Latest / Pod Therapy / #407: Breaking up with Dorm Room Boyfriend, ADHD ASD OCD Comorbidity

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#407: Breaking up with Dorm Room Boyfriend, ADHD ASD OCD Comorbidity · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Sun takes you have everything else? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: to think about it, he changes the air filters. You
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: know what worst does he do? Yeah? Exactly, yeah, I
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: do whatever is behind. I couldn't get to that day,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: which knocked that out.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Keep out of the way. From faculous Las Vegas, Nevada.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: This is pod Therapy, real people, real problems, and real therapists.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: You can submit your questions anonymously at pod therapy dot
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: or email us at pod therapy guys at gmail dot com.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Wow broadcasting from the Hot Supple nineteen year old studio. Jim.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: That's Jim.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: That's wow.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: He's still too late to cancel this. Okay, how many
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: people who it is?
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Can I do this? Buckle in buddy?
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: No, we got like a month of this the only.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Hot Supple fuck submission. I have your father's idea more
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: in my life.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Oh no, in my mouth, Jesus, that's come all right.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I don't think the consequence. I don't remember saying it.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I don't remember you saying I think it was the idea,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: but then Jim took it and ran with it.
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: I feel like a I generated that's right, that's right.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I've been fucking spoof. Oh Ai drops Ai. Oh no,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: we don't want to open that doors box.
• 1:29
  Speaker 5: Scared Gym away from pot therapy is you start sucking
• 1:31
  Speaker 5: around with a but I will have a panic attack.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Do not do that.
• 1:36
  Speaker 5: Patroon dot com slash therapy, you can hear all about
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: Nick's landscaping adventure where yeah, that was exciting, that was
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: actually quite the tail and I am.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: Your largest Africans.
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: You hear about my esthetic adventure as I peep at
• 1:50
  Speaker 5: my beautiful nails. Jim's looking pretty, so come check that out.
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: Patreon dot com slash therapy.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: Also where you could purchase uh the episode ted or
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: the naming of the studio just before I get in
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: there and shut it down, because I want to emphasize.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: I want to emphasize this as soon as I say
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: what this studio is, I want to emphasize this is
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: not me saying yeah, no, no, this was a writer
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: you paid money to that name the studio.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I've sponsored the studio for the day. Okay, just coming
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: to you from Gym's gaping asshole. This is pod therapy.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: I just I want to emphasize that in case this
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: is anybody's first episode.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we need to sometimes assume that that is
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: the thing.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Actually, sorry everyone, I'm just gonna I'm gonna read you this,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: but coming to you, coming to you, coming to crop,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Jim escaping, caping, gaping, asshole, asshole.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Indeed it was gaping.
• 2:53
  Speaker 5: Patron dot com slash therapy. We have a huge library
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: of deep dives, gill shares, research explanations, all sorts of
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: really cool stuff. There is a new segment that's going
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: to be coming out that's a little bit more news
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: and current events related. That's gonna be dropping the Monday
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: after you hear today's episode, and it's gonna be on
• 3:16
  Speaker 5: A situation is going on the Supreme Court of the
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: United States right now where conversion therapy, which is sort
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: of that you know, pray the gay away fix, you know,
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: gender and sexual identity stuff, is being discussed in Supreme Court,
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: and so it has huge implication.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Believe every possible.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: A good time to go back and rewatch the movie
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: but I'm a Cheerleader, Go back find yourself a movie
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's from the early two thousands. It's called
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: but I'm a Cheerleader, and it is about this, Oh,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: it is about a high school cheerleader being sent to
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: uh pray the gay away camp. Yeah, yeah, so this,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, then they do it in a it's not
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: it's not exactly funny. I mean, there's comedic parts to it,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: but it's also dealing with a serious topic, right, Oh,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: the job of exploring the confusion okay that people feel,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: you know in the you know, you're telling me to
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: change something that I don't know how to change.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't make this decision in the first place, and
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: you're telling me to change my mind and I don't understand.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: What you mean. That's cool, that it's good. Yeah.
• 4:26
  Speaker 5: So the deep dive is is I think, really really timely.
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: We get into the Supreme Court case and explain kind
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: of the odds and ends of it. We get into
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: what is conversion therapy. We go through the history of
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: conversion therapy in America and when the band started erupting,
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: and what the consequences of those bands were, which you
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: you'd think on its face good, but they they had
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: a lot of unintended consequences. And that's what's bringing this
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: back to the Supreme Court. And so if you get
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: into the deep dive, it really is interesting because you'd
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: think that the the obvious answer to this is no,
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: just keep the bands in place. That's a good thing.
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: But the bands have had huge enormous bad consequences on
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: pediatric mental health care and have fiddled with all sorts
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: of things. So getting into the weeds of this, it
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: is really really interesting stuff. It's very nuanced, it's very complex,
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: and it's I think of really timely deep dive. So
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: check it out patreon dot com slash therapy. It will
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: air the following Monday.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: It's so maddening that the idea that the courts and
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: legal people are trying to make.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: More and more laws and rules.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Governing this, right when it seems clear to people who
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: are in and around it, the answer is less rules, right,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: answer is less government dealing with this because it's it's
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: not it's never virtually never a one solution fits all
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: type Scenarioly, yeah.
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  Speaker 5: And that was exactly the backlash because like we actually,
• 5:50
  Speaker 5: healthcare already self regulates, it is inclined to do only
• 5:54
  Speaker 5: what is best practices and evidence based, and it is
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: accountable when it causes harm, and we already have that
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  Speaker 5: system built, right, But when state legislators get in there
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: and ask to you know, stamp little micro regulations, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: on healthcare disciplines, you create all sorts of unintended give
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: me waves.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you also open.
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: Up the door to okay, so if one party can
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: do that, the other party can.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: Now they can create bands like no Woke Therapy, right, and.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Like what's that?
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: Whatever the fuck they decide it is, you know, whenever
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: they write it down, So lots of really nuanced things.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: That being said, banned on the run is still an
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: excellent song. And on the run, oh never mind, Okay,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: you talk to me out of it.
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: We've got some great questions for today's show, and we
• 6:33
  Speaker 5: are leading off the order today with afraid of roommate
• 6:36
  Speaker 5: from college Gal. Hey, Jim, this letter is specifically for
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: you because I am a nineteen year old female.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: God damn it. She is a hot supper nineteen year old.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: There it is Jesus Christ.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Uh.
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  Speaker 5: And it's not creepy at all to hear you talk
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: about teenage.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: She is a hot, supple nineteen year old. How about now?
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: Why she is a hot year old?
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Fuck? Whoever found it I have? It was a you? Yes,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: oh I thought it was a school.
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: No.
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  Speaker 2: Other people brought it to me that I had already
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: pulled it already had They were like, hey, we got
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: the drop.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I was like, I already have.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: I remember the context. I just remember you said it.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: And Jacob and I just looked at each other.
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  Speaker 5: She has a hot supple nineteen year old in pure silence,
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: right because nobody say anything.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Just let it, let it get all the dr more
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: like he just said that, right, ye, God damn it.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what we weren't talking about nineteen year olds. Yeah,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: I think it was a whiskey.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. It was a whine.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Anyway, back to the letter, I have a real problem
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: that hopefully one of the.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Other hosts can offer some dcent advice on.
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: I'm a sophomore in college and I've been with my
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: current boyfriend since my senior year of high school. He's
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  Speaker 5: a year behind me and but we share most of
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: the same friends. He followed me to college, and now
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  Speaker 5: we're living together in the same dorm room, and I
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: feel trapped. I know I made this choice, but things
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: are starting to get awkward and I don't know how
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  Speaker 5: to get away. I know that he's abusive to his mother.
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: I've seen him yell at her and hit her. But
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: he's never been that way to me until now. The
• 8:16
  Speaker 5: other night, as we were moving around, I accidentally tapped
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: him in the balls. He became immediately enraged, screaming about
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: how much it hurt. I apologized and tried to comfort him,
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: and I thought that was the end of it. Later,
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  Speaker 5: as we were getting ready for bed, he rammed his
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: knee up my ass as hard as he could and said,
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: that's what it feels like, bitch. I don't feel safe,
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: and now I don't know what to do. Is I'm
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: pretty sure the deadline for requesting a room switch has passed.
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  Speaker 5: He knows I'm not happy. I've physically moved our beds
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  Speaker 5: apart to opposite sides of the room, and he's started
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: trying to smooth things over in what feels like attempts
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  Speaker 5: to gaslight me into believing things aren't as bad as
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: they are. Remember when I said we share the same friends. Well,
• 9:01
  Speaker 5: he's reached out to all of them already for advice,
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  Speaker 5: saying things like she needs to understand that couples fight
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: and we need to work through this if we're going
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: to get married and have a mortgage in children. That's
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: not what I signed up for at this age.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Just yesterday he.
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: Actually did propose, and I told him no, and that
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: I wanted to go to church to think and pray
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: about everything that's happened. Once again, he got angry and said,
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: we don't believe in that shit. We don't go to church.
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: I feel like I have no one I can turn
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: to since he's already talked to all of our friends,
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: and I don't know what to do to defuse things
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: and get him away from me. I'll take any advice
• 9:42
  Speaker 5: you've got for diffusing the situation and getting out asap.
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: Thanks college gal.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, who wants to take that first? She is a
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: hot supplement? There we go.
