Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Virginia Kase Solomon - Tackling Trump’s Rampant Corruption & Pay To Play Politics

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Interview Only w/ Virginia Kase Solomon - Tackling Trump’s Rampant Corruption & Pay To Play Politics · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast, or simply use the promo code
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  Speaker 1: podcast at checkout. This is a sponsor I absolutely embrace,
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  Speaker 1: so use that code well. As many of you know,
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  Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to reforming governments, bringing some
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: transparency and focus into maybe codifying norms and dealing with
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: the ethical breakdowns that I feel like politics has been
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: teeming with lately. I wanted to dive into some of
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: the the advocacy groups that are out there that have
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: been doing this for a while and trying to figure out,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you know, why does it seem to be harder to
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  Speaker 1: get elected officials focused on government reform. So joining me
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  Speaker 1: now is the tenth president of Common Cause. It's Virginia Solomon, Virginia.
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  Speaker 1: It's nice to meet you.
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  Speaker 2: It's nice to meet you toactic. Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: So I will confess. When I think of common Cause,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I think of Watergate. And I know that common Cause
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: technically started before Watergate, but in many ways, Fred Worthheimer
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: sort of the legendary figure at common Cause, not the founder,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: but certainly put his stamp on it. And then some
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  Speaker 1: over the years in the post Watergate era, common Cause
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  Speaker 1: sort of the was the engine of producing you know,
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  Speaker 1: what can we do to make government more transparent, more,
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  Speaker 1: you know, a little less captured by special interest us
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  Speaker 1: And you know, like any organization, it's had to evolve
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  Speaker 1: over the years, and I know that you guys are evolving.
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  Speaker 1: And so let me just start before we dive into
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  Speaker 1: sort of today. How would you describe common Cause to
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  Speaker 1: somebody who's perhaps listening to my podcast twenty six, twenty
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  Speaker 1: seven years old, and maybe doesn't you know Watergate is
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  Speaker 1: as relevant to them as teapot Dome is to me.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So we like to describe ourselves as the ones
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  Speaker 2: who hold power accountable. We call ourselves the People's Lobby
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  Speaker 2: because we recognize that special interests, big corporations, everybody has
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  Speaker 2: their interests being represented in Washington, except for everyday people
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  Speaker 2: who are impacted by a lot of the decisions that
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  Speaker 2: are made, and so we're an army of over a
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  Speaker 2: million members throughout the country. We're in every congressional district,
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  Speaker 2: and these are everyday folks who are joining with us
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  Speaker 2: to address issues both locally and in their states as
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  Speaker 2: well as federally, and so being able to address corruption
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  Speaker 2: because corruption doesn't happened in Washington, that's a misnomer. We
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  Speaker 2: see this all over the country. We see it happening
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  Speaker 2: in states. In every state house, there are lobbyists, There
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  Speaker 2: are people who have undue influence in ways that is
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  Speaker 2: so disproportionate to the everyday voter that we feel like
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  Speaker 2: this is our mission, this is our purpose to make
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  Speaker 2: sure that government is doing what it's doing should be doing,
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  Speaker 2: and that we're holding power accountable.
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  Speaker 1: I will just say my bias when I think about
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  Speaker 1: Common Cause has always been on the issue of campaign
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  Speaker 1: finance reform. Yeah. Is that is that as much of
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  Speaker 1: a focus today as you would argue it was maybe
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  Speaker 1: in the early part of the late twentieth and early
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  Speaker 1: twenty first century.
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  Speaker 2: I think yes and no. I think what we've seen though,
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  Speaker 2: is that post Citizens United, there were a lot of
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: people who just kind of threw their hands up and said, well,
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  Speaker 2: we can't really do anything about it now.
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  Speaker 1: So let's see if we I don't want to put
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  Speaker 1: my hands up, Yeah, what do you do? What do
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  Speaker 1: you do? I mean, you know, I have certainly stopped
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  Speaker 1: believing that there is that limits on campaign finance reform work.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, And so we have to look at
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  Speaker 2: it through I think a twenty first century lens, right,
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  Speaker 2: And I think what's happening right now is horrible as
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  Speaker 2: it is when we see the amount of corporate influence
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  Speaker 2: that's happening, particularly with this administration in Washington. But it's
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  Speaker 2: not limited to that, right, Like, let's be very real.
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  Speaker 2: Corporations have had influence for a very long time. It's
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  Speaker 2: just gotten worse since citizens united and so thinking about
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  Speaker 2: kind of new and innovative ways to change that. So,
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  Speaker 2: for example, the CAP the Center for American Progress, they
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  Speaker 2: have had this theory for some time that actually just
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  Speaker 2: passed in Hawaii, one of our states that we're working with,
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  Speaker 2: where secretaries of state actually get to dictate the rules
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  Speaker 2: of corporations who are registered in that state, right, so
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  Speaker 2: being able so they just little known thing people don't
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  Speaker 2: even know. It's actually in the House in Montana right.
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  Speaker 1: Now, This done a lot of attention in Montana. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, changing the rules as to whether or not they
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  Speaker 2: can make those political contributions. So when you see things
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  Speaker 2: like that, this is an innovative solution, not something that
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  Speaker 2: anybody had thought about. But yet here we are in
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  Speaker 2: Hawaii the first one to try it out. Montana will
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  Speaker 2: be number two to figure out how do we change
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  Speaker 2: the rules.
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  Speaker 1: Articulate what the rule is, because I think I understand it,
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  Speaker 1: which means you have to be incorporated in the state
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  Speaker 1: if you want to be able to contribute. Is that
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  Speaker 1: what it is?
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  Speaker 2: Well, no, no, this actually turns it all upside down.
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  Speaker 2: So let's take the state like Delaware. I'll give it
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  Speaker 2: because it's not happening in Delaware yet.
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  Speaker 1: Well, they've only got more companies registered there than any
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  Speaker 1: other so that's an interesting to pick, So let's pick it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like Delaware has more corporate entities than probably
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  Speaker 2: any other state in the country. In order to be
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  Speaker 2: incorporated in the state, you go through either the Secretary
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  Speaker 2: of State or whatever their process is for becoming an
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  Speaker 2: entity in that state. That is where you incorporate, That's
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  Speaker 2: where you get all of your irs designation that is
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  Speaker 2: where you get your licenses to operate in that state.
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  Speaker 2: But you have to be incorporated in a state within
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  Speaker 2: the United States of America. That is where your company exists,
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  Speaker 2: and so they can be in all these other places.
