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What's the Real Problem with Alcoholism? · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Hey there, this is The Big Book Deep Dive with John and Eamon on Progress and Perfection. You can find more info at progressandperfection.com. All right.
• 0:10
  So yeah, so we are approaching, approaching the steps themselves. Getting there. We're inching closer to- We're approaching the steps themselves.
• 0:19
  But I think, like, as I've had a couple of weeks to reflect upon this section now, uh, due to the eight-car pileup last time- [laughs]... on Pellissippi Parkway that inhibited my ability to get here in a timely fashion.
• 0:32
  Thank you, I-40. Uh, so I th- you know, like, so what I think is fascinating about this, so there is a solution, and this goes back to, um,
• 0:45
  some of the stuff we talked about when we first sat down for the pilot that we did not record 'cause I kept making freaking noises all the time. Yeah. Oh, we recorded, we just never released it.
• 0:54
  Well, yeah, we didn't release it. [laughs] You guys are welcome. [laughs] Uh, but, but, like, so the implication of chapter two, the title of chapter two, that there is a solution, means that there is a problem. Yeah.
• 1:11
  And so I think, like, that's what I wanted to throw at you, is like, okay, what's the problem? What is the problem? Here's the solution. What's the problem?
• 1:25
  I, I think it goes back to, I think this was in what we read over the last few weeks, the seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. The problem is hopelessness. Mm-hmm. You know?
• 1:39
  It, we, we find a solution, and this is a topic for another day, why we were drinking to begin with, but part of the reason was, you know, I have this discontent, I have this unease.
• 1:51
  I'm not comfortable in my own skin, and so I find a solution because I don't like this state of being. Well, eventually that runs out, and it runs into a hopeless state of mind and body.
• 2:05
  I mean, that's out of the book somewhere. Yeah. Um, and so i- s- sort of what we talked about with some of the moral,
• 2:13
  uh, the moral dilemma stuff, where, you know, if, if you, if you don't have some sort of moral framework, how can you experience right and wrong? How can you- Yeah...
• 2:24
  you know, and you, you went all into that last- Oh, thank you... I think the last week or, or couple weeks, which was brilliant and true. Sure.
• 2:31
  Uh, but if, if you have some semblance of morals, we got problems at some point. Sure. So, so what you're saying then is that the alcohol is a symptom of the problem. Totally. What happens when alcohol is the problem?
• 2:49
  Take it away, right? Like, if alcohol- I don't know. You tell me... if, well, if alcohol is the problem- Mm-hmm... the absence of it sh- if you take it away, that should remove most of the issues. Mm-hmm.
• 3:03
  If, if it's not the problem, if it's a symptom, then it should agitate the issues. Mm-hmm. 'Cause for alcoholics- Mm-hmm... you know, we use it as a solution for some period of time, I believe- Sure...
• 3:15
  um, to other issues- Right... to other problems. Okay, so here's my question to you. What happens if there is no problem? What do you mean? If I can drink- Yeah... or if I drink,
• 3:33
  and I see no problem with what I'm doing- Yeah... do I have a problem? Well, depends on how many people around you you ask, I guess. Okay, right. Right? Are there r- Yes...
• 3:47
  are there negative ripple effects that are, you're being told about? Yes. Correct. And I think, like, that's one of the, like, when I think about this just from, like, a, a therapy point of view- Mm-hmm...
• 3:59
  like, the big kicker when you go to, um, talk to people about, like, it's called substance use disorder now, but, like, whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever, is, like, is, um,
• 4:14
  are there, are the consequences beginning to pile up that are outside of yourself? So is it beginning to interfere with your ability to have relationships with other people? Mm.
• 4:25
  To work, uh, to, uh, participate in vocation. Mm. Um, so yeah, right, like, uh, I think that's, that's kind of where my head goes to also is, like, sure, the person may not be willing to recognize
• 4:42
  that I have a problem with this, but there are a lot of, like, signs that are pointing to, like, yes, you have a problem.
• 4:53
  So if that's the case, if, if the person themselves does not have the ability yet to see that there is a problem, is this a solution for them? I think to an extent it can be.
• 5:07
  Like, there's a certain amount, and I was talking to somebody this week. Mm-hmm. There's a certain amount of forward progress you can make, I believe- Mm-hmm... by just going through motions. Mm-hmm.
• 5:19
  But, but I do believe it runs out. Like, a- at some point you gotta turn a page, hopefully sooner than later, to where, uh, willingness to take right action is supplanted with desire to do the right thing. Right. Right.
• 5:34
  Uh, but there's, there's some sort of runway, and I think it varies. Your mileage will vary from person to person- Mm-hmm... of, yeah, this book can be a solution
• 5:45
  probably temporarily to some, some issues f- or, or at least getting you in the right direction, even without you acknowledging the full extent or even the presence of, quote, "a problem." Yeah.