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, Wow, the visceral reaction listening to that.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Whitney was touching yourself inappropriate?
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: Are supposed to share that.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: You don't learn. But that was a comment on Whitney.
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  Speaker 1: That shouldn't count.
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: Nine year old.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Actually, that's a comment on It shouldn't count. Is the
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: drop that I want?
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: God damn it, it's better now right.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: No, I can't believe colleges allow I know co ed dorms.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Like, okay, women in college is going on around Okay,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: they can't go to classes, okay, but they let them
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: sleep over.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: I am fine with it. Never mind every track I.
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: Did wonder about that. That seemed very odd that they
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: will let them share a room. I don't know about.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, so let's say.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: That's not that's not that moment.
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: No, okay, that's not really going to a Christian college.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: But there are a lot of colleges that do this now.
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: But it seems like this is such a predictable problem,
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: and I could see the university being we just don't
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: do that. Yeah, the potential for domestic violence or all
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: sorts of weird stuff or allegation like we just don't
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: you know, like you can have guests in your room
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: or whatever. At least then you're making that choice. But
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: I don't know, I agree with you. I feel like
• 11:20
  Speaker 5: it's it's a little bit ill informed.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well let's okay, so let's you know, I don't
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: know anything. So it's all like through the college you
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: both are assigned to the storm room. My first thought was,
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: if you go talk to someone at the uh, you know, housing, Yeah,
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: I was gonna say rubbish, I don't know, like in
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: the main like, yeah, housing department, I would say, going
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: to talk to them and telling them, hey, and if
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: you're work, because sometimes you know, you hear like uh,
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: victims of the domestic violence not want to like make
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: things a bigger deal than they are or like it's
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: it feels like opening a can of worms. Like if
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: I go tell someone, what are the consequences if they
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: don't believe me? And they still confront him and now
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: I'm still stuck in this room with him, like after
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: they've like talked to him. I said, you know, I
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: just imagine what I would be thinking in this situation.
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: I guess when I'm sharing that, I mean, I get
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: that there would probably be worries and concerns. But I
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: think even if you approach it from maybe to start
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: with a hypothetical situation with the housing department saying, hey,
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: I know we're past we're probably past the deadline of
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: changing rooms. But if there were a situation where someone
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: was scared of their roommate they were living with and
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: there was potential for like further harm, what are my options?
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: Because I would I would bet money there is a
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: stipulation regarding all domestic violence, and the.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Way Whitney just said it, I want you to pay
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: attention to the way that she just said it. June,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: don't don't start with, uh, you know, I'm scared, I'm
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: being abused. Don't start with any of that. Really, do
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: start with what would the options be, right, hypothetical if this,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: you know, if something like this were happening, if someone
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: were scared for their safety because of their roommate, what
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: would their options be going through you and the I
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: say that only to say that, like sometimes people's handling
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: of these situations.
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't do them.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. That's it.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Here's the thing too, there's there's no deadline for personal safety.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: No, it doesn't matter what the housing deadline is.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Now I think because here's here's what I would do in.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: A situation like that.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: If I was going to go, I would explain, I
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: don't feel safe. What are you going to do about it?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Because from the university's perspective, if I if I'm
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: saying I don't feel safe and you do nothing, then
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: now whatever happens is on you.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: I take it one step further. I wouldn't say I
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: don't feel safe. I would say I've been attacked. I've
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: been I've been physical. Uh, attacked, uh, and I am
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: not safe.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: I would be one I would take.
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: I would start with square one year suggestion of let's
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: start with a hypothetical, Hey, what are the options, and
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: then if if I wasn't getting good answers to that,
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: then I would probably escalate it to what Nick just said. Okay,
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: so this is not hypothetical. I do not feel safe
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: with my roommate. I don't want to get into the details,
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: but there has been an incident and I need, you know,
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: some kind of relief, and if they still weren't responsive,
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: then I would probably escalate it to what you just said. Okay,
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: I'm going to describe the incident to you. There has
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: been a physical, you know, action that has taken place.
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: But like I would, I would have a progressive strategy
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: with that.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: And hopefully you run into somebody that step one they go,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, let's get you out of there.
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: What do we think about the nuance of a relationship
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: in which this has never happened. We've been together for
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: a while and the context of boyfriend doing this is immature,
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: and but like it's different than other kinds of of
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: putting your hands on somebody, Like it's super immature. It's him, like,
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: you know, doing this reprisal thing, like you hurt me first,
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: I'm hurting you back. None of this is justified, but like, contextually,
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: do we feel that there's some nuance to this relationship
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: or at large the reaction to this incident asking this person,
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: because I mean, she's the person's the writer, College Gal
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: is entirely within her rights to just say I just
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: don't want to be with him anymore. We're done, right,
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: like that was his hot red. There we go as
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: a hot supple nineteen year old. I want her to
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: have what she needs in life.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: One of you fucking talk like you You can't just
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: let me be out there and just say things, because
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: then it's gonna be a fucking drop. So I'm entirely
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: on college Gal's side that if College Gal says I
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: am done with this and I do not need to
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: take this into consideration, I do not need to look
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: at the nuance.
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: I don't need to look at the situation. You overstepped
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: and we're done. I'm fine with that.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: I am too, And I think this is I think
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: this is an example of there are like three or
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: four different things going on in College Gal's head and
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: one of them, And I'm making an assumption here, but
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: one of them.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: As you said, you've been with this guy since high school.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: This might also be college goals, first big breakup that
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: she has had to kind of facilitate in life. This
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: might be the first big relationship breakup that that she's
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: doing in life. So that, on top of all of
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: these other things, it sounds to me a little bit
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: like she's like, I genuinely just don't know what to do.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I haven't had to do this before, and now I'm
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: having to do this under these circumstances, which is making
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: this even worse.
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: God, that's so hard. A breakup's already really hard, that's
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: my point. Now you've got to do this in a
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: dorm room, which is the size of a closet, right,
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: and you've got to sit down with your boyfriend and
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: be like, look, I don't want to be together anymore.
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: I don't want to be with you. I'm looking for
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: options to get out of here. But I don't want
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: to tell you that up front, because you've been violent
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: at me right, Like, I don't know what you're doing.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: All of their friends are intertwined, which I've worked with
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: clients who struggle with that when they split from someone,
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: and the devastation that can be felt when your friend
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: group that you've been close with fore I'd guess at
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: least two years, they're maybe hearing his side of the
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: story first. You're worried of wondering if they're like picking
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: his side over yours, and you won't know that until
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: you split. Like really, not that I want you to
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: go around telling your business to your friends, but I
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: do wonder when you say, like, oh, he's gone to
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: them and told them things already, Like.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Have you talked to them?
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: What's going on? Like if any of my friends came
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: to me and told me that, I'd be like what
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: the fuck? Like fuck him?
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Also, like you, you're asking about the nuance and everything
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: of it. Honestly, I think that's what he's already doing
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: in his head. He's like, well, I didn't hit her.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: I just you know, my knee. I did this thing
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: with my knee.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: But in his mind, I didn't know it was that hard.
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: I just thought I did it.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think it would hurt that much and whatever,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: And like he's he's gonna say all of these stupid
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: excuses that don't mean anything that are just childish and stupid,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: but that's what, you know. So the justification, I think
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: he's already doing the backflips to say like, well, I
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: wasn't violent.
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: She hit me and then and if we asked him,
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: he might say, no, dude, she hit me in the
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: nuts on purpose, it wasn't. So like I'm pushing back
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: on this. I was wounded, you know, but I didn't,
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: you know, unlike and then.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: He's saying that justification, he's saying yeah to the friends,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and he's doing all these types of things.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: And part of what we're.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Trying not to do writer is tell you too that
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: in a few years you're gonna get away from from this,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: and you're gonna get away from these friends, and you're
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: gonna get away from college and the whole scenario, and
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: none of it is gonna matter. Sure, So like the
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: part that is going to matter later on is this
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: relationship and if you're if you're scared in this relationlationship
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: and you want to get out and you feel trapped
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: in it, that's the part that's going to carry over
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: years from now, the part where it's like this person
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: in my English class didn't understand what was going on
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: and was a little rude to me about it. You're
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: just not going to give a shit.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: And honestly, if if your friends don't really understand this,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: then they're not going to be long term friends anyway.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: You're gonna You're gonna find new friends in a couple
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: of years. And this happens all the time, where like
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: your life circumstance change for one reason, you move away
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: or whatever happens, you're always going to be making new friends.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: You're going to be introducing yourself to new people. So
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: don't and I realize that you know, for you in
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: this situation, it doesn't feel that way. It feels like
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: these are this is your support system. These people are
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: obviously very important to you. However, I just want you
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: to understand they're replaceable. Like you're gonna find other friends,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: and you said that you've got you know, you talked
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: about like going to church and talking to people there.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: That's fine.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: If that's your word sports system is go there and
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: you know, and even just if you've got a few
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: people there that you can turn to and just say, hey,
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: this is a situation I'm in in this relationship, I
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: need out and I need somebody to help me. I'm
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: sure they would be more than happy to help you,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: and you'll find new friends if it comes down to that.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: Like I'll tell you your your boyfriend being mad when you
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: said I'm gonna go to church because he says, you know,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: we don't believe in that.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: That's a weird thing to give a shit about.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: And I want you to know that that that I
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: want you to know that's a weird thing to give
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: a shit about. From his point of view, I am
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: my other podcast godless is like the second word and
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: the description of the podcast. Like, you know, if if
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: there is a proselytizing atheist out there, you know, it
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: certainly could be argued that I am one.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: If my wife came to me today and said, Hey,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Go to church, I'm gonna go to church, and i'm
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna hang out at church and i'm gonna
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna see what it's got.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Going on, I'd be confused. Sure, I wonder where it came.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: From, curious because you care about her, but not from a.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't be upset about it. It wouldn't like
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: in a way I would be confused.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: You know, I'd have questions, clearly, but it wouldn't be
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: what are you doing that for?