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  Speaker 2: You'll do your designations to be able to operate in
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  Speaker 2: other states, but your home state is where your company,
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  Speaker 2: your company is created. Instead of just going through and
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: thinking about I'm trying to think of the best way
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  Speaker 2: to describe this. So you're registering in this state, that
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  Speaker 2: they determine all the rules for how you get to
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  Speaker 2: operate in that state. Okay, so that's all the rules.
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  Speaker 2: Now what they can do is change the those rules
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  Speaker 2: to say, in order to be incorporated in our state,
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  Speaker 2: you can do all these things, but you can't give
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  Speaker 2: political donations, or you can't contribute to political campaigns over
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  Speaker 2: a certain amount of money, or whatever those rules are
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  Speaker 2: that they want to determine. In the case of Hawaii,
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  Speaker 2: they said, you're not going to be able to make
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  Speaker 2: political donations in order. It's a risk for the state
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  Speaker 2: in some ways because there is a fear for some
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  Speaker 2: that companies will then go to another state. Right, they'll
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  Speaker 2: just move. But at the end of the day. The
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  Speaker 2: state is actually the one who determines how you get
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  Speaker 2: to operate as a corporation in the state that you
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  Speaker 2: are registered in. By taking their ability to do that,
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  Speaker 2: they can no longer be registered in your state if
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  Speaker 2: they're going to be making these contributions.
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  Speaker 1: So I get it, I think, but let me be
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  Speaker 1: captain skeptic here, and it goes to I've always described
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  Speaker 1: this about sort of my sort of evolution on this
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: over watching attempts to you just find gold is such
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  Speaker 1: a great example of how this happened. There's this there's
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  Speaker 1: this line in the movie Jurassic Park and it's the
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Jeff Goldblum character and the old man is bragging about
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  Speaker 1: how we've made it. These dinosaurs can't mate, don't know,
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  Speaker 1: they're all the same gender. There's no way they're going
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  Speaker 1: to procreate. And Jeff Gobloom says, life finds a way.
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  Speaker 1: And the story of campaign money in my lifetime, going
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  Speaker 1: back to every rough form that we came up with,
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  Speaker 1: money has found a way, right like you you stop
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  Speaker 1: it in one place, somebody come find something in the
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  Speaker 1: tax code and we go to a you know, first
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  Speaker 1: it was five twenty seven's because that was the number
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  Speaker 1: in the tax code that they used, and it became
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: five oh ones, then five O three's and five O four's. Right,
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  Speaker 1: it's all these little little entities in the tax code
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  Speaker 1: that people have now overinterpreted of what you can do
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  Speaker 1: with money like that, and you don't have to report
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  Speaker 1: it right away and all the this stuff. Yeah, and
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  Speaker 1: my fear of the system you've just designed. So company
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  Speaker 1: X is fine, I'm not going to incorporate there. I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to incorporate somebody else. I'm going to write this
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  Speaker 1: check to some entity called Americans for America and Americans
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  Speaker 1: for America. The super pac isn't going to report that
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  Speaker 1: donation and they're going to go right back and be
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  Speaker 1: able to spend that money in Hawaii. Why am I
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  Speaker 1: tell me why I'm being too cynical?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: If you think you're not being too cynical, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: the reality is, I think that we have to experiment
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: with as many ways or opportunities to figure out how
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: do we plug some of the holes in the dike,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: you know, and how But it does feel at times
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: like we're playing whack a mole with.
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  Speaker 1: The money I mean you come up with. I mean, look,
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  Speaker 1: there is now growing consensus among sort of whatever you
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: want to call people like me. I call myself a
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: political anthropologist these days, but sort of people that are
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: sort of watched this stuff for living and reported on
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: it that McCain Feinegel had more negative unintended consequences than positive. Right,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: taking money out of the two parties turned out to
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: hide that big money. Right, there was a time where
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: we knew who was writing the checks. Then when we
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: told the two major parties they couldn't do this, it
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: moved elsewhere. And then it did something else that we
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: weren't fully appreciative of till so we say about the
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: last ten years, which is when parties no longer became
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: the epicenter of money. They also lost the ability to
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: vet candidates and decide who would make a good standing
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Republican or Democrat and wouldn't right it sort of it
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: took And now some might say, well, that's good, the
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: party shouldn't have that control. And yet there's been arguments
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: that we've had some bad actors end up get elected
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  Speaker 1: because political parties had no ability to sort of say, hey,
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  Speaker 1: this person's not good for the country.
