Latest / Energy Empire / We've Been Piloting Grid Solutions for 20 Years. It's Time to Deploy.

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We've Been Piloting Grid Solutions for 20 Years. It's Time to Deploy. · Energy Empire

0:00
Everyone is in pain, right? The the governors are in pain,
0:03
the utilities are in pain, the public service commissions are
0:05
in pain. The Walmarts and the people who
0:07
use electricity are in pain, right?
0:09
Like, and over here we've got aspirin, right?
0:14
And everyone's like, I don't know, we need to do like a five
0:18
year study as to whether I should take aspirin.
0:26
Hello, my name is Sugar Shaw and I'm a clean energy entrepreneur.
0:29
Hi, my name is Arnab Pal and I'm a self-described clean energy
0:33
whisperer. I love it.
0:35
Well, look, I mean, it is such a pleasure to have Vishal on.
0:39
I don't know if you know him at all, but he has had so many
0:43
amazing experiences in his career.
0:45
And frankly, I think what he's taking on right now is got to be
0:49
the hardest assignment yet because he's working with the
0:52
electric utility companies and they are his customer.
0:56
But you know, I'm interesting to hear what he has to say because
1:00
Chris Wright this week talked about how great utilization was
1:04
going to be one of the top ways for us to get data centers
1:06
online. I did not expect that that was
1:09
not on my bingo card. But I feel like, you know, he's
1:12
reading the Brattle report and the deploy action state
1:16
playbook. So congratulations on that.
1:18
I'm. Sure, that's exactly what Chris
1:20
Wright does when he wakes up. It's like, what's the Deploy
1:22
Action Playbook say about energy today?
1:24
I mean you know, like 5 different people like repeat
1:28
what's in there and then eventually it's gets washed out
1:30
as a MAGA talking point. So there you go.
1:33
Yeah, that's that's my dream, to be a washed out MAGA talking
1:36
point. And then we've got the Spark
1:38
funding, right? So the old GRIP grants have been
1:41
recycled as Spark funding. And so that's coming out the
1:44
door. So I'd be curious to see, you
1:46
know, what Vishal thinks about that and whether he's chasing
1:48
them. Yeah, You know, I, I really want
1:51
to know, like, what's his strategy for, for speeding up
1:54
the process to get his technology deployed.
1:56
And, you know, I've had numerous utilities tell me and probably
2:00
you in private that's like, hey, we like all this stuff.
2:02
We're just not the best product managers.
2:05
And, and what I want to hear from Vishal is like, you have
2:08
something that everyone agrees works can bring down costs, can
2:12
help with capacity. So like, how do we get it out
2:15
there so everyone can benefit as soon as possible.
2:19
And you know, I'm, I'm really anxious to hear what his take is
2:22
on that. Well, and the value of
2:24
legislation, I mean, we just passed this great utilization
2:26
legislation in Virginia, which I think is going to help him out a
2:29
lot. And we'll, so we'll see what
2:32
that looks like. Because as you know, I've said
2:33
this multiple times. I have been in the room when
2:37
every single person around the table, every single vice
2:40
president is like, Yep, this is the best idea ever.
2:42
And then you leave the room for a bathroom break and they've
2:45
rejected the idea. So like I feel like utilities,
2:49
like even if everyone's on board the utility itself, like the
2:52
walls themselves make a decision, like it's different
2:57
than what everybody else in the room thinks.
2:59
Yeah, I mean, these are the most frustrating problems because
3:02
everybody agrees and and nobody agrees on how to do it.
3:08
And you're like, well, like, like, why are we, why are we
3:11
spending time doing something? There are needs to be get, get
3:13
done. And I think, you know, I think
3:15
these technologies and what Vishal is going to talk about is
3:18
right in that problem set. So, you know, let's see what he
3:20
has to say. This episode is supported by S2G
3:29
Investments. If you've been listening to me,
3:32
you know that I'm done talking about R&D.
3:35
We have the technology. The real question is can we
3:39
deploy it at scale? When I joined Sanjeev Krishnan
3:43
on the S2G podcast, we skipped the hype and talked about what
3:47
actually matters, affordability, fit for purpose, capital and
3:52
getting real infrastructure built.
3:55
S2G Investments is one of the only firms who brings that same
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deployment first mindset to energy, agriculture and the
4:04
oceans, connecting the dots across the real economy.
4:09
Listen to the S2G podcast on your favorite podcast app now
4:14
and start with my episode on energy affordability.
4:23
All right, well, this is a conversation I've been wanting
4:25
to have for a long time. Vishal, you and I have known
4:28
each other for some time and it is just such a pleasure to see
4:32
you and your not so new role. I think it's been over a year,
4:36
right, as the CEO of Line Vision?
4:38
It's about 9 months, nine months at this point.
4:40
There you go. There you go.
4:42
Well, welcome to the podcast. We are currently in an
4:47
extraordinary moment, right? A moment where we've got a power
4:51
crisis. We've got all of these
4:54
conversations are happening that, you know, frankly, you and
4:57
I used to have just in a nerdy corner.
5:01
You know, now it's being talked about by governors, talked about
5:04
by, you know, other parties, right?
5:07
Like, and so it's an interesting place you're in, but you didn't
5:10
start here, right? You started as a banker, as the
5:15
head of energy for Walmart. So all of these jobs to date
5:19
have been really finance related, right?
5:22
They're not necessarily you understanding exactly how
5:26
interconnection queues work, or how the grid works or how even
5:30
the procurement of power works per SE, right?
5:33
I mean, did you pick up any of this stuff along the way or is
5:36
that post the Morgan Stanley role?
5:40
Well, all of it trigger, I mean, along the way when you are, you
5:43
know, off raising capital and financing all of these assets,
5:45
you know, you're, you're the face of the project, you know,
5:48
or the portfolio, you know, to the the investor community.
5:51
And that necessitates building, you know, some level of
5:54
understanding, you know, understanding the IE reports,
5:57
the energy assessments, you know, the power contracts, the
5:59
risks contained in them, particularly, you know, sitting
6:02
at Morgan Stanley when we're financing a lot of utility scale
6:05
assets. I mean, that was with a lender
6:06
hat on and so really did have to develop that kind of in depth
6:10
understanding of what are the risks inherent in these assets.
6:13
You know, how are they being mitigated?
6:15
You know, what can be done to ultimately mitigate them coming.
