Latest / The Bechdel Cast / Tangerine with Kai Choyce, Violet Gray, and Dahlie Belle

Transcript

Tangerine with Kai Choyce, Violet Gray, and Dahlie Belle · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: High Bechtel Cast listeners. This is Gen and this is Caitlin,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: So we just wanted to do a quick explainer at
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the top of this episode. We're doing something a little
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: different this time. UM. We're covering Tangerine, a movie that
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: you know us. We have a lot of blind spots
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: going into analyzing this movie, so we wanted to get
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: a number of perspectives on it. UM, so you will
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: hear not one, but three different guests today. Kai choice
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: is with us for the majority of the episode, but
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: we also have UM analyzes and input from two other
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: incredible guests, Dhalia Bell and Violet Gray. So look forward
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to that. And I guess it's also worth stating that
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: we talked with Um Dahlia and with Violet after the
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: recording of this original episode. Yes, so UM enjoy the episode.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: On the Doe Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: women and um are all they're just gassions, just boyfriends
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: in best start changing it with the Beckdel Cast. Hello
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: My name is Jamie loftus. It's us. This is our podcast.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: This is our feminist movie podcast, where we lead our
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: discussion and our analysis using the Bechtel test, which is
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: a media test made by queer writer Alison Bechtel, sometimes
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: called the Bechtel Wallace test. But Caitlin, it's been a
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks. What is the Bechdel test? Simply don't
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: remember she is? I'll see if I can remember. Um. Now,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: historically we have and many people have used a version
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: of the Bechtel test. That it's funny to use the
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: word historically in as it pertains to us a show
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: that's been on for four years historically though, No, historically,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I see where're going, I see whe're going this than
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: you so much. But like with us, and then also
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: on a larger scale, many people use the Becktel tests
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: in terms of do two women speak to each other?
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: That's what we've always said. Now, in in our ongoing
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: effort to be more inclusive, we are adjusting the way
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: we see the Bechtel test, and rather than two women
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: or two female identifying characters speaking to each other about
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: something other than a man, the version of the test
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: that we are going to use moving forward is two
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: people of any marginalized gender. So that includes women, that
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: includes non binary people, that includes intersex people, that includes
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: trans men speak to each other about something other than
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: a cyst man that says maya, because if there's anything
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: we don't need more of in cinema, says its men. Right,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: So that is our back tests moving forward. Uh, shall
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: we try to make it pass? Okay? Yes, okay, this
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: is a special dystopian edition of Betel Test. Ready, Uh,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: let's run it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie, I don't know why,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: but the National Guard just flew a drone over my house.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Just something terrifying to think about. Um, then we're talking
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: about a drone that's an example of the mental test
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: being passed. Yeah, that is scary. We live in a
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: police state and um fuck the police. Defund the police. Yes,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: if you, if you, if you're pro cop log out, yeah,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: go do some reading. Anyways. Um, yes, I'm very excited
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: for the movie that we're covering today. This has been
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: a long time coming. We've been talking about covering this
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: movie for a long time. Um, but I'm glad we're
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: doing that. We'recovering Tangerine, Yes, we are, and we have
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: a guest with us as always a special guest. He
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: is a comedian podcaster host of Women Who Kill podcast
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: It's Kai Choice. How's it going? It is? It's it's going,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: it is, it is going. That feels like, yeah, it
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: feels like the right. But was that a real That
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: was a real drone? That wasn't a bit that actually
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: happened to you know. I was on the phone with
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Caitlin before you jumped on the zoom call and it
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: was like it became really loud all of a sudden,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: and I looked out the window and there was just
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: a gigantic, like low flying drone just going over my
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: neighborhood that I need to do some googling about. I
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: was like, I thought, are they still here? Like I don't,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but it was very close and very
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I've never seen one in real life me either. Yeah,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: shaken to my core. I mean, hopefully by the time
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: this episode airs, I will know more, but given who knows, Yeah,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: you'll be fine. Keep us posted, Yeah, I will. Were
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: excited terrifying drones aside. We're happy we're here. Yes, like
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: we said, we're so excited to cover Tangerine Kai. What
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: is your relationship with this film. I love this movie.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: I saw this movie for the first time a couple
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: of years ago, and the only thing that made me
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: want to watch it was, well, the plot sounds crazy,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: but also I heard they shot it on an iPhone,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I need to see how terrible
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: this is. And it wasn't. It's great. No, It's like
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I I think that if I didn't know that this
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: movie was shot on an iPhone going into my first viewing,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have guessed it. I would I would have
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: been like, oh, it looks like a d I Y movie,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: But I never would have guessed it was shot on
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: an iPhone. Yeah, I would have thought they just they
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: did something weird to stylize it. I'm like, no, that's
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: that's just how it looks when and that's what you use.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: But it worked. Also, two white guys to guys produced it. Yes,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: that impressed me. We'll talk all about that. But the
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: director of this movie is a white man named Sean Baker,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: and then he co wrote it with Chris Berg Go Brogock. Well,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about that though, because I think that I
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: think that the writing credits of this movie are a
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: little are are a little bit belonged to other people? Yes, yes,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: impro well yeah, and we'll we'll cover this more when
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: we get into this discussion. But the central conflict of
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: this movie, the whole plot, is something that the one
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: lead actor, in particular Katana Kiki Rodriguez, who plays Cindy,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: actually a few things that happened in the movie a
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: few pretty major plot points or like again the whole
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: story are like experience. Yeah, yeah, things that either happened
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: to her or friends of like happened to friends of
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: hers that she just kind of like relay the information
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: to these white sis male screenwriters. And I mean there's
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: there's definitely, like I said, there's a whole discussion to
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: be had. But okay, yeah, the production of this movie
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about other than the iPhone aspect.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: I didn't know much about the production of this movie.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: And there's there there were a lot of twists and
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: turns for sure in production. There's a there's a do
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: plass brother that gets involved. You're just like whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: There's well, Jamie, what's your relationship in history with it?
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: I have seen this movie before. I really really enjoyed
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: it UM the first time I watched it, just because
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: I think it had come to streaming recently and I
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: just wanted to see it because it means like, it's
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: the iPhone movie and it's great, and I was like, okay, UM,
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: and I really really enjoyed it the first time I
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: watched it. UM. I wasn't at the time, I wasn't
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: watching it critically, but I was excited to revisit it
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: for UM for the show. And I guess what, I
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: still love it. It's a really fun movie. Same what
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: about you, Caitlin. Yeah, I saw it it came out. UM.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I probably didn't watch it for the first time until
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: a couple of years later. I think I saw in
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: SEV the first time, and I had heard similar things
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: like they shut the whole thing on an iPhone, isn't
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: that marvelous? But I'm almost kind of like, who cares
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: about that? Like it's such a monumental film for so
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: many other reasons, Um, And it's so fun. It's so funny.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: It's I mean a romp, you know me. I love
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: a good romp. UM. But it's Yeah, I loved it.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I watched it. I've seen it a few times now.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Over the years, and um, big fan. But I think
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: it's kind of selfishly. It's fun because it takes place
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: near where we all live. Oh I know where? Oh cool?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I think I know every driven past, don't a time before.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: But also there there are parts where you're like, you
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: didn't walk there, you didn't walk from there, There's no way.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, I'm cutting two hours later. Cool, So
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: should we jump in? Yeah, let's do the recap. So
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: it's Christmas Eve, It's a Christmas in Los Angeles. It's
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: a Christmas movie, right, it is? Oh, this is good.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: That should be added to the like official holiday movie masterless. Sure.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: And one of many reasons I like this movie is
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: that it's a movie that takes place around Christmas time,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: that treats Christmas like it's just any other day. It
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: kind of sometimes like lighting. I feel like that the
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: main plot of it being Christmas is like some fun
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: holiday lighting and something you're like, but for the most part,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: everyone's just like, I don't really give a funk that
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: it's Christmas. And I'm like, that's how I feel. As
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: the resident um Scrooge mcgrinch of the group, Um, did
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: you just yes? That is what I said, and I'm
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: so sorry, everybody innovating, innovating all over life. Thank You's
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: actually the name of my new screenplay, Um Scrooge mcgrinch,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: The the Anti Christmas Story, The Anti christ Mass Story. Yes,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: it starts. Who does it start? Who does it start? Oh? Um?
