Latest / Beyond The Ceremony: Modern Celebrancy. Unfiltered. / Beyond The Ceremony Podcast Ep 6: What Is A Funeral Celebrant?
Transcript
- So welcome to today's episode of beyond the ceremony. Now I am really, really excited because today I am joined by fellow AMC mentor, Sarah Wickham, Hello, Sarah. Now it's it's not just you joining us today. Sarah, is it you've got a little, teeny, tiny plus one today. We do. We've got a 36 week old who's due to arrive in about four weeks. Oh, my goodness, behaving at the moment. Okay, see if she continues. Yeah, we better keep today's episode brief, so that you know she doesn't make any early appearances and surprise us all that can be a podcast first. So Sarah, we're, we're talking about a topic today which I'm really, really excited to delve a bit more into, because it's something that's relatively new to me in my celebrant career. So we're going to be talking about what is a funeral celebrant. Now we've already done a fantastic episode with our head of learning penny on what is a wedding celebrant. Her background, you know, she was a registrar before. So we were talking about, kind of, some of the differences and things like that. But when it comes to funerals, I think you are one of the, just most knowledgeable but lovely people that I've spoken to. I've heard you speak many times. You're very inspiring, and I think your journey into this is something that was going to be a really, you know, valuable insight on the podcast. So first of all, Sarah, would you mind just introducing yourself, telling us a little bit about you, kind of your experience as a celebrant, as well as your other experience within the funeral industry? Yes, of course. So I became a celebrant about 12 years ago. Actually, it's probably closer to 13 now, time just flies by, doesn't it? Yeah, and it's I was a chapel attendant before then working in a crematorium, and I just wanted to help families further. You know, I felt that I didn't have the chance to give them the full help that I could. So I trained as a celebrant, and then I decided that, you know, I was going to follow a more eco friendly path, because that's what I felt drawn to. Yeah, I learned a lot more about green funeral practices, and about five years ago, I opened a natural burial ground with the help of leadham, leading natural burials and and I've been running that now with my husband and my little son and with the help of leadham. And alongside that, I do celebrate ceremonies, but I do all types of ceremonies. So I still do ceremonies at crematoria and celebrant ceremonies at natural burial ground. But I'm very kind of family focused down to earth. Try and keep it as personal, meaningful, just as as easy as possible for the families who want to use us really, as I think a lot of our celebrants do. Yeah, absolutely. So talk to me a little bit about, obviously, you were a celebrant first, and like you said, you were a chapel attendant, which I never knew. I've literally only just found that out today. So that's amazing. And I imagine, as a chapel attendant, when you're seeing all these, you know, funerals being like carried out, you'll probably watch them and thinking, wow, that is so inspiring, and listening to all these different stories and things. So is that when you kind of knew that, yes, you thought it was the right time for you to train as a celebrant yourself. I think it was because I was the one who was there to pick up any problems, like if the music hadn't been ordered, or if things hadn't been done. And sometimes you thought things go wrong, and you thought there's such an easy fix. And then other times you saw the celebrants that were coming through, which, at that time was real cottage industry. You know, there weren't celebrants out there at all and and I just felt that there was more that could be done, because you saw the different types of ceremonies. You saw what fitted people, but you also saw there was room to actually make things better, yeah. And I think that's what pulled me into it, you know, I wanted it to be better for people. Absolutely fantastic. So obviously, being in that setting, you saw all different types of ceremonies. So let's just take it right back to basics. For people who are listening. There might be people listening who you know are already trained as a wedding celebrant and are thinking about becoming a funeral celebrant, or they might not be trained in celebrancy at all and considering it. So what is a funeral celebrant? Let's literally just take it back to basics. Tell us a little bit. Little bit about that, like the different options in terms of using a celebrant and maybe an independent or a humanist celebrant. So a funeral celebrant is someone that helps celebrate life, and that's celebrating life in whatever manner, whether that's a very simple celebration of life, whether that's something more intricate, based it's a celebration of life and and creating a ceremony that reflects the life of the person that you love. And that's from start to finish. As I say to my the people I meet you know, every word is written for you. It's about you and your loved one. This there's nothing else out there that that would ever match, because it's it's all unique, it's all personal, and that's what a