Latest / True Comfort / A Biochemist's Bold and Costly Faith with Dr. Fuz Rana
Transcript
- Teasi Cannon (00:02) Hi, I'm TC and I want to welcome you to true comfort where it's our desire to live out 2 Corinthians chapter one, verses three and four, which assure us that we have a God who comforts us in all our afflictions and encourage us to share the comfort that we've received with others who need it. And I want to welcome my guest today, Dr. Fuzhal. I'm blowing it again. You say it. Fuzz Raina. Fuzzle, Dr. Fuzzle, Raina, but he goes by Fuzz and I am so honored to have you here. Thank you so much. Fuz Rana (00:35) thank you for having me. It's pleasure to be with you. I always enjoy hanging out with you, your husband, so thank you. Teasi Cannon (00:42) Yeah, I wanna read for listeners just a little bit of your bio and then have you share a little more about what you're doing now. So ⁓ Fuzz is the president and CEO and senior scholar at Reasons to Believe, an organization that exists to open people to the gospel by revealing God in science. His books include Humans 2.0, Fit for a Purpose and Dinosaur Blood and the Age of the Earth. And I am just... absolutely thrilled to have you because I love that your ministry helps people to see that good science and solid faith are not at odds with one another. And I absolutely loved biology and zoology in high school. I never went any farther than that, but I've always been intrigued by science. I'm not a scientist, so I really appreciate your brilliance and your ministry. But what else are you doing right now? Is there anything like any special projects going on in your world? Fuz Rana (01:36) Yeah, well, one of the projects I'm working on right now is putting on the finishing touches on a book with the working title, Should We Play God? the whole idea behind the book is, you know, we're at a time where there are these incredible emerging biotechnologies, gene editing, cloning, stem cell biology, that can be applied in some very interesting ways, primarily to modify existing organisms or Teasi Cannon (01:46) Ooh, that's good. Fuz Rana (02:05) create entirely new organisms altogether. And these technologies have incredible promise, but they also raise a number of ethical issues and even theological issues. So the book is really, how do we think well as Christians about emerging biotechnology with the idea, where can we support the technology? Where do we need to raise flags of caution? And I've been in collaboration on the project with a guy named George Haraxin. good friend of mine who's a philosopher and ethicist, also a former pastor. So we're looking at scientific and philosophical and ethical and theological issues all kind of combined together with the goal of really creating a framework that allows people to think for themselves as Christians, but to think Christianly about emerging biotechnologies. Teasi Cannon (03:01) Well, when is that book gonna be out? Fuz Rana (03:03) ⁓ About a year from now, it's slated for October of 26. So it's, yeah, I'm just as anxious as the next person, I guess, to get the book out. But there's a process, unfortunately. Teasi Cannon (03:05) Okay. Okay. Yeah, I wonder, is that kind of frustrating from the science perspective because of new developments? Like the publishing world is interesting because you can have your manuscript written and it's not gonna actually be available to the public for a full year, but the science might, you might have some actually fun additions to your data by then. Is that, I mean, a little bit frustrating? Fuz Rana (03:37) yeah, I mean that's always the challenge when you're doing anything dealing with science and the Christian faith. And I realized that right away. mean, the advances that are happening in biotechnology are so rapid, which is part of the issue. Nobody has time to even think about ethically what is it that we're doing, let alone really understand the implications before the next advance and the next advance happens. So instead of trying to fight that, what we did in the book is just said, look, Teasi Cannon (03:41) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Fuz Rana (04:06) What we're going to do when it comes to the science is explain to you what are the basics of, let's say, gene editing, right, when you're creating GMOs. What are the basics? How do people go about doing that? Why are people doing this work? And then give people some examples of where people have developed GMOs and the rationale for doing that with the idea that then people hopefully are equipped themselves. So when the new advance happens, they're able to process that from a scientific and a technical standpoint and then be equipped with a theological and an ethical framework to think about the advance, again, from a Christian worldview perspective. So we just didn't fight it at all. We just said, look, in fact, we make it very clear in the book, by the time you pick up this book, some of the science in here very well could be dated. Teasi Cannon (04:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (05:00) Right. But that's OK, because what we're trying to do is teach you principles. Teasi Cannon (05:05) So is this a book, for lay level readers or is it mostly academic scholarly level? Fuz Rana (05:11) I think if you have a ⁓ good high school biology class under your belt or a good college introductory biology class, you should be able to handle the book. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (05:17) Okay. Okay, great. Like you said, it does feel like we're just on a conveyor belt in some ways with scientific advances, AI, most of us that are just living your typical life of trying to go to the grocery store, put dinner on the table. We're not really investigating these things or even it can feel very overwhelming. So I'm very. excited to read your book and just to stay as informed as possible, which it's impossible to be informed about everything that's going on, which is why I love that you're going to bring in the theological elements, which is where to anchor our hope in the midst of an increasingly rapidly changing world of technology that can feel overwhelming. So. Fuz Rana (06:01) Well, you know, even for somebody who isn't necessarily savvy with respect to the science, ⁓ there are chapters that are primarily focused on building a theology for biotechnology. And people can consume those chapters and at least understand theologically and philosophically how they should begin to approach emerging biotechnology. So even then, we hope that that's a help for people. Teasi Cannon (06:14) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (06:30) even if they're not really wanting to jump into the science or at least the deep end of the science. Teasi Cannon (06:37) That's great. And I will put information in the show notes on how