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Honestly, if Alfred Molina is not in
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: this movie, I'll pitch a fit. So you belong to
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: somewhere in this universe. I'm assuming it's an expanded universe.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: There's a lot, you know, grant I need. I need
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: at least four movies the un fact. You'll get them.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I'm working on it. Um okay. Anyway, So it's It's
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Christmas Eve in Los Angeles? Ever heard of it? And
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: we meet West Hollywood, specifically in West Hollywood. Yeah, we
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: meet Cindy played by Katana Kikei Rodriguez. And you got
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: to spell it. Yes, it's not the like c I
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: N d y spelling that you might be conte. It's
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: s I N d E last name, last name Rella.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: So Cindy Rella, yes, or is our protagonist's name? You
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: don't call a protagonist. I can do that, though I'm
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: not sure I will. Um and then, um, she is
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: with Alexandra played by Maya Taylor, and they are best
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: friends and they are both trans sex workers. In their conversation,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Alexander lets it slip that Cindy's boyfriend and pimp Chester
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: has been cheating on her with a white CIS woman
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: whose name they're not totally sure of, but they think
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: it begins with the D And this was happening while
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Cindy was gone for the past few weeks, and we
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: found out later that she was in jail for possession
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: of drugs that she was holding for Chester. She was
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: in jail for twenty eight days, right, Okay, yeah, this
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: is actually the sequel to twenty eight days later. By
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: the way, r I p donut time. I know it
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: was a simpler time. It was a donut your time.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: There was a donut your time. Wow, you're not wrong.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Um okay. So Cindy sets off to find this lady
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the Fish the Fish, and Alexandra reluctantly agrees to help her,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: and she's also handing out flyers for a show that
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Alexandra has later that night at Hamburger Mary's at seven pm. Yes,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: this is where the walking comes in. You're just like
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: how do we get here so quickly? Right? Meanwhile, we
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: meet Razmic Rasmic, a cab driver, and we see him
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: driving some people around hill. Is this before? Is this before?
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Is this bu? Is this before? Uber? Or Uber was
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: definitely a thing at this point, it was just kind
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: of new. Maybe wasn't a gigantic threat to the cabin
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: district yet. I don't know, because he seemed busy, right,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: he was always driving, and it was like, yeah, I
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: guess it would have been cab times. I also, I
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: mean this movie was like shot Wait, let me get
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: the exact dates of when this was shot, because it
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: might have been shot like at an even more cab time.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Let me see. Okay, it was filmed at the end
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: of So I feel like that is pretty firmly like
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: before uber really really caught on, right, it was still
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: it was already definitely a thing. But yeah, I don't
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: know if like the widespread adoption of like Uber and
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: lift was it wasn't super popular. But um, Kyle, you
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: said be you, and that provides an opportunity for me
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: to bring up something that I hated to college. Um no,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: that's b why you I went to bust you. Yeah,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and I did get a master's degree in screenwriting. There, Um,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: thank you so much. You're welcome. I did that on purpose.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: I hate to bring it up, but you left me
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: no choice. Um. Okay, So we meet this cab driver
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: and then we cut back to Cindy. She asks Nash
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: played by Ian Edwards, who um as a comic an
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: actor of course, but super funny. Yeah. She asks Nash
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: if he has seen Chester and he tells her to
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: go to a food line where she might be able
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: to get some more information from people. That leads her
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: to Bob, who tells her to go to a particular motel. Meanwhile,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Alexandra starts working. A guy picks her up. They get
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: into a fight because he won't pay her. Yeah, he
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: completely short changes her. Um from the jump, and then
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: the situation escalates because cops get involved. And because this
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: is fiction, the cops are hell of cool. Yeah, the
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: cops don't. They still suck, but they're like, it's Christmas
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: right right, Like I'm going to let this one slide.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And you're just like, okay, really would you do that?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I don't think So it's still fucked up. So then
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: we see we're back to Rasmick driving around cruising. He's
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: looking for a sex worker to pick up, and we
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: learned that he is pretty much only interested in trans women. Uh.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: And then he and Alexander cross paths because he is
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: a regular client of hers. Then Cindy finally finds the
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: woman she's looking for. Her name is Nina, pulls her
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: out of this party room at this motel and starts
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: dragging her part. Excellent, that's such a nice that's a
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: nice way of putting it. I know that motel by
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the way, Wait, where is it Hollywood? And okay, oh yeah,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: I used to drive past there all the time going
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: to Nerd Melt. I used to work at it. The
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: only real job I ever had was a nonprofit that
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: provided services to a lot of sex workers. And everyone
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: knew that that motel is like legit, that's all that
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: motel does is they rent by the hour two sex workers.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And it was it was nice to see that, you know,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: they're still doing business, they're still doing really well. Got
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: some some full frontal male nudity. We see at least
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: one dick. Yeah, it's a it's a scared dick. It's
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: a dick against the wall. And you're like, yeah, she
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: finds Dinah. She finds Dinah and pulls her out, like
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: drags her out by her hair and starts dragging her
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: across town towards donut time, where she finds out that
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Chester is But then she realizes it's a little past
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: seven pm and that she's missing Alexandra's show. So Cindy
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: drags Dina to Hamburger Mary's to get on a buss.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: You never see That's like one small representation thing that
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: I always really appreciate it, but you never see like
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: protagonists use public transit like it's and when you actually
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: see it, you're like people people of course like there,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: but yeah, they they hang out on a real life
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: l a city bus. What a dream and everyone has
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: seen that. You know, if you've ever like taken a
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: bus for more than a couple of days at a time,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: you've you've seen a situation like that, You're like, I'm
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: gonna pretend this isn't happening right now, this is none
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: of my business. Someone is probably in danger, but this
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: is a low key hostage situation. There, it's a hostage drump.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Everyone minded their own business. It was nice, we all
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: got to where we were going. Um so Meanwhile, we
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: see razmake at home and realize that he is married.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: He and his wife has a small child. His mother
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: in law lives with them, so we realized basically he's
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: kind of living this double life. There are Armenian yes, there,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Armenian there. I mean, it is like there are so
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: many elements of this movie that make it like an
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: awesome l A movie because it's so many like underrepresented
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: communities in l A specifically are in the end, it's
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: it's like seeing an Armenian immigrant family and seeing them
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: like actually characterized and not just like in passing is
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: for the amount of movies that take place in l A.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: It's like a super rarity is cool totally um. So,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: he also heads toward Alexandra's show at Hamburger Mary's. Then
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: we see her singing at the show, and then we
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: also see Cindy and Dinah's interactions being a little less
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: antagonistic than they were a little bit. I wanted to
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: see Dina continue to be beaten because the only two
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: white people in this movie are the kind of white
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: people who use the N word because they think it's cool,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and so anytime something bad was about to happen to them.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, bring it more and Chester and Chester. Yeah,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: it's it is wild because there is such a huge
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: build in the movie to you meeting Chester, and then
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: when you meet Chester, you're like what you expect? You're
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: just like, this is who we were. So this guy,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: all right, maybe he has a great personality. And then
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: he doesn't know, doesn't this is who everyone was fighting for,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: right Literally Chester has no idea how good he has it? Right? Yeah,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: their their interactions become a little less antagonistic. They smoke.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Was that is that crap? Me? Okay? Yeah, I don't
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: know drugs? Embarrassing? How do you live in l A
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: and you don't know meth? I don't know. I'm a square.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: It's a cultural staple. It's basically the main thing l
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: A Is known for. So that happens, and then Cindy
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: also fixes Dina's smudgy makeup, so it's like maybe they're
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: starting to be sort of friendly toward each other. The
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: makeup that she fucked up because she beat her until
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: she cried it off. Correct. It's very sweet, it is.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: It is like that. It ends up being a very
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: tender moment where I love the pacing of this movie too,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: where it's just like things are like happening, happening, happening.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: It's a rob We're going from place to place very quickly,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: and then every once in a while you get like
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: to really hang somewhere. And it's not always with the
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: characters that you expect, like I wasn't expecting a longer
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: scene with Cindy and like five minutes in the bathroom, right,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: but but it just feels right, and it gives you
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: a chance to catch your breath and see these characters together.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: You're just like, damn, it's a good movie. M So
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: then they head back towards don't time to link up
