Latest / Europe Calling Podcast / #275 Europe Calling “Elections in Israel: What happens now?” (EN)

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#275 Europe Calling “Elections in Israel: What happens now?” (EN) · Europe Calling Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 2: Welcome to this two hundred seventy-fifth episode of Europe Calling.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: So my name is Maximian Fries and I'm the Managing Director for Europe Calling together with my colleague Amelie Passmanns, who will be hosting today's webinar.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: this evening We'll speaking mainly in English.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: today Should you need assistance?
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: we have two interpreters on hand.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: You can select a language using the small globe icon at the control bar On mobile devices.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: This is often found under more than three little dots.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I'll do the introduction and the organizational announcements in German before switching to English so that we all speak the same language.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Now as for today's topic, of course we're going to be dealing with the elections to the Israeli parliament, the Knesset.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Today were are gonna take a look at their results.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: The government forming will take a little bit role of Arab parties As well.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: is state democracy And situation civil society in Israel at large?
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: To this end, we've now joined forces for the third time with Raluqa Ghanian Zazim.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Zazm is Israel's largest campaign movement.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: It's a movement in which everyone Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel works together to understand peace and strong democracy.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: ZAZIM is an sister organization to the German group Kampakt and operates in very similar way so that you know who they are in stand-for.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Thank You very much for joining us again This evening.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Also joining us is Dr.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Amir Fakhuli, he's the academic director of the Center for Bionationalism at The Van Leer Jerusalem Institute.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: his work focuses on Palestinian politics within the context of Israeli citizenship nationalism minority citizenship political boundary drawing interdependence and Jewish-Palestinian relations And with these two guests we want to take a look at Israel after the elections.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Of course We also want To Look Beyond That.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I very much look forward to it.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Before we begin, a few organizational announcements.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Firstly A big thank you for those people who made this evening possible.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: These are our thousand nine hundred and forty-eight supporting members Here at Europe Calling.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: We're proud To be one hundred percent funded by small donations.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: You can support our work with as little as two euro per week.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: You'll find the link in the chat.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: As always With Europe Calling.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Today you're using Slido for this.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: You'll see the link in the chat shortly.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: like I said we had around a thousand registrations.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: So with Slido, you can ask questions and read the question of others that interest you most And Emily will make sure your questions find their way into discussion.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: As always Europe Calling will be recorded then posted online on YouTube as a podcast.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Please bear this in mind when asking questions.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I will now continue in English so our guests and partners from the region can all directly understand me.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So speaking of partners, as I said already this webinar is only possible because of our cooperation with Sassin – The largest campaigning community in Israel a movement of citizens Arabs and Jews working together for democracy equality giant active civic engagement.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: We are very grateful to Sassim's co-founder executive director Luca Ganea who is organizing this webinar with us.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: And Raluca will start off with a keynote, then followed by Amir Fakuri his academic director of the Center for Study of Bionationalism at the Van Lier Jerusalem Institute.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: After two keynotes we'll go over your questions and that's all from now!
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: We get going with Raluco's Keynote.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much and take the floor please.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, and I'm really especially happy to do this together with my friend Amir.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Because it's very true that the society in Israel is very much polarized but so many of us can work together on a better future for all of us So i am grateful.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: So as you may know, we had elections last week in Israel almost a week ago and I really start from the basics.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: We have a parliamentary system which means it's not like in the United States where one party is winning at otherwise losing.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: but anyone that wins the election, win it if they can form a coalition.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: A coalition that is composed of different parties.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: so we're talking about two different blocs, the Netanyahu block, the current prime minister.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: for too many years under him October seventh happened, and we know now that he was informed in advance but didn't do anything to stop it.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Under Netanyahu the judicial overhaul destroyed most of Israel's democratic gatekeepers' thresholders and has polarized the society more than ever.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: In Netanyahu's government, there is a minister that was accused.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: in the past two of them actually were accused in a pause Jewish terrorism acts violence against Palestinians And one of them is internal security Minister Benville That under his governance The number Palestinian citizens that were killed in violent crime is sky high.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Just today, another two men were killed which bring us to two hundred and thirty people human beings.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Palestinians of Israel are killed only this year And... Of course the war in Gaza.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: not only the genocidal war in Gaza that Netanyahu is, and his government he's responsible for but also the promise that Netanyao has made to us as citizens of an eternal war.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: He plans on living a super-sparta isolated from the world using Bitcoin or whatever different economy which only suits countries like North Korea.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: And his last threat before the elections was, if you don't vote for me then a nuclear bomb will fall on Tel Aviv.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: So this is one block, Netanyahu and his partners in crime.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: The other one, the change bloc... ...is composed of center-center right,... ...the former Labour Party.... ..and Arab parties.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: we can maybe Emily show the division of the seats.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: So what you see in red is Netanyahu Block, his own party The Likud which got the biggest number of votes.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: that needs to be said.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: but the vote they get was actually taken off his partner.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: so it didn't reach such good results, so altogether the Netanyahu block doesn't reach a majority.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: The majority is sixty-one seats in the parliament and Netanyah has fifty three.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: it's very far from the majority he clearly lost.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: now here we see division between the Arab parties or Jewish parties which is here divided into two parts as the Israeli media has been doing for a very long time, too long.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: And by that digitizing and excluding the Arab parties from The Change Block and contributing to that exclusion.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: but if you look at The Change block in its all together with the Arab Parties then it's a very clear win and we shouldn't look at it without it because Palestinian citizens of Israel are, as their name says equal citizen.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: They're supposed to be there's citizens.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: that is supposed to Be Equal And Their vote matters.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: It has to matter if you want To be a democracy.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: The truth Is That the Jewish Part or the mostly Jewish part Of the change block mainly Eisencourt's party, Eisencourts former chief general in the Israeli military and relatively new politician was hoping that he will only need a small addition of support for our parties.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: And not too much so.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: it would be more easy to digest.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: And the campaign that was run didn't put any emphasis on the role that the Palestinian citizens will have and should have in their Israeli politics, but it was focused on trying to shift voters from the other bloc.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: But as we see in all of our countries over recent years, the polarization within societies is so big there's no shift between the blocks.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: There isn't really a shift in-between the blocks, so this is a strategic mistake that was done by these parties but hasn't got parties and arrest.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: And now The only possibility to form A government Is with the other parties?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: People like Amir I will say well This is just the natural thing you know.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: So if I mean all of you Just think about it, that twenty percent of our citizens their vote is conditional and usually doesn't have an impact.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense in a democracy.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: so it should be the easiest solution but unfortunately its not.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: But nevertheless Netanyahu himself knows he has lost.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: We can take down maybe this slide for now.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Netanyahu himself knows that he has lost.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: This is why his now promoting a couple of different scenarios in parallel.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: First of all, it's trying to build the momentum for our very own January six.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: as in the raid on Capitol Hill.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: He's claiming that elections were rigged by Arab voters and because of high turnout which is absurd because they are voters and Americans speak more about it, of course.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: They voted to save their lives from Bencville and Netanyahu's government.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: It's as simple as that And I myself together with my team and hundreds of volunteers we were in the negative on election day To make sure that elections are being fair.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: people in the Naghev, bettering community than I have can access the polls.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: And they could speak maybe a little bit more about it in a minute because extremists from the right were trying to disturb and not allow elections to go as planned.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: so we needed our protection.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: We know firsthand that everything went as should be at fair elections.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: So this is one scenario that they're trying to promote.