to find Reasons to Believe as well as your website. And then I'm sure people can follow along to track the progress of when that book is coming out. And others, you have so many wonderful articles, videos, other projects going on, resources for children, for churches, all of that available, which I ⁓ will put information on how to find. just to remind listeners, I am doing each week is I am intentionally inviting a guest who has studied the reasons, the evidence for the biblical worldview in some way, but who is willing to come and open their heart for us to share with us something from their personal life where they've experienced suffering or heartbreak or an ongoing challenge so that we can know as Christians we aren't alone when we suffer, when we go through hard times. But also that we're not fools for believing that the promises we read in God's Word, the comfort that we receive from Him when we read the Bible, those are not empty promises. Those promises have great substantiation. And so I am very, very thankful for Fuzz coming here to help equip us by sharing his heart and his journey so that we will have more tools in our tool belt when we experience hard things in the future and doubts of our own and also that we will be more equipped to help others who are struggling. so Fuzz, I am going to just allow you to share your heart with us and thank you once again. Fuz Rana (08:18) Yeah, well, thank you again, for having me. you know, I just want to applaud you when I learned about your podcast and what you're trying to do with it. I really applaud you for doing this because, in my opinion, the Church today really has a very impoverished theology for suffering. And, you know, in the midst of suffering, it's natural, I think, to have questions, to have doubts. And, you know, Teasi Cannon (08:35) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (08:47) there needs to be a framework for Christians to really think about and manage the suffering that they endure with the idea that it's suffering isn't something that's going to come out of left field that should surprise you, but it really is very much part of our experience as Christians. And so we should expect suffering and Scripture really guides us, I think, very well in terms of how to navigate that suffering. Teasi Cannon (09:06) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (09:16) And this is where apologetics becomes important too, because having objective reasons in the midst of circumstances where it just doesn't make sense is an anchor. It's a place that you can latch onto. So thank you for doing this, and I'm humbled that you would invite me onto the show. Teasi Cannon (09:27) Yeah. Wow, well, thank you for that. I you hit it right right in the heart of what I'm hoping is just to show that Taking time to love Jesus with our minds, which many might perceive as a dry intellectual endeavor, is actually a gift of love from God, so that when our hearts are crushed, we have something to draw upon in our minds, the evidence that we have investigated. And I always say, I feel like the apologetics that I have studied equips my mind to come to the rescue of my heart when it's crushed. And so thank you for seeing that, and thank you for that encouragement, and I really appreciate it. Fuz Rana (10:14) Yeah, well, know, to really, I mean, when you ask me again onto the show, you know, there's probably a lot, there's a laundry list of things I could talk about. And sadly, some of them are so personal, not that I mind sharing them, but there are other people that were impacted that I love that I don't know that they necessarily want this exposed publicly. So the first point I'm making is, you know, There's been a lot that my wife and I have had to struggle with, you know, as part of our faith. And I don't think through that process I ever doubted God or God's love. But boy, I sure had questions as to why on earth did I have to go through this, you know, or my family have to go through this. You know, but the one thing I want to share has to do with my relationship with my father. So to understand this, I got to tell you Teasi Cannon (10:59) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (11:13) a little bit about my story and my journey to faith in Christ. ⁓ Some people are aware of this, others may not be, but my name is unusual and it's actually a common Urdu name. My father was from India, ⁓ was a devout Muslim and lived in India before India won its independence from Great Britain. And when that happened, there was what's called the Partition and you know, the states of East and West Pakistan were created and anyone who was a Muslim was forced to immigrate into either East or West Pakistan. And it was a brutal, brutal time where people were just being slaughtered on the roadside. And people that lived in what is now West Pakistan and East Pakistan, now Pakistan and Bangladesh, as they were forced to immigrate into India and they were slaughtered along the way. In fact, when I worked at Procter & Gamble a number of years ago, there was an older Indian gentleman who I became good friends with, he had a very similar story to my father, where he was forced, my father was forced to immigrate from India into Pakistan, and he was forced to immigrate from what's now Pakistan into India. And the stories were almost virtually identical. It was just a brutal, brutal time. But my father is also, or was, he's no longer living, a nuclear physicist, and came to the US via Canada in the 1950s and worked for a number of years in industry, general dynamics, and then took up a teaching position. And that's where he met my mother, who came from a Catholic background. She was a non-practicing Catholic, and so they fell in love and got married. And my father was, again, very devout as a Muslim, but He wasn't a fundamentalist, so he had a very modern expression of Islam. And I've met a number of Muslims over the years who almost are identical in terms of their theology to my father. Typically in Islam, if a non-believer marries a believer, that non-believer needs to convert to Islam, but my father never asked my mother to do that. And it didn't really matter. She wasn't interested in religion at all. Again, my father was devout. I remember him getting up every morning. going through a ritual cleansing. would lay out a prayer carpet, face the East and pray, carried a prayer booklet with him in his breast pocket everywhere he went. ⁓ But again, he was also very modern in terms of his theological framework. So growing up, I had the most exposure to ⁓ Islam ⁓ and a little bit of exposure to Christianity through Catholicism. My mom's ⁓ mother and father, my grandparents were devout Catholics. So if we visited them or they came to visit us, we would go to Catholic church. That was the only real exposure I had. I