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: with Chester. We can talk about how terrible the show was.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's not fair of me to gloss over that. Yes, um,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: no one shows up really to Alexander's show, which as comedians, um,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: we understand. We get it, especially around like the holidays
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: in l A. And if you're like still doing shows,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: you're just like there's four lonely people and they're so
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: into it, and then other than that there's no one
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: and you're just like, uh, you know what I wish
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: they had done? I wish that in the middle of
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: her song they had turned on a blender. You're someone
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: started shaking a drink really hard every time every time
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: someone orders a fucking daker. Who's ordering a dabt? Who
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: and whoever it is then is like heckling from the back.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: You're just like god, right, And then we find out
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: that she had to basically like pay to get stage time.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: We've all I definitely have paid five dollars to participate
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: in an open mic before. But it's an audition, right,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: it's valuable. You're being charged in experience there. I thought
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Alexandra's performance was lovely. I was, it was really sweet
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: and really nice, and I was just I don't know. Yeah,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: it's just like a holiday time show field where you're
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: just like, be so nice if there were people here. Okay.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: So then so they're heading back towards donut time. Meanwhile,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Resume is trying to find Cindy and Alexandra, but he
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: missed them at Hamburger Mary's, so he asks their friends
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: where they might be, and then he also heads towards
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: don't at time. But he lied to his family. He
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: lied to his family and his son. His mother in
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: law is suspicious, so she gets in another cab and
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: hunts him down. So then Cindy, Alexandra, and Dinah arrive
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: at doughnut time and Cindy confronts Chester, who we meet
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: on screen for the first time, about cheating on her
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: with Dinah. Chester is all like, no, Cindy, I love you,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: you or my fiance And then everyone's like, wait a minute,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: what you're engaged? Dinah is heckling the whole time, y yep,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: and then Chester eventually admits to having sex with Dinah
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: and just then um Rasmiek shows up because he wants
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: to spend time with Cindy, but right then his mother
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: in law also shows up and she realizes what Resmuk
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: has been getting into this whole time. So there's a
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: lot of yelling, and then she calls her daughter, Resuk's
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: wife and she shows up, and then there's more yelling.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Woman who owns the donut shop, like why does this
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: keep happening? She keeps she keeps threatening to call the
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: cops um, which again would have in real life resulted
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: in everyone dying. But yes, thankfully the cops never show up.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: That's real. I was like, classic cops. Yeah, it's an emergency, Okay,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: we'll be there in six hours. But anyway, so Rasmus
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: wife is just like, well, you know, sometimes a wife
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: has to look the other way because he is the
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: sole breadwinner. Yeah, exactly. She's like, why did you call
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: me down here? I know, trying to pretend this isn't happy.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Now you have to embarrass everybody, right, But anyway, so
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: it seems like everything's going to be okay after all
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: this chaos has just erupted. But then Chester is like,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, Alexandra is the one who told you
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: that I was cheating Cindy. Well did she mention that
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: she and I had sex? And then Cindy is devastated
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: that her best friend would betray her like that, so
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: she storms off. Alexandra is trying to reconcile, but she's
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: not having any of it. And then she's tried to
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: go to work. Uh, some awful bastards throw a cup
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: of urine on Cindy, and then Alexander runs over and
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: helps her get cleaned up. They go to a laundromat
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: and she knows she washes her off, and then she
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: gives Cindy her hair and then they make up and
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: that's the end of their night, and the end of
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: the movie. Why is Chester the what? Why can can
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: no one do better than Chester? I don't understand, Yes,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: zero redeemable quality because you see these women like knowing
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: their worth a lot, Like throughout the whole movie they're like, no,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: like you have to give me more money, Like I'm
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: not doing that. Like there's a lot of them knowing
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: their word. Not to defend Chester, but and I'm not
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: defending Chester, but there's a lot of strong women who
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: know they're worth who are inevitably like kind of inexplicably
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: with a Chester drawn to forty year old who still
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: have skateboards, right, And you're just like, okay, so this
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: is just this is there's something that you know, like
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Cindy hasn't unpacked where she's you know, everyone has a
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I have a certain kind of shitty guy that I'm
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: to have a chance. It's not the Chester type, but
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I have my Chesters. You know, I've had my share
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: of Chesters. Sure Gus hasn't had a Chester too. Yeah, Well,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come right
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: back to discuss the film. And we're back. So where begin.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: There's there's so much, so many wonderful things to talk about.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Does it make sense to get into some of the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: context in terms of like the production and development of
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: this movie. Sure thing first, yeah, so, so I think
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: that the surprising thing for me because again, when I
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: was watching this movie the first time, I'm I didn't
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: do research on the director. I was just watching it
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to enjoy it. But the director and one of the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: two credited writers on this movie is a director, Sean Baker,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: who is like a white guy who went to n
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: y U. Which I don't know what I was expecting,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: but I wasn't expecting a white guy who went to
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: n y U. And so I think that that is like,
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: that's worth discussing here because I think that this movie
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: is um is and is considered a step forward in
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: trans representation in like bigger, like critically acclaimed films, let's say,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: and then behind it you have this movie wouldn't have
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: been made if Mark Duplas hadn't gotten involved and if
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: this guy, Sean Baker hadn't directed it. So he made
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: movies before. I think this was his first like big,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: really popular movie, and then he went on to he
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: also made The Florida Project, but same same writing team,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: same director, and same font on the poster even say
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, it's it's nothing. I mean,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know of anything negative about Sean Baker, but
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: I do think that that is something that has come
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: up on our show before. Where um, sometimes in movies
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: that are like pushing forward in some ways, you still
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: have a lot of the old guard, let's say, behind
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: the camera, which kind of which sucks. Like you, I mean, ideally,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: there should be more black directors being able to direct
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: black stories and trans directors being able to direct trans
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: stories and not need, you know, have the perceived need
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: for a white guy who went to n Y you
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: really involved at all. In this case, a beautiful movie
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: was was turned out by it. But that kind of
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: it into what we were talking about a bit at
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: the top of the show, which is the writing process.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: And once you find out that like a do Plas
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: brother is involved, the writing style kind of all comes together.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: You're like, okay, so yeah, You're like, okay, so this
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: movie isn't necessary like it's written and it's not written
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: because that's a very like do Plas brothers. They're the
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: they're the mumble core kings whatever, and it seems like
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: this movie had a very similar approach to writing. So
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: my understanding, based on just the production history and on
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: interviews I read at the time that the movie was
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: coming out, was that Sean Baker did not wasn't ingratiated
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: in the communities he's portraying in these movies. He is.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: He was just kind of a guy who made movies
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: and was looking for stories to tell and lived in
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: West Hollywood and so was aware of the sex worker community.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: He was aware of the trans community, but he you know,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: obviously he didn't have any experience there himself. And so
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: he started to um talk with the two women who
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: eventually started this movie, uh, Katana Kiki Rodriguez and Maya Taylor,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: and through Caitlin you were saying this earlier, but through
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: talking with them, getting to know them, uh, spending time
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: with them, sort of discovered the story that seemed right
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: to tell through talking with them, and like you were saying,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of the major plot points in this movie
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: are based on the experiences that either they or their
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: friends had had. Because they are both former sex workers,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: they are both trans women, they like very much lived
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: this experience their characters are depicting in the movie, which
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: On one hand, it's amazing that you have trans characters
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: played by trans actors, which is unfortunately historically in Hollywood
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: pretty rare. Red Maine, I feel like he still hasn't
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: had to answer for that. Oh for the Danish girl.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Um and the fact that, yeah, I mean they are
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: black trans women. They have this experience of being former
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: sex workers. It's there kind of real life story that's
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: being told through this movie. That again was as far
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: as the credited writers go, is these two sis white men. Yeah,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: it's a really long way of getting to the fact
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: that Keiki and Maya should based on everything I've read
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and seen about this movie, they should be credited as
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: writers of this movie just as much, if not more so,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: than Sean Baker and Chris berg BERGA sure how to
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: say it? Question mark? Who's this? Chris guy? Who is?
