Latest / Kickin’ It With KeKe: Life, Love, & MINDSET / Ep.# 184: Unlearning Shame: Who Told You That Was Wrong? w/Dr. Tina Sellers

Transcript

Ep.# 184: Unlearning Shame: Who Told You That Was Wrong? w/Dr. Tina Sellers · Kickin’ It With KeKe: Life, Love, & MINDSET

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Kickin' It With Kiki. Kickin' It With Kiki.
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  Speaker 2: Kickin' It With Kiki.
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  Speaker 3: Full of personality.
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  Speaker 1: Switchin' up the story.
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  Speaker 2: Line on God, we makin' history.
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  Speaker 4: Writing books, changing lives. One day at a time. Put
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  Speaker 4: your problems to the side. Enjoy yourself. Freeze your mind.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: All right, welcome back to another episode of Kicking It
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  Speaker 2: With Kiki, Life, Love, and Mindset, where we have healing
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  Speaker 2: conversations about experiences that shape us, stretch us, and sometimes
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  Speaker 2: require us to rethink everything that we know or thought
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  Speaker 2: we knew. Today, we're talking about something that affects far
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  Speaker 2: more of us than we realize, shame, particularly the messages
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  Speaker 2: that we have received about our bodies, sexuality, intimacy, relationships,
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  Speaker 2: and even what we're allowed to desire. My guest, Dr.
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  Speaker 2: Tina Sellers, is a sex and relation health expert, therapist, educator, author,
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  Speaker 2: and lifetime professor whose work helps people heal sexual shame,
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  Speaker 2: religious trauma, and disconnection while reclaiming healthy embodied intimacy. Dr. Tina,
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  Speaker 2: thank you for being a guest today. Thank you for
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: coming to kick it with me.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me, Kiki. I'm so
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  Speaker 4: glad to be here with you.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Dr. Tina is also the author of Sex, God,
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  Speaker 2: and Conservative Church and Shameless Parenting. And her work expands sexuality, relationship, parenting, spirituality,
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  Speaker 2: and healing. So before we get started, I want to
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  Speaker 2: ask you this question.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: After spending decades helping people understand intimacy, connection, and shame,
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  Speaker 2: what has this work taught you about being Dr. Tina?
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  Speaker 4: I think getting clear about the impact of not just shame,
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  Speaker 4: but sexual shame on people's lives and their ability to
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  Speaker 4: bond safely. So give and receive love in a way
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  Speaker 4: that feels like it's fluid and isn't. doesn't get stuck
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  Speaker 4: behind masks and feelings of not good enough. I think
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  Speaker 4: as I've really done a huge deep dive, you know,
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  Speaker 4: multi-decade deep dive on the impact of sexual shame, it
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  Speaker 4: has helped me sort of look at and see where
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  Speaker 4: is shame lurking in my own life. And a reminder
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  Speaker 4: of shame, what shame says to us is always a lie.
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  Speaker 4: It always tells us we're not good enough. We're not
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  Speaker 4: worthy of love. We're not worthy of belonging, of being seen, known, loved,
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  Speaker 4: and accepted, which is very human. And so I just
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  Speaker 4: remind myself, baby girl, you're beloved. You have been since
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  Speaker 4: the day you were born and you are every day.
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  Speaker 4: To be a human is to be radically valuable and
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  Speaker 4: radically imperfect. And both are simultaneously true. Just because we
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: are imperfect and we're always on our journey of learning
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  Speaker 4: doesn't does not take anything away from our belovedness. So
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  Speaker 4: that's what I think it's taught me and what I
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  Speaker 4: am often trying to demonstrate and say to others to
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  Speaker 4: encourage them to see the miracle that they are.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: And I love that. How we see ourselves matter.
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  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 2: Because if we can't see ourselves, we tend to take
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  Speaker 2: on what other people project onto us. And so that
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  Speaker 2: becomes the foundation of who we are. Exactly. I talk
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  Speaker 2: a lot on this show about mindset, but mindset isn't
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  Speaker 2: always something consciously to believe we have to develop it, right?
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  Speaker 2: So sometimes we are operating from messages we were handed
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  Speaker 2: to us along the way from generation to generation, and
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  Speaker 2: it becomes a cycle. But when you use the term,
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  Speaker 2: because we're talking about sexual shame right now, sexual shame,
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  Speaker 2: what does that actually mean? Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: That's a really, really good question. And I would love
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  Speaker 4: to read to you the operational definition, if I could,
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  Speaker 4: of sexual shame, because we actually didn't even study this
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  Speaker 4: until 2017. But when we did study it, it was
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: really interesting because it was a pretty just wide demographic.
