Latest / Mental Health and the Mission of the Church / How to Lead with Honesty and Heart | 4 Pastor's Perspectives

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How to Lead with Honesty and Heart | 4 Pastor's Perspectives · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: I believe the conversation we're having right now is the most important conversation needed in the body of Christ right now.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_05: I don't believe we need to learn more about worship.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_05: I don't believe we need to learn more about leadership.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_05: Dear God, we've got enough on leadership to choke us, which I think it is, by the way.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_05: But let me turn around a question for you guys.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_05: How many pastors do you know?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_05: And again, I just mean percentage-wise, but if you just thought about the ones you're close to and not close to, you just observe from a distance, you read their books, whatever.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_05: What percentage of pastors would you guys say see it the way we're seeing it?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_08: Go to healthcare.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_08: We we push the gym, go to the gym, push the spirit, go, go, go sit on the word, let the water, the washing of the word, strengthen your inner man.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: But this is Pastor Josh Robert, pastor of All People Church, a friend of Chip's, and also one of those pastors who sees Chip as a mentor, spiritual guide, and I'd say safe to say, therapist as well.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it would come as much as of a surprise that Pastor Josh also shares the sediments underlining the theme of this podcast: the need for good mental health awareness within the scope of biblical discipleship.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_08: What about the soul, our mind, our will, and our emotions?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_08: Like I said, I wish I would have known how to access help, resources, tools earlier.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_08: And I think part of my calling now to help expose is with my running mates and people in my life to say, wait a second.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another pastor who is also aligned with Pastor Judd in mission and also in friendship.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, top, you know, top notch as far as serving the Lord, loving the Lord.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: About four four or five years ago had a very, very significant anxiety attack.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Did we're talking about a process of rehabilitation and recovering?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's Virgil Sierra, who took over his generationally family-led church, and as most pastors do, desperately wants to see people set free.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And a freedom will always entail good mental health practices.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: When people hurt her, now on the other side, well healed, the process of being in being on medication and maybe maybe how humbling she felt in the moment, but then understanding this is part of the process of healing.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that that message was one of the most powerful moments for our whole church to hear.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Two pastors with our resident pastors, Chip Judd and co-host Joey Spencer.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: You'll hear in this episode that Chip sees mental health as more of a central spiritual discipleship rather than just part of it.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And Pastor Josh and Pastor Virgil share not only their convictions of incorporating a form of mental health awareness focus into the lifeblood of their church, they are years into the process of doing it and are here to share.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Brittany Gardner, part of the team here, and you are listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: Virgil, you've never met Joey, have you?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I have.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_04: If you had, you'd remember it.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Take that however you want.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Take that however you want.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Great to meet you, Joey.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: You too.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: I was just telling Chip that you're the first Virgil I've met aside from my dad.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: No way.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a lot of us.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And my dad is, my full name is Virgilio, actually.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, a little Italian there, Virgilio.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: But there's not a lot of Virgil.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: So Nope.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: He's Virgil 1947, little brother of Victor.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is he still with us or no?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Please tell them that that a Virgil from your generation or younger said I.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: I will.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: I will.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Very cool.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_05: And Virgil, Josh Roberts, is pastoring up in Boston.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_05: I I'll go ahead and say it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_05: He's a really good guy.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_05: Whatever.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_08: Great to meet you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Great to meet you, Josh.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard some great things.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Same here.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_08: Same.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_08: If you're a friend of Chip, you're a friend of mine.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_08: That's right.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_08: I trust this guy.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_05: Agreed.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I feel too.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I feel too.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_05: And I think you all know this, but you know, sarcasm's kind of my love language.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, if I don't, if I don't pick on you, I probably I don't like you, I don't really care about you, or whatever.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: So hey Chip, I actually read recently that research says that close friends who use cutting jokes and sarcasm within their friendships as closeness are indeed closer.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: So just according to some research.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_05: I would agree with that.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_05: No, you know, there's lines you you don't cross.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_05: Like here's a here's an important little rule I learned about sarcasm.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_05: You can't ever be sarcastic with someone you care about if it's something that's real.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_05: Like you don't tease an overweight person about you don't tell them overweight jokes.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_05: You don't like I wouldn't I would never make fun of you.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_05: Hopefully I never make fun of you, period, but I would never pick at you in an area that's true.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like you'd never say, oh, Pastor Joey's a little depressed guy.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: He needs medication.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_05: Well, now I might say that.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was gonna tell you guys in private before Joey got on, but he's one of those wimpy Christians that has still medication.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, he just he just doesn't have enough faith, you know, like us.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_08: Man.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_08: I love this father-son thing you guys got going on here.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_08: It's just powerful.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: Where where are you guys tuning in from, Virgil and Josh?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: Where y'all live?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, south South Florida.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Dude, I could I could actually hang out with you if you wanted to next month.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: My brother lives in Boca, so okay, cool.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: He's close.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Have you lived in uh Fort Lauderdale?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: Born and raised.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, okay.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he's been in Boca since 99.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: He married a girl from there.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: So cool.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: How about you, Josh?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_08: But on I'm in uh Boston, Massachusetts, just north of the city.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Sweet.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_08: About 30 minutes north of Boston.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Sweet.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Josh and Virgil, why don't you kind of tell, you know, Josh, why don't you go first and just kind of tell us where you're at?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_05: But you're you're not telling us, you're telling people watching where you're at and what you're doing, what you're doing.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my name is Virgil Sierra.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the lead pastor of Vertical Church, aka Iglesia Vertical in South Florida.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, took over for my parents uh who planted our church uh 32 years ago uh in 2015, relaunched with my wife uh together pastoring uh one church, two languages, uh English and Spanish, uh seeing a lot of growth, seeing a lot of uh fruit, and uh experiencing a great season of just uh leading the church and leading the family uh well.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, also have the privilege of hosting the Aveil Podcast uh under Dr.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sam Chand and Martin van Tilburg, who are co-founders of Aveil Leadership, which is a Christian leadership brand that just pumps out all kinds of resources from uh the quarterly magazine uh on leadership to monthly books that are published, and uh and the Aveil Podcast, which comes out every Tuesday, have the privilege of uh interviewing amazing leaders, authors, pastors, guests, including leaders.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Pastor Chapter, amazing leaders, author of the endurance factor and uh expertise.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Greg Surratt! Whoa, nice.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's a privilege uh to pastor uh and and be part of what God's doing uh here in South Florida and uh also have the privilege of taking a lot of this to Latin America.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Pastor Robert Beriger from uh uh uh Lima, Peru, coming to the Viva is one of my overseers, and we do a lot of taking growth systems to Latin America and equipping pastors as well.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even even the need seeing the need in Latin America for more resources on mental health and and um soul care uh is a is uh so it's so big.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a huge need.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I love uh being connected and and having conversations like this.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_05: Cool.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we'll have to talk about that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_05: And Josh has got a big heart for missions.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_05: Um first of all, you you know, when when you said your name Virgin, you you stretched it to Virg.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Virgilio.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_05: Now, and you said that's Italian.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: The name now you're not Italian, the name is Italian, which could probably be pronounced Virgilio, but in Spanish it's Virgilio, and uh it's my father's name.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're our family's from Columbia, South America.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: My parents moved uh to South Florida right before I was born, and I was born here in South Florida, close to Miami.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_05: I just wanted to clear that up.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_05: I was mildly confused.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_05: Well, Josh, Josh, tell us about yourself, man.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_08: Yes, uh, my name is Josh Roberts.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_08: Uh I serve as the lead pastor at All People, a church just north of Boston.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_08: Um I'm married, uh celebrating 13 years this year, 25 years of being with my wife, uh and knowing her.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_08: We have three kids, um 10, 6, and 4.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_08: And nine years ago we moved to Boston to help uh serve at a church, which uh three years ago we became the lead pastors of that church.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_08: And we also uh just reinvented, reinvented ourselves, replanted the church uh one year ago in March.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_08: And we are a true international church.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_08: We have 56 nationalities that worship with us every weekend.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_08: Uh we translate into uh Portuguese and Spanish at both of our services.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_08: Huge heart for the world.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_08: Steph and I met during mission school.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_08: Uh we've traveled over 20 nations uh together, and now the Lord's brought the nations to us.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_08: Um still have a huge heart for church planting.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, networking with others.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_08: I also started with a friend Josh Pennington.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_08: We started a little group called the Running Mates about five years ago.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_08: It's a small network of uh pastors that we gather monthly on a call, and then we take two trips a year together just for fellowship, renewal, friendship, camaraderie, and encouragement.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_08: And it's been a big part of helping me formulate that and strategize how do we really care for each other as friends, as pastors, as shepherds.