celebrant does. They uniquely tailor scripts. So if you've got an independent celebrant like myself, I may say, if there's an auntie there who says, I'd really like the Lord's Prayer, yeah, of course, I'm I'm religious, I will do the Lord's Prayer. But I will make sure they know I'm not a minister. Yes, important, yes. So I will do the Lord's Prayer to say, I know that so and so has really, really wants to say the Lord's prayer today. So take this time if you are religious, to to join in with us. But I it's not based on me or my theology. It's based on my beliefs, other beliefs and wishes of the family. Yes. So a humanist celebrant is very much based on that. This is one life. We've got, this life to live, and it's got that non religious theology behind it. So there is still a theology there, but it's very much a non religious belief. But for me, it's about working with what my families want. You know their spiritual beliefs tying in how they need to say goodbye in whatever way that might be, but not as a fully religious service. So they can be fully religious. They can have a Celtic blessing. They can be linked back to heritage. They can be linked back to a spiritual belief, a belief of nature, a religious belief, but in a very simple way, and then the rest of the ceremony is still, then built around that person that you love, reflecting their life absolutely. And I think that's the difference. Some people, when they come across like a celebrant led funeral, they might have, you know, not experienced that before. They might have just experienced, like, you say, a religious funeral, or, you know, funerals that have happened in churches, things like that. And afterwards, I often find when I've delivered a service, they'll they'll just say, Wow, that was like, you know, just right for that person and and that's what you want to capture that essence, and exactly like you. I'm I'm the same. That's why I chose to be an independent celebrant, because for me, whatever suits that family in terms of if they want to include religion or not, that's their decision, and it shouldn't be down to me and my belief. So I'm the same with the with the kind of choosing that independent path. And I think as well, I realized this, I delivered a service last week, and we actually had two hymns in there. And I don't think I've sang a hymn either, unless it's at someone else's wedding or funeral. I haven't really sang hymns since primary school. So for me to stand there and, you know, be leading this hymn. Obviously I wasn't leading it in terms of actually singing, but you know what I mean, standing at the front, and we all kind of stood up to sing together, actually, like you say, I think it's really important that we make it clear we're not a minister in that situation, but we are facilitating the wishes of that family on whoever that person is, and really making sure that we kind of incorporate that. So what would you say are the main differences, then, between a celebrant funeral and a religious funeral? Because obviously you can include religion in a celebrant funeral. So just talk to me a bit about those differences. I would say that a religious funeral is based on the theology itself. You know, it's about somebody in their belief system and how you celebrate them within that so often, they might take place in a church or a mosque or a chapel or any religious building, whereas a celebrant ceremony basically takes place where a family wants it to take place. And that can be anywhere. You know, it could be in the family home, it could be on the beach, it could be in your home field. It could be at the crematorium, a natural burial ground. It can be anywhere but you it's about, like I said, bringing in that person in every aspect. So that includes the location, yeah, that includes their life story. And then, while we might incorporate religious elements, our ceremonies are not focused on religion as such, so it doesn't follow possibly that religious order of service that you maybe get with the Catholic service. Yeah, absolutely. Things can change, and they can be very flexible, really flexible. And that's the lovely thing about celebrant ceremonies. They can take 10 minutes. They can take two hours, you know, yeah, but you you find what fits you really do, don't you? And I think that's the thing. It's really about that family and the way they want to, you know, show their loved one and their personality and talk about their life. And, like you say, sometimes that can be quite an intimate affair. And, you know, they don't really want much of a life story, but maybe they want more music as part of the celebration. Or sometimes there'll be really long tributes from like, plenty of members of the family, and it really just depends on who that person is. And I think that's like you say, that's what's at the heart of a celebrant ceremony. It's actually the person themselves, rather than the whole ceremony, because there isn't a one size fits all. It's kind of based on that individual. I've done a funeral before, where the person themselves didn't want a funeral. So actually, it wasn't a funeral. It was us coming to the natural burial ground. They brought some flowers from her garden, because she loved her garden, and we spoke about the