Latest / The Bechdel Cast / Breakfast at Tiffany's with Gabe Dunn

Transcript

Breakfast at Tiffany's with Gabe Dunn · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephim vast
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Jamie Loftus and.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: My name's Caitlin Derante.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: And before we get our episodes started today, we wanted
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: to welcome all our new listeners. This is our first
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: episode on the How Stuff Works Network. We are so
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: thrilled to be here. Yes, so if this is your
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: first time listening to our podcast, we'll just give you
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: a quick explainer on what we do here.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: That's right, So we again are the Bechdel Cast. We
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: talk about the portrayal and representation of women in movies
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: through an intersectional feminist lens.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Every Thursday, we bring in a special guest who brings
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: in one of their favorite movies, a movie that's really
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: affected them, and we tear it apart based on the
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: way that it treats women in that movie. Sometimes it
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: does really well, times not so nice.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Hollywood kind of has a long history of not
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: representing women well at all what Yeah, hard to believe.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Hot take.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: That's why we're here. We use the Bechdel test as
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: a sort of jumping off point to initiate this larger
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: conversation about representation of women.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: What on earth is the Bechdel Test? Kaitlin?
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: Why, Jamie? I'd be happy to tell you, Okay. It
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: is a test that originated from cartoonist Alison Bechdel in
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties. It requires that a movie has at
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: least two women in it who have names check. They
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: have to speak to each other eick, and that conversation
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: cannot be about a man.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Oh at all? Word?
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Shall we demo it?
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: I'd love to.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Let's demo it for the people? Okay, begin test. Hi, Caitlin,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Hey Jamie, did you know that this is our first
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: episode on the House Stuff Works Network?
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: I did know that, Oh my god.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: But like for people who are like new to the podcast,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: like what should listened to? Are there other episodes?
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: There are because we've operated independently up until now. Good
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: for us, I know we're such strong independent women.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Queen go off.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: We have over eighty episodes backlogged of a ton of
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: different movies, so check those out. Chances are we've covered
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: one of your favorites.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got a lot of hot, spicy backlog with
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: some hot spicy discourse. We've covered Star Wars, We've.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: Covered Black Panther, We've covered Jili for some reason, we
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: covered Gilie.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: We sure did. Uh So, did that conversation pass the
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Vitels test?
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: Well, except for Gelie because Julie is a man, but
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: up until Larry and Icon, yeah, grows up until the
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: very end of that conversation, I would say we've passed
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: with flying colors.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Good for us, I know.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: And so toward the end of every episode, after our discussion,
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: after our heavy but also fun discourse.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's heavy, sometimes it's light.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we will determine whether or not the movie passes
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: the Bechdel test, and we will rate the movie on
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: our special rating system, which we will get to. But yeah,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: other than that, we're so happy to be here on
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: how stuff works. We're happy you're joining us. And today's episode,
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: we are talking about breakfast of Tiffany's. Yes, and we
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: have a wonderful guest, so let's introduce her.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: She is the host of Bad with Money podcast and
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: she is the writer of I hate everyone, but you
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: Gaby done. Hi, Hi, thanks for being here.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: Oh, thanks for having me. We're going older than we
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: usually go today.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: We haven't done a lot of movies before nineteen eighty.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I would say, agree, yeah, but this is a big one.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: This is a classic.
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: Yes, I did notice that you guys don't do a
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: lot of very old movies, which is why I suggested
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: this one.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: I think probably one of the reasons we tend to
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: steer more toward modern and contemporary movies is that our
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: conversations are about how we influence media. Media influences us.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: So today's world, not as many people are watching the
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: older movies anymore.
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: Maybe I don't know my grandmother. I'm a turner classic movies.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: I used to be a TCM right addict.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Kim, it's really good.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: But like, especially like with today's younger generation, who are
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: the most easily influenced, they're watching you know, Marvel stuff
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: like what's in theaters right now, and they're not a
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: lot of them unless they're like film buffs, aren't necessarily
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: going back to older movie.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: Pretentious I mean. But also the thing is with this
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: one is that like young women have this aesthetic about it,
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: and they also like, have you know the poster of
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: Audrey Hepburn, and like they're aware of this as like
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: a classic that keeps keeps coming back kind of as
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: like a cool thing, right without possibly even understanding the
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: movie or having seen the movie.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: I hope that we do more old movies. It's it's
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: for me. I just sort of assume that anything before
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, even though I've seen a lot of them,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: but like a lot of pre nineteen eighty is just
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: straight up a wat where you're just like, yeah, that's
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: not gonna do well. That's not gonna do well. And
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: most movies after nineteen eighty and also most movies that
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: come out now, but yes, in particular before that.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: But sometimes they're really sneaky feminist. Yeah, like they get
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: away with a lot of stuff. Like I was just saying,
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: I love the movie Gentlemen before Blondes, and that is
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: like very they get away with so many things, like
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Marilyn Monroe's characters they're both like so overtly sexual and
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: it's just like completely fine. So I think there's like
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: a lot of stuff that I don't know. It's not
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: all like oh this is terrible and Women Suck and
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: there were a lot of really great like leading parts. Yeah,
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: women back, And I don't know where we steered wrong, but.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say it's probably the well, this movie
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: came out in nineteen sixty one while the production Code
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: was still in full effect, so I would hazard to guess.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: And I don't know a whole ton about this, but
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: the production code was an effect between nineteen thirty four
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: and I think nineteen sixty eight or nine, and this
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: was like all the censorship of like you could, like
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: there was no overt sexuality, you couldn't swear, there couldn't
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: be graphic violence, there couldn't be snaky. Yeah, there's like
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: tons of innuendos, and that gave birth to things like
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: screwball comedy and like a whole bunch of other things.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: But like, yeah, because of the production Code and all
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: the censorship that came with that, I think reinforced more
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: like rigid gender roles. But they have think.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: They I think like limitations made people a little more
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: I don't know them, made them a little more creative
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: about rather than just going for like the eases.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: In some movies.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I.
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: Just am always shocked by how overtly sexual. They're like
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: allowed to be with these kind of innuendos or like
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: having to write around these sort of things. Like I
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: was saying to Jamie too before this that I read
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: that they had the Paul character. They added more sexual
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: stuff for him in the script so that the sensors
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: would go after him and censor more of his things
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: and leave Holly golightly alone. Yeah, which is smart, Which
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: is like an interesting trick.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: That's a cool misdirect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I Well, let's
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: talk about your history with the movie. When did you
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: first see the movie? And like, what is your history
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: with that up till now?
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: When I was in high school, I was like a
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: very pretentious asshole, and so I was kind of doing
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: this thing where I was like I like old music,
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: I like old movies. I'm wearing silk gloves to prom
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: whatever that kind of girl, And so I would start
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: watching these old movies because I just I don't know,
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: I was trying to be like a person who knew
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: about things that other kids at school didn't know about,
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: which you know, people loved obviously, like Super wanted to
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: be friends with me, and so like I took a
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: lot of pride in being like I know about all
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: this media that you don't even know about. So I
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: think I watched it just because I had seen all
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: these photos and I knew about like the picture of
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: her with the with the tiara andy, but I had
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: no idea what it was about. So I watched it
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: in high school because I watched a lot of like
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: Elvis Beach movies. I watched Hard Day's Night all the time.
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: I liked Marilyn Monroe's stuff.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: This was like your era that you that you into,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: like got in late fifties early sixtiest.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: Like got into it. And then when I watched it,
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: I was like, wait a minute, they're both sex workers.