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  Speaker 4: They weren't entirely from religious backgrounds. They weren't all of
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  Speaker 4: the same ethnicity or race, but it came up with
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  Speaker 4: a definition that for me was so stunning because it
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  Speaker 4: was what I saw in my clinical room as a
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  Speaker 4: marriage and family therapist, sex therapist, and medical family therapist.
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  Speaker 4: But also I taught in a marriage and family therapy
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  Speaker 4: program for three decades. And it's what I saw in
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  Speaker 4: the lives of some of my students as well. And
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  Speaker 4: so in this, the researcher, Noelle Clark, Dr. Noelle Clark
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  Speaker 4: did a lot of interviews. And then out of these
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  Speaker 4: interviews came this definition. And I love to share it
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  Speaker 4: with people because it's a lurker, like it lurks inside
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  Speaker 4: us sometimes under our cognitive awareness and plays on our life.
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  Speaker 4: So as I read this, I invite you and all
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  Speaker 4: your listeners to think about, does my body feel any
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  Speaker 4: of these things that she's saying? Because sometimes it may
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  Speaker 4: not just be in your head, but as we'll learn,
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  Speaker 4: sexual shame starts pre-verbally for most people. And so it's
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  Speaker 4: a body thing. It's in the wisdom of your body,
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  Speaker 4: which sometimes is, in my opinion, a greater wisdom than
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  Speaker 4: our mind, which is so much a part of being
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  Speaker 4: affected by our conditionings. Okay, so here's the definition. Sexual
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  Speaker 4: shame is a visceral feeling. So it's inner body, a
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  Speaker 4: visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust toward one's own body
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  Speaker 4: and identity as a sexual being and a belief of
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  Speaker 4: being abnormal, inferior, and unworthy. This feeling can be internalized, right?
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  Speaker 4: It goes inside of us. but also manifests in interpersonal relationships,
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  Speaker 4: which is really where it starts. It starts between the
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  Speaker 4: infant or toddler and somebody that they deeply love who
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  Speaker 4: gets mad at them. And we'll talk about that more later.
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  Speaker 4: But so interpersonal relationship, having a negative impact. So here's
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  Speaker 4: the long-term impact. Impact on trust, communication, and physical and
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  Speaker 4: emotional intimacy. right? So how we bring people in and
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  Speaker 4: how we share ourselves and receive others into our heart.
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  Speaker 4: So sexual shame develops across the lifespan, as I'll talk
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  Speaker 4: about in interactions with our interpersonal relationships. So those people
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  Speaker 4: that are deeply important to us, but then once culture
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  Speaker 4: and society layers its views on top of that, and
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  Speaker 4: that creates a subsequent critical self-appraisal. So an internal feedback loop,
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  Speaker 4: an internal critic that takes over then what people have
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  Speaker 4: said and what culture has said and bombards us every day,
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  Speaker 4: unless we heal it, right? We all know this. We
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  Speaker 4: feel it. We hear it, right? This just critical onslaught
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  Speaker 4: that comes all the time. There is also a fear
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  Speaker 4: and uncertainty related to one's power or right to to
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  Speaker 4: make decisions, including safety decisions, related to sexual encounters, along
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  Speaker 4: with an internalized judgment toward one's own sexual desire. So
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  Speaker 4: what that means, let me put that into context. Peggy
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  Speaker 4: Ornstein wrote a book probably a decade ago now called
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: Girls and Sex. She also wrote one called Boys and Sex.
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  Speaker 4: In the Girls and Sex book, she interviewed about 80 girls,
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  Speaker 4: 15 to 22. And she said one of the surprising
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  Speaker 4: things was she'd be talking to these young women who
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  Speaker 4: had a sense of confidence and competence and capability in
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: their life. But then they would get ready to go
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  Speaker 4: out on the weekends and they would put down three,
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  Speaker 4: four and five shots of hard liquor.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 4: Why? Because they didn't know if they could keep themselves
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  Speaker 4: safe out there or if they had the right to.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And this is about how rampant sexual shame is. So,
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  Speaker 4: you know, we have the whole Cornell story that, you know,
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  Speaker 4: has been big in the internet this week. It's for
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: two years old. There was a movie in 2015 called
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: The Hunting Ground that was about how rampant sexual assault
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: is on college campuses. Sexual assault has been rampant in
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  Speaker 4: our society for years and it's only been increasing. Why?