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: There's no Wikipedia? But this is also in addition to,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: like again, major plot points being lifted from their lived experiences. UM.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I also read that a lot of the dialogue that
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: was written into the script got basically altered, improvised, adapted
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: to be more authentic, to be more authentic, right, So
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: it was the actors sort of rewriting the dialogue, I
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: could tell that Chester's lines were written by a straitcist,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: like that that was written on a fucking MacBook Pro.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Those lines right there. Final, Yeah, it's true, And I
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, when you when you know that going
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: into watching the movie, the viewing experience is it's still
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: a wonderful movie, but it's a little different because you
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: can hear those written scenes in there, like under this
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: like very authentic, like natural feeling dialogue from Kiki and Maya.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: And I was also saying reading and hearing in the
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: interviews that they gave around this, the Kiki and Maya
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: were also really instrumental in like constantly reminding Sean Baker
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: and pushing to make the movie funny and to make
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: it a romp. And they're so funny. They're so naturally funny. Yeah. Sure,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Like their line readings were ridiculous. It's hilarious, so perfect,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: and it seems like and I think that a tendency
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: a lot for white filmmakers telling non white stories is
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: to just it's depressing and it's like framed as tragedy,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: and even though there are sad things that happen inside
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: of this movie, it doesn't feel like a weighed down,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: tragic story, and that sounds based on all the interviews,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: it sounds like that is directly due to Kiki and
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Maya pushing for that. So there, I cannot find a
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: reason other than Hollywood being an asshole that they're not
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: credited as writers right on this movie. So to speak
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: to that a little more. Um. This is a quote
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: from an article in The Guardian where it says quote
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: the filmmaker admitted that his approach would have been more
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: downbeat and dramatic had Rodriguez not put her foot down. Um,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: looking back, he realized how right she was. She was
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: asking for something that would present these characters to mainstream
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: audiences in a pop culture way so that they could
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: identify with them. End quote. So then pay her for that.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Like it's just it's so annoying when people pull this
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: ship and continue to pull this ship because m yeah,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: I mean it seems like they wrote more of the
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: story than he did. I know, He's like, eventually I
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: realized that, you know, she was kind of right about
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: like how the story that she basically created should be told,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: you know, like she had she had good instincts, I guess.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: And He's like yeah, I'll put my name on that. Sure.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: It's just like Jesus Christ there, and it's so many
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: things at once because I just like it's frustrating because
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not trying to suggest that Sean Baker
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: is a bad person, and I think that he made
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: a lovely movie, but it just doesn't seem like Kiki
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and Maya are adequately credited for the amount of influence
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: and work that they did and had over this movie
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: that the actors made it totally. And yeah, especially because
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: like a writing credit would have meant that they got
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: more money, they would have been paid more and and
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: things like that, they could have been nominated for writing
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: awards like there. And another thing that this movie I
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: think was like considered as like a milestone that Tangerine
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: pushed forward was some of the first Um, the oscars suck,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: so of course they slept on it, but um, some
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: of the first like acting nominations for trans women were
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: because of this movie. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean there
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: there is a lot of if not first, um, some
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: of the best in recent memory progress for for representation.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: But it's still just the fact that at the end
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: of the day, it is credited basically exclusively to white
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: guys behind the camera is disappointing and frustrating, and it's
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: like I wish I could say I were surprised. Um,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering how much anyone got paid on this though,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: because it was the Boy. They shot it on three
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: five s right, and they edited it and I think,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: just like I movie, probably no, it was it was
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: super I mean, it seems like they used equipment that
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: they already had to make it. But even that aside,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: it's like they still have a whole crew they have.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of performers in this movie, and you
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: have to imagine they're not making a ton of money
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: to do it. And it's like Mark Duplas, you have money,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: come on, Mark, sir. In any case. Yeah, Well, something
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: that has been coming up for us a lot is
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: we want to encourage people from all backgrounds to be
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: inclusive in the writing. And we've been saying again this
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: more often more recently. But you know, we we're not
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: saying that a white ciss man couldn't make a great
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: movie about black trans sex workers. Because we saw that
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: they did that did happen? And um, I have a
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: quote here from another article entitled What Tangerine taught Hollywood
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: about how to tell trans stories. From the publication them
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: quote to craft a story about a world with which
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: they had little experienced, director Sean Baker and his writing
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: partner Chris Berg um new when to ask for help
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: right away. The humility demonstrated by Baker and Berg in
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: copying to a lack of knowledge about their intended subject
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: upfront is essential for any syst filmmaker who wants to
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: incorporate trans themes or characters into their work. All and
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: the quote there, and we'll post this article because I
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: think the whole thing is worth reading. But um, that's
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: what we always say, like, do your homework. You can
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: represent communities responsibly even if you do not belong to
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: that community. It is going to be much harder for you,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: and it will take a lot more homework. Um. But
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: I guess and I don't want to, but it must
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: sound like I'm giving these guys too much credit. But
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: the bottom line is, yeah, definitely that like these two actors,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: the lead actors in this movie should have been given
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: far more credit in what they contributed creatively to the movie,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: way more than they were. Yeah. I mean it's like
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: if you're doing your homework, that is critical and important,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: but you also need to like give credit where credited
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: is due. And that's not just in interviews. It is
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: also something that you do financially, and it's something you
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: do by like using your own influence to continue to
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: like provide a platform and provide Like it's just I
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Sean Baker is more on the right track than I
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: think a lot of sins white guys are. But it's
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: still the fact that I'm just like they should have
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: been paid more, they should have been credited more, and
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: because like this movie was nominated for a lot of
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes stuff too, and and and they should
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: have you know, gotten a cut of that as well.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, what have they done after this? Uh?
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Not too much? And for intunately that this is um
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Kiki Rodriguez is only film credit, and Maya has been
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: in a few other things but mostly short films. And
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: then she's in a movie called Stage Mother that came
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: out this year that has Jackie Weaver and Lucy Lou
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: and Adrian Grenier. I don't so so she's she's she's working,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: but it but Kiki isn't as much And I feel like,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: that's something too. It's it's the fact that Sean Baker,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: you know, gets to kind of use Tangerine as a
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: springboard and go on to make The Florida Project, a
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: movie that I mean, I haven't seen it. I know
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: it's well regarded, but a movie with a larger budget
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: and a movie like he was able to leverage Tangerine
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: into more opportunities for himself. But what about the women
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: whose story he was literally telling with Tangerine, And did
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: they get left behind in in an unfair way? And
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: and what meanwhile, this white guy gets to use their experience,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: however well told, as a springboard for his own career.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Yuh um. This is a good time to cut to
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: our next segment with another one of our special guests.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: She is a stand up in improv comic, a dungeon master,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: and sometimes freestyle rapper. It's Violet Gray. Hello, Hello, thank
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: you so much for having me, Thank you for being here.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: So more or less, we just wanted to hear your thoughts,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: specifically on the representation of black trans women in the
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: movie Tangerine. Sure, so, I was just telling my partner
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: that my position on this has evolved quite a bit
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: because if you had asked me fifteen years ago what
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: I thought of the representation of black trans women in
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: the movie Tangerine, I would have talked about this uncomfortable
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: consistency in portraying black women and black trans women as
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: like drug addicted prostitutes. But since then, in the last
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: fifteen years or so, I've really evolved on what it
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: means to be a sex worker and what it means
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: to have addiction, and um, I would say, there's nothing wrong,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: there's nothing shameful about being in the sex industry. And
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: one thing I did like is that I mean, there
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: was a scene where they're using drugs, they're smoking crack,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: and it didn't happen until much later in the movie,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: and I thought that was good because it established them
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: as humans. First, they're not drug addicts, they're humans who
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: do drugs um uh and and it took them out
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: of this archetype. I liked both the characters. I understood
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: that that in ironment is is some people's realities. I
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: was thankful that they were humanized the way they did.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: I saw a lot in the movie that reminded me
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: of myself. So there's a scene where she where Cindy
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: is in the subway train and she is looking out
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: of the window. I don't think a lot of people
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: realize that if you're a trans person, that can be
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: a sort of defense mechanism, because you're pretty much locked
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: in a box with complete strangers for a while, and
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: when you're looking out the window, they can't see your
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: face and they can't see your features. Yes, so I
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: guess that there's something to be said about how black
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: trans women are consistently portrayed. I do think there is
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: a conversation there, but I also think that hey, sex
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: workers and people who have substance of these issues are
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: humans too, absolutely, and I think ultimately this movie was
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: more about friendship and adversity than any of that. Definitely,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: to speak to the um SO, I was just talking
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: about how just last night, at the time of this recording,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: this documentary just came out on Netflix. But the doc
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Disclosure that um Laverne Cox, among many other people, executive produced.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: They touch on this specific thing in the documentary about