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  Speaker 2: Well, yes, and I mean and I think one of
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  Speaker 2: the things that we have to really think about in
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  Speaker 2: this moment is that we have to seek solutions and
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: we don't always know what the unintended consequences of those
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: solutions will be. But at the end of the day,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: in a democracy, if we're saying that we want to
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: be able to have a healthy, thriving democracy, we know
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: that it can't be up to the person who has
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: the most money to determine what that democracy looks like.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: And so at times I feel like we're trying different solutions.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: They might not all work, but it's just like ranked
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: choice voting, for example. There are people who say ranked
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: choice voting is like the end all be all. I'm
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: not one of those people. I think ranked choice voting
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: is great in certain places, but is it a one
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: size fits all. And so I do think that the
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: more creative that we can be around thinking about or
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: stop to stop thinking about silver bullet solutions to everything.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's part of the challenge that we have
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: in this country is that we're always looking for a
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: silver bullet and the reality is it's a whole bunch
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: of different things that we need to do.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Well, here's the good news on this issue, and This
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: is another reason why I want to do on is
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: that I can't believe how many bipartisan calls I'm hearing
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: now to do something about money in politics, and it's
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: sort of refreshing, right, I'm you know, take my friend
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: the former governor of Ohio, John Kaisik, who fifteen years
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: ago would have never talked about campaign finance reform. Pat McCrory,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: the former governor of North Carolina, who fifteen years ago
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: admits would never have thought about campaign finance reform, right,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: sort of stuck to the talking point of Republicans of
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: that era. No, that isn't necessary and all this stuff,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: And now they both It takes becoming a victim of dark,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: big money for people to see the light sometimes. And
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: I say this, you know, look to be life is
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: about experiences, and if we're as long as you learn
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: from your experiences, then you're living a good life. Right.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: So I do think there's a large agreement now, whether
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: it's elected officials or just rank and file on both
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: sides of the aisle, who have identified that money's got
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: too much power right now in politics. So that's step one. Right,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: you can if you've got consensus that you have to
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: do something. Then you're there. Have you been able to
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: translate this yet? I mean, have you noticed this yourself
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: that suddenly hete there are more people from the right
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: side of the aisle, suddenly kind of interested in some
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: campaign solutions on this campaign finance front.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, at this state level. And I will say I'm trying.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: I always try to figure out because I don't like
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: to paint a monolith of any group. I think it's
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: the Republicans who were kind of in the desert, wandering
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: the desert right now looking for their party.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: There's a little bit of that, and I certainly describe
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: two people that probably would not have gotten endorsements or
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: actually did not get endorsements from dear leader.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: So yes, So I think that, yes, there are people
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: who I think are people who are of good intent,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: who have different political beliefs than myself, for example, but
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: who also believe in the promise of this country and
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: realize that we're on this runaway train and we have
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: to figure out a way to stop it or at
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: least pull the brakes. And so yes, I have seen that,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: particularly at the state level. I think the ones that
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: we're not seeing are quite frankly the people who were
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: standing on the diet is behind President Trump when he
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: was on election.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I laugh about this. I've noticed
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: people say, oh, big tech is now republican. I said,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: big tech was never democrat or republican. Big tech was
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: just going to give money whoever was in power. And
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: it was the mistake the left made about their relationship
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: with big tech at the time. And I think they've
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: learned a hard lesson. But I would tell my friends
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: on the right, guess what the many you're not in
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: power not going to be that interested in you either. No.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I mean it's it's there's a politics of convenience, whatever
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: is going to help you and your business, especially when
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: that is what we live.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Great phrase, by the way, politics of convenience.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it really is a and so it's
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: what is convenient for me, What is going to be
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: the lowest threshold for me right now? I mean, if
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: you give a few million dollars to help build a ballroom,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: which may or may not be happening because now the
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: taxpayers may be paying for that, but depending on what
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: you're able to do. It's just this constant quid pro
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: quo because we're running the country as if it's a
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: corporation in this moment. And they're not stupid people. The
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: people who run these companies, they know exactly what they're doing,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: and it is politics of convenience. It is convenient for
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: me to be able to get what to give a
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: little bit of money away to get what I need.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: They're they're not stupid. But the problem, I think is
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: that when those corporate interests and those people who are
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: you know, when capitalism has more of a voice in
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: this country than the people who are impacted every day
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: individuals who live here, there's a real problem there. And
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: I think going back to what the solutions are, I mean,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: if we ever get a Congress again who is actually
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: serious about reform, I think there are some great things
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: that could be done. But in the meantime, we're going
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: to have you know, Jamie Raskin just started this anti
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: corruption task force and they're looking at what, you know,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: corruption that's happening both within the administration and even on
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: on Capitol Hill. With the stock trading, for example, there's
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: been this We've been on a hope and a prayer
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: of getting a stock trading ban for really long time
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: now still has not happened.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: But you know, it's one of those depressing moments because
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: you know, this is an issue that's what seventy thirty
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: eighty twenty with the public right, it's not even there
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: is no This is one of those where I think
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: eighty percent of Republicans, eighty percent of Democrats are like, yeah, yeah,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: members of Congress wouldn't be able to trade stocks like this.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. It's amazing and why getting
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: the details on paper has been so difficult.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And I think part of it is not that there
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: is a lack of will or interest. It is that
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: there is a leadership issue. You know, we're non part
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: as an organization, but I like to say we don't
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: endorse or support candidates or parties, but we're like the
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: umpire we called balls and strikes. And the reality is
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: that for us, as we see it, this is the
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: most corrupt administration. But it is also an administration that
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: has such strong authoritarian tendencies that there is a huge
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: fear among people that if you go against this president
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: and his wishes, you will lose your job. And so
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: there's also a lack of moral courage. I think that
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: we're seeing come out of here. It's just ego for
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: some who think, well, if I'm not here to do this,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: then somebody else won't do a good job, like, you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: as good a job as me. But the reality is
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: that people are fearful to even put certain pieces of
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: legislation forward because it'll upset the president. And that that's herey, please.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: To be well. This episode of the Chuck Podcast is
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  Speaker 1: quints dot com slash chuck use that code. So let's
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: start with one that I'm an advocate of. When I
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: call the NASCAR approach instant disclosure forced. You know, when
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking about different ideas to sort of limit
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: money without a constitutional amendment. There are some things that
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I think are are not easy, right. I mean, we
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: have the judicial we may not like how the judiciary
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: branch is interpreting the First Amendment when it comes to money.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: And that's a twenty five year It's going to take
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: years in order to get that sort of change. So
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: in the meantime, you either fight for a constitutional amendment
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: or there might be a way to do things. And
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: so one thought I've always had is if you allowed
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: for unlimited donations, but once you give a certain amount
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: of money, once you take a certain amount of money
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: from somebody, you have to print their name, say their
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: name every time you communicate to the public, you know,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: instead of the stand by your at it's you know,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: I'm Chuck Todd, and I approved this message, which was
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: paid for by Jeff Bezos, Mark and Dreesen and Mark Zuckerberg.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: And that at a minimum, let's say I made the
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: threshold ninety nine thousand dollars nine hundred and ninety nine, right,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: anything one hundred thousand or more, you'd have to say
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: the name. I promise you Mark Zuckerberg would only hand
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: out checks of ninety nine hundred and ninety nine dollars, right,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: what do you think of ideas like that? I'm sort
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: of being a little exaggeration where you open the door
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: its instant disclosure or an unlimited But if you want
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: to take unlimited, you've got to basically talk about your
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: donor the every time you communicate in your campaign.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because clob Senator Cloba Shier has
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: something called the disclosed Zac that she's put forward pretty
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: much every Congress. Yea, yeah, And I actually testified on
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: this a couple of years ago in the committee and
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: the opposition. Their basic pushback on this was, well, whatn't
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: the commercials have to be really long then if we were,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: because they would have to name all of the people.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: And I was thinking to myself, if you're worried about
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: how long a commercial or an ad is going to be,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: like your priorities are completely messed up. But I think
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: this is the kind of thing when I was saying,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: you know too earlier about having innovative solutions, we might
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: not be able to get everything that we want. We
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: know DC is slow, we know reform is slow. We
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: also know that constitutional amendments, I mean, how it took
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: seventy two years for women to have the right to vote.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: For the mast meaningful amendment we added was lowering the
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: voting age, and that was you know, before I was born.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: That was in the seventies and that was actually common
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Cause who spearheaded that. So I'm just going to that
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: from ding ding dang. There you go, in addition to
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: sunshine laws. But I will say that it's these kinds
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: of solutions that you're talking about that it's a level
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: of we have to be more innovative here because while
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: we're trying to move the big pieces, we have to
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: think about even in a small way, just like that
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: kind of a disclosure. It gives more information to the people.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, transparency is a
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: big part of this. If people don't know where it's
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: coming from. And we're not always on the same page
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: as our friends. Look, Anthony Romero from ACLU is a
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: good friend of mine and a mentor somebody a doore
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: ACLU is not on the same page as we are
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: around disclosure.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've noticed that there's this argument, like the counter
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: on disclosure I always hear is, well, you know, some
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: people don't want to advertise their politics. Yeah, I'm like, Okay,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: then don't give money. I mean, I don't like I
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: don't like that. Doesn't you know if you don't want
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: to advertise your politics, and why are you giving money?
