Latest / Loud & Lifted / People-Pleasing at Work: Unlearning Good Girl Conditioning with Michelle Minnikin

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People-Pleasing at Work: Unlearning Good Girl Conditioning with Michelle Minnikin · Loud & Lifted

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Most of us were taught from a very young age
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to be good girls. Be nice, be helpful, don't
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make anyone uncomfortable, and definitely don't
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let anyone think that you're too much. Those
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qualities may earn us praise early in our careers,
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but eventually, being the agreeable person who
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always says yes can leave us overworked, undervalued,
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and quietly resentful. Today, I'm talking with
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Michelle Minikin, psychologist, coach, and author
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of Good Girl Deprogramming. We get into how this
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conditioning follows us into the workplace, why
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resentment may be the clearest sign that one
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of your boundaries is being crossed, and what
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it actually means to enter your villain era.
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And no, it doesn't mean becoming an asshole.
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It means becoming a little bit more comfortable
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with disappointing people and a lot more comfortable
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being yourself. Michelle, welcome to Loud and
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Lifted. Thank you so much for being here. Thank
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you so much for having me. I'm so excited about
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this conversation. I am so excited about this
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conversation too because sometimes you just see
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somebody or you read something that people write
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and you're like, oh, I love this person. I am
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totally aligned with what they're saying and
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how they're saying it. And you were one of those
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people. I saw some writings that you did on LinkedIn
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and, you know, you start off with that you're
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no fluff, right? Let you cut to how it really
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is. And my other favorite thing that you say
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is that you're burning the rule book and you're
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writing something better, which I can totally
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agree with. So I'm so excited for this conversation
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and to get into some of those thoughts that you
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have around that and some of the research you've
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done. So let's start with what I think is probably
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your core of what you talk about. And that is
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part of the challenges that we have as women
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is that we don't need fixed, but we need to remember
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who we are. And part of that is because we have
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been programmed to be good girls. So let's start
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with good girls. Tell us what that means and
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why did this happen to us? I'm gonna start, I'm
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gonna start saying something really controversial.
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So if the patriarchy was our natural way of living,
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we wouldn't have to do all of this conditioning
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people into being good girls. We would just allow
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people to be themselves. Anyway, so yeah, good
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girl conditioning, all the ways we're trained
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from birth, from that gender reveal, oh, it's
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gonna be a girl. to be nice, to be kind, to care,
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to share, to put everybody on the planet ahead
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of yourself and do not age. Aging is like cardinal
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sin. It's like you're not none of that, no thank
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you. And I was asked, how are we trained to be
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good girls? Interestingly enough, conditioning
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is pretty much the first thing I learned about
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when I was studying psychology at university.
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And I was like, I don't know. How has this happened?
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Anyway, this led to this whole big, huge quest
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to figure that out and effectively coercive control.
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They use various tactics. They, society, use
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very insidious, actually, tactics of coercion
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to get us to doubt ourselves and get us to behave
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in all of the ways. And you're right, it starts
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at such a young age and probably as parents,
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we've all been guilty of doing it and not even
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realizing it because that's the way we were raised.
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And it just becomes this generational challenge
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of, well, that's just the way we are and this
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is the way we operate. So, when we're getting
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this programming, right, through Good Girls,
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and again, I think back to like the younger days
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of having when my girls were young and being
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very aware of what was acceptable for boys and
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girls when they were like, let's say five, right?
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And the behavior, oh, he's just a boy. Oh, it's
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okay. He's hitting another kid or not listening.
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And meanwhile, the girls, of course, that behavior
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wasn't even acceptable when they were young.
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No. No, we treat we train our girls to be good
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and kind and polite and all of those things.
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And I'm not saying all of this is bad, by the
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way, because it's like, well, why wouldn't we
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want to be polite? Well, obviously, we have to
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live in community with each other and, you know,
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not be dicks. But boys are trained to be brave
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and to take risks. And they. Get away with and
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I'm guilty. I'm a I'm a boy mom, but not And
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Yeah, it's just boys would be boys boys will
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get muddy boys will you know be disruptive in
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class and we just We'll just do anything we can
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to prevent them having feelings Yeah, I totally,
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totally understand that. So let's go, let's fast
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forward through childhood, right? So now we're
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adults, we're entering the workforce. What does
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this look like if I show up to be a good girl
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professionally? Well, interestingly enough, they
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train us so well in the education system because
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what works for education, so you do your work,
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you do your study, you do your preparation, you
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make things as perfect as possible because you
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get in grades, but you also get feedback. You
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get very good feedback as well. So they train
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us so well to be good students, which is very
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intertwined with this good girl stuff. And then
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they fling us into organisations where we are
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not rewarded for planning and preparing and being
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perfect and taking our time and doing all of
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the extra stuff. We are then immediately told
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that we lack confidence, that we're not strategic
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enough, that we are not putting ourselves forward.