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_08: And um, yeah, honored to be here with you guys.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, Virgil, tell us about your family.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: My wife, Jislaine, and I have been married now 21 years.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a funny story because our mothers met when they were pregnant with us in South Florida.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Both of our parents are from Columbia, South America, but they meet in South Florida.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Her dad was looking for a carpenter to do some cabinet making jobs.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: My he saw my dad's name, called him.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, her dad is a musician, my dad is a musician.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So they hit it off.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: The families met.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's pictures of her at my first birthday party.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I say that she's been chasing me since the womb.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's not true.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we we we disconnected for for a span of about 10 years, and then when we were about uh 16, we reconnected and uh and um seven years before we got married, boyfriend, girlfriend, and and so yeah, going 28 years, I guess, all together.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, we have three kids.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Caleb is 17 uh driving.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're praying for him.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sophia is 15, about to drive, and Nico is 12.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the three all three of them love church, they love Jesus, they love their parents, and we we continue to uh raise them up uh and pray for each season of their lives.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: But uh they're wonderful students, they're doing great, they're honoring us.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's my immediate family.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: My parents planted our church and they're still in the front row, all five services on Sunday, and uh running hard.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: Your parents are at all five services?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: They are all five.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: My dad tells me, Hey, I didn't see so and so, I didn't see so.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he's there doing his thing, and and they're like spiritual grandparents.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool, man.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_05: Your dad's probably uh what I would call an old school pastor, like when he notices they're not there, there, there.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_05: I mean that that's that's a that's a lost art or becoming a lost art.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but you know, a lot of churches get larger that you can't really do that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_05: But that's where the uh the gross stuff comes in that you were talking about.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_05: Joey, tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_05: I know uh you know you do that off and out a little bit, but like if as if you were talking to strangers, which which you are.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I I grew up in the church and my parents were raised Catholic, and when they had a born-again experience, we ended up in Pentecostal churches.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I grew up Pentecostal, and when I was in college, I felt called to ministry, but I remember asking God, hey, when when is this?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm at a school that's not a seminary, and I felt such a peace.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: God saying, Hey, I I I told you, but that's that's for later.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: So just do your thing.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I I so I became a teacher for five years.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was a school teacher and ended up being uh my wife and I found Seacoast and we started going there.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: Came on staff in 05 and been there for 20 years now.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: I love working with Chip because mental health is a very important topic for me.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: I have dealt with depression and anxiety for most of my life, and a lot of it was interwoven with some religious, unhealthy teachings that I inherited that just was a recipe for disaster.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I had a mental health crisis in 2019 that uh Pastor Chip was very instrumental in helping me through all that time.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I was a campus pastor of one of the Seacoast campuses for 13 years, and now I help produce the Seacoast podcast.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've also, you know, I would say I've been through a lot of deconstruction and obviously, well, I would think it's obviously with Chip and I working so closely.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very much so a Christian.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: I've just chant, you know, I think I had to do, I think everybody deconstructs, but I think I had to do a lot of it just because a lot of the unhealthy stuff that I acquired.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: But um, so so yeah, I don't pastor a church anymore, but still very much so do a lot of pastoral work with Seacoast.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_05: And not to, you know, make anybody uncomfortable, specifically Joey.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_05: When he says he's dealt with depression and anxiety, we're we're not talking about kindergarten level.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: We're talking about some really, really severe stuff.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_05: And the cool thing is the the the uh 2019 that Joey's referring to, he finally got doctors that put together the right mix of medications.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I've known Joey for 14 years, I think.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_05: And since that time, I've never seen him so consistently just in a good place.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_05: Doesn't mean he doesn't have challenges, struggles, doesn't mean he doesn't have a bad day here or there like the rest of us.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_05: But I'm talking about I've not seen him go into the place he used to go pretty cyclically and regularly.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_05: What's what's gotten him there is the correct, if you'll forgive me, cocktail of medications.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_05: And Joey's learned to be more assertive about it, about getting the care that he needs.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_05: And uh it's been it's been fun to watch.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, man.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I I would also say, too, though, that that awful season was a catalyst for me recognizing how I needed therapy as a regular flow.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like Chip is a therapist, pastor, and friend, so I know I can go to him anytime, but I also have like a regular therapist that I visit kind of for a habitual, you know, checking in sort of thing.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: So doing that regularly for the last six years, I think has been huge, also.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: And Chip, I was on medication for most of my life, most of the time.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: What led to my mental health crisis was me getting off my medication.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: I tampered off of my meds just because I thought that I was healthy enough to do so.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I just wanted to try it because medicine affects your libido, it affects emotions and stuff.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it was just one of those things to where I hadn't tried in a really long time, and uh I recognize that I'm not trying that ever again unless Jesus appears in a vision and then proves to me that it's him somehow.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_05: Well, let me ask you guys, uh, Josh and Virgil, um, have you ever taken advantage of mental health services of any kind?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_08: Um I feel like my calls with you are mental health services.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_08: I meet with you every month.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_08: And um was something that I needed in this season of life.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_08: Um, I was listening to your um, what was it, eight-minute mind shift, seven-minute mind shift thing you were doing during COVID?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_08: And I was entering a crazy season of life and knew I needed somebody to talk to.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_08: My uncle's a psychiatrist, he's retired now, but I would call him, would call him from time to time and just say, Am I crazy?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_08: And he'd say, No, you're not crazy.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_08: You just need to think about it this way or connect it to this.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_08: So, other than that, no, I hadn't had mental health services on the regular.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_08: Um looking back now at the progress that I've had with with you, Chip, you've been phenomenal.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_08: Last it's been three years.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_08: Man, I wish I would have started talking to somebody sooner, specifically being in ministry and having an outlet.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_08: I'm finding that's the um the danger zone to be doing ministry and not have an outlet.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_08: You can't talk to your staff.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_08: Sometimes your wife doesn't understand.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_08: And the way that governance is set up, you you're afraid to talk to somebody because you might get in trouble.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_08: I'm grateful for it now.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_08: I wish it would have started sooner.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_08: Dealt with a lot of anxiety and a lot of depression that I didn't know it was depression until after, until the season was over and look back and say, wait a second, that was three years of darkness that man, I probably could have avoided had I just had somebody to talk to and maybe even get some help medically.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um, tell them how we finally met.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_08: Gosh, my wife sent me some messages.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_08: Um, we were getting ready to take over uh or step into the lead role of uh a megachurch as well as a founding pastor 40 years he had pastored, so it was just daunting to be the new guy.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_08: And um I was just feeling the pressure.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_08: I know I'm qualified, I know God's there, but the size and the load.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_08: So she just started sending me these little clips on Instagram.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_08: You might like this guy, just found this guy.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_08: So I started watching him.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_08: I DM'd him a couple times.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_08: I don't think Chip knows how to run Instagram or he just was ignoring me.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_08: Maybe he gets maybe he's got so much fan mail, mine just fell between the cracks.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: But let's go with the ladder.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go with the ladder.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_08: I I basically said, hey man, I'm I love this stuff.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_08: Are you are you taking clients or anybody and get some time on your calendar?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_08: And he didn't respond, didn't respond.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_08: And then I realized I'm gonna be at Seacoast.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_08: I was coming for the ARC conference, this is three or four years ago now.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_08: And I it didn't even hit me till the plane landed.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_08: I'm like, wait, Chip is at this church, he's gonna be at this conference.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_08: So I messaged a couple Seacoast guys that I knew.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_08: Hey, do you know Chip?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_08: Can you connect me?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_08: And for two days, they were like, We'll find him, we'll connect you guys.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_08: I was ticked.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_08: I couldn't find him, nobody could connect me.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_08: He's busy, he's you know, he's in the green room eating lobster tails or something.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_08: I don't know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: And um He signed an artograph while he's doing it, you know?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_08: Totally, totally.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_08: It was uh it was the last session of the of the last day, and I I kind of give it up.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_08: Well, maybe I'm not gonna meet him.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_08: And um, I got my hands up in worship.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_08: I'm in the first row of the balcony, and during worship, Chip came in and sat in the last row of the front section.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_08: I'm like, Tim right there.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_08: And I told my buddies I was with, I said, Hey, I'm gonna skip out and go catch that guy after this is over.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_08: Don't leave me.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_08: Well, he saw him check his phone, he must have had a call, so he skipped out during worship.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_08: I just followed him out in the hallway and he went out in the courtyard, took his call, and I just stood there, I got a cup of coffee.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_08: I'm I'm I'm not missing him.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_08: I'm gonna grab him now.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_08: And he came in, and I just said, Hey, I said, I'm Josh Roberts.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_08: I said, You're Chip Judd.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_08: He said, Yeah, and I said, Hey, I've been trying to get in touch with you.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_08: He said, Yeah, I don't answer that thing.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_08: I don't, yeah, I'm not interested.