6:17
There were a couple of assets that, you know, we owned, you
6:20
know, at within what subsequently became Orsted that
6:24
dealt with a lot of the issues related to winter storm Uri and
6:28
you know, had revenue contracts that left them vulnerable in
6:30
that regard. And so there was a need to kind
6:33
of, you know, work with all of our partners to figure out
6:35
solutions to the problems that that S bond.
6:37
And then the journey at Orsted was, you know very much a, a, a
6:41
hybrid finance and commercial type leadership role that was
6:45
not only responsible financing for financing and
6:47
commercializing organic development assets, but you know
6:50
that journey that we undertook to become the five GW full
6:53
spectrum global platform over a few years.
6:55
A lot of that growth was delivered via M&A and done in
6:59
across multiple markets, not just in the US, but beyond as
7:02
well. And so was able to kind of get a
7:05
full spectrum of experience across not just technologies and
7:08
life cycle of projects, but also across most different
7:11
geographies in the different markets that we were ultimately
7:14
evaluating and effectuating market entry into.
7:16
But I ended up leaving Worsted in in late 2021 to kind of
7:20
figure out what to do next. And I happened to get a call
7:23
from someone representing Walmart.
7:25
And I sort of laughed at the time, just given everything that
7:27
was going on in the environment, why would I ever go off to
7:31
Walmart with all of that opportunity out there?
7:33
And. I have flown, I have flown to
7:36
Bentonville way more than just once.
7:40
The direct flight to what is it Northwest Arkansas Airport.
7:44
That's right. Was, was was a mainstay for me.
7:47
It's, you know, and you know, I'm, I'm curious, though.
7:51
You know, you didn't just take the job.
7:54
You moved to Bentonville, right? I did not jigger.
7:58
I did not and but. You're like the one person that
8:01
was not forced to move to Bentonville.
8:03
I mean, indeed, let's be real, you're a Bentonville guy, so you
8:06
just you, you can't believe someone wouldn't take that
8:08
offer. I love Bentonville.
8:10
They had extraordinary barbecue in Bentonville.
8:14
They have transformed the, the area's been transformed, you
8:17
know, by the Walton family and Walmart.
8:18
I mean, there's a new headquarters that's been built
8:20
there. It's 350 acre campus.
8:22
I mean, it is, it is absolutely beautiful and it wasn't for me.
8:27
It's, but it's not just Walmart. I mean, they've got 3 Fortune
8:30
500 companies from Northwest Arkansas, right?
8:32
It's Tyson's food and JB Hunt. And JB Hunt.
8:36
That's right. That's right.
8:38
I think in that whole kind of triad that that there's a bit of
8:41
a triangle there. You know where I think if you
8:43
bring all of that together, it is Northwest Arkansas and I
8:46
think it's somewhere close to 1,000,000 people in that that
8:49
little corner of the state. So it's, it's grown
8:52
tremendously. I, I jigger.
8:54
So in 2022, I ended up joining Walmart to basically build and,
8:58
and lead that new energy strategy, you know, for the
9:00
company. And I'm really shift it from
9:03
being the energy function for being viewed as a cost center to
9:05
something like a value would create for the value creation
9:07
platform that it could be. And So what we really focused on
9:11
building was a a strategy and a team that was aimed at
9:14
delivering energy security and affordability for our
9:17
operations. And then ultimately the
9:18
communities that we were present in.
9:20
And then building new businesses around the energy transition
9:22
where there was an opportunity to be distinctive in doing so
9:25
with the ideal byproduct of those things to then being able
9:29
to help with emissions reduction and progress towards the 2040
9:32
goals. But I can.
9:33
Trigger, as I, you know, go ahead, Arnold.
9:36
I was going to say, you know, let's, we should click in a
9:39
little bit more on this energy transformation at Walmart.
9:43
And I think there's some specifics that you mentioned to
9:45
us that we'd love to to talk about.
9:46
So you know, you said that non related weather related outages
9:51
went up, you know, almost 20% in three or four years and you
9:56
know, there was some sort of grid deterioration around that.
9:59
And I'm curious, like, what did that look like when you're the
10:03
ones that are paying the Walmart electricity bills?
10:08
Well, it's not pleasant turn on. Let's just leave it at that,
10:11
right? I mean, I, you know, part of
10:12
what I oversaw was our energy PNL in the US and like that and
10:15
because we were spread all around the country, I was in a
10:17
unique position to be able to see across the country.
10:20
And what we saw was that invariably there's always some
10:23
exceptions here and there, but for the most part, costs were
10:27
going up and reliability was going down.
10:29
And you know, that was really very antithetical to anything in
10:32
a Walmart context when you think about supplier relationships, is
10:35
that we were effectively paying a lot more money for an
10:38
increasingly unreliable product. And so there was a need to kind
10:42
of take on, you know, more active role more so than already
10:45
been undertaken in, in advocating and participating
10:48
intervening and rape cases around the country.
10:50
And so it, it kind of goes beyond just paying the bills and
10:54
you know what was really about keeping the lights on in a lot
10:57
of different places because we're also investing in an
10:59
automation transformation across our footprint that was driving
11:03
billions of dollars of capital into transforming the core
11:06
supply chain operations of of the business.
11:10
And so if just sort of sit there feeling like a pretty deep sense
11:13
of urgency to dedicate lots of resources to take things into
11:16
your own hands. And so as we had done, we're
11:19
doing and we're building entire teams and mechanisms around
11:22
energy security, right? And so we'd start with energy
11:25
efficiency projects. You know, obviously the premise
11:27
being there that the and, and the reality being that the
11:30
cheapest and greatest electrons are the ones that we don't use.
11:32
And so trying to create awareness and, and change
11:35
operational processes to be able to, to effectuate that because
11:39
it's the lowest hanging fruit out there, but then also
11:41
assembling new mechanisms to assess risks and then dedicating
11:44
capital and other resources to be able to go off and solve
11:47
them. And so we were buying more
11:48
diesel generators, we were building solar storage, you
11:51
know, fuel cells, power quality monitoring infrastructure.
11:55
And obviously none of that was cheap, you know, both in terms
11:57
of dollars, but also time spent. And so, you know, Walmart and we
12:01
described ourselves at a tech powered Omni channel retailer.
12:04
And I used to go around saying that you, you can't be tech
12:06
powered without power, you know, in order to be able to help
12:08
people understand the gravity and, and, and, and need to
12:12
dedicate resources to what we're doing.