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And it's important to say, all the legislation that the Netanyahu government has passed before it went into its final summer break was meant to undermine their rule of law and prepare for these moments in which they will say no we are not listening.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: What we say is the truth and what the former election committee that has checked all of the election polls, it's not true.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: So this one scenario they're promoting because Netanyahu controls the police through Benkvir and says he appointed to the General Security Services a man who was accountable for him.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: It's hard to say how this will develop.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: The other scenario, unfortunately is a war with Iran—a completely political war.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: We're waiting for the midterms in the US because Trump is not allowing Netanyahu to start a war before the midterm but the mid-terms are tomorrow and then on Wednesday Maybe we are in a war in Iran.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: In these scales that has been created it will be easier to enforce the third scenario, which is a post-unity government.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Netanyahu has different columnists from the right trying to plan this idea but you know nobody buys these anymore hopefully because everybody that has bought in the past has lost.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: If you can count on one thing regarding Netanyahou that you can never count on.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: So any unity government is actually a Netanyahu government, and he will never give up his seat in his power.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: The fourth scenario is repeating election which means instability Which means we cannot pass important laws like budgets That We Cannot Help.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: The urgent things that need to be done in Gaza, the West Bank with Jewish terrorism against the Palestinian residents there and the farmers.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: And within Israel everything is a mess like the country's falling apart.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: just during last few months There was serious events showing how low we sank.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Israel got one of the last places in the world, international education exams.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: We've lost all the advantages we used to have as a country.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: The level of education is very low and the response from Ministry of Education was let's cancel the exam next time.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I just don't do that.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: So this is an education on water, rely on desalination of water.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: We don't have anymore enough rain for drinking water, so we have desalination factories and there's a series of problems with investing in the infrastructure.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: these And just one month ago... ...we were facing very severe crisis around drinking water because that also probably was striving on sewage.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: That came from Gaza because Israel is also refusing to take care of that.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: so the price, it's like in a Greek tragedy The sewage for Gaza that Israel doesn't take care off came through the Israeli shore and feeded a seaweed that blocked the compressors of the desalination factories which meant we were very close not having drinking water.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: And instead of treating it as a serious crisis, the government has just bought and spent millions on buying new compresses like couple times per week until the seaweed went away.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: next time this will end also two quarters that we don't have in the natural reserves.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: so no reserves left nothing left to deal with.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: This is how they deal with crisis.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: And because it was so close to the elections, we didn't want anyone to know about it.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: So the media didn't write about.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: almost The minister said everything's okay.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: this is how things work here.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: and then We had that almost strategy of fly Dubai flight.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know if people know but there were a terrorist pilot That wanted to crash the plane into Tel Aviv And it didn't happen because of the self-resointment some of the passengers, but it revealed that there's an ongoing security breach.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: That is not being dealt with and its based on corruption in the Ministry for Transportation.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: I can go one another.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: this was just a couple examples to add what i said at beginning numbers of Palestinian citizens being killed in violent crime, while the government is just as taking all the budgets allocated for that.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: In previous governments away from dealing with that it seems like they're happy.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: people are killing each other on streets so nothing's functioning.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: So this reality.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: we came to elections and its really a matter survival First of all for the person citizens, but also for all of us like if we want to live To leave and have drinking water in our proper education really.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: The basic things are not leaving a super spartan that kills everyone around it And and and is an internal war eternal war with its neighbors.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Then this government has to go.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: now We have this unique opportunity of replacing this government, death and corruption.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And these possibilities only exist with the Arab parties.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: it shouldn't be like that because again they are twenty percent off the citizens of Israel.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: It should a very clear choice.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately Netanyahu as always even though he knows what has lost.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: This is why he's taking all radical scenarios, because he knows it cannot form a government.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: He's still setting up the discourse and the media is playing along and many of our politicians are playing along And yes said the framework saying that The vote of the Brazilian citizens doesn't matter as...and It's not legitimate in almost everyone mainstream media is paying along.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Now let me shift.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: what is needed to form this coalition is very big because the public opinion hasn't been prepared for that before the elections, unfortunately.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: It should have been.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: we tried to do it but we were almost alone in that as a team and now there's...it really takes a lot of public courage that I hope.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: uh that um The heads of the parties of the change bloc will have one of them Of course has said from the beginning yeah you go on From the Democrats former labor.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: they support the government with the Arab parties.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And Eisencote is a most important one, Bennett also... ...is also important.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: these are two big parties in the blockchain, in the change block.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Bennett actually sets in the Government with Ra one of the Palestinian Parties in the previous government, and it was a very good partnership for them.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: So this might... For them also.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: it may be possible again.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: The third party, Lieberman's Party is different story because Liebermant actually he has all of their soft right center-right whatever but Liebermann really have hard line right.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: He's against Netanyahu But there are many rights wingers and racists.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: to be honest He's now blocking this option but he doesn't have so many mandates.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, eight mandates is not that much and in a survey published on one of the two big TV news channels just two days ago there was clear majority for between the opposition voters for a coalition with the Arab parties.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And it includes even Lieberman Party, forty-seven percent of his voters support that and more than ninety something percent from the Democrats close to sixty percent from Liebermann, from Bennett's and Eisencourt's parties.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: so its high majority.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: One last thing I want say is that the gap between Netanyahu's block, again, fifty-three when you need sixty one to be able to form a government and the opposition.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: The anti-Netanyahu Block if we call it like that.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: It's very clear that the Arab parties are part of this.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: In Serbia, you name it.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: In all of these places there was a very small majority but only in Israel.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: this big wind that we had is not being translated into the feeling overwind and to the motivation going forward and forming this coalition no matter what.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: It has to do with many reasons also the lack of a positive vision that this camp doesn't share together.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: We were all focused on these years in the anti-Nitanyahu, for very good reasons but we didn't put enough resources into actually building the future and the vision to have here with our neighbors.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: so thats one problem that is preventing it the lack of a positive vision that unites the camp.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: And, in the nineties we had Rabin formed a coalition with support from the Arab parties and he went to the Austro peace process without support.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: He was assassinated for doing both.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: We're going into the peace process support of the Arab voters.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: And since then our society has gone into much more, and not only to the right wing.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: but now after the elections there are many short videos over Rabin's last interview that have been circled in social media.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I don't care, even if only have sixty-one votes.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go for my policy.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: this is what i was elected very clear and brave about it.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: the other thing that he's saying cannot tolerate these talk about a Jewish majority.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: It's unheard of That here in Israel.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: after everything happened with the Jewish people we will be talking about the Jewish majority.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: This is racist not legitimate.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Ever since then, we have shifted so much to the right that this is not clear anymore.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: And the boundaries of what is legitimate in a democracy and what defines a democracy has shifted.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: but now it's okay to talk about racism foreign against human rights for an again everything goes into very... Netanyahu isn't alone is very much responsible to a lot of this, where the discourse has went.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: He's a master in incitement.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: he had been since the nineties and he contributed a lot now together with mainstream media.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: but other factors that we are at what will come from these elections?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Is it really an important test for the Israeli democracy.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: We did stay a democracy, plotted in many things to repair but a democracy that treats the votes of all its citizens as if they're equal this very basic notion of democracy or not?