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We are either not confident enough, not assertive
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enough or too confident slash aggressive. And
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we have to... negotiate this tightrope of credibility
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versus likeability. So if you are too likeable,
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which was literally me because I developed into
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the, probably I would have won the Olympic champion's
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people pleasing competition, likeability, I made
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it my mission to get everybody to like me. Even
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if I didn't like them, it was insane. And then
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on the other side of it is if you are not likeable
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enough, but you're too credible. you know, if
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you're like too competent and too intelligent
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and too asking questions, if that's the thing,
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then you're on this tightrope of likable, credible,
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likable, and everybody has a different like preference
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for your likability and credibility. So for some
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you are, you just, it's exhausting. It is your
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subject to other people's judgment and it's completely
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unsustainable. We should just be able to go and
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do our work. go home without all of this extra
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thinking. Oh, that's so true. And, and the likable
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part of that, I can, I mean, all those things
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that you said have been said to me throughout
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my career, right? Like on both ends of the spectrum,
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you try to try to like compensate and become
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a little bit more of a badass or a little bit
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more of not so kind and that that backfire. So
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it's finding that balance. But it's funny. Part
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of the reason why your content really has stood
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out to me is because when I was probably 22,
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23, I was super like beginning of my career.
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And my manager at the time was definitely good
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girl, right? Like she everybody loved her. She
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was so sweet, super smart, but like just became
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the person that everybody dumped all their work
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on all the time. And she just, you know, was
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working herself into the ground, essentially.
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And she gave me a book, which I think was for
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her. She read it too, but you know, she's like,
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I just wish somebody would have told me this
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early in my career. And it was something like
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why good girls don't get ahead, but gutsy girls
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do. And we're talking like early nineties, this
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book was written, right? Like it didn't even
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have about like social media and all those things,
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but this was, this is my age, early nineties.
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But I remember 25 years later, that book and
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some of the pieces of that, how like, yeah, you're
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not gonna be rewarded for. I'm just always getting
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your job done. You'll get the pat on the back,
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right? You're going to get the good job. Thank
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you for, you know, your participation, but you're
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not going to excel in your career. But you have
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to have that balance of, you know, taking risks,
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being ambitious, being a little gutsy, essentially.
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So it's so funny to me that that was a concept
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that someone told me about so early in my career
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that if she did it and I would have just followed
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her lead of, you know, because I do genuinely
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want people to like me too. I've learned to be
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better about that as I've grown in the leadership
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perspective. But you do, you have that like I
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just I tend to get along with people. I tend
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to like people. I tend to be able to build relationships.
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So as I was growing in my career, and of course,
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everyone's not gonna like you, that's just not
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even possible. Like it was this sort of culture
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shock of like, oh, wait, okay, so everyone's
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not gonna think I'm sunshine and roses and gray,
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even if I am being like so nice, because whether
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they're jealous or whatever it is. So when we're
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in that situation, like, what do we what do we
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do as women, right? Like, how do we balance all
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those things that you just said, because it's
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it's you can't please everybody. And at some
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point, you just got to go back and be true to
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who you are. So how do we do that? Because it's
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like, holy shit, that sounds so overwhelming.
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And people pick my book up and I'm like, oh,
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that's a lot. And then they put it down and then
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they don't ever come back to it sometimes. It's
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like, just keep going. It's baby steps. And it's
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baby steps because I had so many people saying
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to me, you just need better boundaries. I'm like,
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where do you get boundaries? Can you get them
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in Walmart? I don't know. I say Tesco's to when
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I talk to people in the UK, but Walmart. It's
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like, it's tiny things. It's noticing. So one
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of the interesting things is We are trained to
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completely disregard our bodies. We don't listen
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to them. We don't listen to our very intelligent,
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you know, millions of years of evolution and
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intelligence that we keep in every part of our
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body. We just, you know, our bodies are tired,
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but we keep going. You know, we need something
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to eat, but we keep going. We think, oh, this
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is a bit of a dodgy one, but we ignore that because
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we don't want to be biased. And it's like it's
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literally we just spend our entire lives ignoring
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our body, our feelings, our emotions, all of
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our stuff. So I think the first thing you do
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is start noticing. But dispassionately, because.