12:14
So look, from my perspective, there's nothing like being part
12:16
of Walmart and everything and everyone that it touches to help
12:20
you realize that there's what there's really no more
12:22
regressive tax that can be imposed on people than it
12:25
costing more money to keep the lights on or to keep the
12:27
refrigerator running, you know? And so it's pretty unique
12:30
perspective those able to, to, to derive from, from my
12:35
experience there. Well, it's, I mean, but it's
12:38
also something that is interesting, right?
12:41
Because you know, retail feels old and stodgy.
12:45
People have been doing it for a very long time.
12:47
But when you think about Walmart and Costco and now Amazon,
12:51
right? Like there's actually an
12:52
enormous amount of innovation, an enormous amount of cultural
12:56
change, right? Like, I mean, an enormous amount
12:58
of adoption of technology, right?
13:01
Which is almost the exact opposite of what you see in the
13:05
electric utility space, right? So when you're sitting in the
13:08
Walmart desk and you're, you know, like getting into rate
13:12
cases and you're getting into these things and you're going to
13:15
utilities and saying basically, why are you forcing me to spend
13:19
all of this money on backup diesel generators and all this
13:22
other stuff, right? Like, you know, why don't you
13:26
just do your job better, right? Like, I guess what I'm trying to
13:29
understand is it must have felt a bit powerless, right?
13:34
Yeah, Yeah, You could like seize the power by putting in micro
13:38
grids or putting in backup generators or whatever else,
13:41
right. But I don't you weren't really
13:44
able to fix the electric utilities that were serving you.
13:47
No trigger. I mean there's a limit, you
13:48
know, to what can be done in that regard.
13:50
And it's why we dedicated the resources that we did and why,
13:53
you know, you see a lot of the folks that are now, you know,
13:55
looking for access to power and the time frame that they're
13:58
looking for taking things into their own hands.
14:00
And you know, going off and building these teams and
14:02
building these capabilities to because they've realized that,
14:06
you know, there is an issue there as it relates to speed to
14:09
power. Now, look, I I'd say from the
14:11
utilities perspective, putting, you know, myself in my customer
14:15
shoes now, I mean, it's not for lack of trying, right?
14:17
I mean, like there are great people at these businesses that
14:20
are trying to do the right thing, but they are have been
14:24
working in, you know, a certain way for, you know, a number of
14:28
years. They haven't dealt with
14:29
conditions like this in quite some time.
14:32
You know, many of the folks are not they're not used to being
14:35
able to operate at that pace. On top of that, they're
14:38
stretched thinner than than they ever have been.
14:41
And, and it's a I, I, I empathize with them, you know,
14:47
having to kind of, you know, change virtually overnight, you
14:50
know, on the back of really 18 or 24 months.
14:53
So just full on rush and, you know, place where we were, you
14:57
know, just two and a half, three years ago, plenty of excess
15:01
capacity. And, you know, here we are today
15:03
where, you know, we're, we're very, very short and we're
15:05
talking about, you know, power demand, I think peak load being
15:09
at 6X and 20-30, you know, what it was or what it is, you know,
15:13
today or, you know, a year ago. And so it's a, it's a pretty
15:17
significant shift. And yes, from the perspective of
15:20
large energy consumer that's looking to achieve those
15:22
objectives of keeping the lights on and keeping costs low, you
15:26
almost don't have a choice, you know, but to go off and
15:29
effectuate, you know, all of these new capabilities and and
15:32
ways of working to be able to respond to that.
15:35
One of the things that you saw first hand from Walmart, right,
15:38
was that generation costs have basically stayed the same since
15:42
2010, right? Like they haven't really gone up
15:45
that much on the wholesale power side.
15:47
Then you've got transmission costs which have gone up, right,
15:50
from, you know, 1.2 cents a kilo an hour to maybe 2 cents a kilo
15:53
an hour today, but still in line with inflation really since 2010
15:57
or so. And it's distribution costs that
15:59
have just spiked, right? Like in a big way, right?
16:02
So, and so now we're in a situation where we have to meet
16:08
this speed to power, this load growth, this increase in peak
16:12
demand, right? You've been CEO at Line Vision
16:16
for nine months, right? And you guys are talking about
16:20
things on a specific basis, right?
16:23
Like specific customers, specific states, etcetera,
16:25
right? But now you've also got this
16:28
macro view that's coming into focus, right, which is around
16:32
how do we get more out of the assets we've already paid for,
16:34
right? Some people are calling it great
16:36
utilization, right? Others are, you know, using
16:40
things like grid enhancing technologies or grid
16:43
modernization or some of that stuff, right?
16:46
But you know, but ultimately there's, there's some real
16:49
barriers in the way. Like I, I mean, I understand the
16:52
need to sort of say that, well, folks have it hard and you know,
16:56
their grandfathers taught them a certain way and you know, it's
16:59
hard to lose old habits. But ultimately part of the
17:03
challenge is, is that folks get paid to make money by spending
17:08
money, right? The, the model itself is one of
17:13
rate base, right? And when we had no real load
17:15
growth from 2003 to 2022, right then, you know, you sort of had
17:22
a manufacturer, he had a manufacturer like, you know,
17:25
ways to spend money today. That's not the challenge, but
17:29
old habits die hard, right? I mean, so how is it that you
17:33
guys go to market? Like I mean, what is the company
17:36
that you're running and how do you, how is it that you guys go
17:38
to market? Yeah, I would say First off,
17:41
Trigger, I look, I just go back to the Walmart pilot.
17:43
I loved what I was doing at Walmart, you know, a great
17:45
people diversity, the footprint, it kind of touched everything
17:47
across energy, mobility facilities.
17:49
And I was living, you know, here in the Boston area the entire
17:53
time, though. And, you know, for us moving to
17:54
Bentonville wasn't something that was, was going to happen
17:57
because during, during my whole career arc, you know, we moved
18:00
12 times in about 10 years. And on two of those moves, my,
18:03
my wife happened to be 7 or 8 months pregnant.
18:06
And so you talk about the, we'll talk about the critical backbone
18:09
of our economy in a moment. But I mean, she's a critical
18:11
backbone of our family. And none of what I do happens
18:13
without her. But, you know, look, we were, we
18:15
were done moving. You know, I had two kids growing
18:17
up super fast. I was missing out a lot of time.
18:19
I wasn't going to get back as it became a logistics problem.
18:21
But to your point, I mean, around the feeling of being
18:23
powerless, you know, it was pretty obvious that we have all
18:26
these problems, right? Like affordability, available
18:28
reliability and they weren't going away.