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: Like this is crazy, Like I this movie that is
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: built up as being this classy kind of like beautiful
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: thing that like an Audrey Hepburn especially who's viewed as
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: kind of like untouchable and like a porcelain doll.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Right, And it's like not explicitly stated in either in
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: the story or the movie, but it's so Like Truman Capoti,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: I liked this phrase a lot when he was asked
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: if like A Letley was a sex worker, like years later,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: he's like, I like to think of her as an
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: American geisha. Yeah, okay, okay, so you're saying it, but
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: you're not going to say, Hey, they.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: Would in the in the press for the film at
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: the time, they were saying she was a party girl
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: or that she They also used the word cook a lot.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: They were like, she's an eccentric kuk right, And it's like.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is some really wild codd language we're pulling out.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: But it's like, no one will actually say it, but
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: it is clearly what's you know.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's it's not subtle. I mean he
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: gives her money for the quote unquote powder room, the
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: interior decorator quote unquote leaves Paul three hundred dollars like
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: on the nightstand. Like it's not subtle at all. So
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: then I was like, oh my god, this is the
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: same movie that people lawed as this classy sort of
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: thing that like women you know, dress up for as
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: Halloween like in you know what I mean. I put
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: the poster in their dorm and I was like, does
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: anybody else understand what this movie is about? And then
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: I loved it because I always loved sort of subversive stuff.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: So I was like, this is great, and then I
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: would watch it every so often as like a you know,
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: to fall asleep, as like a soothing because now it's
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: kind of like this comfort movie, which a lot of
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: Audrey Hepburn's stuff is for me. Yeah, like just very comforting.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: So it's been with you for a long time. Yeah, yeah,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: it's sort of similarly. I had the poster before I
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: saw the movie. Yeah, I had the poster hanging in
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: my room. I think my mom gave it to me,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: and I had it for like a full year before
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yeah, I should probably watch this
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: because I love old movies. My era was I was
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: like wartime MGM movies. Okay, I had a stack of
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: tapes and like DVDs full of TCM Judy Garland movies,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: like every Judy. I was a full on Judy person,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: which is also one of the many reasons it's so
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: painful to watch Mickey Rooney in this movie, because he's
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: in all the Judy Garland movies. But so I finally
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: got around do watching Breakfast at Tiffany's and then read
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: the book as well, and I really really really loved
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Truman Capoti, who did not like this movie. But I
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: think it's really nice. There was so much I haven't
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: seen it in at least two or three years. Like
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: it's sort of the thing that whenever it's on Netflix,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, this is a good background thing, but
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I totally forgot about some of the very like moving,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: sad things that happened in this movie. It's and I
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: think that that's true. There's just like this weird dissonance
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: with this movie where you remember what Audrey Hepburn looks like,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: you remember sort of how she behave. Do you remember
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: that there's parties, and you remember there's a kiss in
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: the rain at the end and everything else. It's you're
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: sort of just like, oh, yeah, she's arrested. There's a
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: character named Sally Tomato.
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: There's like brother does I totally forgot her brother died? Yeah,
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: It's like an incredibly sad movie. And then it's recreated,
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: like I keep thinking of the scene of Gossip Girl
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: where they recreate it and Leeton Mester is her, and
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: then it's just played us this very romantic thing, right,
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: and people like don't know what the movie is about,
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: which I can see why Truman Capote would freaking hate that.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: He hated well, we'll get into this in a bit,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: but there's like the context that he wrote this story,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: and also that in the short story, Paul is coded gay,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: which obviously they completely scrap in this movie. But there's
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: you know, there's just like a lot of interesting stuff.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: But yeah, this movie was with me since I think
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: high school as well. I have a really embarrassing MySpace
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: profile pick with the poster in the background and it's
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: black and white and it's really horrible. No, it's really bad,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: but I don't know. And then watching it this time,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: I don't dislike this movie. I still I still enjoyed it,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: but there's just like a lot that stuck out to
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: me and just stuff I'd forgotten. Yeah, what about you.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: I saw it for the first time in college during
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: that period of time because I was not to brag,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: but I was majoring in film, so I was trying
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: to watch as many movies as I could, so I
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: would sometimes watch like two or three movies a day,
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: and then like from that period of time, my brain
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: didn't store anything about the story or like any of
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: important things about the movie. The only thing I would
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: remember about the movies I watched back then is whether
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: or not I liked them, and what I remembered about
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Breakfast at Tiffany's is a very visceral hatred.
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: For this movie.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I hate this movie.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: You hated it the first time you saw it, so yes,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: oh wow, and you hate it now.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: I hate it this movie.
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: Were you really left to have me on because of that?
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: No?
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: We like because it's fun.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: I think it's fun a lot of times.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we love talking about movies that we hate and
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: more fun.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: I think we do our best, at least to try
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: to not let our personal feelings about the movie influence
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: our critical analysis of the portrayal of women in the movie. Okay,
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: So I do my best to keep that separate.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Anytime it's an old movie, Caitlin hates it. Anytime it's
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: a movie with aliens, I hate it. We all do our,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: don't get me wrong.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: I like a lot of old movies. This just isn't
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: an example of one of the ones that I like. Yeah,
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: so I like Audrey Hepburn.
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: She kind of plays a similar type of woman a lot.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: I think the only other thing I saw her in
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: was My Fair Lady.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: I liked that movie. Okay, and I had Red Pig
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: Million and I liked that. I haven't seen it for
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: over a decade, so I don't know if it holds
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: up at all. But the reason I don't like this
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: movie is I find the Holly Golightly character absolutely insufferable.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: I didn't read the novella, sall, I'm not super familiar
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: with the context, but just there's barely a plot and
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: I hate the character. So sorry about that. But from
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: here on out, I'm going to be happy and nice anyway,
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: So I'll do the recap.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: We are introduced to Holligo lightly. She's living in New
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: York City. Wow city where dreams true, concrete jungle where
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: dreams are made up? Okay, so it's the early sixties. She's,
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: you know, living a life in New York City. Although
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: it's never explicitly stated, there are different innuendos and hints
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: to suggest that she is a sex worker, escort American geisha.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: And early on she meets her new neighbor who moves in,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: named Paul, but she keeps calling him Fred because he
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: looks like her brother and Fred.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: And we know that it's a red flag because he
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: is a blonde male adult. It's still one of the
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: biggest human red flags you can encounter is an adult
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: blonde male, very dangerous. Do not interact with them.
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: So Paul also seems to have a certain arrangement with
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: a woman named missus Phalanson.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I love missus Phalanson.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: So Patricia Neil, she's amazing, so got her.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Husky voice, and then she she just she like appears
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: in a room and like, oh, she's going to fuck him. Yeah,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Like it's just such.
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: She's married to Roald Dahl.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know that. That's so cool.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: Fact cool.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: So they have an arrangement where he he's a writer,
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: but a struggling writer. He's written one book of nine
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: short stories. But other than that he needs some financial security,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: which missus Falansen seems to provide. So Paul and Holly
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: are in similar careers and they relate. They yeah, so
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: they kind of They started to become friends early on,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: Like Holly throws a party and she meets a few
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: different rich guys who get invited. One's named Jose Da
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Silva Pereira and the other one is rust Patrolla. These
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: men eventually become two men that Holly tries to pursue
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: and like seduce so that they will marry her so
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: that she can be wealthy, a wealthy man. Then Holly's husband,
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: we find out that she was previously married when she
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: got married. Okay, so this is going on fourteen thirteen.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: This is crazy. So she and her brother were poor,
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: their parents died. They were stealing turkey eggs from this
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: guy's yard. He was like full grown man. He was like,
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: oh my god, I'll adopt you. So she so he
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: adopts her and Fred and then when she gets to
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: be thirteen, he's like and he has kids from a
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: previous marriage. He's like, oh, I want to marry you.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: So then he marries her and then they like are
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: raising the brother and the kids together.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: What so weird. And then the way that the movie
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: presents him to me is also very bizarre, Like they
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: present him as like you understand why she doesn't go
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: back with him, obviously, but also he's presented it's like
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: this really like sympathetic.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: Sweet, simple man, but.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: He loves her, and you're just like, no, this guy's
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: like sucking criminal raise this saturatory rapist who shows up
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: with his big blue eyes. He's like, come back to
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: the farm, and you're just like.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: No, she's in the right, but as played as that,
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: like he's in the right. And also she says like,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: well I was I was only thirteen, so the marriage
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: wasn't old. Yeah, yeah, I bet it was.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that tracks like there's and also Paul pissed me
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: up in that scene, and this is I think, in
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways, just revealing of the era. Where
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Doc shows up. He's like, hey, that girl you have
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: a crush on I raped her and and like I
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: need to see her because I'm her husband. And Paul,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: without checking, without giving Holly any manner of heads up,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: just knocks on her door and he's like, hey, found
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: your rapist outside. Was like you fucking there. You just
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: sold her out so hard, And then Holly has to
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: deal with it. She does not get mad at Paul.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: She's like Doc's just a sweet guy.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just like we we can be upset with Doc.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I just that scene was so like there's a few
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: different moments in the way that Paul treats Holly that
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: this story doesn't address that. It's really just like okay, yeah,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: at that time, if a man says I'm this woman's husband,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how the woman feels you bring him
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: to her right, and his like this person you just met,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: his needs matter more than the person you're falling in
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: love with. Sure, right, right.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: So that is a fun story beat, But ultimately he's
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: like trying to lure her back home with the promise
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: of like, hey, your brother Paul's getting out of.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: The army, said Fred.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: She's like, no, I can't go back, and.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Then he like sort of threatens. He's just like, well,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: if you don't get on his Greyhound buzz with me,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: maybe you'll never see Fred again.