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we are very good at like oh my goodness I am
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rubbish because I just people pleased or I said
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yes when I meant no and like don't go to war
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with those inner critic voices they are literally
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there they have been designed for those who have
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I was amazed when I found out people don't have
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loads of different voices in their heads like
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anyway that is an aside but it's just it's it's
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Those voices are there to protect you. Right
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or wrongly. Right. And it's all about integration.
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It's all about noticing, noticing how you are
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feeling. Notice instead of like all of this numbing
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that we do. It's like, oh, I feel sad. I'm going
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to eat some crisps, chips. Well, and part of
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it too is that we're rewarded for that, right?
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Like when you are busting your ass and you're
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working overtime hours and you're, you know,
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you're balancing, not even balancing, juggling,
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you know, work life home, all those things, like
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we're rewarded for that behavior. And then it's
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like that just, well, that's what I should do.
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And that kind of fuels you to keep going and
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keep doing that. I know. And then... we wonder
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why we are burning out at ridiculous rates. We
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wonder why when we hit menopause women are leaving
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or getting pushed out of organisations because
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we literally cannot cope with all of the other
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things as well as our body and brains doing all
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sorts of weird and wonderful things. It is unsustainable
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and we are burning people out. We are not living.
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We are barely surviving as a population. Do you
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see this more in high achieving women? Yeah.
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Yes. And also neurodivergent women. It's well
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different. Yeah, I think they're my two main
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groups. Okay, that makes sense. Some people are
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happy just to plod and say no to people. Some
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people don't have this good girl conditioning
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as well. Some people just totally skip the memos
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and I really admire those people. Right. Good
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for them. We are jealous of you. I know. It's
12:30
like not jealous. So if someone's listening to
12:35
this and they're thinking, am I a good girl?
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What would be, especially professionally, what
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are those signs that if you're a good girl, if
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you're doing or seeing this, what would be some
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of those signs for someone if they're listening
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to this and they're probably such a good girl
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that they're not even sure if they are because
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they don't see that? Your number one emotion
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feeling to notice is resentment. when you're
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starting to feel resentment and bitterness because
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you've said yes when you meant no, you've taken
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on more work when you don't have the capacity
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and when somebody says they're going to do something
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and then they don't and then you have then you're
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the asshole because you have to chase them for
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it. It's that it's the noticing the resentment
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because when you notice the resentment is a sign
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your body's intelligent sign that you are having
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one of your boundaries squished that's the first
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that's the first thing to do it's like figure
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out just notice notice when you're feeling resentment
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make a note of that make a note of who it was
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what it was and then you can sort of excavate
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what your boundaries are because it's like it
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all starts it all starts with that so yeah if
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you're if you're a walking ball of rage maybe
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Maybe not my bit. Well, you've watched the news
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channel, but you know. So. That no, that's that's
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totally fair. That makes sense. And so if if
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if someone sees that, right, and they feel that,
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yes, I feel like I have this rage, I definitely
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like I'm told I'm easy to work with, or I'm super,
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you know, collaborative, and all those things.
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I always feel like those are like warning signs,
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right? When people are talking about how easy
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you are to work with. And of course, you said
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like the boundaries piece, but we can't go buy
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those at Walmart. And it's funny, we talk about
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boundaries a lot on this podcast, because it's
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something that we struggle with. And it's not
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going to be flipping the switch tomorrow, right?
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And suddenly like putting up these walls and
14:33
barriers all around you. I mean, that would be
14:35
amazing, but people think you've lost your damn
14:37
mind. So it's the baby steps, but what do we
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do? Do we have conversations with people? Like,
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do we just slowly start having little wins? Like,
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how do we start to move forward? So kind of the
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driving force behind boundaries is this notion
14:53
of self -love. as much love into yourself as
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you possibly can. So, my favourite boundary story
15:04
is with my, it's experiments. So some people
15:08
need a conversation, some people you just need
15:10
to stop doing it. Some people you just need to
15:13
start saying no to. But my favourite thing is
15:15
just perform a little experiment, see what would
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happen if. And again, just passionately, just.
