Transcript

The Demon Crowley · HEEL HAVOC

GATOR: Hello and welcome to another episode of Heel Havoc. I'm your boy Gator, and I'm sorry this one's a little late, but I had to make sure it was perfect. Had to make sure everything was right because it's about one of my favorite topics. Yes, it is. Supernatural fandom fans of the family, let me know where you're at because this show is about the demon Crowley. Ooh, yeah, I know as soon as I said that, everybody listening just said. Or heard in the back of their head minds as hello boys. ⁓ Yes, the demon who wasn't really the villain, in my opinion. I mean, sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. And Crowley is perfect for this show because he's not a traditional villain. He becomes an antagonist. He's someone you actually can root for. The big question on this episode is one you're gonna have to answer for yourself, and that is was Crowley Truly evil or just really good at pretending he didn't care. So he's a demon. He became king of hell. He betrayed the Winchesters more times than we could count. So obviously yes, he's the bad guy. He's a terrible guy. Except somehow he also saved their lives, helped stop the apocalypse. Fought alongside the Winchesters and developed one of the strangest friendships in the entire series. So today on Hill Havoc, we're putting Crowley on the heel or no heel trial. Is he a villain or just the guy you call when the actual villains show up? Because yes, you don't send a mouse in to fight a rat, you send your own rat in, because that's what he is, and that is what you need sometimes. Let's start off with human Crowley. Who was Ferguson McLeod? Before Crowley became the king of hell and the king of the crossroads, he was just Burgess, a Scottish man who lived in the 17th century. And he wasn't actually a saint when he was alive. I mean, his human life gives us clues about the man Crowley would become. I mean, he was selfish, ambitious, manipulative, desperate for power, and willing to make deals. And eventually, he becomes a crossroad demon which led him straight to the To the King of the Crossroads. One of my you know, I loved King of the Crossroads Crowley myself. I think it was a lot more interesting than the King of Hell Crowley, but you know what? Everything starts with a deal there. And Crowley became a demon after making a deal that condemned his soul. And that's one of the first interesting things about him. We all know that. Remember his son outed him for a couple inches below the belt, if you know what I mean. Which is he put. Just wanted to reach double digits. Man, he had a comeback for everything. I mean, it's one of the most interesting things because he knows exactly what hell is like. He knows what humans become. I mean, what they are done, what happens to what demons do to humans. He experienced it. Because he used to be one. And that gives Crowley something most demons don't have, and that's perspective. So, Enter the King of Hell. Because a crossroad crowley, man, he was just ambitious as all hell and eventually gets there. So he rises through the ranks and becomes the king of hell, thanks to basically the other the bigger, badder demon not wanting it, just wanting to live his life. So this is where it becomes incredibly interesting because now he's given all the power of hell and he doesn't want to destroy the world. He wants to run it. That's an important distinguish distinction, ladies and gentlemen. Cause Lucifer wanted to burn it all down, burn it to the ground, and it's his world. Crowley, on the other hand, why destroy it when you can own it? You know one of my fa speaking of that, one of my favorite portions of this was whenever ⁓ they're doing the bidding for ⁓ Kevin Tran, the tablet, and he says I bid the moon and Dean like the moon? And then he's like, What? You think a but a man like Butt named Buzz doesn't get to ⁓ go to the moon without making a deal? That was just awesome. Best some of the great writing. I mean, hands off to all the writers of Supernatural. They kept it interesting for 15 seasons. So we know Crowley is a businessman first. This is one of the best ways to actually describe him because Crowley treats hell like a corporation. Deals, contracts, negotiations, leverage. Q notation there. Information. He isn't usually the guy kicking the door down. He's the guy already owns the building. So he could just open it up. I mean, he wants all of that power. I mean, he's he wants to grow and he recognizes the power of the deal. Now that's an important portion of Crowley as a home ⁓ one thing, because he has always said make a deal, keep a deal. So there is a little bit of honor to his ⁓ rationality. I mean, because let's face it, the demon Crowley is just, I mean, a businessman with power. But his relationship with the Winchesters is where it gets really good from the moment that he meets them. He is on their side. And this is this is an important distinguish because a lot of people look at him as a demon who's always trying to look out for himself. And yes, of course. Pretty much everybody in the show is. Except for Dean. God bless Dean. We will never get another character like him. So Crowley meets the Winchesters and gives them the cult, the one thing they need to kill the devil, which he thinks it can actually happen. And they use it, and of course it fails, but he gives it to them knowing that that's signing his own death mark. I mean, it's signing his own death warrant. He knows he isn't gonna be hunted after that part. So Crowley spends years fighting with the Winchesters while simultaneously becoming one of their most useful allies. I mean, doesn't that sound weird? It's because they have different views on how things are supposed to go