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: It was like, what friend's an adult?
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a man.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: But so then she's like, oh, I have to marry
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: a rich guy so that I can bring Fred to
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: me in New York City so I can take care
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: of him again, this adult man who has been in
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: the army for presumably a few years.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: She kind of insinuates that Fred is not smart.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Yes she's it's not stated, but yeah, she says at
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: the beginning that he's very slow and tall.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: Maybe he's like John Malkovich of Mice and Men.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: Yep, that's what that's the canon I'm going with.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: So she's trying to seduce these different rich men. First,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: she starts with Rusty Troller, but then she finds out
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: that he has married someone else, and then she starts
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: to go after Jose And meanwhile, like she's spending time
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: with Paul and they're really connecting and he's catching some
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: feels for her. But she, you know, she doesn't know
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: she is or not because she doesn't like to be
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: tied down to anyone. She's she's a free as a bird.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: There's a hat. It's a metaphor, right right.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: The cat doesn't have a name, and the cat will
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: get a name when she feels like she can settle down, right.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, But these different pursuits don't work out because she
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: gets arrested for her Oh wait, she I can't believe
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I forgot to mention Sally Tomato.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Feminiss Sally Tomato.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: He was like a known gangster. This like drug scandal
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: surfaces and because she was visiting him in prison. Yeah,
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: she gets I guess. Yeah, I don't really understand that hole.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: I read about it, and in the write ups I read,
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: they believe that she really didn't know, like she really
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: thought it was a weather report. But I don't know
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: if she's that stupid.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's gotten through life pretty cleverly.
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But so then she she's like about to go
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: to Brazil to marry Jose, and then she gets arrested
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: for her involvement with Sally Tomato.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: And then she is this before or after She finds
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: out that her brother has died in a.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Before before before because Jose is still there. Doesn't Jose
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: leave after?
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah he leaves because.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: She got arrested.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, So she finds that out, and then
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: she trashes her room and then she is in a cab.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: Paul has like picked her up from prison, and then
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: he's just like, I love you, Holly. You need to
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: get out of your cage that you built for yourself.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: You belong to me. He tells her that because he
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: loves her, that she belongs to him.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he won't let her go in the library and
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: he's like, good, he's got icecript. It's very romantic.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: And then she flings her own cat out of the cab.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, she's like.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Kind a home here.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also that one shot. This is like, I
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: think it's the scene we found out where Fred died,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: where someone it's clear it's not Audrey. Hepburn throws a
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: cat at the wall and you see the cat lie
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: through the frame and hit the wall. I was like,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: you can't do that, you kitchen, you.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: Had lands on the window.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you see. Like I'm like, you just imagine
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: like a first dad being like, Okay, I'm just gonna
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: throw this cat really quick.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: Oh my god.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: Also, cats do have eight nipples. This is cat facts
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: with Caitlin, Thank you so much.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: So, basically, in the in the cab right at the
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: end of the movie, Paul is confessing his love for Holly.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: She's like yeah, and then she's like, wait a minute,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: He's right. I do need to let people in. I
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: need to let love into my life. I do need
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: to go back and get my cat. So she gets
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: out of the cab and they look for the cat together,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: they find it, and then there's a kiss in the rain,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: and that is the end of the movie. Okay, let's
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: All right, and we're back.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: There's a lot that happens in this movie.
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of plot.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not on top of plot.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: To me, it's like there's no like really distinct desire
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: that she's given she has a few like micro goals,
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: but I think that Fred.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And security or her two motivations, Like she wants to
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: be with her brother, and she also wants to like
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: live a comfortable life without having to commit to someone
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: at first and then later decides she does want to
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: commit to someone because of comfort.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and Paul wants to be a writer. They're both
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: kind of trying to get out of sex work.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this just for context of the book, which
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: is very different. So Holly Golightly was pulled from two
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: different sources in Truman Capotte's life. One is his mom,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: who literally did basically the Lula May thing where when
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Truman Compotti was very young, his mom and this is
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: like they lived in Alabama, blah blah blah. Truman's mom
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: boots out, She's like, actually, I'm going to go to
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: New York and like find us a cool life, changed
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: her name the whole, like the whole Holly Galately sort
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: except she had a kid, and then eventually move Truman
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Capoti to New York with her. It didn't work out.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: They ended up moving back to Alabama. But so his mom,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: who he had like a weird relationship with his whole
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: life basically lived this sort of Holly Golightly adjacent lifestyle
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: for a while.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: Wait are you telling me a gay creative had a
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: weird relationship with his mom.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I can't.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: I can't believe it, but I get it better.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, because Paul in the story is Holly's neighbor but
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: is not like an explicit love interest at all and
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: is coded gay or that is like what was speculated
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: by a lot of critics. So it's like Truman Capoti
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: wrote this novella where he as an adult, became friends
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: with his mom at his age and then they have
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: this like it's it's great, and then the other one
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: is a.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: Neighbor of his right, a woman who lived downstairs from him.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, So it's like interesting self fan fic in
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: some ways. And then he also pulled on like he
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: I guess he's like, I want to write a female
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Gatsby character, which you can see a lot of in
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Hollygolately as well as like, oh yeah, the self made.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah is she a phony? The thing is she's a
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: real phony exactly. Yeah, she is a prototype manic pixie
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: dream girl.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: The way she's introduced when he comes in and she's
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: just talking over him so manically and like doesn't even
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: find my shoes.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah they're alligator.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: And it's just very like, oh, of course I'm doing this,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: like and he's sort of blown away by her, and
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: she's like, you know, just being super quirky.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Her being able to call a taxi, like her catching
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: her on the balcony, just improvising this beautiful tweet song
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: from the acoustic.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Guitar which is moon River, which was written for the movie.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but I feel like that trope is I mean,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: it's not even fully a recognized trope at this point,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: but it's commented on more than other Manic pixies where
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: we are given the context of her background and like
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: why she puts on this persona to survive, and like
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: it it makes sense and is explained and commented on
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: enough that it almost doesn't bother me really too much.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah it does movie.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah it doesn't bother me that much either, especially because
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: nobody is like shaming her for her flaw or like
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: her being a sex worker is not even the problem,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? And so that's that's
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: like a twist on it for me, where it's not
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: like someone had to save her necessarily. She had to figure,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: she had to come to this on her own, that
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: she she doesn't want. I don't know. I guess Paul
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: does a lot of the work, but she like makes
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: the choice to get out of the cab, right.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, she she has a lot of agency. The
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: ending rings where it was like my favorite part when
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I was younger, Like it rings a little bit hollow
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: for me now because the way Paul behaves at the
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: end of the movie is so entitled.