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: This is the question on.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Raluca for starting off this webinar.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I would like to ask two questions directly into your talk now.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: so we looked at the kind of seats and how they are divided between parties.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: actually from two people asked if there's any possibility to break up the blocks that you're talking about?
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: So then turn on your block in a change block create bigger coalition especially since Eisenkott also said that they refused to work with the Arab parties, and at least kind of not working for very far-right parties.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: And a second question is if you said that the Netanyahu Block lost many votes where did it go?
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Did they fluctuate between the blocks or did they fluctuated in the parties within them?
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: So, I mean it's just a fact that the current parties in the coalition of Netanyahu now have lost.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: how many votes is it Amir?
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: The mandates like twelve mandates they've lost.
• 28:24
  Speaker 0: They were
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: fifteen mandates and
• 28:27
  Speaker 0: there are now fifty-three.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Partly, the reason for that is they were not that well organized.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: The party's in that block and there are a few small parties who didn't pass the minimum threshold.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: but it only partly the explanation.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: But basically this what happens when you're responsible to an awful massacre of your citizens And offer them eternal war?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: I would hope that, you know...I have friends.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: My personal friends were there in the south of Israel on October seven and lost family.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: We also... Amir and I. we knew people who were killed there And we lost partners There In these people.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: my friends are really offended by their results.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: I really offended that Netanyahu still has people voting for him after that.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: But yeah, he lost fifteen mandates because of what happened and the people who stayed with this block from even before... Of course before October seventh a judicial overhaul but from October seven then everything we know about what happened there And not talking even about What does it mean for the Palestinians in Gaza?
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Just as easily.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: citizens like in the most selfish way, people who hasn't changed their position regarding Taniao since then will never do it.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: So those have shifted between the blocks.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: did it back then ever since that are more decent people now?
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: It's two separate universes.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: we have different media outlets.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: its completely...like talking to.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: There's no common ground.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: We can't.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: there is no way to move people between the blocks.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: we have a completely different I don't know cosmological understanding of how the world works.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, and personally i don't Know anyone that knows How To Move People Between Blocks?
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard Of Such A like Any Good Idea of how to do it unfortunately not only in Israel but all over The World.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: This Is Situation at the moment.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: And regarding the possibility to have a wider coalition, first of all there's no need.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: A sixty-seven seats coalition is very, very wide.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: together with our parties we don't need more.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: and second they are only far right parties on the other side.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: They could used be like normal right wing party decades ago.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: it It's people who support genocide openly, really there is nothing no one to talk with.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: And the other two parties Benville party and Smotrich parties again are genocidal parties racist parties.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: I know we have German audience you don't like us too do To talk about these things but they're basically neo-Nazi parties.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: So, no.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: And the other two parties are Orthodox Jewish Parties and there is a very interesting situation happening back in the nineties.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: up until the early two thousands The Jewish Orthodox parties were very pragmatic.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: they cooperated with whoever would give them like budgets coalition negotiations.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: But the Orthodox population has also shifted a lot to their right, and for them it's connected with religion.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: so even more dangerous than just racism or being afraid of Palestinians because whatever many think that God had chosen Jewish people over everyone else and that they're better than everyone else.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: And their racism is very, very deeply rooted in the tradition.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Not only that now it's not about budget allocations anymore It's something else.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: It's building this country as an orthodox non-democratic party where there's gender segregation in the public sphere, where their religious court can determine on civil issues.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: These are things that were in the guidelines of the current government.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: they demanded and got.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Laws passed to allow gender segregation at the academy.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Laws were passed to increase the authority of religious courts over the civil courts on civil issues and family issues.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: So, no these people are not our partners in any way building this democratic future here?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Not at the moment.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: And two last things on this point.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: one some people in the left are putting these things together.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: They're saying, yes we should form a government with the Arab parties and with the Orthodox parties in fact that this is not an option.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: they look at it like if its the same.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: but it's not the same because the Palestinian citizens who were part of the labor force their studying academy there just normal citizens.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: The leadership of the orthodox citizens is keeping them ignorant, isolated and not part of the general society.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: It's a very different situation And they want to change the entire society To live under their rules.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: it's not the same.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: And it seems like if the debate is around drafting them to the army, and this has seemed to be a conflictual point.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Eisencourt not only said that he wouldn't sit with the Arapatis but also that he demands that the Orthodox citizens will go through the Army.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: We have an obligatory Army service here But actually the Army doesn't need these soldiers, every expert will tell you that.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: It's just a very demagogical way of putting things and putting everything on the militaristic nature in culture over our country.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: And what I would demand as a condition to have them being part of the coalition is the education program, because right now they don't.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: It means that they didn't learn civic studies history science English math.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: They don't learn in schools.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: The schools are segregated.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I don't care about them being drafted.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: it's not needed at all.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: what is needed for them to be part of a general population and society discriminating against the women and until they agree to that I don't think they have any room in the future government.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you, so it's always amazing.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: listening to youth like this has been like an all-the-web in us... The amount of new knowledge learning something about Israeli democracy is really super exciting even though It doesn't make one happy to hear all that, but it makes you know knowledgeable and I think this is super important.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much!