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_08: And I said, Well, I'd I'd love to connect with you.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_08: I'd I'd love some time, I'll pay you for it, whatever.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_08: I just I love your stuff, and I'm not taking any new clients.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_08: I don't really do that, and I'm busy.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_08: And tell me, tell me what's going on.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_08: And three minutes later, he's like, Here's my email.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_08: Email me and we'll we'll get a call.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_08: And um he took my call a couple weeks later, and it's been great.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_08: I'm I'm so grateful for Chip Judd in my life.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_08: He's a god send for me, for my church, for my staff, for my running mates.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and I'm I'm grateful that the Lord really put him in my life.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_08: Um even this last season has been emotional watching Chip watch the walk through his battle because I know the value that he brings to the body of Christ, and I'm grateful to have a cheerleader in my corner and someone that can help me articulate what's happening between my ears when I don't know what's going on.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: Josh, I got uh let me ask Chip.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta know what, and I think your listeners would be very interested also because of the work the type of work that you go traveling to different churches.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: What happened so fast for you to go from, well, I mean, I I'm not really taking on any clients to okay, we'll talk, let me get your number.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like what what was it?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: What did Josh say to pique your interest and to want some closeness there?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_05: You know, one of the key features I look for in a leader is uh, and you can say it one of two ways.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_05: To me, that's two sides of the same coin teachable and humble.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_05: And um two two minutes of conversation, and I thought, this guy's hungry.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um and I love I love working with somebody who's hungry.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: And to be honest with you, I felt I felt that God thing, you know, and and it's probably run together, but um, and I liked him.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_05: I I immediately was like, I I think I'd enjoy running with this guy because he wasn't religious, you know.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_05: He wasn't no, he was stalking me.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_05: That was a little creepy.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_08: But uh you gotta get after it, guys.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_08: You gotta go get what you need.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_08: And I I'll be honest with you, I'm I'm that guy.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: I'm yeah, I'm not gonna say someone I respected it.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_05: And um, but mostly that, Joey.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_05: I I just sensed like forgive me, this is gonna sound tacky to some people.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's easier and more rewarding.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: To move a six to an eight than it is a two to a four.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_05: Now it's rewarding to move a two to a four.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_05: Forgive me, I shouldn't have said that way.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_05: But it's harder to move a two to a four than it is a six to an eight.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I could tell Josh was a pretty, pretty well functioning just the way he communicated, the way he looked me in the eye, and all I thought, okay, this guy's this guy's got something to work with.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: I probably had five or six times in my life where I met somebody, and as soon as I met them, I knew this is a God thing.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_05: Josh was one of those where I thought there's there's something going on here that did not originate with us.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_05: I've never even heard the whole story like he just gave, so that was pretty cool.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Virgil, how about you?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_05: Have you ever had to take advantage of mental health?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, interesting story.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so before I went into full-time ministry, I got my master's degree as an occupational therapist, which is uh it's a OT is a health profession that kind of runs along kind of rehabilitation along with you know PT and But OT has a little bit of a uh of a mix uh with also um just with mental health as well.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, in fact, uh uh when I was working at Jackson North Medical Center in North Miami Beach, I I I was kind of one of those OTs I could do, I could, I could do therapy in any context, pediatric therapy, uh, you know, with kids, I could do geriatric therapy, although it's physical dysfunction.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: But then there was a season where I had to run mental health wellness groups on the psychiatric ward of the hospital that I was working on.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a I had a very up close and personal uh uh initially I didn't have a lot of experience in that area, and and and it ended up being something very, very rewarding for me as a as a therapist in that role.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I say that because that that is a high, I mean it's it's a heavy atmosphere, uh, the psychiatric word.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a heavy atmosphere.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're talking about a lot of a lot of diagnoses, a lot of medication, uh, a lot of dysfunction, and I would say a lot of soul, spiritual, a lot of a lot of everything.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that that awoke, that that awakened me because I've always been, I've always had a pastor's heart.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've always been in ministry.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was a worship, I was a worship pastor for my dad at that time, and and I remember thinking, uh, wow, the Lord must have me here for a reason.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and and in that atmosphere, it it it it made me highly aware, uh, maybe, maybe of the extremes, right?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, of the extremes that people can get to when they're not, when they're not well in their soul, in their mind.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a pastor, you know, you you see a lot having the background as a as a therapist, uh, occupational therapist, uh, it helped me understand a little bit more the connections between kind of the medical side, the behavioral side, uh, the therapeutic side.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm a I'm a pastor.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, so the spiritual side behind of all this, it awakened me a lot.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: In my personal life, uh, I've I've I've I'm I'm kind of uh man, I'm a I'm a joy bringer and a and a I'm a tigger.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that, you know, in this in this sense, I I've never I've never, by the grace of God, had a personal uh personal struggles until until kind of marriage, but like pastoring together with my wife and then the that dynamic, which which was one of the ways uh Chip that we connected with you.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when I first met you, it was at a retreat at Church Creek retreat that uh we were there with some pastors and uh uh Pastor Greg said, Hey, uh Pastor Chip is here and he's he's got some time if you guys want to schedule some time.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I'd love to talk to him.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember talking to you just for for a moment, I said, wow, it would be really beneficial for me and my wife to have the opportunity if possible.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when uh we followed up and and we had a few sessions of just as as a marriage, as as hey, we're walking through this, uh pastoring together, uh, the the blessings and and the challenges of that.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and and you helped us uh on multiple occasions where we sat down to just process and understand what we were walking through.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: You asked hard questions, which caused us to continue the conversations.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I would say uh in my life, I've I have sought out, I would say more recently in the last five years, I've sought out, I've worked, I've done a little bit of work with Lance Witt also uh on the on the area of soul care and just coaching, just coaching me.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I've sought out, kind of like Josh, I've sought out mentors and people who can help me because I've realized uh without necessarily having you know a heavy breakdown or a diagnosis, uh, I've realized that I want to stay ahead of it and it's been helpful for me to talk with the right people along my journey.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a question for you, Chip, because being a being a health professional before stepping into ministry, there's there are two different worlds.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: The the the the pastoral, spiritual world, right, and then and then the medical, and they don't always necessarily align, so to speak.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have a very interesting perspective, also as a pastor, but as a professional in the in in in psychology, I'm curious as to from your experience and your years and your interaction, what do you see about these two worlds that melds well together?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: But then also how do they differ?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_05: Well, to be honest with you, that's what the podcast's about.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_05: That's kind of my mission, I feel like.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_05: I, you know, I got saved.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_05: I was 22 or 3, can't remember.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_05: And I've always been a person that others like to talk to and open up and stuff.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_05: And you don't know what to do with it.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_05: You don't, you don't even really notice it.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_05: Well, then I got saved, and um, when you get saved and you feel called to ministry, what do you do?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_05: You pastor.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_05: So I was pastoring, but I used to say I was a pastor who did a lot of counseling.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_05: The truth is I was probably a counselor who happened to be pastoring.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_05: But the bottom line is I hit a point where my church wasn't doing that well.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_05: And uh my wife and I were walking one day, and I said, baby, what am I any good at that I can get paid for?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_05: Because really I was just looking for a side job.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_05: And she said, Well, what about counseling?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_05: You know, talk to some of my pastor friends just like you guys are talking about.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_05: And to be honest with you, every one of them discouraged me.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_05: Every one of them discouraged me to go the counseling direction.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_05: Every one of them.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, in fact, by the time the dust settled and I had my master's, I had lost some friends over this very issue.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_05: So the bottom line, Virgil, is I mean, you know, you we we could all three of us could get into theology.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_05: I was saved, I'm being saved, I'm yet to be saved.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_05: What do you mean, dude?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_05: I was saved in my spirit, I'm being saved where?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_05: In my soul, and I'm yet to be saved in my body at the return of the Lord.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_05: Well, if you look at that, past, I was saved.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_05: I can't get any more saved than I am, which is a revelation some people need.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_05: But I I was saved, past tense done.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: I'm being saved, present tense, a process that's in motion, and then I'm yet to be saved, my body, and I can't do anything about that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_05: So, what's the one area that we can make progress in?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_05: What's the one area in my own life and the lives of those to whom I get to minister?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_05: The area, the juicy spot of ministry is the soul, the the the renewal and renovation of the soul.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_05: So I believe the conversation we're having right now is the most important conversation needed in the body of Christ right now.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_05: I really do.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_05: I don't believe we need to learn more about worship.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_05: I don't believe we need to learn more about leadership.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_05: Dear God, we've got enough on leadership to choke us, which I think it is, by the way.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_05: I hope that made sense, but let me turn around a question for you guys.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_05: How many pastors do you know?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_05: And again, I just mean percentage-wise, but if you just thought about the ones you're close to and not close to, you just observe from a distance, you read their books, whatever.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_05: What what did what percentage of pastors would you guys say see it the way we we're seeing it?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_08: Very few in our circle.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_08: Um I've come from a word of faith camp, you know, we're charismatiacs.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_08: Um I don't know, it's a it's a tough conversation because it comes down to for those guys immediately, it's well, you don't have enough faith.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_08: You don't have enough faith.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_08: You're not in church enough, you're not reading your word, you don't know the Lord, you know, you need to go deeper.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_08: And um, but they wouldn't say that if you had a back problem.
