Latest / Spooky Butt / 10. Weaving Wisely with Selena Madden, Ph.D.
Transcript
- speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: ⁓ hello! It's Libra season here at Spooky Butt. I'm Claire, your very fearful host, and today I am joined in Spooky Butt Studio by Dr. Selena Madden. Dr. Selena Madden is a mythic weaver, educator, and ritualist whose work illuminates the living patterns connecting mythology, archetypal psychology, embodied practice, and everyday life. Drawing from her background in dance, martial arts, depth psychology, religious studies, And ritual traditions, she creates transformative learning experiences that bridge scholarship with lived practice. She is co founder of the International Society of Mythology and resident educator of Morbid Anatomy. Classes offered include The Heart Scarab and the Soul's Journey, The Feminine Underworld Journey and The Blade as Her Weapon of Transformation, as well as the Witch's Circle series. Dr. Selena Madden, welcome to Spookybutt! speaker-0: Thank you, Claire. It's so nice to be here. speaker-1: Yeah, it's great to have you in Spookybud Studio. I am so excited for this. ⁓ so for a bit of context for our listeners at home, ⁓ the way we met was through a class at Morbid Anatomy. ⁓ so morbid anatomy, ⁓ big fan of that institution. We took ⁓ one of Jason Lehman's classes. Jason is a friend of the podcast, of course. ⁓ so I have kind of like a little fun synchronicity story about. this class. ⁓ so at the end of every one of his courses, Jason likes to ask for feedback from the community just to be like, okay, what kind of classes do you want to see offered in the future at morbid anatomy? So I remember I knew that we were the class was coming to a close. So a couple of days before then, I kept thinking, you know, I would really love a morbid anatomy class that focuses on ancient Egypt, like something in the realm of ancient Egypt. ⁓ And so I remember I had that in my back pocket. And then I went into the final class and he was like, hey, Selena's gonna pitch her heart scarab course. ⁓ so that was just so funny because I didn't have to say anything, and it was a couple of days before I just got the idea. I was like, man, I really want something focused on ancient Egypt that I can take through morbid anatomy. So that was so cool. And I did wind up taking that heart scarab class, which I absolutely loved. speaker-0: I don't think I knew that that's how you found out about the Heart Scarab class. That seems to be how how life, a magical life especially, works. You have an inkling or an inkling comes to you, some kind of idea, and ⁓ and all of a sudden it's there and it's manifested and it just feels amazing. speaker-1: Yeah, and it was it was just so cool. And I feel like that course was something that I really needed kind of at that time. It was really awesome because it was like later in the fall. It was like fall, early winter. And that was such a cool, like transitional time. ⁓ and what I loved about the Heart Scarab and the Souls journey is that it wasn't just like a dry academic or like history class. ⁓ it felt like I was kind of almost participating in the religion. So what I have written down is it felt like I was in ancient Egyptian Sunday school, which like that's the only way that I can explain it. speaker-0: I love that. That's great. That course ⁓ actually came about from a paper I wrote in undergrad. I was an art history major and I took an Egyptian traditions course and learned about what the heart scarab was, and it was just fascinating to me because I've always enjoyed symbolism and ⁓ artifacts and something that's tangible that we can hold that has some kind of meaning for us. And so I really enjoyed writing the paper and wanted to delve more and what's a better way to learn. about something than to teach it. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ that's so cool. I love that it came from like an art history foundation. ⁓ because like I have I didn't go to school for art history, but I've kind like dabbled in it and I get to explore that more through morbid anatomy, ⁓ and whatnot. But ancient Egypt was one of my ⁓ hyperfixations as a kid. Like if people were to ask me what my dream job would be, I'd say, ⁓ like literal dream job would be an old timey Egyptologist. So I would wear like the ridiculous get up and I would say like Tutan Kamun and like things like that. And I would be in the Valley of the Kings and all of that. But yeah, that was I don't know, that was so cool. And I'm so glad that I got to take it. ⁓ what I loved also is that the course was really easy to understand and it was really engaging because sometimes with ancient Egypt, I mean, there's so many historical figures. It was such a long running ⁓ point in history ⁓ that it can get really, really easy to kind of mix things up. So I felt like the information was just laid out so well and it was just like so easy to follow and it was also like it had this really logical flow to it. ⁓ so that was that was just fantastic. speaker-0: Mm, thank you for that. That's really flattering feedback. and I'm I don't label myself a historian. I'm a mythologist. So for me, of course, I'm going to pull from history, I'm going to pull facts, I'm going to pull information, but it's how to translate this information into what's relevant for us today. speaker-1: That's so cool. Because yeah, I I thought it was fascinating how through ⁓ or back during ancient Egypt and like through this religion, the emphasis was on living life like true to oneself. Like that was the ultimate spiritual achievement. And that's just so fascinating to hear because in today's society and living in the Western world, we view everything through like a Judeo-Christian lens. And everything is like good versus evil. And that wasn't really a thing in ancient Egypt, which I found absolutely fascinating. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think when we delve into a lot of these ancient traditions, we to say good and evil or right and wrong is incredibly limiting and just not at all accurate because it's things are just not that simplistic. They're not that the polarity isn't that clear cut. So we look at a morality or we look at an a code of ethics or honor, ⁓ we look at relationships. connections, ⁓ how we show up for ourselves, how we show up for with other people and for other people in our community. And so that's what the conversation becomes about. And what is interesting with the ancient Egyptian practices is their concept of of they want the heart to have been true during that person's lifetime. Meaning they it was not that they didn't do anything wrong, but that they come into the ⁓ into the hall of truth to have that heart weighed, did I essentially do the best that I could? And did I try to remedy any wrongdoing that I had committed? And if the heart didn't, and the heart in the tr in the ancient tradition, ancient Egyptian tradition is the seat of the soul. So if it didn't happen, then you had Amit, a goddess ⁓ whose part hippo and crocodile and lion would devour that soul because it wasn't meant to continue on. And it was always in service to community and the cosmic order. speaker-1: ⁓ that's so cool. Because I it's kind of like in today's world with like the Judah Judeo excuse me Christian lens, it feels very kind of i individualistic and simplistic and everything is kind of boiled down to like almost cartoon characters, it feels like. But this is so cool. Like with ancient Egypt, it's about how do you affect, you know, those around you. And then did you live your soul's purpose? Does your soul get to evolve? Because in ancient Egypt, they didn't have, you know, a hell, your soul just disappeared. Like you did not yeah, you didn't get to go on into eternity. So that's so incredible. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the judgment, the difference is Judeo Christian has an external factor that's judging and then ⁓ offering forgiveness. But in most other cultures, I believe it comes from your community and the cosmic order and your own true sense of self and authenticity, versus I can go do whatever I want and hail Mary's and we're done. Not to minimize what the Judeo Christians are. But it was a very different ⁓ perspective to take in what was considered a moral living. speaker-1: Wow. Yeah, that's so cool. That's just like it's so interesting because it's yeah, you have to kind of stay conscious and don't make the mistake or like don't be terrible in the first place and then go back and ask for forgiveness, you know. So ⁓ that's awesome. Yeah. And the Heart Scarab and the Souls Journey course. So that is ⁓ a class that you will teach again in the future, I would assume, right? ⁓ speaker-0: Actually, just wrapping up that course again. ⁓ I co-taught, yeah, I co-taught with ⁓ a very dear friend of mine. His name is Orpheus Black, and he essentially practices comedicism, which is a a modern forum of the ancient Egyptian traditions. He's also a ritualist like myself, and ⁓ he comes in, he's he's teaching solo the very last session which is gonna happen before ⁓ this podcast airs and he's a great conversationalist and it's just here's his take on on the heart scare and the funerary practices and the idea of morality and you just ask him questions. It's gonna be a big Q and A. Cool. speaker-1: ⁓ wonderful. Cause yeah, if I mean, you think about it, it that religion lasted longer than Christianity has been around. So that's something kinda kinda crazy to think about. Like we're not the first people to exist, I know, which is hard for some of us to understand. But ⁓ so I wanna get into like your background in mythology. So where did your interest in mythology begin and how did you get started as a mythologist? speaker-0: I think my interest began as a kid. I remember reading Edith Hamilton's mythology. That was simply the title of the book. And it was Greek mythology-centered. ⁓ so it got into summaries of of all the major stories, ⁓ the major gods and and some of the minor deities. And I used to watch like Clash of the Titans, the original. I know they remade it. ⁓ so I always had a bit of an interest in it. When I finished my art history degree, ⁓ of course we get into some mythological narratives a bit in art history, if you're looking at Greek statues and sarcophagy, Hindu traditions, you know, so you y as you're studying the art, you're also learning some of the culture. And I honestly thought I was done with school. I said, I don't want to go back to school. And then a friend of mine told me about Pacifica Graduate Institute out of the Santa Barbara area and this mythological studies program. Then I thought, ⁓ no, I'm gonna go back to school RD. ⁓ so I went to campus. It's a beautiful campus. At the time they had two locations down in Santa Barbara. ⁓ they had a weekend, like a an intro type of weekend where you could go and learn about the different programs. There's a small school, they only had seven programs at the time, and they are largely focused on ⁓ psychology, deaf psychology, Jungian psychology. So I went to look at the mythological studies with an emphasis in depth psychology program. And they had some alumni speaking, they had admissions counselors, you know, all of the relevant information. And I sat down at the lunch table. They had the tables divided by programs. So you could sit with an advisor specific to the program. And we all had name tags. And I sit down and across from me was an older couple with a very unique name. His name was John Bonaducci. Some people will understand the story that I'm about to reference. And I looked at him and I said, Are you related to Danny Bonaducci? Now, Danny Bonaducci, for those who don't know, was in the Partridge family, which ended, I think, in 1978, right around there. And ⁓ my father was in the Partridge family. He played Reuben Kincaid, who is the manager of the group. speaker-1: Ha ha ha. speaker-0: So I'm sitting at this table, and John kind of gets a scowl, and he looks down at his food and very reluctantly said yes. And I said, Well, my dad is Dave Madden. And his eyes lit up, his wife's eyes lit up. The counselor who was sitting there immediately knew what was going on, that we knew each other from way back. And she started laughing, and she said, This is synchronicity. Which is one of the key terms that we use in depth psychology. And it was at that moment that both John and I knew that we were meant to be in this program. We ended up being in the same cohort. So we got to go through the three years together. And and I mean it was and I knew already that that the myth program was something that I was very interested in. That I love stories. I love ⁓ traditions. I love spirituality and I just knew that there was gonna be something profound for me with this program. I didn't know what I was gonna do with the degree, I didn't know how it was gonna transform me. I just knew that it was the place for me to be. speaker-1: ⁓ that is amazing. Just like having that synchronicity there that was kind of like you're actually in the right place. Here's, you know, a familiar face and someone you know on like a deeper level. That is so cool. And of course of course that happens at a Union Institute. I do I have a question about Pacifica. so I was kind of doing a bit of research about it online. ⁓ so was it founded by Carl like students of Carl Jung, like students who learned directly from him. speaker-0: That's great question. Not that I'd ever heard. I know one of my professors took a course from I think it was both Hillman and maybe Campbell as well. but I don't I don't know actually offhand when the school was founded and how that relates to Jung's timeline. ⁓ yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. speaker-1: Mm, okay. Yeah, I'll have to look into that 'cause I wasn't one hundred percent sure. But that sounds amazing 'cause I've been to Santa Barbara like once and that's just I don't know, it's like paradise. Like that's the perfect place for in depth like psychology and mythological studies and all of that. That is so cool. speaker-0: ⁓ it was a beautiful campus. It was like a weekend retreat because it was what they call semi residency. So we would go up to campus one weekend a month and just gorgeous. The the landscape was amazing. ⁓ and it's very conducive to having serene environments and healthy food and places to meditate or reflect or read or study or have conversation with your your cohort members or professors. I mean it's It was a a an amazing experience every