• 6:00
  Um- Yeah, and I think, I think I would agree with that, and we've touched on that before. Like- There can be external motivations that can lead to inward change. Mm-hmm.
• 6:11
  You know, if the screws get tight enough on the situation- Mm...
• 6:15
  outside of yourselves, the hope is that, yes, like leaning forward, beginning the process, going into the rooms, that at some point you begin to see yourself as worth the change- Mm... as worth changing for. Yeah. Right?
• 6:30
  So maybe the idea there is like, yeah, I may not recognize that I have a problem, or I may not be willing to, uh, admit that I have a problem.
• 6:39
  My wife may think so, my kids may think so, and maybe that's enough for me to take notice to get into the doors. I'm gonna do it for them. Yeah.
• 6:47
  Whether that's to get them off my back, whether it's truly to explore the issue, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and start this process. I'm gonna check the box, right? Um,
• 6:59
  and then I think that's where the hope that the magic actually occurs. Yeah. Right? So maybe you live in a, maybe you live in, like, a little bubble, and so, or, or your cohort drinks the same as you do.
• 7:14
  And so it's like, "Oh, my wife's just a witch. Like, she just won't get off my back. I don't have a problem. I drink as much as Jimmy and Joe and Timmy and Tom." Mm-hmm. Like, they don't have problems.
• 7:23
  Their wives are cool with it. Right? But then maybe you get into the rooms and you begin to hear the stories of other people, and it be- you know, and it starts to exact that change. It starts to hit home.
• 7:35
  The normalization of just how big of a problem this actually may be becomes a little bit more evident.
• 7:42
  Um, I think I've said before, but I, I, I know I've said outside of our conversations for sure, most of the time the thing that keeps people above water is affluence and intelligence. Mm-hmm. You know, smarts and money.
• 7:56
  You can insulate yourself and convince yourself that it's just not that big of a deal.
• 8:01
  Uh, and I think that's my hope, that as we walk through chapter two and sort of begin to explore this idea of a solution, um, that that begins to penetrate those boundaries, whether it is money, whether it is, uh, you know, my intelligence, my smarts, whether it's normalization of my problem with my cohort, um, that this stuff starts penetrating a little bit, uh, underneath the surface.
• 8:30
  I'll start. "We of Alcoholics Anonymous know thousands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill. Nearly all have recovered. They've solved the drink problem. We're average Americans.
• 8:44
  All sections of the country and many of its occupations are represented, as well as many political, economic, social, and religious backgrounds.
• 8:53
  We're people who would normally not mix, but there exists among us a fellowship, a friendliness, and an understanding which is indescribably wonderful.
• 9:03
  We're like the passengers of a great liner the moment after rescue from shipwreck, when camaraderie, joyousness, and democracy pervade the vessel from steerage to captain's table.
• 9:15
  Unlike the feelings of the ship's passengers, however, our joy and escape from disaster does not subside as we go our individual ways.
• 9:24
  The feeling of having shared in a common peril is one element in the powerful cement which binds us, but that in itself would never have held us together as we're now joined."
• 9:36
  Okay, so I think that's pretty cool there, that idea, uh, the feeling of having shared in a common peril is one element in the powerful cement which binds us.
• 9:47
  It's like the, um, it's the thing that transcends, just like it was describing there, whether it's race or, or socioeconomic status or, what did it say? Political, religious backgrounds.
• 9:59
  Um, it's sort of the thing that, that, that normalizes that great group of people that you find in AA rooms. You know, I think it's just fascinating because so many people's problem when they get into
• 10:13
  meetings for the first time is like, "I'm not like these people." Oh, yeah. Looking at the differences. Totally. You know- Yeah... looking at sort of these outward differences, the socioeconomic differences.
• 10:23
  Like, oh, well, I was never under a bridge. Y- you know, like, and they fail to see, like, the common element of, of what that problem is. And again, I guess that kind of, like, gets me thinking of, like,
• 10:37
  how important it is to recognize that there is a problem to the behavior. Well, and it speaks to the insidious nature of the disease. Yeah.
• 10:48
  That that's pretty much to a man and a woman the default set when we get to AA, is, "I am looking for why I'm not like you." Mm-hmm.
• 10:57
  Like e- even though I may be in pain, even though I may acknowledge the problem- Mm-hmm... I'm still, [chuckles] you know, I'm younger, I'm older, I'm this, I'm that. Mm-hmm.
• 11:07
  And the hope is, to your point at the start, for those that arrive in treatment, in, uh, AA, in therapy, whatever, in confrontation with a loved one, and they don't realize or don't want to acknowledge the problem- Mm...
• 11:24
  the hope is that they get around this enough for long enough- Mm-hmm... that, oh, uh, what he just said- Mm... yeah, the rest of it was BS, but I kinda relate to that. You know, that sounds like my drinking.
• 11:38
  That sounds like my frame of mind. Right. Right. Right. And you start picking up little pieces of similarities. Yeah. And I think, okay, so that's interesting. That's got me thinking, like, even beyond that.