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: And yeah, he's very entitled, not like you belong to me,
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: And she says people don't belong to each other, right,
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: and she's right.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Right, But then cut to five minutes later, she belongs
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: to him now and the cat you know, Yeah, it's
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: it's weird that we hear her say those lines that
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: like definitely stuck with me when I was younger, and
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: then minutes later she goes back on it entirely, or
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: the story has her go back on that entirely, and
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: now she's gonna be in, you know, a normal relationship
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: with Paul, which is apparently all she ever wanted, even
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: though that's never really what she said that she wanted.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Which is why, like, I don't know if she has
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: that much agency. She's not that active of a character,
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: like so she's like, yeah, she has a few different
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: goals and motivations, but she's the worst person.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Why didn't she like her? Why?
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: I have a list why you don't like her. She
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: treats people around her horribly, most notably her neighbor mister Yuniyoshi,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: who will get into a whole horribly problematic oh boy
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: thing there. But there's a lot of people she doesn't
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: seem to care about. She uses people. She is superficial
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: and has terrible friends, and she only cares about status
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: and money. She is hyper materialistic. She never says anything
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: of substance. She only ever talks about like the rich
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: man she wants to marry. She's unaware of her surroundings,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: and she accidentally lights a woman's head on fire. She
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: is calling people ugly and fat all the time. She
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: doesn't own any books. She's never been to a library before.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: She thinks that South America is a country.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I disagree on a lot almost all she does think
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: that South America is okay.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: I'll give you that.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I think that you know those things in a void
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: are issues, but it's like she's a she's a I
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: think she does have a clear motivation and a lot
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: of those qualities. Especially I would argue the materialistic stuff
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: is so rooted in that she has had to find
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: ways to survive for so long and and it's like,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: it's not like these men with money that you know, like,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I guess you can make the argument that she has
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: manipulating them, but they're doing the same thing to her.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: They don't give a fuck about her. They want, you know,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: like a piece to bring to events like it is,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: and like fitting in with her like background as a
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: sex worker, even though no one's gonna say sex sex worker,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Like it's transactional in a lot of ways. And I
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: don't know, like the whole thing with her loving Tiffany's
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: just seems like in her life, given what we know
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: of her, the only consistent thing you can count on
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: our material things, because she's been let down by so
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: many people, with the exception of her brother, who she
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: is genuinely fighting for, but everyone else in her life,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: like who else can she point to is like, Oh,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: here's a person that is worth more than material security.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: And I don't think that there is any I mean,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: like her husband, like, well, we already went through that
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: where you know, the statutory rape and the you know, it's.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: Like what choice. She didn't have a choice but to
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: marry him. So it's really like because there was no
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: way out of that situation, right, It's similar like this
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: is like a downer, but my grandmother survived the Holocaust
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: and she's incredibly materialistic now, And like when I was younger,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: I used to judge her for that, and now that
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: I'm older, I'm like, oh, of course, Like of course
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: she wants to surround herself with like finery. The background
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: on that is so dark that like she's just like
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: I want all the jewelry. I want all the stuff.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: I deserve this right, Like and that completely makes sense
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: to me, Like that tracks as like motivation totally.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, it makes I think we're given
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: the context for it to make sense. I get that
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: she's like not likable in a lot of ways, and
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: that definitely like the Manic Pixie stuff is like present
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: and like used as oh, it feels almost like a
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: short cut at some points to like get us from
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: point A to point B, especially in terms of like
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: why is Paul in love with her manic pixie behaviors,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: so easy for it to be like and that's why, Yeah,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: he lives here.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: And also she's totally messed up and has a lot
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: of problems but flawlessly beautiful the whole time. Yes, yes,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: I would have like sleeping with makeup on, like like
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: she's like when she's like got the pigtails in the
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: sweater on and she's like, we have to go somewhere
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: where I can get in looking like this. I'm like,
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: but shut up, but joking, you look top ten most beautiful?
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: Are you kidding me?
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Right now than any of us will ever look in
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: our entire lives.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: Great thing, right, So there is a thing of like
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: romanticizing trauma and like making trauma beautiful, which is definitely
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: at play here.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's there's multiple points where I think
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: it's like three different men in this movie call her
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: crazy and that is always like red flag. And there's
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: one of my favorite ones just of like you know,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: like when you watch an old movie, there are just
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: like some clueless ways that it will interact with its
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: characters where Doc says to her, you're talking crazy, Lula
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: May and she says, don't call me that, and I'm
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: thinking crazy and then she's like, don't call me Lula May.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: I guess that's the bigger issue here, because people call
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: her crazy all the time, and it's just something she
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: has to deal with.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: She's a kook, she's an eccentric coup. Then what that was, Paul?
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, I don't know. I was. I was like,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: interesting choice that she's never been to a library before,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: But then I forgot. I mean, there are so many
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: details of this movie I've forgotten. I was like, oh,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: but she goes back later and she's like, oh, maybe
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: there is something to this.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: Whole He's never been to Tiffany's. So true, everyone's never
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: been places.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Okay, I think it's much more common to have never
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: been to a Tiffany's than to never have been to
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: a library.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: And the I kind of liked, I don't know the
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: whole Tiffany's and like stealing in that whole sequence is like,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: this is a bit long. They like each other, but the.
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: Well do you know that New York City is the
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: third character? There's everyone I just want for the listeners
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: at home, Jamie and Caitlin both very much hated that.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: No, he collapsed, did not like that at all. I
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: need to be revived. There's that's something that happens when
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: we have male guests sometimes where male guests love to
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: say that locations are also characters, Like.
