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SA Ep100 - Justice, Mercy, and the Death Penalty...Can All Three Coexist? · Seeking Approval Podcast

0:03
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Seeking Approval Podcast.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm the first few stuff from the Illian Baptist Church.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, life lose faith.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: And faith is coming to be refused.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: I want to take some time and slow down with you and have some honest conversations from the Word of God about daily.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: So join me here today on Seeking Approval.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Justice, mercy, and the death penalty.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Can all three coexist?
0:31
SPEAKER_00: I guess now is as good a time as any to dive into this subject.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: It's all over local news and national news in recent days, and I've I've put it off for a couple days dealing with it, but this really uh is a topic that uh if you had a room full of Christians uh from the same church, maybe even from the same family, with the same convictions, uh, you may come up with different answers to this question.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh can co can justice, mercy, and the death penalty coexist?
1:04
SPEAKER_00: And this is dealing with uh the Krista Pike and uh Colleen Slimmer and very unfortunate uh circumstances and events that happened, which leads to uncomfortable questions for Christians to have to deal with, like you and I.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh just to get you caught up a little bit, uh I don't want to, I'm not this is not a news story, but just to kind of get us caught up, Krista Pike was convicted back in 1995 of pre-premeditated murder of a 19-year-old named Colleen Slimmer.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh Tennessee uh jury found her guilty and sentenced her to death.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: Um the sentence has survived decades of appeals, uh, which is important in uh what we'll be discussing later, if given the time.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: And then here recently, uh the state uh tried to carry out the sentence of lethal injection.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh after two attempts, she survived.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: She's now uh suffered some serious injuries, uh uh she's conscious, she's speaking and all that.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: Um it it's just a sad situation from beginning to end.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Every part, there's no part of this situation other than um the the state of Tennessee getting the conviction correct.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: Other than that, there's no part of this that is good.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Um that that is uh done in the in the right manner, I guess that I would say.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Not that I'm against uh capital punishment and the death penalty.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that, but the way this was done.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: When capital punishment becomes a national debate, the convicted person often becomes the center of the story.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: The problem is that the victim slowly disappears.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh Miss Colleen, the 19-year-old that lost her life tragically, uh, and the story is just it's it's it's gruesome and awful, and I don't want to discuss that part, but the victim is the one who ultimately disappears in all of it.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: And the the story, the debate, the hot topics, the hot takes from you know media and social media outlets becomes over the victim who is to be put to death.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: But we can't forget Colleen.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: She had a life, she had a family.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, her life was, it was a tragic ending to her life.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: So as a Christian, how do we look at this?
3:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, as a Christian, our conversation about this cannot begin with capital punishment.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: Our conviction has got to start with where all this started, with the death of an innocent child.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've got a daughter that's uh 18.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, she's still a child to me.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: This this little girl, she was 19, she's still a child.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Then we introduce the question: can Christians believe in mercy while also believing that some crimes deserve the ultimate civil punishment?
4:04
SPEAKER_00: And I do think that the scripture gives us the answer.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's very clear on what the scripture tells us about this.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why I say there are things in this whole situation, and in many uh capital punishment cases, I think that it's it's not done the way that it ought to be done.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: But when we start with capital punishment cases, again, we've got to start with where the crime was at, not the end result of someone sitting on death row.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: We've got to go back to the crime, and immediately Christians will go to the Old Testament law when discussing capital punishment.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: But it actually starts before that.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: We can go all the way back to Genesis chapter number nine.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: The Bible says, Whoso shed of man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made he man.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Now, Genesis 9, this is after the flood.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Flood starts happening somewhere around chapter 5, 6, 7.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: The flood has happened.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Man, mankind is is restarting.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: So this is before Moses, before Israel, before the law.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: God established soon after the the flood had ended.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: He established his principle when concerning human life.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: And we can see why God takes this very seriously.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Why this is a very serious offense.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Because in the Old Testament it tells us, for in the image of God made he man.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: The death penalty is not presented because uh human life is cheap because we you know there's just a need to kill somebody.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: It's actually presented because of, again, the original sin of taking something that was so precious that that I mean, God breathed life into man, created him in his own image, and that life of Colleen Slimmer was taken.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: That can't be forgotten.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: So that turns the argument now from uh is is capital punishment right or wrong?
6:01
SPEAKER_00: We have to go back and say, was the original murder right or wrong?
6:04
SPEAKER_00: What's the value of that human life?
6:09
SPEAKER_00: So i if if we are to believe that life is sacred, then the question comes, then how can we support the death penalty?
6:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that goes against that's uh that's uh that's almost like double-tongued.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: But it's because life is sacred, deliberately taking that innocent life is treated as an extraordinary, serious offense to God.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: So when the when the Bible gives us the Old Testament law in Exodus 20 and 13, when thou shalt not kill, one of the one of the one of the big ten, uh, you know, that's that's what the the folks who are against capital punishment, the death penalty.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: That's usually where they'll run to, but we've got to go back before that, remember.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: So now what they'll say what those folks will say is, well, the Bible says thou shalt not kill.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: Case closed.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: You have no argument.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: But the same law, just one chapter later, Exodus 21 and 12, says, He that smiteth a man so let uh so that he die shall be surely put to death.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: So talking about thou shalt not kill, that's talking about the original.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: That's talking about what happened to Colleen, the shedding of innocent blood.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: Thou shalt not kill, the shedding of innocent blood.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: The murderer now, who in this case is Christopike, that's not innocent blood anymore.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: Now she has went against the Exodus 2112 law, he that smiteth a man so that he dies, surely he shall be put to death.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Those statements, they don't contradict one another, they support one another.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: The scripture that we have in those two verses, it distinguishes, and actually all scripture distinguishes between murder, accidental death, killing and warfare, self-defense, and judicial punishment.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, those are those are five distinct uh topics of death, and then you've got you know just the natural course of man dying, so really six, but we're dealing with with you know a man taking another man's life, so there's five that deal with that murder, accidental death, killing and warfare, self-defense, judicial punishment.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: And one of those is condemned, utterly condemned by God, and that is the taking of an innocent life.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Now, is accidental death taking of an innocent life?
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: Then we've got to look at at the intent.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, uh a father that's you know cleaning his gun.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: I was reading this story while I was preparing for this, a got a father cleaning his gun, and you know, unfortunately, you know, an unfortunate accident happens, and you know, someone in his family, you know, a wife, a child, is is shot and killed.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh somebody's out hunting and they accidentally they they shoot another person thinking it was an animal.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: Is that wrong?
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Are there consequences for that?
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Sure, there's always there's there's there's always consequences of all of that.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: But was it the that premeditated taking of an innocent life, like murder?
9:05
SPEAKER_00: That's where the distinction, that's where the court system has to come in.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: And then the killing and warfare and the self-defense, and then the judicial punishment, the capital punishment.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Those things are also discussed in in the Bible, but only one is is utterly condemned, which is the murder, the taking of an innocent life.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: In Numbers 35, 30, whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: So that's where we uh come to the distinction between those five: the murder, accidental, killing, and warfare, self-defense, and judicial punishment, that's where the difference comes in.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: Is now the witnesses, the jury, uh, the you know, the defense uh uh uh attorneys and uh the uh prosecution, they've got to present their cases, and that they come to the best result of the crime that was committed.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: But so in this case, now by the time we get the numbers, now evidence matters.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: And now, when in order to have evidence, notice it says of witnesses.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: It's not just one witness, it's witnesses.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: So now we've got to have multiple witnesses, and that holds true all the way through the Bible that there needs to be multiple witnesses.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even the Bible says where two or three are gathered together.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's more than just a church service.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: When if two or three people can get together and agree on something, God is in it.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: And he actually holds, he act that actually holds true with the church.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: We can read about this later.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: We can study this later.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh we've actually I've actually done a little bit of a study on it before during uh Articles of Faith, I think it was.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: But God will back what the church says when the church agrees, as long as it's doing it in good faith and in congruency with the scripture.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: So that's why some of these little things that, you know, convictions that churches have over another, as long as it's doctrinally sound, like going into a church that you know says that you have to wear a dress or you have to wear a tie.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing biblically against that.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: And heaven will support that, according to Scripture.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Heaven will support that because they're trying to do a good thing and they're not altering God's doctrine.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: So in this situation, you've got to have the mouth of witnesses, and that's where evidence comes in into play.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: But then God gives us, if we go a little bit further, God gives us the government, the law of the land, authority that He does not give to me personally.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: See, there used to be that personal before there was a court system, before the world was even organized in that way.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: If somebody killed, you can go back and read this one.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: If somebody killed someone, if they were a murderer, someone for that family could go and avenge the blood of their relative or their friend or someone, they could go and avenge that blood and kill the person that killed them.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: And that's why in the Bible it talks about seeking the city of refuge.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: And there was actually a law for that, that if a man went to the city of refuge, which the Levites were uh were a tribe of refuge, that people could seek refuge in the Levite tribe and couldn't be killed for the murder.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: So that eventually that went away as the court system came in and there was more witnesses, it wasn't more, it was a little less archaic than it used to be, people living out on the land and there was no organization to it.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: But by the time we get to Romans 12, verse 19, it says, Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: That's not talking to the court system, that's not talking to the state, that's talking to you and I.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: We as Christians are not to avenge or revenge.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: We are not to hunt somebody down and to repay evil for evil.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: We don't become the judge, the jury, and the executioner.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: And then just a few verses later in 13.1 of Romans, it says, Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers, for there is no power but God.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: And then he goes on to say just a few verses later in 13.4, for he is the minister of God to thee for good, but if thou do that which is evil evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: And that's very important.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: Because Romans 12 says, Don't avenge yourself.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Romans 13 says, God has established civil authority to punish wrongdoing.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: And those are not contradictory verses, they're two different roles.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: For the Christian, we are to forgive, we are to refuse personal vengeance, we're to love our enemy, pray for those who despitefully use us, all the all the things that the Bible tells us.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: But for the government, the government is the one who has to investigate the crime to protect society, determine the guilt, and administers the lawful punishment for that.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: So the church has the gospel, the government has the sword.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: And those roles should never be confused one another.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that goes all the way back even into uh the first century, whenever the Jews were not allowed to put to death one of their own.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: Now, again, this is before organized government, this is before organized uh civil trials, everything.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was even Christ's trial was it was a kangaroo court.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, I mean, who knows, we may still have a lot of those today, but what the Bible says still holds true.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Now, we get back to the forgiveness.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: If we're a Christian, we're supposed to forgive.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: This is where a lot of us struggle.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of us have been wronged in different ways.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe not through murder.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: If you're listening to this and you do have that in your life, I'm I'm so sorry to hear that.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: And I pray for you that uh the Lord will ease that pain for you.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: But we've all been wronged in some way or another.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: And this is where a lot of Christians struggle because we hear, well, what if the murderer becomes a Christian?