• 30:38
  unknown: Right.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_08: They wouldn't say that if you had a kidney problem.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_08: You'd see a specialist, you'd see somebody that can help you with that specific.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_08: And because of that, I think it's been not only overlooked, I think we've done this next generation of disservice because um there's a lot of challenges going on, but they're afraid to ask.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_08: And then and then they wouldn't even know who to ask.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_08: Who who would I call?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_08: We don't have this, it's not readily available enough.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_08: You want a breakthrough conference, you want more resources?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_08: We got a conference for that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_08: You know, you need a deliverance service, we got some Pentecostals to throw up in a bucket.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_08: We got those people.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_08: Um, you mean marriage stuff?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_08: We got that.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_08: We've we've got all these other things, but when it comes to the soul, the mind, I love that you brought it up.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_08: We we believe we are a three-part being.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_08: We're a spirit, soul, and body.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_08: We go to healthcare, we we push the gym, go to the gym.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_08: We push the spirit, go, go, go sit under the word, let the water of the washing of the word strengthen your inner man.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_08: But what about the soul, our mind, our will, and our emotions?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_08: I'm bringing it up because I it's been a powerful piece of my story as of late.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_08: Like I said, I wish I would have known how to access help, resources, tools uh earlier.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_08: And I think it's part of my calling now is to help expose this with my running mates and people in my life to say, wait a second, you got a little bit more going on than you're giving yourself credit for.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_08: And guess what?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_08: There's some people out there like a chip judd that, man, they can help you.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_08: You need some time with chip.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_05: We need to find some more chips.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_05: And it's and it's tricky.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_08: There's a young man in our church.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, he's a great young man.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_08: He's in his 20s.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_08: He's gonna be a part of um some things we're doing moving forward.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_08: And uh he's he's getting his degrees, he's getting his mental health counseling degree, starts an internship this week.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_08: And I gave him your book this week.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_08: I said, You need, I'm gonna set you up with Chip Judd.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_08: I said, You need a forerunner and a finisher in your life.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_08: Someone he's just starting in the space, it's his calling.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_08: So I want to tag team you as uh bringing the generations together, so I've got a guy in-house.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that's one of the things I want to do.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_05: I want to pull counselors this way, and uh the best time to catch them is what you're talking about right there.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_05: Because here's what'll happen.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_05: He'll get it again.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not saying this over him, but typically, because I've had lots of people over the years say, I want to do what you do, and I'll tell them the path they have to follow.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_05: Well, here's what happens they get out, they get through and they they they they they go to the supervision and all the stuff they have to do.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_05: And what happens is they get sucked up into that world, and number one, you make more money.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_05: Number two, they they they they kind of uh they kind of pressure you to be honest, and they have a way of doing things that they kind of look down their nose at us a bit.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_05: Next thing you know, uh oh yeah, I'm I'm I'm counseling.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_05: I said, Oh yeah, you how you what are you doing with your church?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_05: How you helping your church?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_05: Well, it's just didn't work out.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, whatever, man.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_05: Whatever.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but don't you think that that's probably due to a lot of churches where you know Josh made this, you know, as far as man, a lot of churches haven't made a whole lot of progress.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they came from churches like that.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: But but you know those people, so that may not be the case.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_05: So well, it it there's no doubt that's true.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_05: The church is the church on the whole, and that's part of what this conversation's about.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and if you guys are up for it, I wouldn't mind doing some more down the road.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_05: But um churches don't know how to we hadn't figured out how to make that mess yet.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I'm at COS, I'm on staff at CCOS, and I've been whittling away at it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_05: I've been here 14 years.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you you could watch the language change, you could watch the the thought process, you could, you could hear it showing up in some messages, and and I mean the progression has been such that for crying out loud, we've opened our own counseling service now.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, we've got a full-blown counseling practice.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_05: But I'll be honest with you, the two don't flow together as well as they could.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_05: I'll deal with whatever I have to deal with.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_05: Sabing said that.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_05: Whatever.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_05: There's just a weird there's a language barrier, there's a practice barrier, there's a pride barrier.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_08: Chip, do you think it has to do with the size of the church too?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, growing up it was smaller churches, you know, a couple hundred people, so the pastor, the pastor handles that, but he's not a counselor in his capacity at the greatest level he can.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_08: But then there's somebody who's like, dude, I don't know what to do, and he doesn't have the resource.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_08: But the larger the church and organization get, the more exposure, and you realize, wait a second, because God's given us more, we have to steward this.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_08: Well, now we need to talk about this because I don't just have one person that's depressed that I've been meeting with, or one person that's anxious.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_08: Man, I got all kinds of people coming out the woodwork.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_08: They're brand new to faith, and they came with issues.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_08: And so I think as the churches get bigger and the influence gets greater, the resources, maybe Virgil Virgil, you could speak to that too.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_08: It sounds like you guys have a pretty rockin' work.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_08: Was there a point where you realize, wait a second, we're seeing more of this stuff?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll say I I know there's a lot of churches who who run some kind or some form of freedom group.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: We do freedom groups here, um, and we have an interesting culture because we have a lot of Hispanic, you know, we do we do English and Spanish, but we do both.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and even though there are differences uh culturally, there are similarities and the same percentage and need for it.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and one of the things that we have found, uh I would say since my tenure in these last 10 years that I've been pastoring, um, I would say that when we ask people the question, how has our church, how has vertical church made a positive impact in your life, right?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously it's the Lord, but what has stood out, uh one of the things that that comes to the top of the list for most people is is freedom when they've done it, because it is a journey where we're helping people address issues of the soul.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is it is highly spiritual and biblical uh uh in the in the frame, uh which as Christians, that's that's what we that's what we want.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it really takes the time to connect or attach the aspect of emotions, the aspect of of um my my my mind, my thoughts, my well-being.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think I mentioned this uh in in conversation with Chip, but but everybody is so uh um desiring to open the door to their tomorrow, but they haven't closed so many doors from yesterday.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh I think that's that's the hang of that, like that's the weight, that's the burden.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so in in in our context, we're seeing it honestly in every age group.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and maybe, maybe even in in older generations, there's a little bit of a stigma or there's a little bit of uh, oh, you know, we don't do that touchy-feely stuff.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: We don't, you know, you don't need counseling, you just need to read the word and pray, pray, and and and we want to do that.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: But but that mentality can sometimes block that generation.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if that generation didn't pour or teach it or model it, then there's a generation we're trying to figure it out.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me, I I have I have felt like I'm bridging the generation since I'm I'm, you know, my father founded our church.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I get his generation, but I also get the generation coming behind.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we bridge and how do we begin to normalize things that maybe this generation didn't see as normal or needed, but then bring it to a way where this is relevant, this is necessary.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think uh the our people are crying for it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: There, there, it's people are like, okay, this, I had never spoken about some of these things with we do it with men with men and women with women.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it even make opens the door for people to really get vulnerable.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody in my groups, they in a freedom group session, like like context, they say, I don't think I've ever told anybody most of what I've expressed here because it it requires that vulnerability and and it requires that just that realness, that authenticity.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think I uh when it comes to discipleship, I've heard you talk about that, Chip.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like like soul care and and and mental health should be at the center of discipleship.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I see the same way.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I would put it this way in half that uh it's probably still the more common perspective that mental health and all of that is like uh a hospital off in the corner of our property when it should be dead center in the the pathway we call discipleship.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_05: If discipleship is is uh removing the obstacles between us and the version of us God created us to be, then those obstacles are resident in our souls.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_05: So anything that ministers to our soul, delivers our soul, prospers our soul, restores our soul should be considered part of discipleship.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_05: If we can get both sides, the pastor side and the counselor side to see that.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_05: If you're called to be a mental health professional, you're called to help prosper souls and remove resistance and blockages and whatever.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_05: I'm excited because these conversations are easier and easier to have.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_05: I'm excited you guys are wrestling with it and you're you're you're proactive about it.