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: You clearly you're you're you're deciding, you know, so you
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: want to anonymously you know. Look, you get to vote
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: just like everybody else, but you want an unfair advantage
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: to finance a campaign. But that's one of the arguments
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: I hear.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's one of I think, But that's the
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: bigger issue here. And so I think what we've seen,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of grateful. And this might sound strange when
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: it comes to this administration, because what we've seen is
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: so egregious, right, what we've.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Seen before, it's an MRI. I'm so glad you said
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: it that way. I believe this. I think fifty years
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: from now, we'll look back and think and basically say, well,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump showed us where we had our vulnerabilities. He
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: was an MRI for our vulnerabilities.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Maybe even a cat scan. I mean, like literally we
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: can see inside the intestines. But it's wild, right, And
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: so we sit here every day and I mean, just
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: like yesterday with the one point and I have to
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: say one point seven seven six billion, Yeah, symbolism before.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: I refuse to do it. It's one point eight. I'm rounding.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not giving in that, but it's.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Seventeen seventy six. The symbolism behind it, which is great,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: you know, just wild. But you know what we've seen.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: I think it makes Watergate look quaint.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: It was as I wrote I wrote in my substack earlier,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: and this is going to air next week, so I'll say,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: you know, late late last week, Nixon had enough shame
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: to hide this stuff.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: No, no, but Donald Trump isn't ashamed. This is exactly
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: who he said he was.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Going to normalize. He's normalizing it. And my great fear
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: is that he's going to make people think well because
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Trump basically says this, Yeah, all politics is corrupt. I'm
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: just honest about my corruption. Yeah, basically saying it.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Think about It's really interesting because my staff we have
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: about one hundred and fifty staff members, and many of
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: our staff are younger gen z or you know, young millennials,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: and you know they're coming in and it was wild
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: for me when we were asking folks in a recent
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: staff meeting, you know, what is your first memory of politics?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: And none of them remember Barack Obama being president or
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: George Bush being president. So many of them young. So
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: one of the young folks they were in elementary school
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: when Donald Trump, or maybe middle school in high school
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: when Donald Trump became president. So their orientation and their
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: political awakening that was happening is this is all they've seen.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: And for many who came before that were like, there
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: was actually a world before this where the biggest concern
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: that Republicans had was or the biggest job they could
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: could make towards Obama was wearing a tan suit. I mean,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: there's a level of corruption here that I don't think
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: any of us have ever seen in our lifetimes. And
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: so I think there is going to be a backlash
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: at some point.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: People we all agree with that, right, we just don't
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: know when did we hit that. You know, I'm a
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: I'm Churchillian in this respect, Becaus Churchill once said, the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Americans always eventually get it right after they've exhausted every
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: other path, and so we'll figure it out.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: We'll figure it out. But the question is how much
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: damage is going to be done as a result. And
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I think one of the things that is both concerning,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: you know, just for us here as the American people,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: but it's what our standing is in the world globally
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and what this means for us because we see some
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: of the people that we have aligned ourselves with, or
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: the countries that we have aligned ourselves with, are also
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: not necessarily folks who have the best interest of the
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: United States at the end. And so you know this
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: there we are at this crossroads right now where not
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: only is it a moral decision that we need to
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: make for our country and whose interests are represent it,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: but I think there's also something to be said about
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: our long term global standing, which has been severely damaged.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: So look, there's a lot that Common Cause could focus
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: on when it came to priorities, and you've talked about
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: some of these things, but you know, this is one
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: of those like how do you eat an elephant? And
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: it is you know, the cliche is one bye at
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: a time, But this is this this corruption issue, this
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: this sort of cat scan or MRI that that the
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: President has sort of handed us and we see, oh
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: my god, we've got to update this and this, and
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like find it's like getting your house
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: inspected and finding out, my god, there are termites everywhere.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Do I just bulldoze the place or where do I
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: start the repair? So walk me through what is your
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: priority this calendar year, this election season, and then what's
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: your priority for the next two years? And then what
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: are some issues that you'd love to tackle, but you know,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: you got to do one and three first, and then
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: we'll let other groups focus on four and five.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So on the corruption piece. In the immediate we
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: have been trying to stop the bleeding, so to speak,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: and so we've been heavily engaged in litigation. I mean,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: we are filing lawsuits left and right. We just had
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: litigation that we filed against Trump and the irs last week.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: We are we have been in this kind of I
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: refer to it as a rapid response phase because what
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: we're seeing is coming so fast. And then working at
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: local level reforms. I think one of the things that
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of people forget is that when you're able
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: to work at the state level, you're building momentum for
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: the federal government. You're building momentum towards large scale reform.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: We're working also with people like Senator Warren's office we're working,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: you know, both with members of the House and the
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Senate to look at where we can again put our
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: fingers in the dike stop some of the purge. Are
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: there some immediate things? How are we bringing light We're
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: doing a lot of research, a lot of investigative research.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: We work with partners, and so we have great groups
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: like Campaign, Legal Center and Demos and there are all
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: these great groups who were doing the work, and then
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: also groups like Protect Democracy, Ian Bassing who you know.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: We just have this amazing group of partners who we
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: have created kind of a coalition of both thinkers and doers,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: the thinkers and the practitioners. So as we think about
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: what reform looks like, we're also putting plans in place
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: to be able to figure out how do we test
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: some of these reforms at the state level. So that's
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: kind of the immediate The other thing is, though, the
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: organizing piece of this, and I think community organizing and
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: anti corruption is not something that naturally comes to people's minds,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: but I will tell you we have something called our
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Million Conversations Campaign, and we have a goal to have
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: a million conversationations with everyday people before the twenty eight election,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And we're talking to folks all throughout the country, whether
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: you are a farmer and rural in the breast.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: What are these canvassers? What's the what's the idea?