had no concept of what was going on. So grew up in a home where my father was a nuclear physicist, my mom was a science and math teacher in junior high and high school, and Islam permeated our home. But if there was a God in our household, it was education. and particularly education in the sciences. So that's the environment that I grew up in. My father was very much a stern Indian father. He was absolutely no-nonsense. ⁓ You know, ⁓ you know, ⁓ he expected, you know, ⁓ good grades from us and expected ⁓ both of us to go to medical school, right? That's the... Teasi Cannon (14:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Fuz Rana (15:04) The quintessential accomplishment for an Indian parent is their child goes to medical school and becomes a doctor. So that was the environment that I had growing up. Teasi Cannon (15:17) Yeah, so ⁓ how long ago did your dad pass away? Fuz Rana (15:23) He died in 1997. So it's been a number of years since he's died. it's interesting because my father was, he retired as the chairman of the physics department of a small school in West Virginia, West Virginia Institute of Technology. And growing up, I would meet people who had my father in class. And he was quite an intimidating professor. again, very much stern, very no-nonsense. And they would joke that, man, he walked in the room and I would be intimidated. And I said, try growing up in the household with this guy. He was intimidating for me. But you know, it's interesting because where this is going is, you know, as a young man, you you look to your father for how to be man, right? Teasi Cannon (15:59) Right. Fuz Rana (16:17) You look to your father in terms of how do you, how should I grow up in terms of developing my relationships as a husband, as a father, right? And so I really craved a relationship with my father and it just simply wasn't coming. He was again, very much no nonsense in that respect. And so ⁓ very distant as a father. And so as a... ⁓ teenager, I really wanted to connect with my father. And I also wanted to make sense of really where I came from, my heritage. And so I began to explore Islam. So I went to my father and said, I'm very interested in becoming a Muslim. So I recited the Shahada, which is the declaration that Allah is the one true God, Muhammad is his one true prophet. ⁓ You know, I learned to pray from my father and I began to read from a Quran, an English translation of a Quran, and spent probably about a year and a half doing that. And so there wasn't, where I grew up, there wasn't a mosque anywhere. But occasionally the Muslim community would invite everybody together for a prayer meeting, a time of prayer. So I can remember doing that on several occasions. Teasi Cannon (17:40) Mm. Fuz Rana (17:44) with my father, the whole family went. But so, you know, I was very comfortable being, at least starting off on that path of being a Muslim, and about a year and half into it became really just disillusioned. ⁓ Part of it is in Islam, prayer is very different from a Christian worldview perspective, In Christianity, when we're praying, we're in God's presence and we're Teasi Cannon (17:57) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (18:14) communing with God. Right? In Islam, prayer is an obligation. You're going through this rote prayer over and over and over again with the idea that this is going to appease or please Allah. There's nothing in it that comes out of that. Right? That coupled with just the Quran being very esoteric and difficult to, for me, at least at that point in my life, to understand. Just, you know, Teasi Cannon (18:29) Mm. Fuz Rana (18:45) it became really a toil to engage in religious practices. And there wasn't really a community of Muslims that I could really connect with. So I was on an island by myself. And, you know, I'm a teenage boy, right? So it's rock music and girls and sports. You combine all that together and it's by the time I graduated high school, it's like, I'm not interested in religion, don't know if God exists, don't even care. Teasi Cannon (18:53) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. For that short time that you were trying to devote yourself to Islam, did it draw you closer to your dad? Was there a period of time when that did create a little bit more intimacy between the two of you? Fuz Rana (19:29) Yeah, to some degree. mean, I really felt like ⁓ this was something I truly shared with my father. And I really felt that he was pleased with what I was doing. Right. So, yeah, in that sense, it did draw us closer. You know, but again, my father was also from India. you know, the parent-child relationship, you know, in that cultural context is... It's not a lot of times, you know, unconditional love, right? It's very much predicated on, you know, what you're doing and what is expected of you and are you fulfilling those expectations? And so at that point, I was, you know, fulfilling those expectations. You know, but by the time I went to college, ⁓ I didn't really have a faith. I wouldn't not have ever denied God's existence. Teasi Cannon (20:04) Right, yeah. Hmm. Fuz Rana (20:28) But religion just simply wasn't important to me. And then here I am, I enrolled in a pre-med program. The sum total of my decision was I was a good student in high school and my dad told me to be a doctor, so there we go. But I later very quickly decided, hey, medicine isn't for me, I really want to be a biochemist. Teasi Cannon (20:45) Yeah. Fuz Rana (20:55) ⁓ And I can remember telling my dad that's what I was interested in and he was furious with me. was, yeah, that decision he felt was a huge mistake and that I would regret it and was quite angry with me, which again, wasn't that unusual. I did something that my father wasn't pleased with and that ⁓ set us on a trajectory where the relationship was... Teasi Cannon (21:00) Really? Hmm. Fuz Rana (21:23) again on very rocky grounds. But as an undergraduate student, I'm taking courses in biology and chemistry, and particularly in my biology courses. The mantra was evolution can explain everything. some of my biology professors were quite critical of Christianity. I can remember, ⁓ Biology 101, there was a philosophy student who was a Christian. Teasi Cannon (21:25) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (21:52) guy named Clarence, I can remember him very distinctly, and he would challenge our biology professor and she would just eviscerate him. And, you know, I just thought, what an idiot, you know, this guy is. But that was the view I was formulating of Christianity. You know, and I had friends who were Christians and they would share their faith with me, but it's like, just not interested. I'm not moved because I'm not even sure. Teasi Cannon (22:00) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Fuz Rana (22:19) God