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: We really took a lot of time to do this and that.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I have many more questions also want you speak about, we'll do it afterwards.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: just wanted say at once Also there has been massive uptake in voter turnout right.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: so seventy percent is the seventy.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: eight percent actually which highest for twenty seven years or something.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: So maybe maybe I'm here You can touch on.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: decide was actually wondering whether thats coming from Arab community?
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: That's come in more form from expats with seen alot reports Germany when they European media of expats flying in from New York or wherever, from big Israeli communities to vote in Israel.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: So I wanted also how you see that on the turnout side of things because it could explain why changes are there and we've seen they want a gift to Amir.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: then have plenty time afterwards too to go in all detail and learn about this.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: And just when I want everyone who's joined a bit later, I'll introduce Amir once again.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Amir Falkoury is the Academic Director of the Center for the Study of Bionationalism at the Fanlier Jerusalem Institute.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: His work focuses on Palestinian politics within Israeli citizenship nationalism minority citizenship political boundary making, interdependence to Palestinian relations or other things we already touched on.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: And besides this academic work he's involved in public and institutional initiatives promoting Jewish-Palestinian partnership and is among the leaders of Land for All which actually was topic of and that the kind of co-hosting our very first, I think where we now together.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: so you want to watch it back then.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: This was also very exciting!
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: So Amir, great to have you as really one of the experts on under the question of Arab parties... We've touched upon them quite a bit but i'm sure you will go much more into detail about everything.
• 39:12
  Speaker 0: Hi everybody, thanks again for having me.
• 39:17
  Speaker 0: Just a minute.
• 39:18
  Speaker 0: okay I'm good here.
• 39:22
  Speaker 0: sorry i just would shut down the WhatsApp.
• 39:27
  Speaker 0: and thank you Roluca for such extensive and thorough portray of the politics here and, of course very much courageous.
• 39:40
  Speaker 0: What you've heard from Raluqa is anything near what we will hear from the amazing Israeli Jews in Israel.
• 39:51
  Speaker 0: so I appreciate this courageousness and your partnership with Raluquah.
• 40:01
  Speaker 0: Let me take a step back Before we get into the analysis of this, undoubtedly a historical moment.
• 40:13
  Speaker 0: I will argue that it is an unfolding constitutional movement.
• 40:18
  Speaker 0: I will argue that this is an unfolding constitutional moment, we are experiencing through second-order politics but it has its resonance or its deep impact in first order politics and constitution.
• 40:38
  Speaker 0: But again let me take a step back to the Second World War.
• 40:45
  Speaker 0: After the Second World War, we had this shift.
• 40:49
  Speaker 0: The global shift has gone from wars between state to intrastate wars towards within-state.
• 41:00
  Speaker 0: To be more exact it is conflict over the boundaries of political community usually known as the Conflict Over Who Owns State.
• 41:14
  Speaker 0: you will be less familiar in Western Europe with this conflict because, in classical liberal democracies the demos and political community overlap.
• 41:26
  Speaker 0: But countries such as Israel which is sorted a nationalizing state that proclaim itself it serves the interest of one group.
• 41:42
  Speaker 0: Okay, the Jewish majority by definition.
• 41:47
  Speaker 0: then the demos which is citizenry and political community.
• 41:54
  Speaker 0: Which are people that citizens who see legitimate to be part of ruling class does not overlap.
• 42:05
  Speaker 0: Okay, so the background of this whole political scene is that Israel is a nationalizing state.
• 42:14
  Speaker 0: It's sorted politically wise as an ethnocratic State or as Nationalizing State.
• 42:20
  Speaker 0: So you cannot understand the conflict and this is why Raluqa said to me it will be very difficult ,it would be odd To hear one-fifth of population obvious that they can be part of a governmental coalition, which is one manifestation of the political community or THE manifestation of a political community.
• 42:43
  Speaker 0: Fast forward to two thousand and fifteen when The Joint List has been established And by the joint list I mean coming together Arab parties in Israel.
• 43:02
  Speaker 0: In two thousand and fifteen, a major shift has an accord with the Palestinian politics within Israeli citizenship And this can be explained or described as moving from let's say a protest to politics that tries to become part of the executive power, again manifested by a governmental coalition.
• 43:41
  Speaker 0: This has several background reasons that motivated this shift.
• 43:47
  Speaker 0: when I say motivated the shift i mean the shift from prior paradigm prior three paradigms to be more exact.
• 44:00
  Speaker 0: The first paradigm, and please bear with me this I think it's important enough the first paradigm among Israeli, among Palestinians Israel was that they have to improve their status civic status within the Jewish state without challenging the nature of the State.
• 44:24
  Speaker 0: This paradigm prevailed until first then until the beginning of the nineties in the last century.
• 44:35
  Speaker 0: But, they adopted another paradigm that said that equality is well under this kind of regime cannot be fulfilled... ...under this current ethnocratic regime.
• 44:50
  Speaker 0: That's to say inequality in Israel isn't a bug but it's feature in system.
• 44:56
  Speaker 0: This was the next, second paradigm.
• 44:58
  Speaker 0: The third paradigm which surged after October...after the riots of October-October two thousand said that it's not even enough to discuss nature for the regime.
• 45:12
  Speaker 0: we have to discuss circumstances created majority and minority in Israel, that is to say the forty-eight war.
• 45:22
  Speaker 0: The new paradigm brought us into this constitutional moment as I will explain immediately.
• 45:29
  Speaker 0: it's a paradigm which tries to enter the political community of Israel.
• 45:39
  Speaker 0: It's trying via second order politics and justice.
• 45:45
  Speaker 0: And it's backed by two major motivations, one is the almost complete collapse of citizenship in Israel kind of groups and population in Israel, not only Arab Palestinians.
• 46:02
  Speaker 0: I will give an example when asked why do you want to enter a government?
• 46:08
  Speaker 0: When you ask an ordinary Palestinian in Israel Why Do You Want To Be Part Of A Government?
• 46:14
  Speaker 0: What Do You Want Your Representatives, your party be part of the government?
• 46:18
  Speaker 0: he would say because i need The Government To Fight Crime.
• 46:23
  Speaker 0: What is embedded in this reasoning?
• 46:28
  Speaker 0: that if you are not part of the executive power, You will not get protection even to your most basic civic rights.