wildlife, because she used to have badges that visited and bunny rabbits that visited. And I was able to tell them everything that comes to visit us and to explain what grows in that corner and and all these beautiful things that that that come up in the spring and in the summer, and then they could come forward, place their flower from her garden, and they could say goodbye. So it wasn't a long service. I think it took about 15 minutes, but her friends and her family needed a chance to say goodbye. Yeah, it was important. Important, yeah, but she didn't want a funeral. So in itself, it was a celebration of the things she loved, rather than a funeral service. And then I've done it before, where we've had it with wakes and toasts and things afterwards, where people will bring a picnic and they'll have a toast, and we'll do a shot, and all of these things. So it's it's really lovely that they can be so different. Yeah, that's fantastic. Really, really lovely. So you touched a little bit there about the natural burial ground. So what kind of types of funerals are there? I don't really know if that's the right way to phrase it, but I'm talking about, obviously, you've got a cremation, then you've got a burial, then you've got a natural burial. So could you just touch a bit on the kind of various options that people and families have. So yeah, the really nice thing is that some people choose cremation, and you might have a funeral at the crematorium in that instance, but a funeral director might also have a chapel, so you might go to their chapel beforehand and use their their chapel first. But then there's also traditional burial, and then that might be at the graveside, natural burial, which might be a graveside, they might have a memorial shelter. So, so natural burial, obviously the most eco friendly option we have at the moment. And then traditional burial is what you expect with these the headstones and the cemeteries. And you know that more conventional outlook really, with the cemetery itself, yeah. And then you've also got things like memorial services, so they might take place weeks or months or years after a cremation or a Direct Cremation, even, because I know that there's a lot of talk of Direct Cremation and we do direct natural burial as well, so that's quite useful to know. But just because you have a Direct Cremation or a direct burial doesn't mean that you can't have a celebration afterwards somewhere special, and that could be a pub or a hotel or a home or a local village, yeah? If you want different options, hire that out. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And then a living celebration as well as a one that's coming through these days as well. People want to actually have a celebration while they're still alive, definitely. And I think there's a whole episode on these options. I think individually, we can definitely do an episode on each and kind of break them down. But I think really, like you say, that rise in direct cremations, especially, there's quite a lot of people who don't like the idea of the whole we're coming in in a coffin and being carried by, you know, the funeral directors or the family, and then placed there, and you're there throughout the whole service. Sometimes people think, actually they want to just do the cremation, have that bit done separately, and then have a celebration of their life that really represents them and and is about them. And I think that's such a great idea. And I think actually something really, really special. So when it comes to the natural burial ground, say, for example, somebody said, you know, in their expression of wishes that they wanted to be buried at a natural burial ground. Would you still have a service? Would you still have you like you would see a traditional funeral? Is that still something that people would do? Is it more like a gathering around the graveside? Or how would that work? It's a real mix. So you can have real traditional all faiths are welcome at natural burial grounds. So that's really important. To know. It's not consecrated ground, but grace can be blessed. So that's really nice to know that you could have, which is great for mixed based families, because if you've got someone who has a religious belief, and then someone who has a non religious belief, they can be buried side by side. And that's the lovely thing. That's lovely side by side in life, as as well as they were in, you know, in death. You know, that's how it all works, really. But you can do it around the graveside. At ours, we don't have a memorial shelter yet. Hopefully we will in the future. We've got planning, but at the moment, we offer a gazebo there, so people can use a gazebo, and they can have the ceremony within a structure as such. But you can actually do it in whatever way fits. So some people just want to be around the graveside. Other people use our gathering space, and they'll have chairs and they'll set it up as a funeral. Other people will just, they'll just wing it, you know, they'll turn up on the day and decide where they want to be, and we make it work. And if they say we're not sure, then we just work with it, because we're quite flexible. But it's it's quite nice to have a space where you can gather whether that's beside