15:21
Channel your inner scientist with a white coat
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and a clipboard maybe some like safety goggles
15:26
because you know my favorite story is when I
15:29
was writing the book so I was living with my
15:32
partner and When we first started dating he was
15:36
he came to my house. It was my house He came
15:38
day he came to my house and we started working
15:40
together at all because we like things to be
15:42
really complicated here and So when he he was
15:46
always the one coming into my space and I was
15:50
taught that if you're the hostess that you do
15:53
make the drinks so making teas and coffees and
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we were living together this was like pandemic
16:00
time so you know he made the decision to move
16:04
in or he was never going to see me and i was
16:07
writing the book and i realized that he had never
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made me one cup of tea or coffee in our entire
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relationship and i was like what and i was like
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okay This is interesting information. So I performed
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and my hypothesis was James was completely able
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to make me a cup of tea. I just wasn't letting
16:29
him or asking. So I was like, OK, I'm going to
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perform experiments and for the next seven days
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I'm going to ask him for a cup of tea every day.
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And he did. And there was no fight. There was
16:40
no argument. He just got a cup of tea and gave
16:44
me it. And I was like, wow. Imagine if we could
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ask for more things. How was his response the
16:52
first time? So I didn't tell him till probably
16:55
about five days in and I like burst out laughing
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and he was like, you're being weirder than normal.
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What is going on? And I said, well, I'm just
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performing this little experiment. Just, and
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this is what happened and it wasn't your fault.
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So this is, I was not blaming him because this
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was me. I created this monster. was a tiny monster,
17:15
but it's just little things. So he thought it
17:17
was funny as well, because it's like, oh, that's
17:19
really funny, because. Well, and it's that expectation,
17:22
right? Like you just became, it became a habit.
17:24
He wasn't being malicious or trying to be lazy
17:27
or anything. It just became your routine and
17:29
the habit. And no one was really thinking about
17:32
it. Like, and then he took a step back and you're
17:34
like, I want my coffee. Yeah, it's insane. And
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as I was saying, when we first came on, my partner's
17:41
three months ago ruptured his Achilles so he's
17:43
not been able to drive or do shopping or cook
17:47
or all of these things and I have really realised
17:51
how much he does for me so I feel like a lot
17:53
more grateful for him because I'm having to do
17:56
all of the things and I'm very much looking forward
17:58
to him being able to do all of the things because
18:01
I really like him doing all the things and I
18:03
think that's nice. I think that's nice too. But
18:07
you're right. We do that at home and we do that
18:10
at work. Like I am guilty on both fronts. Probably
18:12
more at home I have been guilty through the years
18:14
versus work where you just become in these habits
18:17
and you just don't want to, for whatever reason,
18:19
it's control. You don't want to deal with it.
18:21
Or like now with my kids, like I know they're
18:22
going to do it half ass. So I don't want to have
18:24
to go through the fight. So I just do things.
18:26
So I don't delegate. that behavior is one thing
18:29
at work or at home. But when we do it at work,
18:31
it's a whole other level of then you become the
18:34
worker bee. People just keep dumping work on
18:36
you because they know you're going to do it.
18:38
So that's being an executor and a coordinator
18:42
is great. And there's a time for that. But if
18:44
your goal is to be in leadership and to be, you
18:46
know, a higher level position, that's not what
18:49
a higher level position is known for. So it's
18:52
like that the good girl mentality will get you.
18:55
to a certain spot, right? But then you're not
18:57
going to be a high level director, a VP. You're
19:00
not going to run the company being a good girl.
19:03
There's limits. Because people don't notice you
19:05
because you are such a safe pair of hands. And
19:10
yeah, we just sit around waiting for somebody
19:13
to put the crown on our heads rather than actually
19:14
going for it. So I read a book years ago, Meredith
19:18
Feynman Bragg Better, and in that book I learnt
19:22
that we are supposed to have career conversations
19:24
and we are supposed to talk about the work that
19:26
we've done and we're supposed to do a little
19:28
bit of bragging and good girls don't brag. Ah
19:33
true. So that has been really interesting for
19:38
me working for myself it's like oh I wrote for
19:40
myself I don't want to tell people about my achievements
19:42
because other people think I'm some sort of braggie
19:45
weirdo on the internet and it's like the reframe
19:48
for that for me was There's some women that are
19:52
really struggling with this good girl stuff and
19:55
because they don't know you exist, you are being
19:59
a selfish bitch. I've said that word for ages.