exists, right? And so the gospel doesn't make any sense to me. Now, interestingly enough, I had a friend named David, and his father was a Methodist minister. I'm not quite sure where David was on the faith spectrum, but he and I would sure get into conversations that we had no business getting into, you know, about, like, was Jesus haploid or diploid or... Yeah, yeah. So, you know, so here we are, these snot-nose punks, you know, with... Teasi Cannon (22:39) You ⁓ that's funny. ⁓ Fuz Rana (22:49) little bit of science under our belts and, you know, very little understanding of theology and boy we're going to town. But one of the conversations that we had which was very interesting was, ⁓ boy, you know, if you understood Day as a period of time in Genesis 1, isn't it remarkable the congruence between the Genesis 1 account and the record of science? I can remember that conversation. Now, you know, friend and colleague and mentor Hugh Ross, when he had that revelation, A, Christianity is true, but for me it didn't have that impact. And it was really in graduate school that I became convinced that there had to be a creator just from the elegant design of biochemical systems. But I wasn't sure who that creator was. I, you know, speculating in areas I had no business speculating in. But I began to go down a path of universalism where I just reasoned, look, the different religions of the world teach the same thing from a moral standpoint. These are just probably different ways that God has revealed himself to different people at different times. And I really felt quite comfortable with that perspective. I was convinced that there was a creator, wasn't sure who God was or how I related to God, but I became very interested in those types of questions. And, ⁓ you know, in retrospect, that was an incredibly naive perspective to hold because all the religions can't be true. Either one's true and they're all are false or they all are false, but they all can't be true because they teach very different things about the nature of God, the nature of reality. But again, I, you know, was very much a novice and it just simply made sense. you know, there's an element of universalism that's part of Islam. Teasi Cannon (24:26) Right. Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (24:46) You know, the different religious figures in history were different prophets that God sent to different people at different times, that type of thing. So there's an element of ⁓ universalism that's part of Islam. you know, that, you know, in retrospect also makes sense that I would hold that view. But it was, ⁓ as an undergraduate student, I met my wife-to-be and fell in love with her. She was a biology major and I was a chemistry major, so there was good chemistry between us. Really, really bad joke. Yeah, so anyway, yeah, so we got engaged, but she promised her mom, look, I'm not going to get married till I get my undergraduate degree. So we were engaged for three years. I was a year ahead of her. So when I was in graduate school, Teasi Cannon (25:21) No, but it's true though. Fuz Rana (25:45) and God began to work in my life, revealing himself to me. She had grown up in a Christian home and dedicated her life to Christ as a teenager and then kind of drifted away. And her mom invited her to a Easter service at a small church that she was going to. That was a small Pentecostal church in downtown Charleston, West Virginia. Don't know the name of the church, I just called it Johnny's Church because the pastor's name was... Johnny Withrow, but she ⁓ really was moved by the service and rededicated her life to Christ and began to share with me her faith. And so it got to the point where we were going to be married and she got Johnny to agree to do the service, but he wanted to meet with me. And interestingly enough, to Johnny's credit, he ⁓ never really pushed, but just simply said, look, if you're a scientist, you should be open to truth no matter where it comes from. I grew with that. And, you know, have you ever read the Bible? Not really. No. goes, well, how do know it's not true? Well, I don't. And so I felt like, you know, Johnny's got a point. And, you know, my wife is a Christian. I at least need to understand Christianity. Even if I don't want to be a Christian. And to me that would be perfectly fine because I grew up in a home where my parents had very different religious convictions. ⁓ And so reading the Gospel of Matthew and the Sermon on the Mount was just life-changing because here I encountered the person of Christ. He was extremely winsome and I loved what he was teaching. I agreed this is true. This is the way to live an authentically righteous life. Teasi Cannon (27:18) Yeah. Fuz Rana (27:42) but I was not able to live up to that standard. And so I recognized my sin. And one of Johnny's friends who was with us when we were having our conversation gave me a little track. And so I read through the track and discovered, wow, all I have to do is recognize my sin, trust that what Jesus did on the cross is going to reconcile me to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, will forgive me of my sins, and... I can be in a right relationship with God, which is amazing. This is the God that created the universe, that creates these incredible biochemical systems I get to study and I get to know this creator in an intimate way. But through that process, I had what I would call a religious experience. I've never had anything like this before or since, but there literally was like there was a person in the room with me. what I was doing is I was a grad student working in the lab during the day. I didn't want anybody to know I was reading the Bible. So I would wait till everybody went home and I'd go back into the lab and I'd sit at the lab bench with the Bible and I would read it. And literally it was like there was somebody else in the lab with me and I had this overwhelming conviction that this is true, right? It was a religious experience. And that experience was so real that I don't think I could ever deny the truth of Christianity, regardless of what Teasi Cannon (29:07) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (29:09) the scientific evidence would say, regardless of anything, ⁓ that experience was so real that I could never deny Christianity, which is where the whole heartache comes into play. Because I can remember ⁓ telling my mother and my father that I had become a Christian. And my mother was very upset by that. Teasi Cannon (29:11) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (29:38) I'm not quite sure to this day why. My father was furious. If there was any relationship we had, it came to an end at that point in time. And he basically said, look, ⁓ I disown you unless you renounce your faith. Renounce your faith or I disown you. And I want nothing to do with you. And I just, couldn't. It's like this is... Teasi Cannon (29:40) Mm. Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (30:07) This is so real, I can't do that. you know, from an Islamic perspective, I number one is I committed blasphemy, right? To attach another person to Allah is considered a shirk. That's the unpardonable sin. And on top of that, you know, from his mindset, you know, from the East, it's like you have just insulted your entire Teasi Cannon (30:17) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (30:36) family, your entire heritage, you have turned your back on your family as a result of your conversion. And this friend that I had who was an Indian when I worked at Procter and Gamble, I remember telling him once, know, Pram, I'm a Christian because you can't be. Because your father was a Muslim. You cannot be a Christian. Right? That's the mindset is you have to be what your family was. That's your religious path. Teasi Cannon (30:38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Fuz Rana (31:06) right? And it's all about your, you know, if not, you're turning your back on your family. So that just completely decimated the relationship that I had with my father. And, know, whenever we got together, it would be an argument. I was a very young believer. I hadn't even really read through the Bible yet. And it was just, there was no way I was going to effectively engage my father at all about my faith. Eventually got to the point where we could tolerate being in the same room with each other as long as we just didn't really talk or talk about very superficial things. And usually my father would be the one that would bring up, you need to renounce your faith, you need to renounce your faith. And I just simply couldn't. Again, and, you know, My mom later told me that for my father, my conversion, he viewed that as being one of the biggest failures in his life. of course, there was a guilt trip that my mom was laying on me. And she would say, your dad has these dreams where his father is coming to him in his dreams and is angry with him because of your conversion. Teasi Cannon (32:12) Mm. Right. Fuz Rana (32:31) And so, you know, and my father, you know, began to become ill. It was part of the aging process, but he viewed that as being a punishment from Allah. Right. And so he was very much ⁓ in anguish because of my conversion. And part of it is Islamic theology, where oftentimes when you experience suffering, it's because you've committed sin. There's something that Allah is Teasi Cannon (32:32) Mm. Fuz Rana (33:01) punishing you for. And that was how my father viewed, you know, his ailments, his physical ailments, was this was a punishment coming from Allah, which, you know, in light of what we're talking about, this is a stark contrast to how Christians view suffering, right? But, you know, to me that was, you know, ⁓ really, ⁓ it was just a real struggle for me. And again, I could never really reach my father. And then Teasi Cannon (33:17) Mm-hmm. Right. Fuz Rana (33:31) you get the phone call that you never really want to get, which is, your father is in the hospital, he's probably not going to make it. So, you know, I can just remember going to visit him and literally watching him die as a Muslim. But during that process, his death took place over the course of about a week before we finally said, look, he's not going to get better, we really need to take him off life support. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (33:37) Mm-hmm. Wow. Fuz Rana (34:02) I ⁓ was laying in bed at night trying to sleep and I just remembered from 1st Thessalonians, give thanks in all things, right? 1st Thessalonians 5, I think is the passage. also, know, passage is like Psalm 34, praise God in all circumstances. And so that's what I began to do, is I just began to praise God and just spend time thanking God for my father. And it was remarkable because through that process, I was able to forgive my father completely. Even though we were not reconciled, I was able to forgive my father. I was able to understand my father with a great deal of sympathy. And I was able to be extremely grateful for what my father did for me. Right? mean, he was, you know, he, you know, his whole idea of being stern and hard was life is hard. You know, he grew up where his family lost everything, right? Because of the partition. And, you know, he had to pull himself up by his bootstraps, you know, know, literally with having nothing, watching family members die because of that, that partition. And so he just wanted to make me Teasi Cannon (35:13) Yeah. Fuz Rana (35:30) me tough, right? And that was part of the way he expressed love, you know, was through, you know, through being, being stern. And, you know, so I was very, very, very grateful to him. And I'm going to tell you a story in a little bit about my, my father and really what exemplified his love for me. But that was absolutely remarkable is to this day, I can laugh about, you know, who my father was and in my relationship with him in the context of, he was a typical Indian father and this is what it's like to grow up in an Indian household. But I have enormous admiration for him and respect for him as a man of science, as an educator, ⁓ somebody who really loved his family and worked hard in life and scrimped and saved, ⁓ did without so that his children could have opportunities. Teasi Cannon (36:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Fuz Rana (36:29) So, you know, it's just amazing how being obedient to that passage of Scripture really just... I'm not bitter about, my relationship with my Father whatsoever, and very grateful. Teasi Cannon (36:42) Yeah, yeah, that is such a fruit of the Christian life is that ability to release bitterness, that ability to feel mercy, to be able to look at painful circumstances and treasure hunt them. because of the love that we have received because of the unconditional love that we understand I think as you were talking there were so many heartbreaking aspects to the story, one that stood out to me was just your dad having visions of his own dad coming and being so disappointed that you had walked away from the faith. And it shows that your dad, I mean, obviously I don't know what his entire childhood looked like, but I can assume that he grew up in a very fear-based atmosphere in his home where there wasn't intimacy or warmth. But it shows there's this desire to please our father in way because we want to be pleasing. We want to have relationship and your dad didn't have that and therefore didn't didn't have it to give to you but you've had this beautiful encounter which I absolutely believe 100 % the supernatural encounter you had with the love of God and the presence of God that has kind of broken that cycle where your, the line