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: These are organizers, and these are members of our organization.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I told you we have a million members already.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: People go door knock and com from Common Cause, They're
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: going to neighborhoods.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: What's we're having town halls, We're having what we call
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: kitchen table conversations. We're asking our members to each have
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: these conversations. At least twenty five individuals. Forty thousand of
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: our members have signed up to have twenty five conversations,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: to talk and to record. What are the things that
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: are most pressing, What are the solutions that they see
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: that are most necessary? What do they want from their
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: elected leaders? And we're asking them to talk to other people,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: and we're getting this information back and we're hearing because pulling,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: you know, is as good as the sample that you have,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: and you're asking these quick question.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Pulling is good for what, it's not good for whys exactly?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: And when we're hearing from and I like that actually,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: and what we're hearing from folks is that there is
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: a fatigue that people are feeling, not only because they're
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: seeing the amount of information, but people are struggling just
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: on an everyday basis. That affordability piece ties to the
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: anti corruption work in a way that I didn't even imagine,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: because people are saying, I can't afford to pay my bills.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: We don't have enough money for groceries. Farmers are saying,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: we can't buy the fertilizer. But yet, you know, and
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: what's going to happen. We're going to have to charge
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: more for food later on down the line because it's
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: going to cost us more to yield these crops. And
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: they're saying, but I see all of this happening, and
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, the rich keep getting richer. You know, we
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: talk about it as a case shaped economy, but the
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: reality is that the people are on the downside of
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: that k they are feeling it much differently than the
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: people who are on the upsite, and they're angry. And
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: so this all does also come back to voting, and
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: voting ties in because people need to not only be angry,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: but when we bring the conversation to everyday people, and
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about people from all walks of life, black brown,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Native American communities, rural farmers, people who live in the
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: inner city, suburban moms, they're all saying the same thing.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: And people who are looking for a sense of agency,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: a sense of something to belong to that isn't one
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: of the political parties, and by creating a home for them,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: it gives people the opportunity to act. So organizing for
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: us is not just about putting policy being you know
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: this Washington group who is putting forward ideas to give
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: to politicians. No, we're saying to everyday folks, how can
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: you be part of the solution? Because John Gardner, our founder,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: that is exactly where he started. We're bringing it back
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: to the basics until there's a real movement of everyday
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: folks who are demanding this. And I'm not talking about marchism,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: telling people about people who are going to show up
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: to their town halls, people who are going to push
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: their local legislators. That's where I think real hardcore organizing
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: comes in and getting people to stand up and do something.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting as you were talking about that,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about the election in Hungary because I
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: feel like and I want to learn more. I want
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: to keep learning more about his about his victory, but
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: it appears to me, what you know, Look, there was
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: political opposition to Orbon before they pointed out the corruption,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: before it was widely known how corrupt things were. What
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: the moment, the reason the opposition one this time is
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: it seemed to connect with people's lives, right, they were
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: able to see that what you just described, I'm having trouble.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: And wait a minute, government's not only not paying attention,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: they're actually transacting over here. And you know, while they're
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: making money off of stock trades, I'm paying more or
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: for chicken, I'm paying more for gas and this. And
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: you know, I've always said, and it's I'm My greatest
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: fear is if we don't view this corruption as alarming,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: and instead it's just seen as just as just the
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: way business is done. Because look, I'm watching this gerrymandering
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: business and when you start to one side says we're
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: going to do it, and the other side says, well,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: we think it's a bad idea, but now we have
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: no choice to do it. Good people will do bad
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: things if they think the incentives are aligned the wrong way.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: And I worry that if this corruption essentially gets normified,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: gets sort of where the voters are essentially accept it
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: right because they don't punish it. That you'll see all
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: parties start to do this.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: But I think we've already gotten to that point, right.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's just a different approach to it. So
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: when when President Trump reached out to Governor Abbott and said,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: you know, we want you to redistrict the state mid
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: cycle redistricting, you know, redistricting in the middle is usually
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: only done because there's some core order, because a map
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: wasn't done like correctly, and the Voting Rights Act was
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: the main protection that we had. It's usually because because
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: you know, in our crucial v. Common Cause case that
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: was decided by the Supreme Court a few years ago,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: they basically gave a green light on political gerrymandering. Excuse me,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: it was the protections of the Voting Rights Act that
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: really prevented it from being completely out of control. And
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: we know, particularly in the South, Black people in the
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: South are the ones who are going to be most
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: harmed by these political gerrymanders. But in California, when when
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom said, hey, you know we're going to do
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: this here, We're going to fight back. One of the
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: things that we did was we put forth something called
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: fairness criteria. We knew that we weren't going to be
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: able to stop this, but at least we were trying
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: to say, you're not going to crack and pack districts
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: to do harm to people of color, specifically black people
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Native Americans. With the recent Calai decision, all bets are off. Basically,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: it was the death of the Voting Rights Act in
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: many ways, and so this is happening. It's going to happen.
• 38:28
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  Speaker 1: And yes, I two, I am a customer. And that's
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: my point is that like and there are people who
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  Speaker 1: may have good intentions who are going to pursue essentially
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: what are undemocratic ideas, And that's my concern of this
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: sort of the whole fight fire with fire approach, you
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: know where, Look, if you believe what Texas is doing
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: is disenfranchising voters, the answer isn't to disenfranchised voters in
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: your state, right And I understand that's what you said
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: you were trying to do in California, and I get it.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: But to me, this is my concern about this corruption
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: that we see pay to play, pay to play becomes
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: an accepted practice. Trust me, it isn't going to stay
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: in one party.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: But the difference was with California and for Virginia recently,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: which also is not happening now, is that there was
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: a vote that was brought.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: To the people, so they did at least go to
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: the people. I will. I yes, it's better than not
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: going to the voters.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: It's better than not good to the people. But it's
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: all race to the bottom, right, and I think.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Correctly, and there's nobody's going to win that race. There's
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: no winner.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court has not helped either in the sense that
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: they have not given any solutions. So first, you're not
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: going to determine how much political jerry mandering is too
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: much jerrymandering, and then you're basically saying that we're living
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: in a post racial society where we don't need this
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: protections anymore. I mean, it's it's kind of well, the.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Problem with jerrymandering and this is where you know, so
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm one of these weird dorks that believes that
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: they answered all this is actually expanding the house. I
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: think if you if we if we right size the house,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: founders intent right, They thought the house should grow with
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: the people, and we haven't let the house grown over
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: one hundred basically one hundred years. It makes jerry mandering
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: more effective. Sadly, where if you had more members of Congress,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying you're not gonna have jerry mandering. And
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: by the way, we all now self sorted, so you
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: could if if your goal is to create competitive districts,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: you might have to jerry mander in order to create
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: a competitive district the days, so there's all sorts of
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: I think challenges. Is it better to pursue the to
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: zag here instead of fighting over how we should determine maps?
