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Jacob Fraser: The Sting of False Accusations · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: In every dark tunnel there's a glimmer of hope.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: In every painful moment, there's a strength to heal.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Surviving Abuse.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Some of you may already know him, either via TikTok or as a previous guest on our show.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: We have Jacob Frazier back with us.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Please reintroduce yourself in case someone is meeting you for the first time.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I'm not so sure if an hour-long episode of praising me is good for my ego, but I'm Jacob.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: We met under my pseudonym Bo Delacroix, for the adult content I do.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I think that was a year ago.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: We did a podcast on some very different stuff.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: That's what got me interested in the surviving podcast, when I had something that I wanted to talk about that was a bit deeper, a bit more sensitive.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: This is the first place I thought of.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: It was TikTok that brought us together and got us here.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: You sent me an email and was like you know what, Because of our show, because of the things you're doing on your own, because of a new relationship, because of all these factors that are playing in your life, I am thinking of different things and processing different things.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: The fact that you contacted me, that's the stuff that keeps me going.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad that I can make you feel that way, because that's how I felt when, very early into creating a social media platform that involved being conscientious about race and privilege and social justice, you contacted me really early on.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: It was so nice to have that affirmation that you always hope is happening, that you're hitting the mark with people and you're sharing something that's valuable, because you don't know if you're doing that.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: It was really nice to hear that from you, so I'm glad I could come back and do that.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, With that being said, I am going into this blind.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: You and I had some emails back and forth, but you did not go into detail.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: So wherever you're comfortable.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm doing the same thing because in my past and because of the relationships I've been in, I always had a tendency to overthink and try to over-process everything just to make my feelings and my experience feel valid before I showed up to talk about them with my partner or the people in my life.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: That's something I stopped doing this year.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: It's been huge in terms of creating more intimacy with me and my current partner and with my friends and everyone in my life.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I actually went around to a few people in my life and said do I do this?
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: They said, yeah, but you've always been that way.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Showing up more in the moment and more vulnerable and not telling a story that I've already planned out, and just actually sharing my experience has been invaluable.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: The thing that I wanted to come on here and talk about was something that happened in my last relationship, which was not the first difficult relationship I've had, but it was one of the first ones that I really was able to process and understand after I started going to therapy a few years ago.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I think this was me touching the hot stove.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: After learning that the stove was hot through therapy and seeing is this still something that I'm going to be drawn in by.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I have my distance.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: This relationship started in 2020, during the pandemic.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: It was somebody that I'd known for a few years already.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: We had connected years and years before when she got divorced.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: We were just friends and we slept together, sometimes when we were both single.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Then we reconnected.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: During the pandemic, I ended up coming down to Vancouver, the big city, to stay with her for a little while and see what the city was all about, because the whole world was shut down, of course, pretty quickly that ended up with me staying here longer term.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: She was just getting out of a relationship.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: We were just casually seeing each other for the first while, but a few months after that we decided to start dating.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I moved down here.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I moved in with her immediately, which was, looking back, one of the easiest things to see as a mistake.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I think I had a long history of letting myself be drawn into relationships that weren't intentional, that I knew weren't the best thing for me, but they felt like a place I needed to be.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Therapy really helped me understand why.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: That was why I was drawn in and what it was that was calling to me in these situations.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: It was nothing good, unfortunately, but it was something necessary that I needed to see through.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: We started seeing each other.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Overall, we were together for about a year and a half, or just over a year, I think.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: It was not a very functional relationship from day one.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: It was not starting from a place of clarity or a fresh start.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: She had just come out of a really abusive relationship.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: She had a history of having difficult relationships, and so did I.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: We didn't really acknowledge that.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: We just decided this feels good, so let's go for it, which, looking back, is not a decision I was proud to have made that far into my 20s.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: I felt like something I needed to explore.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: It was difficult from start to finish, from our communication to our relationships with other people, our boundaries it was looking back.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: It's so interesting to see they were just non-existent.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: We ended up going to couples counseling quite quickly after we started dating, which should have been a sign, but it wasn't.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: We thought we were doing the right thing.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: We went to counseling and we got a lot of really great tools for communication, but none of them seemed to be working over a period of six to eight months.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: We just felt like it was something we had to keep working at.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: We also started our relationship as being an open relationship, which, for those of you who don't know, just means that it's not monogamous.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: There are all different kinds of flavors of non-monogamy and open relationships, but ours was we didn't date other people, we would just sleep with other people.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: We had boundaries around communication with that.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: We tried that for about six months and it just didn't feel like it was working.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Looking back, it wasn't working for a reason.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: It was just such an opportunity for dysfunction and basically a place to assign all these negative feelings we both had about relationships.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: We would wait for the other person to do something that we could be uncomfortable with.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: If any of you out there have anxiety or depression or anything like that, it's a feeling that exists and it waits for something to be attached to.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: It waits for something to give it meaning Throughout the relationship.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: It was difficult, but I always credited myself with showing up and being present and doing the work, even though I knew that it wasn't good for her and I was not having a good time either.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: That seemed like the thing to do.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: We did that for six months.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: It was really difficult.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: By the end of that six months, we just decided we're both exhausted.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I think we've had enough.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: It's time to let it go.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: It's not working.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: If it was going to work by now it would have.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I'm rushing through this relationship timeline because it's not the good part of the story.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: We decided it's enough, we've had enough, we're not going to do it anymore.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: As soon as we made that choice, all of a sudden things seem easier because you can get along with this person, because you don't have to be in a relationship with them.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: All of a sudden, all of the pressure, all of the failures that you were feeling before have gone away.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: It's nice to just be with them.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: We still live together.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: At the time and we figured I was the one who was going to move out, we would give it a couple of months and I would take my time to find a place.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: After about a month of things going well, she said things are going well.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Do you want to spend Christmas together and see if maybe there's something worth coming back to here?
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: I said sure, there's no harm in spending Christmas together.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: This was late December at the time.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: We did and it went really well.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: She said is this something that we want to maybe come back to?
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: I said I'm going to have to think about it.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: I was going home, back home to Prince George to visit for about a week or so, about two weeks.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: I went home and I thought about it and I came back and I said I don't think this is going to work, unfortunately.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: I was expecting maybe some disappointment or maybe some understanding.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: That sucks, but I get it.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It wasn't working.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: An interesting thing happened.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: She got very angry and we lived in an apartment at the time and our neighbor was in Hawaii.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: She was looking after his apartment.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: She said can you tell me why you're so angry?
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Can you explain to me what's going on right now?