and how it's supposed to be. I mean, he's portrayed them, then he rescues them, he manipulated them, and then he gives them information. He fought alongside them, then he tries to kill them. Then he saves the world with. Basically, his relationship as one with the Winchesters is one of the most I mean confusing and complicated relationships in the whole supernatural fandom. I mean, I find it the most interesting myself because Crowley never changes. I mean, so to speak. He's always the demon Crowley, but his motives change. And what he wants changes, but never him and how he wants to get it. So That being said, let's talk about Crowley and Bobby. This is one of the most unexpected relationships in the series because Crowley develops a strange respect for Bobby. I mean, their interaction interactions are hilarious because neither man fully trusts the other. And we know how grouchy and grumpy Bobby is and how annoyingly arrogant Crowley is. It was a match made in the perfect no category. I mean Crowley doesn't really do friendship, but Bobby gets surprisingly close, to be honest. Closer, the only person closer than Bobby to Crowley is actually Dean. And I think that's a mutual respect between them and myself. Because ⁓ it also leads to one of the most funniest parts in the entire series where Bobby makes a deal to find the location of death. I was like, and then I was like, Sam, ⁓ while he's explaining all this, he's like being all noble and stuff. Sam's first instinct, did you kiss him? And then Dean immediately looks like, ⁓ my God, did you? Like that was the most important thing in the room, not where death is, how can they stop him? How can they get a hold of this? But no, did Bobby kiss Crowley? And Bobby's like, no. But then Crowley pulls up a screenshot or a picture of him kissing Bobby. And it's one of the greatest single five minutes exchanges in that entire series because I mean he was like, Why'd you have to take a picture? And Crowley right back, why'd you have to use tongue? It was a great back and forth between them. And I loved every time Crowley and Bobby were on the screen together because it was a back and forth that neither one of them were going to give up. So That being said, like I said, the most important friendship that you cannot deny is Crowley and Dean. There is somehow a friendship that was born there. And I think we see a lot of that where Crowley not only comes to enjoy Dean's company, but actually care for Dean. And that's weird coming from a demon. I mean, this I mean, Crowley and Dean constantly insult each other, but they understand each other. I mean both are pragmatic, sarcastic, willing to get their hands dirty, and willing to make morally questionable decisions. The difference? Dean thinks he's fighting for the good guys. Crowley doesn't care about being one. But the big one the season where Dean is demon Dean and he's traveling the road with Crowley, and I think that friendship g grows even stronger in Crowley's mind, not necessarily Dean's, but I think honestly, there is a mutual respect there. And even after they get the demon out of Dean, there's still that respect and that caring about Crowley. Almost borderline trust. And I think every time Dean and Crowley teamed up, it was going to be a good ex ⁓ adventure and a great episode. Because we saw after the I was like, the they get the mark of Cain and all that, then they go into the Leviathan problem. Now Crowley realizes some threats are bigger than hell. And the Leviathans are the example and the period at the end of the sentence. Suddenly, the demon who wants to rule humanity is helping the Winchester save it. Now, this is after he tries to make a deal with the Leviathans. Now he tr a businessman first, as we've already discussed. He tries to make a deal to get what he wants in exchange, but Leviathan's like, why would I even consider making a deal with you? So the Demon Crowley does what Demon Crowley does best. He looks out for number one and switches sides. Why? Because if the Leviathans win, Crowley loses too because the Leviathans aren't going to be satisfied with just there's not going be anything left. Nobody's going to make deals, nobody's going to come to hell. They're just all food at that point. And that's Crowley in a nutshell. He doesn't need to become a hero, he just needs to realize that. That the alternative is worth. He literally picks the lesser of two evils, ironically. So we have the king of hell fighting Lucifer, but also there's also that back and forth with Lucifer. So Crowley versus Lucifer is another big and constant. This is your biggest, I mean, debate in the entire series. I mean, Crowley hates Lucifer. Why? Partly because Lucifer is a threat to his power. Partly because Crowley genuinely doesn't want Lucifer controlling hell again. And partly because Crowley has become attached to the world he's trying to control. Because he thinks he could do it better. That is the simple truth between him and Lucifer. It is both of them want to do the same thing, but in different ways. I mean, so Crowley fighting evil does that make him good? Or because he doesn't want anyone else sitting on his throne. His throne, the king of hell, of course. So when you go with Lucifer and Crowley, it is a constant back and forth with one getting the upper hand and then the other one getting the upper hand and then one getting the upper hand and then the other getting the upper hand. But if you notice Crowley never loses the upper hand because Lucifer wins, it's because others are weaker than him and give in. So Crowley is the king of hell. I mean, his obsession with power is important. I mean, he doesn't want to destroy hell. He wants to organize it. Basically, the demon equivalent of