center.