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you know, I've been I've been doing this since 19, I got saved in 76, got my master's in the late 80s, but I was already counseling, and basically I was doing freedom stuff.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_05: Back then we called it life enrichment.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_05: But it was the same, it's all it's all the same principles, just repackaged a little bit.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_05: Gosh, you wouldn't believe the grief I'd get, particularly through the 80s.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_05: It was horrible, man.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_05: And one of the verses they would always quote was uh 2 Corinthians 5, 17.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_05: If any man be in Christ, he's a new creation.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_05: You know, behold, all things become new or whatever.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_05: And and they'd say, Well, why do you need to talk about your past?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_05: It's under the blood, whatever.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_05: And I'd be like, Oh my gosh.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I wish I had a dollar for every time somebody said that to me.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_05: But but that same pastor, he'd he'd catch me off to the side in private sometime, and he'd start pouring his heart out, and God would use me to you know touch him or bless him or do something.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I I wouldn't do it right then, but later I'd say, now you realize that little breakthrough you had, we talked about your past to get there.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_05: Because maybe it went back to your dad or your mom or whatever.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_05: It's been fun.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Chip, that really uh uh that really was a click, a light bulb that went off that it mental health is really seen as something kind of like in addition to like discipleship is the centerpiece.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: We all need to draw closer to Jesus and hey, watch out for your mental health.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like if we follow Jesus' teachings and we really take in Scripture, uh we we would be taking in good mental health teachings and principles.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_05: If you look at the Sermon of the Mount a certain way, it's it's a mental health thing.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_05: The peaceful, the blessed are those who mourn.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_05: What does that mean?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_05: Healthy grief?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_05: Among other things.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_08: But um I I want to say too, I think a lot of people are just um prideful.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_08: They don't want anybody, uh you know, again, I'm gonna go back to my camp.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_08: I can speak for my guys.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_08: Um you know, they're ashamed.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_08: They don't want to talk to anybody about their problems, they don't want anybody to know they have any problems, so they live a life covered.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_08: Um and then what happens is when things get exposed, when sin overtakes, moral failures happen, now you're forced into it.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_08: And a lot of guys don't even bounce back from that.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_08: They'll they'll still reject it.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_08: No, I'm not doing that.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_08: You know, it was a one-time thing.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_08: It's like, no, that's been a pattern in your life this whole time.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_08: You're the only one that can't see it.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_08: I think there's I think there's a piece of this too where humility is a big piece, man.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_08: And oh yeah, if you're not humble, yeah, you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to hear it.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_08: That I remember somebody talked to me years ago, they said, You realize this is a pattern in your life, something I was dealing with.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_08: And I said, I what?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_08: And they said, You can't see that.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_08: They said, You keep going from this to this to this.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_08: It's about a three-year cycle.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_08: Wow.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_08: And them saying that was like, wait a second, he's right.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_08: Now the question is, we've identified it.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_08: Now, how am I gonna make it so it's not a cycle moving forward?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_08: I didn't know how.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_08: I needed some help.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_08: Surrounding myself with people and expose it for what is it?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, this is a cycle.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_08: This is a this is a cycle that keeps chasing me down, and I'm losing every time.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_08: I don't want to do this the rest of my life.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_08: Now I have some humility to say, hey, I've noticed something.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_08: Do you see it in me?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_08: And can you help me get past it?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_08: There's a humility piece in this that's required to walk forward in your mental health growth.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Chip, I wanted to mention something.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a young generation that that's that's leaning into authenticity.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're we're we've actually been in a series uh called Overcomers, and we've been addressing very specific things all the way from Easter.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is the overcomer, but but then we attacked overcoming addiction and and overcoming insecurity.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I had one of our our actually our our youth pastor's wife, who she you know, she's she's doing a great job.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: She was she was she came to our church when she was six.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: She was discipled by my wife, you know.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, she's now in her you know mid to late twenties.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: She's an amazing leader.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I gave her, I said, you're gonna preach, and you're gonna preach, because she was ready on on your testimony, and and she delivered a message on overcoming anxiety.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is this is a young lady who came to Jesus literally when she was six with her family.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's she'd grown up here uh in church, around church.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: She's been faithful, she has been honoring to her parents, she has been, you know, top, you know, top notch as far as serving the Lord, loving the Lord, being a disciple, discipling.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean that, and about about four four or five years ago, went through, had a very, very significant anxiety attack and hospitalization, like a whole nother, like a whole nother level of concern.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Her husband, who was our youth pastor, like all the time when they were when he was stepping into ministry, and uh, and we're talking about Baker acted, we're talking about a process of rehabilitation and recovering.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: When people heard her now, now on the other side, well healed, the process of being in being on medication and and understand and the maybe maybe how humbling she felt in the moment, but then understanding this is part of the process of healing.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that that message was one of the most powerful moments for our whole church to hear from the voice of a person who was born, like literally since a child.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: She wasn't the prodigal who went away and got in the world in church, you know, married, you know, you know, having children, but rather having children, and and this happens.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and and she's able to preach, preach now from a position of of victory.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And hey, this is a continuous journey, but but uh there's a generationship, and I don't know if you've seen it, but there's a young generation who's hungry.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hungry and and looking for help.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_05: I would agree with that.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_05: I would say the hurdle we've got to work with the that generation on is they look for something outside of themselves to be their solution.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_05: It's kind of a soft version of a victim mindset.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_05: And I don't mean all of them.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_05: Any principles, not everybody's not prone to it, but but yeah, that's exciting.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_05: And I agree.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_05: I I would say, you know, I'm 71.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_05: You know who loves my teaching the most?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_05: Is younger, younger leaders like yourselves, and even younger.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_05: The younger they get, the more they like it.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_05: Because I'm kind of raw a little bit, but I'm also practical.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_05: I I'm I'm saying, well, you were if you're dealing with this, you need to look at this and and and able to string the connect the dots.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_05: Like I just did a four-week series for Mental Health Awareness Month.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I hope you checked it out.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_05: If you haven't, please do.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_05: Number one, I'd like your feedback.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_05: But number two, let me tell you the goal of it.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_05: The goal of it was to begin to lay a foundation for how to understand why a born-again Christian loves God in church, reads their Bible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but can still have some area of their life where they act like the devil himself.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_05: How can that be?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_05: And I believe biblically there's ways to explain it.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_05: And it, but we've got to we've got to learn a little bit.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we've got to, we've got to say, okay, I think it's the second message in this in the four-part thing.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_05: I talk about how we become the way that we are.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_05: I might have ministered that at your church, Josh.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_05: I can't remember.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_05: Basically, just three areas.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_05: How do you become the way you are?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_05: Genetics and multi-generational predisposition, early life imprints, and then your life choices.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_05: Now, you take those three things and you you you get to where you you understand them.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna change the way you preach.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna change the way you preach on depression, anxiety, addiction, homosexuality, to be honest.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna change the way you sneak up on issues, and your people will love it.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_05: They will love it.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_05: Because what it does, and I I titled that series, forgive me if I sound like a commercial, but I tired it's Shades of Grace exploring a Jesus-shaped culture.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_05: Why could Jesus look at a uh a woman caught in the act of adultery and and and say, Your sins are forgiven, go sin no more.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_05: Now, I don't think he meant don't ever don't you dare ever sin again.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_05: I think he meant get to the bottom of what got you in this spot.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_05: There's a way to do that.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_05: And it affects how you speak to people and expect it it it it affects what you expect of people.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: So Chip, is the mental health profession Christian or not participating in discipleship, whether they like it or not?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like if they're a good therapist and they don't know the Lord, are they participating in and being a discipler?