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: how the representation of black trans women, especially in media,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: that they are depicted as sex workers pretty disproportionately, and
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: there is an acknowledgement that there are statistically many black
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: trans women sex workers. But as the documentary Disclosure points out,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: there's usually a failure in movies and television to examine
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: why that might be, which is that the unemployment rate
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: for black trans women is very high because of discrimination,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: and many black trans women have no choice but to
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: turn to sex work because no one will give them
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: a job. Absolutely, yeah, there's always a failure to acknowledge
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: any of the systemic reasons why black trans women might
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: be sex workers. And it's just like, well, that's just
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: what black trans women be, and right right, as if
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: when everyone was going to elementary school and one person
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: wanted to be a police officer and the other person
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: wanted to be yea, yeah, no, no, no, little kid
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: is in it. And when people want to know about intersectionality,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: black trans women are might go to example because it
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: is the intersection of being a person of color and
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: being transgender as an example. But yes, I do think
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: that a lot of people, especially people who push this
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: uh personal responsibility narrative as if it's a false dichotomy.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: It's an either or you're either taking personal responsibility for
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: your situation or you're blaming external factors, as if external
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: factors can't possibly be responsible, at least in part for
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: for your current situation, whatever that situation. Maybe, But yes,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: I think what most minority groups need above anything else
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: in film representation is to be humanized, and I think
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: that Tangerine did do a good job of that. Yeah,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I'm also curious of UM going off of Tangerine a
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: little bit, what would you like to see more of
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: in terms of representation. What is UM something that you
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: would like to see more of that that isn't quite
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know that isn't quite in the mainstream yet
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: as far as black trans women, or just in general,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: as far as like Okay, so, one of my favorite
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: sci fi books, and one of the stories that I
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: point to as one of the best representation of a
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: trans person is a book called The Fifth Season by N. K.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: J Emison, And there's a trans character in there who
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: you don't find out is trans until two thirds of
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: the way through the book. But until then, mostly what
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: you know about her is that she's this sort of
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: terminally curious mad scientist. She sees a new thing and
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: she's like, how does that work? I wonder what the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: technical applications of this are. Maybe if we put this
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: thing in it, we could do this thing. And she
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: comes from a well to do family, but she is
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: pretty much exiled, not just because she's trans, but because
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: she was supposed to be the man of the house
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: who was supposed to marry you. Well, and she's like, well,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: I can't do that because I'm a woman. I can't
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: be what you need me to be. And so I
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: really liked a story where a trans person her transness
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: is not her defining trait, but at the same time,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: it doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist. So when you're saying, like,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: what would I like to see more of, I would
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: like to see more things like that acknowledging someone's transness
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: without it being the defining trait for sure. Yeah, that's
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: a balance that it seems like Hollywood, at least, even
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: though slow and slight progress is being made in terms
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: of trans representation in Hollywood, it seems like still so
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: many of the stories or storylines and shows or whatever
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: are still very much contingent on well, this is a
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: trans person and that's the thing we know about them. Yes,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: that there was a controversy about a video game. I
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: believe it was one of the Boulder's Gate or Ice
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: wind Dale Games, and um, there was a trans character
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and it got criticized for poor representation because the trans
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: person disclosed their transness, their trans status. They mentioned it
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: in like the opening sentence of meeting the character, the
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: main character, So it would be the equivalent of going
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: up to someone it's like, Hi, Caitlin, nice to meet you.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: I'm trans, so anyway, um and so yes, yes, and
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: so they were like, you know, yes, there is something
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: to be said for It's it's evolving, is the point
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: that I'm getting at. And so you have trans characters
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: and games now that aren't so in your face, but
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: but it's it's like, um, do you remember Atari, Remember
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: how it was originally blocks and now the PlayStation five
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: it is coming out and it looks damn near like
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: real people. Right. I think dialogues we have a sort
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: of the same progression. I like this metaphor. Yeah, it's
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: like this is this is good ship? Uh yeah. I
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: think that they're still figuring out. And me being having
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Gothic tendencies, I don't usually lean toward optimism, but I
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: think that I think that they're they're working it out. Yeah,
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: And that's a lot of what that that documentary Disclosure
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: is about this sort of slow evolution of trans representation
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: in media, and how for decades and decades it was
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: all about transphobia, trans panic, just all of the really
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: harmful things that misrepresentation of trans people does for individuals
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: as well as culture at large, and how it's really
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: only been in the past like maybe five years, that
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: there's been any kind of headway made in terms of
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: progress towards more empathetic and positive representations of trans people
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: in popular media. I think that once the Internet came out,
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Once we had the Internet, it was a rap because
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: knowledge is the bane of ignorance, and now with the Internet,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: we can just know things at such a rapid pace.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: A lot of people can know a thing very quickly,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: and so I don't really think that there would be
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: a discussion of intersectional feminism at this rate, or Black
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Lives Matter or trans issues without the information age that
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: we now live in totally and we would, I mean
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: we What we were talking about in the episode is
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: it's it seems like Tangerine is a good step in
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: the right direction, But I hope in a couple of
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: years we're at a point where it's like a sci
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: fi story with a trans protagonist, that would be fucking incredible.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: And just like you were saying, just you know, centering
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: the story on a trans character in a way that
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: isn't like and this is what trans representation is. It's like, no,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: we're in a sci fi world with a trans character, right. Absolutely,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: the normalization is still something we need to normalize. If
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: that makes any sense. Yes, it really makes you think.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a process, but it's something we'll
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: just have to keep working on. Because I remember watching
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: a documentary on the representation of black people on the
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: screen back when they were black and white movies, and
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: there was a time when if a black person was
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: on the screen for a couple of seconds, black families
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: would call out to everyone in the house and say,
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: look a black person on TV. And they would all
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: run to the TV to watch the black person on TV.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: And this was before say Living Single or The Cosby
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: Show or What's Happening or Family Matters, and so yeah,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: I think most groups, probably when it comes to representation,
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: uh go through this process as we talk about on
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: the show. Often representation will kind of come in waves
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: or there will be stages to it where First of all,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: any marginalized group will be more or less just erased,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: pretend that they don't exist in media. Then there will
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: be an acknowledgment of their existence and an inclusion of
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: it on screen, but that that representation will be horrifying, racist, transphobic,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: you know all yeah, just like really damaging. And then
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: when we when you know, enough people realize that that's
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: not good, then there will be more progress to something.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: And then and then that's what injurin even is like
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: that very particular sub step that we've noticed where it's like, Okay,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: we're going to center this story on black trans women
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: in an authentic way. The director is still some random
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: white guy who went to n y U. But you know,
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: it's like the story is still not like given to
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: the people who need to be telling it. So it's
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: like a step like inching inching, inching forward. Yeah, a
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: lot of people don't know that the writers for Good
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Times were all white, Oh wow, yeah to begin with.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, yeah, that is definitely a process that
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: it was the source of some tension between the actors
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: and the writers sometimes, I'd imagine, so yeah, but yeah,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: it is, it is part of the the evolution something
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: that I think most of us believe in. Yes, yes,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: but yes, but um but yeah, I do think it is.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: It is one of the things that is part of
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: a normal process, the no representation, then really bad representation,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: and then small stepping stones, and then someday, hopefully very soon,
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: we have just no one could take any issues with
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: the representation that we see because it's at a place
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: where it's positive and good and yeah, a sci fi
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: expanded universe, right and that and that will come with
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: trans people being the ones to tell their own stories.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. I look forward to the day when when
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: the country can hate a trans villain because she's a douche,
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: right and yeah, and not because she's like a weird
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: trophy murderer. Yeah. M hm um. Do you have any
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: other thoughts, any other things you'd like to share in
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: terms of Tangerine specifically or representation in general. One thing
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: that I thought was particularly poignant about Tangerine, and I
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: think this is true of many minority groups, but I
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: think trans women and trans women of color in particular
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: is so. Towards the very end, she found out that
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: her best friend cheated with her boyfriend, and she was like,
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: too angry to be angry, too angry to be angry,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: and she's trying to walk away, and then she's a
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: victim of this hate crime. And then Alexandra takes her
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: to the laundromat to get cleaned up and gives her
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: her wig, which is wow, which is a major gestre
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: And one thing I thought was very poignant was about
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: how to some extent marginalized people have this bond because
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: they have to because the at the end of the day,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: the rest of the world is against marginalized people. And
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: um I thought that it ended on a note that
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: expressed the value of sticking together and being there for
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: each other. Well, Violet, thank you so much for taking
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: the time to chat with us. Thank you so much
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: for having me. It was so much fun. Give us
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: your plugs, your social media handles. Where can people follow you?
