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What I've Learnt - Autumn Series Gems (May - June) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Kate Soprano's 30th album, My Life as a Symphony, released this month, is a breathtaking celebration of her songwriting featuring her most iconic songs, Brave and Pash, and personal favourites from across her four-decade recording career.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Reimagined with Kate at a new peak of command amid the grandeur of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: Unfolding on orchestral stages nationally, the epic musical setting is an apt reflection of an assured rise to the pinnacles of rock, pop, soul, and jazz.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Her new album is a perfect title, capturing her passion and her essence as the quintessential queen of Australian music.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Louis, your life is just speaker.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Embrace of one another, we we rated people by what they did rather than how they looked or what they yeah, it was mostly like action spoke more than words in that time.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, there was no digital communications.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the beautiful analogue phones would give you time and give you privacy as well.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember travelling overseas just a cut a few years later, but at the at a time when phones, you know, you you'd get an operator to say, Will you accept this call?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine if we actually had a phone these days?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Will you accept this call?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: And what I think of us, you know, working that late in the you know in the clubs at 4 a.m., there was no like text like, No, Mom, I'm on my way home.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, there was a great deal of trust, wasn't there?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And there was.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you and I, again, back in that place.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: When I say now it's sort of dark, well, it is dark because the 70s, early 80s, when grain store and inflation and the whole variety of kings.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Underground, yeah.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Underground, it it was it was also on the back end of disco, which was actually a very loving cultural experience.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it wasn't very violent, it didn't feel like it was very violent or very kind of uh embargoed to only those who were wearing a hair a certain way or something.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, disco was for everyone.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: We love today, yeah, and we do it was welcome, you know.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was inclusive, and and that's an important point because, in a sense, when you describe growing up and the inclusivity and the diversity and the sense that she'll be right, mate.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: We're all we're all part of the same journey.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: You're right, that there's a purity and an innocence, isn't there?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and my father, um, getting just quickly back to what it was like, I was raised by the very best of a superstar you'd ever wish to.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like his fame was because of what he did to his community around him rather than based on his himself.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it was the actions he performed to recover people's self-respect and self-discipline that improved.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we were in, you know, we were in times where there were gang wars and there were all sorts of things going on.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: There were skinheads and and there were um bikers and all sorts of people who'd show up at the house.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: But this was how the world responded back then to someone like my father, a peacemaker ultimately, and the kind of bridge between factions in the community.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: He could bring them out into the back dojo and in this very elegant space, divide a line in the sand between being a civilized human and a cannibal.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: He was just like, and and many people today come up to me and say, I have your father to thank that I was headed to jail and instead I live an honorable life.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you're like very, very precious.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and also, so he was like a mediator of sorts, somebody who always tried to teach diplomacy, but clearly he he was a martial arts expert, as you mentioned.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: So there was also the capacity to defend oneself.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: If if well, that's where the the twist into Superstardom became complete when he was put on television for the then Roy Hampton show.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember that?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yucht, wow, that's a long time ago.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Barely.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think we were like seven or something.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually my first ever television appearance was when I accidentally walked in front of the the studio cameras um watching my dad teaching self-defense for women on the Roy Hampton show.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I had this very strong, I guess the first impact for me of what it was like to be um in a family that was more than simply just a family on your street.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was a family in your television, you know.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And my dad was part of a um a new culture of of physical awareness and and a sense of sort of like like yoga and that there was, do you remember Swami Sap Swarasvati?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, she was on every morning doing her yoga.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my dad.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: So my dad shared that space with her, and they were the first, you know, the real first um physical, they were exercising self-discipline and sort of like um motivation for for mothers who were at home and at that stage hadn't yet come back out into the working field.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this was a very, very a very in in an interesting time.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, and I and I quoted as well that my mum, who was also the first female, Australian female in champion chip at championship level in martial arts as well.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So she was breaking all of the rules in doing that.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so and is that how they met?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, it that's another story, but and it's a big story.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: They met so young and and they were so invigorated by this experience that they were doing.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: My dad sort of it was like a bushfire, it went into the stratosphere, and and we as children we we often had 30 to 80 students in the backyard every weekend that would travel from near and far.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So and my and my mum would support and love uh love that culture as well.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I, just speaking of how I got into music, I didn't do karate, I didn't want to do karate.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I understood the concept of it, I understood the hierarchy and how it was beautiful and everything.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: But the sound of my mother doing it, I it made me feel like she was in danger.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't actually like watching her do kata or training.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and I went into the more um feminine sports of like, you know, ballet and flamenco and tat dancing.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank God you did.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because it probably took you down that path.