• 11:50
  Like, [sighs] everybody loves a good war story. Mm. You know, you hear that all the time. Like, oh, freaking, you know- [clears throat]...
• 11:58
  just how explosive and detrimental their, their problematic behavior has been in their lives and the ramifications of it. Um, but it's got me thinking about what you said earlier. Like, if
• 12:12
  Drinking is not the problem, it's the experiences underneath the drinking. So it's underneath the surface.
• 12:17
  It's the experience of hopelessness, the experience of loneliness, the experience of isolation, the experiences of failure. Um, more the core issues. You know, and it makes me wonder, like,
• 12:33
  obviously there's a level of genuineness and authenticity and vulnerability that has to be present in order to tap into those, uh, more, more deep-rooted, under-the-surface, the true problems that exist. Mm.
• 12:52
  You know, and I guess I'm just thinking out loud for both you and I, for our edification when we're in meetings and when we're sharing with people, like, to focus on the alcohol,
• 13:01
  maybe that's not necessarily as much of the common element that we need to be focusing on. I understand that's what it's saying here, and I totally agree. Like- Yeah...
• 13:09
  it is the c- the, the surface, the visible, tangible, common element that everybody can grasp onto.
• 13:15
  But how much more significant is it when you're in those meetings, and when you hear someone share their story, and what they're talking about is, like, the brokenness, the hopelessness, the helplessness that they would feel
• 13:28
  that was, like... And, and the booze and the drugs are, are symptomatic of that problem. Yeah. You know? An, an, an ancillary level- Mm-hmm... the motivation for the drinking in a lot of cases. Yes.
• 13:41
  So where the, the drinking was, sure, the commonality, but it was that- Right... root cause that is even further deeper- Mm... commonality, I think. Yeah. The reasons behind the drink. Yeah.
• 13:53
  Yeah, and I think, like, here's my thing. I think we're onto it, and I think we're okay saying this, because as you and I well know, the steps don't even... What is it?
• 14:02
  The first step's the only one that talks about alcohol. Yeah, yeah. That's it. It's all about, all about the root of the issue. Yeah. You know?
• 14:08
  [clears throat] And so, like, what a, what a, um, what a tricky thing to do to call it Alcoholics Anonymous. [laughs] You know, because I think, like, uh, what we'll discover is, like, even, even these guys were aware
• 14:21
  that alcohol's not the problem. Yeah. Alcohol is the symptom of the problem, but alcohol's not the problem. Super... I, I don't know. I think that's pretty creative. I think that's cool. All right. Please.
• 14:35
  Well, and, [clears throat] and then further into the commonalities, this next paragraph. Mm-hmm. "The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we've discovered a common solution.
• 14:44
  We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is great news. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism." Yeah.
• 14:58
  Yeah. Uh, "We join in brotherly and harmonious action." So I think that's crucial also. It's a program of action. Right, right, but it's brotherly. Mm-hmm. Just that idea of brotherly.
• 15:14
  Uh, it's that, like, uh, I think they just talked about it in church this past Sunday, the, the philic, the philia type of love, the brotherly love. Yeah.
• 15:24
  Um, that there is this, like, uh, real powerful element of love that's involved, and, and harmony, you know, harmonious. Um,
• 15:34
  you know, when you think about harmony, everybody is in sync and everybody's working together, you know, in the actions that they're taking.
• 15:42
  And I think, like, dude, I think that's also sort of like a warning for people who, uh, if you are listening out there, that if you enter into a meeting and you don't experience that type of, like, brotherly love- Mm-hmm...
• 15:53
  or that type of harmonious sort of in-step action, uh, that may not be a healthy meeting. Yeah. That might be a toxic meeting. Yeah. Uh, and it might be one that's not focusing on the main thing- Yeah...
• 16:05
  that needs to be focused on. So, uh, yeah, I just, that, that, that idea of brotherly just really... When I... You know, we're both runners. I have the, the picture of just running with someone. Mm-hmm.
• 16:16
  You know, the, running something long together- Mm-hmm... you know, something hard. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and, and it- Mm...
• 16:22
  alludes to, like, soldiers and stuff elsewhere in this book, I think, but that idea of you're hand in hand or, or arm in arm- Mm-hmm... moving forward in parallel rather than, "Okay, get your butt up here." Exactly.
• 16:35
  Um- Exactly. You know, regardless of time. Yes. You know? There can be an old-timer in the meeting, and I still, not in every case, but in the healthy ones, to your point- Yes... it can be an in tandem type of- Yes...
• 16:48
  of experience. Yes. Of I'm right there with you. Sure, I've got more experience, more sober time. Right. Right. Um, but I, I think that's a, a unique, very healthy- Mm... healthy thing there. Yeah.
• 17:01
  It, uh, it's not a expert practitioner model- Yeah... or it should not be so. Yeah. And I think that's, should be true and should be experienced to a certain extent in the sponsor/sponsee relationship as well. Mm-hmm.