weekend that I went up there. speaker-1: That's wonderful. And it's funny because I initially heard about Pacifica through people at Morbid Anatomy, because like I am a Patreon subscriber, so I, you know, will watch video lectures and that sort of thing that have been ⁓ pre-recorded. And it's like so and so from Pacifica. So and so it's like it's just so funny because it's it's like a there's what what's the saying? It's like the Venn diagram is just a circle. It's like Pacifica and Morbid Anatomy, just just a big circle there. speaker-0: There yeah, there's a few of us there and I I don't remember exactly how I found out about Morbid Anatomy, but I'm pretty sure it was from someone affiliated with Pacifica, either a a professor or another student. speaker-1: ⁓ okay. Yeah, that makes total sense. so you're also the co-founder of the International Society of Mythology. And so I was doing a bit of research into this, and something that I really, really admire about the International Society of Mythology is that you guys mean it when you say international. So it's, you know, international students, it's international instructors, and then it's international myths. So I think that is wonderful because if someone wants to go beyond, you know, ancient Greece and ancient Rome, they can do that by taking courses through the International Society of Mythology. speaker-0: Yes, yes, that was our goal. ⁓ and it's all people from Pacifica. The origin story to ISM. ⁓ I was already in dissertation and there were a group of students who were just beginning the myth program, but because it was COVID, they couldn't meet in person. So everything was virtual and they essentially started a virtual casual group that would meet up, you know, and just connect, ⁓ to make connections with other classmates or alumni or people going through dissertation. So that's how I became a part of the group. And we called it Mythic Musings at the time. And a couple of them decided that they wanted to go bigger with this. And I was one of the people that they approached to form an actual organization. So we are, I think we're two years old now. I think we just celebrated our second year. And We've had some great growth. ⁓ we have brought in amazing instructors and guest lecturers from, like you said, all over the world. We've inherited what was called the Mythologium, which was ⁓ a conference that was also founded by two women from Pacifica who graduated several years ago and they passed the torch to us. So we've had that conference a couple times and we're still growing. We have a journal of mythology. ⁓ we want to make the conference hybrid. we want to have a podcast. I mean there's a there's a lot of things in the works. ⁓ we just don't quite have the people power yet. speaker-1: ⁓ wow. I'm surprised that it's only two years old because looking at the website, I was like, ⁓ man, this has probably been around for at least a decade because it it looks so robust and so professional. speaker-0: Well, thank you. speaker-1: ⁓ wow. Yeah. I'll I'll have to dig more into that because I know, for instance, like I grew up in the Midwest. I went to Catholic school. So I, you know, took Latin classes and that sort of thing. So that's kind of my area of knowledge. But there are so many ways that we can learn more about ourselves as like individuals and then as humans through mythology from other parts of the world. Cause I don't know, it's so cool to maybe learn about a practice in Japan or in West Africa or wherever, and you're like, that's absolutely brilliant. I can apply that to my own life. So I feel like the International Society of Mythology is fantastic for that if you wanna just go deeper into the world of myth, you know. speaker-0: Absolutely. Because when we look at all these different traditions in the world, we they all have common threads. People are people. So ⁓ our questions about the universe and the meaning of things is all the same. The the love that we want to have in relationships, the connections we want to have with community and family and kids and ⁓ spirituality, the it's all the same stuff. We're just all approaching it a little bit differently. So what with at least this mythology program has taught us is how to apply these mythological narratives to who we are and how we want to show up. And in the work that I've been doing, both personally and professionally, I'm really taking these as examples, as ⁓ kind of guides, ⁓ the archetypes that we work with and how how can I connect with them so that I can be who I want to be. speaker-1: Yeah, that's that's fantastic. And I feel like another thing that would be great about doing this through an international lens is learning how advanced other cultures were and have been for millennia. Because as we know, like anybody who studies history, it's those damn Victorians, you know, who just trashed so much and then re-literally rewrote history. So there's so much knowledge that was lost. And it feels like Connecting to ancient mythology would be a great way to be like, Hey, it actually wasn't that way, it was this way. speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. Which is an interesting thing to to consider because mythologists are not looked upon in academia, I think, the same as a historian or an anthropologist or even a religious studies scholar. I feel like we're kind of pushed out of the boundaries a little bit. We're on the fringes because perhaps we do bring in the archetypal lens to this type of work. It's not just a cut and dry like we were talking about archaeology at the beginning of our conversation. It's not cut and dry. We we uncovered this and it's what it means. Because you can't have that type of ⁓ definitive concept when you're talking about psyche and emotions. It gets a little more convoluted than that. speaker-1: Right. And it's like you can't yeah, you can't like it's not quantitative. It's not like, you know, X milliliters of myth. I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting because it's like myth is at I mean, human beings, we kinda run on myth and myth is at the center of everything. It's like every I mean, every single song is its own myth, you know? And it's something that's just so intrinsic and it what it's one of the main things that makes us human. So that's I don't know, that's so cool. And I'm I'm thinking speaker-0: Exactly. Excellent leaders of myth. I like that. ⁓ speaker-1: hoping that it becomes more prevalent in academia and it's taken more seriously as a practice, you know. speaker-0: I would love to see that. It and it has been challenging trying to find positions within university and colleges because they don't quite know where to put me. I remember applying at ⁓ at a community college in LA Santa Monica Community College for an anthropology teaching position and they said we only take anthropology degrees. That was that was it. That was the only response I got. ⁓ you know, religious studies might be the closest because they tend to be a little more interdisciplinary. But even psychology, because I'm not a clinical psychologist. Hard to find a home, mm-hmm. speaker-1: ⁓ Interesting. ⁓ that's because I mean Jung and Freud are like the bedrock of modern day psychology. So that's kind of fascinating. Because I