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a really interesting backdrop to we so where you came from and also the the strong sense of acceptance and inclusivity and using whatever tools you could carve.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: And for you, those tools in your toolbox were, as you said, dance.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: You went on that that pathway, and then it led to music.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I know both your parents have been hugely pivotal and supportive of your journey, but you can't do karate, is that right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: So we should just put that on the side.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, mate, I just take a heavy object in a handbag if I want some self-defense.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that's what you call a husband.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, sorry.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hilarious.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, actually, uh, I I my brothers um and I, just as another musical interest, my brothers are and still continues to do martial arts, but my brother Phil's, of course, is a musician as well.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: We were trained um to not no, we weren't trained, terrible word.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: We were released as as sort of like free-range chickens.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: We were we were all encouraged to to get into the arts and and try to find our voice in whichever medium that we would end up in.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that was the that was the divining rule.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, is what you're doing forwarding your purpose as a human?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if it is, then you have our 100% support.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: Now, in that sense, they were both through progressive because that wasn't, especially at that time, and that allowed you the platform that you've created and built over all these years.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: But but really they as you that's a beautiful image, somewhat like, but I'm thinking more of birds, but but you know, like going for letting you go free and go on your path.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, in terms of for you, what was your earliest career highlight memory?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Very early on, before we get to all of many, I'm sure you have, but and also the bravery, which I think is interesting because you were, you know, you were pretty courageous in terms of you had your own style, you weren't you you weren't sort of your typical pop princess.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: You you were, you know, hard.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you definitely drew on the blues and soul and jazz and all of that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Was that that required a bit of courage at that time, back in the day?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I actually saw a meme yesterday with uh a young baby just a year and a half playing piano on his mother's lap.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and the um comment above was is like, is that a a a baby this age is so closer to who they've been and can remember, like if you have a concept of her circular life, this child was playing with this maturity, which was it was kind of it it freaked you out a bit because you're just wondering, you know, he's playing full chords and their harmony.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think I saw that actually.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that yeah, that's it's amazing.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and I do think that there are sort of, I don't know, there there are cracks in the matrix that sometimes like this is this is going towards a story that I had about myself, and to myself it was very real.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like at the time I probably knew you, and just before, I felt like a 40-year-old black woman, like singing, and I get it.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I actually get what you're saying, yeah.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was going, and I don't know why, but I was compelled to go through every vintage store and op shop, which back then they were unbelievable because Gravel Street.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, they've all been, you know, everything's been taken and worn and and and everything I bought I recycled and I wore to threadbare.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like nothing was wasted.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I would buy the most beautiful sharks, shark skin suits from the 60s, you know, and and I'd cut them up and make beautiful cocktail dresses.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and I had and the fabrics that they used from that time, the Gro Grain and the Shantungs and the Yeah, and the and the velvet and the embroidery.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would dress like a vintage jazz singer, and uh, and and then I would go out and put myself to work, either Burke Street Mall busking, or I I went to a club I remember at the age of about 16 and just turned 16, actually, and I met up with another chap who seemingly like me was in another era.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: He he was in a full vintage suit, and his name's Stephen Hope.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: He played this very unusual, very traditional way of 1930s music, 1920s, where you stride the bottom bass line.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Songs like pay I dance, you know, and say it's only a paper boom, can't boots, dun, dun, dun, boom, oh yes, that bouncing.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so we became a band, Hoagie Cats, and we were like these people that hadn't yet left who they were to become who they are, and that's when I met you.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think I I I have great recollection because I think we had really similar vintage taste in terms of, you know, we love those op shops.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think what's interesting is you're like an old soul, which is what you're referring to, and you have always been an old soul, even at 18.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I resonate that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I always saw that in you, and I I think that's where a lot of your power in your music comes out because you feel you feel like you're listening to somebody from another era, but it's true, and it I feel like I'm holding the line for a range of singers who have a certain frequency, like Dusty Springfield, yeah, Dion Warwick, Scylla Black, Roberta Flack.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, these were the women of my, they were the ones, oh, Aretha Franklin and Edda James.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: I felt that they were schooling me in what it was actually to be a woman through voice.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not to not to be a singer, but to be, as I said, an actor who can sing, you know, like a storyteller and someone who could embody the experiences that that a person who's listening to the music might have had, and then offer them a method of sort of release and catharsis, you know.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: That was my even at even at that age, I knew I had a service to do in that sense.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: So um and they resonated with you for a reason because obviously the universality of a lot of their messaging and their songs and the power.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: They were telling a different story.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think, for instance, um, you could you could put that into a sort of like a for particularly for women, and and back then there were no policies to protect violence in the homes.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually legitimate for a husband to have have full rights to hurt his wife, because she was his wife, and that you know, there was nothing protecting women from home violence.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very powerful lyrics and respect, respect, exactly.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and even Edda James at last, and and from the stories that they were performing Billy Holiday, they were saying, My life is not easy, but from this song, I'm gonna show you how you will survive your life.