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: That's that's not who we are, honestly, and also that
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: we believe we don't believe. That's weird.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And come on, college girl, college gal, three and a
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: half out of the four atheists in this room, I'll
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: say that that's weird.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to say when Peter and I
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: first started dating, he was already on the path to like,
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: you know, non believer, but I was still in it.
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: I was like, no, you know, I'm still Christian all
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: this stuff, and he was just like, okay, cool, Like
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: no problem, We're all good.
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: I want to jump in for a second because I
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: want to Okay, so I'm about to say a lot
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: of things that are a lot of assumptions, and so
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: what I'm about to say, college Gal, I want to
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: be very uh sent about because I'm about to get
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: mean about your boyfriend.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Your father's has been in there.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: That is a fact, So just replace there you go.
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: So there's a lot of clues here that I see
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: in a lot of young insecure men. So when you're
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: a young insecure boy and you have a girlfriend in
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: high school and it's going really good, and then she's
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: older than you, and then she gets out.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Of high school.
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: First ice cold fear goes through your veins because it's like, oh,
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: my god, I have a girlfriend. She's in college among
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: the college boys. Now I'm this piece of shit little
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: kid high schooler. So you start to feel really insecure,
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: and then you're really possessive and protective of her. Right,
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: so then she's out there and you're skilled, she's gonna
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: rise up and be yeah, very possessive. Then it's like, oh,
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: there's so much evidence in this story that this guy
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: might be like that, which, again, not a shitty guy.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: He's just a kid, right, but like, this is a
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: very shitty guy. We might be a shitty kid.
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: Like as as an almost forty year old man. If
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: I saw an eighteen year old boy like this, I
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: want to pull him aside and talk to him about insecurity.
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: I want to talk about toxic masculinity, because this is
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: something that a lot of young men can slip into.
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: But I see symptoms of that here, like even cohabitating
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: in the storm room. That seems like a step, and
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: it seems like a step of I need to get
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: her in my orbit.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I need to keep it on her.
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: We're together, and then like here we are having this conflict.
• 23:16
  Speaker 5: I'm going to all of our friends like, well, we're
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: gonna get married someday, we're gonna be together forever, and
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: like we're gonna have children and a mortgage. And she's
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: looking around going whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not where I'm
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: at in this. But he's like extremely possessive and like
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: using that as a control mechanism to be like, babe,
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: you can't walk away from me over this silly little thing.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: We have this huge future together. Yea.
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: Now he's proposing to you and being like, let's just
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: get married. And then you're trying to go to church,
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: like we don't do that. That's not us where this
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: And it's just like there's all this effort to sort
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: of like contain her and limit her options and signal
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: the sense of bigness of like this is real, this
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: is huge.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: We're already.
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: It's like, motherfucker, you were eighteen years old, like coming
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: from the evangelical tradition where I absolutely was inside of
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: this kind of bullshit, and this person doesn't you know,
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: doesn't ether us religious there you go a lot of people,
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: but like at that time, that insecurity as a young
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: person bubbles up and it causes a lot of attempts
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: to control the relationship, especially when there's a lot of
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: factors to be intimidated by, Like you're this brand new
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: college kid. Your girlfriend's older than you, Like there's a
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: natural intimidation. You get to college, you're this young guy
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: over where you look, everybody else looks like a grown
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: ass man, and like you're just you're feeling inferior. And
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: so just like all full mustaches, yeah right, full mustache,
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: full supple mustaches. So like you know, I just want
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: to point that outright, that this is I'm looking at
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: these clues, you know, weaponizing the marriage proposal, boycotting church,
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: keeping you away from friends, telling all the friends you
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: guys are gonna get married and have a mortgage and
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: have kid, and just like even living together. It all
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: seems very controlling, It seems very insecure. It seems like grabby,
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: please don't leave. I need us to be be real,
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: and then putting a lot of pressure on you to
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: sort of like if you walk away from this, all
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: of us are going to disagree with that, Like Oh
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: my god, all of that. They all see us as
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: a couple. I thought were getting married. You've signaled that
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: this is serious. You're weird if you walk away, and
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: just like, look, I don't think he's some fucking evil mastermind.
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: I think he's an eighteen year old fucking kid. Yeah,
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: And I just think he's insecure and emotional and scared
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: and inexperienced. And if I were in his life as
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: a counselor, we would be talking through, Hey, dude, why
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: are you doing what you're doing? Like this is the
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: kind of shit that guys do whenever they're possessive and
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: scared and insecure and trying to fucking like get their
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: woman in a cage because they're scared, just gonna get away.
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: And it's like, I don't want you to do that
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: at eighteen years old. If this chick loses interest in you,
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: and I think she needs to get out there and
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: date her own people, You need to date your own people,
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: if that's what it comes down to. But you guys
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: are acting like it's do or die, yes or no
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: right now right And that kind of insecurity driven relationship
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: is really really dangerous.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Now, Can I just add to that that, Yes, I
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: would agree with one hundred percent with everything Jim said.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: It seems like this boy is broken. Yes, yeah, he's
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: going with it.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: It needs to be worked on, and it's not your
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: job to fix it, not at all.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Is it uncommon for an eighteen year old guy to
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: need to work on some Yes, exactly exactly.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: I just don't want you to take any of this
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: advice and just be like, oh, yeah, I do see
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: these things that he needs to work on. Maybe I
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: can help him. No, maybe I'll no, no, no, no,
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: I think your job. Yeah, there's just a lot of
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: red flags here that I think it's. I think you're
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: I validate the way that you feel about this, because
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: if I was in that position, I'd probably feel the
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: exact same way, and I would not let things like
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: fear of losing friends or fear of being past the
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: deadline to move out in any way inhibit you from
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: exiting this situation.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Oh and just yo, like whatever, I was gonna say,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: real talk, but that's not that's not the right word
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: for it.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Just got a practical talk which Jacob's pulling up a
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Cherry's going to.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Let me flip this hat around, let me wrap with you,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: uh youth practical talk. The college is a bureaucracy whatever,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: well you didn't say.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: What college you go to.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: If it's a big big school or little school or whatever,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: but whatever it is, it's some form of bureaucracy.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And if you take.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Them a solution, you take them a problem and you
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: take them a solution. For instance, if you have a
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: friend that lives in a dorm by themselves, that you
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: don't think you'd mind being roommates with that friend for
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: a little while. If somebody has an apartment or whatever,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: there is no rule at your university that is going
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: to force you to stay.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: In that dormer.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: They're not going to fuck around with They're simply no,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if they whatever they want to do.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: There is no rule that is confining you to that.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Oh icee.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: You can still leave you and just fucking lee. You
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: can just go stay with some friends, go crash. You're nineteen.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: This is the time. Who gives a shit? You're going
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: to crash on somebody's couch. You're you're hanging out in
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: somebody's guest bedroom. You're you're splitting a dorm room with
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: somebody else that you may or may not already know
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: that's okay. It seems scary. It's like a big step.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: You're gonna realize one day that it's not that big
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: of a step.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: It feels really unknown and confusing right now.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: It feels big right now.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: After you do it, you're gonna go like, oh, this,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: this wasn't just moving. Turns out isn't that big of
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: a deal. People move all the time. And you're in
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: a kind of a weird, kind of a transitional spot
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: honestly in life, because you're going from you know, and
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: that's part of the idea with college. You're going from
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: living with your parents presumably to then living in a
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: somewhat less controlled environment. But it's still a somewhat controlled
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: environment in college dorms, and it feels like you have
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: rules that are kind of governing what you have to
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: what you have to do, and telling you that you
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: can't do things. Those aren't really real, those rules don't
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: really exist.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: I think I appreciate you, know what all you shared, Jim.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: I don't think you're wrong either. I'm glad to hear
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: college girls say that she'll take any advice for diffusing
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: and getting out a SAP. That's like my favorite line
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: and this this whole letter because piggybacking off what Jacob
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: was saying, That's kind of where my mind went, Like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: I get that you feel stuck, and that is so
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: real because your whole reality is in that shoebox that
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: you mentioned, like to your college dorm room. But you
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: can get out, whatever that means, and you are strong
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: enough to do that, and I would recommend Actually just
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: watched a true crime show about a college girl who
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: was murdered by her boyfriend who was who was didn't
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: live with her, but it goes through all these calls
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: that like this girl made to college campus police and
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: all these things, and I'm thinking about this here, not
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: to say that your boyfriend's going to do that, but
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: some things I took away from watching that is one
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: that when you do decide to leave that dorm room,
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: you can call your college campus police and they can
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: just escort with you. Yes, like they'll show up, they'll
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: just stand there, yep. And honestly a lot of those calls,
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: they were very willing to do that. And what stuck
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: out to me the most is that the girl who
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: was murdered, she I think felt very confused on how
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: serious to take it, because this was somebody that she
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: cared about, and I don't think any of us want
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: to believe someone we cared about would hurt us worse
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: or do something that extreme. It's like infathomable to us.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: But it's always okay to overworry in situations like these.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: And I don't mean to cause yourself anxiety and over worry.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: But it may feel like, oh, that's too much to
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: do this, or do I really need to go to
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: the campus police to ask in this? Just just do it.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: You know it'll it'll protect you. It makes it takes
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: that onus of diffusing the situation off of you, and
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: that is on them.