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Is it possible that we just don't have a big
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: enough Congress to properly represent this three democracy that's three
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million people.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean you have four hundred and thirty
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: five members of the House and you have one hundred
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: people in the Senate. I mean the Senate is a
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: bigger issue for me in a lot of ways because malapportioned.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the apportionment issue, and it is a bigger
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: issue in the sense that it's you have two senators
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: in California and you have two senators from Delaware, for example. Well,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: that's like completely different populations. How is that a fair
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: representation of the people, So.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I thinks, and more importantly, you've also you know, the
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: reason that compromise happened was that the House was supposed
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: to at least be right sized on your population. So
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: California is not only underrepresented in the Senate, California is
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: also underrepresented in the House. I promise you. Virginia and Massachusetts,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: which were the two states that everybody else was worried
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: was going to have too much power at the founding,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: you know, they had right sized power in the House
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: based on their population. So California is hurt twice here,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: not just once.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and so you know that is another thing
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I need. I mean, at the end of the day,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: you asked me something earlier about what the solutions are,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: and me saying, you know, I'm kind of thankful in
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: a way that some of this stuff is happening, because
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to force us into or hope
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: it forces us to think about what this country and
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: what democracy should look like, you know. And what I
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: mean by that is we haven't changed that much over time.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: You still have, you know, basically the same rules, the
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: same people, and the way that they were operating one
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years ago. You know, two hundred years ago,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: we're coming up on the what is it the semi quincentennial.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: I had to learn how to.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Sign I don't know what right two hundred? Why can't
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: we just say two fifty. It's sort of like, you know,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: there's certain things we come up with these nobody says
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: these words, except for when we're trying to come up
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: with a word for two fifty.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: But that's okay, right, But at the end of the day,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: you know, we are not the same country we were
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: when we were founded, and the way that our system
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: of government was applied then is no longer working for us, and.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: So my fear, to their credit, they gave us tools
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: to update it. It's actually, you know, every historian I've
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: talked to, I said, how what would founders think if
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: they came back today? They were like, they wouldn't believe
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: there's only twenty seven amendments. They would they just assumed
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: we would be an active democracy.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: The tools, but not necessarily the will.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Well, that's true.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: And and so you can have all the tools. You know,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: make it drink. Wasn't that the old saying? But a
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: lot of this does go back to the money and
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: the corruption and the self serving and the self dealing.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: And I think that there is also a lack of
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: a sense of community that has that exists now in Washington.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, I came to d C twenty five years ago,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: and I'll never forget I was a young woman, you
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: know in Connecticut, Connecticut heart for Connecticut, and so you know,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: I came and Barbara Kennelly was my representative when I
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: when I you know, back in the olden days and
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: so but when I first came I'll never forget. I
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: went to my first House Judiciary Committee meeting and John
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Conyers and Henry Hyde were there and they were going
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: at it, and I was just, you know, clutching my girls, like,
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, they're going out in this committee. And
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: then afterwards they said, Okay, come on, you're ready to
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: go get a drink. And I'm sitting there and I'm
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: thinking to myself, Oh, these guys are actually friends. They're
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: able to have compromise behind closed doors. And this also
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: happened back in the early twenty tens when we were
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: going through when we almost got immigration reform and Eric
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Canter was up next to be Speaker of the House.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: This is when he got primary.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I lost and they all got spooked.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And immigration reform did not happen. We came very close,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: but there were relationships. You know, Gutierres and Eric Cancer
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: were able to have conversations or were able to get
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: to something different behind closed doors. And right now they
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: don't even speak to each other.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the word bipartisan is a bad
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: word to regular voters to these days. In fact, I've
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: been working with some groups that are trying really hard
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: to figure out to create new incentive structures for people
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: to break from their party, but not leave their party. Right,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: There's plenty of people who would like to had to
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: have their own opinions. They want to stay a Democrat
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: or stay a Republican, but they don't agree with where
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: leadership is going on a specific issue. They'd like to
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: cross the aisle and work there. But if they do it,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: particularly on one side of the aisle these days, they
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: could lose everything, right, rather than just sort of going, oh, yeah,
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: so and so it's seventy percent with us, but yeah,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: thirty percent of the time they're over here. But you
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: know what, seventy percent is better than nothing, right, So
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: that's why they're a member of our caucus. Right, Whether
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: you know, I could be referring to Joe Mansion or
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Lisa Murkowski, right, that's not you know, that's that's sort
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: of a real It is really hard. I want to
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: I don't want to violate confidence. But there was a
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: there was an individual member of Congress who broke from
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: their party and they explained what happened when they did it.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: They got all these text messages from people that they
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: knew very well, or going what are you doing? Why
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: are you giving aid and comfort and all this stuff?