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: And absolutely and Billy Holiday.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've heard you do some beautiful Billy Holiday.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: I've heard you really and and you do you think you are an old soul?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Did you always and also you need to really, you know, you've got a raw, sensitive core that just, you know, in some ways that can be hard because it means you that you reverberate every nuance, but then it's also what fuels you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's tough.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I reckon an actor would have a terrible time in it when they're constantly playing a role where they're they're having to find that place, that performance place, which has a lot of tragedy in it, and day in, day out, find that place.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, you know, when you take on board a song, you sort of inhabit the skin of the singer or the composer.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Billy Strayhorn, for instance, like since we're in the jazz hood, he he was a very troubled young man.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And back then, homosexuality and the taboos of being a black man, and even even within their own community, that wasn't even a thing.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was like you just couldn't talk about it.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: You just and so his music was laced with this sort of sadness and oh my god, well they and and justifiably so, because the world was so restrictive and so um marginalized as it is today.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: But back then it was it was with with you know, it was it was done with police brutality and it was done with whole communities not allowing it being to be great.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like Ella Fitzgerald, right up until very late in her life, would explain that she would be the headlining artist at a concert with Frank Sinatra, yet she couldn't use public toilets, she couldn't use the um any of the facilities backstage, she'd have to be in the car and wait before she could come stage.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, she she certainly uh left her legacy, and it's you know, it's it's lasted longer than any of those, probably except for Frank Sinatra.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what you're saying is you imbue a lot of that, and you and to do that though, Kate, you have to be quite finely tuned, you have to be very astute.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: You can't, you know, that's not there's lots of people that do covers, there's lots of people that do, but you are you have an originality in the way that you perform these songs.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, this is the life story of Silva McLeod, the first Tongan woman to become an airline pilot.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: She's still one of only a handful.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Told by Silva with frankness and wit, it's quite a story.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Silva takes us on a journey of cultural change from her beginnings as a poor island girl to her marriage to an Australian.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: The challenges of pursuing a flying career and its impact on her family are set against the backdrop of the love story of her life with her husband and his battle with cancer.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: You don't become a pilot unless you're pretty smart.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because maybe a lot of smart.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, some people might think, Oh, what is she doing?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: I literally bared my soul on my memoir.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: So you did, and it and you know what?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's actually what's so authentic and beautiful about it, is that you did do that and you were unflinching in your storytelling.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd like you to sort of start at the very beginning, um, really how you grew up, because I think our listeners will be very inspired about how everything is possible if you really want it to be.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Deb.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a little village of Pangai Motu in the Bava'u group in Tonga.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Tonga is divided into three main groups.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: The northern part is Babao, the middle is Haapai, and the southern part is Nukalofa, where the international flights come to.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I was uh reared and raised, uh educated and all that up in the northern part.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: The village I grew up in, it's a tiny little village.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was about 200 population.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: You walk one way, you hit the water, the other is hit the water.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: So a life of an island girl in the 50s, 60s, when I was growing up, that's literally bound in this tiny little uh piece of land surrounded by the vast ocean.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there is not much future or beyond that.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to school there, uh, went right through to year 12, and uh so growing up in the island, everything is menor.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: There was no running water, there is no electricity, there's no a lot of people, you know, tell their story, and I'm not alone in that part.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just telling it how it was.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want sympathy.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm it was just yeah, you're grateful because obviously, and I, you know, from what I've read, I mean, obviously, there's an idyllic aspect to the nature part of it and living sort of framed by the ocean and a sense of simplicity and purity.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I suppose what you're saying is the reality is that fundamentals like utilities and and infrastructure were challenging, which impacted the way that you grew up.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: So while you could get the benefit of nature being surrounded by nature and obviously a very close family, it had logistical issues, which had, I mean, it's interesting to me that you um say that you did year 12.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Where was the school and how how did that, you know?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't understand.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was lucky enough to gain a scholarship.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I was a border with the nuns.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the little village island that I was in, it was connected by a causeway to the main island of Babatu group.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you either walk because there's no transport, or for those who are lucky enough like myself, I went and boarded in that little main town uh with the nuns in a Catholic school.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the boarding is not like luxurious like what you and I know now.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we go on a Monday morning and we come home on Friday night, spend the weekend with the um family, and then return.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So every Monday morning you front up, and the the head nun will take us in, and you have to present yourself with a bag of food, a basket of food, a basket of firewood, and a basket of brown coconut.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to bring those three items.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: You have to bring that every Monday.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you keep your own, you have to do your own.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we did our own cooking.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a funny story to that, because when we peel our food and stuff, we actually have to etch our initial to our piece of taro or a piece of yam before we put it in the pot.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So when we actually cooked it, you front up with your plate and you take the one with your initial.