18:30
And I, I hear you on sort of the, you know, focusing on the
18:33
distribution bitch. But like as as I tended to do, I
18:36
key in on the numbers, right? And like we do have a tremendous
18:38
amount of wasted energy in the US because of grid constraints,
18:41
transmission grid constraints. And you know, the, the cost of
18:44
that's on average $15 billion per year now and that average
18:48
has doubled over the past five years.
18:51
On the CapEx side, you know we're we're spending $45 billion
18:55
on transmission CapEx per year and that numbers only going up,
18:58
up in a few years time will be north of 50 billion and you know
19:01
60 billion by 2030. And needs to be double that
19:03
number. Exactly and PJM transmission is
19:06
actually a third of wholesale power costs now.
19:08
And so like all all of this is coming at us collectively and
19:12
it's only going One Direction and utilities need help, right.
19:15
And so to me, you know, the the why around line vision from my
19:19
perspective is that look to be able to do that in a place where
19:22
it's unquestionably the hardest to build new infrastructure on
19:25
the transmission side. And you know, with the traction
19:27
that we have had in establishing, you know,
19:29
relationships with some of the largest utilities across the US
19:32
and the UK folks like National Grid, Dominion, Exelon, Georgia
19:36
Power. I mean, for me, I saw what the
19:38
company was doing that is was tremendously untapped resource
19:41
that if it could deliver tremendous value for the system
19:46
writ large if someone came in and was able to figure out how
19:48
to make it all go faster, right? But we are up against that
19:51
inherent incentive misalignment. You know, certainly here in AUS
19:55
context, the UK is a bit of a Unicorn in this regard.
19:59
And that they actually have policy mechanisms in place to
20:02
incentivize the transmission operators to reduce congestion
20:05
by allowing them to share in the savings of the costs that they
20:09
reduced or that they're able to reduce across the system.
20:13
That is something that's, you know, does not exist, you know,
20:15
here in the US in the transmission context.
20:17
And and it requires change, you know, it requires repositioning
20:21
of our solution to be able to ultimately help speak to a value
20:25
proposition that they will respond to, you know.
20:28
No, I get it. I mean, I, you know, like I
20:30
often say that our transmission infrastructure is sort of, you
20:34
know, measured in, you know, by slide roll, right?
20:38
The amount of capacity that all this transmission has, right?
20:41
I mean, your technology really is replacing that slide rule
20:45
with dynamic ratings and, you know, the ability to actually
20:48
really unlock the capacity that's just sitting there,
20:51
right? So like, you know, how do you
20:54
guys think about that? Yeah.
20:56
We'll look just simplistically on the technology.
20:57
And I think about our transmission lines, you know, as
20:59
highways and, you know, electrons as cars driving along
21:02
those highways. And there's going to be certain
21:04
times where you might have extra lanes available on those
21:07
highways. And other cases you might just
21:10
have too many cars out there and you need more lanes.
21:12
And you know, when it comes to transmission lines, the
21:14
determination of what is actually available is made on
21:17
the basis of worst case operating conditions, right?
21:20
That it's really, really hot with no wind and the lines are
21:23
there for, you know, really hot. And so when you factor in like
21:27
hyperlocal environmental conditions, things like I
21:30
ambient temperature and what's most impactful is wind speed and
21:33
direction because of the cooling effect that it has on lines,
21:36
then you now have the most accurate information on what's
21:38
actually available. How many lanes are there on the
21:40
highway? And that's what dynamic line
21:43
ratings are. I mean, it is critical
21:44
information to tell us more precisely how many lanes there
21:47
are on those highways. And in other words, it's a true
21:50
capacity of transmission lines. And look that at the core.
21:53
That's the core of what we do at Line Vision.
21:55
Like we provide that critical intelligence layer on the
21:57
critical backbone of our power system.
21:59
And look, it matters because we do have these problems.
22:03
Take a right availability, affordability, reliability.
22:05
I mean, they're not going away. They're only getting worse.
22:07
And you know, what attracted me to the business and where we
22:09
drive value is we unlock value across all of those things.
22:12
You know, I want to Vishal, I want to go back to.
22:14
I think one of our favorite topics is that utilities need
22:17
help and, and I think that's right.
22:21
And I think their their intentions generally tend to be
22:23
good here. You know, Jigger and I have
22:26
spent the last two years sort of building this case policy case
22:29
for grid utilization, which we've talked about, which is
22:32
this all-encompassing term with what you're doing on the
22:34
transmission side and a lot of the work we're doing on the
22:36
distribution side. You know, Virginia just passed
22:38
its first in the nation grid utilization bill, still to be
22:41
signed by the governor. And you know, Dominion, one of
22:44
your customers didn't avert it. In fact, they supported it and
22:48
helped us, you know, in the background on it.
22:52
Is it this legislation? Is this what we need to get
22:56
utilities to to, to look at what they've what they already have
23:00
before spending billions more? Well, look, Arno, but I think
23:05
when you, when you talk about, look, what we are trying to do,
23:08
right is we, we figured, we feel like we figured out the what in
23:12
terms of having a product that's flexible, scalable, you know,
23:14
utility grade. We figured out the why in terms
23:17
of articulating a value proposition, you know, for our
23:20
solution. And we're really now very much
23:22
focused on is the how, right? How do we make it easier for our
23:24
customers to do business with us and do more.
23:26
And so when you talk about, you know, air cover to be able to
23:28
help things move faster, nothing delivers that, you know, like
23:32
regulation and legislation, right?
23:34
But I, I do think there's other issues at play now.
23:36
And I, I don't think, you know, stopping at reporting
23:39
requirements or just commitments to sort of evaluate and study
23:43
really go far enough when it comes to proven technologies,
23:46
right? And in the case of DLR, it's
23:48
been utilized in Europe since the early part of the last
23:50
decade. You know, we're deploying at
23:52
scale with National Grid in the US and, or in the UKI should
23:56
say. And look, as a country, I just
23:57
think we need to deploy proven technology and we need to do it
24:00
fast when we've got an opportunity to do that, because
24:03
there's not a lot of things that you can do quickly and cost
24:06
effectively. And I think the dynamic now, you
24:08
know, Arnab here is that like for utilities, every GW of load
24:13
that gets built off grid is a tremendous amount of lost
24:15
profits now. And it also then ends up raising
24:18
cost for consumers because it's depressing asset utilization of
24:21
the existing infrastructure. And so I think for look for our
24:25
country, rising electricity prices, they don't just cause
24:27
pain directly for residential customers.
24:29
They cause indirect pain because when the cost of your core
24:32
inputs increase, broader prices are going to increase.