the guy who takes over the company and immediately starts restructuring the departments. Except employees are tortured souls. He just wants to make it more efficient, more torturous in a modern way. But He doesn't really want it. I mean, the whole thing, if you look at him, once he gets the power, he really does everything he can to avoid it. Now, this is the weirdest thing. Someone who wants power and the authority and the obligations and everything hates being in charge. Weird. It's one of the weirdest situations I've ever seen in a series. But one of the after he becomes the king of hell and all that, now we enter Rowena. Yes, his human mother, who turns out to be witch, which explains a lot. But this also brings a human element to Crowley because while he's his mother, she hates him, he hates her, but he won't kill her and just be done. I mean, their relationship is the most dysfunctional disaster. I mean, she abandoned him, he resents her, he wants her approval. He hates needing her. And despite everything, he still loves her, as he would put it. Because I mean it shows how human he really is and how much he has evolved. I mean, because Rowena, even you know, one of my favorite quotes ⁓ comes from the three ten to Yuma, Russell Crowe. and he's punishing the guy that's tracking him down and after he's done, and he's got him in a little chokehold, and this is after he's insulted his mother and all that, and he said he whispers in his ear, even bad men love their mamas. That was never so much true than Rowena and Crowley. Because their back and forth is not so much a loving point, but even though they both get sad when they think the other one is gone for good, or is gone for good in certain points, but they feed off of each other's emotion, I guess you would say, as well as need to become more powerful and They use each other to beg their ending goal, but they get upset when the other one doesn't acknowledge it. It's weird. It's like a puppy w wanting a treat for d sitting ⁓ properly or fetching or something like that and not getting it. It's weird. I mean it's that was one of the most weirdest things going back and watching it every single time I do, which I have watched the series over and over again. I'm actually currently on my ninth time watching it. So But if Crowley spends centuries pretending he doesn't care about anyone, then his mother walks into the room and suddenly the mask slips a bit. Why do you think that is? Let me know in the comments. So that being said, let's get to the human side of Crowley, the demon, not Crowley the human. I mean this is One of the biggest arguments for Crowley isn't really a villain because throughout the series, Crowley repeatedly demonstrates loyalty, affection, even, fear, jealousy, loneliness. Loneliness is one of the biggest ones. I mean, he at the end of the day feels tired. I mean, he wants someone to just be his buddy, as it shows with Demon Dean in there. But at the end, it's genuine sacrifice. I mean, demons aren't supposed to care. And Crowley does. I mean, that's his weakness. That's his true weakness that he doesn't let anybody see. But I mean, if you look at it whenever they're curing a demon for that one to close the gates of hell, and he just wants to be loved. I mean, all this power, and he at the end of the day, just wants to be loved. That is the simplicity of it. And the truth comes out. And even though all if the one thing you could say is all the power in the world can't buy you the one thing you cannot get without caring and love. So that's really where his humanity shows the most. But Crowley's biggest problem is he wants to be loved without admitting he needs anyone. He wants people to love him for no reason. I mean, he constantly surrounds himself with people. While pretending he's completely alone, he wants power, respect, loyalty, friendship, and family. But he doesn't want anyone to know he wants those things. So what does he do? He insults them, manipulates them, pushes them away, and then gets angry when they leave. I mean, I mean he is the bad side of a relationship, let's face it. I mean, he is doing all the things to drive people away that he wants to get closer. So over the series, I mean, Crowley just becomes too human. I mean, the heart of the series, I mean, Crowley begins as a demon, but the longer he spins around humans, the Winchesters and others. The more human he actually becomes. I mean, the Winchesters actually influenced him. They showed him how to care and they I mean, I think the love that they have for their brothers, ⁓ each other, sh and Castiel and Bobby shows Crowley, I mean, that it ain't all about power. And Bobby influences him. Rowena influences him even. Even his enemies influence him. Eventually, Crowley doesn't quite fit in hell anymore. But he doesn't fit in heaven either. He's stuck somewhere in between, which that puts him right on earth, which to be honest, That's where he belonged. He belonged on the side fighting. I mean, that's what he is. He's a fighter. He wants to be the hero. He wants to be the guy that everybody looked to at one point in time was like, That was me. I did that. But His attitude drives him away. I mean, that's a simple truth. I mean, you can't deny it. Crowley biggest flaw is Crowley himself. So, what does that mean about his final sacrifice? Season twelve, all along the watchtower. Crowley discovers that Lucifer is becoming a threat again. Of course, he came back. He's Lucifer is just being Lucifer. Instead of simply running. Crowley makes the ultimate sacrifice. He's fighting Lucifer again with the Winchesters. He uses himself as part of a plan to trap Lucifer. He knows it could cost him his life, and it does. The King of Hell dies trying to stop