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm I'm playing around with words and semantics and philosophy.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_05: I understand.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_05: I understand.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, the way I'd say it, I'd love to hear what you guys think.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_05: The way I'd say it is as long as they have some complimentary, overarching help spiritually, because if it's a non-Christian counselor, they're definitely gonna, at the very least, if not worse, they're gonna they're gonna draw someone in a direction of self-sufficiency.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_05: And and you're already in trouble, you're already screwed.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you're you're you know, so uh you'd be surprised how many Christian counselors.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_05: That means they are a Christian and they are a counselor, right?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_05: But you'd be you'd be surprised how few have properly integrated those two.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_05: In other words, I'm a Christian, uh I'm a Christian in here, I'm a Christian out there, but you might never know it.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_05: And that's what I meant earlier about the the mental health profession and the licensure body and all of that getting in your head, because they'll have you convinced you can't pray with people, they'll have you convinced that you can't talk about God.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_05: Now, what I used to do is because it might shock you, but I get a lot of unsafe people come to me as a counselor.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_05: And I'd say, now you realize I'm a pastor, right?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah, that's why I came to you.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_05: Why?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I figured you'd be safe and have your head on straight.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_05: I said, okay.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_05: And I can I can remember one, and this would be representative where you know, two, three, four appointments in, I say, uh, hey, where are you at with my bringing God into this process?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_05: I don't have to, but there's times when there's things that I could share with you that I think might be helpful.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I remember one lady I work with, one of my, she's on my highlight reel.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_05: And uh here's what she said.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_05: She kind of thought of it and she said, Okay, but let's let's call him the man in the corner.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_05: So from then on, I could talk about the man in the corner.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_05: And uh she ended up getting saved, baptized.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know about you guys, but this is on a highlight reel.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_05: I baptized her and served her communion for the first time in her life.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_05: I'm telling you, I still get goosebumps, man.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_05: The first time in her life she ever had communion.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_05: Not and knew what it was.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_05: Ever.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_05: She never had communion.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_05: Oh gosh, it was precious.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_05: What interactions or opinions have you had with or about psychology in the mental health community throughout your time of ministry?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_05: What concerns would a pastor have when he's saying he he's you're meeting with one of your people and you realize, okay, this is this is beyond my capacity.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_05: Both time, energy, and in and and knowledge and skill and whatever.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_05: So you you know you need to pass them into a mental health community.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_05: What are you thinking?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_05: Like what are what are your pros and cons of that?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_08: I'm full pro.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_08: We um we have got to the place now where we are, you know, we'll our staff, our pastoral staff will meet with people.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_08: I don't allow them to meet with someone more than three times concerning a specific topic.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_08: If it needs more than three times, that's they need special help, whether it's a marriage counselor, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a psychiatrist, because we're not equipped to that.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_08: So we we set boundaries.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_08: Um, I don't want to be liable for giving people advice that we've not been trained or equipped on.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_08: And so what we've done is scoured and resourced who in our community is skilled and qualified and is filled with the spirit and will point them back to Jesus that I feel safe sending them to.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_08: And that's been the hard part.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_08: That's been the hard part.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_08: But now we have a list.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_08: Um the piece that makes me nervous is they want to talk to their pastor.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I don't want to talk to them.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_08: They have a stigma in their mind about going beyond me.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_08: I trust you.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_08: And I said, that's great.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_08: I'm not skilled and qualified in this.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_08: I've brought it to this point.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_08: Now I need to hand you to a specialist.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_08: And the the biggest challenge I have is will they take that next step?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_08: And we use that verbiage.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_08: Uh it's a phrase that we use with all kinds of um times where it's time to refer to somebody.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_08: Your next step is we and we we use it in every act, you know, any in any situation, someone's we're dealing with financial issues.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_08: They keep giving benevolence requests.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_08: Well, your next step is to start tithing and honor God with the fruit you've been given.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_08: Okay, will they take that next step?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_08: Will they trust God?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_08: No, maybe not.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_08: Well, you're gonna keep you're gonna keep running low on resource.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_08: Your next step is go to a married small group.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_08: Your next step is take your son and and and go meet with that counselor.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_08: Take your daughter.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_08: Um, so my greatest challenge is do I have enough buy-in with them that they trust the advice I'm giving them is outside of our four walls, is gonna help them.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_08: Truthfully, we've had a lot of people come back and say, yeah, they just gave them coping mechanisms, or they just gave them this system, or they want them to do this, and it had nothing to do with a biblical stance, pointing them to Jesus.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_08: And so there's that, there's that for us.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_08: We've had to change a bunch of stuff with our student ministry because, as Virgil said, man, our young people are hungry.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_08: But I don't want youth leaders just pointing them to put a rubber band on your wrist every time you have that thought, snap your wrist, you know, that kind of stuff.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_08: That's come on, man.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_08: It's got to be bigger than that.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_08: Um, nor do I want young people um giving advice to kids that are cutting themselves, that have not been trained in self-harm or self-medicating.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_08: And so finding the right resources outside the church have been difficult.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_08: So now we're trying to develop, as you are and others, resources within the church.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_08: Hey, let me introduce you to my friend Riz.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_08: Riz is a certified counselor.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_08: This is his home.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_08: He's filled with the Holy Spirit.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_08: He is a young man, he can identify and through relationship enter that.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_08: And that's how it started with me and you is can me and you have a relationship first.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_08: A lot of times there's a disconnect.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_08: I don't want to go, they they think they got to go lay on the couch in an office at the clinic.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_08: So I think this is helping us to bridge the gap of even the mindset of what does it look like?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_08: Counseling's awesome.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_08: Every time I look, someone asked me recently, what's it like talking to Chip?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_08: I was like, it's like talking to 70-year-old me.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_08: Just someone's walked 40 more years, 30 more years than I have, and he can relate.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_08: They think, oh, it's gonna be it's gonna be weird, you know.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_05: Listen, here's the here's the here's another part that that in the right context, we need to be able to say, yeah, it isn't all on us.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_05: Because when you send that person to that counselor, they gotta freaking do their job.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_05: And the other side of this coin is, and all you counselors who may hear this or hear it in some other context, some of them just aren't very good at what they do.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_05: Or they're good at this part of counseling and not this.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I'll give you grace for that.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_05: But like what you said about they think they're gonna go and lie on a couch.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that's another aspect of what I meant about the pressure they get from the licensure board.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_05: I be creative when you meet with people.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_05: Meet with some of them over a cup of coffee.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um, change the change how the how the meeting feels.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_05: Cut some jokes.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and I promise you, man, there's there's some I've talked to.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_05: Lord Jesus, they wouldn't do that.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's so unprofessional.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I gotta be honest with you, and go back to what Virgil was talking about, the young people, man, they're just looking at somebody they can relate to.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_08: My first call with Chip, he's got records on the back walls at the doors.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_08: I think they get a Led Zeppelin t-shirt on and there was a Who poster or something.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_08: I'm like, oh my gosh, I grew up with 60s rock and rolls here.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_08: My dad is like, wait, this is the guy that I'm gonna be counseling with?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_08: You set me at ease with your with your t-shirt and your poster.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_08: And I think we could do it again.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_08: It's it's it's like the guy that the pastor that always wears the suit and tie.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_08: It's like, dude, that thing's over.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_08: There's a time and a season for that.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_08: But if you're a suit and tie guy, wear it and preach them with suit and tie.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_08: But if you're not, you're just doing it because you think that's the costume, your church isn't gonna grow.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_08: Um, so I think the relatable the relatability piece is huge.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I was gonna say uh on a similar thread, you know, um, we had to come to a conclusion, especially again, Hispanic culture, right?