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: I think it also gives an important reality check sometimes
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: to the other person to realize, oh, we are I'm not.
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: Nobody's gonna put me in cuffs right now. These guys
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: aren't mad Dog and me. They're being professional. But there's
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: clearly accountability happening all around me. And so I can
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: keep shouting from the rooftops this was no big deal,
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: but the system is helping me understand that this was
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: a big deal.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: And these are new adults.
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: When you're in high school, it's like, oh, yeah, there's
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: almost no consequences for hitting your friend or doing something
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: like that, and it's like, no, you're over eighteen, now
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: that's assault.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: You go to prison. Like all it takes is this
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: kind of thing.
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: So this is an important life lesson for everybody.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: I don't you didn't mention your parents here either, and
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: maybe that's because they're not super involved in your life.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: So if they're not, then just ignore this.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: But oh, there might be on the other side of
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: the country.
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they might be far. But if you are able
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: to kind of loop in one or both of your parents,
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: there's an adult, you older adult you trust who's not
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: you know, a hot, supple nineteen year old right now,
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: then I think this would be a good time to
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: reach out and just ask for imputter advice because sometimes
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: I think we assume, like a older adults don't understand
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: or they're like too far removed from these situations. I
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: don't know you're writing into us, so maybe not. But yeah,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: see if there's someone you can reach out.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: You didn't say this, but maybe you're thinking this.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you're thinking that this is a
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: relationship that you would like to save.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Moving out and taking a little break from.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: It, oh distances.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like even if that's kind of your ultimate goal,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: even if you didn't want to say that out loud
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: to us, which is fine, who cares. Yeah, that's this.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: This is not This does not have to be anything
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: that you don't want it to be. It can just
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: be a I need to move out. I need to
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to establish the way that I want to live as
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: an adult, because that's what you're figuring out right now.
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: I mean, I have a kid almost this person's age,
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: and like, look, if i'm your father, I'm looking at
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: this and going, I think you fucking kids have been
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: at time the hip this whole goddamn time anyway, you know,
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: moving in together right out of high school, going to
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: college together, going to classes together. This young man is
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: like constantly latch to you. And if now he's fucking
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: proposing to you out of panic, if you're my daughter,
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: I'm like, I want you to get the fuck away
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: from him for a while. Oh I'm not telling you
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: to break up with his ass, but you guys need
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: some breathing distance. I want you to learn how to
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: fucking adult for a second, and I want you to
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: go to some classes alone. I want you to have
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: your own friendship circle. I want you to have a
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: little bit of space, go to church if that's what
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: you want to do, create your own little bubble. And
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: if you're a little insecure fucking boyfriend can't handle it,
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: then I think it's time for you guys to take
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: a break.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I realized.
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: You don't fucking get it. Okay, fine, but I don't
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: like anything I'm seeing here. Nothing about the story makes
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: you think, oh, how dreamy, this is such a cute story. No,
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: my generation, especially in the evangelical church, grew up doing
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: this shit and they all ended up terrible. Everybody ends
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: up having a lot of fucking issues. I don't like
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: the setup for this relationship anyway.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Also, movies, media, all these things can make us think that, uh,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: this relationship might feel better after you kind of surmount
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: all of these obstacles that are happening right now.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: That doesn't really happen on the other side of that.
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that feels good, But I don't know. I think
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: that you guys have a lot bigger things going on.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: So much that he chose to like do or change
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: like I am. I'm seeing a therapist I'm actively doing things,
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: like there'd be so much that would have to show
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: over long term to like, I don't know, make this
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: relationship and also growing up.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you bring up a good point.
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: Most campuses have some kind of accessible mental health program
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: for the students. Yes, Sometimes it's hosted by a graduate
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: school where they're training therapy students. Sometimes they have a
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: wellness clinic on campus and every student gets X number
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: of sessions. Sometimes they have a community partners list that
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: helps out the students strong recommend their college. Gal is
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: at least for yourself, making sure that you have somebody
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: who's going to help you conavigate this, because we only
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: get so much information from little letter. I would love
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: for you to have a therapist in your life who's
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: like in the weeds, understands the nuance, and it's also
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: helping you sit down and process what you're feeling about this,
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: and can be very respectful of all of your wishes,
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: even if those change Monday to Tuesday. One day you're like,
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: I gotta get out of a SAP and the next
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: day you like, I love him, I don't want to
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: leave him. The holidays are coming. I want a therapist
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: on the ground to like help you navigate that. So
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: my number one recommendation is, at a minimum, please sit
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: down and talk to a counselor. It sounds like you've
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: got to make all these important fucking life decisions it's
• 35:30
  Speaker 5: got proposed to and ship, I think you should probably
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: be in counseling.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: So, also, as someone who has been both hit in
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: the nuts and need in the asshole, okay, okay, feel
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: the same.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, assuming that they're not the same thing at all.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: They're like, when you got a knee to the asshole
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: the bulls yours?
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah they do.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that hurt not as bad, right, right?
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's not even a curate yeah, in his
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: pronouncements after he like throws a knee to your assholes, right, I.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: Just can't fathom. I cannot fathom.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Oh so it's just a weird reaction. Yeah, just a
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: weird response, and also like the delayed response weird.
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: I'm like, it's very little kiddish, it's immature, and.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: It's one of those things that you do.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Oh I could I can just imagine doing this as
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: like I can't imagine this is an as an eighteen
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: year old, but I can imagine this as a child.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when you like come back to somebody later and
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, that's what it feels like like in
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: your head, that's going to go so differently than it went.
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: Well, that's how you treat a sibling, right, Like your
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: sibling hits and then you're just putting that grudge in
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: the back of your mind and you're waiting for your
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: opportunity playing back you're talking earlier, and they're.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Like, Jesus, save this ship for later. Yeah.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, all that's weird writer, Yeah, good luck with
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: this one.
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: Definitely let us know how this turns out. Get us updates,
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: Go talk to a counselor, and put your safety first.
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: I don't think you're telling us I'm in I'm in
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: like threatening danger. But I think Whitney's also helping you understand.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: You know what, when you start seeing red flags, believe them,
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: and I just go ahead and get some space.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Whoever you have or anybody you talk to that you
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: need to help. All you need to do is say
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: I don't feel safe and I need help.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: That's it. And whether it's the.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: Church or it's the university, university, whoever it is, parents.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: I guarantee when you say that, they will be like, Okay,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: what do you need Yep, they're professionals. They know what's
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: at least we hope, so yeah, we really hope that,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: we really hope that they're professionally. I talk to my
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: nieces and like one of my nieces in college, I
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: talked to her and she's like, oh, yeah, this this
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: happened on campus, and this was the school's reaction to it.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: And that's also just maddening.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: And I kind of wonder too, like if it's just
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: my experience as an administrator in healthcare that when somebody
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: says something, my immediate thought is Okay, I have this
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: information now. Yeah, And I never want to be put
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: in a position where something worse happen and they're like,
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: why didn't you do You had this information?
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you did nothing? Yeah I have so yeah,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: that's exactly what bill.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: Campuses are like businesses, though, where they're like, oh, their
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: first thought might be how do I protect the university?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: No, I think campus.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: I think this is where they're like, their first thought
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: is how do I do as little work to deal
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: with this new issue as I possibly can't.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: They like to stay out of the news. Yeah, yeah,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: it's true, just letting them know. Hey, I don't a
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: little mudg Yeah.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: But anyway, right, if the campus cops won't show up,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: call the real cops.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I called called just do what you need to do.
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: I didn't realize pod therapy was crushing it in the
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: nineteen year old demographic. You know, I think we're sweeping
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: the nation's colleges. We should put together a college tour.
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: I think she is a hot supple nineteen a week.
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: It's gonna be great.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break and when we come
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: back to her about.
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: Autism and toddler aggression. You're listening to pod Therapy.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Today's episode is brought to you by Smitty School, Mason Miller,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Tess Miller, Biler, t Harris, Team, go Oscar swanros Anna, Marie, Amma, Kaine,
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: Amyra and Sam Cone. And if you would like to
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: sponsor the show, become a therap producer Patreon dot com,
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: slash therapy. All right, Trivia this week a little bit different.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: This is Followers Trivia Instagram followers. And I will be honest,
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: I did not come up with this idea myself. I
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: got this from another podcast I listened to Hammish and
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Andy uh and they're very litigious, so okay, I just
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: want to make sure not so yes.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Good credit? Kay? Who has more Instagram followers? Oh god,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I've got no idea.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: And so there's going to be five this round, five
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: next round. You each get to guests on all. Oh okay, okay.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: So keep tracking your own it's a fifty to fifty shot. Yep,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: fifty fifty shot. Keep track of your own score.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: First one is up, wait like we're buzzing in.
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: No, it just everybody gets one. Everybody's a fifty to
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: fifty shot.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, here we go.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: First one is who has more Instagram followers? Debbie Gibson
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: or Gibson Guitars.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Who's Debbie Gibson?