24:34
And then all of a sudden you wake up and your economy is
24:37
structurally uncompetitive. And so to me, look, improving
24:40
utilization helps with speed, it helps with affordability and
24:43
legislation is obviously incredibly helpful in that
24:45
regard. And in the case of DLR, you know
24:48
FERC as, as they have done with, you know, with Order 881 to be
24:52
able to mandate ambient adjusted ratings and, and, and the steps
24:56
that were taken to prepare for that, they could just mandate
24:59
DLR everywhere and that would solve a lot of problems and do
25:02
it quickly. Which they're not in.
25:03
The absence of. Doing right?
25:05
I mean, I guess like part of part of my problem, Michelle, is
25:09
I want to understand as somebody who has also worked on this for
25:13
20 years, right? I just want to understand when
25:16
you have a no brainer, which is what I think DLR represents,
25:20
right? And you have a crisis, which is
25:23
what I think load growth from data centers represents, right?
25:27
Like, how much time do I give people to get there?
25:33
Like, I guess what I'm trying to understand is like, is five
25:36
years what I should like is what I should be expecting.
25:39
Like in your job at Walmart or Orsted or like at Lincoln or at
25:45
Barclays? Like, is that what you would do
25:47
when you're like, oh, I got a tiger by the tail?
25:49
This thing is going to really make everyone's lives better.
25:51
We're going to make a lot of money at it.
25:52
Let's figure out how to like get it done in five years.
25:54
I, I guess I'm just trying to understand like, I as I'm not
25:59
upset. I have a lot of empathy for the
26:02
utilities. And you said the same, same
26:03
thing, right? So I'm not trying to beat them
26:05
up. What I'm trying to understand
26:07
from a systems point of view, is it like everyone is in pain,
26:12
right? The the governors are in pain,
26:14
the utilities are in pain, the public service commissions are
26:17
in pain. The Walmarts and the people who
26:19
use electricity are in pain, right?
26:21
Like, and over here we've got aspirin, right?
26:25
And everyone's like, I don't know, we need to do like a five
26:29
year study as to whether I should take aspirin, like I
26:32
don't know. And Vishal, to get some context
26:34
on what you're saying, I think everyone agrees with what what
26:38
you what your solution here is. And it's one of those consensus
26:41
like no brainers. But then when you put it in a
26:44
resource planning model, which maybe is the counter of the
26:47
aspirin, I don't know where you're going with this trigger,
26:50
you know, it's not getting selected right.
26:53
And and maybe not your technology specifically, but
26:56
everyone's like, oh, well, we put it in the cost effectiveness
26:59
calculator and you know, like, you know, these grid enhancing
27:02
technologies didn't show up. So we had to build a new line
27:05
And, and I'm over exaggerating a little bit, but not really.
27:09
So like, what's going on? Yeah.
27:12
So look, I would say in the, in the case of line ratings in
27:15
particular, right, like with DLRII mean, I think in, in
27:20
fairness to, you know, our utility counterparts, I don't
27:22
think the industry did a particularly effective job in
27:24
articulating the value proposition of the solution,
27:26
right? Like the, the entire construct
27:28
was based on take a sensor, deploy it on a tower, like have
27:31
a line rating right? Now look what I, what I did when
27:34
I first got here, it was, I went off and started talking to our
27:36
customers to understand like what, what are we doing well?
27:39
What are we not doing well? What are we doing better, right?
27:41
So I heard a couple of, I heard a lot of things, but you know,
27:44
I'll point to a couple, you know, 11 is that, you know, 1
27:47
customer says, hey, look, I really like the information that
27:50
I get, you know, from your solution.
27:51
But if you think that I'm going to put a sensor on 40,000
27:54
structures across my territory, like it's just never going to
27:57
happen. OK.
27:58
That's kind of #1 #2 was a lot of the work that we've been
28:01
doing, you know, to be able to, to reduce congestion.
28:05
You know, in some of the territories.
28:07
What we realized is that, you know, congestion might be
28:09
resolved in a particular location by virtue of, you know,
28:12
re rating a particular line. But the system operator might
28:16
not actually see any value from it because it would just be
28:18
getting pushed to another place. And so it really became, it has
28:21
become about like delivering a fit for purpose solution that
28:25
can deliver network level visibility.
28:27
And, you know, I the dynamic line ratings industry has not,
28:31
you know, a articulated the value proposition effectively
28:34
enough, but then B had that ability to have a fit for
28:37
purpose solution that can be deployed at that level of scale
28:40
so that you actually can unlock that ROI.
28:42
And that's where with a lot of the change that frankly, we've
28:45
driven here at Line Vision, you know, over not a five year time
28:48
frame trigger a nine month time frame, you know, we very quickly
28:51
evolved, you know, our solution from a line level solution
28:54
that's enabled by a sensor to one that is a network level
28:57
solution that is enhanced by sensors.
28:59
And we're able to do that because we had all those sensors
29:02
out there in the field off different types of topography,
29:05
different terrain, different structures.
29:06
And that has allowed us to be able to now infer across the
29:09
entirety of a network, right? And so it's now look, you're not
29:13
going to have the same degree of accuracy, you know, at a place
29:16
where you a place where you don't have a sensor where as you
29:18
do. But there's also this reality
29:20
that not all parts of a network are created equal and operated
29:24
in the same way. You know, some of them are not,
29:26
some of the lines aren't heavily loaded.
29:27
You know, some of them are very heavily loaded and are serving
29:31
critical infrastructure. And so you do need that maximum
29:34
visibility, but having something that's fit for purpose and
29:37
understanding, you know, of that reality of the fact that not all
29:41
parts of a network are created equal.
29:43
And then also understanding that, look, a problem today is
29:46
not necessarily where the problem tomorrow is going to be.
29:49
That these networks are not just static beings.
29:52
They're going to change over time.
29:54
The industry have a fit for purpose solution or a value
29:56
proposition or a narrative to be able to address that and and and
30:00
to it to that to have a product that was quickly deploy all cost
30:03
effective to actually solve the problem.
30:05
And so I think we've we've addressed that, you know,
30:08
certainly here at line vision, you know, in terms of the what
30:11
with the product that we have, the why, you know, in terms of,
30:14
you know, why to go off and do this and the value proposition
30:17
thereof. And it really is about the how.