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not coming um to boarding school with say tapioca and you want to eat yam.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, so you have to eat so it really is, and it's interesting too because so was it hard, first of all, what age were you when you first went to school all the way to year 12?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: And how hard was it to get that scholarship?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: At first, my grandparents, because I was reared by my grandparents, so I went to the year six, and my grandparents pay that school fee.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: But once you generate and have good marks, they will see potential, and then you'll go on scholarship.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the scholarship is like just free uh school fee.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: The rest, I still my parents still have you bring the baskets now.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me, you were raised by your grandparents.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: So tell me about that and why how that came to be.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that common or is that something that it is quite common, but uh for every you know, broken families and all that, it's always the grandparents who pick up the pieces.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So myself and my sister was reared by my grandparents, and I often speak about this with um such warmth and and so much love because my grandparents already had nine children, so with the Two of us made 11.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine 11 plus the grandparents?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's 13.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Baker's dozen.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say, I'll tell you what, you go through a lot of eggs because I there was no eggs.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's interesting.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there was no eggs.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: So, so how do how did Dave manage that?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so you grew up with a very big family.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Just to clarify briefly, your parents clearly were not in the picture.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: Can you just give us a little snapshot on that?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Just to contextualize how this came to be.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mum had other kids, and dad had other kids, and we finish up at my grandparents.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: So great snapshot version of that.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing you.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it was I am the oldest of 17.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So mom had six more, dad had nine more.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I have 17 brothers and sisters.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, and I know all of them, all of their kids.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Extraordinary by my grandparents.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: So well, I tell you what, I yes, and I I'm I'm quite stunned at the I mean, it is really extraordinary.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: 17 children, even if I I understand the context, and then your grandmother taking you on board.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a fundamental, I suppose, cultural mission that if there is a child will always be taken in and looked after in the context of it, didn't matter how many there were, your parent, your grandparents stepped up.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: So is that in entrenched in how the community runs?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, it's so true when they say um it takes a whole village to race a girl.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I often speak about this because I stole this from a former airline boss of mine, and he spoke of his experience of Tonga.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he said he will always remember Tonga for the three F's F for family, food, and funeral.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Culturally, to him, uh, so big in family, we all love our food.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: We are big people, we celebrate everything, we look for something to celebrate so we can eat more food.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then funeral.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we celebrate death and we respect our death like no other culture I've seen.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when there is uh a funeral pass by, everyone stop.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Get off the road and pay your respect as a procession pass.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh culturally in Tonga, uh, yes, family and of course reared by my grandparents.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it there was no question asked.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, straight away, if that relationship doesn't work, that's where you're going to finish up.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Not even a question to say where could we go?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I often speak about my grandparents, we didn't have much.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: We did not have much.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have my very first pair of shoes until I was about 16 years old.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I I met uh some people from Australia, they came on a cruise ship and they saw my feet, and they offered to buy me a pair of shoes after I was a tour guide.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was at high school, they pick a few girls.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: When the cruise ship comes, we take them uh uh the tourists out for scenery uh drive.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this was one of the people in my group offered to buy me a pair of shoes, so it was a pretty pivotal time, it was a very pivotal and and more than just the shoes.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you can tell us about that too, because that changed your life, really, didn't it?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, and um, so for my grandparents, uh, for very little they have, but I often referred to what I was lacking in material thing, it was top up with a lot of love.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of love.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: And that's evident by your I can hear that you have very sort of warm and fond memories of them, and that's clear in the book, and also of your upbringing, that that it was full of love and family and food.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, of course.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget the food.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: No, well, we're Jewish, so I'm like food is also a thing.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: We all love food.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about so that that uh person that gave you the pair of shoes, which was quite life-changing.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us what happened next because it's a great story.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, when they gave me the the pair of shoes, they wanted me to uh pee a pen pal to their daughter, and they asked me what I wanted to do, and I said I wanted to be a doctor.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh they said, Oh, our daughter wanted to be a nurse.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like to be a nurse?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, Oh, well, you know, close doctor, nurse.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I have to start somewhere.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And these people were generous enough to offer to educate me, fund me to come to Australia.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I started uh communicating with this daughter of them, as well as the parents, and one thing led to another, we sort of lost contact.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: But you came to Australia, you were in Australia at this point.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: How were you?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Were you you worked, I'm assuming, to because you you obviously had landed in Australia, but you had some support from them.