20:04
So that reframe is like, I have a duty to tell
20:08
people about all of the good work that I do because
20:10
I can actually help people and because I'm a
20:14
psychologist, I measure how much I help them.
20:20
It's not about being more confident, it's about
20:23
being more safe in your own body and that you
20:26
can perform confidence because if you feel safe
20:30
you are confident. Oh, that's so true. And, you
20:34
know, you brought up a really good point. I had
20:35
a coaching session with a young woman yesterday
20:38
who's very early in her career. And, you know,
20:40
I don't want to say she needs to prove herself,
20:41
but she needs to get the exposure or the visibility.
20:44
And she's very confident. She's confident, but
20:46
she doesn't want to promote herself. And she
20:49
literally said that. She's like, oh, I just don't
20:51
want to come across as being like that I'm full
20:53
of myself or that I'm cocky. I said the fact
20:55
that you even ask that or say that means that
20:58
You're far from that. The fact that you're acknowledging
21:00
that and you're concerned, like, you're not going
21:01
to come across as being arrogant or that you're
21:04
bragging about what you're doing because you're
21:05
already aware of that. I said, but that's that
21:08
whole visibility and exposure. Again, that's
21:10
a theme that comes up time and time and time,
21:11
time and time again on these episodes because
21:14
it is. It's one of those things, biggest keys
21:16
that I think women struggle with because you
21:18
don't want to rock the boat or take away the
21:20
spotlight from someone else and you're not. But
21:22
I love that it's being selfish if you're not,
21:25
you know, saying who you are and what you do.
21:27
That's a very interesting concept. The other
21:30
thing that you talk about that I love is being
21:31
in your villain error. So tell me about what
21:34
that means when you're in your villain error.
21:36
Well, you have to be okay with people not liking
21:39
you. So it's honestly, if 10 years ago me could
21:44
see me now, somebody had a weird sales call a
21:49
month or so ago and somebody basically wrote
21:51
me a really, I would say passive aggressive,
21:53
that's a fairly aggressive email to say that
21:56
I was. I was aggressive. Like, ooh, it's all
21:59
projection. Anyway, um, aggressive, sexist. I
22:03
made a joke about liking bossing men around.
22:06
Like, okay. Um, that apparently is sexist. And
22:10
the other one was angry. It's like, lady, if
22:14
you're not angry at all of the things, then I
22:20
think you've got your head in the sand a little
22:22
bit. And I... would have justified, I would have,
22:27
you know, apologised for hurting her feelings
22:29
and I was, it was a pleasant call. It was, you
22:32
know, I came off the call, I was like, oh, that
22:33
was a bit weird. There wasn't any kind of like,
22:35
oh, that was awful. And I was okay with it. I
22:41
was okay with her not liking me. I was okay with
22:44
her then telling some people who I've known for
22:47
years that I was unprofessional because I tried
22:50
to sell out my programme on a call that I thought
22:52
was a sales call. And that was about the level
22:58
of the reaction, just a bit of a sigh. And being
23:02
okay with not being liked and knowing that your
23:06
people will love you because you love you. Because
23:15
the worst thing at school anyone could say to
23:18
about a girl is, oh my goodness, she totally
23:21
loves herself. It's like... It might be an English
23:26
thing. But yeah, it's like, why wouldn't we love
23:29
ourselves? Society does not want women to love
23:32
themselves because society wouldn't be able to
23:34
extract all of the labour, the free labour, out
23:36
of women if we loved ourselves. So yeah, that's
23:41
kind of the thing. And so the word, I think you
23:44
wanted me to say... when i was hunting around
23:47
for what is the opposite of a good girl i was
23:49
like oh six months of like diving into all of
23:52
this stuff like what is the opposite of good
23:54
girl and i came across the world the word unfuck
23:58
with a bull i'm sorry yeah and then i went to
24:02
the urban dictionary because it's not the actual
24:04
dictionary so the urban dictionary which is a
24:06
valid dictionary honestly it helps me communicate
24:09
with my 16 year old boy sometimes and it says
24:12
something along the lines of when you are so
24:15
rooted and grounded in yourself that nothing
24:17
anybody can say or do can knock you off your
24:20
throne. And I was like, that is the opposite
24:23
of a good girl. That is such a good definition.