14:55
SPEAKER_00: What if they give their life to Christ?
14:57
SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful, that's great.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Praise God for that.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Because the gospel is powerful enough to save even a murderer.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And Paul even participated in the persecution of Christians before he was saved.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: Moses killed a man.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: David was responsible for your eye's death.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: But God gives grace that can reach those sinners.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: But forgiveness, that's not automatic.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Forgiveness is not automatic, does not automatically remove the consequences of that.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: A thief can be saved and he still owes restitution to those he stole from.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: A prisoner can be saved, but he still remained in prison.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: A murderer can genuinely repent and still face the sentence imposed by the law.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Those things can coexist.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: In Luke 23, we're given uh an extraordinary example of this.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: The thief on the cross beside Christ.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: He says, Dost thou not fear God?
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
15:52
SPEAKER_00: And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: That's what the murderer said, this thief on on the cross.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: He said, We indeed justly, he admits the civil punishment, he deserves it.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: And then he turns that right after that, and one of the most beautiful verses, Lord, mirror me when thou comes into thy kingdom.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Jesus says back to him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Jesus forgave him.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: But he didn't allow him to not die the punishment.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: So mercy and justice are not enemies when we're talking about capital punishment.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we uh speak as though we have a choice.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Do we believe in mercy or do we believe in justice?
16:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, they coexist.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Look what Micah 6 and 8 says.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: He says, He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good and what doeth the Lord what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, as justice, and to love mercy.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So we're supposed to do do the just thing, but love mercy.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: And that's tough.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a tough that's a I that that's where we say a lot of times that the the lines become blurred sometimes.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: Because those go hand in hand.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times people can't see that.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: Biblical mercy doesn't require us to pretend that evil didn't happen.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: And biblical justice does not require for us to enjoy seeing someone suffer.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: There's no enjoyment in the capital punishment of a Christa Pike or others.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: There's no there's no enjoyment in that.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: We don't rejoice in that day.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: The crime deserves the punishment.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, we pray that this person has changed their life.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: We pray that Christa Pike, whenever she does close her eyes in death, you know, who knows when that will be, but whenever she does close her eyes in death, we pray that she has turned from her evil and wicked ways, which is well documented through the whole case.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: And we pray that she's given her life to Christ.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: So that's where we're at.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Ezekiel 33 to 11 says, As I live, as saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: God doesn't pleasure in that.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: That the wicked will turn from his way.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: So this bloodthirstiness, you know, that's out there in the world of uh it's not that we are, you know, clapping our hands wanting wanting the the punishment of this lady or or any others that's on death row at this time.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Now what I think where the problem comes in for a lot of people uh is the length of time.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where one of the big problems is.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: There is no reason why uh when a conviction is found that someone needs to sit on death row for 15, 20, 30 years.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what is the reason for that?
18:47
SPEAKER_00: I understand that there are wrongful convictions at times and there needs to be appeals made and and and and th those processes need to have time to happen.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: But 30 years?
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes 40 years.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, people have committed crimes as teenagers and are put to death whenever they're, you know, old gray-headed men.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what now what are we doing?
19:10
SPEAKER_00: There there's the consequences uh must be reaped and it must be done swiftly, and it must be handled in in a in a way that is uh respectful of the life that is going to be taken, but in honor of the innocent life that was taken.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's there's so many things wrong in this very situation.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: There's so many things wrong from the beginning.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: There was the evil of the the the taking of an innocent life.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: The the the court system got the the process right, but there's so much bureaucracy and red tape and things in the court system that it takes you know way too long to process all this.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: And then the appeals process for years, for years and years and years.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: That's that that's wrong.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: And then the way it was handled is wrong.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of things wrong in this case.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: I'll that is there's no question about that.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: But the question about capital punishment for Christians is already answered according to Scripture.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: It's not a very popular take, even in churches today.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna be a very popular opinion, or or it's not really an opinion, it's not really popular evidence of what scripture provides for us.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: But it's one that we ought to stand for if we're a Christian.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: But I do know one thing we all need to do.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: We all need to remember the victim, number one, and we all need to pray for everybody involved, because nobody wins in this situation.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us today on seeking approval.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, our faith oftentimes grows in quiet places.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: I hope today's conversation gave you something worth carrying throughout the rest of this day.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: And join me, Dr.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: Chris Smelster, again next time as we continue thinking, learning, and listening together.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Until this grace peace to you from seeking approval giving the truth.