• 17:13
  If your sponsor thinks he knows everything, you should find another sponsor. Yeah. You know what I mean? If, if your sponsor's not willing to, to get on the same playing field and learn from you- Yeah.
• 17:24
  It's a two-way street... um, exactly. You know, I think that's, like, that's always my approach to, to my job as well, just to therapy, is like I don't want to be seen as this expert who knows everything.
• 17:34
  Like, I want to get into the trenches with you and learn from you. Mm-hmm. How can I help you if I don't know what your problem is?
• 17:41
  If I just enter th- this with this assumption of h- of, that I do know you and I do know your problem, well, that's gonna backfire on me, on me every single time. Mm-hmm.
• 17:50
  You know, and I think that just speaks to, like, everybody's, everybody's story just is, is, is unique. It's, I think that's why we read Bill's story. It's unique and it- Exactly... it deserves to be heard. Right.
• 18:05
  "An illness of this sort..." Uh, I gotta move my glasses. Without them I'm blind. I'm sorry.
• 18:11
  "An illness of this sort, and we have come to believe it an illness- Involves those about us in a way no other human sickness can. If a person has cancer, all are sorry for him, and no one is angry or hurt.
• 18:25
  But not so with the alcoholic illness, for with it there goes annihilation of all the things worthwhile in life. It engulfs all whose lives touch the sufferer's.
• 18:35
  It brings misunderstanding, fierce resentment, financial insecurity, disgusted friends and employers, warped lives of blameless children, sad wives and parents. Anyone can increase the list.
• 18:49
  We hope this volume will inform and comfort those who are or who may be affected. There are many. I think that, um, [ts] you know, it, it, it's again, it's this acknowledgement of, of like
• 19:04
  this thing being something more than just a moral touchpoint, that there is this illness part that I think is relevant that, that plenty of people fail to see. Back to the, the doctor's opinion- Mm-hmm...
• 19:18
  the two-prong- Mm-hmm... mental obsession plus the physical allergy. Mm-hmm. His words. Right. Allergy part. Right. But that there is illness- Mm-hmm... going on here.
• 19:29
  And, like, medically, is this still considered- Mm-hmm... classified a disease, right? Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and, and I think, I just love the, you know,
• 19:40
  even the comparison to cancer here, I, I, I think is cool because they do s- they're showing you how it metastasizes- Mm-hmm... and it grows, and it begun- like that word engulfs- Mm-hmm...
• 19:50
  all whose lives, uh, touch the sufferer's. You know, it is this cancer, this illness that just continues to metastasize and grow, uh, and, and no one is immune. Mm-hmm.
• 20:01
  You know, it's not just the person who, who has the disorder that's suffering. It's, it's all those that are in the tangled web as well. K- I mean, I've, I mean, I've had countless people that I've steered them to.
• 20:13
  They don't have problems, their loved ones, but I've, I've encouraged them to read the Big Book so that they can really begin to grasp, um, what it is that the person is going through. Mm-hmm.
• 20:24
  Highly competent psychiatrists who have dealt with us have found it sometimes impossible to persuade an alcoholic to discuss his situation without reserve.
• 20:32
  Strangely enough, wives, parents, and intimate friends usually find us even more unapproachable than do the psychiatrist and the doctor.
• 20:41
  But the ex pr- but the ex-problem drinker who has found the solution, who is properly armed with facts about himself, can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic in a few hours.
• 20:54
  Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished. Okay, tell me about that. Tell me more about that. Reflect on that. So it's, you know, it's, it's happened to me
• 21:07
  countless times probably where I'm talking with a newcomer, somebody fresh or relatively fresh, and there is almost, I wa- I don't want to say instantaneously. Sometimes that's the case.
• 21:21
  It depends on the purpos- uh, the person. But almost without fail, there is a connection, an honest connection between the two of us, seemingly solely because of our shared drinking experience.
• 21:37
  And the fact, I think this is an important note- Mm-hmm... this honest, armed with an honest, uh, where did it go? Armed with facts about himself. So I am,
• 21:49
  after some amount of work, I become armed with facts about myself. I'm not- Tell me about that... just haphazardly sober. Yeah, tell me about that. Um- What are, what is that? What does that mean?
• 21:58
  I, I think that's a, a maturity that happens, uh, might m- may be a wrong word, but a, a growing up in sobriety of working through this particular book with a trusted confidant, a sponsor figure, a mentor figure.
• 22:15
  Use your own favorite term. But a, a, a, a pressed desire and concerted effort towards, uh, seeking the solution to the problem, and further, an admission that I can't solve my own problem, right?
• 22:32
  Like, the whole premise of all this is gonna be pointed pointedly back to God every time. Like- Mm-hmm... the alcoholic cannot solve his own problem. Mm-hmm. You can't solve my problem.
• 22:44
  I can't solve you- we can point each other, sharpen each other into the right direction towards God. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, but ultimately, like, that's, that's the solution.