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: But once you lost contact, you were sort of on your own.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: How old were you?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I lost contact when I was still in Tonga.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, in okay, right.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I was still at school when we sort of lost contact.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: In Tonga, if there's a cyclone come, it wipes out the house, goes the contact and everything that was in the house.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so you just when you were how old?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, probably 66.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember and uh so anyway.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when we came here to Australia, we tried to find them.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I still remember the name, I remember the town they lived in.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to believe it, but I actually located the girl, the daughter, but it was too late for mom and dad.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's such a shame.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they were with you in Australia at that time.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: They were up in Queensland.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So uh the the lady Helen was still alive, but uh she suffered dementia and she was already in a care.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the husband already passed on, so I liaised with the daughter.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Susie was the one that I uh was pen pal with.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when Helen passed away, I felt this strong urge that I needed to close that chapter.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I needed to show my respect because I was trying.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: My husband put a uh notice in the paper in Queensland of trying to locate them, but apparently they did move town, and that's probably why it was hard.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: So uh believe it or not, I found a daughter, Susie, on Facebook.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was never on Facebook before.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, um, I flew up to Queensland for the funeral, and I felt This is later, yeah, much later, obviously.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: So just going back to when you first come to us, came to Australia, so there was a cyclone, you lost a lot of possessions, and and it was quite traumatic.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: You came to Australia aged how old, 17, 18?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I grew up, I work in Tonga until I met Ken.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so let's talk about Ken.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: This is very important.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, for our listeners, you better tell the story of Ken because it's very important.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, after high school, of course, there was no university, there's no job, there's no future.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the outside world was sort of not existing to us.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: We had no um access to television or newspaper or anything like that.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: The radio was only on every now and again when my grandparents can afford battery to put in.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I went for a job because when I finished high school, I was so worried that I might be married off or you know, be pressured to get married because um in the Tongan world, pregnancy outside wedlock is round upon big time.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the only way that they will probably push us through is to get married, find a husband, have a family, and the life cycle of being an island that continues.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But Ken landed in Tonga as part of the Australian aid team.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: They came to build a hospital for my island, and he was the electrician.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So at the time I was working as a bartender at the only hotel in the whole island.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: So strike up the conversation.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So like a movie, isn't it?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: It really is like Mills and Boons, isn't it?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Strike up the conversation, you just have to buy the book and read the finer details.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: The book is just like riveting, it's just an extraordinary.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it does feel like a film, the way you anyway.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: So Ken, so you're working in the hotel, Ken arrives as the electrician to be to work on the building the hospital.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a hospital and a field depot.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So Ken was there for nearly two years.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: We literally, you know, uh hit off straight away.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we were courting and all that, and eventually, one week moment of mine, because I always have this fantasy about aeroplanes.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when I met Ken, and I never told a soul about that fantasy to fly.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I confide in Ken one afternoon, Sunday afternoon, and he said, Well, there's no time frame.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, you should be able to get that.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, we got married in Tonga in my traditional talk about culture and family.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this is a funny story.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Ken and I got married, and he said to me, it took him three times to propose before I actually say yes, because I didn't really think a foreigner could really cope with our culture.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the first time I thought it was a joke.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: The second time I thought, oh, he wasn't on his knees.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I think you better think long and hard, because to marry me, it's probably like marry the mafia.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: You have to marry mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, and auntie and uncle.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's not just me, I come with a whole crew.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you think you can cope with that, then maybe.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he came back the third time.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: He was on his knees, but no ring, which is okay.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: No ring is okay.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Did you say?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Did you say that?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was okay without a ring because there was no rings in Tonga, there was no jewelry shop, nothing.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, and I didn't mind that at all.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: He told me that all his friends have nice rings.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: When we come back to Australia, we will have, you know, to go shopping, blah, blah, blah.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we knew, or I knew, that we were going to get married in a traditional way, because once a couple get married in Tonga, it's off your hand, the family and the village took over.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: So Ken said to me, Please don't make me wear a mat.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, Okay, because I know I wouldn't be able to say no.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So came the day they split us into each corner of the this little hut for the mat wrapping ceremony, because there's layers and layers and layers of mat.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I was busy with about three women on my side, there's three women on his corner, and next minute I can hear him.