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: She said I'm just going to go and think about it for the night and stay at his place.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I said that's great.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: If you need some space, that's great.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: She went over to his place for the night.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I had to work the next day, so I went to bed.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I was woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of someone coming back into the apartment and I thought, oh, she must have forgotten something and come back in.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: No big deal, I just went back to sleep.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Then I was woken up again at I think it was about 5 am, earlier than I usually get up for work.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: I was up by her standing over me while I was in bed.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: She just woke me up and said you have to go.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I said what's going on here?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: It's 5 am.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Can you explain to me what's going on?
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: She just said you have to leave.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: A few months earlier she had asked for the password to my computer to look at some photos because we did some photography work together.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Of course I gave it to her.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: That's my password to everything to my bank cards, to my phone.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: It's the same passcode, I think it was four numbers.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: While I was sleeping she had gone through all of my things my computer, my phone, my iPad, my emails, things like that.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: She had found not really anything, just conversations I'd had with.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: There were certain people when we were in a relationship that, for dysfunctional relationship reasons, I was not allowed to stay in touch with.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I just reached back out to those people in a friendly way.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: We'd been chatting.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: I was wondering what did she find?
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: It seemed disrespectful to sleep with other people while we were still living together.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: I'd stayed away from that.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: I was just bewildered.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: She was like I found everything.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I said can you tell me what you're talking about.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: She just kept saying you have to go, you have to go.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I was still in bed wondering what was going on.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: While I was doing that, she started pulling my things out of the closet and putting them in the hallway and saying you have to leave, you have to leave right now.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: I was wondering what should I do here?
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: I had to go to work at the time, which seemed important in the moment.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: I got up and I got dressed while she was still pulling my things out into the hallway.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Then I realized she'd taken my keys as well.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: If I left the apartment, I wouldn't be able to get back in.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: She meant you have to leave for good.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I remember sitting there thinking I've tried to engage her in conversation.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: That's not really working.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: She just keeps repeating the same thing over and over again.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Should I just go to work?
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: I said, hey, I'm going to go to work.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: I am going to have to come back here.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: If you need space, I can find a place to stay for a couple of days, but I do have to come back here.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: I live here.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: I've lived here for a year.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: She said no, if you leave, you can never come back.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I have to.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I don't really have anywhere to go and stay long term right now, so I can stay with a friend for a week if you want me to.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: She just kept saying no, you have to go.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I said I'm going to come back after work and pack a bag and then we can figure this out.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: After we've both had the day to think, she said no, you can't do that.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I said I'm pretty sure I can.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: I have to.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I want to come to an agreement, but I think legally I'm allowed to come back into my home.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: She said no, I'm not going to let you in.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: I said I'll tell you what.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I'll give the police a call today and just make sure that I am allowed to do what I'm doing, what I'm saying, if you want.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: They call them a peacekeeping officer.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I said I can have one of them come by just so that everything's fine and he can let you know this man has rights to do this, but not this.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: And make sure that I know my rights and we rights and all that stuff.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: When I said that, when I said I'm just going to give the police a call and see if they can come and help us out with this.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: She hadn't looked at me the whole time.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: She wouldn't make eye contact with me, she was just throwing my things in the hall.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: That's when she looked at me and said if you call the police, I'm going to tell them that you sexually assaulted me.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I was standing in the doorway at the time and I thought I don't think I can stay here.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think I can be in the apartment beyond this moment.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I pulled out my phone, I started recording and I just said hey, I am going to give the police a call and come back later, but I'm just going to leave for now.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to go and we can figure this out later.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: That's a pretty serious thing to say, so I'm going to go.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: As soon as she saw me recording, she started saying she said what's a pretty serious thing to say.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't say anything.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Then she started saying things like I don't feel safe around you.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: I was like I'm narrating myself.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: She said I'm in the doorway, I'm about to leave.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: This is not me coming into the house, I'm on my way out, just letting you know that that's a really serious thing to say.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: She just kept saying I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't feel safe right now.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: I just backed out of the house and I went to work.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: It still blows my mind that I went to work and didn't take the day off.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I went to work and I thought about it for a couple of hours and I just thought I don't know what to do.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I have no idea what I'm supposed to do in this situation.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: So I called my lawyer and my lawyer said you have to call the police and tell them that she said that, so that it's on record that she threatened to do that, in case she actually does follow through with that.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Looking back, I realized that what she wanted was control of the situation.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: She wanted to be in control of what was happening, which is on impulse I'm sure we're all familiar with.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Once I was out of the house, she didn't contact me for a while and I messaged her and said hey, I need an overnight bag.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Basically, I'm going to find some place else to stay for a while.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: It was fairly amicable, I think.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Throughout that day she said yeah, sure, you can come back and pick up a bag, but while we were having that conversation, throughout the day I was at work and I was on the phone with my lawyer and she said I'm going to put together a letter on legal letterhead saying this man has a right to do X, y and Z.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: He can't do this, but these are his rights she wanted to put in there.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: We're aware that you've made this threat and it's not acceptable.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: We will take legal action if you follow through with this.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: I said I don't want to put that in there.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: It feels like it's just going to inflame the situation.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: I'd rather just stick to my homeowner's rights.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: She said I think it's really important and in general, you should listen to your lawyer.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: I said if you think it's important, we put it in there.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Sure, let's do that.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: She put that in the letter and it takes a while to put those things together.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Throughout the day we were chatting and the plan was I was going to come by after work, pick up a bag, that sort of thing.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: As soon as my lawyer sent the letter to her, it was just radio silence.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't hear anything from her.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: I called a couple of times.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I waited for a few hours around the house after work because I didn't have any of the medication, any of the clothes or things that I would need to stay somewhere else for a while.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I think that was again an instance where she did not feel like she had control of the situation.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: She wouldn't speak to me.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: There was a bit of pageantry to show that she didn't feel safe around me.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: She packed a bag and then insisted on.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: She tried to throw it out the window of our first floor apartment so that I could get it.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: There was an awning so that didn't work.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Then she just brought it down to the front door and then left and then buzzed me in so I could get it.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Then the next day I got a phone call from the police and they said hey, we received your first report, but we just have to call you to let you know that she did follow through with that.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: She did report or make a complaint of sexual assault.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it works different.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I'm sure it works different in all the different states, but in Canada people are allowed to make a complaint of sexual assault and then it's investigated.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: If it's valid, they forward it on to the Crown Council for charges.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: I went and stayed with a friend for a couple of days.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: One of my siblings flew out to see me during that time I guess she had called one of my siblings.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I'm still not sure I understand why she did this, but she had called one of my siblings who lived in Winnipeg to tell her that I was really upset that we had broken up and that there was a risk of self-harm and that I was in danger.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Basically, one of my siblings called me.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: They were great about it and they just said I already booked a flight, I'm coming out to see you.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: I think at the time I said that's not really necessary, but looking back, it was really nice to have them there for a week or two.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, they flew out to see me and of course the police wanted to follow up and I had to go in and make a statement and get a criminal lawyer.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'll stop there for now if you have any questions, because I know I saw in your face you didn't want to interrupt me during that part, but it's a long story, so please jump in anytime.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: You saw my page of notes, right.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Feel free to anything that I ask to tell me, to put a pen in it that you're going to answer it or whatever.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Gosh, I don't know where to start, so I want to preface with feeling like especially if you've been a victim of something we want to believe the victims what I'm about to say.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not directing this toward your ex or the person that you're telling the story about.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I'm just meaning this in general because I don't know her.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to try to be PC, but when false accusations are made that is why when the police showed up to my murder scene, slash rape scene they still question it, while I was laying there, potentially taking my last breath, and I hear about people making these false accusations I don't even know what word to use, like my blood bulls, like I'm sweating a little bit because it minimizes the ones that are real.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: And so one of the questions that I wrote down is what with you knowing this person?