24:27
And I feel like we need to get that in the regular
24:28
dictionary too, because that's true, right? How
24:33
do we do that? There's gotta be a way to submit
24:35
that. But that's what it all comes down to, right?
24:37
You're going to have people who dislike you,
24:39
sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for not,
24:41
right? There's going to be good and bad reasons.
24:44
And sometimes it's jealousy, or we can get into
24:45
a whole other rabbit hole of why people might
24:48
not like you. But you're just not going to be
24:49
everyone's cup of tea. And I have such a hard
24:52
time saying the word unfuckwithable. I think
24:54
I said it right. Unfuckwithable, yay! See, I'm
24:56
just going to keep saying it. It's true. And
24:58
it's funny, having teen daughters, so much of
25:01
this when we talk about things, I go back to
25:02
my teen daughters who are 18 and 15, right? The
25:05
18 year old's going to college this week. And
25:07
when I think about those things that I want to
25:10
instill that I hope that, you know, she's going
25:12
to mess up, she's going to make bad choices,
25:13
all those things. But I do, I want them to be
25:15
unfuckable because there's going to be people
25:18
in situations and just shit that comes their
25:21
way. And it's just, it's just dealing with it.
25:24
Yeah. Absolutely. This is a much better word
25:29
than one of the biggest things that I think we
25:32
have heard here, especially in the States over
25:34
the last couple of years, is the whole let them,
25:37
right? But the Mel Robbins, and to me, that's
25:40
almost passive. I think there's situations and
25:42
times when you should let them and let it go
25:45
is another one that I think has resonated with
25:47
me thanks to Frozen, how many years ago. But
25:51
I feel like with your word, it's more grounded
25:55
and it's more like, I'm not gonna let people
25:57
walk over, walk all over me either. Like I'm
25:59
gonna stand my ground and I'm just gonna be okay
26:02
with who I am. I think, let it go, I sing that
26:06
a lot, mostly at myself. Somebody didn't indicate,
26:11
yes. But yeah, I think they do have, sometimes.
26:18
you can't control the situation. So I spent the
26:21
entire pandemic drawing those three concentric
26:23
circles at the middle of stuff I can control,
26:26
stuff that I can influence and stuff that I can't
26:28
control. I spent the whole like, all of my clients
26:30
were like, right, we need to do the three circles.
26:32
It's almost like the three seashells from that
26:35
weird, yeah, different thing. Because it is all
26:39
about control. So sometimes you just need to
26:41
let them because you have no control over that.
26:44
Sometimes you need to... let some stuff go because
26:48
you can't be dragging around stuff that people
26:50
were mean to you like 20 years ago you just need
26:52
to let that shit go really so there is there
26:55
is elements but this you know i am here i am
26:58
sovereign i am on my throne you can throw whatever
27:02
you want at me and i i will choose how to respond
27:07
rather than i will react so sometimes i will
27:11
match energy Oh, that's especially on the internet
27:17
become a little proper menace. Only if they deserve
27:20
it. And then I play with them for a little bit
27:22
and then then I delete and block them. You know
27:24
what was really fascinating? I spent probably
27:27
six to eight months before the book came out,
27:31
preparing myself for people to hate me. Literally,
27:34
I thought I was going to get kicked out of the
27:36
British Psychological Society because I put swear
27:38
words in a book. I was like, I was like being
27:41
like super dramatic about the whole thing. I've
27:44
had one bad review on Amazon. And, you know,
27:49
you can read the first 20 pages of the book.
27:51
So it's like, you're the idiot. If you think
27:54
my writing's horrendous, it's entirely your fault
27:58
for buying it. And then Well, actually, the occasional
28:03
woman comes along to tell me to stop swearing
28:04
on the internet. And I was just like, dude, this
28:07
is my space. This is my internet. This is my
28:10
version of the internet. I didn't, you know,
28:11
if you choose to come into my environment. Who
28:14
comes at you more, men or women online? Interesting.