feel like if you were to take a course in myths, that would be a great way to round out a psychology degree. That is so crazy that they're not open to that. I hope that changes. speaker-0: Me too. We should put you in charge. speaker-1: Listen. On behalf of Spooky But, yeah. They'll be like, you know what, fine. So ⁓ I do want to get into this is some more synchronicity, ⁓ which is really fun. ⁓ your experience with weaving. So something kind of cool is that ⁓ at the beginning of September I started taking a class called ⁓ The stronger sex, the evolution of woman, ⁓ through morbid anatomy. And it's taught by Dr. Blythe Collier. ⁓ and so it basically ⁓ it's a four-week class and it goes through the evolution of woman, and it's again trying to undo ⁓ what was done to history and anthropology, you know, by those Victorians that I mentioned earlier and others, ⁓ just basically trying to tell the truth of, hey, this is what we found. ⁓ this is how woman actually evolved. You know, everybody was a hunter-gatherer, everybody had to gather, you know, it was a much more egalitarian society pre-agriculture. So it's been a really fascinating class. But on the first class, this was so cool, we got really into weaving. So weaving is believed to be the oldest craft practiced by humans. And it's basically, you can kind of think of it as the foundation of like almost all human technology. ⁓ and it's what's found at all of these different dig sites. So it's like weaving, you know, hunting nets, weaving clothing and, you know, weaving things to carry supplies and that sort of thing. ⁓ so it's just so interesting because it's again something that is so intrinsic and it's, for lack of a better term, kind of the fabric of being human. So what I wanted to know is ⁓ how do you incorporate weaving into your work? So, like, are you like, do you physically weave or is this more of like, kind of abstract weaving myth and depth psychology. speaker-0: That's a great question. I am not a physical weaver. I consider myself more of an archetypal weaver. I remember during grad school in one of my courses, the professor went around and asked all of us basically, what is your superpower? What is what is a gift that you feel you have? And off the bat, I knew and my answer was I can make connections with anything. Everything to me is interconnected. And through my through my journey, one of the symbols that constantly appeared for me was spider and weaving the web. So that's where I I took it. Like you could almost challenge me, like what's the connection between this pen and that tree? Like I'll I'll figure something out. so it's more about a psychological archetypal type of weaving. where I can make those connections. I can see where everything intersects and how how you can create your own your own web of existence. So that's where I came up with with the weaving. But interesting that you do ask because ⁓ a colleague of mine from Pacifica, Dr. C. Gabriel, she does physically weave and we are ⁓ going to be co-teaching a class ⁓ that's going to integrate my abstract concepts and then she's going to bring the physical component to the course as well. speaker-1: ⁓ that's so cool. Will that will that class be offered ⁓ remotely? speaker-0: It will be offered remotely, yes. ⁓ she will have ⁓ a kit available of different supplies through her website for those who might want to purchase it just to help make it a little bit easier and it's gonna be a lower price point. But yeah, it's gonna be virtual. I'm gonna propose it to Morbit Anatomy. ⁓ so probably be after the beginning of the year before that one is actually live. speaker-1: ⁓ that's so cool. ⁓ that's awesome. Because yeah, it's just like I n weaving's one of those things I'm like, I'm just so used to seeing it like in museums, like here's this, you know, tapestry or whatever. And it's something that it's like it's so common that I don't really think about it, but it's I don't know, it's just so fascinating because it's so important and it's so integral to the experience that, you know, human beings have had on this planet. that is so cool. I'm glad I asked. I think I should speaker-0: Physically start doing it. I remember what what they call it in elementary school where get like just popsicle sticks and you you make them into ⁓ an X and then you just take some yarn. I forget what they were called. speaker-1: Yeah. Is it it's not a god's eye, is it? speaker-0: Maybe. Maybe that is what it was called. Or maybe that was. speaker-1: It's just like Christian school, I don't know. And I know what you're talking because it's like it's like two different colors. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I did a couple of those. speaker-0: Now I wanna go make one. speaker-1: It's funny. And it's kind of again with a little bit more synchronicity. This is wild. I was doing a little bit of house cleaning earlier and I have this like set of light dumbbells in my place ⁓ that I haven't used in a while. And so I had to move them to vacuum and whatnot. And then I set them back and as the light was shining in, I saw that it's like the inside of it is covered in spider webs. It's like, I'm gonna have to clean that. But those weren't there like a week ago. Which is wild. So I'm like, ⁓ maybe there's a spider here in my apartment who's like, hey, synchronicity. speaker-0: ⁓ I have many spider stories, but I'll I'll just share this one. So I I mentioned to you before we began recording that I'm from LA and I moved up to Oregon a couple of years ago. And the last place I was living, I was writing one of those ⁓ little backhouses, ⁓ a little studio, and it was very charming and the backyard was lovely. And I went out one morning and you know, there was still dew out and and the grass was damp and I see something glistening in the tree. And I saw the most phenomenal spider web. It was massive and it was just perfectly curated. And I there was a little spider in there. And I took pictures. It was, it was absolutely just divine and magical. And you would turn at a certain angle and you couldn't see anything. And you'd turn again and you would see just how perfect the spider web was. And so I got on Google and did the research. And it's apparently by an orb spider. And as ⁓ my Google search indicated the next day it was gone because the spider ends up eating its own web again and re ingests the protein. speaker-1: Wow. I've never heard of that. That is so cool. speaker-0: It was phenomenal. It was just it was a beautiful gift of nature that I I got to experience. speaker-1: Yeah, and you got to see it before it went away 'cause it sounds like the orb spider ingests it pretty quickly. speaker-0: Mm-hmm, yeah, in a day. speaker-1: Wow, how cool. Yeah, I was kind of upset about the spider webs my apartment, but now I'm like, okay. I'll view I'll view this as a gift. That's that's that's wild. Again, the synchronicity s it's something that's like, ⁓ that's weird. You don't really pay too much attention to it, and then it's like, ⁓ hey, maybe there's a deeper meaning here, you know? speaker-0: Mm-hmm. ⁓ spider has a lot of symbolism in a lot of different traditions. And ⁓ we hear Mother Spider, ⁓ the African traditions have Anansi, whom we got to meet in American Gods, the the TV show. But ⁓ yeah, spider