• 22:55
  And so what has happened is when I become armed with that fact and I realize how severe the problem really is and really take a first step of I, "I can't," like, "solve this. I'm screwed."
• 23:09
  Uh, you know, I'm powerless over the substance, sure. But further, this hopeless state of mind and body- Mm-hmm... this, this, uh, unmanageable life that, uh, has come around it,
• 23:21
  then I can start stepping into the solution. And it's in doing that, I think that we get these facts about ourselves that we can start giving back, looking back to- Mm-hmm... the next person who's at the start line.
• 23:34
  Mm-hmm. That's not very far behind us- Mm-hmm... either. Like, that, that shouldn't, it shouldn't take a year to get to [laughs] you know, we should be doing that quickly. Right.
• 23:43
  We should be, how s- how quick do you want to get better we've said before. Right. Um, and, and so
• 23:51
  kind of the magic that happens, back to the original question here, is that you coming into a meeting after going to countless doctors and family members and church counselors and- Mm-hmm...
• 24:05
  uh, people that you just haven't been willing to get honest with- Right... there's something disarming about talking to another alcoholic who has gone that path before you.
• 24:17
  Now, you have to buy into You, you can't believe I'm full of crap- Right... for that to be the case. Right. Right. But it's a l- it becomes, and it has become in most conversations, real easy to make that,
• 24:30
  uh, otherwise tenuous connection- Sure... with a fellow sufferer. So, yeah, so talk more about that. How do you create that safety? It, I, I always start with my story, and so i- it's...
• 24:47
  I've gotten away from this maybe to an uncomfortable degree, but, but I like to be grounded in I and not you. You know, especially for talking to a newcomer. It should be, what's my experience?
• 25:00
  Here, let me share my story, and hopefully they're in a frame of mind to where they can relate to the parallels and not just look for the differences. Um, but, but I think that's a unique
• 25:14
  aspect of AA, and it's, it's what we say in a lot of meetings at the start of meetings. We share our own experience, strength, and hope with the newcomer, with the alcoholic, trying to carry the message on. Yeah.
• 25:26
  And the message is not, "You need to do this." Right. "Shape up, John." Right. "Stop drinking." Right. You know, the finger-pointing mentality. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's, "Man, I know how you feel.
• 25:36
  This is what happened to me." Right. "This is what got me here. This is what I did to start changing even when I didn't think it would work necessarily." Right. "But lo and behold, and then here's what it's like now."
• 25:50
  Right. You know, "I've found the solution that really works." And, and perhaps it's for the first time in a long time the, that person is being talked with instead of talked to, talked down at. Yeah. Yeah.
• 26:06
  Um, and, and that usually... I mean, that makes the difference, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause they... People don't come in to AA just on a winning streak, right? [laughs] Right. It's like [laughs] Right. Right.
• 26:17
  Um, they, they've been through the- Mm... everybody telling them how to live, what to do, stop doing this. Right. And, you know, we make suggestions, but- Mm... part of the open door kinda deal there, it's like we...
• 26:30
  If, if you want what we have, you, you can do it, too. Mm. And here's, here's how. Here's what we did. Mm-hmm. But we're not gonna twist your arm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're, I think you're right.
• 26:40
  I'll, I, I appreciate that. Um, you know, it's part of the reason why it, it, it's the same philosophy. Like, if you wanna be an effective
• 26:55
  substance abuse counselor, you typically had to have been affected by substance abuse. Mm. Because the other guy's not gonna... He's gonna call bullshit. Yeah.
• 27:05
  'Cause he's gonna know that you have no idea what you're talking about. Not from a clinical book, a textbook point of view. Mm-hmm. Sure, you may know all of that stuff. Mm. But do you know what I'm talking about?
• 27:16
  You know, do you know what it's like to just be hooked to the gills to a substance and not be able to escape that? Do you know what that's like?
• 27:24
  And the person who doesn't know what that's like is forced to say, "I don't know what that's like." Then how the [censored] can you help me? Mm. How are you gonna help me when you don't know how I feel? Right.
• 27:34
  And so what you're talking about there is just this experience of empathy, this, this transference of empathy. Not sympathy, not feeling bad for the person, but feeling- Mm... with the person. Yeah. You know?
• 27:45
  And how do you go about communicating that empathy? By talking about your experience. Not talking about yourself, but talking about your experience. "Man, I totally get it.
• 27:56
  I can remember this time X, Y, and Z occurred," and, like, I just c- You know what I mean? Like, whatever that, whatever that may be. And I think, like,
• 28:05
  you know, our ability when we think about helping people and offering the solution to people, our ability to be just, like, genuine and vulnerable has everything to do with fostering an environment of safety enough such that the person, one, will listen to what we have to say,
• 28:24
  but also receive it and accept it because they experience this idea of l- it's been co-opted out there, but, like, this idea of me too. Mm. Like, I've been there. I, I know that feeling, right?