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: He used to call me Leva, and he was yelling out, Leva, Leva, and I look over.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And these women were trying to split his legs to open his legs, and he's saying, What are they doing?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was taking the Mickey out of him, and I said, Well, if you still want to get married, you better split him.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so he ended up in the mat anyway, and the matting and the culture, but but obviously with good humor, and clearly, I'm assuming it was a beautiful day, and it was and he embraced the cultural.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: He loved it.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: I thought afterwards he, you know, he used to tell people years and years later, because we have a big photo of us in the lounge room, and he used to tell people, I got married in a skirt.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he probably did, with no shoes.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: I love it, it's wonderful.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: I I just he sounds such a lovely man, and then from there you move to Australia.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: I was alone in the middle of a forest hanging from a zipline 50 metres above the ground.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: This was not within my comfort zone.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a suburban mum whose idea of adventure is to get a double shot of coffee in my mocker.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: Still, I was with my two daughters on holidays in Tasmania, and we had decided to try ziplining for fun.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: The journey up the mountain had been exhilarating, but when I reached the top, the ride jolted to a halt and I was left dangling alone in mid-air.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the opening of Carrie Sackville's incredible book, The Secret Life of You, which I have been reading over the weekend because it really engaged me.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's really a fascinating insight into what it means to be alone, not lonely.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I thought what you've opened up is a very interesting discussion about, you know, if you think about, and I was reflecting reading your book, because when we were children, like I remember when I was young, and I'm sure you're the same, and we are a similar vintage, we really just there were no phones, there were, there wasn't that level of distraction.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: You'd sit in your room as you you refer to in the book, and you just ruminate and you'd just be, and you'd just, you know, play your guitar for me, that was something, or, or read your books, or it was never really even a thought about needing to be in this hyperconnectivity in the way that our we all are now, and uh our kids and also ourselves.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's a huge problem.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I did reflect a lot about that and realize that what's happened these days is that we are losing our casual moments of solitude.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, what I talk about in the book and what I went through myself was not suggesting that any of us go off and spend like a week in a silent retreat.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like a lot of people do that.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to do that, that's great.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: The most I did was take myself off to a house on the on the coast for three days, and I still was in touch with my kids and still, you know, went to the coffee shop and ordered coffee.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: But what's happened is that in the past, we all had moments of solitude during the day.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was a normal part of life.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I had my own room from the age of probably five or six.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if I was in my room, I mean, our phone, our landline didn't stretch to my bedroom.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: None of us had phones exactly.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if we were in our rooms, we might have had a clock radio.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that was literally it.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: That was the extent of our connectivity.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: We just didn't have televisions, of course.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Computers hadn't been invented yet.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: There was no internet.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so if I was alone in my room, I was either reading, I was either writing in my journal, or I was just daydreaming.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: If I was standing in a queue, if I was walking to school, if I was sitting on a bus, you know, if I was eating my breakfast, I remember I'd read the back of the cornflakes pack.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: We all did.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: We all used to do that.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: We all did that, yeah.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, what you said earlier about how kids are very good at being alone.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: We were all very good at being alone.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, right now, kids are actually losing that capacity to be alone because we are giving them devices from the time they can they can hold an iPad, basically.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm certainly not like I'm not dissing parents.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm a mother of three, I know you do what you need to do, but it's the age that we live in.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so what happens is for all of us and for children, because we have devices, every moment of quiet, every moment of idleness, every moment of solitude becomes a problem that we solve by picking up our phones, right?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't ever have to be alone with our thoughts anymore.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so we very rarely are.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then what that what that means is that it starts this cycle that we lose the capacity to be alone with our thoughts.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: When we try to be alone with our thoughts, we don't know how to do it.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: We panic, we get anxious, we get lonely, and we turn back to our devices.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this constant cycle that has been created by a few different things that I talk about in the book.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: One of them is social media, another is, you know, the culture that we live in, and there's a whole lot in that.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: But things have changed.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we humans are not supposed to always be alone, but we are certainly not supposed to be never alone either.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really bad for our brains, it's bad for our mental health, it's bad for our relationships, it's bad for all number of reasons.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um I totally agree with you.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you really, you know, things that you raised, which I've often thought about, for example, what I think it also makes us is hyper-vigilant, hyper-busy, hyper, that there's this sort of hyper-stimulation.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, I did have this discussion with my daughter, who is you know in her 20s, and really she has made a real point of corralling some of the space.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: And she goes up into her room and she's a musician and she's an actor, and she's very into it, and she said, I can't create unless I have that space.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I said to her, I actually understand because how can you create?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: You and I are writers, so I can't write and I can't research unless I have that space.