is is very it's a very powerful creature of transformation and nurturing, I think, to some degree. So it's unfortunate that we have so many fears around spider. speaker-1: Mm, okay. speaker-0: Because they're they're they're beautiful creatures and I didn't always feel that way. speaker-1: Yeah, I know like growing up, you know, in Missouri and then like going off to summer camp and whatnot, we were just kind of taught well, certain spiders of course are dangerous, but then also to be like, hey, like if you see a spider in your house, don't kill it because they ingest bugs that you don't want there. So it's about, you know, balance. They're keeping things clean and they're they're helping with the ecosystem of your house. So Yes. Yay spiders. I never thought I'd say that. Yay spiders. Right? So I do want to get into ⁓ your upcoming courses and mini lectures. ⁓ so let's see. Okay, so with ⁓ we have the next course that you'll be teaching starts on Wednesday, October 7th, and it runs Wednesdays up until November 11th. And that's the Wild Threshold, Women Myth and the Living World. So what I find so cool about this is I feel like this is really timely due to all the like fanfare. Around Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, because I think I told you earlier, I did see the Odyssey. I was kind of like ho-hum about it. And honestly, I feel like at this stage in the game, I'm just really sick of male-centric mythology. It's like, you know, this, of course, the Odyssey, it's this incredible story, it's, you know, the foundation of so much. But I honestly am more interested in something that's just female-centric and female-driven. So I feel like this course, the wild threshold. would be a great way to dive into that. speaker-0: Mm, thank you. I have not yet seen the Odyssey. I hear a lot of mixed reviews, but I understand what you say about male centric storylines and narratives. And it's probably again because of my own personal journey. ⁓ my dissertation talked about the feminine warrior and feminine lover archetypes. So when I when I was writing that, I first had to make the distinction. What do I mean by feminine? And is it the same as Is feminine masculine for me the same as male-female? Some of the questions that came up. And to be honest, my answer sometimes changes depending on the context, depending on what I'm referring to. But ⁓ in general, my work tends to be women-centric as well as feminine-centric. But as we know from depth psychology and and just from life, there has to be a polarity. We need to have both for the balance. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: But I tend to draw mostly women. I like looking at stories about women, strong women, the loving women, you know, just all of the women archetypes that ⁓ that we can encounter. And then I do make the distinction between what does that mean as far as our feminine, masculine, energetic balance? So Wild Threshold came about because there's a wildness that women Have that we've always grappled with, where we've not been allowed to have this wild side, whether it's because ⁓ others wanted us to be civilized and well-mannered and whatever that meant. But our wildness is incredibly important and it gives us access to our intuition, it gives us. access to a ferocity that can be in service to community, to family, to our partner. But it's and it's also I'm also going to take this sexually because we have a sexual wildness. And again, when we are influenced by a Judeo Christian lens, we are restrained and we're not allowed to have access to that wildness within us. But that's how we become whole people. So a lot of my work centers around releasing what we're ashamed of, what we're embarrassed by, and just understanding all of the parts to us, all of who we are, and reconciling how much of this do I want to engage with, how much of this ⁓ might need some healing or some adjustment or maybe ⁓ some control or discernment issued over it. So I'd like to look at all of that because that's part of the wildness. You can't just have the the wild animal running completely amok because that's going to be a little too chaotic for everybody, but you need to know that that wildness exists within you. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ my God. That's so cool. Because yeah, it's it's, you know, thinking through like the lens of ⁓ living in, you know, a patriarchal society and like domesticity and that sort of thing. That's just so cool because it's like when you think wild, you think, of course, like you said, the extreme, you know, running through the woods or whatever. And it's like, no, you can you can integrate these different parts of yourself to maybe be better at setting boundaries or have more confidence when it comes to starting a new project or this or ⁓ this or that. ⁓ So that sounds fantastic and it's not it's not some it's offered to everybody. This isn't something that's just, you know, yeah, it's not just for women. So point. speaker-0: No, I'm a yeah, I'm a firm believer in letting men, in letting non binary, like everybody can come take my my courses. It's I certainly don't wanna limit it to women, ⁓ biological women, women ⁓ identified. Yeah. Everybody come. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I I wanted to point that out 'cause I I'm sure there are maybe some male listeners who are in like interested, but they don't want to like be in a space that's all women. So come on down, check it out. Come on down. I think hell yeah, you're the next contestant. speaker-0: You have valid voices and questions as well. So absolutely. Yeah, I'm I'm a firm believer in that. speaker-1: Yeah, totally. Okay, and then ⁓ the next course that you're offering starting Mondays, and that runs from October nineteenth to ⁓ November twenty-third is The Witch's Circle Building a Living Practice. So, okay, yet another synchronicity story. This is so funny. ⁓ I love it. So so like I think a week or two ago I attended ⁓ a Patreon event for ⁓ morbid anatomy, and it's the ⁓ man, what is it? It's the anomalous experiences open mic. So it's, you know, people who are Patreon subscribers, we all join a Zoom call and then we go around sharing, you know, synchronicity stories or ghost stories or whatever. And what was so funny is, you know, we get into this ⁓ Zoom room and it's like maybe me and four other people. And Joanna, ⁓ the creative director and founder of Morbid Anatomy, she was ⁓ Calling on us one by one to introduce ourselves. And every single person, I was the last person who was called on. Every single person before me was like, yeah, I've taken the witch's circle and I love Selena Madden. Every single person. I was like, ⁓ my God, because this was the day after we were initially ⁓ scheduled to record. So, you know, it gets to me and I was like, funny story. And everybody in the call just of course starts freaking out. It was so much fun. speaker-0: That's so great. speaker-1: Amazing. I I've never had anything like that happen. Like every single person specifically brought your name up and they brought up the witch's circle. speaker-0: That warms my heart. You know, Morbid Anatomy has given me a really amazing home. I've had some wonderful conversations, great people coming in to take classes. ⁓ Witches Circle was I've had two different ⁓ iterations of Witches' Circle with Morbid Anatomy. And the first was really just ⁓ to set the foundations behind Wicca, which is a more ⁓ modern day ⁓ European practice of witchcraft. And then I wanted to expand. Then I offered a second course that was more hands-on, more ritual-oriented. now this one is gonna be a little stronger blend of the two, and I'm definitely venturing farther away from just Wicca. So a little bit of background is I've essentially always been a witch. I didn't know that terminology when I was a kid. My mom considered herself a metaphysician. I don't really know what that meant, but I remember she introduced me to concepts of karma, stones and healing energy, and she did Reiki and just the the basically non Judeo Christian lens, which is funny because my aunt was a nun. speaker-1: ⁓ wow. speaker-0: But she was very supportive of the way that my mom and my dad wanted to raise me. ⁓ so when I was 20, I then made some friends ⁓ that happened to be a coven, and they came from a Wiccan-based practice. So they taught me a lot of the foundation ⁓ that was like Gerald Gardner influenced, ⁓ Scott Cunningham, people like that. So that gave me this code of ethics, ⁓ helped me understand the components to casting a circle and you know, good intentions and not so good intentions and consequences and all those things. And then ⁓ just as I evolved as a person, my practice evolved, and then especially after grad school, where I I had access to all of this information from different traditions. So I I want to offer that now. I don't want to be limited to just Wicca because I don't really even practice just Wicca anymore. speaker-1: Okay. Yeah, that sounds awesome. And I did notice like ⁓ in the class description that it is open to all levels. So if anybody's kind of curious about getting into witchcraft and then all the way up to like a seasoned practitioner. And so I personally ⁓ am really interested in building a custom spiritual practice f you know, for myself. ⁓ I don't know that I becoming a full-blown witch would necessarily be my path, but I know that there's a massive part of me that just needs some type of daily ritual, some type of daily practice. And so I just keep thinking about the witches circle. And I was so glad to see that you're offering it again this year, ⁓ which is awesome. ⁓ so I I know that I do want to take this class and I do want to pull everything I can from it to build something that is unique to me and then helps to keep me, you know, focused on my spiritual journey. speaker-0: Yeah. And that's perfect. A person ⁓ doesn't need to come in wanting to be a witch because what does that even mean? You know, which is such an abstract word that has been been given different definitions throughout time and throughout different cultures. So it really is about finding your I'm gonna say crafting or weaving your own spiritual practice. you know, I like to use props and tools, but it really comes down to intention and Ritual is about dedicating yourself to to setting aside time, to ⁓ creating it's not just a habit, but but a regular practice of that intention and that manifesting. And you don't have to call that witchcraft. That can be anything. speaker-1: Right. ⁓ that's so cool. 'Cause I know, yeah, some people have, you know, like a cartoonish, I guess, interpretation of witches and whatnot, and it's like no, it's actually just, you know, being true to yourself and paying attention really. speaker-0: I even taught in the kink community recently around ritual and the idea of the sacred. So again, these are not people who necessarily are looking to get into witchcraft, but they are looking to have a certain meaning in their in their relationships, in their intimate relationships and connections. And that involves a a concept of what sacred means and ritualistic practices with their partner. to just strengthen their connection. And so again, it's it's the same thing. speaker-1: I never would have thought of just like even the concept of something being sacred kind of woven into witchcraft. That is so fascinating. Cause when I think sacred, of course I think all the like Catholic stuff and whatnot, but ⁓ that's so wonderful. Just kind of what is sacred? What does it mean to you? And like how do you how do you honor it? That is fan that's fantastic. speaker-0: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited about this horse. speaker-1: Yeah. And then ⁓ I did see that it kind of leads into the next ⁓ mini lecture and ritual that you have coming up. ⁓ so I saw that the witches circle for ⁓ later this year is going to have a Sawin focus. And then on Sawin, so on ⁓ Halloween, October thirty-first at four PM Pacific time, you have at the threshold of the dead Sawin Liminality and the Journey between worlds. So this is your ⁓ free. Live mini lecture and ritual. This is so cool. I am so excited to take this. I have not taken one of your ⁓ mini lectures and rituals before, but this feels like this'll just be perfect. It'll just be such a cool way to like I feel like celebrate Halloween this way it's supposed to be celebrated. And then, you know, afterwards you can go out and do your thing. But ⁓ yeah, ⁓ is this your first time doing this particular ritual on Halloween? speaker-0: Publicly I think so. ⁓ I often have my own private sowen ritual. ⁓ but yeah, I don't I don't remember offering it online previously and I wanted Witches Circle to also time with Sawin so that those in the class could work towards their own ritual to do, but then of course make the offering to everybody who wanted to come. And Soin is kind of the witch's new year. And it's the time when the veil between worlds is thinnest. so it's it's a very important solstice for us to honor and enjoy. ⁓ it's the time if you want to connect with ancestors, ⁓ that's supposed to be the ideal opportunity. Although I'm not gonna make the focus completely we're gonna connect with with great grandma or ⁓ or we're gonna connect with deity, but it's just a way to honor those who have come before us and When we think of time in magic, it's not linear. So it's not grandma and mom and me and daughter, but we look at who's even going to come after me and I'm going to honor those spirits and those souls as well. speaker-1: ⁓ wow. That is so cool. I've never heard about that like in relation to Sawan about honoring future souls. That is awesome. That's amazing. That's really cool to hear. speaker-0: Thank you. I think I have a a different take on ancestry. I was adopted and I know very little about my biological ancestry and my adopted family, most of them were back east in Michigan. So I had just my parents and my brother ⁓ close to me. So I have I have a very limited understanding. So I kind of create my own in a way. How do I connect? How do I access? how do I find out who I am? speaker-1: Wow. ⁓ that's so cool. That's yeah, that's so inspirational and that's so wonderful. And it just that makes a lot of sense about how you're, you know, so drawn to mythology and just, you know, what is my journey? Where do I come from? ⁓ wow. Man, I love that. Well, thank you. Okay, so we can't get too too into this, but I do want to point out that you do have an upcoming book, which