• 28:37
  And I, I, I think that's probably why w- like, when we have a newcomer and you have a first-timers meeting, that's what we talk about. You know? And it's amazing.
• 28:47
  You've had this experience, too, but after the meeting, that newcomer identifies not everybody- Mm... a few people 'cause he's like, "Whoa." Yeah. "That guy knows what I'm talking about. He's been there."
• 28:59
  And it's not to discount the other guy's story because everybody's story is gonna be valuable, well, not necessarily for everybody, but for somebody. You know?
• 29:07
  But it's the coolest thing ever when you do get to experience that. You know? And it just resonates, and suddenly you get to, um, the camaraderie, the brotherly piece.
• 29:16
  You know, it comes into play and it's like, "Man, this guy totally gets me." You know, he doesn't even know anything about me 'cause I haven't even told him anything about me. All he's done is talk about him.
• 29:28
  I was gonna say, all I did was show up and say, "Hey, I'm new." [laughs] Right. Right. But suddenly, like- How did this happen?... suddenly he gets me. Yeah. You know? And how does that happen?
• 29:37
  Through the sharing of our story, being genuine enough to share our story, vulnerable enough to share our story,
• 29:43
  confident enough, armed w- like you were saying, armed with those facts about ourselves, understanding, like, our strengths, but also understanding our flaws and being willing to, like, come to the people who need it with those things.
• 29:56
  It is interesting that, you know, the last sentence there, "Until such an understanding- Mm... is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished." Yeah. Glad you brought that up.
• 30:03
  Like, that's, that's kinda unique medically I would think. Mm-hmm. You know, you go to a doctor, I don't care if my doctor's had whatever sickness I'm coming in there with. Right. Just give me the solution. Right.
• 30:13
  But when it comes to this, it's a completely different ballgame. Mm. May still be a disease, but there's this component to it to where I as the sufferer really do need that. To latch onto and accept the solution. Yeah.
• 30:28
  The solution could be free- Yeah... but I'm not gonna take it unless I've got that- Right... that to relate to. Right, right. Yeah. Um, Antabuse, popular drug that makes people puke when they drink. Yeah.
• 30:39
  So if, uh, if, if I think that my problem is alcohol, I can go to the doctor- Mm-hmm... and he can give me Antabuse, and my wife can make sure that I take it every day. And suddenly, if that's my problem,
• 30:56
  why don't I feel better after two, three months? Because that wasn't my problem. [laughs] Something deeper. [laughs] Right. Because, like, that wasn't my problem. Uh, so yeah, I, I think you're right.
• 31:09
  Like, that's a, that's a great, that's a great sentence, and I'm glad you highlighted it. "Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished." All right. You want me to go? Yeah.
• 31:23
  "That the man who is making the approach has had the same difficulty, that he obviously knows what he's talking about, that his whole deportment shouts at the new prospect that he is a man with a real answer, that he has no attitude of holier than thou, nothing whatever except the sincere desire to be helpful- Hmm...
• 31:41
  that there are no dues, or that there are no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to please, no lectures to be endured. These are the conditions we found most effective." Hmm.
• 31:52
  "After such an approach, many take up their beds and walk again." So yeah, the, everything we just said. "None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did.
• 32:07
  We feel that the elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes- Hmm... occupations, and affairs.
• 32:21
  All of us spent much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work." Hmm. "If we keep on,
• 32:37
  if we keep on the way we're going, there's little doubt that much good will result, but the surface of the problem would hardly be scratched.
• 32:45
  Those of us who live in large cities are overcome by the reflection that c- close by, hundreds are dropping into oblivion every day. Many could recover if they had the opportunity we have enjoyed.
• 32:58
  How then shall we present what has been so freely given us? We've concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to the task our combined experience and knowledge.
• 33:12
  This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem." Hmm. That first paragraph you read, it's almost like a rebuke of the...
• 33:23
  [laughs] In a way it's like a, it reads as a rebuke of the church. Hmm. [laughs] Tell me more. I don't know, just that the- Just looking at the, the stop drinking- Uh... as the problem?
• 33:35
  Well, yeah, that he has no attitude of holier than thou. Hmm. Nothing whatever except the sincere desire to be helpful. Hmm. No fees to pay. Typically something that you hear- Yeah, yeah...
• 33:46
  in the church world or something I guess all those you can latch onto the church, yeah. Yeah, no axes to grind.
• 33:49
  Like, that guy's just in it 'cause he's to- [laughs] You know, uh, no people to please, so no, no like fakeness of smiling. Mm-hmm. Like, "Oh, weren't you fun? Oh, weren't you fun?"
• 33:58
  [laughs] Lectures to be endured that, like, hearkens to the feeling of a, of a sermon- Yep... uh, for a lot of people. These are conditions we have found, uh, most effective. So yeah, I think, I don't know.