is drawn, I'm sure. But I have no doubt there has been a lot to untangle from that. And I'm wondering, know, also another thing I wanna highlight that you said about your encounter in the lab there, reading, being aware of... that the God that you were believing in scientifically had to be there was the God of the Bible, you mentioned that you became aware of your sin. And I'm noticing that and just kind of pondering, you know, we see these deconstruction stories and I don't wanna get off base here too much, but sometimes I wonder. if there was ever that awareness because it's hard for me to understand fully walking away from Jesus once if you fully understand your sin and the gift that's being given to you by what he did on the cross. what you deserve and what you aren't having to pay. So I'm just pointing out that I heard that you were very clearly aware of that and you were very clearly aware of your need for a savior, a mediator, something to cover that sin between you and this big creator God. But I'm wondering, before you share more. your relationship with your father and that works based sort of transactional relationship that you had, have you found that you've had to disentangle that at all with your relationship with God? Fuz Rana (39:43) that's a really good question. You know, probably I need to spend more time, you know, working in that arena because I think it's very easy, particularly once you've been a Christian for a while, to think, look at all these great things that I'm doing for God. God must really be pleased with me. But yeah, you know, ⁓ it's very much how I still engage people in relationships and even in terms of my marriage. Right? It's hard for me to accept the idea that God just loves me because of who I am. Right? I intellectually know that, but I think there's this compulsion to please and to, you know, and I try very much in my ministry not for that to be, you know, the emphasis of what I do. Right? I'm not doing this to please God. I'm doing this out of gratitude for what God has done for me. and because I have a heart to see God's love impact people's lives. And so I can intellectually say that, but I think that's a really insightful question to see is I probably am still struggling, frankly, with this idea that do I have to earn people's approval for them to really value me? And do I have to earn that approval for me to even value myself? So yeah. Teasi Cannon (41:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (41:09) I probably have more work to do. Teasi Cannon (41:13) Well, I think we all do. I mean, we're all just trying to untangle lies that we've believed based on our experience with authority figures and our families, but awareness is the first step. So I'm happy to have made you aware of this if you haven't thought about it before. But, you know, how have you seen your your Christianity changed the trajectory in your own marriage? And I guess I'm wondering also, is your mom still around and how has she, if so, how's that relationship? Fuz Rana (41:51) Yeah, she's still around and it's, you know, a so-so relationship. She's getting older and, you know, is struggling with a lot of health issues right now. And, you know, she ⁓ did have a, after my father died and she ended up remarrying and she and her husband did have ⁓ a conversion, but I'm not sure how deep her faith really is. Teasi Cannon (41:58) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Fuz Rana (42:19) But it's a so-so relationship. ⁓ Yeah, and you know, ⁓ it's interesting, I guess, that you're asking too, ⁓ in terms of, you know, how have I, you know, engaged my kids? And I've tried to be much more approachable, much more accessible. But, you know, I also am afraid and probably keenly aware that at times I can be emotionally distant as well. And I think part of that is Teasi Cannon (42:53) Hmm. Fuz Rana (42:55) just the household that I grew up in. But, know, ⁓ that's something I'm aware of. ⁓ But I tried to be a very different father in terms of being much more emotional, much more supportive, ⁓ really ⁓ helping my kids discover who they were as opposed to imposing on them who I wanted them to be. Teasi Cannon (42:57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I mean, with that said, I'm really thankful that you would come on a show called True Comfort. So that, mean, you know, like having it be something that is a just an outpouring of your love for Christ to be able to tap into the heart. And so that's indicative of trans of just transformation. Fuz Rana (43:46) Well, you know, it's interesting because one of the things that has been a gift to me that has come from my father, there's been number of gifts. One of them is just being able to see Christianity through the lens of Islam, because there so many ideas in Christianity that we just take for granted that are incredibly radical, that are really, really radical ideas. Teasi Cannon (44:08) Yeah. Fuz Rana (44:14) And then also I'm involved in ministry because of my father, right? Because when he died afterwards, I really had this recognition that I'm not playing a game, right? That this is serious business, that there are people who are going to die like my father apart from Christ. And my wife's Aunt Mary Ellen said something to me that has been really, really helpful for me. to make sense of my father's death as a non-believer. And that is you have to trust God's character. He's a God of justice, but he's also a God of mercy. And that you can put your father in his hands and what God's going to do is going to be the right thing, right? It's going to be completely justified. And for me, that brought me comfort. I don't know where my father is, don't, but I... Teasi Cannon (44:49) Yeah. Yeah. you Fuz Rana (45:10) know that he died apart from Christ, at least as far as I could tell. There was nothing that indicated that he had converted. But that motivated me into ministry. Instead of using my talents to make money for a Fortune 500 company and reap the benefits of doing that, recognized, look, the most important thing I can do as a scientist is to help people see how science points people to Teasi Cannon (45:18) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (45:40) to the gospel, towards the gospel. so that my father's death was, at least for me, that was part of the redemption is that it really motivated me towards that end. And it was shortly thereafter that I was able to join reasons to believe first as a volunteer, then later as a staff person. So that's my involvement in ministry, it flows out of my father. Teasi Cannon (45:52) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (46:08) Another gift, again, is being able to see Christianity through the lens of Islam. you know, one of the things that upset my father enormously is the idea that I would commit