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: I don't know who that is?
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Fucking is she an actress? Little kissinger? Children in her thirties?
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Bro singer? Okay, the mall singers.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: It was a fight between Debbie Gibson and Tiffany Jacob
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: knows what I do?
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: Okay, sing me a song? She sings?
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Do it? No one can do that?
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: All right, I'm going with Gibson Guitars because I don't
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: even know who this old bitch is.
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: I'm going with Debbie because now I feel like that
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: this is a trick question.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: I think it's Debbie Gibson, Debbie Gibson. Yeah, I'll go.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: I'll go Debbie Gibson, Debbie Gibson four hundred and eighty
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: four thousand, Okay, Gibson Guitars two points.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Debbie Gibson. Okay.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Next one Ford Motor Company or Francis Ford Coppola.
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: Oh, Ford Motor Company. I think is going to be
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: paying for a lot of fucking Yeah. I feel like
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: I'm going to go forward.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: I'll say Ford as well.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Uh Ford six point seven million, Francis Ford coppolawenty one thousand.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Yeay, that one, right, didn't seem like he was going
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: to be too active on the here, yeah.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Putting a lot of content out there.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Are your Francis Ford Instagram Google real quick to make
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: sure he was still alive, all right?
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Next one Army Hammer or the US Army.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: Oh jesus, he's got a bunch of Shita people.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: And there was that movie.
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: There's a documentary called the House of Hammer or something. Yeah,
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: so I feel like he would have a lot because
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: of all the.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Kind I know.
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: I'm going to pick Army Hammer.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Way, I'm the US Army.
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: I think I'm going to stick to institutions because so
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: far that's been I'll stick to Army.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, Army Hammer one million, US Army two point eight million. Yeah, institutions.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: I'm doing really good. Zachary Levy, who's that? Uh? Director?
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: No, he was a he's an actor.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: He was the zam was he played?
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: Okay?
• 42:11
  Speaker 5: Or Levi Strauss the brand, the ens again, I'm sticking.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: To the ive.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: Never heard of the first guy? Ye Strauss and Levi
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: is a worldwide like everyone wears Levi brand.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Uh, Zachary Levy one point four million? Okay, the next
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: sixty two point seven thousand.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: No social media for the fucking social man.
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: She's whenever I go overseas, the everyone wears Levi like
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: Levi cap shirts. They wear it all the time. That's
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: maybe they don't need the social media.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I guess not. John Stamos or Johnson and Johnson.
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: Oh no, John Stamos.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want John sta Yeah, God damn that man.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson were both very hot.
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, John.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: The gram.
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: I feel like he has done a.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Penis. Are you going for John Stamos Jacob, I don't know.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: I was just watching you last night.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: And you're watching me. Yeah, that's weird. That's what I
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: heard was the toes.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Obviously, this was the first thing. I was like, Jamies,
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: my little phone, flash light in your room.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Where'd you go with Jacob?
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: I went, John Stamos, all right, word three for Stamos,
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: John Stamos four point three million. Yeah, Johnson and Johnson
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: one hundred and six.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Thousand, fuck you Johnson and Johnson. Job.
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: So I only missed one on that I missed two.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I guess four points.
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: I like it in the lead ADHD, autism and Toddler aggression. Hey, Nick,
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: Jim Whitney, and doctor Smith. I have a couple of
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: semi related questions that I wanted to throw your way.
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: These are kind of long, so feel free to separate
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: them if it makes more sense. I'm an adult that
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: was recently diagnosed with ADHD. It's one of those things
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: I always felt like I probably had, but never cared
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: to seek out a proper diagnosis. Going through the process
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: of learning about ADHD and even trying out some medication.
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: I was also diagnosed with a few other disorders, including depression,
• 44:18
  Speaker 5: probably major depressive I don't even know social anxiety and OCD.
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: I was originally afraid these diagnoses would make me feel
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: labeled or stuck in a box, but it has actually
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: been extremely validating, especially since I've felt like I've had
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: OCD all my life but was afraid to bring it up.
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: I've even started some medicine that has had some serious
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: positive effects. I recently joined an ADHD support group that
• 44:42
  Speaker 5: my therapist started and recommended to me. At our last session,
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: we talked a bit about comorbidity and how other disorders
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: are commonly found in those with ADHD, specifically anxiety and OCD.
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: In the past, I've also heard ADHD referred to as
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: similar or adjacent to autism. This is one reason I
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: never sought out any diagnoses, because how am I supposed
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: to trust that we got the quote right one? I
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: was under the impression I was likely on the autism spectrum.
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: But could it just be ADHD and OCD?
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Could it be all three?
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: I was hoping you guys could give some details around
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: this comorbidity stuff. How this comorbidity stuff works, specifically around autism.
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure if you've ever gone into a deep
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: dive into autism, at least recently, so I wanted to
• 45:29
  Speaker 5: give you guys a chance to hear My other question
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: revolves around my three almost four year old son. He
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: has always had a weird obsession with the bad guy
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: of a show or movie he's interested in. When we play,
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: he usually wants to be Rhino or Bowser when I'm
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: Spider Man or Mario, and he always ends up winning.
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: At first, I don't think much of this, but recently
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: it started to get more aggressive. It's not uncommon now
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: for him to just straight up punch me or his
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: mom in the face, sometimes multiple times. He'll kick and
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: scratch and show no remorse. Sometimes it doesn't even seem
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: like he's upset about anything. He just wants to hit us.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: It was driven.
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: It's driven us all to tears. It has also gotten
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: worse since his mom and I separated, which I've suspected
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: maybe causing some tough emotions for him. I try to
• 46:19
  Speaker 5: talk to him about it, and sometimes he'll apologize and
• 46:22
  Speaker 5: tell me that he was angry or frustrated and now
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: feels embarrassed. But sometimes he does not care and just
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: tells me that he likes it. I've learned recently with
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: my recent ADHD diagnosis, that emotional dysregulation is a symptom
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: of ADHD, and I'm fairly certain his mom and I
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: both have it. Is it too early to look at
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: this aggression from that perspective? It's this normal for a
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: three or four year old boy. I don't want to
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: pathologize any normal childhood behaviors, but I also don't want
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: him to think it's okay to hit anybody. I'm terrified
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: he's going to hurt a kid he's playing with, even
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: though this has never been an issue so far. He's
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: usually very sweet with other kids. Do you guys have
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: any tips on how to handle this aggression or how
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: to stop it? Any healthy ways for a toddler to
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: work out his negative emotions. Talking to them doesn't seem
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: to help yet. Also, any thoughts on taking him to
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: some sort of behavioral specialist, Any specific methods or credentials
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: that I should look for. Do you think his mom
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: and I splitting up maybe causing him more turmoil than
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: he will admit? Thanks for making it through my rant
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: of a letter, and thanks for the advice. Also, Jim,
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: I loved the ADHD deep dive. I found it extremely
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: informative and would love more maybe one on ASD or
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: OCD sincerely, ray J Shark.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Of course he's only thirty minutes into it, that's sure.
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a tough well, two tough ones. So
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: I guess do you just want to start with the
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: first question?
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: So yeah, as I'm kind of looking at this macro,
• 47:47
  Speaker 5: I'm hearing a couple different questions. I'm hearing ray jsay,
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: what is the situation with comorbidity between ADHD, autism, and
• 47:54
  Speaker 5: OCD kind of getting into the weeds of how often
• 47:57
  Speaker 5: do these things overlap? And you know, do we see
• 48:00
  Speaker 5: this a lot? Because ray J is saying, look, I'm
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: definitely ADHD and I also have OCD, and then when
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: you pair those things together sometimes that looks like autism.
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: And so like you blend you know, these yellow and
• 48:11
  Speaker 5: red and you kind of get green and it's like,
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: oh shit, did I get that right? Or is it
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: yellow blue that makes orange yellow?
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: And red is orange? Yeah? Whatever? Fuck you?
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: So colors.
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: I don't know how the shit works, but yeah, so,
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: like I can see that being the first question. I
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: think the second question is, Hey, my kid's going through this,
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: We're going through separation, I'm seeing this like violent stuff feedback.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: On that, you know, is it? Is it adjacent? What
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: do we think about that?
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess the the blend. I always wonder this,
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: how how clients perceive like the neurodivergent spectrum of like
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: autism ADHD, because I do feel like socially we have
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: put them all together in a bubble, you know, like autism,
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: but to me, they're like, I don't know a good comparison,
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: and they're very different but in the same family or whatever, like,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: so I don't know. It sounds like you're trying to
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: sort out what what are the differences? How do I
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: know what's what?
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: And and fairness to everyone? The differences would be.
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: What like if I didn't know, right, talk.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: To me like I didn't know and don't have a PHDH.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: I don't have a pH right just for pretenzies, right.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: Which he might not in January.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: I win this thing, I mean anybody could really win
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: this thing, you know, So we don't know.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Well because like I mean, autism is.
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: Uh, like what's your perspective?
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Just I mean autism is a physical like it's a
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: genetic thing whatever whatever the word would be. And ADHD
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: is not as far as we know, So as far
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: as I know, as far as.