• 46:39
  Speaker 0: And again This is relevant To all what is known as Israeli tribes Israeli ethnic groups.
• 46:46
  Speaker 0: The citizenship As a mediator between citizen and his rights from the state court, or from central government has almost collapsed.
• 46:58
  Speaker 0: This is why all populations in Israel are fighting to get into the executive power because if you're not sitting around a table and on it as they say goes in Israel.
• 47:15
  Speaker 0: The second major reason the middle class among Arab Palestinians in Israel.
• 47:24
  Speaker 0: And this is one of the biggest phenomenon here, and Raluqa touched upon it a little bit.
• 47:33
  Speaker 0: There's significant increase In the Middle Class Among the Arab Palestinians as well.
• 47:41
  Speaker 0: It has manifested a lot by A huge presence medical arena in Israel, twenty five percent of the physicians in Israel are Arabs or Palestinians.
• 47:59
  Speaker 0: Fifty percent of the farmers in Israel are Arabs.
• 48:04
  Speaker 0: Fifty percent, I remind you that the Arab Palestinian national minority is a big minority but it does not exceed twenty-one percent.
• 48:12
  Speaker 0: It's one of largest national minorities actually But they're over represented In their medical field and underrepresented almost every other field.
• 48:25
  Speaker 0: So this two major changes in Israel, one concerns the bigger picture of Israel.
• 48:32
  Speaker 0: The second concern is Palestinians have brought them to adopt this paradigm.
• 48:39
  Speaker 0: however This incredible surge In turning out I suspect it's highest surge that we know.
• 48:52
  Speaker 0: We have to examine it more, but this is unprecedented going from fifty percent to eighty percent to seventy-nine, seventy eight point eight in less than four years.
• 49:03
  Speaker 0: something to be contemplated.
• 49:06
  Speaker 0: and seriously I think it's safe to say that commentator, analyst and political scientist scholars agree if we thought what brought Arab Palestinians in the past was a sense of collective efficacy.
• 49:36
  Speaker 0: When they were invited as part that they potentially can influence and it motivated this collective to vote more.
• 49:49
  Speaker 0: Again, what's known here is the theory or paradigm of sense-of-collective efficacy.
• 49:56
  Speaker 0: This time It wasn't hope The sense that they could influence a political arena That motivated this surge.
• 50:08
  Speaker 0: It was existential fear that what happened in Gaza and happening in the West Bank will happen also to them.
• 50:19
  Speaker 0: And I really am not exaggerating with this, That for the first time since let's say The first decade of establishment of the state of Israel when This collective was disseminated to and fragmented, and collapsed totally after the f-forty eight war.
• 50:48
  Speaker 0: This was the first time that they felt that Israel is really changing That what they took from granted...that they can be discriminated against.
• 51:00
  Speaker 0: They already used to be discriminate against but now there are in existential threat Now senior minister threatening them in ethnic lensing almost on a weekly base.
• 51:18
  Speaker 0: This became mainstreamizing as well to threaten the national minority with ethnic lenses.
• 51:33
  Speaker 0: so they Felt and usually people feel politics.
• 51:38
  Speaker 0: They do not articulate it in big words, a complex concept like I'm doing right now.
• 51:45
  Speaker 0: they felt threatened!
• 51:49
  Speaker 0: And to be more exact... ...they felt that the three lines of defense that have enjoyed in Israel until recently Until the seventh of October has almost collapsed.
• 52:03
  Speaker 0: by these three lines I mean, first and foremost the self-restraint of the majority adopting some kind of political culture that restrains you from acting against the citizenship of minority.
• 52:25
  Speaker 0: This has changed.
• 52:27
  Speaker 0: almost all polls done in Israel shows a vast majority of the Israeli Jewish majority have adopted undemocratic fascist positions against the national minority and this is scaring for the national minorities.
• 52:46
  Speaker 0: They see it, they feel it...they hear it every day!
• 52:50
  Speaker 0: Second of all Israeli Palestinian politics has been molded and flourished in the nineties especially in the nineties, when Israel has increasingly tried to become part of what we know as a liberal international order.
• 53:16
  Speaker 0: It adopted conventions that protect national minorities and it enacted or adapted new constitution increasingly part of the international order, especially after signing the Oslo Accords.
• 53:38
  Speaker 0: However Israel now under this government is detaching itself
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: from
• 53:44
  Speaker 0: the political community and from the International Order.
• 53:48
  Speaker 0: And it's not an interpretation of us scholars.
• 53:55
  Speaker 0: I'm just mediating to you what politicians say.
• 53:58
  Speaker 0: We do not really care about Europe, we don't really care that all of them are anti-Semitic and does not understand what is happening... ...we don't care the UN let alone the EU!
• 54:11
  Speaker 0: We care about what the American Empire says.
• 54:16
  Speaker 0: And be more exact on what the Republican Party said.
• 54:19
  Speaker 0: So when this change is felt by the minority, because a national minority needs a liberal space.
• 54:30
  Speaker 0: Needs its state to be attached to the liberal international order.
• 54:38
  Speaker 0: So this is a second line of defense that almost collapsed, none of three defense lines had collapsed completely but they have been significantly eroded.
• 54:50
  Speaker 0: The third line of defence was the Supreme Court.
• 54:53
  Speaker 0: The Supreme Court in Israel has, until recently was the embodiment with a beacon of liberty.
• 55:01
  Speaker 0: It was fragile liberalism to some degree very hypocrite but the Supreme Court did protect the Arab Palestinians To a certain extent as compensation because this court did not do anything to protect the Palestinian subjects in the West Bank, Gaza.
• 55:32
  Speaker 0: So it...to a certain degree compensated protecting Palestinians with Israeli citizenship under same regime and you have understand that we are talking about the same regime which under it you had.
• 55:49
  Speaker 0: Palestinian citizens Jewish citizens, the majority of the citizenry and Palestinian subject.
• 55:55
  Speaker 0: all Of them are affected by this same regime.
• 55:59
  Speaker 0: All of Them Are exposed to The Same sovereign in Different constitutional status.
• 56:06
  Speaker 0: okay you have To understand that so?
• 56:11
  Speaker 0: third line of defense which probably maybe the most important line of defense, The Supreme Court is being eroded because the supreme court in Israel Is under a great pressure by the genocider right.
• 56:32
  Speaker 0: I call it this Genocider Right By Under Great Pressure.
• 56:36
  Speaker 0: and they saw It when the Supreme Court has collaborated with Bangalore to to rule out one of the senior representatives, uh...of the Palestinian national party called El-Tajammuah, Balad in Hebrew.