blasphemy, that I would attach, you know, someone else to God, right? And Islam, the idea is that God is great beyond our imagination, right? And so everything that is done in Islam is to... recognize and to preserve God's greatness. so the idea that there is a Trinity in Christianity is a deep offense or that Jesus would be part of the divine Godhead, right? That he would be part of the Godhead. And the idea of the incarnation is unthinkable to a Muslim, I'm sorry, an Islam, because why would God condescend himself? Teasi Cannon (46:39) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (47:06) to take on the form of a human being and then to suffer a humiliating death on the cross. there's an element of mobility to sacrificing yourself for another person, but to humiliate yourself for another person. And this is something that I saw my father do for me once. ⁓ And ⁓ I was a bit, well, not a bit, I was a big troublemaker in high school. I was a... know, valedictorian of my class, but I was constantly in trouble to the point where I had to give the valedictorian speech at a graduation and people were, the teachers were contemplating not letting me do it because they were that afraid of what I was going to So, but I had this English teacher as a senior and she and I just locked horns and I could tell you a funny story about her, but well, I'll tell you the story as part of this. It's hysterical, but anyway, so Teasi Cannon (47:48) Well, what you were gonna do. Fuz Rana (48:05) She and I locked horns all year long. And it was, I was at fault. She was a victim of my mischievous personality. But she was a very prim and proper person and she taught English literature and she had a love affair with the first Queen Elizabeth, right? Who was a patron of the arts. And so on our final exam, the question was why was Queen Elizabeth so well loved? she was built like a red brick outhouse, but used a little bit more colorful language. She didn't think that was amusing. And I can remember her calling our household and speaking to my father and saying, look, I'm going to fail him in the class, which means I wouldn't graduate. I literally saw my father beg on my behalf. And it's like, wow, you know, here's an example of somebody that Teasi Cannon (48:36) you Hmm. Fuz Rana (49:03) was condescending and if you knew my father, this was so out of character. He was one of the brightest people I've ever known. He was, again, this very stern, intimidating personality. He just had a presence about him. And it's like I could never imagine my father begging anybody for anything and here he was on my behalf. But this is literally... Teasi Cannon (49:08) Hmm. Fuz Rana (49:32) a picture of the humiliation that Jesus must have felt on the cross. And that is the ultimate expression of love. And so what you see in Christ is the greatest expression of God's greatness, not only love, but God's greatness. Because to love somebody and to humiliate yourself for somebody's sake is the greatest expression of love that there could be. And that's the greatest attribute of God. And so Teasi Cannon (49:40) Right. Right. Fuz Rana (50:01) You know, it's very helpful for me to see Christianity through that lens. Now, here's the funny part of the story. A ⁓ number of years later, I published a book, Who Was Adam? It was published originally in 2005. And in each chapter, I have a epigraph from Shakespeare. One of the things that Mrs. Hodges, my senior English teacher, did was she taught me a love of Shakespeare. So I'm this really weird guy who's a science guy, but... Teasi Cannon (50:27) Hmm. Fuz Rana (50:30) Shakespeare and can quote Shakespeare. And so it is all because of Mrs. Hodges. And so I, in the acknowledgement, I mentioned her, or actually in the introduction of the book, I mentioned her. And so when the book was published, I wanted to get a copy into her hands, just to say, look, this guy that you had to put up with actually amounted to something and actually really learned something and benefited from your class, a lifelong benefit. Teasi Cannon (50:50) Yeah. Yeah. Fuz Rana (51:00) And I sadly discovered that she had died a few years earlier, but I was able to contact her granddaughter who grew up and her Mrs. Hodges and her husband raised her raised her and she goes, you're not that guy that wrote on his exam that Queen Elizabeth was built like a redwood. He thought that was hilarious. She busted my chops. Teasi Cannon (51:03) that's a bummer. so she was telling that story at Thanksgiving dinner probably. Yeah. That was so funny. Fuz Rana (51:28) and but she thought that was the funniest thing and would tell that story over and over and over again. So anyway, ⁓ so I'm not sure what how much more I've got, but I'm happy to have you put me on the spot and convict me. Teasi Cannon (51:33) She loved you. She loved you if she was telling that story to her family or granddaughter. That's Yeah, no, I... Yeah, no, I... There's... Thank you. mean, so much of what you've said is so encouraging. I think one thing that I wanted to ask you because I'm not really super educated on the Muslim faith, but you mentioned the love. And isn't it true? I mean, I've heard this, correct me if I'm wrong, but Allah is not loving. He's great, but there's no intimacy. There's no relationship. There's no love. And so all the prayers, all the actions, everything is really birthed out of fear and really uncertainty, whether you're going to be rewarded when you die or punished or, and that is that pretty much one of those differences that you would say you're able to see through the lens of Islam. Fuz Rana (52:32) Yes, that's very well stated. In fact, sometimes people speak about Islamic agnosticism, where God is just simply not knowable. And to say that you can somehow know God or be in a relationship with God is blasphemous, because you're saying you're now elevating yourself to the level of God. But this is something that is very much an integral part of the Christian faith, is that not only Teasi Cannon (52:42) Mm. Mm. Yeah. Fuz Rana (53:01) Are we part of a corporation that is in a relationship with God, but individually we are, right? That we have an individual relationship with God, mediated by the power of the Holy Spirit. That's, know, that we can know God and that we will know God even more fully. That's the great hope that we have. And so, right? Teasi Cannon (53:08) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. And our purpose, you know, I think with the biblical worldview, our purpose is to reflect God, to show the world his love, to show his goodness, his justice, his mercy. And I'm wondering, you know, not to continue to refer to Islam, but how would someone even see their purpose as a human being apart from a relationship, a personal... aspect of your purpose. You know, we're all, that is one