congratulations, you have a book deal. ⁓ so is there Like a maybe a ballpark estimate, like will this come out sometime in twenty twenty seven? speaker-0: ⁓ I'm supposed to finish writing July of 2027. Okay, I at that point I'm not sure what the time frame will be for them to do any of the editing. They wanted my first book, so I don't know all of the logistical procedures, but it is very exciting. It's ⁓ Bloomsbury Academic and they discovered me, discovered me or discovered my work. I'm actually not. Clear from a year ago, I presented at American Academy of Religion conference. It was the first one with AAR that I had done. And I I presented on pulling from my dissertation ⁓ a feminine ⁓ warrior archetype and just kind of unpacked that a little bit more for the purpose of the conference. And they approached me a year later and asked if I'd be willing to write a book. And I said, Well, sure. ⁓ but yeah, so it'll be it'll be a year, maybe a year and a half before it's actually on the shelves, but they are aiming to ⁓ put it worldwide and in ⁓ different media formats. speaker-1: ⁓ wow, that's amazing. ⁓ will it be like an academic text? speaker-0: It may be a secondary text. Yeah, the feedback I received from their reviewers is that it would make a great ⁓ supplemental text. they are gonna push it to be in universities and colleges, but I think it's also going to be available in in, you know, your everyday bookstore as well. speaker-1: Next. ⁓ wow. Man, that's awesome. That is so cool. I can't wait. Great. Yeah, well, good luck with all of that. And I know it's, you know, it's a lot having that deadline, but also like you have a PhD. Like you can you can crank this out. You're gonna be completely speaker-0: Me too. No, I I will. I've never messed a deadline yet. speaker-1: That's awesome. Yeah. All all of the best luck. So we have gotten to the point in the show where you shared the spooky story ⁓ that you have brought with us today. speaker-0: Yes, okay. This was several years ago, probably about ten years ago. And my partner at the time, ⁓ whose name is is Alex, he owned a motorcycle shop and I worked at at his shop with him. So as part of him being a shop owner, we would often go to different vendor events, ⁓ dinners and and you know, social events that they would have. And this was in LA. And there was going to be an event at the Queen Mary, which I don't think it's harbored there anymore, but it used to be at the time in Long Beach. And we rode two up on a motorcycle to get through the traffic. And we we parked the bike and got off the bike to take our helmets off, our gear, get our bags together. And the way we were situated, ⁓ Alex was on one side of the bike, I was on the other. Behind Alex was where the Queen Mary was was moored, I guess is what they call it. And so I'm facing the ship and in front of the ship is a long walkway that had big, massive planters just spaced along the the walkway. So I get to see the view of the ship and what's happening. And I look up and something catches my eye. I see a figure walking along that path near the planters, but he looked very out of place. He he was an older man. He was walking with a cane, but not to where he needed the cane. So he still was very upright and looked very distinguished. Had long white hair that looked a bit unkempt, that was about shoulder length, maybe a little past shoulder length, but didn't look brushed. And this long black kind of trench coat, but again, not a modern day type of of clothing. It just looked out of place. And I I asked Alex, I said, Hey, do you see that guy behind you? And he turned and he looked. He says, Yeah. And then he went back to what he was doing. I thought, ⁓ well, he didn't have any reaction. That's interesting. And I'm finishing up getting my bag together and I look up again and the man is gone. And I thought maybe he walked behind one of the planters, but I'm still watching and still watching, and he never re emerges. So now we Alex and I have our things and we go up to the entrance of the Queen Mary. So there's a a guy sitting out at a ⁓ Fold up table taking your name and checking you in. And I never saw him. And it just was really bugging me. So we sit down for dinner and I said, Alex, did you you saw that guy who was at the entrance? And I reiterated the situation. He says, Yeah. I said, You're you're not messing with me. He says, You're talking about the Latino guy who checked us in at the the entrance. I said, No, no, no. And I described what he looked like. And Alex had no idea what I was talking about. And I thought he's messing with me, but he really wasn't. And ⁓ It just kept bothering me. So I thought, huh, I mean maybe that was like an actor from the Queen Mary because they often have ⁓ they let people stay on the ship and cause it's haunted and so they may have some kind of theatrical thing going on. So I I went to work the next day. I was working for American Honda at the time, motorcycle division, and ⁓ my boss asked, ⁓ how was, you know, how is the the event? And I told him and I told him what I saw, and he got this big grin on his face. He says, Go to your computer. And see if you can find an image of Howard Hughes when he was older. I didn't even really know who Howard Hughes was at the time. now we have the Leonardo DiCaprio movie, but Howard Hughes either he co-designed the the Queen Mary as well as the Spruce Goose, I believe. Anyway, long past, he he deceased he was deceased a long time ago. And I go and I'm Googling and there's some pictures of him and as he's younger, and then I see one. That was more of a drawing. It wasn't an actual photograph. And that was exactly who I saw. And Howard Hughes was said to have gone crazy. I think there's conspiracy theories that maybe his family was poisoning him slowly so that they could kill him off. He could access to the money, whatever. I don't know all the conspiracy theories. So we didn't have actual photographs of Howard Hughes as he was older, but because he was a recluse, but we had this drawing. And that was exactly who I saw. So I am convinced I saw the ghost of Howard Hughes. speaker-1: My God, that is crazy. Cause it was just it was like broad daylight, right? ⁓ nighttime. speaker-0: It was nighttime. It was early evening, probably like six o'clock or so. ⁓ yeah, so not the middle of the night. There was plenty of activity, and there was nowhere that he could have gone. Even stand if he just stood behind that planter, I still would have seen him at some point, seen that there was a figure there. He was not near ⁓ the entrance to the Queen Mary. There was nothing else there other than other planters. He was just absolutely gone. speaker-1: So ⁓ my God, that's crazy. So okay, the Queen Mary, I think, I think was built in like the 30s. So I wonder if, or maybe I I could be wrong, but I wonder if maybe what you saw was like a residual haunting, or like ⁓ like I guess it's the stone tape theory, like the energy just kind of replays itself, you know? so I don't know if that I mean, I don't know enough about Howard Hughes ⁓ and that timeline. That is so interesting. ⁓ did you talk to anybody else like on the ship about him or like did you have any further discussions about that that night on the Queen Mary? speaker-0: I remember. ⁓ I know