the graveside, over on a gathering area in a memorial shelter, and some will have particular buildings or halls or areas that are built for it. So it's definitely worth seeing what your natural burial ground has. Yeah, absolutely. Might have a space for it. Yeah, absolutely. And what about the more kind of traditional burials? If they're not, you know, having a cremation, then they wouldn't have the service in a crematorium. So where would they tend to have the service if they were then going for a burial in kind of a traditional sense, in a traditional sense, normally around the graveside. But once again, some will actually the Cardiff crematorium. You can actually use the chapel to and then go to the burial afterwards. So you can use the crematorium chapel, and then you can follow onto the graveside. So there may be facilities and there may be old chapels as part of an old cemetery. The. You can use. So it's quite nice to know that there will be indoor spaces you can use if you want to. But a lot of people will, once again, choose to be gathered around the graveside. And then if there isn't a space there, and you want a space, then find a space, you know, find something that fits. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the thing. There's just so many options. It doesn't need to be. I think everyone thinks, oh, when it's your funeral, you know, you either have a cremation or you go to a church and you have a religious funeral with a burial, and that's it. And it's so not the way anymore. Everyone has so much choice. And I think that's where podcasts like this, you know, all the different podcasts out there within the funeral industry, just the conversations on Instagram, the things that we're doing at AMC like I think it's all so important to make sure that we're having those conversations and making death less of a taboo word, because actually it's something like I just think when I'm working with families, we've got a whole life to think about, and this whole person's life, it's so important that every aspect is thought about. And I think that's where working with the celebrant means that you really do reflect that person and what they want. And I think it's, it's so good to raise awareness of all these different choices, because I didn't know a lot about natural burial grounds when I, you know, before I became a funeral celebrant, and I only did my training about 12 months ago, so I'm still relatively new to the funeral side of things, and I'm learning stuff all the time, especially like, you know, meeting yourself and talking to yourself about different things, like, there's so many options out there, and I think it's just so good that families are aware of those choices that they have got definitely, and it's nice then as well, because if there's say, a museum that hires out a space and they loved history, and you can actually have the ceremony there, like a memorial service or something there, then why not go for it? If that's what they would have loved, and people can then walk around, maybe that the museum afterwards is a little bit of a memorial, because you can have a committal beforehand as well. So you can do the burial ground or the crematorium beforehand, and then you can go on to a venue to have the follow on celebration of life. And it's just perfect, because it makes it personal. It makes it special if they've got a favorite pub, if they've got a favorite place they used to visit, then make the most of it, go and use it. And if, as we just touched on, say, for example, you're going for a burial, whether that be at a natural burial ground or, you know, somewhere else, could you have the service in the crematorium, say, and then where would you go for that burial? Does it need to be a kind of licensed area? Does it need to be a licensed piece of land? Does it have to be somewhere like yourselves, the natural burial ground? Like how does that work if people want the kind of modern option of using a crematorium for the service, but they know they want a burial, how does that kind of work if they don't want to go for something religious and kind of use a church cemetery? That's a really good question. So if you get, if you're buried, if you, you know, they've got to be specific places that you go to, they've got to have planning permission. They've got to have been made sure that that everything was acceptable for for burial. So we went through ecology reports and making sure that everything was acceptable. We've got full planning, you know, we are a burial ground on paper as well as in reality, yeah, but and the same, you'll have your council, you'll you'll cancel cemeteries, you'll have your church cemeteries, but it does have to be like an authorized burial ground as such. But you can have at home burials too, and that's something that's really useful. If someone has a farm, you can get buried at home. There are certain procedures and policies you have to follow so that it's obviously logged with land registry, it's logged with the police, so that they know it's genuine, all of this stuff. But there are ways you can do at home burial, and there's no reason why you couldn't do that. If that's something you wanted, it's just taking into account the fact that if you ever sold that