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: And it was like the person said they had no
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: problem on the issue, moving, you know, going in a
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: different direction. But the peer pressure was rough. Yeah, and
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: it was, and it made it gave me an empathy
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: for some of these elected officials that maybe I was lacking.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: That there are and you just brought it up. There
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: are individual members who know we've got it, this isn't working,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: but the incentive structure makes it that speaking out. You
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: mentioned it earlier, right, that they're afraid, and that's that's
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: something that I don't know how you reform an incentive structure.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting we all remember this, right,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: like if you know, you know the thumbs down moment
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: from John mcking there there aren't we've lost statesmen through
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: this process. You know, John McCain was a statesman. He cared,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: I think deeply about the country. I didn't agree with
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of his policies. There were policies that I
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: did agree with, but he stood behind his values and
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: what he thought was right. He voted his conscience. And
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: there are very few people left in Congress who have
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: the ability to vote their conscience, who have the ability
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: to show up in a way because of the way
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: that the system has changed. It's in all or nothing.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: This is a zero sum game. It's you know, we
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: describe people as good versus evil when we talk about
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: our country, and so I think, again, going back to
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: what needs to change, it's more than legislative policy. There
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: is in some ways many of many people have become
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: morally bankrupt in order to financially benefit and or because
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: they their goal is to be a politician. Their entire
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: lives being a politician and an elected leader used to
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: be about service. I don't know that it's about service anymore.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: So I think there's a bigger examination that we have
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: to have for ourselves as a country when we think
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: about what the expectations of our leaders are, where we
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: are creating job descriptions for them. That's why when I
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: was talking about these million conversations. We're tired of having
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: leaders put forward a platform and we have no input
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: into what that should be. We want to be able
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: to have the American people actually have a say and
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: where they want this country to go. And I think,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: you know, politics are always a dirty business, but at
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: this point, it's like we're basement level, you know, So
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: one of.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: The issues and I know you wanted to talk about this,
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: so I want to sort of lead you to it
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: a little bit, which has to do with what's happening
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: and how you campaign in America. Right, it's not just money.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: But we've now got AI. We certainly there are we
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: don't have rules yet for how AI should be used,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: which means we are going to see and we're already
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: seeing it, right, like the AI slop with some campaigns
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: that we're already seeing in certain places. And I don't
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: want to single out campaigns right now because then you
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: get down a rabbit hole about a specific campaign. But
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: there's some AI slop out there, and it's and one
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: side is doing more slop at the moment than the other.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: But I know it's just a matter of everybody. Nobody
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: wants to ever have a disadvantage, right, So we know
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: it's coming, yet we have no rules around this. And
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: I you know, I'm now in my mid fifties and
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: I'll admit, like, I'll see stuff and someone will say, well,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: that's obvious AI, and I'm like it is, you know,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I think my eyes are a little
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: bit older now. I'm worried, Like my kids figure it out.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: But some of this stuff and it's like, I don't
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: know what are the you know what what is it?
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: A A Is there current laws in the books that
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: you think could govern against the use of aislot?
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: No, this is the wild West. And that's what makes
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: it so scary. You know, there are some social media platforms,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: for example, that self regulate content. So, for example, on TikTok,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: they do require you to say this is an AI
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: generated content, and they do a pretty good job of
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever issues people might have with TikTok, they're
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: actually probably better than most. Meta does not provide those
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: same requirements, and so we see an X. I mean,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: x's forget about it.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: The amount of area really is the wild West now?
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: It is XES. I mean, I don't even know what
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: to say about that. But the amount of AI generated content,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: and like you said, it's so good. It's not like
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: even you know, three years ago, where somebody would put
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: a picture and there might be like a sixth finger
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: or something on somebody's hand. No, it is so very
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: lifelike and realistic. And the part of the challenge, I
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: think is that Congress is always behind the eight ball
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: when it comes to knowing how to I mean, look,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: we have an age issue in Congress as well that
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: ties to this because we have people a lot of
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: you know, we have a lot of.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Other But in fairness, even if we had a younger Congress.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Government does not move fast, no, in general.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: But the understanding of it.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: And technology is moving so fast. I don't know what
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: the right way to regulate AI because the minute you
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: figure it out, it changes on you.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: And that is that in itself lies the issue. But
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: again going back to we might not be able to
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: regulate everything in this moment, but going back to that
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: idea around transparency and disclosure and being required especially with
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: political content, that you should there should be something in
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: place that requires political content to be labeled as AI
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: if it's AI.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: And like out loud, like it can't be. You know
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: how You'll see some prescription drug ads and it will
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: if you if you read carefully, they'll say this. The
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: portrayals are actors or they're paid actors or paid endorsers.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: They don't say it. It is written that if you
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: squint right, or you have a big enough screen TV,
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: you might notice it. Like it the disclosure's got to
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: be this is AI material, like I want it to
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: be like louder than the actual commercial itself, you know.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: And and AI isn't completely harmful. Look, we use it
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: every day in our lives. You just have to do
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: a simple search and there's AI assist.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: That will can't avoid it. I know these people I
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: never use AI. Really, you're not on the internet like
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: trust me. Yeah, you're using as if you're doing search.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: You're using AI whether you want to or not. Yeah.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: But the political content, the deep fake videos, which are
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: really concerning, and last election was one of the times
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: where I think we saw some of this in twenty
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: twenty I mean twenty twenty four in a real way.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: But it was I think the first time where I realized, oh,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: this is actually we had to litigate in twenty twenty
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: four over some of the deep deep bake content because
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: it was so disparaging to people.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: And so is that problem. I mean, it's funny you
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: bring up litigation. Sometimes civil litigation is the only way
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: we create some of these guardrails, you know. Basically, I
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: guess you make a bunch of AI defamation suits.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's part of the challenge though, is that
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: again going back to this idea of creativity, we're facing
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: things nobody has ever faced before. This is stuff that
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: we nobody knows what to do with it, and there
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: is the will. Like in Europe, there's a lot of
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: regulation that happens around AI content and I think they're
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: probably doing better. At least folks in the European Union
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: are doing a better job.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Away was joke and if you care about privacy, help
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: the EU passes something.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But here we're not even like there is even
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: no real attempt at this point, and so civil litigation
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: really is the only way to go to bring these
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: things in the forefront and then figuring out where we
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: can draw legislative solutions or propose legislative solutions. But the complexity,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's like, you know, asking big tech to
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: regulate themselves is I mean, it's not going to happen,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: and so what do we And again there's there there
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: was a lot of ethical There was a much more
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: of an ethical approach to AI, I think just a
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: few years ago and the way that people spoke about it.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: And now it's just a race or a competition to
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: see if we can beat China and that, and that's
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: really scary because when it's looked at as a competition
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: to see who can go further and faster, as opposed
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: to what is the impact of the people who will
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: be on the recipients of this technology, We've found ourselves
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: in a really dire place.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Before I let you go, you brought up something. You know,
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: one of the founding successes for Common Cause was the
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: fight for sunshine laws. And I was I grew up
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: in Florida and we've had sunshine laws, and you know,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: it's one of these It's ironic to me, the party
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: that now is trying to kill it was the party
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: that actually was the one who championed it because they
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: used to be in the minority and now they're in
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: the majority. And that happens quite a bit with political parties,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: you know. They they they're pro something until they get
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: power and they're like, oh no, I don't know if
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: I want that anymore. But these sunshine laws have stock
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: and they certainly serve as a pretty good check on
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: what is I think kind of a weak legislature in Florida.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: Ditto in Texas. Right if we didn't have the sunshine
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: laws in Texas, there'd be a lot more things we
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: didn't know. What's the status of sunshine laws around the country.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: Who are some of the better states, and where are
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: you worried that there's going to be some rollbacks?