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: And oh sure on Instagram I'm Chaotic Violet. You get
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: to see all my weird Renaissance Fair costumes. And on
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Twitter I'm Violet Silver. And this Monday, I'm going to
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: be on the butter Boy comedy Zip show. Yeah with
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: a partner punches. Yeah, that is where you can find
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: oh Violent Gray on YouTube and yeah, that's it. Incredible, amazing,
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, so much for joining us, Thank
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: you for having me. Wonderful. Yeah, let's take a quick
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back for more. Um, we're back,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: We're back. And another thing that I love how this
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: movie like chose the line of you so often see
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: like characters defined by their own trauma. Like, I think
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: that that's a lot of like when sis hat white
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: guys are writing outside of their own experience, and when
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: like a lot of like when any writer is writing
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: outside of their own experience, I feel like it is
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: a really lazy writing tactic to lean on defining someone
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: by their trauma. And I think this movie, for the
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: most part, toes the line really well of portraying that,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: like there are very very real struggles that these characters
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: are encountering. We find out that Cindy was just put
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: in jail it seems like for not a good reason. Um,
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: And and the kind of looming presence of the cops
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: that never fully explodes, but it's always there, like you
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: you see the unfair ship that they have to deal with,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't dominate the story in a way that
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: defines them. What defines the story is how you know,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: it is primarily like Alexandra and Cindy's friendship, which is
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: so like fun to see and that that's a whole
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: journey as well. And yeah, it's also I mean, the
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: characters themselves, many of them are not I guess, for
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: lack of a better term, woke. Like there's there's slurs
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: that I know, there's you know, there's reductive and offensive
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: name calling that gets thrown around. There's I mean, a
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: large component of the story is Cindy being pretty violent
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: toward another woman and not holding Chester accountable enough perhaps
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: for cheating and really and targeting the other woman, you know,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: which is a thing that always you know, dings are
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: little bill. But at the same time, like I I
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: give all of that a past just because again that
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: that these characters feel. So I'm like, yes, that would
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: probably happen. And of course this Dina is such an Dina,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, and she she has her own like sub
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: story as well, but like when you meet Dinah, she's
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: such an antagonistic asshole, like you know it it doesn't
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: necessarily justify the violence against her. But I also it's like,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know that Cindy is already upset. Uh Dina
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: does not approach the situation in a way that does
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: remotely like cool or calm or anything, and so I
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: feel like it's justified in story of like, you know,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: particularly when you first meet her, before you get those
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: like more tender moments and you get more context for her,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: You're like, oh, I get why Cindy is like pissed
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: at at at this lady. But also as as shitty
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: as all the men are in the movie The Men,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: you never really get the feeling that any of the
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: women are actually threatened by them, though in real life
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: that might not be the case. Um in the film,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: you don't. You don't get that impression, right, that's true,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, with Alexandra's um client early on, where
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: he only has forty bucks and he's like trying to
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: short change her and like she's she has none of it,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: and it ends up like if the situation flares up,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: but eventually it's fine and she has control of the situation.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: She gets her forty bucks, right at least, I forget.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think she ever does she not because the
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: cops in fear. Yeah, but then she she does meet
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: up with Resumek, who gives her money, but resume is
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: also um, it's complicated. Yeah, but that's I mean right.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: And then also, like I wanted to mention that even
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: though Cindy is literally dragging Dina by her hair and
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: being violent towards her and all this stuff, I can't
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: speak from personal experience, but I have to imagine that she,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: as a black trans woman, would feel very betrayed by
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: Chester cheating on her with a cis white woman. And
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it, Like I'm not
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: necessarily pro her hitting Dinah, but I don't know, I am.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: I totally was, Yeah, if anyone's going to do it, it
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: it should be her, right, right. It feels like it's
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: not it's not it's not really abusive. Yeah, She's just
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: she was betrayed and they were having fun. It just
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: looks it looks like it looks good. They smoked myth together.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: It's fine. It is. It's like different rules. It's so
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: because it's like not not to excuse a kidnapping, but
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: it seems like a pretty light kidnapping because because by
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: the time they're on the bus, like even Dinah is
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: kind of like joking about it. She's like, oh, can
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: I pick up my hair tie, is that okay, I'm
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: still your captive, But like, can I put my hair back?
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: And Sandy's like, yeah, fine whatever, and it's like, okay,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: this is a very friendly kidnapping. They go to a
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: show together, they you know, it's um yeah. When they
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: went to the bar and the door guy said she's
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: she's only got one shoe, she said she's from the hills,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: She's a hillbilly, and the door guys just like sure, fine, whatever, great. Yeah.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, I keep having to remind myself that, like,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: these are people whose survival instinct and is just like
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: survival mentality is so much more heightened than mine needs
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: to be because of my privilege, Like I don't need
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: to be out on the streets where the risk of
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: danger and violence against me is much greater. So I
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: have to remind myself, like, while I wouldn't drag another
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: woman out onto the street by her hair, like I
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: am not put in danger every day. Also that the
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: stakes are a little higher when you consider that going
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: back to jail for either of these women most likely
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: means being put in a jail with men, right, very true,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, And and the fact that that
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: that even though they're not credited as writing it, the
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: fact that Maya and Kiki are writing this story from
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: their own experiences. You know, they're presenting true experiences and
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: they're presenting it in a way that is very fun
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: to watch. And I mean, yeah, that's why the movie
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: is good, Like it's it's because of them and their
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: performances and their input and there lived experiences that get
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: adapted to the screen. Like yeah, that's why this movie
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: was a success. And it's like, let's be honest, if
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: we had just let Sean and Chris like, yeah, guess
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: their way around what the relationship between Cindy and Dinah
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: would be, they would have gotten it so wrong, like
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: it would have been recoiem for a Dream with a
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: song exactly. It would have just and and so yeah
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: everything and this movie that it just that you're just like, oh,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: I don't but it's like it's they're they're telling their
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: own story in an authentic way and it's based on
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: true experiences, and it's just like okay that that it
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: is what it is like they're they're telling their story.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: M hmm. Now it was a good time to cut
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: to our next segment with another special guest. She is
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: a comedian, a writer for The Portland's Mercury. She's an
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: associate producer of the Portlands Queer Comedy Festival. It's Dhalia Bell. Welcome,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: having me. Of course, of course, so we just wanted
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on the representation of black trans
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: women in the movie Tangerine specifically, and then if you
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: had any other thoughts on trans representation, black trans representation,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: the intersection of those things in media in general. Yeah.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: So um, to be entirely honest, I did have to
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: go back and watch the movie about two nights ago,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: and yeah, it did not wrote me. Well, I will
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: say that, And I really had to do some personal
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: soul searching because you know, initially I'm like, am I
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: so puritanical or am I so caught up in respectability
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: that I'm opposed to the representation of a black trans
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: women as sex workers? And I thought about that and no,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: I'm absolutely not. And quite honestly, many of my friends
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: are full service sex workers. So I'm like, no, that's
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: not my issue. Is even necessarily the drug use, I
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: would say, No, I do understand where drug use does
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: play a role in both trans culture and the broader
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: queer culture. Um simply you know, being stuck in situations
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: where we're trying to find ourselves, and in many cases
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: I've been a pro drug advocate. However, the representation I
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: feel is very sloppy and relies on some very familiar
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: troops that I think, generally speaking, representations of trans women
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: are guilty of. For example, the image of so First
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: I do want to come in the movie for casting
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: what I would say are realistic, average looking trans women,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: as opposed to even a program I love like Pose,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: where you have the obviously over glamorized methods that people
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: want to see, but all the same, I feel it's
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: a very messy image of trans sex workers. It kind
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: of paints us as buffoons, sort of the old step
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: and fetch it. Addition, then the trope of you know,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: fighting over the affection of some ne'er do well sis
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: male you know, yeah, exactly, like why is that always
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: our ultimate prize? You know, like surely there's nothing else
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: that trans women could possibly want than some random CIS losers.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: And that is putting it nicely, honestly, Like chester Chester sucks. Yeah,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: he's garbage. I mean, I I I speak only for myself,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: but honestly, I think I speak for a lot of
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: especially contemporary trans women, when I say many of us
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: do ultimately embrace what appears to be exclusively lesbian lifestyles
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: or ways of being or identities, because our experiences with
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: six men are so negative and at a certain point,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: you feel like, is this worth my time? Is this
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: something worth chasing after? And that's a question that's never
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: really raised in any depiction of trans women that I
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: have ever seen. There's always this element of us longing
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: for the affection of this class. I I don't know why. Yeah,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: I totally see your point. The first I've seen this
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: movie a few times now, Um, I love it. I
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: think it's such a long romp, And of course I'm
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: coming at it, you know, Jamie and I are coming
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: at it with blind spots, with our backgrounds. So I
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: hadn't even fully considered your point about the kind of
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: buffoonery that is arguably displayed. I always sort of interpreted
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: that is, Oh, but they're fun, and they're they're just
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: you know, they're goofy, and we're seeing like rather than
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: a tragic story, which is how many transnarratives play out.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: We're seeing a fun a fun romp. So that was
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: like always my kind of like, you know, just interpretation
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: of that. But I totally see your point. And I
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: had to look at that, you know, numerous times, because
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: is it inherently buffoonery to have trans performers in you know,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: slapstick sort of roles and to make that argument would
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: be very problematic as well. Um, but I think for me,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: it's a matter of looking at that intersection of black
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: heritage and black history within American cinema and then trans representation,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: and when you really look at the then diagram of that,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: I think there are some issues raised. You know, we
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: were we've been talking a lot about how, I mean,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: the fact that the movie is written and directed by
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: sis white guys as well. Um, yeah, likely you know
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: if factors into a lot of what's going on within
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: the movie that maybe doesn't match up quite well, and
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: how to lead actresses in this movie. We're not credited
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: as writers even though they had a huge influence on
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: what happened in the story, and then ultimately all the
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: credit going back to you know, the the tissue grad
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: um is exhausting So that was the first time you
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: had seen it? Is that right? Is that? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah?