• 57:00
  Speaker 0: When they saw this three when they felt and so on that these three lines of defense are crumbling They turn out to vote because through the executive
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: power.
• 57:20
  Speaker 0: I will end with a third notion about that internal debate between two political strains within this collective.
• 57:33
  Speaker 0: One approach is led by Mansour Abbas and the Arab joint list Al Qa'im al-Arabi al-Mohadi, known in Hebrew as Raam.
• 57:43
  Speaker 0: The other approach led by the joint list.
• 57:53
  Speaker 0: The Arab United List who got eight seats, a tremendous achievement.
• 58:01
  Speaker 0: it doubled its power from four seats to eight seats A really tremendous achievement is leaded by Mansour Abbas and he's considered possible partner of government to government.
• 58:18
  Speaker 0: far
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: more
• 58:23
  Speaker 0: pragmatic, at least it's perceived this way by the Jewish majority and especially by the central left or central right than the joint list.
• 58:34
  Speaker 0: And I want to say that a major difference between two approaches among Palestinians within Israel is about what I named in my research, the rescue thesis.
• 58:54
  Speaker 0: According to this thesis The national minority of Israel has a moral responsibility To alleviate the condition of Palestinians at West Bank and Gaza.
• 59:06
  Speaker 0: They are not only a national minority that should seek to improve their constitutional civic status, but they have to use their citizenship out of moral duty or moral obligation and say it like in this world.
• 59:21
  Speaker 0: To end occupation at least improve the condition of their co-nationals living under Israeli occupation.
• 59:32
  Speaker 0: The second approach Does not deny that it's part and parcel of the Palestinian people.
• 59:40
  Speaker 0: bear in mind That sometimes people mistaken.
• 59:43
  Speaker 0: And they think we are talking about a new identity project.
• 59:47
  Speaker 0: No, both of them see themselves as part and parcels parcel of The Palestinian People.
• 59:52
  Speaker 0: however They say our situation their situation the situation Of the Palestinians In Israel is so bad that they do Not have the privilege to entertain the idea that they somehow can rescue their people.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 0: They have to rescue themselves, they are bleeding in the streets as Roluca said to you so we had to rescue ourselves.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 0: maybe afterward will be able to rescue our people in the West Bank and Gaza.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 0: This is a very heated an emotional debate among Palestinians within Israeli citizenship.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 0: this by no means theoretical academic debate, it's a real debate with two more sentences.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 0: In order to block the Palestinians from entering political community, Netanyahu and his partners are launching one of the most dangerous fear campaigns ever launched against national minorities.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 0: This Netanyah's son has posted two days ago.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 0: that will be done and executed by us, by Arab Palestinians in Israel.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 0: This is a dangerous incitement!
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 0: They are doing that because they're racist to the bone but not only because of their racism.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 0: That is the Arab-Palestinian community in Israel will become legitimate partner to the executive power embodied manifested by government and coalition.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 0: This bloc, we'll
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: lose
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 0: the government for decades.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 0: they do not have a majority within the Israeli citizenry.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 0: They maybe I have slight majority with them that Jewish Majority Albi ibn Ataniahu The current prime minister Understand that very well.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 0: That if Israel will become a real democracy and would incorporate one-fifth of the population into the political community, he will lose his government and his bloc And it will loose their ability to govern in Israel.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 0: This is a constitutional moment and this is why I opened it, said we are in an unfolding constitutional moment.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 0: In the crossroad where Israel State and Jewish majority will have to choose if they chose to block their fifth of population okay?
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 0: They would devoid the Israeli Democratic and nobody will.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 0: seriously, we'll argue that Israel is a democracy.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 0: If they incorporate it there will win twice.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 0: They would give real substance to democracy in Israel And they will legitimize The most stable partner for peace between the river and sea the Palestinian minority, who are the most stable group that opts for peace reconciliation usually under two-state solutions.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 0: So this will bring what is known as the change camp to win twice.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 0: but they have to be courageous enough to understand that.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 0: I will finish with that and sorry if i exceeded my time.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much Amir, we'll hand over to Amelie in a very second for the questions from the audience really have no very little residence and time in what kind of the media, on European discourse here in Germany.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: And abroad generally.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: so it's good to hear those other voices because all the other voices we can read are newspapers.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: but when want listen you will do that here.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: So thank-you for much.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: I know there many exciting questions hand over.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, indeed.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: I would like to start with two kind of clarifying questions for Amir that came up.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: and so we're talking about the yeah but they are citizens of Israel.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: And So there's different Yeah, different groups that when he talked about maybe just to clarify could you define who counts into The twenty one or twenty roughly twenty percent of the Arab citizens of Israel, what are like other minorities within Israel?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: And kind of under yeah... What are different groups you were talking about also with Palestinians.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: maybe just to give a quick overview.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: who is part-
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 0: A quick sorry if I did not clarify it enough..a quick clarification after the forty eight war which brought to establishment in the state of Israel There was an expulsion, or almost eight hundred thousand Palestinians have left their homes and left the territory that is now known as Papua-Israel.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 0: Or Israel in a green line.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 0: However... Almost one one hundred fifty thousand Arab Palestinian remains in its lands And after a huge debate, the Israeli government in nineteen fifty have decided to bestow them citizenship.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 0: Okay?
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 0: and they became the Arab minority, Arab Palestinian minority.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 0: so we are talking about the Palestinians that did not haven't been expelled proper Israel, okay?
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 0: And they are citizens of Israel.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 0: They have a legally formally constitutionally their citizens politically as I explained that they are discriminated and treated.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 0: Yes, I
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: think that made it clear.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: For everyone who will post again the link if there's more questions can still ask them.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: on Slido and a second question to clarify.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: So we were talking about two Arab parties already.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Could maybe just quickly say what they stand for?