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: I'll jump in a little bit in this because like, okay,
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: so first off is where the line is, Well it is,
• 49:57
  Speaker 5: it's a very blurry one. And so eighty HD and
• 50:00
  Speaker 5: autism are in a different kind of group when we
• 50:04
  Speaker 5: think about mental illness in general, because a lot of
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: these other things like anxiety and depression stuff like that,
• 50:10
  Speaker 5: they're like kind of temporary, right, and they blow through
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: your reality and then they may go away. With these
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: we consider them neurological, Okay, so we think of them
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: more as like the hardware of the brain probably producing
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: these symptoms, both of them, both of them.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're actually in the same chapter.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: And they're really diagnosed through like behavioral things.
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we tend to observe it in behavior And there's
• 50:33
  Speaker 5: some studies that kind of look at MRI data and
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: say that they can kind of start to squint at
• 50:37
  Speaker 5: it and see a difference, but really we're looking at behaviors.
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: And what's really interesting is that like fifty to seventy
• 50:43
  Speaker 5: percent of people that are diagnosed with ADHD would also
• 50:46
  Speaker 5: meet criteria for autism spectrum disorder.
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I thought.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Autism spectrum disorder required.
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: A.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, so I'm sure I'm
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: going I'm going to say it wrong. Uh, but I
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: thought I thought it was a what do you mean,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: like like a chromosomal that's that's down syndrome. Down syndrome
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: is chromosome. Yeah, not chromosoonal, that's that's not it. What's
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: the word I'm thinking of?
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: A genetic?
• 51:12
  Speaker 5: I guess probably genetic, but it is in a sense,
• 51:14
  Speaker 5: so they're they're both developments.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: I thought it was something that could be uh, physically
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: detected through like an MRI or something like that, if
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: if you kind of were looking for something.
• 51:26
  Speaker 5: So we're still at there. There's a lot of research
• 51:28
  Speaker 5: going in that direction. Okay, so you're you're you're looking
• 51:31
  Speaker 5: in the right direction. We don't have it yet, gotcha. Okay,
• 51:33
  Speaker 5: But where we're at is, as Whitney said, we still
• 51:35
  Speaker 5: diagnose both ADHD and ASD through behavioral stuff. So what
• 51:40
  Speaker 5: are we seeing in the behavior and the thinking styles
• 51:42
  Speaker 5: of this person? And usually it's reactionary, it's it's aversions
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: to certain things. It's social skills, it's social blindness in
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: some situations, it's fixation in some situations with ADHD, it's
• 51:54
  Speaker 5: that running on a motor inability to focus and concentrate.
• 51:57
  Speaker 5: But both of them share a lot of hairment of
• 52:01
  Speaker 5: executive function, and so that's ability to sort of like focus,
• 52:05
  Speaker 5: good judgment, you know wise veneration there and an emotional
• 52:09
  Speaker 5: regulation is also a big part of both of them.
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: So we're talking like fifty to seventy percent in a
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: lot of cases that we would say they're comorbid that
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: we're we if we see one, we kind of expect
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: to see the other. But it's also kind of difficult because,
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: as we talk about in the deep Dive on ADHD,
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: fifty percent of all childhood diagnoses of ADHD will eventually
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: continue to develop to the point where later in their
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: lives we will no longer see that this behavior matches
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: criteria for ADHD. So you would be justified in saying
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: fifty percent of individuals diagnosed with ADHD as a child
• 52:42
  Speaker 5: quote unquote grow out of it because their brain's not
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: done developing, right. And so, and this is true of
• 52:47
  Speaker 5: people with ASD as well, is that in their youth
• 52:50
  Speaker 5: they may be diagnosed with ASD and they may never
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: quote unquote grow out of it. But their brain continues
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: to develop, their function continues to broaden their adaptations. Sure,
• 52:59
  Speaker 5: and so that's why we also call it asd autism
• 53:02
  Speaker 5: spectrum disorder, right, because we used to have buckets for it,
• 53:06
  Speaker 5: and so we had like aspergers, you know, like high
• 53:08
  Speaker 5: functioning autism and stuff like that. So we finally came
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: up with like the sliding scale to say, look, if
• 53:13
  Speaker 5: you're in this criteria box, we're comfortable describing your neuro
• 53:18
  Speaker 5: divergence as what we call autism. But like, there's all
• 53:22
  Speaker 5: sorts of levels of severity. There's very you know, far
• 53:25
  Speaker 5: end stuff where a person may not be able to
• 53:28
  Speaker 5: self manage and they'll never live independently. And then there's
• 53:31
  Speaker 5: further on the lighter side where you know that they
• 53:34
  Speaker 5: perhaps have what you might call, in the general social public,
• 53:37
  Speaker 5: some quirks, right, but they're fine, They're doing life, and
• 53:40
  Speaker 5: some of that's actually an advantage for them because some
• 53:42
  Speaker 5: of their unique neurodivergent ways allow them to hyperfixate and
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: do some things that are really interesting for them that
• 53:48
  Speaker 5: other people perhaps don't have that staying power for that
• 53:51
  Speaker 5: analysis ability. So writer, I guess coming like full circle
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: on this, Yes, there is a very big link between
• 53:59
  Speaker 5: these two realities. It is also really common to see
• 54:01
  Speaker 5: OCD show up alongside either ASD or ADHD or both.
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: It's also really common to see anxiety. So like, all
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: of these components show up a lot, and so it's
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: not weird that you're sensing these comorbidities. The solution to
• 54:17
  Speaker 5: this ultimately becomes And this is something I think you
• 54:20
  Speaker 5: were kind of talking about in your letter, Raj, where like, yeah,
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: the diagnosis is useful only in so much as it
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: points you towards solutions. And this is something I kind
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: of get on a soapbox about in the Deep Dive,
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: is that when I recorded the Deep Dive, there was
• 54:33
  Speaker 5: it was a very popular thing to identify who you
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: are based on ADHD or ASD or quote unquote neurodivergence.
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: And I felt like we were deviating from the purpose
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: of diagnostics and like, we don't have to diseasify everything.
• 54:48
  Speaker 5: ADHD and ASD can just be a normal variation in
• 54:52
  Speaker 5: Homo sapiens in the way that brains are designed. That
• 54:55
  Speaker 5: doesn't have to be a disease. But knowing it, calling
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: it a name should really be for the purpose of saying, Okay, now,
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: what what do I do about this?
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 55:03
  Speaker 5: What kinds of changes does society need to make around me?
• 55:06
  Speaker 5: What kind of changes do I need to make to
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: better match society? The goal is function, and that's really
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: all we want to see improved. Same thing with OCD
• 55:14
  Speaker 5: and anxiety. You're still going to have anxiety, You're still
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: going to note have obsessive, intrusive thoughts. What we want
• 55:19
  Speaker 5: with OCD is to discontinue the compulsive reactions, the behaviors.
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: We want to detach the thought from the thing you
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: do about the thought. And so all of this kind
• 55:28
  Speaker 5: of full circling is really about personal management. But I mean,
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: I'm curious from what you know other folks have seen
• 55:35
  Speaker 5: in the room, Like the data says we see a
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: lot of comorbidity. The data says that it's not uncommon
• 55:40
  Speaker 5: if somebody says I have A a lot of times you
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: will see that they have maybe a B or a C.
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: Do we notice that in the clinic? Do we notice
• 55:47
  Speaker 5: that on the field?
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, yeah, it's kind of funny. I actually
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: love this question because it does really kind of force
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: us to dig into that and try and sort through it.
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: And I think you're right Jim. This is something that
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: modern research is trying to kind of still actively swort
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: through and see. And I think of multiple people in
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: my life who might overlap where like a friend of mine,
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: I've talked to them about this personally, but you know,
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: I'll be like, I'm pretty sure you're high functioning on
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: the spectrum because she went through like her daughter getting
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: diagnosed and that It's like, hmm, I was like, did
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: you look at any of these She's like, oh, I
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: thought about it. I was like, okay. And then also
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: a lot of OCD tendency sorry in there, and we'll
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: talk about that. Then we also talk about how trauma
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: comes into play with some of those symptoms. So it's
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: a lot and I definitely go to thinking about my
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: brother growing up born in the nineties. He definitely had
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: ADHD diagnosis, but this was back when a lot of
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: his behaviors being like two years old, three years old,
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: getting kicked out of preschools because he wasn't able to
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: socially like do well in those environments. He also had
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: to take like the short bus I'm saying in quotes,
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: that's what it would like, go to special types of
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: education because they did not know what to do with
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: him in regular schooling. And then on top of that,
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: what I realized as we got older was he is
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: a toe walker. Oh oh yeah, And like that's one
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: kind of the bigger symptoms at least early on to
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: kind of point out, like autism spectrum disorder. And so
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: I did talk to my parents about this not that
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: long ago. I was like, what do you think about that? Like,
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: is there any chance because you know, they were adults
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: when he was a child, and like, looking back at
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: some of these symptoms, do you think he could have
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: He had some you know, uh, what's the word, uh,
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: sensitivities to uh, like materials and stuff, sensory stuff there.
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: And I'm thinking, if you were forced to wear like
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: the socks you hated every day, you'd probably react to
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: everyone around you too, and like be an asshold of
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: them at like ten years old or whatever. But even
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: in his thirties, he still is a toewalker. It's so interesting.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: So I say all that to say, like, thinking about
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: just my personal life, thinking about clients I've worked with,
• 58:10
  Speaker 4: seeing some of these overlaps, it does make the area
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: very blurry. You're like, well, well, what's the I think
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: the ADHD was just showing its face the most, and
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: maybe there could have been some deeper going on that
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: if you know, looking back, he could have been helped
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: a different way, Right, maybe things would have gone a
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: little easier for.