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for telling me that there's Oh
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: I mentioned in the beginning, I'm an old movies asshole, right,
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: like that was weird to everyone.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Carrina Longworth over here, Oh god, I wish there's I
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: know she's.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: The I listened to that. I listened to that show
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: and it's real good.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: It's really good. Oh yeah, the Tiffany thing. I liked
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: the comment that she makes inside of Tiffany's that like
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: just reminded me of being poor, of like, oh yeah,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: I don't buy anything. I just like, you know, I
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: just like ster at nize things and it just like
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: calms me down. And that fits into the character very well.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Of just like the atmosphere of materialism is more comforting
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: than like other people.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: And there's a lot of class stuff too that they
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: like get the Crackerjack ring engraved. Yeah, Like it's just
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: a lot of like, you know the way that the
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: sales guy looks at them, and his judgy and that
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: they like keep going with the bit.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: And also in this world, it makes no sense that
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: he would look at these two gorgeous, well dressed people
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: and be like, seems sus it's like now they look
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: like they have money.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, he's being a full on asshole.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: I think we had a similar discussion on like the
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: Mulan Rouge episode, where if you really boil down this story,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: it is sort of about a woman who's a sex
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: worker who maybe is trying to get out of this lifestyle.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: How active she is in that pursuit is kind of
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: up for debate, but ultimately it's about a man who
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: comes in and sort of rescues her from it in
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: the sense that he's willing to provide her with actual love,
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: unlike the other men that she's interacting with in her profession.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: So in that sense, this is a story like the
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: one that we saw in Mulan Rouge and like we
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: see in Pretty Woman, and just a lot of like, oh,
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: you're a sex worker, that must mean that you just
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: need love from a man.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: I The counterpoint to that is that he is also
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: a sex worker, yes, and that he gives up missus
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: Phil he gives up her, and he gives up he
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: starts writing again because he's like, I need to make
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: money on my own, and he kind of also is
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: rescuing himself and she's rescuing him a little bit.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: But it's not his story, it's her story. So I
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: feel like I wish she had more agency and more
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: she was more active in the pursuit of whatever she wants,
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: which again I would argue, we don't like again, some
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: things are sort of defined, but I think there could
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: be a much clearer definition of what she actually wants
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: out of life.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: He's very entitled, but there is the thing that he
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: leaves her alone for a long time and then she
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: calls him to come back to the apartment.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Which is good. Yeah, I agree with both of you
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: on that. I think it's weird that, Like again, it's
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: like a Hollywood third act problem, where I think all
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: the work is done to make Holly a realized enough
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: character that the movie does not have to end the
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: way it does. She could act with way more agency
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: towards the end of the movie, and it would make
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: sense with her character because we've been given the contacts
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: in the background that she would have the motivation to
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: do it, but because of how these stories are structured,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: she's not allowed to. There is one line that Paul
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: says when he's breaking things off with Missus Phelanson, where
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: he's that really, I was just like, oh, come on,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: she can't help anyone, including herself. The thing is I
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: can help her, and that's a nice feeling for a change,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: And so we know that he's going into it thinking
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: that he is rescuing her and like that is even
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: though we know that she has a lot to offer
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: him as well. He pretty explicitly articulates what his mindset is,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: which is that like, I can help her, and that
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: makes me feel good, and I care about her, so
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I'm going to.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: And also because I love her, then she belongs to.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Me, right, So that is like a third actissue I have.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: And then there's also like one the other thing where
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: they are both sex workers, right, and her motivation is
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: so deeply rooted and survival. We also see her, you know,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: because she is a woman like treated worse like. At
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: the very beginning, the motivation for their first hang is
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: that mel blank fucking bugs Bunny is like chasing her
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: out of her own apartment to the point where she
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: has to leave out the way.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, these men are getting violent and like there's an
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: implication that he's gonna rape her. Right, She's just like
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: another day at the office exactly.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: She's like, he's nice when he doesn't drink, and you're
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: just like, yikes, okay, Yeah, so she has so so
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: much more shit even though they're both workers. It's clear
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: that she has to take more shit and Paul is
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: sort of given the luxury that I don't think she
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: really has in this movie of he has wanted to
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: provide her yes and is allowed to have a creative
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: pursuit and has the time to be able to do that,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: and that doesn't seem as possible for Holly.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: I also think the belong to each other thing is
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: interesting because it's phrased terribly, but what he means is
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: and what she ultimately takes away from it, and what
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: the cat provides is that.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: What the cat provides my new podcast.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: Is that put down roots. You have to put down roots,
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: you have to commit to something, you have to name
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: your cat. And that's why I like that she goes
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: after the cat when she gets out of the car,
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: because it's yes, belong to each other's phrased poorly, but
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: I do think he has a point in that, Like
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: she's she's always gonna be running, and as is this
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: doctor SEUs. Wherever you go, there you are. Uh oh,
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: I feel like that's a doctor Seuss thing, but maybe not.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: But basically, like you you have to you're always gonna
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: be stuck with yourself, so she can't keep running. Like
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: in the cabs, she's like, well, I'm gonna go to
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: Brazil anyway. I'm just gonna try to go anyway. Yeah,
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: and he's like, you love New York, you love me,
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: you love this cat, like deal with it. So I
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: do think there is If she was like, actually, I
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: do want to be this free person and he was
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: coming from no evidence and no information, then I can
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: see it. But also it is hard to swallow a
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: guy being like, here's what you need, but it is
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: what she needs.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: Well, but it's just it sucks that he has to
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: make her see that and she doesn't come to that
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: conclusion on her own, but.
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: She does when she gets out of the car because
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: she kind of just gone to Brazil and been like, nah,
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: fuck you dude.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: Well, it's only because the long speech that he has delivered. Yeah,
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: like it was still like his actions and his words
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: poorly phrase though they may be that gets her to
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: realize what I mean.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: But yeah, that's why it would have been great if
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: jose had been waiting for her, Like if she had
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: actually have a choice, then she would have made a choice.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, right, right, Yeah. I don't hate aside from
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: his very horrible phrasing of saying that she belongs to him,
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: I don't hate the message that he's saying, which is
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: basically just like, you need to be emotionally vulnerable if
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: you ever want to connect with anyone and be happy,
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: which she realizes that it just yea. I wish that
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: she had come to that conclusion on her own, through
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: her own you know, journey, rather than to have him
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: very explicitly teach her that lesson.
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and also would have liked to see maybe a
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: bit more of her throwing that back at him and
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: being like, you do the same thing. You don't fucking write.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: You say you're a writer, but you don't write. You're
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: kind of a prototype of a of a guy who's
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: just privileged in just being like I'm gonna I'm good looking,
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: so I'm gonna like let women, you know what I mean, Like,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: she doesn't give it back to him.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: She was a hard challenge him.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, at all, as hard as anyone.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: I wanted her to yell at him so much when
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: she was like, why did you bring Doc to my house?
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: But that's just I don't know why. That was the
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: part I most strongly objected to. But I was so
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: mad at he's so mad at me.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: He ambushes her with her rabbit.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: He's just like, yeah, you're gonna want to get on
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: a Greyhound bus with this guy. I'm like, what is
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: wrong with you?
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Anyways, are there any the other women at the party?
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: Is that one boisterous woman that she hates, mag wild
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: mag Wildwood, who she hates and thinks is a bore
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: and then who passes out and everyone just lets her
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: hit the ground.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's another reason she's a terrible person. Like she
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: knows that she's about to fall, and instead of Holly
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: helping her fellow woman, she goes timber.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Also, no one, no one like that clear out of
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: the way. It reminds me of that scene at the
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: beginning of School of Rock where Jack Black tries to
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: do the stage dive, but everyone's like he's a jerk
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: and they just let him hit the floor. Yeah.
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but that she would be dead, you know what
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, And like that's off, like she hits her
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: head like it's not okay.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: She would have at least broken her no, right face.
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: And then there's like other women at the party, irving
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: who's like the guy the OJ the agent is trying
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: to get with yes, oh yes, And then who's he's
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: kind of like chasing her around. And then there's one
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: Asian woman, yes, who does not does not speak.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Is I mean not the worst part of the way
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Asian culture is portrayed in this movie, for sure, but
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: this reminded me a little bit of a few episodes
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: ago we did the Royal ten and bombs in just
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: like the use of Asian culture as set dressing correct
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: and characters that are never given any.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and she's dressed a very specific way. Yes, I
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: mean it was interesting that she was in clue in
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: the socialite scene. I thought that was interesting, but also
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: dressed a certain way and doesn't.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Talk, doesn't Yeah, so we just have no context of
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: like who she is, why she's there.
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: And then also there's like an interesting thing where with Jose.
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: It seems like his family is like very important politicians
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: in Brazil, and so there's like an implication that he
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: can't marry a white woman, which is very interesting too.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Oh I didn't catch that.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: I mean that he's like bringing her around and she's like,
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: we're gonna get married with all his family there, and
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: it's like very clear that that's not gonna happen.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if that was because she was a
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: call girl. Oh.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: I got the impression that like she's trying to, like
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: she was learning to cook and like trying to learn
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: Portuguese and like fit in with his family, and I
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: think there was like an implication that he can't marry
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: someone who's not part of like the Brazilian political family.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Or whatever that makes sense. I thought that they were
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: just like, hey, don't marry a sex worker.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: But then she has a line well yeah, and then
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: she has a line where she says, oh, our kids
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: will have dark skin, but but green eyes. I was like, okay, okay,
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: x yeah. Well, I was like, what do you mean, Holly,
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: you don't have green eyes? Like what are you talk about?
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: Who here has green eyes? What are you talking about?
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: From?
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: But yeah, it's it's very weird. And then of course
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: Mickey Rooney.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we should we just do it?
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we gotta do it. I'd recommend an article that
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: was in the Wall Street Journal from a few years
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: ago by Jeff Yang, who talks about this role at length.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: So this, this is something that's been talked about for years.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: People have protested like different.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Screenings of this movie.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, because of Mickey Rooney's portrayal of the character
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: of mister Unioshi, which is.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Of course two thousand and eight comes out with a
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: big old defense of ye doing it Earlier.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: Earlier he had said he regretted it, he's sorry he
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: did it, he didn't know, blah blah blah, you did
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: this whole thing. And then he got older, I assume,
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: more senile, and then in two thousand and eight was like,
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: not fuck y'all.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I I never in defense of Mickey Ronny here,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: but Mickey Ronnie the last couple of years of his life,
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: pretty much anything he says is not loucid. So it's
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: a bummer that he was even allowed to make a
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: statement about it, because I think he was like still
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: lucid when he was like Oh, that's incredibly offensive.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: Well, I think he.