thing we all long for is to know we're here for a reason, individually, not just as humanity, but individually. And I don't know. it's just part of what I love to highlight in this, in these conversations is the distinct difference between the biblical worldview, its beauty, opposed to what's on offer. Other worldviews that are on offer may have, like you said, elements that are true and elements that are good and sound great. But when you put them together comprehensively, when you ask the bigger worldview questions, why are we here? What happens when we die? They all become very bleak. According to my own investigation, that is, I've not ever seen another worldview that makes sense of suffering in such a way that gives hope. and where God himself enters in, not to just say work it out on your own, but to become the solution to the problem. ⁓ But it's sad when we find people that don't see that. It's sad, it's hard. Fuz Rana (54:54) Yeah, we. Well, you know, years ago I did a debate on the origin of life question with Michael Ruse, the philosopher who's an atheist. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (55:06) Hmm. Fuz Rana (55:09) During the Q &A, either I ask him or maybe somebody from the audience ask him, what would it take for him to embrace the Christian worldview or why is he not a Christian? Because he actually grew up, I think, as a Quaker, or at least that's part of his background. And he said, it's the problem of evil. He said, but in Christianity, you've got a God who suffers. Teasi Cannon (55:24) Hmm. Fuz Rana (55:39) and who dies on the cross, who suffers for our sake. Because that's a religion that takes the problem of evil seriously. So he wasn't moved by the Christian faith, but he respected what the Christian faith represents. And that's a profound point is that when we suffer, we're never suffering alone, right? That Jesus suffered first for us, and he suffers with us. And to me, one of the most Teasi Cannon (55:47) Mmm. It is, yeah. Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (56:08) remarkable passages of scripture is Romans 8 26 and 27 where it talks about you just pray before God and the Holy Spirit is interpreting your groanings before the throne. Right? That's remarkable that there's that level of intimacy that you don't even have to articulate your need or your pain before God is that that communion with God is that that pain is understood and that there's this the Holy Spirit is ministering to you. Teasi Cannon (56:20) Mm-hmm. Mm. Fuz Rana (56:38) in the midst of that. And there are people who we see suffer as Christians, and it's just horrifying to us. for them, somehow God steps in and gives them the grace to endure that suffering. And we're promised that this is part of what transforms us more and more into the image of Christ, that we can have a deeper, more intimate relationship with God, when it comes to the new creation that we're Teasi Cannon (56:49) Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. you Fuz Rana (57:08) you know, that we're going to be coheirs with Christ. That's remarkable hope that there's a rationale for the suffering, that it's changing us. But also that God can work through that suffering to accomplish things. So the suffering I experienced with my broken relationship with my father is what God used to motivate me into ministry. Teasi Cannon (57:12) Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, that is just, all of that is just such beautiful encouragement. And I find it really powerful, like you said, that an atheist saw within the Christian worldview an answer to the problem of evil. He might not surrender to any other thing, but he was able to intellectually recognize that amongst all the options, other worldviews do not have a solution for it. And it is a problem for all humanity. know Christians see it as a big obstacle at times, this problem of suffering, but everyone has to solve it. Everyone has to figure out something to do with evil and suffering, because we're all experiencing it. And what you just said is such beautiful encouragement. What this atheist recognized is powerful. that the Christian world, what God promises in his word about eternity, that there will be a day when every tear is wiped away, where he will return It is something to cling to. It is real hope. And I think because we're coming up on an hour and I don't want to take more of your time and I would love for you just... Maybe with the last minute or two, if there's any final words of encouragement on why you think, I mean, you've said it a lot, but as a wrap up, why do you truly believe that God's word is true? His promises can be trusted. When you're tempted to doubt, if you ever have moments, what do you lean into? Fuz Rana (59:03) Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, and this may seem a little bit trite, but, you know, I do see very powerful evidence from science for God's existence and not just a God, but the God of the Bible. And I do see the creation accounts in Scripture as being, you know, validated by what we've learned in science. And so that intellectual, plus there's a lot of other apologetic work about the historicity of Jesus and Teasi Cannon (59:30) Mm-hmm. Fuz Rana (59:33) the case that can be made for the resurrection, I do lean on that at times when I do have doubts. But I've also experienced God, and that may be more real in terms of... giving me comfort and hope in the midst of circumstances that don't make a lot of sense is I've experienced God. Part of my conversion, but you know, I've experienced God in incredible ways throughout the course of my life as a Christian. There's a real power in the Holy Spirit that can minister to us, that can change us. And I've seen God answer prayer, right? Maybe not immediately, but I've seen God answer prayers. in our family. at times that ⁓ I see as just truly miraculous. Teasi Cannon (1:00:26) Yeah. Well, Fuzz, this has been so encouraging. I mean, honestly, I know we have been through some dark things in our country recently and just talking to you has really encouraged me. It's exciting to encourage one another. is, we need one another to continually encourage and draw our attention back to these hopeful, real answers to real problems. And so thank you, thank you so much for taking this And I will again I'm gonna put information on how people can find you and follow you and we look forward to your book that most of it might go over our heads, but we're gonna grasp what we can to understand the world in which we live and ⁓ So and also just listeners. Thank you for being here If this conversation has encouraged you I would love for you to share it with friends who would be encouraged and also consider Subscribing so that you don't miss a single moment of true comfort. Thank you all so much. Thank you, Fuzz.