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: Like the elementary middle I agree, but everything to me
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: comes down to the purpose of a diagnosis neems to
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: be to improve the functioning of the individual. Yeah, and
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: unfortunately when you and I were growing up, this is.
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: Not resources put like put him into therapy neuro stuff.
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: But they just didn't know, well.
• 58:46
  Speaker 5: They know, And there was actually a lot of interesting
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: politics about how diagnostics changed with the DSM three and so,
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: like it opened up the criteria really simplified for ADHD,
• 58:55
  Speaker 5: and it was handed off to like nurses and practice
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: like pediatrics, and so a lot of that's what never
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: all the ADHD diagnoses were pouring out because that was
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: how you just described every kid that can't sit still.
• 59:05
  Speaker 5: And then it was you know, we obviously saw the
• 59:07
  Speaker 5: advent of like a lot of stimulants and stuff like
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: that and likestriction, and sure there's a.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: Lot of like in the environments too.
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: Environments became more stimulating, right, you know, like growing up
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: as a as a kid, and you're watching cartoons bright colors, flashing.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Lights used to mister Rogers.
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like Teletubbies and what Yeah, and then you
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: have to go.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Sit in over Gabba Gabba. Yeah, I have bad news
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: for you. If you think the nineties were more colorful
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: than the seventies.
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well television, I think. Yeah.
• 59:41
  Speaker 5: So, speaking about the kids situation, a couple of pieces
• 59:44
  Speaker 5: of feedback on this. So your son is three or
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: four years old, he identifies more with the bad guy.
• 59:48
  Speaker 5: He is kind of experienced experimenting with like this violence,
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: and there's sort of like you know, a lack of
• 59:54
  Speaker 5: remorse about it, but then he can sort of be
• 59:55
  Speaker 5: talked to about it. He's not hurting other kids, so
• 59:57
  Speaker 5: we're not seeing like broad anti social behavior. He's too
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 5: young for like some hard diagnoses based on.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Any of this.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 5: I don't want to, you know, pathologize this kid. In
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 5: my experience, I have like tons of nephews, I've raised
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 5: a son, I've seen a lot of young kids. I've
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: taught in school, I taught kindergarten, so like I've definitely
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: seen this kind of behavior before. There's two pieces of
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 5: this one. I don't want to pathologize it. I'm not concerned,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 5: but it must stop. And so on that side, it
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 5: becomes a firm and a consistent parenting strategy where when
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 5: we're goofing off with our kid, we are starting to
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 5: say hard nose to certain behavior and we're not letting
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 5: him punch three times soft and then he finally throws
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 5: a hard right hook at your chin, and now you're like,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 5: that was too hard. You can't trust a three or
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 5: four year old to moderate a certain kind of behavior.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 5: It becomes binary. They don't know, like, oh, you're allowed
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: to poke me with this butter knife a little bit,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 5: but then the last time you poke too hard. Like
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 5: adults can do that moderating behavior of like oh I
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 5: can punch you in the shoulder because we're buddies, But
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 5: then there's a difference between how much pressure I show
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 5: and like that. That lack of moderation communicates a different message.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 5: Children don't do that. Like he's three or four. It's
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: fucking binary. So it's just we either hit or we
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: don't hit. And so if you're allowing your kid to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 5: like play fight with you and he's allowed to hit,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: but then he takes it too far, this is where
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: I think that you and your your co parent need
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 5: to say, okay, we need to adjust our parenting. You know,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 5: with this kid, if we're going to play fight, it's
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 5: you know, we make sound effects with the swords. They
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: don't actually clink. You know, we don't actually hit each other.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 5: We make sound effects. We pretend, you know, we do
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: not actually cross that line. And because he can't moderate
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 5: that behavior when he does it and he goes too far,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 5: he's not going. I mean, you're going to be genuinely
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 5: hurt and be startled by your kid and you think,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: oh my god, am I raising a fucking psychopath? And
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: it's like, no, he's three or four, Like they're little cavemen.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 5: You know at that age they are psychopath.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: Or four year old that.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, Also the bad guys and this is real. The
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: bad guys on these shows are the interesting. I want
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: to come back to change, Like the hero never changes.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Mario doesn't change. He's trying to get coins for some reason.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Rules Bowser is doing ship. Yes, that part, I'm not
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not very concerned. I don't care about that. I
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: think it's interesting, it's very interesting. But I also think.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: That too, that that's very appealing to kids that have
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: a feeling of a lack of power in their environment
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: because they see the power that the bad guy has. Sure,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: I like this take, and so like, you know, to
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: be able to see like Darth Vader and just like,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: oh my god, he's got power.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: Everyone's afraid of him. I feel very vulnerable. I feel
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: like I have no power over anything. Wouldn't it be
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: nice for people to be a.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Little worried about me? Or I should get a cape?
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I need a helmet.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: We should always my cape.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean I think that's part of it too,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: to be able to see to see a character and
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: see a trait that they have and be able to
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: admire that trait.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 5: Now I like the idea too that they're ominous.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: They matter.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: I mean, as far as like your separation affecting the kid,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: I think it does. But I think it's also really
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: difficult to get a three to four to five year.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Old to verbalize.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: They're not very aware of their cognitions at that age.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 5: They're not very aware of their emotions, and so when
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 5: you ask them things like are you sad that mommy
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 5: and daddy don't live together? They're in the backseat of
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 5: your car you're driving home from McDonald's and they're like, no,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: I'm fine, you know, because they're just like eating a
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: fucking nugget, like they don't care.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: They're watching blue you know.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: So like it's hard to really get a gauge on
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: this stuff. I wouldn't really bring your attention so much
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: to like cognitively and deeper emotional stuff of like how's
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: my kid feeling right now, I'd really keep your focus
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: on what we call behaviorism, which is just what are
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 5: we doing in our interactions with others, what is a
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: good behavior, what is a bad behavior, and just observing
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: the child for maladaptation. That's usually what we see with kiddos.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 5: So whenever their environment changes and it disrupts them emotionally,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: they're not often able to verbalize it, and a lot
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 5: of times therapy with them talk therapy isn't necessarily.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: That useful at that age.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 5: A lot of specialists, because you asked about specialist referrals.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: They like to use play therapy.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and play therapy is a really interesting modality because
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 5: it is the form of communication that children use. And
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: even the fact that that he likes to play is
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 5: the bad guy and likes to use some violence in
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: his play. A play therapist is going to take all
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 5: that information and know what to do with it, and
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 5: know how to interpret what this signals about the kid
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 5: and how to signal back to that, and how to
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 5: like work with that to reveal things and to like
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 5: slowly start to nuance their behavior. So I don't necessarily
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: want you to run your kid off to a therapist
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: right away. I don't want to overreact. I feel like
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 5: what I'm hearing about seems pretty typical. I think it
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: just requires a cohesive parenting response when possible. If he
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 5: was doing this at school to other kids, yeah, and
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: I was seeing the spill out of the just the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: playtime with parents. Now I'm starting to get nervous. If
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: I'm seeing the kid be reckless, breaking property around the house,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: doing other kinds of like acting out things, now I'm going, Okay,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: this is getting to a place where he doesn't know
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 5: how to verbalize what he's feeling.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: But they're big feelings.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 5: And that's where i'd probably want to play therapist to
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 5: get tagged in.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I say this to all the parents I talk to,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: working with teens especially, but toddlers and teenagers are like
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: the same.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, pretty much and thirty nine year old men.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 5: I feel like we're not that far off.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: But what I told him is, especially when I hear
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: the kid is sweet to other kids at school, there
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: are really behavior problems outside of the home. I try
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: to remind parents that that means their home is their
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: safe space, and it doesn't mean their behavior is okay.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: I one hundred percent agree with what you were saying, Jim,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: like there needs to be behavioral modification in the home.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: But I do think just when you are worried, abut oh,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: is my kid, you know, a psychopath or something deeply disturbing,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: It's like it sounds like that's maybe his outlet is
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: playtime with you, and he thinks he can like get
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: out a good angry hit. I think about my niece
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: when she was really young, probably around this age. It
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: was so interesting because she really could not verbalize her
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: emotions very well, but you could see she was emotional,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: like through facial expressions or you know, maybe like staring
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: intently when something was going on and not really reacting,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: and then she'd just like walk away from the situation
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: and like shove her brother on the way out or
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: like okay, yeah, just like a little like poke or
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: like a you know, yeah, like I need to get
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: this out somehow, and I don't know how. And she's
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: not a psychopath. She's an amazing kid at like eleven now.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: But at the time you're like, oh, is this okay,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: and you're just like, oh no, she's just struggling to
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: like express herself. So as a parent, absolutely stopping the
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: really aggressive behavior, I would just one of my favorite
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: terms that I've watched, you know, my family members use
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: with their kids is I'm not going to let you
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: hit me. So it's not you're a bad kid for
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: hitting me, like don't hit it's I'm not going to
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: I'm your parent, I'm going to help you right now.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to allow you to hit me.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And then also creating that norm where we don't hit,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 5: we don't like a three or four year old brain
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 5: isn't getting into the nuances of when it's cool when
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 5: it's not cool.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: So I'm not pretending when I'm the bad.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 5: Guy getting the kid maybe into karate or something. Thoughts
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: on this outlet where it's like, hey, you I get it.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 5: You got all that little boy energy Yeah, you want
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: to fucking like tear into something. You want to do
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 5: the cool time to do it. You like the shredder
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 5: and the you know teens and turtls, like you want
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 5: to do that cool shit. Like great, get in there
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 5: and go break the little boards and do your high
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 5: yahs and go punch the thingy and like get out
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 5: that little boy aggression.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: The last, the last little story is going to share
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: was just Peter and a couple of years ago. We're
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: talking with his family and they were like only allowed
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: to watch Star Wars growing up pretty much. And he
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: was talking with his brothers, I think, and they were
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: talking about how they always wanted to be you know,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: Luke Skywalker or whatever, and Peter was over there like
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: I always wanted to be like the bad guy, and
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: they're like really, like we were so shocked by that
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: stuck out to me. I was like, oh, that's.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: Kind of right.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 5: The entire day is nothing wrong. Was essentially a terrorist faction.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: And he turned out Okay for the busy.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: No, he's in the car, it walks in the garage.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Don't worry, I left it right.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: No, but he is he's like emotionally really he's a sweetheart, Like,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: I don't know, I think, yeah, I kind of was
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: interested in what Nick was sharing, you know, about the
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: power and control you have as a kid and how
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: you really see yourself in characters that you watched.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: It also says a lot too.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, it could be a sign of emotional maturity
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: to be able to look at a character like Darth
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: Vader and be under be able to understand that that
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: person has emotion.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: As well, right, has a story, yeah.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: You know, and like that was always really interesting to
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: me watching Star Wars as a kid is like really
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: kind of understanding that character and being like, okay, so
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: this was Luke's dad, this was once a good guy,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: this was you know, and there's you know, there's a
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: lot of same story behind that, you know, and and
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: to be able to see that in a character that
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: otherwise would just be like, Okay, this is the bad guy.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: That's all you need to know about him.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: He's back, he did bad things, and I just frustrated.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 5: It's kind of like what Jacob said, it's the most
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 5: interesting character in the story. That's why the fucking prequels exist.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 5: Is like, oh, what is the backstory of Darth Vader?