30:19
And so like zooming into a particular upgrade, for
30:23
instance, like if you had used this information in planning,
30:26
this is what would have changed. You would have not had to
30:28
effectuate this upgrade. This is what the dollar impact
30:31
of that would be, but not just with that upgrade, but with
30:33
everything that that upgrade leads to at the end of the day,
30:36
right? Or obviating that upgrade.
30:37
And that is faster time to power for a new industrial facility,
30:41
the tax revenue associated with that, the jobs associated with
30:44
that. I mean, what we're really
30:45
talking about is helping people understand the use that the use
30:49
of imperfect information and plan is actually impeding GDP
30:52
growth and then creating awareness on that reality.
30:56
And I mean, look, electricity is I go back to can't be tech
31:01
powered without power at the end of the day.
31:03
And we have this, we have this this incredible invention that
31:07
is probably the most valuable asset in the history of Ankhut
31:11
our existing grid, right? And I think it's about helping
31:14
people understand, telling the story about, you know, what are
31:18
the effects, you know, of failures in planning or the use
31:22
of imperfect information and planning.
31:23
And from someone who's come from, you know, or seen this
31:27
from every side of the equation, right?
31:29
Where look, in the process by which you as a power developer
31:34
are looking to ultimately get your project into the queue.
31:37
And then you wait two years, three years for a study to be
31:39
done. And then you have something that
31:41
turns up on the back of a very opaque process that hits you
31:45
with this massive upgrade. And now maybe you don't have a
31:48
project you know anymore and what now is sitting on the other
31:51
side of that project is, is a data center or a new perishable
31:55
distribution center or what have you.
31:57
And the the effects because of where we are from a demand
32:02
perspective of inefficiencies in that planning, I think just need
32:06
to be folks need to be made aware of that and the
32:08
connectivity of some of those imperfections and inefficiencies
32:12
in planning to precluding the ability to grow GDP and win the
32:18
AI race. So let's.
32:19
Talk about. Respond with the level of speed
32:21
to power. Yeah, but let's talk about
32:23
scale, right? Cuz I feel like, look, we're
32:25
gonna still keep building more generation.
32:27
We're still gonna keep building out the transmission grid.
32:29
All that stuff has to happen, right?
32:32
But if if people really took your technology seriously and
32:35
deployed it at scale nationwide, and then also deployed, you
32:39
know, batteries at Walmart stores and, you know, all of the
32:42
competitors that you have and like, you know, deploy the stuff
32:45
that you and I believe are piloted proven.
32:50
Like we have data, we have case studies, we have a story, right?
32:54
Yeah. It does feel like you could do a
32:56
lot. I mean, Chris Wright, the
32:58
current, you know, Secretary of Energy, just said on stage that,
33:03
you know, that he thinks that there's an extra 100 gigawatts
33:06
of capacity that could be unlocked with all these
33:09
solutions if they were deployed at scale.
33:11
Like is that the kind of scale we're talking about?
33:13
How much scale can we get to and how fast can we get to it?
33:17
Yeah, I mean, look, I JIRA, I think like the, you're going to
33:21
have different, different circumstances in different
33:23
places. And I'm going to just speak to
33:25
kind of DLR specifically, right, Because it's where we spend our
33:29
time. And I think there are certain
33:30
parts of the country, you know, where there's a tremendous
33:33
amount of latent capacity, particularly in the, the, the
33:36
wind resource regimes, right? Where you know, what we are
33:39
ultimately relying on to unlock this capacity is having insights
33:43
into the wind speed and direction, you know, on these
33:44
transmission lines and places up and down the middle of the
33:47
country across ERCOT, SBP, MISO, the same places where all the.
33:51
Blood the wind development is done is a lot.
33:53
Of latent capacity. So I think North Dakota, South
33:55
Dakota, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, like these are
34:00
all that wind belt where those states are all 3040% wind power.
34:05
You've got it. There's a, there's a quite a bit
34:07
of latent capacity, you know, in a in those areas.
34:10
Now there are other, you know, parts of the country where you
34:13
have the opposite issue is that, you know, the use of ambient
34:16
adjusted ratings, you know which FERC has mandated because it is
34:20
also imperfect information is also in some pockets as we're
34:24
starting to do some work seeing that like lines are actually now
34:27
being operating at over capacity because of the use of imperfect
34:32
information there, right. And so I think trigger like, you
34:35
know, if I it the, the answer is it's complicated.
34:38
And some parts of the country you have a very robust story as
34:42
the areas that I mentioned. In other parts of the country,
34:46
perhaps not so much. But from my standpoint, that is
34:49
information that then helps you understand like, OK, well, where
34:52
do I need to invest, you know, resources to be able to address
34:55
these issues at that level of scale in the most optimal way?
34:59
And that's where things like looked at the Spark program, you
35:02
know, round three of the, you know, the grid deployment office
35:05
funding that is now being deployed where look, there's a
35:09
lot of, you know, capital that's now going to be deployed
35:11
towards, you know, reconducting and advanced transmission
35:13
technologies. And you know, from my
35:15
standpoint, we can get a whole lot further with those dollars
35:20
if we have information that can help us understand where and
35:24
when those dollars are going to go furthest at the.
35:26
End of the day, I hear you, but just to be clear, I mean that
35:28
Spark programs like over a billion dollars, right, of new
35:31
grant funding to to, to roll out your solution nationwide to be
35:36
like 500 million bucks, right? I mean, like, I just want to
35:41
make sure that people understand like the context of what we're
35:44
talking about here, right? Like it's not that much money to
35:47
unlock all this extra capacity, right?
35:49
It just isn't. And so, like, look, I get the
35:52
fact that you've got a business to run and you've got to like,
35:54
you know, work with a lot of these customers.
35:57
But like, from my side, I'm like, God damn it, why can't
36:00
America do big things, right? Like, I mean, we've invented all
36:03
this stuff. We then had to ship it over to
36:05
the UK because we weren't going to scale it up.
36:08
So we're like, why don't you take it to scale it up?
36:10
And then, you know, they went to Belgium, they went to other
36:12
places. I think even Brazil and India
36:14
are using dynamic line ratings. And now we're like, all right,
36:17
well, now that 20 other countries around the world have
36:20
tested it, maybe we should take our homegrown technologies and
36:23
deploy it at scale. Like the thing that bothers me
36:26
the most is it we have this venture capital, like, you know,
36:30
ecosystem. We have all these investors,
36:32
right? You guys have, I think S2G and
36:34
others that are invested in you guys.
36:36
And like, I want them to make a lot of money.
36:39
I want them to be a huge return on investment so they'll keep
36:43
investing in the next generation of companies.