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Was there sexual assault or anything in her past?
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Because somehow she knew that if I make this accusation, I will get my way.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder how did that accusation come about in her mind.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: How did she know?
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Why was that?
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Her grab on and go to?
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's safe to assume in general that statistically, all women have experienced some form of sexual assault.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: She had to to some degree.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Nothing like yours, although it's not a trauma competition, but yeah, that had been a part of her life for sure.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: But I don't know why that was what she went to.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I think she was at her wit's end to gain control of the situation.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: And even from my own ignorance and slash curiosity, I would like to ask.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: You said and correct me if I'm wrong, please but you said that you all went into this relationship open, but then you made the comment of you didn't feel like it would be right to sleep with someone while still living in the same house.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: So how were those boundaries drawn?
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And it's not that I'm saying there's a right or wrong, because whatever fits for someone's relationship fits and works right.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I've never been in an open relationship, so I don't know how that works.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: So I'm asking the question with all due respect and out of ignorance.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I think if we had been open at the time that we split up, it would have been different.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: But we weren't open at the time.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: We had only done that earlier in the relationship.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, so at some point you all set a boundary of let's not be open, let's just try to focus on us and our bubble.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly we decided this is not working.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: We want to put some energy into this.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: We should focus on each other.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, okay Got it.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: So I think that us being open was essentially just a tool.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Looking back, I realized it was a tool that she used to just treat me poorly, to elicit certain feelings.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Right, because a lot of the pattern of our relationship which I didn't understand at the time but now it seems very clear was she would draw me in with intimacy and then push me back away.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: And I think for her we even processed this while we were in a relationship that was a form of control, right, she wanted to feel safe and if I went too far she wanted me to come back, and if I got too close she wanted me to go away.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: She really pushed for us to have an open relationship, to give her some space.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: And then, when I actually engaged in the setup of an open relationship, then she said that doesn't feel right, I don't think I want to do this.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: And it was a tool to bring me back in.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: And a lot of communication was happening, but not a lot of it was working.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: And my therapist calls it drilling against a brick wall, because we learned so many communication tools but they just did not work because there was no space for them to work.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Right, we didn't want them to work.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: A question that I get that.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: A lot of my listeners have asked me and I will provide them resources and none of them are ever from me because it is something that I also struggle with, and so I'm going to ask this question because I'm hoping to learn.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: You had mentioned the statement of living in the moment.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I can Google that definition.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I can do the hashtag and search it.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the fuck that means.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I can't figure it out.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: When I was listening to your story and you were saying I want to live in the moment, but I moved in too fast.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: But then that part of me is that it felt good then, so you were living in the moment.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: So how do you I don't even know that I know how to answer this question, or how to ask this question Like, how do you decide what is living in the moment and what is healthy and what is not?
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Like, where do those boundaries lie and how do you get to that place?
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And I'm not asking for a friend, I'm asking for me.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Honestly I think it was.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: The breakthrough for me was just realizing that trusting my own instincts is not a good bet, because we're all told to trust our own instincts, do what feels right.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: But when you come from a history of a broken family, home and difficult relationships and those have been your role models for relationships and you haven't processed the issues you have with attachment, your instincts will inevitably lead you to the same place.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: This was the worst place they led me to, but they were always similar, the relationships I had, always very similar.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I think I was just following that advice blindly and thinking this does feel right.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try to do this in the best way possible.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try to be kind and communicate and have boundaries and do all the things that I also know I should do, but I think realizing that there was some deeper work that needed to be done to redirect my instincts and realign them with what is actually good for me, which I definitely had not done at that point- yeah, because when I think back on things, I'm like I'm living the moment because this felt good now.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: If it doesn't feel good later on, then that is the moment that I make the decision that it's time for me to leave or whatever, but not every, especially when there's contracts involved.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: When you're renting an apartment or a house, there's contracts.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: There has to be this boundary with living the moment but also being responsible.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: It's not all the same.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: The metaphor I've heard is it's like going into a burning house because the fire hasn't gotten that bad yet and you like excitement.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: So you see a burning house and you go in.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: You go, I wonder what's going on in there?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Probably something exciting.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I wonder what happened.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I want to figure it out.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: But then the house is eventually on fire and you have to leave.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: So if you're going into something that has an expiry date and has a time limit and you know that this is not going to be good for you long term, you can't go in the first place.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: You have to pick the house that looks boring on the outside, that's not super exciting to go into it first, but then feels like home when you get there.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: The last question okay, not last, but the question that I have now to lead us back into kind of where we left off is you had talked about the acts, had reached out to a family member and was stating that maybe you were in danger of self harm, and this person came to you.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Was there ever any justifiable reason for her to think you were in self harm, or do you think that her calling this family member and stating these things to make sure that you were killed was a form of guilt on her end?