that I did some research later about the Queen Mary and it is said to be haunted and they will hold special events ⁓ or let people stay the night and at your a as you dare kind of thing. speaker-1: ⁓ That's wild. Because ⁓ some friends and I, so I have a friend who is from LA, he lives there now. ⁓ he and his wife, a couple of years ago, we ⁓ went to the Queen Mary, I think in like 2023, 2024. And we did do a ghost tour, but this is, you know, broad daylight. And of course they go through everything. They go through like there was a, you know, a child who passed away in the the swimming pool that's on board, and that's apparently like the most haunted area of the ship. And then people have, you know ⁓ seen the ghost of Winston Churchill or they've, you know, smelled his cologne or like his cigarette or not his cigarette, his cigar, like that sort of thing. I have never, ever, ever heard of anybody having the experience of seeing Howard Hughes on the Queen Mary. That is so fascinating. speaker-0: That's cool. Wow. Now I feel like I should contact their administration or whoever and and ask or share the the story. speaker-1: my God, that's wild. Yeah, I was that's so funny because I was just thinking about the Queen Mary the other day. And that's so interesting. Of course I was. I know. Because it's yeah, it's I mean it's a cool ship and it's it's just funny because it's ⁓ it's like a very, very popular event space, you know, which is why you guys were there. ⁓ and that's just so funny that people, you know, unassuming people who are there for, you know, work events or whatever see. speaker-0: Of course you were. speaker-1: Like full blown apparitions. And I did I did recently learn that I think apparitions might be the ⁓ what is it? It's like the rarest form of a paranormal experience. You know, people typically like they will hear footsteps or, you know, ⁓ you know, a light flickers on and off. But and it's like, you know, we tend to think if you know, it's not real unless we can see it with our own two eyes. You know, it's not real unless you see an apparition. ⁓ so that's That's pretty cool. Not only did you see Howard Hughes, but like you got to see like a firsthand apparition experience. That is so fun. Yeah. speaker-0: It was a very clear image of him. I can still see him. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ my God. Yeah, I'll definitely I'll have to look into that. That's crazy. And it's so interesting because, you know, he wouldn't have been on board the ship at any time when it was in California, you know, because I think it came to Los Angeles in like the sixties or something. ⁓ and then I think the ship was mainly in England, if I'm not mistaken. speaker-0: Think so. I'm tempted to look it up right now. Because d I I mean, I th I think Howard Hughes lived in Southern California or at least had a place there. Because I I think, yeah, you know, I don't know the history of it, but both the Spruce Goose and the Queen Mary, he I think he was an he engineered them or he designed them. He had something to do with their creation. And they were both in. speaker-1: ⁓ very good. speaker-0: The Long Beach area. I think the spruce goose went up. Actually I think it came up here to the Pacific Northwest. I wanna say maybe to Washington. ⁓ and I think the Queen Mary was also moved, but I I don't think they were from England, but I I could be wrong. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Okay. No, that's so ⁓ my god, that's really cool. Man, Howard Hughes. Scene not in the flesh but in the I don't know. The veil, we can say that. ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ there we go. ⁓ now I now I'm curious to know if it was around Sawin. I don't remember well enough. It may have been it may have been in the in the autumn where we had this particular event. Would not be surprised. speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. I have spoken you know, as someone who's obviously obsessed with the paranormal, I've spoken with ⁓ a couple of psychics over, you know, the course of my life. And I've always asked, because I've never seen a ghost, and every time I say that, hey, why have I never seen a ghost? They always say the same response, which is, you haven't needed to. So do you think that there was like there was maybe something that you were supposed to kind of gain out of this experience of seeing Howard? speaker-0: No, but I I don't know that I agree with you haven't needed to. I thought you might say that how do you know that you you haven't seen a ghost? speaker-1: That's a good point too. speaker-0: Because sometimes say it's it's a ghost of someone who passed just a few years ago. Their clothing isn't necessarily gonna be any different. Not necessarily gonna look out of place, depending on how clear it is. ⁓ yeah, I don't know that there was a a purpose to me seeing him. I think just I was in the right place at the right time when ⁓ speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: Either I d and I don't know enough about apparitions, if if they can make themselves a little clearer, or maybe I was just in a very clear space where I was more in tune or open. Open is what I should probably say. speaker-1: Hmm. ⁓ that's so cool. And the more I think about it, like 'cause you're from LA, like that's the peak like LA experience. It's like can be like, ⁓ how LA are you? Like speaker-0: A celebrity and a ghost. Wow. speaker-1: I got it. Yeah, two for one. But that that makes sense though, because yeah, God, LA is just so haunted. Wow. That's so cool. Man, thank you so much for sharing. I love that. speaker-0: Thanks for giving the opportunity to share that. I love that story. I love that experience. speaker-1: So cool. Alrighty. So, ⁓ where can people find you online? And like where can people find your work and all of that good stuff? speaker-0: I am very easy to find just SelenaMadden.com. ⁓ and I will have links to my Facebook, my Instagram. ⁓ those are the two social media platforms that I predominantly use. And I'll always have classes listed. You can get on my mailing list. ⁓ you can read a little bit about me. ⁓ I've also started launching some one-on-one coaching, so you can get information about that, but just selena madden.com. speaker-1: Perfect. Nice. Yeah, we love we love that. ⁓ so Dr. Selena Madden, do you have any last words? speaker-0: No, this has just been a great conversation. ⁓ yeah, I really enjoyed it. I feel like there's so many different directions we could have gone into so much more to just explore and enjoy. But ⁓ I'd say, you know, just for for people out there, this is a great podcast. We love talking about the things that we don't understand. So the paranormal, the psychological, the mythological, ⁓ and just keep exploring with curiosity. speaker-1: ⁓ perfect. Thank you so much for being here today. And on that note, goodbye. Thank you for listening to this episode of Spooky Butt. Music by Drew Mantia. Artwork by Lauren Seely. Listen to Spookybutt on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Please be sure to like, rate, and subscribe. Follow SpookyButt on Instagram at Spookybutt Podcast. Need to make contact? Send us an email at spookybuttpodcast at gmail.com. We'll see you on the other side. Goodbye.