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I’m the Co · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the System Speak podcast, a podcast about dissociative identity disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:59
  Okay, guys. We need to talk about this. I want to talk about this. It is highly, pleasant to talk about this, but we need to. And it is this book that is literally called codependent no more.
• 1:19
  Do you remember? We did a podcast episode with Nathan, and it was called that he talked about codependency. We're like, oh, yeah. This is Nathan's thing. This is Nathan's thing.
• 1:33
  Mm-mm. Y'all you listeners I can't even with listeners. You all sent me this book, which is apparently an older book, but I didn't know about it. But it is older, so be warned. There's a few things that sound a little dated, but it's wild, you guys, and painful.
• 1:55
  It is so painful. So it is called codependent no more, and it is by Melody Beatty, maybe Beatty. I'm not sure. I will put it in the show notes, but I don't even know where to start with this. You will hear pages turning because there are some things I marked to share with you.
• 2:16
  So I'm gonna flip through just the first couple of chapters a little bit. But just as a teaser, let me start with this, and I quote, we frequently react to people who are destroying themselves. We react by learning to destroy ourselves. You guys, it hurts so much. These habits can lead us into or keep us in destructive relationships, relationships that don't work.
• 2:52
  These behaviors can sabotage relationships that may otherwise have worked. These behaviors can prevent us from finding peace and happiness with the most important person in our lives, ourselves. These behaviors belong to the only person each of us can control, the only person we can change, ourselves. You guys, it's so painful. I'm laughing because it hurts.
• 3:25
  You know how I know this? Because my therapist pointed it out last week in therapy. Isn't it interesting that when you are feeling pain that you start laughing? Do you wanna talk about that? No.
• 3:39
  No. I don't wanna talk about that. Why would I wanna talk about that? Could you stop noticing things, please? Okay.
• 3:47
  So, basically, the fundamental point of this is that these things that make us crazy about other people in our lives are really our own problem. I don't mean in a victim blaming or victim shaming kind of way. I mean in that we're not actually the boss of other people and how they wanna express themselves or what they wanna do about their own lives. We are the boss of ourselves and how we wanna be treated and what relationships we wanna be in and how we want to express ourselves and what we want all that to look like for us. I know.
• 4:25
  I know. I know. Okay. So to even explain all of this, we have to define what codependency is. And the author points out how it's kind of an abstract concept, kind of first mentioned in Minnesota Minnesota somewhere, so I don't know what's going up in Minnesota, but shout out to Minnesota.
• 4:46
  And then they try to define it and give some examples. So let's look at this. First, the author says codependency is an emotional, psychological, and behavioral condition that develops as a result of an individual's prolonged exposure to and practice of a set of oppressive rules. Okay. So we're talking religious trauma.
• 5:15
  We're talking relational trauma. We are talking about that early social contract from childhood. Yes. You may pause this podcast and go vomit. Okay.
• 5:28
  Back to the quote. Rules which prevent the open expression of feeling as well as the direct discussion of personal and interpersonal problems. So here is an important piece. This is a classic piece of codependency that actually connects back to fawning. Part of the reason we have to mask or we have to be fawning to be safe is because part of the social contract in the family or in the relationship is that we are not allowed to talk about our thoughts and feelings, which then leaves us alone in them.
• 6:11
  And so to stay safe, we cannot acknowledge our own thoughts and feelings, which reinforces dissociation and feels dangerous when we try to do so. The author says, we can define codependency as those self defeating learned behaviors or character defects that result in a diminished capacity to initiate or participate in loving relationships. So what happens is we find ourselves in relationships where we can't actually participate in them or have partners who are not participating in them. And instead, we become parents in those relationships or caregivers in those relationships or saviors of the world in those relationships, which is not the same as loving and being loved, not the same as tending and being tended to. The author says codependency is knowing all your relationships will either go on and on the same way painfully or end the same way disastrously, sometimes both.
• 7:30
  Clearly, I'm not in a place to discuss this because it's painful. The author says, when a codependent discontinued his or her relationship with a troubled person, the codependent frequently sought another troubled person and repeated the codependent behaviors with that new person. These behaviors or coping mechanisms seem to prevail throughout the codependent's life if that person didn't change these behaviors. You guys, it makes me so nauseous. So this is why I kept as a young person getting in relationships with people who were addicts, and then that shifted into religiosity.
• 8:14
  And then now, like, what am I doing? This is why I have to have hard conversations. Not because I want to have hard conversations, but because I cannot be fawning and because I want my relationships to be healthy, because the people I have chosen in my life are safe enough to be healthy themselves, to be healthy with me. Because the people I have in my life are safe enough and worth being healthy for. Like, I can't control other people.
• 8:47
  I can't control the people in my life. I can't make them be healthy or decide if they are like, all of that is their fireball. Right? But my fireball is that what I bring to the table, I want to be safe and healthy. I want to be safe and healthy with myself.
• 9:06
  I want to be safe and healthy internally with myself, and I want to be safe and healthy in my relationships. So then they list, like, the actual six unspoken rules of codependent relationships that are most common. Number one, prohibiting discussion about problems. Number two, open expression of feelings. Number three, direct and honest communication not allowed.
• 9:42
  Number four, unrealistic expectations such as not being allowed to be human, vulnerable, or imperfect and not being allowed to make mistakes, not being forgiven of mistakes, and not being able to let go of mistakes. Number five, selfishness. Number six, not being able to trust other people and not being able to trust yourself. Number seven oh, there's eight, not six. I'm sorry.