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh pastor, pastor, you know, they think the pastors, you know, uh, you know, if it's not a pastor, they can't help it.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: If it is, then it can.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and so we had to come to a point to give ourselves the permission to say we are a church, we're not a counseling center yet, unless until and unless the Lord leads us to that.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we had to be okay with that.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and so what we did is we strategically partnered uh with multiple uh Christian counseling, we specifically uh uh aim for Christian counseling uh centers and Christian counselors that we we said, hey, as a church, can we partner with you?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh where if it's a member of the church, we will cover a certain amount of sessions.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: If it's somebody who's attending, we will also help them in some way.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: But can we come come to a partnership and we tell people, hey, uh when you have a paper cut, you know, you can put a band-aid, we can take care of things, but sometimes we have a fracture, you can't put a band-aid on that.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so some people some people are coming with some heavy, heavy things uh that aren't gonna get resolved in a uh you know, in a session with a pastor or even in two, it's gonna require some follow-up.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we specifically did that.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have a uh a challenge where sometimes in our context we have a Spanish only speaker, and then finding uh finding that sometimes has been tricky, which has put us in a place where we're praying about starting a counseling center with trained, certified, licensed counselors in the future, being able to do it in both languages.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big prayer that I have uh because we're seeing the need.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing a huge need for it.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_08: I just want to pick you back real quick.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_08: Virg, I I'm I'm a white guy at the pastors in the international church.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_08: Um and it's very difficult to have this conversation with nationalities because it's a social thing in their mind.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_08: Uh it's been demonized that there's something wrong with them.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_08: And we have this thing too about the man of God.
• 56:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_08: And I'm like, bro, I'm I'm I'm I'm a man of God.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_08: I'm not the man of God.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_08: And I think part of us too, it's it's a cultural thing.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_08: We have to break that down.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_08: I can't be all things to all men.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_08: I'll be who I can be.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_08: But and I think there's a piece of this where we've leveraged the opposite.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_08: And it's hurting us now.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, he's the man of God because we've used it as control and manipulation in the past.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_08: I'm the man of God.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_08: Why would you go do this outside this house?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_08: You should have come to us.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_08: Now it's flipping on us.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_08: And if we don't have the resources and you claim to be the man of God, then you better have all the answers.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_08: Comes back again to that humility thing.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_08: I don't have all the answers, but I know someone that does.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_08: Let me connect you to my friend Virgil.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_08: He speaks Spanish, he loves people, he's walked through this and be willing to diversify.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_08: For for a long time, the cultures have said the pastor is the only one that can do it.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_08: And I think there's a big piece of this too of the diversity of the gifts.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_08: This is a gift, this is a gift that God's given people.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_08: Chip has a gift that is needs to be broadened and strengthened and developed and multiplied, just like children's workers, just like worship leaders, just like anything you think that's going to help somebody in their advancement with their spiritual growth.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_08: So part of this is a two-edged sword.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_08: We've asked them to come and only let us be the guy that does everything.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_08: Well, now it's biting us in the butt and we don't have the answers.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: Chip, you know, Chip, you know what's helped us in in our context, and and I say us, my wife and I, especially in our leadership, is we we have begun to normalize in order to in order to demystify counseling.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we have begun to normalize saying, oh yeah, when we preach together sometimes, my wife and I will say, Oh yeah, when we when we meet with our marriage counselor, uh and so what we're saying, we're doing that because we don't have all we don't have all the answers.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we need the voices of, you know, and and so what we're doing is we're creating a a a new terminology in some context uh where they weren't hearing that from my dad in that generation of pastors.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't here, they weren't hearing that.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're saying, hey, and by the way, uh, can I recommend finding a Christian counselor that'll help your marriage?
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it'll help you, you know.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so so so we have strategically and intentionally begun to use it in not, hey, go get it, is this has helped us.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: We want to recommend it for you.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I I love the phrase language creates culture.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_05: And part of what I feel like I'm called to do is give you guys language to talk this stuff and put it in your sermons and and give you give you ways to say it.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you can get them lots of places, books and other people, but but that's one of my goals.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_05: One of my goals is to get like like when I first got to see Clubs, we had a, I don't know, what do we call it, Joey Care team or something?
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_05: And uh, you know, whatever.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_05: I would I would say it was very over-spiritualized.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_05: Probably the if not the first, the second.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_05: But I'm talking like way at the front end, I I met with the team, and I was kind of the the de facto leader now that I'm in.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_05: And um, so I think I gave it a meeting or so, not very many though.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_05: And I just got I just got mad.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_05: I said, okay, time out, guys.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_05: We gotta change some stuff.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_05: I said, number one, our terminology is horrible.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_05: It's horrible.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_05: What is our target?
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_05: Our target is people outside of the church.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_05: Our target is people who don't live in church, don't work for church, they come to church.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_05: Well, guess what?
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_05: They don't talk like this.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_05: They don't talk like this, man.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_05: And I picked up a brochure that we had, even for freedom, and I said, This is embarrassing.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_05: It's embarrassing.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_05: You know, a hundred people in our church would read this and know what it's saying.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_05: Change it.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_05: I like, for example, I said, and this isn't really a spiritual issue, but I said, don't ever use the term support groups.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_05: Don't ever use it again.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_05: Why?
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_05: Because as soon as the person out in the congregation hears support groups, they think addiction recovery.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_05: And they right away go, Well, I'm not an addict.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_05: So guess what?
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_05: They don't hear another word you're saying.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_05: Well, what do you want us to call them?
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_05: Call them growth groups, call them life groups, call them whatever you want to call them.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_05: Do not call them support groups.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_05: And I think it took a year to get them to stop.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_05: But what was so cool is slowly but surely our language changed.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_05: And the way we would look at a situation, talk about that situation, come up with solutions.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_05: Like I love this quote.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_05: How you define a problem shapes your solution.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_05: How you define a problem, well, if I believe the problem is you're not reading your Bible enough, I'm going to shape a solution.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's just not only is it not helpful, it's shaming.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_05: And we end up doing more harm than good.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_05: Now, some of what I just said applies to the other side of this discussion, the mental health community.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_05: They love their, they love their language, they love talking like oh, this, you know, words that are this long.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_05: And I've told several of them over the years that want to be more uh engaging and relevant, and I'll say, well, you gotta change the way you talk.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_05: Um, don't use these big crazy words.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um you don't have to diagnose somebody.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I know if you're if you're charging them and they're gonna get medication, oh, you gotta do the DSM 4 and 5 or whatever we're on now and whatever, but but you don't have to label everybody.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_05: And there's just some simple things we can do.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_08: And you and you and you and Greg have helped us and our guys, specifically the retreat center, and it goes back to what Virgil was saying.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_08: Like when you normalize it for yourself, it makes it normal for everybody else.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_08: When you said to our team, we're all jacked up, starting with me.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_08: Wait a second.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_08: He's he's the pastor.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_08: He wait, he was depressed.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_08: I talk about my depression, I talk about anxiety, I talk about it all the time.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_08: It's a big part of my life.
• 1:02:38
  unknown: Right.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_08: Because it's freedom for me.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_08: I'm not where I used to be, and I want them to have health.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_08: And you know what?
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_08: The number one thing I hear of why people come to church and say, Man, you're relatable.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_08: We can we can relate to your story.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_08: Because we're going through that.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_08: Now, will you pray with us and will you meet with us?