• 34:09
  That's interesting. Yeah. I'd never connected that directly before. Yeah. But that's so true. Yeah. Well, and I think what's, what's also fascinating there though is there, then there's a direct reference.
• 34:18
  It's like a hoodwink again. There's a direct reference to a script- scriptural principle there. After such an approach, many- Yeah... take up their beds and walk again. [laughs] You know?
• 34:29
  So it, it's like this creative little dichotomy, this little twist. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I think, like, the other thing that, that stood out here, let me see. I'm gonna scribe, "A few fortunate enough to be so situated."
• 34:41
  Let's see. "All of us spend much of our time, spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so situated that they can give nearly all of their time to the work."
• 34:53
  Oh, no, no, no, right above that. I'm sorry. Sorry, guys. "A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations, and affairs." Yeah. Um,
• 35:04
  something about that, that idea of it lies before us just kind of like speaks to me.
• 35:10
  You know, this idea of, of first things, you know, that are just kind of like right before us, and they always have been, and they'll, and they always will be. And the things that we need to be attending to
• 35:20
  are, like, right there for us to attend to. But we've been so blinded by what we think are the first things. If I can just do this first, or if I can just do that first.
• 35:30
  Um- Well, and putting the focus, too, in early sobriety- Mm-hmm... back on the fact, especially if you have a wife, children, house, like, you know, if, if you've got a full life,
• 35:42
  in disrepair though it may be, like, you can't really go hide out in meetings 24/7. That's right. Like, life is back. We're going to the meetings to get adjusted so that we can live our lives. Right.
• 35:54
  I mean, you've been big on that in past discussions. Mm-hmm. Um, it's like it doesn't really look like sobriety, some of the, the people touting long-term sober time- Mm-hmm... and their lives are falling apart.
• 36:07
  [laughs] Right. And then, you know- Right... it's like- Right... we feel that the elimination of our drinking- Mm... is but a beginning. Right. Like, that's just the, that's the start line. Right.
• 36:15
  And then from there on, it should be a given. Right. It's, it's the, the living part- Mm... it's the hard part. Mm-hmm.
• 36:21
  It's, it's the getting adjusted to, okay, what, what does it mean to be a man of God, a, a husband, a spouse, a loving participant in- Mm-hmm... in this shared life, et cetera. Right. Right.
• 36:35
  Yeah, and so, like, that's interesting. So, like, these things that should be, that lie before us that we should be attending ourselves to, [sighs]
• 36:44
  goes back to an early conversation like we've had, like, are we afraid to attend to those things? Mm. And so, you know, we're not going to acknowledge our fear.
• 36:52
  We're going to distract ourselves from the fear we have of attending to these things, because we're fe- fear failure, we fear not being good enough, we fear, like, being insecure, being found out as insecure or inferior.
• 37:05
  So I'm not gonna in- I'm not gonna, like, I'm not going to, to face this fear. Instead, I'm going to go over here and drink and distract myself with drink, right?
• 37:14
  And so then all of a sudden, I mean, how many times have you seen that? You get somebody with sober time, and they're forced to face their fears.
• 37:22
  They live insularly lives in treatment for 30, 60, 90 days, but suddenly they go back and they're forced to attend to these things that have just been, like, neglected for so long because they're so afraid to do it, and what do they do?
• 37:34
  I'm going back to the bottle, Jack. Paralysis and then flee. Right. I'm going back to the bottle, right? So, like, yeah, I think that's, um...
• 37:43
  It just speaks again, though, to just the idea that, like, man, alcohol is not the problem.
• 37:51
  Alcohol is a symptom of a bigger problem, whatever it is that's down there underneath that needs to be seen or discovered or addressed or found out. That's what the problem is.
• 38:03
  You know, that's, that's, to me, that's what the issue is. Okay, touch on this real quick, and then I think we'll probably have to wrap up. Yeah. Yeah, touch on, um, this part. Then how, how then shall we present
• 38:16
  that which has been so freely given us? We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring the test of combined experience and knowledge.
• 38:24
  This should suggest a youth, a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem. Weigh in on that. I'm just thinking back to when this was published, '39. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 38:36
  The freedom that you and I have to hop on our iPhone or app and say, "Oh, where's a meeting?" Hey, don't call me an iPhone user. [laughs] I just thought about that. I'm Android all day. #Android. [laughs] #Rebel.
• 38:49
  But to hop on our apps and go, "Man, I need a meeting. Oh, there's one- Yeah... three miles away in- Yeah... 45 minutes. Right. Like, that was nowhere near the case here. So, and a lot of- Yeah...
• 39:01
  this is a description of the hope that Bill and the authors had of what this fellowship could and should be for the alcoholic anywhere, and really, that's come to fruition. Yeah. Now, it's different than- It really is...
• 39:15
  in a lot of ways, but, but in terms of the accepted-ness of it and just the widespread availability, it's everywhere, dude. Yeah, yeah. Um, so- Virtual meetings. The what? Virtual meetings. Yeah, virtual.