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: And it was interesting. Is My partner is also non
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: binary trans their gender fluid though, but it was their
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: second or third time saying it. And they're more a
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: fan of like queer cinema. So we've been they've been
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: like taking me on this tour of all the queer
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: classics and you know, kind of realizing some holes and
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: blind spots and a lot of the films that a
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: lot of us felt were formative, you know, just because
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: at that time the people that were in the writing
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: room weren't necessarily part of our community. Or even the
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: people in the writing rooms who are part of the
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: community are likely those who fit into a specific narrative
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: that makes That makes a ton of sense. We hadn't
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: even come at it from that angle. That makes a
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: ton of sense. Um, Is there any I mean not
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: to we don't want to put you on the spot,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: but what would you like to see more from in
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: terms of trans representation in in film in general and
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: black trans representation. Yeah, I guess what I would really
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: like to see would be I guess the happy medium,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: you know, the happy medium, even if we're we're going
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: to be represented exclusively as sex workers. You know, I
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: I get why that trope is still useful. Um, but
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: even if we're going to do that, I would like
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: it to be maybe a happy medium between say Tangerine
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: and Pose, where you have these realistic, average looking, perhaps
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: quote unquote nonpassable trans sex workers who are empowered, not
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: necessarily wealthy, not necessarily glamorous, but not being exploited or
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: you know, being reckless or things of this sort, but
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: actually flourishing, thriving. Maybe a montage sort of show where
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: maybe you have the U trans call girl and then
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: you of the trans businesswoman and you know, the trans
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: whatever this dude does, he's a but you know, just
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: allow us to be human being and not just the
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: sort of trout either for cheap laughs or otherwise gratuity
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: or sexualization things of that sort. Absolutely. Yeah, And as
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: we've been discussing, you know, representation is often unless it's
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: representation of like assist white wealthy men who there's an
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: abundance of representation for in cinema. You know, we talked
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: about how there's an evolution in terms of representation. It
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: goes from erasure to negative representation, two steps in the
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: right direction to positive representation, and it feels like we're
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: still somewhere in the steps in the right direction phase
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: in terms of trans representation in film and t and
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: Tangerine feels to me like a good step in the
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: right direction, but maybe not what we want to see ideally,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: especially because the people behind the camera and taking credit
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: for writing the script and things like that are white
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: sis men telling the story of black trans women. Yeah,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know, would you would you agree with that
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: assessment that, you know, Tangerine's a step in the right direction.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: I think it will definitely be included in the cannon
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: long term. You know, I think Tyler Perry still has
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: his place within black cinema. That doesn't mean I'm going
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: to necessarily watch a Tyler Perry movie on purpose. Um,
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: media isn't your favorite? Yeah, you have to spring Tyler
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: Perry on someone get to walk in the room and
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: it's already been on for forty five minutes and you're like,
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: all right, it's too late. Um. Any other any other
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: thoughts you'd like to share? No, I try to keep
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: most of my thoughts to myself. It helps me keep
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: you friends well. Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: This has been so wonderful. Um, give us your your plugs.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: Where can people follow you online? Anything you'd like to plug?
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well I'm gonna behave um. So I think
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: one of the more fun places to follow me is
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: on Instagram at mixed at Dahlia Bell, Mix thing an
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: x dot Dahlia Bell. You could also follow me on
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: Facebook at Dahlia dalis Bell or mix Dahlia Bell when
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: it is my comedy page, which kind of mirrors my Instagram.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: This is way too long of an exploration us. Keep
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: keep going. We want to keep me want to follow
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: you everywhere. Okay, if you follow my personal Facebook page,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: it's mostly my random political rantings and existential dread that
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: I experienced every morning around two am, of course. But
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: my instagram are really cute pictures of me, so that
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: that's really where you should get. What a great balance though,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: of depending on the vibes that you're seeking, there's always
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of options, there's always thank you, Thank
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: you so much again, Thank you you were wonderful. Have
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: a good day. Yeah, thanks again, Dahlia And now we're
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: back with Kai Choyce. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts, feelings, feelings. Yeah,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: I talk to us about your feelings. Kind So I
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: just think everyone should should know that. Um, if you
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: got to go to donut time, you're very lucky. It was.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: They actually have really good donuts there. But it later
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: became a tray host tacos, and then it became a
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: tray host donuts, and now it might be nothing. Sue,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think it's doing very well.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I just I don't see
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: people there ever. I haven't either. I know, I passed
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: there a couple of days ago. No aim that we
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: were going to watch this movie. I was like, goddamn,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: seven years. Seven years makes all the difference. I feel
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: like a lot of a lot of stories that portray
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: sex work tend to use that portrayal to remove agency
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: from the characters and to kind of denigrade the experience.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: And you don't see that happening here. In every situation,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: the women seem to be very in control of the situation,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not that is always the case
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: in real life with these characters. Like even with with Resumek,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: you you don't feel like he's exploiting these women, and
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: the one guy who is trying to exploit someone ends up.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: It ends up, you know, getting this ship kicked out,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: which is sure karma baby, uh yeah. And and and
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: that the story. I mean, the story covers a lot
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: of ground, but every character gets a full arc, And
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: the strongest bond in the movie is the bond between
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: Cindy and Alexandra. And like, I just it's really fun
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: to see, especially like a female friendship that you see
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: have ups and downs and it's not just like a
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: perfectly written like we're best friend, we always get along,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: everything's great, la la la. It's like they disagree with
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: each other every other second, but there is such a
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: clear bond. Maya and Kiki have such strong chemistry um
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: as performers that it just like it just holds the
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: movie together in such an amazing way that I cannot
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: picture two different performers in this movie like they make
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: the movie. I mean they were like good friends in
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: real life too, yes, before they were cast yep. Yeah.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like the the iPhones got more more airtime
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: than they needed to in this Like people talked about
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: the iPhones more than they talked about myan Kiki is
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta turn that around. Another thing kind
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: of piggyback on um, what you were saying just a
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: moment ago, Kai is the way sex work is often
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: portrayed in movies and media. Another thing will do I
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: think it's like a plot device is treated as like
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: a plot device that a character needs to overcome, right that, Um,
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: you know, a life that the characters are trying desperately
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: to escape from. And maybe some of them are, but
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: that isn't really a component of this movie, at least
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: not on the day that we see these characters. But
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: then another thing is, like I think that sex workers
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: will often be characterized in such a way that they
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: are shown as having like no moral compass almost or
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: that they wouldn't care sex means nothing to them, or
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: they don't they can't form real human relationships, so they
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: would never have a fiance or a boyfriend or you know,
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: anything like that. But like, like Cindy, this whole movie
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: is driven by her envy basically of having been cheated on.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: Just yeah, another thing that humanizes these characters. And this
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: movie also does a thing that's kind of subtle, but
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: every so often we'll hear some of the sex worker
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: characters tell a story like from their childhood. Like there's
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: one little anecdote where Alexandra is like, Oh, I had
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: a Barney doll and then I put it in the bathtub,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: and then I think maybe she's like the Madame of
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: the party room. But she says something like, yeah, me
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: and my sister would always like I would. Is that
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: what it says? I'm her LinkedIn like like it. Yeah,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what the best terminology is, but
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: I love the embellish credits. Fancy she um. She says
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: something like, yeah, me, my sister would go to these
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: dances when we were kids, and we're supposed to bring
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: a boy, but I could never find boys. What I
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: would take. I had to go dance with my sister
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: and it was just like stories of them like and
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: it's like, yes, like sex workers used to be children.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: They have interiority, they have feelings, they have jealousy, they
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: have like the whole range of emotions. That's a right,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: that's the trip. They say, if you're ever kidnapped by
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: a serial killer, you should tell them a story involving
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: your childhood because it's the best way to humanize yourself
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: to a complete stranger, because being a kid supposedly it
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: works much better than screaming let me go. So in
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: this kid, the movie is the kidnapped and we are
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: the serial killers. It's it's true. That's I feel like
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: a common misstep in movies in general, as just um,
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: when you're trying to subvert a narrative. The message is
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: more like I'm not like the other girls, I'm like this.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: But what this movie does is just say these are
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: these characters. They're like this, They're the movie is not
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: comparing them to other people. They're just showing this is
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: a night in the life of these characters, like take
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: it or leave it, and it seems like everyone wanted
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: to take it. My cat is, be honest, someone's cat.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: She's so cute. Awflee. I wanted to really quickly touch
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: on Resmique and his family. Resmik is not the central
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: character of the movie, obviously, but I did want to
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: um just bring up because he is. He is an
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: Armenian immigrant who moved to Los Angeles. There is a
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: large Armenian population in Los Angeles, but you never see
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: them represented. And I did a little out of research
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: on this because I mean, you do get this movie
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: does such a great job of giving every character like
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: an interior life. And so for Resmique, he's dealing with
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: his mother in law. You know, he's he's perhaps misrepresenting
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: how he spends his time to his family. We're not
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: exactly sure, um, but we we see that he has
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: a home life. We see that he has his own
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: interior struggles, and that is not something that is usually
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: lent to an Armenian character, because Armenian characters. UM. I
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: did a little research just to kind of confirm. It
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't know how many Armenian characters I've
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: seen on in pop culture really at all, And representation
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: for Armenian people Kardashian's aside is extremely low. Most of
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: the examples you'll find are on TV UM, and they're
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: usually characterized rather violently. UM. You'll see Armenian characters often
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: pop up on like shows like The Sopranos, as like
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: mob bosses or things like that. There's definitely some stock characters.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: When Armenian characters appear on screen, they appear in a
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: very particular way. And so you know, again Rasmik and
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: his family are not the center of the movie. But
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: I do think it's like many things this movie does,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: it is a step in the right direction, because I mean,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: in in movies about l A in general, you are
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: seeing one zip code in a gigantic city, like you're
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: seeing Beverly Hills, usually the Class Warfare zip code, and
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: it is a gigantic and many parts of it are
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: are wonderful and cool, um, but you don't get to
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: see most of those parts. And so I thought it
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: was really nice to see an Armenian family represented, and
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: I sincerely hope that um, that continues to happen moving
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: forward and we get to see all sorts of Armenian characters.