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe also differentiates.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 0: Yes, we're talking about four Arab parties.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 0: Three of them have been established after the Oslo Accord one of which has been established prior to the Oslu Accords and this is an important to understand that The most let's say oldest party which is Hadash Is affiliated with the Communist Party.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 0: The second one, it is organized upon a national sentiments which emphasize the National architecture of the National sentiment or organize their claims around national minority language, okay.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 0: The third one is the Arab list for change led by the veteran politician Ahmad Tibi very popular in Israel.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 0: he was a former consultant of Yasser Arafat ,the head and it does not feed from a big ideology like the nationalist party or the communist Party, but it does represent let's say the conservative Arab middle class in Israel.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 0: The fourth party is led by Mansour Abbas let's say the political branch of the Islamic movement in Israel.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 0: Okay, so its language is to a great extent as of course Islamic religious and this is the party that I've mentioned it more inclined To be part of government And seen by certain parts a change block as the legitimate parter.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 0: They do not see whatsoever any party of the joint list, the communist members or the nationalists or ones represented by Ahmadiyyibi as legitimate partner.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 0: they're even willing to discuss that
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: so I would just want to jump in here.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: So basically numbers wise That would all it like a coalition against an internet.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: I would only work with All the Arab parties going in right.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: and so this is this is D This one when Raluqa, i think you said at the beginning as well which makes the situation also complicated because as Amir said So some of them are kind of coalitions or Ram especially It's more likely to enter your coalition?
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: Are the other parties, The Joint List are there even entertaining the possibility themselves to join a coalition?
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: Or is it only the truest party said no you can't enter.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: Would they actually go into a coalition?
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: maybe getting Raluca here in as well and also understanding bit of public opinion on the truities or illicit towards kind-of two Arab blocs?
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: Actually just right now was a group that both Emil and I are in we got some news about The Joint List is going to recommend Eisencourt as prime minister, uh...to give him the mandate of form-the-government.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: They do not want it be an active part of government.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: they don't have ministers and so on.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: you put them in a very difficult situation.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: American talk maybe more about that but they are proposing a safety net.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: make sure that Netanyahu doesn't form the government.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: And there are different ways in enabling a change government.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: You can be part of the government and active party, you can support it from outside or you can abstain.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: that's also an option.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: There're different way to play with it.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: That will make more digestible for both sides.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 0: I agree with Roluka.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 0: You know, since we started measuring the stances of Arab Palestinians or examining their willingness to become part aspiring to become part of a government and I think i will not surprise you if I tell you this is correct for almost all national minorities in the world that we want to become an executive one, to influence their destiny ,their state.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 0: but among the elites it's a new shift as I've told you which started uh in two thousand and fifteen.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 0: all of them want to be part of a government but they cannot be Part Of A Government that is occupying their own people.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 0: They Cannot Be A Gov-They Can Be Part Of The Peace Government Not Of A War Government If, if Isincote.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 0: If This Change Camp Chooses Peace?
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 0: They Will Find Them next to them in the government, if they choose a path of peace.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 0: Not the path of the genocidal paths or what do you call managing the conflict?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 0: If All Arabs will support their parties being part of a government because the Arab Palestinians in Israel I did not exaggerate when i said they are most stable force, stability group.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 0: When it comes to supporting reconciliation and peace for this region Because there would be one of them benefit, they will benefit a lot
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: from
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 0: this piece.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 0: Okay?
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 0: They will benefit form state of Palestine, sovereign independent State of Palestine.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 0: there would be that benefit for a democratic state of Israel and as you already understood the democratization of Israel an ending occupation is interlinked.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 0: to end occupation You have to democratize Israel in the sense that you have to bring into a political community one-fifth of population.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 0: So, internal democratization and decolonisation of West Bank and Gaza are intertwined!
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 0: And this is what Rabin understood by the way when they tried to democratize Israel.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 0: he understood That if I don't bring in this huge national minority i will not be able to decolonise the west bank I will not be able to put an end to the occupation.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 0: He understood that, but the problem is also in other camps.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 0: they are acting more violently and blocking this constitutional historical change.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I'm just looking at the time so i want to kind of try to ask as many questions as possible.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: So maybe if we can do a bit of rapid-fire round.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: There was one question is actually most voted up about disarming Hamas And so the understanding is that both blocs are calling for Hamas to be disarmed.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: What's the position of the Arab parties and would they go along with it?
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: Maybe Amir, if you jump in... Oh okay.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry Laranika!
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: If you want a go then as well.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: It's….
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: Hamas has agreed on being disarmed.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: That was part of Trump's peace plan But the Netanyahu government is blocking the implementation Of his already achieved Peace Plan.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: And what the two blocks are saying is not about disarmament of Hamas, which is of course a reasonable demand that needs to be implemented.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: But they're talking about destroying Hamas.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: and that's a different story because Hamas is not only... ...and we know from all over the world it isn't just terror that did October seven.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: It's a political movement, it has deep roots in the society.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: You cannot destroy and you can't eliminate it.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: And that is where all of the Arab parties in Israel have problems.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: They cannot say yes let's destroy Hamas because this means to destroy an entire political movement.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: So there are big differences between condemning October seven which they're all very clearly done since the very first day.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: And agreeing that Hamas needs to be disarmed and that Palestine should be one, like Gaza in the West Bank should be under one law or one gun... Under one government basically?
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: That's one thing.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: but to destroy Hamas it means So in one family you have people who are, I've been working with Hamas because this is the main employer and Gaza.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: And it's not something that they can do.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: so there's a big difference between these two things.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 0: Okay,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: thank you.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: Then maybe also to go and have something Raluca had mentioned before.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: so of course again the Tanjao.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: there's criminal procedures internationally but The corruption case internally.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: and then also Amir what you mentioned about, like racism in hate speech.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's any way that they will be consequences for example him going to jail?
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: Is it an actual possibility or how
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 0: is it looking now?
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 0: I remember one commentator saying that Israel tried and instead Netanyahu put Israel in jail.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 0: I don't see a real possibility.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 0: Netanyah has made his personal issue into link, to the fate of Israel.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 0: It's amazing that he succeeded doing it.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 0: probable scenario is that he will be offered pardon, what do you say in English?
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 0: I think yeah
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: pardon but
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 0: maybe a plea deal actually.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 0: A plea or a pardon to leave politics.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 0: this is the best scenario we can hope for and after a decade of legal procedures, I think that most of the Jewish Israelis and most of our Palestinians say just leave us.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 0: Just because he destroyed everything here we will need a lot time to fix the bureaucratic state to fix the relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel, To rehabilitate what he has done.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 0: He destroyed a whole geography of home for two million people.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 0: He is ethnically cleansing the West Bank.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 0: just leave us and let these people try these two peoples try to start this long way of reconciliation and repairing, it will be a long way.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 0: It's always better than the other ways.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: I agree with Amir.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: The problem is that we all just want him leave us alone.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: But when we do that, and allow him to get away with everything then it has a meaning on the rule of law.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: It will make the rehabilitation more difficult if you just let him walk away.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: so its dilemma but I'm sure like... If he really be willing to leave everybody would say okay!