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I definitely don't think it was guilt and I don't think the intent was to care for me.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: We were both told strictly by our lawyers that we could never have direct contact or be in the same room ever again.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: But over the next I want to say eight to 10 months she did a number of things that were just disruptive to my life and could never, really did not have consequences really, but she did things like.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: She called the police again I think six months after we split up to say that I have a photography website and she had modeled for me at various points and in some of the photos she was nude and I had done everything.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I was supposed to signed a model release, even though she was my partner.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: But she called the police to say that I had these photos up and she had called me so many times and I refused to take them down and I said they're my property, I'm never taking them down.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: And she called the police at midnight to come to my house.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: The police had to come to my house and knock on my door and say, hey, you have to take these down.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: This is not consensual or we'll have to take it further.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: And I said, of course I'll take them down.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I didn't even realize they were still there.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: But yeah, this is the first I've heard of it.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I also stole my identity.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I used a bunch of my credit cards not to really.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: She didn't take any money from me necessarily.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: She just bought a bunch of things at different places and had them delivered to my home as well as to her home.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: But when I saw the charges, none of them were things that she would have actually used.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: They were all just random, expensive purchases.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: So it's a number of things like that that I think were just to show me that she's still there.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: She still has some sort of influence on my life.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: She can still affect me if she wants to.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: So I think that was the first of those kind of actions, because I did not understand any of them and to this day I'm still not really sure what the point of those were.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I think that sometimes things happen to people and this is not justification to what she's doing, but it falls into that generational abuse and the fact that we as a society do not focus on the healing we focus on.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Where can I put a bandaid?
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: So I think that, speaking from someone and I've never done anything to this extreme but just speaking from someone that has made mistakes before out of being insecure and the fear of being forgotten, where my mind goes to when you say these things about her purchasing just what, necessarily to try to ruin your credit or run up these bills?
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: It was almost what I got from it was she wants to find the way that she can, within her bandwidth, that she is allowed legally, with cops and lawyers or something involved to remind you of her so you don't forget her.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: And again, that's not justification.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: It's all fucked up, but I think that we just get to this point where we don't think logic.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: And so when you were saying that, just at least about the credit card part, it's like when you get this bill and there's a charge on there for a 70s television that you didn't buy, going to this certain address, it's like, oh, I remember, insert ex-girlfriend's name into her.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: That would that brings her peace is what.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I'm creating in my head because you didn't forget her name.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I remember hearing Tony Robbins say, on something I watch on the internet, that one of our biggest human needs is significance.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: And he said the root of the violence epidemic in North America is and the rest of the world is the need for significance and the lack of care for mental health, because the quickest way to get significance in a moment is to stick a gun in someone's face and whether you love the person or you hate them, you want significance in their life.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: You want to remind them that you're there, and it certainly reminded me that she was there.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I know this will sound like a silly comparison, but everyone knows the whole meme of Mariah Carey saying I don't know her and who was Mariah Carey was talking about?
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I can't remember who Mariah Carey was talking about.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, so it's another famous person that had mentioned how their friends were Mariah Carey and so in the interview Mariah Carey was asked about this person and Mariah Carey was like I don't know her and that became a meme and it became a thing and it's still, 10, 15 years later, talked about all the time, especially if that person who I cannot remember which is going to piss me off I have to Google it.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: But that person and Mariah Carey, if they're ever interviewed, that's always mentioned.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: And I think the reason that stings is because the last thing anyone wants to hear is I don't know who you are, I can't remember your name.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I don't hate you, I don't love you, I don't even think about you.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know who you are.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Nobody wants to hear that.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: And so I think about that meme, a lot, about situations like this, and again, it's not justification.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: The actions that were happening were definitely fucked up.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: But then it also goes into the whole like why are we trying to put a bandaid on something?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Why are we not trying to fix this as a society?
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: And that's what starts boiling my blood.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: And as much as those instances were irritating to me, I think that need for significance was the reason that I stayed in that relationship, because I'm an adult man.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I should know when things are red flagged, sometimes Even the subtle ones, but the obvious ones were there.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: She constantly was lying to me and gaslighting me and I always thought of it as an issue that we were trying to solve together.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: I never thought of it as intentional to the point where when we would talk something through, I would write down the outcomes as we were talking about it and go I'm so glad that we worked through this and it means a lot to me that you admit that you were untruthful about that and then the next week she would say no, I didn't do that and I was like I have it written down but I shouldn't have needed to write it down to know that it was a problem.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: But I wanted that significance of making that relationship work and being in that relationship and being seen by another person so badly that I was willing to give up all kinds of security and safety and happiness that I could have had.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: And at one point she went to see a doctor because she was struggling with depression.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: She also didn't work the entire time we were in a relationship, so she was really struggling with depression and anxiety and she went to see a doctor and they gave her an assessment and they said we would like to give you another assessment for borderline personality disorder, because we think that's a big part of the issues here.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: And she said I don't think I have that.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And she came home and said I'm not going to take the medication because I don't think I have that.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: They gave me prescription but I don't think I have that.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: And that should have told me right there that this is not a place that you should be.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: This is not a safe place You're not going to.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: At the very least, you're not going to make this relationship work by staying here in close quarters with this person.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: And even towards the end of our relationship, I found out that she had been lying to me about a lot of things the entire time.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: We were in a relationship like where she would get money, for instance, because she was on EI, but certain times she would seem to have a lot more money than I thought that it made sense for her to have, and it turned out that she had been staying in touch with this person that she had previously.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: There was a situation where her and a friend had met this guy on a website called Seeking Arrangements I don't know if that's a US thing as well, but it's a Sugar Daddy hookup website and they had been paid to have a threesome with this guy which I'm a sex worker myself, I have no problem with that but she had stayed in touch with this guy and she had been taking money from him and sleeping within the entire time we'd been together.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: But even that was before I reconsidered staying with this person because that draw of if I am in this relationship, I have a sense of significance and value that I don't want to lose by leaving it.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: So I think the same impulse that made it such a bad place was the same one that created that space for both of us.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: If you find yourself going through your traumas and trials and tribulations just in life, and the fact that you're just a good person and you're open-minded and open-hearted, did you find yourself gaslighting yourself for her protection, even when things got involved with?
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Even when, like, the police were involved and the lawyers were involved?
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Did you find yourself battling with yourself on what was real, with the actions that were taken against you?