36:46
But that requires you to like, actually be able to realize your
36:50
full potential. Am I wrong?
36:54
No, you're spot on. I I mean, I, you know, I, I
36:58
would love for all of this to go faster Jigger, right?
37:00
And you know, look, I'm, I would, I would just say as it
37:03
relates to, you know, DLR, you know, I'll go back to like,
37:06
look, I, I don't think the industry, you know, really gave
37:10
anyone a reason to scale, OK. I think that's the change we've
37:14
driven, you know, here in the last, you know, in the nine
37:16
months I've been here, right, like I said, dealt with the what
37:20
having a product that is scalable, flexible and utility
37:23
grade because look, I don't want to, I don't want to discount,
37:26
you know, that like it's not just hey, flipping a switch,
37:28
right? Like I have some people talking
37:30
about like, Hey, you can turn this on like Netflix, Like it's,
37:32
it's not that like there is a systems integration that needs
37:35
to occur right into utility EMS, right?
37:37
That that takes time, that takes resources, right?
37:40
But we're positioned in a place where we've done that.
37:42
You know, we're on the road map to do that with seven different
37:44
customers now, right. And so as I said, we've got to
37:48
watch, you know, flexible, scalable utility grade and we
37:51
have a compelling why, right? The ROI is very clear, you know,
37:54
in terms of the value that it drives.
37:56
And we are connecting that, you know, with our customers to
37:59
actual dollar value outcomes to be able to help our customers
38:02
understand the totality of the value proposition across not
38:06
just, you know, within operations, but the planning
38:08
applications of it as well. And I'll go back to Jigger is
38:12
just about the how right and the how is complicated, right?
38:15
Like every utility is different. They've got different problems,
38:18
they've got different, different types of customers that they're
38:22
ultimately dealing with and managing against.
38:24
And you know what, what I am trying to do, you know, by
38:27
spending some time with you and you know ultimately through
38:31
creating more awareness by virtue of, you know, things that
38:34
we will be working with our customers on, working with
38:37
states on, you know, proposing we do ourselves as part of that
38:40
Spark running program. Creating awareness of the
38:43
scalability, the flexibility, the cost effectiveness of our
38:47
solution, not just as a value driver in and of itself, but as
38:51
a value driver for how, when and where to deploy the other grid
38:55
enhancing technologies like reconducting like storage, you
38:59
know on down the list. So.
39:02
Feed from there. And to put a finer point on what
39:05
Jigger's saying, and any awareness is important, you
39:08
know, that's why we do this. But what needs to change?
39:12
So like simply like if you, if Jigger gets his wish and he has
39:17
a magic wand and we get all this stuff in 15 done in 15 months.
39:22
I know that's maybe not realistic, but it should be done
39:26
in 15 months. Like what would what was one
39:29
thing that we could do? We as in the proverbial we not
39:32
not the three of us here to to make that happen.
39:36
Yeah. Well, look, lots of things
39:39
should be done in 15 months, right?
39:40
And like, so I'd, I'd, you know, I, I, I would having having gone
39:44
through what I went through at Walmart, right.
39:46
And like understanding the scale of the operation, what people
39:49
are focused on, you know, you're needing to wedge something in
39:53
that quite frankly, like in the grand scheme of things is, you
39:57
know, small relative to some of the other things that folks are
40:01
spending their time in Efron. And I will go back to the fact
40:03
that like people are trying to do the right thing, OK?
40:06
I haven't run into any customer who says, yeah, I don't want to
40:09
do this because it's not aligned to my core business model of
40:12
wanting to spend more money, OK? Like people like these folks
40:16
were working harder than they've ever worked, OK.
40:19
And I. I do want, you know, folks to be
40:22
aware of that, like, you know, can't paint all of it with a
40:24
broad brush and they're stretched super thin.
40:26
Now, having said that, like I think it's about planning or
40:29
not, right? Like, I mean, I think the, the,
40:31
the current planning approach isn't all wrong, right?
40:34
Because obviously, like I think when you're on a relative basis,
40:36
electricity service here and from the most of our cost
40:39
perspective, reliability perspective, if you look
40:41
globally is generally quite competitive, right?
40:44
But with all of these new technologies, they can be grid
40:47
assets. I don't think there's any
40:48
question about that. You know, the, the, the argument
40:51
has always been that like, look, they're not firm fixed.
40:53
I can't rely on them in my N -, 1 case and what have you.
40:56
But I think current events are demonstrating that nothing is
40:59
really firm fixed, right? Like if you're sitting there in,
41:02
in the UK, for instance, you know, and now you've just had a
41:05
massive supply disruption to all the gas in your country.
41:08
Well, you people were thinking about gas as firm fixed.
41:10
That's no longer the case anymore because other things can
41:12
happen, right? But I think the fundamental
41:14
issue is that there's a need to look at all of these
41:17
technologies as a whole instead of on an individual basis.
41:20
And when you do that, like I am certain that there are many 1 +
41:24
1 = 5 circumstances when you look at them in an integrated
41:27
fashion. For instance, DLR on its own
41:30
right, even in the middle of the country where your DLR is going
41:33
to exceed your, your static rating, you know, over 80% of
41:37
the hours, you know, in a given year.
41:39
Look, that's still not firm fixed capacity, right?
41:42
Like there's a 20% gap that needs to be addressed.
41:45
Storage, 4 hour battery on a stand alone basis is not firm
41:50
fixed capacity because of the duration of limitations.
41:52
Well, what happens when you pair those things together?
41:55
Right now you have something that potentially can be, you
41:58
know, firm fixed. And that's just a small example
42:00
of looking at two of these technologies.
42:02
If you then start to factor in, you know, VPPS, you know,
42:05
storage, you know, EVs that are out there on the system, I, I
42:09
think 1 + 1 = 5 and probably a hell of a lot more than that
42:12
when you start to look at these things in an integrated fashion.
42:15
And so my view would be just take.
42:18
Let's talk about 1 + 1 = 5, right?
42:20
Because I think the other thing you guys do is a lot of work on
42:24
the resilience of wildfire side of things, right?
42:26
So you're providing information to utilities on that front too,
42:29
right? So talk about that a little bit.
42:31
And you know how your product not only unlocks the grid, but
42:36
also provides valuable information to prevent wildfires
42:39
and, you know, other issues. Yeah.
42:41
So look, we've obviously talked a lot about, you know, our DLR
42:44
solution, which I think about as being enhanced by sensors,
42:47
right. But what you're touching on
42:49
trigger is like our is our situational awareness solution,
42:51
which is entirely powered and enabled by our sensors.