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: But carving that space is really challenging, and not, you know, not like even if you're researching on your phone and suddenly something comes up and it's distracts you, and you go on another, and we you talk about that as well in your book.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I was really had a very interesting discussion about that with her.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we we need to show much more respect for the need for space, and that's what your book talks about.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and creativity is a really interesting one because you know, your daughter you said is is in her 20s.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've got um my two older kids are in their 20s, and one of my um two is an artist, and she spends a lot of time creating, and she's able to put down her phone and do that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I've noticed a huge difference between the way that my big kids use their phones and the way my 15-year-old does.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they had some time without smartphones, they weren't raised on smartphones.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now, smartphones, you know, are incredibly addictive, they're designed to be addictive, they use gambling technologies to like keep us hooked.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think my big girl was able to find her creativity because she had a space from that.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, she found that very early on.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: I worry that the younger kids aren't even getting that opportunity to have that space because they're never disconnected and they don't, and much more than the the kids in their 20s, they are constantly connected and never get a chance to to just sit with their thoughts and sit with doing nothing.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, boredom is so important because it's important that we find our creativity, you know.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: You underbut you and she said that exactly what my daughter said.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: She and and I agree with you, it's it's like we've lost that capacity to be bored or to be even restless, like it's okay.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you and I are writers, so we have that kind of creativity, but everybody is creative in some way.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not even just talking about making art.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you need that time to be creative, to have original thought.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you if you don't have the time to reflect and to think and to get in touch with your own thoughts and your own opinions, all you are doing your whole life is consuming the thoughts of other people.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: So every time we pick up our phones, what are we doing?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're reading content or we're looking at videos made by other people.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we need time to have a break from that just to get in touch with who we are and what we think about things.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like, you know, it's getting harder and harder to find the space to ask ourselves who we are, what we want, what we like, what we think.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're we're getting bombarded with influences.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't just mean the social media influences, I mean influence from everywhere, influence from our friends in the group chats that we, you know, are connected to 24-7.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Influences the media because we're consuming media content.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: And as much as I love podcasts and I'm on a podcast now and I listen to podcasts, you know, when you're it's someone's ear consuming.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when there's someone in your ear all the time, you're never listening to your own voice.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do we have original thought without space?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think you also talk about another really important issue, which I I found which resonated, which the badge of honor of busyness.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and and I think this is something that is really of the last five to ten years, this badge of honor of busyness that has become toxic.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that basically the, you know, and you talk about that, the more frantic, the more busy.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm flat out, I'm frantic, I'm oh my God, you know, and we all suffer from it.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, I know I do it, uh, you know, because I've sort of lay it.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: But that part of that is, you know, the it's almost like running from the silence.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and it's and yet you need it because it's actually your fuel, right?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and we all do it.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I talk about that too with my kids, but also very interestingly is my husband, who, you know, he owns a law firm and he's very, I need, I just, I've got to, you know, he'll just sit quietly.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: But he has a capacity to just go, I don't need anyone, I don't need to be on Instagram, I need to just be quiet.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that is that's such a and it's a skill.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just a skill, you know, yeah, you know something.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's really inquired.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sort of like always buzzing around out, meeting for and for job.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: And but I think it's very hard for women.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, because I interviewed a lot of people for um the book, and you know, I interviewed a male politician who said that that he finds it really important to, you know, go away and think after it sitting in parliament for exactly like he just needed the quiet and he just needed to avoid group thinking to get overloaded.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then I interviewed, um, I interviewed Sally Openmeeder, who's a media personality, and she was talking about how you know she has such a busy life, and she actually carved out time for herself to take, I think it was a two-day break away from the kids.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a really big deal.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: And she posted about it on Instagram, and all these women were messaging her saying, I'd love to do that, but please don't, please don't post my message.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I could do that, don't tell anybody.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was like we women have really brought into this idea that if we're not busy all the time, then we're somehow slashing on to that we're not good enough, we're not doing enough.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas men don't seem to have that problem.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Even the busiest men, like, you know, I see my father who's got a very big job, and literally will come home and just kind of you know lie down.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas women come home from busy jobs and they still they're still going and they're still running.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we we need to buy out of that.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like we need to because it's we're hurting ourselves more than anybody else.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: The world can manage without us for a few minutes.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: We are, you know, we are hurting ourselves when we don't give ourselves that that downtime.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: We need we need the quiet, we need the solitude for our brains to power down.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: They're not meant to be active all the time.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it is a bit a choice, and I think that's what you also talk about.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's about choosing how you want to live and choosing to make that time to be alone or to to be quiet, and it's okay.