• 10:15
  I counted it wrong. So number seven, not knowing how to play or have fun. And number eight, not rocking the delicately balanced family canoe through growth or change no matter how healthy and beneficial that movement might be. So actually avoiding growth or being content with what is not meeting your needs or not meeting the needs of others around you is actually a sign of codependency. The author says a codependent person is one who has let another person's behavior affect him or her and who is obsessed with controlling that person's behavior.
• 11:01
  So the other person might be a child, an adult, a lover, a spouse, a brother, a sister, grandparent, parent, client, best friend, whatever. So really, when we are codependent, it is like our safety depends on what other people think about us and what how other people reassure us, which is not the same as it being okay to ask for reassurance. It totally is. That's healthy. But if you cease to exist without that reassurance, then that is some codependency.
• 11:36
  And obsessing about controlling their behavior so that you feel safer. Like, remember, that's part of what control is about. When we are trying to control things or people or our bodies, it is an attempt to increase safety. We are feeling unsafe. So the more controlled we get really is a reflection of our internal instability and dysregulation, but controlling other people isn't actually what brings us healing.
• 12:11
  What brings us healing is seeing clearly, seeing accurately, and expressing those thoughts and feelings as it's safe to do so and responding to protect ourselves when it's not safe to do so. Does that make sense? The author says, the heart of the definition and recovery itself lies not in the other person, no matter how much we believe it does. It lies in ourselves, in the ways we have let other people's behavior affect us, and in the ways we try to affect them, The obsessing, the controlling, the obsessive helping, the obsessive caretaking, the low self worth bordering on self hatred, self repression, abundance of anger and guilt that never gets expressed, dependency on people, attraction to, and tolerance for other centeredness that results in abandonment of self, communication problems, intimacy problems, and an ongoing whirlwind trip through the five stage grief process. Oh my goodness.
• 13:27
  I can't even with this. So much grief. Right? So, basically, when we try to make other people treat us the way that we want to be treated to fill needs, especially when we already have needs waiting because of trauma and deprivation, which is not our fault, and wanting those needs to be met is not our fault. That is because we are human.
• 13:56
  There's nothing wrong with that. But when we try to control other people to make it fit rather than being ourselves and see who other people are can be themselves that we fit with, that is really unhealthy and becomes very toxic. And when we sacrifice ourselves trying to care for other people in order to earn their love in return, then we cease to exist. And that's what she's talking about with self abandonment when now it is that maybe in childhood with trauma and deprivation, we were abandoned in what hurt. We were abandoned in there not being repair.
• 14:40
  We were abandoned in misattunement. We were abandoned sometimes literally. We were abandoned emotionally. We were not tended to or cared for. But when we do that to ourselves, we have become the perpetrator.
• 14:55
  That is reenactment, even if it's only internal. And so when we care for others so much that we stop being ourselves, We have a we are the ones who have abandoned us, and we cannot that is not wild woman. That is not wild people. That is not wild wolves. The author says other people have been hard enough on us already.
• 15:26
  We have been hard enough on ourselves already. We have suffered enough. The suffering is real, y'all. The author tries to give examples to try to paint a picture of how this plays out. The author describes someone who is codependent.
• 15:45
  They say, they have worried themselves sick about other people. They have tried to help in ways that were not actually helpful. They have said yes when they meant no. They have tried to make other people see things their way. They have bent over backward to avoid hurting people's feelings and in doing so, have hurt themselves.
• 16:13
  They have been afraid to trust their own feelings. They have felt betrayed. They have felt tricked. They have wanted to get even and punish others. They have felt so angry.
• 16:27
  They have struggled for their rights while other people said they didn't have any. They have worn sackcloth because they didn't believe they deserved silk. You guys, did you hear that? That reminded me of the hair shirt song that Jules told us about. I think we talked about it in the podcast ages ago.
• 16:47
  But listen, okay, just for the poetry of the power of that sentence. They have worn sackcloth because they didn't believe they deserved silk. Oh my goodness. The author says, I suspect codependents have historically attacked social injustice and fought for the rights of the underdog. Codependents want to help.
• 17:16
  I suspect they have helped, but they probably died thinking they didn't do enough and were still feeling guilty. It is natural to want to protect and help the people we care about. It is also natural to be affected by and react to the problems of people around us. As a problem becomes more serious and remains unresolved, we become more affected and react more intensely to it. You guys, this is like unfawning three point o.
• 17:51
  I can't even. What are we on now? Unfawning six point o? I cannot even. This hurts.
• 17:58
  She says codependency is primarily a reactionary process. Codependents are reactionaries. They overreact and they underreact, but rarely do they ever actually act. They react to the problems, pains, lives, and behaviors of others. They react to their own problems, pains, and behaviors, but they do not act.
• 18:29
  Life for them does not change because they do not make the changes to be healthy. So they continue in unhealthy lives and stay sick. As the people around us become sicker, we react more intensely. What began as a little concern may trigger isolation, depression, emotional or physical illnesses, or even suicidality. One thing leads to another, and things get worse.
• 19:02
  Codependency may not be an illness, but it can make you sick, and it helps the people around you stay sick. It is actually more heroic and life saving to learn how to not react and to act in a more healthy way. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. It is so hard and painful and changes everything so it feels terrifying.
• 19:36
  I don't even have good answers for y'all. I just needed to share what this author had to say, and I'm only on, like, chapter three or chapter two, I think I finished. Last quote for today. Not only can we lovingly detach from other people and take care of ourselves, it is our primary responsibility in life to do that. You guys, I don't have it right, and I am full of mistakes and humanity.
• 20:10
  But I am here, and I am trying, and I am showing up for myself. Y'all, it's been a year. Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemspeak.com.
• 20:48
  We'll see you there.