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Not with what was real, necessarily, but I definitely found myself the first time I spoke to the police, when the police said they wanted to interview me.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: My lawyer is not a criminal lawyer.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: So she put me in touch with a friend of hers who is a criminal lawyer and I gave him the whole story and he said normally my advice is never speak to the police without my presence or at all.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Let them do the work.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: But he said, in this situation it's so clear cut that this didn't happen.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: You should probably speak to the police.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And so I went in and talked to them and when I sat down with them I said I have nothing to hide here.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: I don't need to know, because I think they're obligated to tell you what their position is.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: So I said I don't need to know what you're assuming, what you've been told, what's been said against me.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Just ask me all the questions you want to about dates and times and our relationship and I'll answer them.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: And we went through all the questions and I found myself almost still trying to stand up for her and say I understand why she said this.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: She's really been struggling with this and she hasn't gotten help with this and she struggles with drug abuse, things like that.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: At the moment it made the most sense to protect myself, and it wasn't a public thing.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: This wasn't something that was going to be on the public record, where I had to look like I was still trying to be the good guy.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: So I have no idea why I did that, but I was still thinking outside of myself and I don't think it's because I don't like to think of myself as a good person necessarily, because we've all done bad things in our lives.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: We've all done things that have hurt other people.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I like to think of myself as a kind person.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: I try to think of myself in terms of my values.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: I value truth and honesty and compassion, things like that and I don't think I was really prepared to be with someone who had different values, and I think that's why I was stuck there for so long, because if I messed up, I would just say, hey, I did this, I'm really sorry.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I know it hurt you.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Let's try to work through it together.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: But it never occurred to me for a second that someone would lie to me on purpose just to make me feel a certain way, and so I think I was still trying to assume the best of her and say she did this thing.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that she did it because and the police officer even had to say he was like I'm not really interested and we don't really need to go into what you think her motivation was Like that's not necessary, you don't need to talk about that.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: He was trying to say we're trying to talk about you here, but yeah, I was still trying to do that and I'm not sure why.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you giving me some time to ask my questions.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: I hope that we didn't get so far off with all of my questions that you forgot where we were and where you were wanting to go, because I really want to hear the rest of the story.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: No, not at all.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I think my biggest question, the one that I still haven't answered for myself, is how I should feel about the idea of a vulnerable person a woman in this situation, but not always a woman, just the more vulnerable party accusing someone else of sexual assault in a scenario where it can't be proven either way, fortunately for me.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Again, I'm not sure why, but it seemed like what she told the police wasn't very well thought out.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: She had certain dates and times that she said this happened on, and she said I went to a party and I was drinking heavily that night.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: I was at a party with 30 people who all agreed to testify that I had two drinks, I think, and went home.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: She said it happened at a certain time, but the Uber Records show I wasn't home at that time, so it wasn't very well thought out, which I think.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I'm thankful that she didn't take the time to really think it through, because that puts everyone in a difficult position, because if it really was my word against hers before this happened, I would say that you should believe her Categorically.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: You should believe them a vulnerable party, because the percentage of false reports is so low and I don't really think a lot of people make false reports.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: I think statistically we've seen that's not true.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: They don't make false reports.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: It's just a straw man argument that's used to undermine the true reports that don't have a lot of evidence.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: After this.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: I'm glad that wasn't the case because otherwise I would have been charged with sexual assault.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Thankfully there was evidence that it didn't happen, but if there wasn't concrete evidence that her story was untrue, I think there's a good chance that I would have been charged with sexual assault.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Then we would have had to go through a whole other investigation and a trial and hopefully I would have been at least found not guilty if not innocent, because in Canada we have the distinction of proven innocent is proof that you did not do the thing, not guilty is there's no proof that you did.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: That would be on my record for the rest of my life.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, I still, to this day, don't know how to reconcile my experience with the feeling that the vulnerable people in the world need to be protected and believed.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: If you couple that with, I think this is probably true in varying ways for the different states of the US and Canada, with a system that is not putting a lot of resources into investigating or providing resources for these things.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: If it can't be investigated properly, the odds are that it did happen and that person's just not going to get justice.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: But it feels like I have a bird's eye view, I think, on the catch 22 that a lot of people are in when they report these things.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: I honestly don't know what I would do if a friend was in a similar situation.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: But we also have to think too that, yes, when you look at things on paper and you look at the story that you're telling us, on paper you have a female, a white, strong, big man, but when we talk about the vulnerability of people, if someone knows how to use you and your body top and your skin color against you, then you are the vulnerable one, and so in this case, you do have someone making a false accusation of someone that would fit the stereotype of the empowered person, the dominant person that could do this, and so, looking at it in that perspective, you're the vulnerable person in my mind.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: That was the reality.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I have to wonder how many people would believe that without knowing my entire relationship history and if we went to trial and it was all based on the.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: I think in cases like this it's not so much based on evidence.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure this could be totally wrong with the legal system, but I know when it comes to child custody, you do not have to prove that your parent is the better one.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: You just have to convince a jury, a majority of the jury, that your parent is the better one to have the child.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: You don't have to prove it and it does not have to be unanimous right, and we'd be in a situation where we're going to a trial and I'm laying out all my relationship trauma and trying to prove it, and she's laying out all her relationship trauma and trying to prove it, and that's not a great way to handle these things.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I have several friends that are attorneys and I work with some huge corporate attorneys, and then you also see a documentaries and stuff too.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: It's not about what you can tangibly prove, it's who tells the better story, and so if you walk up and you're a good looking, built, you take care of yourself, you fit like you're that alpha male and that could have played against you.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: And if I show up in a courtroom with a fresh haircut and a nice suit, so did every other white male rapist.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a broken system.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, man.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Isn't it though?
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad it turned out the way that it did.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: I hate what has happened to you with the aftermath of mental health, but luckily you know how to gain control of that and you have enough self-awareness to realize when something's affecting you which is why we're here today, and so thank God for that, because there's so many people that don't know how to do that and then drugs and alcohol, or then becoming the person that they've been accused of being, happens.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people get overwhelmed with.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Everyone thinks this about me anyway.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: And there were people in our lives because everyone heard the story that I had been unfaithful but nobody heard the story of I had sexually assaulted her.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: So the people in our lives which is another very compelling piece of evidence that it wasn't true is she didn't tell anybody in our lives that this is what happened.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: She told them that I had been unfaithful and a lot of people just believed her.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: And that's tough.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: I know that for me it was a new social circle being down here for only a year and a half at the time.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: But if it had been my oldest friends from back home or something that we had shared friendships with, that could have been really divisive and damaging.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: So I think I was really lucky in that respect.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: And actually another thing that it revealed to me was some of my friends I will say most of my friends that stayed in touch with me.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: They asked me what happened.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Some of them did not ask me what happened, they just said that sucks.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: And those are the people that I think can also be really insidious in your life and be a really almost a gateway to embracing that identity and that kind of behavior.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Because those people I won't lie, I did judge them afterwards.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Because if a friend of mine said I was accused of sexual assault, I would say what happened?