28:20
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. A thousand percent men
28:22
come to tell me that I'm wrong all the time,
28:24
which is fine. It's like, oh, let's... Yeah,
28:26
my facts and research and evidence base is like
28:29
totally in the way some men's feelings. So it's
28:31
like, that's super interesting. But if you're
28:34
trying to deprogram the good girls, that impacts
28:36
men. Oh, yes. And men are conditioned too, in
28:40
like, in terrible ways also. And everyone's like,
28:43
when are you going to write the book for men?
28:44
And I used to say, oh, yes, it's coming. I'm
28:47
like, absolutely. I'm not writing the book for
28:48
men. I can't. How can you write the book for
28:52
men? I'm not a man. I haven't lived, I haven't
28:54
been conditioned. You know, so that's ridiculous.
28:57
So somebody else needs to do that and it's not
28:58
going to be me. Yeah. And I feel like people
29:00
would really come at you. So let's keep you safe.
29:03
Here's all of the ways that men are conditioned
29:05
to be, I call it model man as well, because it's
29:08
not like, it's not good boys. It's, it's this,
29:12
you know, your father, your father passes away
29:14
and at the funeral, all of the adults are saying,
29:16
you're the man of the house. You're four. You
29:19
know, it's that, that's how men are raised to
29:22
behave. I don't know why I did that, but anyway.
29:25
Yeah, no, that that's that's very true. That's
29:28
no that that makes sense So for the woman listening
29:31
who realizes she's spending an enormous amount
29:33
of energy making sure everyone's okay with her
29:36
What's the one thing you want her to practice
29:38
this week? It's always a noticing notice when
29:41
you feeling resentful Because that will tell
29:45
you so much. So just listen listen to your emotions
29:49
because They know our body knows but we've been
29:52
trained not to listen And when we do that, what
29:54
becomes possible for us? I don't believe that
30:00
we can have it all. I think that was an absolute
30:04
load of nonsense. You have to choose which parts
30:07
of it you want and what scaffolding that you
30:10
can put around yourself. And it's so easy to
30:14
compare yourself to women you think have it all,
30:16
but you look behind the curtain. Wizard of Oz
30:20
style and notice that they have housekeepers
30:23
and PAs and drivers and chefs and They're having
30:28
all because they have all the people to have
30:30
all I just read yesteryear. Oh my goodness. My
30:33
mind is blown. You need to read it Okay. Yeah,
30:37
no, you're right. No one I don't think anyone
30:38
has it all and all at the same time, right? There's
30:41
there's highs and lows and everything, but no
30:42
one is doing it alone. Even if you're amazing,
30:46
whether you're paying for it or support professionally,
30:48
whatever it is, no one is doing it alone. And
30:50
I think us getting over this mindset of the good
30:54
girl mentality of thinking, we're going to be
30:56
the superhero of our own story. It's not humanly
31:01
possible. No, and there's so much pressure on
31:03
it as well. Ugh, that's so crazy. Well, Michelle,
31:06
this has been so great. If people want to connect
31:08
with you, find your books, where is the best
31:10
place to do that? Oh, I've got one of those beautifully
31:13
unique names. I do know there's three Michelle
31:16
Menikins on the planet, but you will very quickly
31:18
find me. I spend too much time on LinkedIn, so
31:22
that's where I will be playing. Awesome. Perfect.
31:25
Well, we will connect all of that in the show
31:27
notes. And thank you so much for being here.
31:28
I really enjoyed this. You too. Michelle made
31:30
such an important point in this conversation.
31:32
You don't wake up one morning with perfect boundaries
31:35
and suddenly stop caring what everyone thinks.
31:37
Deprogramming the good girl happens in small
31:40
moments. It starts by noticing the resentment,
31:44
pausing before you automatically say yes, asking
31:47
for the coffee instead of always being the one
31:49
who makes it, and maybe letting someone be a
31:51
little disappointed without rushing to fix it.
31:55
Being a good person and being a good girl are
31:58
not the same thing. You can still be thoughtful,
32:01
supportive, and kind without abandoning yourself
32:04
in the process. You can find Michelle's book,
32:07
Good Girl Deprogramming, and more information
32:09
about her work at michelleminikin .com. We'll
32:12
link everything in the show notes. And if this
32:14
episode made you recognize a few of your own
32:16
good girl habits, send it to another woman who
32:18
may need to hear it too. Make sure you follow
32:20
Loud and Lifted wherever you listen so you don't
32:22
miss what's coming next. Until next time, stay
32:25
loud and keep lifting.