the devil. That's not exactly a resume of a traditional villain. Even at when at all the episodes we see Crowley, it's all moose, squirrel, hello boys, bunch of gibber jabber, few insults thrown in there. But the final words of Crowley to the Winchesters. Goodbye, boys. At that point, he knew he wasn't coming back, and he was okay with it. That was such a big moment, in my opinion, in the entire show. And it took 12 seasons to get there because it showed a full arc of how even the most ambitious, power hungry demon. can be your biggest ally in saving the world. So In my opinion, now this is the heel havoc opinion, by the way, was Crowley actually good? My answer? No, he wasn't. He was a demon. Come on. That's what makes him interesting. Crowley did terrible things, manipulated, killed, made deals, betrayed, tortured, and was power hungry. But he also developed genuine relationships and repeatedly chose to oppose threats that were far worse than himself. Crowley wasn't good, but he became better, and that's more interesting, to be honest. So when you compare Crowley to other villains in the entire, not just supernatural, but other things. I mean, let's go DC. Joker, my favorite in DC Universe. Just wanted chaos. Didn't care what happened. I mean, Crowley wanted organization, not chaos. Not necessarily he just wanted power and the way to influence it. I mean, Thanos just Balance and he's willing to kill trillions to get it. Doctor Doom control in a nutshell. Now doctor Doom is probably the closest to Crowley in the entire comic world. But even but if you take Doctor Doom and then combine and shad just sprinkle a little bit of Homelander where you want love and admiration, that's where you would get Crowley. Because Crowley just wants power and belonging. He wants love, admiration, and the power to go with it. So my opinion, he you have Doctor Doom sprinkling some homelander. That's it. That is your perfect crowley. I mean, he was a king of hell and was one of the more human characters on the entire show. Let that sink in. I mean, I I can just hear y'all now. I mean, a lot of y'all are like, you son of a bitch. You're right. I know. That's why it's my show. I do the things. I am the unofficial official expert in villains. Let's face it. Nobody else does it. I just do it better. And even if they do do it, ⁓ they suck at it. So Question number one, was Crowley evil or just self serving? My personal opinion, I think he's self serving. I don't think he had an agenda to be evil. I think it's just how people perceived him because his agenda didn't line up with theirs. Now here's the big question. Did the Winchesters actually redeem Crowley? My opinion, yes. I think, well, actually, I'm gonna change that to a no. I think Crowley redeemed Crowley because the Winchesters influenced him, but ultimately it was Crowley's decision that led him to become what he was. I mean, and as I said earlier, I mean, let me know y'all's opinion. Was Crowley's relationship with Dean genuine? Because I really think it was. I think he cared about Dean and actually trusted him for a moment. I think they were besties. But like all relationships he has, he started looking for the bigger better and it didn't go his way, so he starts poking the bull. But who do you think now this is the big question I want everybody to let me know in the comments who do you think would have been a better long term king of hell? Crowley or Lucifer? I mean, I'm not talking about like Armageddon type thing. I'm talking about just king of hell. And was Crowley's sacrifice really his redemption? I think his redemption was far before that. I think his sacrifice just sealed it. The last question I'm gonna ask. Did Crowley deserve a second chance? Because God knows everybody else came back in that show except for Crowley, which he should have. It's one of the biggest ⁓ upsets in my TV watching experience, but I think Crowley should have been brought back. If nothing else, one last, he got out of whatever, and he jumps into a different body. Whatever the case may be, but I think Crowley deserved a second chance in that. So the verdict is in, in my opinion. Villain, yes. Monster? Sometimes. Hero? Not really. Antihero. Ab so freaking lully. Crowley is a character who proves that being a villain isn't always a permanent condition. He spent centuries doing horrible things, but eventually he found people he cared about. And when it mattered most, he chose them over himself. He is not a he is not a true villain. He is an anti-hero, which sometimes gets viewed as a villain. But in my opinion, I think he's closer to that, closer to a hero than he is a villain. So in closing, I know it has been a long, long 30 minutes, but I'm gonna wrap this up now for you. Growley spent centuries trying to convince everyone. He was the toughest demon in hell. I mean, he built an empire, became a king, made deals, betrayed people. manipulated everyone around him. But in the end, Crowley's greatest accomplishment wasn't ruling hell. It was proving that even a demon could find something worth the dying for. Maybe Crowley wasn't a hero. Maybe he was never supposed to be, but somewhere along the way the king of hell became a little bit human. And that's why Crowley belongs in the Heel Havoc Hall of Fame. Because he was one of the more interesting characters in all of Supernatural. That being said, let's wrap this up and call it a night. I hope y'all have all enjoyed this show. Thank you for tolerating me being a little bit late on this week, but don't worry, I'll be right back on time. Till then, y'all have a great one. Thanks for tuning in. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe. And as always, tune into Heal Havoc. We're here. It's good to be bad.