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 5: How did that guy become Darth Vader, Like, it's way
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 5: fucking more interesting.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 5: The White Knight good guy is such a limited range.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 5: Actors want to be the bad guy. It's more interesting.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 5: So I think your son just has a flair for
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 5: the dramatic. It's a more interesting character. You're allowed to
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 5: sort of do more with that, you know. But I
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 5: don't want to pathologize your kid. I think he's just
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 5: being a kid. I have, you know, like I said,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 5: a bunch of nephews. I just spent the weekend with one,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: and he's two, and it's just so funny because as
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 5: soon as we give this kid, like I gave him
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: a lightsaber, and it is yeah, yeah, exactly, I forged
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: a lightsaber. And and when I give this kid a lightsaber,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 5: he's like, oh cool. He immediately turns around and hits
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 5: his one year old brother right in the fucking.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: Fast and I'm looking at his mom in horror.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 5: I'm like, I am so sorry.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: To be fair, that kid was asking, you know, he's
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: just immediately a terrorist.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: He starts running through the house just shaking everybody.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: Just do you see why he's looking at me?
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: And I'm just like tackling this kid like to get
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: the sword out of his head and he's.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: Like, I'm a fucking Jedi. Jesu's Christ. So yeah, they're
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: all like this, dude. It's just that is just little boys.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: They are cavemen.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: But anyway, this this is a great question writer, and
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm really glad that you were able to experience,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 5: you know, your own healthcare journey, going through your own
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 5: you know, work doing this work on OCD, you doing
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: this work in anxiety, finding a medication that's working for you,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 5: and you know a lot of things coming into context,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 5: which is great. And keep an eye on your son,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 5: you know, because like if you have these heritable traits,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 5: it's very possible that your son may be neurodivergent a
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 5: little bit or resonate with some of these things. And
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: you know, you want to get good at guiding yourself
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: through this and learning about what tools and maneuvers work
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 5: well for you so that you can also assist him.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 5: And the goal is, again, we're not going to cure
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 5: these things. It may not even be something it needs
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 5: to be cured, you know, when you get away from
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 5: looking at these as illnesses that as a former writer
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 5: wrote in about being somebody who has ASD and feeling
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 5: like the current you know, federal administration is pathologizing this
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 5: and making it sound bad. We don't want it to
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: be that way. We just want to be a trait
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 5: and something that we could work with. So learning how
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 5: to adapt that for yourself so that you can be
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 5: a good coach to your son, I think is a
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 5: great idea anyway. But we're gonna take a quick break
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 5: and when we come back, wrapping up the show. You
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 5: are listening to pod therapy.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: Today's episode has brought to you by Mason Miller, Tests Miller, Bilerts,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: Harris Monico, Oscar Swans, Emma Cain, Myra, and Sam Cone.
• 1:12:06
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• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: patron dot com slash therapy.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 5: So I've got four points in these assholes.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: Jacob's got three. I think I have three? H two
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: feels right, Okay, here we go. These are worth eighty
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: points each.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: Think so Dunkin Donuts, oh or Duncan Robinson the small
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: forward for the Detroit Pistons.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 4: Duncan Donuts, thousand donuts, give me Duncan Donuts. They had
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: the whole Super million commercial.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: On Duncan got them.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: Sure that Duncan has a good pr Oh, yeah, they're
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: very Duncan two point eight million, Duncan Robinson two hundred
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: and seventy thousand.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: You Duncan Robinson.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 4: I'm surprised there's such a discrepancy between these options.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: Very broad, Naomi Campbell. Oh, speaking of Broad or Campbell's soup,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: this is gonna be tough, this one.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 5: I may get away from the institution, but I feel
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 5: like when it comes to likes and followers, these institutions
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 5: pay good fucking money to get like as much that
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 5: shit in there as they can, So I don't know
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 5: how authentic it is. Your number is big. I'm going
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 5: to stick to soup.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: Give me soup, Jacob, did you pick one soup?
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: Give me soup or give me death. I'll go Campbell.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: I'll go Diama like bo okay, Naomi Campbell fifteen point
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: seven million, fuck.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: Soup six thousand, five thousand. Damn, ma'am will be good?
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: Are you hot, lady?
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: The writer John Green or the Green Bay Packers.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 5: Oh geez, I'm going to go John Green.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: I'll go Green Bay Packers.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: I'm going Packers, John Green two point three million for me,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: John Green, Bay Packers two point nine million.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: I believe, I just shit, that was eighty points.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: So Tracy Morgan or Morgan Stanley, Oh boy, boy, who's
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: following Morgan Stanley on Instagram?
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: Givey? Yeah, I'm going Tracy Morgan's.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 4: Oh, I was thinking like Stanley Cups. I was like,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 4: but Tracy.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: Tracy Morgan nine hundred and ninety or nine hundred and
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: thirty nine thousand, Morgan Stanley three hundred and fifty nine thousand.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: Yay, okay. Last one, David Cameron, Prime Minister.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: Oh oh, David Cameron.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I call him Dave David Cameron or Harley Davidson.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 5: Oh boy, oh he's a world leader. Or Harley Davidson. Yeah,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 5: I'm going with David Cameron. There's no way Harley Davidson
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 5: is just like old dudes like that. Nobody's fucking following
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 5: them on it? And what the demographic that rides Harley's
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 5: doesn't use Instagram, So it's it's no.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: It's David Wow. It's good logic. That is good logic.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: It maths.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna just stack onto gym's logic and
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: say that if I picked the same answer, the gym picked,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: then I win the game.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: So Cameron, God damn.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 4: It, what I was gonna pick David Cameron to But
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: just to go against the grain, I'm gonna say Harley
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 4: Davidson for because I'm losing anyways.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: Harley Davidson five point seven million, whoa wow, David Cameron
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: one and.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: Fifty gosh, I did it?
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: You know, for the.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: Definitely gets the moral victory. The actual vide you were.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: Off by about five point seven.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: Honestly, that's how the game should be played, is that
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: you don't get a point for getting it right. You
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: get the discrepancy. So if you get it right, you
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: get all the discrepancy between.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 4: All those followers.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Four million, four point seven almost like wow, that is surprised.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 5: Well, as we wrap up the show, we want to
• 1:16:08
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• 1:18:18
  Speaker 5: Thanks to those of you who contributed to our show today,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 5: we really appreciate it. Remember, pot therapy isn't something you
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 5: should keep all of yourself. Shure the episode with the
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 5: world tag us on the socials when you do. It's
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 5: at pot Therapy Guys on Instagram, threads and Twitter, slash
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 5: pot therapy on Facebook and blue Sky and don't forget
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 5: but all the is you could.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: He's at patreon dot com slash and therapy.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: And if you want us some of the questions to show,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: you can ask anonymously at pot therapy is.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: And that's emails a pot Therapy Guys at gmail dot com.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: We'll click the link in the episode of description to
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: be taken to our anonymous bogles form.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 4: I'm an Anatgeman, I'm Whitney, I'm Jim.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: Thanks, so we'll see you for your appointment next week.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 5: Feel you know, so targeted. I don't feel safe talking
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 5: about hot, supple teenagers anymore.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 4: Oh okay, I feel so bad for you, Jim.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: You know this violation of my free speech. Your father's
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: dick has been in me. Damn it. Goodbye, everybody,