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_08: And it's like, go back to this thing with with Virgil, like what you're doing is powerful because it's um it's opening the door for the next generation to get what they need.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_08: We we're setting them up for greater success than the generation before us.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_08: Well, we didn't want anybody to know.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_08: You know, I I most pastors, kids, and I'm one, you're on, we don't talk about the problems to the church people.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_08: Nobody's gonna know that we yell in our house, nobody's gonna know that we have dysfunction.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_08: We have to put on this pretty picture all the time.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_08: And dude, that's a scary place to be too.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_08: And the soon as we could take that mask off and be like, I'm jacked up too, and I'm on a journey.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_08: Now we've paved the road for everybody else because the trust of the man of God or the pastor, if he's walking that journey, oh, it's safe for me too.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_08: I think that's the thing we've got to do, Chip, even greater, is um stop making it look like the man of God's got it all together and you're the ones that are jacked up, and that's why I have the pulpit and you're sitting in the pew.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_08: Dude, I'm just the guy that's chosen to speak this week, and next week he can remove me and put somebody else in here.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I think that's how you that's how you build relationships.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_08: Transparency.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_05: Something I was thinking about.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we always talk about how to develop our you know, homegrown leaders.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_05: What if we could develop homegrown counselors?
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_05: Like, for instance, now, this is not a perfect plan, trust me.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_05: You you go to your 20-year 20-year-old guy you're talking to, Josh.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_05: And this is totally off the top of my head, so it's going to be very flawed.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_05: And you sit down and you talk and you say, Hey, what where do you see yourself in five years?
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_05: Well, uh, you know, I want to be I want to be working with you, and I want to be using my gifts in this way and counseling, and I want to bring that into the church.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_05: Let's say he's savvy enough that he can say something somewhere along those lines.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_05: So then you say, or maybe he can't, and you do, and you say, Well, this is what I'm looking for.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_05: I'm looking for someone that they can have a counseling practice on the side, but their focus is the kingdom of God.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_05: The kingdom of God, the kingdom of God.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_05: And yeah, they may not make as much money, but they're gonna make a good living.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_05: And and you and you kind of talk it out, and the kid says, I'm in, man.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I want.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I want right there.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I want.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_05: What if we said, okay, you it sounds like you got a plan.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_05: I assume you're figuring out a way to pay for it.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_05: We'll give you X amount toward it.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_05: Nowhere near paying for it, though, because here's my point.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_05: You don't want to set yourself up to have a problem when they get pulled somewhere else.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_05: But you do it enough to make a statement of support, but not so much that you're screwed later.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_05: But here's what you do say I assume you may have to take out loans.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_05: As long as you stick with our plan, we'll pay back your loans.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_05: If you don't stick with us, we're not gonna pay back your loans.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_05: See what I'm trying to do there?
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_05: What I'm trying to figure out, and I'm not saying that's a perfect plan, but what I'm trying to say is how could we get people to go outside of the church to get the training they need, but stay in the church?
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a good that's a good uh that's a good uh uh perspective and approach.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and my wife and I are praying, we're really praying about this because of the need we're identifying, because of the reality that we have a lot of people that don't just need counseling, but they really need it in Spanish, and there's a limitation there.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we're seeing this is a huge need, not to mention just in the church, not to mention outside, you know, with with everybody.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love that that idea, and and even now there's a few a few young people, kind of new grads that are literally finishing their their degrees in in counseling or in psychology.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I'm thinking in my head, how do we how do we call it out in them, right?
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do we how do we how do we tap them on the shoulders?
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: shoulder and say hey we see ministry and you we see comment that's how it's that's how how it's been for me the people that I looked up on the journey but but you tap them on the shoulder and I see something I'm envisioning we're envisioning something for the future do you see it do you feel it you know but but being intentional that's I find myself in that in that tension right now of okay we're building a church this might not be the what the normal you know build the church categories and you know positions are but if we're really going to disciple well and and shepherd well uh I think there's something there's something there.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's something there.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_05: Well if we believe that psychology and and some of the tricks of the trade of mental health should be a part of our mainstream discipling process then it it is how we should build our staff for the future.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_05: I thought you know I'm just thinking of different ways you could even tweak it.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_05: You'd have to check in each of your states but like in South Carolina the whole licensure website ends with this statement.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I need to double check to make sure it still does but it ended with this statement unless in other words everything we just said is not applicable if you work for the under the auspices or sponsorship of a local church.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_05: So here's the thing most people don't know this I'm I'm not licensed I'm not a licensed counselor why because when I started the process I realized all it got me was third party payment insurance and whatever I I didn't plan on doing that.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_05: And what I realized was I'm gonna pay a bunch of money for one thing.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_05: And then here's the deal if you come under their umbrella you got to live by their rules.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_05: Well I don't have to live by their rules now there's some of them I do you know some of the big big ones obvious ones but I've had a 35 year career counseling all of it virtually maybe 2% all of it under this auspices and sponsorship of a local church.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_05: Now my point being I'd want to be open and really straightforward and honest with the people but you could literally if your states operate the same way ours does you could literally talk to one of these young people and say here's the deal you don't have to be licensed and that cuts out a lot of expense and keeps them out of a situation where they're being discipled by a secular system.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah I I I'm gonna just say that what you guys are talking about is we're living in the same place Virgil because I'm outsourcing a lot of this yeah there's a young lady in Fort Worth that's been um we got connected with her through some other people she's part of the Gateway network and stuff she's phenomenal this morning I gave a referral to her again she's she's she's meeting with all of the women on my team which is 10 plus and then anybody else that comes I just they love her.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_08: Dr.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_08: Cass I just give her so she's they recognized her there.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_08: So they brought her in just like they would a worship leader or a children's pastor or a campus pastor.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_08: And I think part of this is you've got to recognize again we vocalize the gifts hey we have a need for worship leaders.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_08: Well of course we're gonna talk about that we're gonna raise up worship leaders missions directors uh campus pastors right when it takes a pastor like Chip and like Virgil and Joey to say well wait a second as our church gets larger the needs are going to be greater.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_08: Wouldn't it be great to have some people on our team or right here under this roof I think it's powerful again because when they're tied in house it's so much better.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_08: It's not this virtual thing.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_08: I love Chip and my greatest challenge with Chip is I don't get to see him enough.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_08: I want to go hang out with him.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_08: I want to see him on a Sunday I want to play golf with him.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_08: I want to drink coffee um so whether in the house it's even tighter of wait a second that that person goes to our church I know them I've seen them and they can they can serve here in the house I think it's powerful.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah you just you just touched on a an example of what I meant earlier about some of the rules that you'd be forced to live under they would call what you just described with me they would call that a dual role relationship and they would not allow me to see you as a counselor because if I'm your friend I can't be your counselor.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I think it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_08: I only want to be an I'm not gonna go to a counselor if I don't have some sort of relationship.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_08: Absolutely for me and I think for most Christians that's the thing that trust barrier is like are they credible?
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_08: Do I know them?
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_08: And am I just a dollar to them you've you've texted me chip multiple times.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_08: You know I've been walking through a bunch of stuff even this week you text hey man how you doing how you remember grief is an emotion it's a powerful honoring tool.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_08: Outside of that I don't I don't want to just have to check in I want somebody that cares for my soul in a greater level and it comes under the pastoral guidelines pastoral covering per se because we can offer through the church something that a counseling can't well I'm not I'm not on call you you have to pay you got to set up an appointment it's like if I need something I can text it and obviously there has to be boundaries and those kind of things I get that absolutely but man you've made yourself available dude you said outside of our call you need something call me text me that's meant the world beyond the regular monthly call yeah and that's a much shorter list like I wouldn't let Joey do that.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah he told me he told me don't give my number to Joey he uh yeah he makes me use the WhatsApp makes me use whats app with him I was going to say you probably have the you probably have the Google number right that forwards to a voicemail oh man this is awesome I'm so glad you guys were willing to do it yeah man I'm doing another one like this but with counselors uh I'm doing one with a pastor friend who's also a counselor gentleman named Armando up in New York City I don't know uh I don't know if he was at that same retreat Virgil or not I don't think so so we're gonna get on and talk about the same kind of conversation but from that side of things should be fun probably not quite as lively as this one but it'll be it'll be fun.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah hey it's nice meeting y'all great meeting you guys great to meet you Joey Virgil thank you great to meet you sir Josh Josh you're the first person in the history of the world who has defended me against Chip you're the first that is true if I can figure out a way if I can figure out a way I'm gonna mute you so you can't cheer with me I mean Josh that's even a first with my wife man she's never even done that listen I I did the marriage intensive with my wife and Chip.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_05: I thought my wife would come to the rescue no no I know what it's like I get it last only man standing I I forgot I forgot about that yeah she did leave you hanging out there a little bit