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: You know, I think by and large, well Florida. Actually
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: it has been a stop gap in Florida, which is
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: really interesting, and in states around the country. I think,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: you know, that's a hard question for me to answer
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: because I think in the states that have them, and
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: which is pretty much every state in the country had
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: them to very form of them. Yeah, yeah, it's a
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: varying degrees.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: But Florida. You go to Florida, like any individual, any citizen, like,
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: it's a little more some states are we're more responsive
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: to their sunshine laws is probably a better way to
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: put it.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there are states like Rhode Island,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: who's doing a great job and they continue to expand
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: sunshine laws. I think that some of the states where
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: I am more concerned are states like North Carolina, for example.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: North Carolina is an interesting state.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: Superpower legislative branch, super weak executive branch.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and so where you see that there is not
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: parody between the or the balance of power doesn't exist,
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: there becomes an opportunity. So when you see one of
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: the states, North Carolina is also a state that has
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: an elected Supreme Court, these this is a part isan court.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: And so when you see jerrymandering combined with partisan elected
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court UH officers, and then you see a government
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: that is very much jerrymandered or the state is very
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: much cheerymandered, and then you see just how the balance
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: of power is off. Those are the states where I
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: see the biggest opportunity to roll back sunshine laws. And
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: so again this is just really about having a government
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: that is for and by the people, and that means
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: having some norms and having balance in place. And when
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: that balance gets off, you're a you're in a world
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: of trouble.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Is there can we have a movement to get rid
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: of elected judges? You know Alexander Hamilton and Federalist seven,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: when he was making his case for judiciary, was making
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: the case you know he doesn't He makes the case
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: against the election of Supreme Court judges and saying electing
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: judges is you know you got to have He's basically
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: making the case for umpires and is and is least
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: part at least factional. I think he calls it factions.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Back then we didn't have parties yet, that they're not
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: going to favor one faction or the other. Or you
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: try to find as neutral of an arbiter as you
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: can find. So the reason I always like to ground
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: this argument in the federalist papers is because anybody wants
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: to play originalism with me or any of that stuff,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: It's like, this was founder's intent. And ultimately, you know,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: and I do not understand these states that elect Supreme
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Court justices and it's just I don't you know, it's
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: it's really seems so corruptible. You know, I'm not saying
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: every elected Supreme Court justice is corrupt, but it's a corrupt.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: It's a more corruptible process than doing it through appointments now,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: because some would argue, well, you know, an executive is
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: biased and this is you know, you can still have
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: these things. It's like, yeah, but the judge to actually
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: take the money themselves, right to know that they need donors,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: you know, that's going to show up in their courtroom.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: You know, it just it's inevitable.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: It is inevitable. And I think you're absolutely right. I
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: mean and look at the most recent Supreme Court case
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: in North Carolina with Alison Riggs. I mean, it was
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: millions and millions and millions of dollars the most expensive
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: court race because it wasn't just about the race itself,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: which she won, it's that it was contested and so
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: there were just a ridiculous amount of money for it
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: to take months and months and months to say, oh,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: actually she she did win. And so what happens is
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: when you have Supreme Court justices who have to spend
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: more of their time, a big large chunk of their
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: time fundraising prior to an election, the business of the
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: people is not happening. But again, and it comes into this.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: There's somebody you take a donation, you've potentially compromised yourself.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: Well exactly, and then you have to step back and say, well,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, and this is if people.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: Step back right and everybody does it right.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: Not everybody is going to do that. And so it
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: is Look, I would love to leave with.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: Some hope and what I was going to get. Don't worry,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: I was actually going to do that give And so
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: you're right, I'm look, because you know it's like a
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: you know, I joke I got a lot of you know,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: every day is Festivus on the Check podcast with our
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: politics right now, I got a lot of problems with
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: you people. But look, what if you don't have optimism,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: you're not going to get out of bed, right So
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: what what what gives you hope? I mean, I like
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: to call myself short term pessimistic, but long term optimistic.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: So tell me why you're optimistic.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: I'm optimistic because the people in this country aren't stupid.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: For as much as we see people trying, even the
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: people who are pushing back against what we see right now,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: they are as much the patriot is the person who
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: stands outside every day waving a flag. People love this
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: country and people want to be able to live in
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: a country that loves them back. And I think sometimes
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: that means standing up and pushing back. And we've been
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: in this place before. We went through McCarthyism in the
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, during the same time where Jim Crow was happening,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: during the same time in the nineteen sixties where we
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: saw the women's rights movement happening. So many things that happened,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: and on the edge of that, after that that when
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: that next chapter was written, it was always so much better,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: whether it was the Great Depression and then seeing the
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: big New Deal that came out of it, the Great
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: New Deal that came afterwards after the World War Two,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: and we saw a very prosperous nation. This is a
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: dark time for our country, but we will get through it,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: and we will be able to be better as a result.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: And it's going to be the American people everyday, folks
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: who aren't connected to the wealthy and the powerful, standing
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: up and taking back their country and using their vote
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: and their voice. Who we're going to do it.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Well. Look, a group like Common Cause has to have
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: some idealism in it, or we're not going to get
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: compromise solutions thater effective. That's what I always say. You
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: sort of have to aim for the aim for the
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: perfect in order to get people to sit down and
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: make things a little bit better.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: I couldn't have been doing this work for the past
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: thirty years if I, you know, wasn't hopefully optimistic all
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: the time. And the reality is that we're it's rough
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: right now, but we're going to be okay. But everybody
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: has to do their part. Being a citizen in this
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: country means you have to It's more than just go
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: into the ballot box. It's actually showing up at the
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: local level and then doing everything you can to help
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: your fellow neighbor while we're fighting this fight.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: It's well said, look that's we all need to realize
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: that citizenship is active. It's right, absolutely like what you see.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Get up off your took us anyway, Virginia. This was
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: a pleasure.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Chuck, really appreciate you having m
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: m m m m
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: Hm