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: I would have loved to see more of Rasm's wife. Um,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: his wife, No, she does, she does have a name,
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: her name is Eva, but I would have loved to
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: see more of her. And like, so, yeah, that's a
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: yet another thing that this movie does that most movies
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: about Los Angeles do not. I agree, and UH to
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: our Armenian listeners, UM, if you have any other other
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: examples of positive representation you have seen on screen of
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: Armenian people, let us know, because we'd like to check
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: those out and refer us to UH works and characters
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: that that are that are worth covering. We're always listening.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: But yeah, there there have been some pieces written in
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: the past several years about how extremely limited there's one
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: character on the Sopranos, there's a series of characters on
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: the Shield. Okay, there's a character on Weeds, and then
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: there's the Kardashians. End of list. Um, so we do
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: need more Armenian representation. Yes, Um, does Tangerine pass the
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: Bechdel test for sure? Lots lots and lots between a
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: bunch of difference between all sorts of pairings of characters.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: And again, the main like, like we've said, the relationship
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: that's really at the core of this movie is the
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: friendship between Cindy and Alexandra. And they talk all the
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: time about I'm sure they're talking about Chester sometimes, but
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: other times they're talking about fish, they're talking about Dinah,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: there's talking about like Alexander's performance and singing and you know,
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: all all kinds of stuff. Dina and Cindy talk at
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: length as well. Uh. There is conversation between Resumeque's um
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: wife and her mother that is usually concerning him, but
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: there are a few line exchanges that don't and they
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: it can earn their daughter. And there's a lot of
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: This movie passes a whole bunch for sure. All that
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: to say, Yeah, also another rare example of a movie
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: that passes the Vito Russo test passes then a test
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: the Vito Russo test um. It basically examines if there
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: are any queer characters in the movie at all, and
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: if removing them would impact the plot at all. Basically,
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: they have to be essential to the story and they
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: can't be They cannot only be identified by their queerness.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: They have to have like other characteristics and interiority. So
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: this movie very handily passes that test. Like I said,
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: the DuVernay test um, kind of all of them, it
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: really hits all the marks as far as our nipple
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: scale goes um zero to five nipples based on its
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: representation of women. And also part of me wants to
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: kind of retool our nipple scale a bit, I know,
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: but I think it would behoove us to kind of
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: just reword it or like read to a little bit
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: to it being more about like, how does this movie
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: fair from an intersectional feminist point of view? So either way,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: looking at it from either version of our nipple scale. Um,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: it gets pretty top marks. I think I'm going to
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: give a bit of four point five. The fact that
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: it is a what I think is a good step
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: in the right direction of trans representation, black trans representation specifically. Also,
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: we didn't really talk about this, but Cindy is Afro Latina,
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: which is another representation we often don't get in media
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: in general. So I appreciated that aspect of her character
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I think that it handles a lot
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: of things very well, as we've discussed the humanization of
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: sex workers and sex work and the focus on the
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: friendship between Cindy and Alexandra, and um, the fact that
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: a story, again a story about black trans sex workers
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: is fodder for like tragedy porn, and that's not what
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: this movie was at all. It was a funny genres
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: in one. Yeah. I I loved all those things. I
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: love this movie. I'm gonna watch it every Christmas and
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: this is the Christmas movie, right. Yeah, So where it
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: gets taken off for me is again this idea of, well,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: the only way we're going to be allowed to tell,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: like learn about trans people or hear their stories is
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: through the lens of sis white men at this moment
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: in history. You know, this should have been a movie
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: made by trans filmmakers. So um step step um. So
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: yeah four point five and I will give I'll split
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: my nipples between Cindy and Alexandra. Yeah, I was going
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: to go, I think a four play to five on
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: this movie. I I feel weird marking it much higher,
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: because while this movie has so many wonderful elements going
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: for it in terms of representation, I do still feel
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: like I always get a bit of like a when
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: you look up the director and you find out, okay,
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: this is and um. Something that bugs me that we
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: we discussed a little bit as well, is that the
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: director goes on to leverage the success of this movie
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: into making The Florida Project, another wonderful movie that does
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: not involve any of the cast from Tangerine, and we
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: haven't seen um really many actors from this movie since,
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: even in that same director's work. And I do feel like,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: particularly if you are an n y U guy who
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that you know he didn't do
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: a great job. I think he did, but I do
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: feel like you you you cannot in good faith use
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: to some extent marginalized community story to launch your own
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: career and then not prioritize lifting everyone with you like
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: that is just you can't. You can't, you can't. Um.
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: Other than that, I do um agree with everything you said, Caitlin.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: I love the representation of black trans women. I love
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: the friendship. I love that it's a romp. Uh just
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: there's it's so so, so so funny. Um and I
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: credit you know of it to the lead actresses. They're
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: so so good. And and also you know, you get
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: a representation of just a lot of Los Angeles that
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: you normally wouldn't. You have the picture of an Armenian
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: immigrant family, you have their you know, sex worker representation.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: This movie has got everything. Uh so so yeah, I'll
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: go uh four point too fun five. I will give
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: two to Cindy, two to Alexandra, and one quarter two
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: Rasmics baby. Oh oh. I thought you could say resmics dog,
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: but that's probably I would have given it to the dog.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: I mean that's just me different people. Yes, how about you?
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: I want to I want to say a four, and
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: I would say the only reason I'm not giving it
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: a five is because of the issues that you guys
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: brought up, but also because there was a little bit
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: of a Tarantino is um going on here where I
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: think that anytime you have a white characters using the
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: N word to display how terrible of a person they are,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: it should at least there should be a black person
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: directing it or writing it or or something, because by
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: all appearances they got that pass from which was not necessary.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: They were terrible enough as it. As it went right,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: you could replace the N word with a monster energy
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: drink in the hand, and you know, we get the
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: same impression, and we get it. We get it. Yeah, well, Kai,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: me this fun. Yeah, good to good to see you.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: It's been a while. Um, Where can people follow your stuff?
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: Check out your podcast? You guys can listen to my
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: podcast anywhere podcasts are found. It's called Women Who Kill.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: It is a true crime comedy podcast and the focus
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: of each episode is a lady who is a murderer,
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: so we don't talk about any dudes who rape and
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: murder unless they're part of a couple, which it's only
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: happened a couple of times. You can also find me
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram at Kai Choice. That's k A.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: I c H O y C E and uh, I
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: mean that's about it. We're not doing live shows these days.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: Maybe one day we'll be back to it, but otherwise
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: you can catch me on podcast. You can catch me
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: being highly inappropriate on social media. I really thoroughly enjoy
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: your social media presence, if I may say thank you.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: Speaking of social media, you can follow us on Twitter
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: and Instagram at bachtel Cast. We've got a Patreon ak Matreon.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: It's five dollars a month. It gets you to bonus episodes,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: plus our entire back catalog of all of our bonus episodes.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: And um, you guys gotta start using protagonist. By the way,
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: Protagonia it in. You can have it. Thanks, thanks for
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: tuning in, See you next time. Hi,