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: Believed, Yeah, he believed it was offensive, but I think
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: he got upset when screenings were canceled, and that's when
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: he was like went full defensive.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: Like no one's ever complained about this role before that
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: they have.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really he has never seen a computer before.
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: It's really bad. It is him straight up in yellow face.
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: He's got a terrible accent. He's treated terribly by hollygo lightly.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: It's such a wee weird, horribly offensive character. It's like
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: one of the worst, like the most racist characters ever
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: committed to film.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: For sure.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: They put buck teeth in his mouth, they like taped
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: his eyes.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really bad.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: That really irresponsible thing. You can think of, every insensitive thing,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: incredible attention to detail. It's just fucking crazy.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: Because we did an episode recently also about Aliens, and
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: we talked about the character of Vesquez being a brown face.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: At the very least, Again not to defend any you know,
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: whitewashing or anything like that, or any racist characters, but
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: at least that character of Vesquez is treated with respect
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: by the other characters and the movie itself. Yeah, this
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: is just like the worst example, and.
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: It also doesn't add anything to the story. Like I've tweeted,
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: I've tweeted about like loving Breakfast to Tifany's and I've
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: been like my kingdom for someone who will just cut
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: a version of the movie without his character at all,
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: and the movie would make complete sense.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, don't need it. There's a few different
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: elements of this movie. Just from a story perspective, you
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: don't need that character. You don't really need Sally Tomato,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Like there's not there's some there's certain things that just
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: like you're some weird fat trimming.
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: Sally Tomato comes into play because her arrest is what
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: leads Jose to leave her. But it would make even
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: better and just as much sense if she decides on
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: her own to leave Jose and be with.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Paul, right she loves him.
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think the cat has is more of
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: an important part of the story plot wise than any
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: of those other.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Things, right, yes, so yeah, I checked that piece out.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: And and then also it Warrant's saying that, you know, well,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: this is one of the most egregious examples of a
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: yellow face character in film. It was happening, you know,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: as recently as Emma Stone, so it is something that
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: still happens in film and will anyone ever learn ever?
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I just watched Doctor Strange until this Winton's character
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: is supposed to be Asian as well.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: It's like, what, there's so much whitewashing.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: That's horrible.
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, especially I think like I think because it's yellow face,
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: people are willing to give it more of a pass
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: than like if he was straight up in black face,
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: people would be like, well, obviously that's not I mean,
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: some people would say it's bad, but because it's yellow face,
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: people are like no, it's like okay, you know what
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, Like they view it as not as bad
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: when it very clearly is right. And similarly with aliens too,
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: I think they're like, that's not so bad. Yeah it is.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: It is it is.
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: It is so bad. Yeah, and it sucks because it's
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: otherwise like a good, feel good movie. And then you're like, like,
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: I really do please someone out there edit together the
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: movie without those scenes and it would be just as good, right.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: It's really it's really frustrating, And at the time I
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: was trying to like figure out like, okay, what did
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: this add to this movie at the time, and it's
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: just like I think it was intended as like a
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: slap sticky, like, oh, wouldn't it be funny, which is
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: just makes it even worse. And it's also totally at inconsistent.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: It's like a completely different it's taking place in a
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: different movie. Right, It's not good. It's bad.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine if you just like lost your keys
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: all the time and then you woke up your neighbor.
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: If you have twenty six keys made to your apartment,
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: yeah you can get in, But do you.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: Like consistently like buzz your neighbor and wake him up
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: all the time, and then in order to like appease
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: him for a moment, you say, yeah, you can take
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: nude pictures of me.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I did that with my moment orn yesterday. No
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: kind of we just just a moment in praise of
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Emily Eustace Phalans.
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: Oh for sure.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Patricia Neil, she just think that she is so cool
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: and like for this time she's so confidently cheating on
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: her husband that it is fun to watch. And then
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: and then you see this breakup scene between her and Paul,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: which I thought was like kind of sad but also
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: kind of I don't know, I was surprised. Yeah, because
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: we only see her three years.
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: She doesn't break out. She's sort of very like practical
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: minded about it.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: She's not like, yeah, but it's a little sad too,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: where it's like the way that she exerts her control
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: over the situation with her and Paul is with her
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: money and so when he makes the emotionally based decision
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: of like I'm falling in love with someone, I need
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: to break this off. I can't do this anymore, she's like, oh,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: how do I retain my power in the situation? And
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: she tries to give him money, and that was just like,
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: My assumption was that she was I thought, I always
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: think that she's giving him the thousand dollars check to
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: go on a trip because she thinks that they will
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: spend time together, realize they're not in love, and that
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: he'll come back.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Oh okay.
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: I always thought that she was like saying, like, go
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: for it. Then, like I'll even pay for it because
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: this isn't gonna work out, so.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean exactly, Yeah, like.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Enjoy your trip, realize you're both people, fall out of love,
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: you'll come back, you know what I mean?
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: And then he goes into his closet and he's like,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: find another fuck boy, goodbye.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: Hopefully he has the same length of arms as me,
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: so you don't even have to go to a tailor.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Starts toss out. It's great.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: So she'll be fine. She'll she'll find another young, strapping man.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're super hot. You want to be writers.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like that character. She's a feminist icon.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: I love her calls Paul while her husband is in
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: the room. This just like, Hey, my husband came home early. Gross,
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: So I guess we can't see each other today. He's
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: right there.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know why she's the
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: icon of this movie for me.
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: We don't know what the husband's deal is. She just
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: like she's just like I want to pay for sex
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: and I don't care.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Maybe they're in an ethical non monogamy relationship.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why she is able to make the call
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: while he's in the room. My god, I don't I
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: guess I sort of just assume, like, well, it was
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: a marriage in nineteen sixty one, so it probably was
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: bad and she could not get out of it and
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: being disgraced.
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and likes likes her younger men.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good for her. Yeah, she's also Yeah, she's like
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: an older woman who's just I just I like her
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: a lot.
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, speaking of marriage and that, like the fact
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: that Holly is trying to pursue two different men who
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: are rich and she thinks that she's going to be
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: able to marry into money. I get that that is
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: maybe a logical next step for someone in her profession.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: Even so, the fact that she is trying to marry
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: for money and not actually pursue like any of her
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: other talents or anything like that, to just try to
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: get a job and earn money for herself.
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: Where would she work.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know. You could go to work at Tiffany's not.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: Really Yeah, yeah, well she doesn't have a bumpkin. You know,
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: she's a bumpkin. She doesn't really have a lot of
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: other options.
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: Like there have many options in something, but it's notety.
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: One, it's not nineteen sixty one. It's hard. There's not
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: a lot of avenues for women. You really only had
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: you had to get.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Married, right, It's like, well that's the sex work does
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: seem like one of really the only routes for Holly
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: to live the life that she wanted to live at
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: that time, because it it seems like if her motivation,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: her ultimate motivation is she's waiting for her brother to
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: get out of the army so that they can go
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: off and live together. And she's trying to save so
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: she doesn't want to be tied down because that means
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: when Fred gets out of the army, then they can't
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: go through with the plan. And so, yeah, she has
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: so few options. She doesn't have an education, she's.
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: Never been to a library, like yeah, yeah, and she
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: is like coming from a trauma background and I don't
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: don't think she has a lot of And honestly, like
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: that was that was like a valid career path, Like
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: marrying rich is like a valid career path to get
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: out of shit.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: I mean women used to go to college to meet
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: their husbands so.