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Tell me what happened.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I want to know.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: I would not assume their innocence right and surprise.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: All the people who didn't ask me what happened were men.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: And a lot of the people who did ask me what happened and had a great mindset on it were super supportive.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: They were also men.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: But I think there is a boys club out there of people who say, oh, that sucks, that happened.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: And they give you the impression that behavior is acceptable, even if it wasn't true about you that time.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: That tells you that that behavior is acceptable to them.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: You won't lose their friendship if you actually do that.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: And I always heard this analogy when you're in a room full of 10 people and you tell like an off-color joke about sexual assault, maybe probably eight or nine of those people know it's a joke, but the 10th person doesn't think it's a joke.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: They think it's you signaling that behavior is okay.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's where this culture comes from, of not people committing crimes but people thinking it's not a big deal to commit these kinds of crimes, man this conversation and we're not even done.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Wow, Please continue.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Honestly, after all of that because it was quite an ordeal took a couple of months to sort out a new living situation.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: A friend of mine let me stay with him for a few months and I moved into the apartment and now it was a difficult couple of months for sure, and that stuff doesn't just go away.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: You feel the effects of it for quite a while afterwards.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: It was a year or so of feeling okay, but certainly not myself.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I was depressed for a while, which is all understandable.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I had a ton of support, which was really great.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I look back on it and I think it was all a really good lesson because, like I said about the stove being too hot, I had to touch the stove and realize that something like this can't happen.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Not only that, it was a great wake-up call to see you put yourself in this position.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: This didn't happen to me.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: This happened because of me.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: I created this relationship.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: I created this emotional environment.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: I was just as much a part of it as she was.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: I can credit myself by saying I didn't cheat on her.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't lie about this.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't lie about that.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: I can't say that I was blameless because I was there the whole time and there were only two of us.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: I did everything I was supposed to.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: I connected with my friends.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I went to therapy.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: I focused on myself and my work.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: It's been a year and a half now just over a year and a half.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I'm in the best relationship I've ever been in my life.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: It's incredibly healthy.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: It's not exciting in the way that a burning house is.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: It took me some time to understand that burning houses are not exciting and that I should go into the one that looks like a nice place to live.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Once I was able to, like I said, rearrange my instincts.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: That was what I was excited about.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: My life has just gotten infinitely better over the last year and a half.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I think that we get drawn to that burning house because that's what we know and so that's what we're comfortable with.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I'm not comfortable in this house where the lights are on and the pillows are perfectly placed and the bed is made and the sheets are clean.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not comfortable there.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I'm comfortable in the chaos over here and I want to go where I'm comfortable and then I don't allow myself to get to know the clean sheets and the made bed and the nice decorative pillows, because it's just foreign to me when I put the whole house scenario in.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: So I feel like there's a song Gosh, I can't think of who sings it.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: It's a country song.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Do you listen to country at all?
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: So there's a song it's probably it was the number one hit for a while.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: It's probably maybe five years old, but it's called Burning House.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Have you heard?
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: it.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Oh by Cam, Absolutely by Cam.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: So every time you say Burning House, I think of that and I listen to that song one of my favorite things to do at the time because I used to go karaoke with a group of friends and one of our friends would sing that song and she would just blow it out of the water.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: But I love to have the conversation of what does the song mean to you.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: And so, hearing you use the analogy of the Burning House that was a song that just kept going through my mind because people would ask me what does that Burning House mean to you?
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: I'm like.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: My answer honestly was I don't know, because it wasn't just the house that was on fire, it was the house was the safest place I could find from the fire, even though the kitchen was on fire and this room was on fire and this room was on fire.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: I could find that one corner where it wasn't.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I couldn't escape out of a window, I couldn't escape out of the front door, back door, and find that safe place.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Everything was on fire.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: And so I almost forgot about all this until this conversation and then, throughout our conversation, I was realizing that I'm slowly starting to put out those fires, which has been a really cool realization that I've had through this, because I forgot about that, so I forgot about my thought process with that, so you sparked that, which is really cool.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: I love the analogy of putting out the fires too, because my therapist, we were talking about attachments and how we form ideals about ourselves and our lives, and apparently all that is formed between the ages of five and seven years old, and that's when a lot of people are experiencing whatever kind of trauma is normal in their household.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: And that's the time, the overlap time between when we're not quite old enough to process it but we are old enough to internalize it, and that becomes our ideal of how we should feel at home with our parents, with our safe space.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: And she said when people go into relationships like this, they're just looking for someone who's going to make them suffer in the way that feels familiar to them.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: And when you suffered that way initially you didn't understand it and so you're not going to understand it this time, but it's going to feel like home.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: It's going to feel the most like home that anything will, and a healthy relationship is going to feel so foreign because you have not understood why that home that was created for you as a child was not a good place and why those feelings were bad because you just accepted what came, because they were your parents.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: This is the way the world was supposed to be and we have to reprogram ourselves to understand that's not the way the world was supposed to be.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, we're just going to keep finding someone who makes us feel that way.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: It's crazy.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: We had a conversation with a girlfriend of mine and of course this was off record.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: It was completely.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: It was legitimate A girlfriend that I've known for a long time and I had noticed a pattern of anytime I would see her.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: We're like, oh my God, you look so pretty, I love this shirt or I love your hair.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: She'd be like and brush it off.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: She didn't like it, she liked compliments.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: We were shopping one day.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: She is a bigger girl and people are ugly Sometimes.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Some people walking by made a comment of maybe she shouldn't be in a certain store that we were in because of her weight and they had that was a pissed off.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: They did not care that.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: I heard it.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: They did not care that.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: She heard it.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: They were skinny and pretty and everything that society wants, and so we can degrade everybody else.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: When I heard this, I was walking up to this group of people to be like the fuck are you?
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: And my friend stopped me and she was like don't worry about that, I'm not concerned with that, she was concerned with it.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: But the thing is, if these people would have walked by and said she was beautiful, she would have shot away from it.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: They walked by and they're degrading her and she found a way to justify it and to almost protect them, because that's what she knows, that's what she's used to.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: And there was such a fucking wake up call to me like, god damn it, I want to tell her that she's beautiful and I want her to be like bitch.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: You're right.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: But instead someone else walks by and says you're less than, and she says you know what?