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it actually is in our control if we make that choice.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I say that to my children, you have to actually make that choice.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, my other daughter, who she's a doctor, she has no choice.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: She's 16 hours in the hospital.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: She wouldn't know if it's day or night, right?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: She wouldn't even know.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, so she'll just say, I just have no choice.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just, but that's not necessarily alone time, but sometimes it is on night shift.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: She's just got to be alone with her thoughts and process what she's dealing with.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's actually a very important skill and resource.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: And if you shut that down, we become ineffective as well at what we're trying to do.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: I can't interview someone if I haven't taken the time to research and understood quietly what they've written, what they're doing, who they are.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: So it is, it is also about just taking some time to be effective too.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be just doing nothing.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: It can be especially in a huge job.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if she is, you know, working 16 hours and then she has even five minutes in a break room, but in that five minutes she's scrolling through her phone, then she's really never giving her mind the chance to power down to feel her feelings, to kind of debrief about what yeah, feel her feelings, debrief with herself, check in with herself.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's you know, not everybody is going to be able to go and take a full day off here or you know, have a weekend of solitude, but everybody can take those few incidental moments.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the number of people who literally will take their phones into the toilet and sit and scroll on the toilet, or have a podcast blaring while they're in the shower, or when they're in the car.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like we all get those incidental moments, and that's a really good place to start.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not enough in the long term, but it's a good place for people to start.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so funny because, you know, something I wrote about like with the culture that we're in at the moment, we're all very concerned about the right to self-determination, right?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: The right to live how we want to live, to be who we want to be.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: All the young people, you know, I've got two young adults myself, and and I completely support them in that and try to empower them this to be the person they want to be.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if you never actually stop and get to know yourself, how are you going to be that person?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like exactly.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Who is this person that you're trying to be?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't value yourself enough to spend time with yourself and to figure out who you are and what you want your life to look look like, what are you fighting for?
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like they're all fighting for the right to be themselves, but they don't value that themselves enough to spend time with them.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's it's cyclical.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think also the real question that your book brought up for me too is what what is everyone so afraid of?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: What is like I think there's a fundamental fear.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: And the interesting thing is I was reflecting because um recently we had a loss in the family, so there was grief, and and I'm sure, and I know you've had your own experience with grief when you lost your sister.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: At the end of the day, grief is also, and you talk about this, you talk about the fear of death, the fear of loss, the fear of the feelings.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is a real fear of pain, and which is a very fundamental human condition.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, you then go on to talk about literary greats in a way who have taken the time to really become very isolated and and and step out of the world in order to feel the pain, to re in order to, whether it's a Shakespeare or to whoever, to write, you can't do that if you don't go there in a way.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that was really interesting because I think that has a big part to play in what we're exploring here, which is huge, huge.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, I I want to say, and I made the point in the book, that not everybody is safe to be alone all the time.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are in active crisis, if you're having a mental health crisis, if you're severely traumatized, um, then you know, you're not a space to be alone with your thoughts.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: But for the vast majority of us, we need that time to feel our feelings as well as think our thoughts.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's two different parts to it.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of feelings, our society in particular is really bad at dealing with pain.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we have this weird idea that we should be able to go through our lives without pain.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if we have pain, it's kind of aberrant, it's it's not right, it's not normal.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: We have to kind of push push it away or yeah, push through as as as quickly as possible.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we somehow talked about something that I know very well because I've experienced it.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I lost my sister, she was 37, she was my best friend, my only sibling.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: And pain, pain isn't like a consistent, um, terrifying, overwhelming feeling.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's it comes in waves.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the one way you can guarantee that pain is going to stick around is if you keep trying to push it away, because it's going to find a way to come back and bite you on the bum.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: But if you actually allow yourself time to sit with your pain, you'll find that it comes, it overwhelms you, and then it recedes again.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: Then it comes later and overwhelms you, recedes.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: But then the waves gradually, gradually over time, get less and more manageable, and you can find a way to live with it.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, one person that I interviewed had lost a child.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and obviously it's the worst possible loss one can have.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: And she set aside, I think it was 15 minutes every morning to sit with her grief and sit with her pain.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this was, you know, quite a while down the track.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: And she would allow it all to wash over her, and then she could take a deep breath at the end of that 15 minutes and get on with her day with a smile.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the key.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if we're if we're less terrified of pain, if we understand and accept that pain is part of the human condition and allow ourselves to feel those feelings and give ourselves space and time to do it, then we're going to be able to move through it and make it more manageable as we continue on with our lives.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for listening.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: Love death.