42:54
And you know, the the latest generation hardware device that
42:57
we're deploying is a camera based sensor that's paired with
43:00
a weather station air quality monitoring capabilities as well.
43:03
And so not only are we gathering the hyperlocal weather
43:06
conditions that help enhance the accuracy of our DLR, but it's
43:10
also unlocking like visual intelligence along the
43:13
transmission right of way to monitor a conductor for things
43:16
like icing and galloping, you know, which were incredibly
43:18
relevant, you know, the Texas freeze of winter Storm Yuri, but
43:22
it is also is detecting things like vegetation encumbrances or
43:25
other encumbrances in the right of way.
43:26
And when you take into consideration the air quality
43:29
monitoring capabilities, that becomes very valuable
43:31
information as part of a broader wildfire risk intelligence
43:35
program, right? And so when you combine the
43:37
information from our line ratings, you know, with a lot of
43:40
these other capabilities, it puts us in a position to be able
43:43
to be able to stack value, you know, for our customers from the
43:46
same platform. And so it's something we're
43:49
quite excited about being able to deliver.
43:50
But it goes, it goes back to the point around articulating the
43:54
value proposition, right? And you know, it's, it's the R
43:57
in the ROI. There is a reliability and a
43:59
resilience use case through the use of these technologies.
44:03
All right, Vishal, I have grilled you, peppered you with
44:07
questions. Let's do a final question.
44:10
You've been the investor, the developer, the corporate
44:13
customer and now the grid tech CEO.
44:16
You've seen this from every angle.
44:18
And if you could change one thing about how utilities
44:21
approach grid planning, what would it be?
44:25
I'll build on when I said earlier, Jigger, right, that
44:27
like I, I think there's a, there's a need to kind of
44:30
approach the available solutions, you know, that are
44:33
out there now in an integrated fashion because 1 + 1 will equal
44:38
5 when you do that. And maybe even a little bit more
44:40
of that, you know, depending on the circumstances.
44:42
And so to me, I would just say to incorporate them, right?
44:46
Like even if it's worst case assumptions, OK, like I think
44:49
let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good, you know,
44:51
because we're in a circumstance now where these the costs are
44:55
going up. You know, the we do have an
44:58
imperative to enable speed to power.
45:00
And by virtue of not capturing at least some degree of this
45:04
information into these processes, there is inefficiency
45:08
that is ultimately cascading. And anything that we can do to
45:11
chip away at that cascade of inefficiency, all of it is good.
45:16
And we can't let the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
45:19
Well, with that, Michelle, thanks for all of the leadership
45:23
you've shown over the years. It's an extraordinary, you know,
45:27
just journey that you've had, but also just a lifetime of
45:30
impact. And so really appreciate your
45:32
wife, you know, doing all that sacrifice so that you could do
45:37
it and appreciate that you're now in another extraordinary job
45:42
that frankly, I think is going to be critical for us to be able
45:45
to unlock data center load growth and the safety that we
45:48
all want to see. And Vishal, we'll expect this to
45:51
be done in 15 months. That's right, the clock's
45:53
ticking, Michelle. I'm, I'm doing my best guys, you
45:56
know, all I can do is tell you that like, look, if I were asked
45:59
to be able to build a national intelligence layer for the
46:02
critical backbone of our increasingly AI powered economy,
46:05
that is something that can be done, you know, with the right
46:08
level of data and collaboration. So we're excited to go off and
46:12
tackle it and excited to make people more people aware of how
46:17
quickly and how cost effectively we can deliver that for
46:20
everybody. Amazing.
46:22
Thanks, Michelle. Well, that was fantastic, Arnab.
46:30
Like, obviously you and I, you know, work together on that
46:32
utility dive piece around getting more out of the grid
46:35
that we've already paid for and how we really put this playbook
46:38
in place for the governor's. Vishal didn't disappoint.
46:41
Like it was fascinating to learn about what he's doing, a line
46:45
vision, but also all of the stuff that he accomplished at
46:47
Walmart and some of his other jobs.
46:49
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it's
46:51
hard to disagree with anything he's doing it except saying
46:54
like, hey, let's do it faster. And I think there's some
46:58
consensus around what's going on, so we should go do it.
47:01
Well, it was funny, like I think they were like 7 ways that I was
47:05
trying to get him to like bad mouth the utilities and he
47:08
figured out a way to slip through all 7, you know, like I
47:12
mean, that's got to be a skill in and of itself.
47:15
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if he went
47:16
to Harvard Business School or Columbia Business School, but
47:19
wherever he went, they taught him that tactic and it worked
47:22
well for him. Well, look, I, I mean, I don't
47:27
envy him, but it's very obvious that I think, you know, nine
47:30
months in, he's really like put in a full court press.
47:33
It does feel like he has prepared the company now for
47:38
this moment. And I do think that with the
47:40
comments that Chris Wright recently made about
47:42
gradualization that we are in a place where all of these
47:46
solutions, these near term solutions that can be deployed
47:48
in 15 months. Let's hope if it's fifteen
47:50
months can be essential to us actually unlocking AI load
47:55
growth and figuring out how to finally get bills down.
47:59
Yeah. And I think for everyone who
48:01
sits there and says, like, oh, utility bills are going up,
48:05
there's actually, and then they'll like whisper like, oh,
48:07
well, there's not actually anything we can do about it in
48:09
the short term. It's like there is, we've
48:12
already built the infrastructure.
48:14
We just haven't figured out a way to use it yet.
48:17
And I think, you know, the, the challenge for us and all of our
48:20
listeners here is how do we get this in place over the next year
48:24
or two before, you know, the tsunami of demand and the price
48:28
increases occur. And we all, you know, suffer
48:31
from that. You know, this whole thing
48:32
reminds me of, do you remember when George W Bush was running
48:36
for president the first time around and he had that phrase
48:39
the bigotry of low expectations? I do like, I feel like this is
48:44
the bigotry of low expectations. We're just like, like there is
48:48
no way that the utilities succeeded this.
48:50
And so we're just like praying and hoping for incremental
48:53
improvement. But I don't know.
48:55
I think they're going to surprise to the upside.
48:57
So with that, thank you for joining us, our Knob.
49:01
It was great to have you and thanks everybody for joining us
49:06
here on the Energy Empire Podcast.
49:08
Please listen and provide a review.
49:12
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49:15
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49:18
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49:22
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49:25
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49:28
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