property, you lose the right then to visit. So yes, that's quite important to know, yeah, but, but the other side of it is we have people who will have, I'll have a a burial elsewhere, but they'll still come to us for the service. So sometimes people will use the natural burial ground for the service itself. So they might have a cremation elsewhere, and then they'll just come to us and and use that space for their their celebration of life, because it's somewhere that they love to come to. It's a space that they feel connected to. So actually, in the opposite side of it, you might find that there's a burial ground that fits you just for the service. Yeah, that's lovely. That's a great option. Thank you, Sarah, for that, and what kind of made you make that decision to go from being a celebrant to then going, actually, yes, I want to, you know, open our own natural burial grounds. How, like, when did that come about? Talk to us about that. So when I moved to Pembrokeshire and I realized, you know, there wasn't any natural burial grounds down with us, I was quite surprised, because when I was a celebrant in Cardiff. I did natural burials at Cardiff, natural burial meadow and US Castle Chase natural burial meadow. And they are beautiful places. If anyone's never seen them, pop down, have a look. They are absolutely gorgeous. But we I when I got down there and I realized there was nothing down here. Year, I was quite shocked, because it's a choice that people weren't being offered Yes, and it's people come to Pembrokeshire because they love the countryside, because they love being outdoors, because they love the coastal walks, they love nature. And when the opportunity arose that I had some land and and I looked at it, and I looked at the view across to the press alley mountains, and I just thought this would be the most beautiful, peaceful, lovely space for a natural burial ground. That's kind of when I did it. And obviously I've got quite a lot of links, yeah, of course, funeral industry, yeah. So one of my my funeral director friends, Hugh from Parkman funeral services, said, Oh, why don't you have a chat with leadham. And obviously I'd known leadham from working down in Cardiff anyway, so I spoke to them, and it just went from there. And it's lovely, because it's a really fluid, nice partnership between us, which allows us to offer a really beautiful natural space, which so many people have come to love. I mean, it's not just people who rest with us. Yeah, families, it's that that come to visit them. We have dog walkers. We've got a permissive walk. We do green projects, we we invite families to come back when we're doing special, maybe planting trees, planting bulbs. So it's become a real community place, as well as a space for people to say goodbye to their loved ones in in beautiful countryside. Oh, it's so special. And I think this is the thing, Sarah, every time I listen to you speak, you're you've just got this lovely tone about you, but you can see how much you care. And I think that's the really important thing. This is so meaningful to you, and the fact that you can share that love with your families is just is absolutely lovely. I'm going to move to Pembrokeshire so that when the time comes, I can come and come and rest with you, Sarah, so obviously, we'll take it right back. Now. We've kind of come forward and spoke about your move over into natural burial. But what originally made you decide to do your training as a celebrant? I know we touched on it briefly earlier about, you know, you're a crematorium assistant, and you you wanted to, you know, make a difference, but when did you feel ready? I guess, is the question really, oh, I think, I think sometimes you just get to a point in life, don't you, and you think it's now or never, really. And I think I'd got to that point in my job where I didn't feel that I could progress any further. And and as much as I love my job, and I loved helping people behind the scenes as a chapel attendant, I don't know. I just felt that, that real push to do more and to do it and to get ready. I'd it just felt like the right moment. I suppose it's hard to explain it, but at that point in my life, that was it. I was like, right? This is this? Is it? Yeah, I want to do it now. And I think probably a lot of our our students, you know, when we're mentoring, they're like, oh, no, this is it. I'm ready now. But the lovely thing was, I was able well trained with the AIC years ago when you did training, yeah, and there wasn't the AMC around. It wasn't even a thing. It's, no, it's, and it's, but it's so lovely to see the progression of all these lovely training academies, yeah, how training has progressed to be more personal and to be more hands on, and to be, you know, it's really there's a lot more to it, including the business side of it, than than there ever was and and we've had to learn that as we go along, almost from From from when we started, all the way back, but it's so lovely now that you've got that support and these networks of celebrants that support each other. And when I did it, you know, I I didn't look back. I had the support of all my funeral director fans, yeah, and I was really lucky, you know? I was lucky. I do know that. Yeah, you know it was the right