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: That you can like try to move up in class,
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: move up in your station. She's already pretty wild that
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: she got out of she's in Alabama.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Right, I don't know if she's from Texas that she
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: got he's from Alabama.
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that she got out of there anyway to
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: go in the sixties to be in New York.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's a miracle then she and like a
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: testament to her own, you know, like cleverness and tenaciousness,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: that she is able to live the life she has,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: even though it is unsustainable and requires constant like hustling,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: et cetera. I don't know. I think I left this
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: viewing with a better understanding of Holly. I still like that.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: I still like the movie. It's darker and sadder than
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: I remember, and I think that's like a super common
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: I know, way to.
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: Forget sadder and darker than I think people who only
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: look at it for the esthetic give it credit.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: For yeah, you know, and it goes without saying, but
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: we should say it is a very white movie. It
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: is the most prominent non white character is played by
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: a white person. So there you go. That is just
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: a version of New York that only exists in fiction
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: and is frustrating.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: To write and of, you know, as we come up
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: upon on almost every movie we encounter a very hetero movie.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: And I think it had the movie like adapted the
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: character of Paul as I mean, but then we like.
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: Then you don't get the love story well, which.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: Is fine for me, but I also don't necessarily want
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: like I mean, and this is you know, early sixties,
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: so if there is a gay character, they would have
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: to be coded gay because of the production code, like
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: you know, that wouldn't have flown. But I just, man,
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: I haven't read the book.
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: Is he still fucking the wife even though he's gay,
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: he's coded as gay?
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I haven't I didn't reread the book
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: before this. I just went to read the He is
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: definitely still like coded as a sex worker. So I
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: think that, yeah, it's possible that he was having sex
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: with Valenson because she is a character in the novella
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: A double check. Yeah, how explicit because it seems like
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: even more so in the book than in the movie.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: There's I don't think it would say explicitly that he's
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: fucking her. Yeah, right, so my guess is it would
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: be more implications. Okay, yeah, interesting.
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: It would have been a cool movie if if he
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: was coded as gay and they just helped each other
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: as friends. That's interesting.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: Or it would have been even cooler if he was
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: just allowed to be explicitly gay and then they were just.
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: Well yeah, I'm talking about nineteen sixty right right now,
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: you remake it. Now he's just like played who's he
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: played by Billy Eichner.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Right, well, even in the book, he does say in
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: the book that he's in love with Holly Golightly, but
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: it is open interpretation of like what kind of love
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: for he's bisexual? Right, we don't know.
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: We don't know.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: Capote's dead. He cannot tell us. And on that note,
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: let's take a quick break and we'll be back in
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: a second. And here we are.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: We're back, We're back.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie?
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: No, I mean, I'm trying to remember if if it
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: passes the Bechdel test, but we'll get there.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: The only other female character that gets to speak, I'm
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: pretty sure, is that female police officer when Holly's arrested.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: She goes nuck it off, and I was like, oh,
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: a woman spoke a female police officer.
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: Though, yes, hey, very progressive.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Shere's no female detectives, but a female arresting officer.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: Yes, there's also a female librarian who keeps yelling at
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: Holly because she's never been in a library before and
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: doesn't know that she needs to keep her voice down.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: So yeah, let's talk about if the movie passes the
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: Bechdel Tester or not. There are very few scenes where
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: women interact.
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: Mag Wildwood and Holly.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: At the party.
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: Party.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: I had that conversation is not passing because they mentioned
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: mister Unioshi and the two mens that the Mag brings
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: to the party, Jose and Rusty So and.
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: She's talking to them and Audrey Hepburn says, you're being
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: a bore and that's kind of the only right.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: So I didn't have that scene as passing, Jamie, you
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: said I.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Had, Holly mag Darling, you're being a bore. Mag says,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: shut up, but that does.
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: And then she talks to Emily Ustace whatever, what's her life?
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: Hale.
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: They talk in the beginning with Paul when they meet outside.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know that.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: Paul introduces them. Holly says how do you do? And
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: missus Vallinson says how do you do? But doesn't look
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: at her. She looks away because she hates her so much.
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: Then he says, oh, this is my interior decorator.
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But that's all they that's that. It's
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: just like, how do you do? How do you do?
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: We see a few women interacting at Holly's party, but
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: we don't know any of their names. Holly does talk
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: about that librarian, but we never learned her name, or
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: the police officer or the police officer. Yeah, and I
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: don't think she and the police officer are actually interactive,
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: more like a side by side like yeah, so yeah,
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: I guess there are a couple two line exchanges that
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: technically pass the Bechdel test, but.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Given the movie, it should do a lot better.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: You would think, yeah, yeah, and I think Mickey Rooney's
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: character should just decimate like that's like negative one thousand points. Yeah, yeah,
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: so any points you've earned, Yeah, it's a negative one thousand.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: Well, shall we the movie on our Nipples scale for
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: new listeners. We have a special rating scale that we've
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: devised to judge the movies that we've talked about.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is called the nipple scale. Get used to
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: that phrase. You'll be hearing it a lot. It is
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: where Kayla, myself and our guest I'll rate the movie
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: we just discussed on a scale of zero to five
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: nipples based on how the movie treats its female characters,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: not on how much you like the movie. The best
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: part of the Nipple scale is you get to describe
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: them in fact, you have to to describe them, and
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: you get to give them two characters in the movie,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: or Alfa Malina if you want to right, Yep.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: So that's our nipple scale for me. I think I'm
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: gonna give it one nipple. I think it's interesting to
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: explore a story about a woman who's a sex worker
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: who falls in love with another sex worker. I think
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: that this movie, though, and it could be due to
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: some restrictions of the era and the production code and
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: things like that, but I think it doesn't do a
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: whole lot to explore all the interesting facets of that premise.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: Number one. Number two. I think that Holly go Lightly
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: is a bad person who is careless and who mistreats people,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: and she's like a prototype of the very annoying manic
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: pixie dreamgirl trope that we've come across several times and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: that I don't especially care for. I think that her
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: desires and her motivations are arguably not that well defined,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: and everything we do know about her and what she
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: wants is tied to a man in some way. She
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: wants to marry a rich man so that she can
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: take care of her brother, so at least that motivation
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: isn't entirely selfish, but men are still the source of
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: her desires, her motivations, and pretty much all she does
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: on screen is talk about men. And then also after
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: her brother dies, she just goes right back to wanting
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: to marry a rich dude. So it feels like just
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: kind of inconsistent and sort of like negates the motivations
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: that had been established for her earlier. Then finally it
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: takes a different man, Paul, to basically fix her and
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: to inspire her character arc. Also, and we didn't really
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: talk about this that much, but her relationships to the
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: other women in the movie are generally like very petty,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: very caddy. It's like women feeling though they have to
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: compete against each other, women not treating each other with
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: kindness and respect. So it just kind of reinforces those
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: stereotypes of like women are always fighting, women are caddy
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: towards each other. And I understand that this is a
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: movie that came out many decades ago. Things were very
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: different back then. Historical context was very different back then,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: but I still find that there's not that much redeemable
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: about the character of Holly, about the movie itself. I
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: just think that it could have gone in much more
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: interesting directions, explored her experience in a more interesting way,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: had it so that everything that she does and wants
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: to do isn't tied to men in some way. So
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: one nipple from me and I will give it to
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: missus Fallonson because she is pretty dope femino Psyiconvalencin.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, I man, I hope that I'm not being too generous.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: I'm wanting to give it a two or two and
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: a half. Yeah, I'm gonna go with it doesn't matter.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: The thing is that's a metric and it doesn't matter.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: But I'm so stressed sor right now, I'm gonna give
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: it two and a half. I mean, it goes without
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: saying that the way this movie treats race, especially in
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: regards to Mickey Rooney's character, is abhorrent and terrible and
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: bad and there's no excuse for it. I agree that
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: this movie should have it cut entirely, and it wouldn't