• 39:29
  I mean- I got guys that hop on-... they're literally everywhere... meetings over in Dublin. That's right. [laughs] Like, I'm dead serious. They go in Dublin. Yeah.
• 39:35
  A lot of times, I'll tell people to, like, "Well, if you wanna have a lot of fun- Yeah... find a virtual meeting in New York City. Oh, man. 'Cause they don't care. Like, they, they are just ruthless.
• 39:44
  But, like, it's, it... There's so many opportunities, to your point- Yeah... um, to really tap into it, and I do. I think it speaks to the successfulness of the, of the original idea. Yeah.
• 39:55
  But then, you know, the last little bit there- Mm-hmm... that you asked about, you know, how are we gonna spread this? Well, you write a book, and th- they didn't have the internet, they didn't have anything.
• 40:04
  We, we wanna spread this, so we start meetings up, we share one on one, we go to hospitals, and heck, let's write a book. Right. And I've mentioned before, you know, they wanted to make a little money off of it, too.
• 40:15
  Mm-hmm. So you could make money off of books back then. Sure. That was part of the motivation, but- Mm-hmm... but no, they, they found this framework, and let's write it down and pass it on. Right.
• 40:26
  Like, in its most rudimentary form- Mm-hmm... and it's pretty much stayed that way since. Right. I mean, the first 164 of the program that we're going through has stayed that way. Right.
• 40:35
  A word change here and there is, uh... Um, and, and I think, I think there's strength in that. Yes. You know, you look at the, the Holy Scripture, like- Right... same deal. Right. Most [laughs]
• 40:45
  you know, bestseller of all time. It continues to get handed down and, you know, translated and whatever, but- Right... you don't, don't change a good thing, right? Right. The source material.
• 40:57
  Yeah, and I think it just, again, speaks to the value of the book. Yes. The book itself. I mean, there's so many, "I don't wanna read. Oh, it's too much to read. This, that, blah, blah, blah, blah." No, read the book.
• 41:08
  I think that's why we're doing what we're doing- Yeah... is to just, like, spread the word to, like, the effectiveness of the book. Yeah. The book.
• 41:17
  You know, you can't just go to a meeting and listen to the meeting and sit with your sponsor and get a worksheet on the steps and think you've, like, worked- Yeah...
• 41:27
  through Alcoholics, the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. You missed the most important part, and that's the book. This is the program. Correct. Right. Like, and, and we've been in meetings that have discussed that.
• 41:39
  You know- Mm-hmm... go to a meeting, that's, that's great. Like, that's a vital part of the deal for many, many people. Mm-hmm. But that's the fellowship. Mm-hmm. Like, that's the melting pot.
• 41:50
  That's where you can start- Right... passing the message on, where you can give and get hope, but it's not the, the program. Right. It's, it's a piece of it. Right. This lays out- Right...
• 41:59
  the principles and the action steps of actually doing the program- Mm-hmm... of AA. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, it's what I love about it, coming from a Christian upbringing. Mm-hmm.
• 42:09
  Like, you know, we, we had stuff and questions and, uh, but, but there was not as clear-cut, like, here is what you do. Right. And, you know, that speaks maybe to discipleship- Mm-hmm...
• 42:23
  the state of discipleship, 'cause it, it should be that way- Mm-hmm... of taking people under their wing, and here's- Mm-hmm... here's how we live as men of God. Mm-hmm.
• 42:30
  Well, this, this is, this book is what that solution is for the alcoholic. This, this is quite simply how we got sober and how you can, too. Dude, whatever.
• 42:39
  Don't tiptoe around that, because this is also how you live as a man of God. Yeah. Both/and, right? 100%. Yeah. Like, for me, this is how I figured out how to live as a man of God. Yeah. Then I found the Bible. Yeah.
• 42:55
  It's not to say that this was first. This led me to the Lord. Yeah. The Lord's word was like, it's all over this, and I couldn't ignore it. Yeah. You know? And it made me curious, and, and, like,
• 43:08
  that's what I found out, was to your point, and it's like a both/and type of thing. You know, and for people who suffer from, from alcohol and from, from drug addiction,
• 43:19
  like, yeah, this helps us, to your point, like, this helps us live out what it means to be a man of the Lord. This is like a modern-day movie preview. Yeah. You get it- Mm-hmm...
• 43:31
  and you see the whole movie, but then you go and realize, oh, there's a two-hour version of this- Right... when you go back and get back into the scripture. Right, right.
• 43:39
  Well, it's, yeah, it's like, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's like, uh, watching Lord of the Rings and then going, "Oh, there's a book?" [laughs] You know, and then you get into the richness and- Yeah... the depth of the book.
• 43:51
  Yes. So yeah, that's good. That's good. All right, well, it's good to be back. Good to be back. We'll stop there. All right. We'll be back, page 19, next week. Sounds good. See ya.
• 44:02
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• 44:03
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• 44:15
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