time. Well, you're incredible at what you do. Sarah, honestly, you can just see that passion for it that shines through. And when you're obviously at the natural burial ground, does it work in a similar way to where funeral directors will recommend us as celebrants? Do you do the same? Do you recommend celebrants to families? Like, how does that work? So if someone comes to us and they're not sure who to use. We have a list of useful contacts, and we always try and encourage people to come and see us, to come and learn more about us. So some people will pop along, and they'll come and say hello for the for a visit, and they'll come and talk with me and walk around if they then want me to add their details to our useful contacts page, we will and and that's something that's quite nice that we can offer, because we can say to families, well, why don't you go and have a look on our useful contacts page. Get in touch with a few people, look at their websites, find out who you like the look of, and then find someone who fits you. I know I'm a celebrant myself, and I do do natural burials at the burial ground as a celebrant. Of course, yeah, I may not fit everybody. And it's nice that if someone's got more spiritual link, you know, there might be people that a better fit to them. If someone's got a more you know, if they have a motorbike, I love a motorbike. Yeah, a motorbike celebrant out there, go and embrace it. You know, find someone. I know one. She's amazing, and I think she's a. Does actually, I'll have to pass you her details. Diana limited. She's incredible. Yeah, she's lovely. She's amazing. She's someone described her to me once as mesmerizing, and I was like, Oh my gosh, that is such a good word for her, because she is. She's just absolutely incredible. What a lady, and she loves motorbikes too. So, yeah, that's perfect. But I think exactly like you say, we talk about it all the time, but it is so true you find someone that's the right fit for you, whether that be weddings, namings or funerals, it doesn't matter. Your celebrant needs to fit you, because we are it's such a personal role that actually it needs to be the right person for you. So no, I think that's absolutely fantastic. And what would you say is your one piece of advice to anyone that's, you know, listening to this and thinking, Yeah, I want to be a funeral celebrant. What advice would you give them? I'd say, if it's something you want to follow, look into it and do your research. But it does take time and patience. You know that it's just part of the job. Setting up as a celebrant. Find a good trainer. I've got, well, the AMC, I think is fantastic. I you know, I'm a mentor with them, and I think they're wonderful. There are other trainers out there, but AMC is absolutely fantastic, and I love the fact that we get one to one time with our mentees. Yes, we're really lucky that we get to meet all our mentees and and that practical experience is just so invaluable. You know, having someone behind you to say, Have you thought about this? You know? So find a good trainer, and just embrace it, but give yourself time to build up your celebration. Yes, it doesn't happen overnight. And if you have patience and time, you build that trust. You find out who you are within the industry, do your research, find out about all the different things you can have, all the choices you'll be fine. So time and patience, it's take your time and put the time into it and and everything tends to grow from that fantastic. Oh, Sarah, thank you so much. So if people are listening and they want to find out more about you and your natural burial ground, just let us know where we can find you. So we are pembrokeshi natural burials. You can find us online. We've got our own website. You can, you can get to us through leadham.com or you can go to Pembrokeshire natural burials.co.uk, if you want to have a look. We also do pet burials. So we're quite we have people resting with their pets. Sashes can be included. So we just, we just want everyone to feel welcome, and everyone to know that they can be there together if they want to be. And we are on Instagram. Although I don't update that, that's okay. I don't think any of us do. Don't worry, Sarah and we're on Facebook, so I tend to update that more, so put little updates on Facebook. So that's that one of the ones things that are happening, wildlife, we've seen and and as a celebrant, I am heart Pembrokeshire ceremony. So you can follow me there, if you want to see any bits and pieces that are going on. But if we've got events and things going on, we will update them on the on the website and and on the Facebook page and let people know and and people are always welcome to come and visit and come and say hello if they're about or if they live in Pembrokeshire, fantastic. Oh Sarah, thank you so much for coming on beyond the ceremony. It was an absolute honor, and I would love to have you back again for one specific episode all about natural burial grounds, because I think it's such a big topic. There's so much we can cover. I myself have so many questions, so we'll definitely have to get you back on very soon. Oh, fantastic. And yeah, thank you for having me. It's been lovely. Oh, you're welcome back. Thank you. Sarah, bye, bye.