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: You're right.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: It's almost like saying I don't like hearing it.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: It's true, so let's just let it go.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, man, this conversation is like a fucking roller coaster Like one minute I'm mad, the next minute I'm happy.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm about to cry, but I just had a lot of Botox done, so I think my tear ducts are numb and they're not producing tears, thank God, because then my spray tan will be a mess.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: But no, I love these conversations and even what it has sparked in me, and I know that this will be backpedaling a little bit, but there was a situation that I heard years ago of.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: What reminded me of it is when you were talking about her talking to the police, and I can't remember exactly the way that it was worded.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: But what I was reminded of is people will sometimes state things saying Jacob did this, david did this, this person did this, when they're not the ones that did it.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: They're just taking the truth of the person that they fear Maybe it's their dad or their uncle or their neighbor or whatever taking all of those actions and saying that someone else did it.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Because they need to be heard, they need to be seen, they need to find resources, not realizing what's going to actually happen for the person's name that they're now saying did it, and I hope that I explained that well, but a part of that it crossed my mind.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: There was a person that was very close to me, that this person was saying that they sexually assaulted them, and then throughout the investigation they found that it wasn't the person.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: It wasn't my friend, it was the boy's uncle.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: But the boy was so terrified of his uncle he wouldn't expose his uncle.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: He exposed this person, hoping to find that safe place, thinking that if an adult knows, or if a person knows that this is happening to me, then I will find the resources in the safe place to be to, where it'll stop uncle from doing it, not realizing this person over here is going to be in a heap of shit.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: And so that crossed my mind too.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: And again, it's no justification for her.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: But I would love to know her backstory with this stuff and what we can do to fix it, because if she's done it to you, what about her next boyfriend?
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: There's no safe place.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: There's not even a safe place for her until it's acknowledged and treated and taken care of.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: She actually said something to me that I remember in our relationship I can't remember exactly when it was maybe four or five months in.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: She just said I don't know why, but I just have this overwhelming feeling that you're a bad person, that you're going to hurt me, and she had been struggling with some drug use and one of the issues was that she felt like very out of touch from reality when she was using the drugs, and I just remember thinking that's not just drugs, that has to come from somewhere, and I don't think that's true.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: But there's a reason that you're feeling that and it's because people have hurt you in your past and now you need somewhere to put that fear and that anxiety.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: I think if I had been a worse person and given her a reason to think that, then she would have felt okay, I was right, he is a bad person because he did this, he's going to hurt me.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: But instead we were having a conversation of.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: I really don't know why, I can't put my finger on it.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: I just think that you're a bad person and I think that's the self-fulfilling prophecy that a lot of people are in is that they want to be with someone, but the last time or the first time that they were close with someone, they were intimate with someone, they were hurt like that and the person turned out to be a very bad person.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: And you're going to keep assuming that about people and keep finding people who, unfortunately, people who make that come true for you or, in this situation, someone who you realize that you can want it to be true.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Almost you don't even have a reason to think that, but you still think it right and that's not going to be over until that's processed.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, when you said that you want it to be true, right, it's almost like if you go through your partner's phone and you're looking for something, you're going to find it.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: It could be the fact that you have told somebody that just got a new haircut that you like their haircut.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for something, you could take that to who.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: You're having an affair.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: You're cheating on me, you're the.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: And then we get to that point and I can speak personally on this.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: I know that I got to a point back in a younger, fucked up state of mind that I didn't want to be proven wrong because the only thing that I knew that was right and safe was me, and so I can't be proven wrong.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: I can't acknowledge the fact that maybe something isn't right somewhere and I need to address something.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to keep hitting these things until I make them come true.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: And then it, you know, it's like just this mental health.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: It's what it boils down to.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: I was not addressing my mental health, I was not doing what I should be doing, and I did not say this when you were talking about she had was in the process of being tested for.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: Was it my borderline personality?
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: And then that medication was given and she was like no, I'm not taking this.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: That's not right.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: The comment I wanted to make and I did it because I don't want it to sound like I'm making fun of it and so prefacing that this is not me making fun of.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: But a part of me wonders which personality was saying this isn't me.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Was it the right state of mind personality?
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Was it the person that you turn into when you're rebelling?
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Was it that personality?
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: What personality made you think that this wasn't right for you?
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: And I don't mean that in a funny way.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: No, I think you're absolutely right, because the part of your personality that is not helpful is the part that tells you, even though everything you're seeing says something to the contrary, this is still true.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: That's the part that is not functional and not helpful that needs to be medicated and go to therapy for right.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: And I think that's exactly what was going on.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: And even when you said, if you go through your partner's phone looking for something, you're going to find it, I think that's where I started to see this is not based in reality.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: This is a serious mental health issue, because I think what she was looking for she had this friend that we had previously had a threesome with, and afterwards she said I don't really like how you are with her when she's around, and she was a very close friend of hers.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: And I said, okay, I'll be more mindful of that.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: And so next time she was over, I just stayed away from her, I tried not to connect with her too much.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: And then again she would say I really didn't like how you were with her and I would go okay, we'll address that again when she comes over.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: And then she would keep inviting her over and she would say I don't trust her.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: I really don't trust her around you and I was like why is she at Thanksgiving then?
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: What's going on here?
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: And when she went through my phone and my computer and stuff, I think she was looking for confirmation that she had been right.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: She was looking for something that said I can trust this feeling, I can trust that I knew I was right all along, because she was so angry when I said I don't want to try this relationship again and I think she didn't have a reason for that and just confronting the fact that I hadn't done anything terrible to her, I had just been a bad partner, but I hadn't done anything overtly terrible in that way.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: That was not an option, right.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: But that was the reason the relationship was ending and so she needed a reason for it to end.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: She needed a reason for her to be able to push herself away from it and say I was right the whole time.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: I still feel like my sense of self is whole and that's why I said it was so confusing when she said I found everything.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: I said what did you find?
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: And she said I saw that you were talking to this person and I said okay, that's not, I didn't meet up with them, I didn't sleep with them.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: I wasn't cheating on you.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: These conversations didn't happen while we were in a relationship.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: All you're telling me is that I've talked to them in the last month, but I think that is what she was looking for was some confirmation that.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Ironically, she was looking for some confirmation that I had done the things that she had done because I was part of the reason I didn't want to continue having a relationship is because she had cheated on me and slept with people behind my back for money and lied about it, and I think she was defined some kind of justification for the way that she felt and the anger that she felt.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: And it was probably even more frustrating when she didn't find it, and that's why I think she was taking those little opportunities to take control of the situation again.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: I'm in charge you.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Someone's buzzing my apartment buzzer.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: It's not going to stop them.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Let's answer it.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's fine.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Sorry, it's a terrible time for Amazon to show up.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know problem Do you need to take care of?