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: But he's hanging into us.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: with fingernails.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 0: Yeah,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: just to comment on that I mean Donald Trump is at the moment collecting foreign autocrats.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: now Flavio Bolsonaro's there as well right.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: so it's like yeah i think probably you know what do say about the rule of law?
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: It's right but my feeling would be they've been a lot of cheers if they'd have gotten onto that plane and left under and never to return.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: But you know, I think that indeed he seems to be there in for a fight right?
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: And this is really it's very boring.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: sorry i just wanted to make that observation.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: yeah actually That was great kind of transition.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: because um There's another question.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: It's also about You Know Kind Of Connecting the global struggle and we've seen it now In Serbia For example with the student led movement and Also in Albania India So kind of.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: Really globally What is the situation of young people?
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: So Gerard was asking about students or Gen Z movements, like they happen in Europe now.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: Do they have a chance to also make it change in Israel?
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: how's this state of civil society or just demonstrations in general?
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: There are different ways to divide countries, and one way is to say if the demographic going in a direction of being more globalist or to the left, most of them democracy.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: Or they're other way an Israel belongs to their country's where that younger generation is more far right?
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: More conservative, more religious.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: there many reasons for that.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: we don't have time to go into it partly also because Most of the Jewish young people go to the army when they're eighteen.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of indoctrination that is going on, and there are places where religion in general society is very high.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: so yeah civil societies is thriving but it's based on over forty mostly
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 0: unfortunately.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah I
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 0: agree with Roluka I just want to say it with the fellows or friends abroad.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 0: It may sound controversial but i think we all of us should come to realize that if you think that Israel can only be changed from internal politics, You're naive!
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 0: However If you think That Israel will change Only by intervention From external politics You are incorrect.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 0: We need external intervention and we need internal politics.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 0: Verluka is a good example, it's wonderful initiative.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 0: project movement as an example for internal politics.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 0: however without the assistant everybody translate assistants how ever you like Without the assistance of an external international community This hundred years of war, who is now culminating into this vetful violent episode will not end.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 0: Interactable conflict needs intervention of regional powers and international powers.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 0: but we need also internal politics hopefully a partnership between Jews and Arabs within Israel, across the country.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 0: Across their geopolitical unit which is seen as homeland by these two nations to observe and positively convert this politics.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 0: but we cannot do it alone.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 0: These people need help And if you love these two peoples and this place, You have to intervene whether it be by incentives, sanctions, diplomacy.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 0: Every state will choose its steps but you have to intervene because These people alone would not able to end them.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 0: I don't apply here any symmetry.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 0: as well as regional superpower the Palestinian people, is a defenseless person with no army.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 0: So there's not cemetery here but there are interactability and intertwined fate between these two
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 0: nations.".
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so first of all I agree with what Amir said that we need this combination Of internal forces and outside help And Outside.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: health is Is very important when we are under the Netanyahu regime With sanctions and more.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: but it's also very very important if we have fortunate enough not even to have the best possible change government, but something in between.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: Not give it a hundred days of grace that European countries are planning on giving a change government.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: You need show from very beginning what is incentives for going into peace process and what will happen if we don't?
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: From first day.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: you use both tools as diplomacy And from the civil society, I think what we need is solidarity.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: As Max just said at the beginning, Zazim is part of a network that has sister organizations in different countries.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: one of them is Kampak in Germany and this way sharing knowledge tactics stories.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: you also have a sister organization in Serbia for instance.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: so it's very helpful not to be judged by civil society but knowing that we have the same goals and values, to try help each other.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much!
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's very hard now do closing moderation for this but if i remember back in these one-and-a-half hours together.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: One thing I probably will think about a long time is what Amir said.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: Both of you have said wonderful things, but Amir has said that this shift especially for Palestinian citizens of Israel voting and political engagement was about the self-efficacy right?
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: This hopeful doing something positive which actually is the idea of democracy right?
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: The self efficacy or self empowerment exactly about democracy is all about.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: and you talked about that shift, that it has shifted to kind of this existential fear.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: That if we are not doing this and be not being...not have a seat at our table-at the Table of Government Our rights will be there.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: well..we won't have rights.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: nobody would care for us right?
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: And This Is This Shift.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: This really is something I take home from this webinar to understand how, especially when a government turns further towards the right and Roswell Lucas said – if you have only one direction.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: This is what happens.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: And it's not only happening in Israel, by the way and not to minority like that.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: Palestinian citizens are happening many places.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: I mean we look at
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: U.S.,
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: this same thing right?
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: These people these minorities they get excluded They lose their sense of self-efficacy then becomes existential.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: What's happening there?
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: We see that globally In a push towards the right and those lines of defence.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: The three are also very important to everyone who watches this, should rewatch and rethink the lines of defence you mentioned.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: And we actually... You know, in Germany and Europe everywhere those lines of defense are actually common.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: They're not specifically Israeli constitution Lines of Defense like the Supreme Court's a self-restraint of the majority and international law.
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: Those kind of.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: this is what makes democracy and make international democracy possible.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: And freedom reconciliation.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: This is everywhere.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: That why this webinar wasn't really only about the situation Israel it was as well.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: But I think we see that We need to see whats happening there In bigger schemas things and to end with something.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: hopeful is exactly what you said.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: We now have the examples, the election results in Israel is a victory for everyone who fought against Netanyahu.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: I think, Ruka you made an important point even though the numbers could have been better.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: this has changed and it's a constitutional moment.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: so i can only wish both of your organizations in Israel all the very best that there will be luck There's also maybe luck involved, and there will be the fortune that this shift is now shifting back.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: And then you... That the constitutional moment can't use in a positive way.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: so best of luck!
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: A lot of solidarity from us.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: we'll stay on their topic.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: This was our third time.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: We spoke about it as if there would be fourth or fifth or sixth times.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: until well.. Until what?
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: There is peace at least because we should never lose hope.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: Don't want to say more, I could say much more.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: Just wanted invite you our next webinar which checks your hope and it's only in German I'm afraid.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: on Wednesday.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: we're starting a new series actually on Hope.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: It is called Lighthouses, Leuchttürme In Germany about projects that make hope That there can be anything.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: this time it's about green hydrogen, right?
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: This can also be hope.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: You know, hopeful climate which is something very important to talk about.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: so we're starting Hope on Wednesday and I think after that webinar today i also feel some hope because a lot of it is bleak.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: but you gave us some ideas for hope and thats...I'm very grateful for that!
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: That was a very long closing moderation But thank-you all have a nice evening.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 0: Bye bye.