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: have much of a difference on the movie. Yeah, but
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: as it pertains to the treatment of women specifically, I
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: do think that Holly golightly, I think she does have
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: a motivation and I think that she it is clearly.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: She comes by her fault in a way that is
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: clearly explained by the movie and is grounded, and she
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: loses points for the manic pixie dream girl stuff, and
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: the movie loses points for how it sort of botches
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: the third act. I think in a lot of ways,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: in the way that the message of being emotionally vulnerable
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: is communicated as ownership to a man, and you know,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: the last fifteen minutes. I have a lot of issues
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: of how her characters treated, but in the way that
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: she's built and the portrayal of sex work, even though
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: it can't be explicitly stated in movies at all, at
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: this point, she's treated with respect. I think she's called
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: out for faults in ways that for the most part,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: with the exception of her being called crazy, with the
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: exception of her being chased out of her own apartment,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: with the exception of her romantic interest bringing her rapist
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: to her door, with the exception of those things, she
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: she is for the most part treated as if not
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: with respect, because she's not necessarily treat with respect. But
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: I do think she is treated as like a capable
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: character who for most of the movie has agency in
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: how she lives her life given the restraints that are
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: put on her by the world and the era.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'm I'm ignoring like the time period
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: and the socioeconomic cultural situation of the early sixties.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of stuff that
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: she doesn't do here, But at the time, I think
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: it's like it implied just because this is the world
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: that it came out, and that she couldn't do that
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: and that wasn't an option for her really at all.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna give it two and a half nipples.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: I do like Holly, and I love missus Phalinson, and
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: so I'm gonna give a nip to miss Phalenson, a
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: nip to Holly, and then I'm gonna toss half a
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: nip to the one who goes knock it up. I
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: liked her a lot.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 4: I agree with everything Jamie said. You put it really well,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: and I just think it's so cool. In a lot
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: of the old movies that I really love, I'm constantly
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: surprised by the way women are portrayed and that they
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: are just speaking purely in terms of being sexual beings,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: Like the way that they're portrayed as like being allowed
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: to be that way, And I guess I had this
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 4: idea in my mind of women kind of only being
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: these like fifties or early sixties kind of like housewives,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: And so I'm constantly or even like that pre marital
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: sex might be seen as bad, but like that, there's
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: so many characters and especially typified by hollygood lightly but
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: just in a lot of these older movies, there's so
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: many female characters whose motivations are sex or who like
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: are having sex. And when I started watching old movies,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: I was really surprised by that because it's today seen
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: as such a thing. Like women like movies where women
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: are sexual are like given a standing ovation, And I'm like,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: but we've been doing this. I don't know why, like
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: we have this. I think people haven't watched a lot
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: of these old movies, so they see it a certain way,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: and they think that this movie is about like an
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: upscale woman in a tiara who just buys things from Tiffany's,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: and like, they haven't watched it, so they don't know
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: that it's actually about like class and trauma and like
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 4: sex work and you know, all these things that.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: And that she doesn't buy anything from Tiffany.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: She does.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: No purchase.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: She doesn't even eat breakfast inside you guys. Although fun fact,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: this is like the first time Tiffany's allowed anyone to
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: film inside of Tiffany's.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: Oh no kidding, that's cool.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: So yeah, So I just and I and that we
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: never we almost never see male sex workers treated with
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: respect or like, you know, male sex workers who are
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: with women, although I guess that show hung but like.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: Who's in that show to miss Jane?
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: Wow, if I got that right, that would be incredible.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: And so I just think it's surprising, like maybe I'm
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: giving it too maybe I'm gonna give it three nipples,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: and maybe I'm giving it too many nipples because I
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: was just so shocked by how chill the movie was
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: about so many things. Yeah, and for its era, and
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: how like misunderstood it is by like anyone who's ever
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: had a poster of it in their dorm room.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: It is Thomas Jane by the.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: Way, Wow, guys, take me on your trivia team. I
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: know so much useless stuff and so and I think
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: it's trying as hard as it can for its time.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: I will give it negative five thousand nipples for Mickey Rooney. Yes,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: and I can't even begin to imagine what they were thinking.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: I guess they thought it was it was a comic
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: relief even racism aside, which it never is. But it
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: tonally does not fit with the rest of the movie.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: It takes so away from the movie. Even if even
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: if the role was played by an Asian actor, even
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: if the role was toned down by fifty percent, it
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: would still tonally not fit in with the rest of the.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: Movie for sure.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: As a like screenwriter, it doesn't make any sense to me,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: There's no point to it.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: The party scene also seems totally inconsistent because there's some
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: like slapsticky physical humor there.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: Just I was like, what is this supposed to be funny?
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: Like what I think this.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: Movie was supposed to be like a rom COMI thing
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: of its time, But the rom and the calm feels
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: so separate. But it's just yeah, there's no there's no overlap.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, So some of the characters feel very grounded,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: and then some of the characters are in a different
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: movie right, and that is either poor screenwriting or poor
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: directing or.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: A fun mix. Who are you giving your nipples too?
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: Two to Failstein Failingstein, She rocks one to all you
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 4: go lightly, I guess the nipple only go to women.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: They can go to anywhere you want to, men, animals,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: people who aren't even in the movie objects.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: I want to give one to the cat idea, I
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 4: want one to the cat. Absolutely, the cat is wonderful.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 4: It did its own stunts.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: That was That was such good acting by that cat.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: That cat ruled. I mean the scene where the scene
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: where the cat's playing with the cigarette that I mean,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: that cat was trained so well. I loved it.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: The cat was wet and didn't freak out care. Yeah,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: you're just like, what is what is this? Cat's a
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: star acharcter a cacter.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, cat actor.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: Anyway, all right, well, Gabby, thank you so much.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: For being here.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me, and thanks for doing a
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: movie that you fucking hate.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: You're so welcome. I'm happy to make the sacrifice for
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: this podcast and for you, Gabby.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: Oh I just I wanted to try to get like
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 4: something super old in here. Yeah, just for your your
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: fans that are like seventy to eighty, like really your
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: demo which.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: We have so many of us. Yeah, I'm sure shout
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: out to our older fans. Thank you so much for listening. Gabby,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: where can people follow you online? Do you have anything
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: you'd like to plug?
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: Oh? Sure.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 4: My podcast Bad with Money is currently on season three.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: It's out now and it's about money, but it's tries
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: not to be stressful, just trying to break the taboo. Guys,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: thank you. And I'm on Twitter at Gabby Done and
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: on Instagram at Gabby Road because I don't understand branding. Yeah,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 4: and then I had a book come out last year
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: called I Hate Everyone But You and it was a
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: New York Times bestseller and it's a ya novel but
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: also like a novel regular and you can get that
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 4: wherever books are sold.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, not at Tiffany's though, they don't sell books.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: Not at tiffany.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: You can go to a lot, you can go the
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: library though, but you should buy. You should buy Gabby's book.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 4: Get to Tiffany's, get it engraved.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, you can find us. We are now in the
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: house stuff Works Network. Wow exciting. We're network girls, We're
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: little bitches. But you can also still find us on
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: our Matreon, Patreon dot com slash Bechdelcast. Five bucks a
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: month gets you two extra episodes. Wow.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: Amazing for our new listeners. You can follow us on
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: social media at Bechdel Cast on both Twitter and Instagram,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: and we also have a Facebook page just called the
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: Bechdel Cast.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: Nothing Tricky, Nothing Tricky. You can find me on Twitter
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: dot com at Jamie Loftis Help.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: And you can find me at Caitlin Dorante. And then
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: for our existing listeners, thanks for always being here, Thanks
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: for all of your support.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: Thank you guys for doing this show. It's so fun.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: I love it, you love doing it, and we're glad
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: you could be here on your upgrade.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. And I said, what about breakfast
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 3: at Tiffany's?
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: And I said, I think I remember the film, and
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: as I recall, we both kind of liked it.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: Well, you recall correctly because I did not like it.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: But that is still one thing we've got that passed
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: the Victal test.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: Yay, good eye