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: it.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: No, I just buzzed them in.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: We're all good.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, yeah, I think overall I don't.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: I was honestly surprised, like I really don't have any feelings of like ill will towards you, like I'm not angry at her.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: I think once I understood the situation I think at the end of the relationship I started to understand why this was happening and why it wasn't going to stop, and even more so as I went to more therapy afterwards.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: I understood it even more and I realized my role in it as well, and I think, the combination of understanding what she was going through and all of the pain that she was feeling, and also realizing my role in it, it was surprisingly easy not to feel any anger or disillusionment.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: Like I just understood, like I allowed that to happen, and a lot of people need help and don't get the help they need, and they have experienced a lot of horrible things, and so this is not the strangest thing to happen in the world.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: It sucks.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: I don't need closure on it because I understand why it happened.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: And I admire the hell out of you for that and like rejection is so hard and especially when you have abandonment issues.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: And again, I don't know this girl, I know nothing about her other than what you've said today.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: But there were parts that I related to with her and unfortunately they were the bad parts of myself that through therapy I've worked on right.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: I had abandonment issues.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: I did not handle rejection very well.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: One of the one of the biggest eye opening moments that I had is before this partner.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: I was with somebody and we simply just didn't work.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: We didn't fight, we had great sex, we felt safe with each other, but we just there was no flame, there was no spark, there was no excitement.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: And break up with somebody without the drama and the shit was not what I was used to.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Ending a relationship, regardless of the status, was someone without feeling rejected or abandoned for me to create this whole story in my head of how I'm worthless.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: It was something that was not used to hear that he was attracted to me and that he thinks I'm great and that, but that he's just not in love with me and that I felt the same way.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: I wasn't able to just part from that I needed to create something of.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: It's great.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: If you think I'm here, then there's someone that's way up here on the top of this mountain.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: There's something wrong with me.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: And if you don't love me, it's because I'm unlovable, not because we're just not right and it took me a fucking minute to realize I was probably the healthiest relationship I was in, that we could sit down over dinner and say you know what?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: I love you but I'm not in love with you and I want you to go experience what being in love with someone is and means and vice versa, and the fact that we're on the same page and that moment to me was the most devastating thing in the world.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: But looking back on it now, that's someone that's never a relationship to be If you're not there, then you need to feel safe enough to say I'm not in part ways, I don't know.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: It's just something crazy how all the things just play factors into all the things.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I think that's a really necessary part of moving away from that kind of mindset, though, of the type of relationships you used to be in, because I've met a lot of people who have that same experience, and myself included where you meet someone and you go okay, this is a healthy relationship.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: I did it.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not in the relationships I used to be in.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Now I have to figure out the next part right Now.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: I have to figure out, now that all of the negative things and all the difficult things and the dysfunctional things are gone, what do I actually want?
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: And I felt very strange, being in my early 30s and going.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: I don't actually know what I really want from a relationship.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: I have to think about it, because it used to be all the things, all the barricades that were in the way of happiness that I felt good working through because that was where I was supposed to be, and when it works, you just breeze by all of them and you're sitting there going oh, I didn't think we'd get here, but now that we are, I'm not in love with you.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, jacob, I just think the world of you and I can sit and talk to you all day.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: My goal and plan is that one day I'm going to message me and say David, we have such great conversation, why don't we have our own podcast where we co-host together?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: until that happens.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just throwing that out of the universe.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: But no, I know that in my show we have deep, dark conversations and it can be a roller coaster, but there are conversations that need to be had and the community that I'm building is just so amazing and I've had you on before so I wrote down a question that was common that I got, or responses that I got from specifically your episode, and so I wanted to save it to the end because I feel like it will be a light, positive, fun way to end versus ending on A pretty dreary note yeah.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: So I love how sex positive you are.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: I love how you're not afraid to speak on it and you're just so open with it because it's.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: However many people are involved, they're all consensual and so it doesn't matter if everyone is consensual, it doesn't matter what your fetish is, it doesn't matter what, and I love that you live by that and that you do that.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: Men and women both have messaged and about listening to your episode and was like the sex positivity that he has made me think things differently, in a positive way.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: So for those who may not have listened to the first episode, I know that we did talk on it and to even just a year later, bring it up again and talk about it in a positive light.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us what being sex positive is to you and how that works in your life in that positive way?
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: Definitely.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: I think being sex positive is.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: It's not an equal opportunity activity, unfortunately, because our relationship with sex is something that's handed down from our parents and generations of family before us and the environments we're raised in.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: And I think if, like me, you don't have any barriers towards that, that's your responsibility to recognize that and use that to connect other people, because so many people have so many different experiences where they just don't feel like they have the space or the right or the ability to accept themselves and what they enjoy and explore things.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: And if you have that privilege, you know exactly how good it feels and what it's brought into your life, because sex is a fundamental part of life for human beings and it's a part of life where we experience an unbelievable amount of shame.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: So if you don't have it, then you need to take a good look around and realize how lucky you are and, just like anything in life, if you have something and you can share it and you can help other people get past the shame that they're feeling and experience it the way you are, I think you have a responsibility to do that, for not everybody has to do it on the internet to thousands of people, but just to the people in your life.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Start a conversation, because if you're feeling sex positive and you keep it to yourself, then you're not sex positive, you're just living your own life.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: Sex positive is a community activity and it's a place where you can lead by example and make it so much easier for other people to follow, and it's the reason I do adult content.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: I said just yesterday, actually after filming a collab with someone that my content is like a love letter to my own sexuality, and being able to experience it so freely and so openly and share that with people has been an incredible experience.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: It's made it even better.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: So if you're having a good time with sex and you're feeling positive about it, you're never going to regret sharing that.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Man, I'm such a fan of yours.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: I love the relationship that we've been building the past year.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: If I email you, you respond yeah, I look forward to your TikToks.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: I look forward to anything that you put your name on.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: You're just so well spoken and you care and you acknowledge your privileges, you acknowledge your past, you acknowledge the path that you're on and I just really admire that and I'm so glad that my community gets to share parts of you and that I get to share parts of you.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: And you're not going to break up with me now, right?
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: No, thanks for everything.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, definitely.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: So I say if you abandon me first, then you can't be abandoned, right?
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: Fair enough, I would say the same things about you.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: It may not be as flashy Obviously people are a little more excited by sex than they are by trauma in the short term, but I think what you're doing is so powerful because so many people out there have had the experiences that you've had, but they're not willing to talk about them and they're not willing to use that to create a space for other people to empower themselves, and so I think we affect people in very different ways, but the positive change that comes from what you're doing is going to be long lasting.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: But I want everyone to be able to find you, to check you out, share all the things where we can that you want to share with us.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: Definitely.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: My handle is the art of orgasm, and you can find me on TikTok and Instagram, where my handle is Bo Delacroix, because you can't say orgasm on Instagram, but everywhere that you can be adults, it's the art of orgasm, and anywhere you can't, it's Bo Delacroix.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: That's where you find the sexy stories and the adult content, as well as just the social media content as well.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: And that wraps up another powerful episode of Surviving Abuse.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our incredible guests for sharing their transformative journey with us today.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: Join us next week as we dive into the healing process and share more incredible stories of triumph and resilience.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you.