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  Speaker 4: Because when girls come forward, they're still blamed. They're blamed
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  Speaker 4: and men are not held accountable. right men are expected
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  Speaker 4: to behave this way to assault and we have many
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  Speaker 4: many more men who are complicit by doing nothing even
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  Speaker 4: though they are part of a whole host of people
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  Speaker 4: who abuse on the daily right right And so this
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  Speaker 4: definition of sexual shame shows that it can start when
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  Speaker 4: we're really little. Like, I don't know, we find our
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  Speaker 4: genitals at 11 months old, right? I always say that's
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  Speaker 4: like a great day because guess what you have on
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  Speaker 4: your body? A part of your body that has a
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  Speaker 4: lot of wonderful nerve endings. But you need somebody outside
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  Speaker 4: of you to say, oh, yeah, like, you know, you're
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  Speaker 4: getting your diaper changed or you're in the tub. Oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: that's your penis. Or, oh yeah, that's your vulva. It's
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  Speaker 4: a wonderful part of your body, just like your eyes
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  Speaker 4: and your nose and your ears. It's wonderful. And then
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  Speaker 4: let me finish drying you off or let me finish
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  Speaker 4: diapering you. And then as they get older and they
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  Speaker 4: remember that part of their body and they're choosing to
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  Speaker 4: touch that part of their body to comfort themselves really,
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  Speaker 4: which is what we know little toddlers do. Then you
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  Speaker 4: begin to give them the social education, just like don't
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  Speaker 4: eat your boogers. You say to them, yep, that's that
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  Speaker 4: wonderful part of your body. But you know what we
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  Speaker 4: do in this family? If we feel like we want
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  Speaker 4: to touch that part, we go into our room or
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  Speaker 4: into the bathroom. We all do that. And I'm inviting
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  Speaker 4: you to do that now too. And you will say
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  Speaker 4: that a million times, at least just like eating the
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  Speaker 4: boogers or whatever they're doing. That's typical for that age.
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  Speaker 4: You're going to say it a bunch until they finally
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  Speaker 4: start doing it, right? Like, good for you. I'm so
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  Speaker 4: proud of you. You remembered to do that. Way to go, right?
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  Speaker 4: But you need to have those kinds of, developmental instructions,
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  Speaker 4: if you will, all the way through life. But instead,
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  Speaker 4: what people get is somebody yelling at them, slapping their
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  Speaker 4: hand away, telling them they're dirty, that's dirty, God won't
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  Speaker 4: love you, blah, blah, blah, over and over and over.
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  Speaker 4: And all the child can do with that information and
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  Speaker 4: that experience, which has scared them, by the way, because
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: they love you so much, is think something must be
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  Speaker 4: fundamentally wrong with me. And that's the visceral feeling down
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  Speaker 4: in your body. Like nobody could possibly love me if
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  Speaker 4: they really knew who I was. So by this time,
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  Speaker 4: this child is six or seven or eight, they're already
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  Speaker 4: beginning to put a mask on to try to be
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  Speaker 4: who they think you want them to be. Not who
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  Speaker 4: they are.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: Right. And this happens in multiple arenas, you know, like
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  Speaker 4: they're playing dress up and they're not dressing the way
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: a parent wants them to dress up. Right. And, Like,
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  Speaker 4: I'm not okay. I am not enough, right? It's a deep, deep, pervasive,
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  Speaker 4: very shaping emotion.
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  Speaker 2: So that brings me to the follow-up question. How early
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  Speaker 2: can shame around our bodies, affection, sexuality, and intimacy begin
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  Speaker 2: to take root?
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  Speaker 4: As early as pre-verbal. as 11 months, they're not starting
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: to put language together. So what that means is as
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: far as your brain goes is kiddos get born in
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  Speaker 4: their right brain. Their senses are taking in all the
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: information and they're hearing words, but they're not going to
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: start formulating and putting language together until somewhere between a
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: year and two years. So by a year, they're starting
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  Speaker 4: to understand language. And by two, they're usually starting to
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: speak some words and that's just generally speaking, but that's
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: sort of the umbrella. So we know that kids are
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: taking in these experiences and they're rooting themselves, but they're
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: not going to take shape. Like the bad feeling is there,
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: but understanding that bad feeling doesn't take shape until down
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  Speaker 4: the road somewhere. But by that point, they've already assumed
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  Speaker 4: it's them. Right.
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  Speaker 2: You know?
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  Speaker 4: And until we recognize that, whoa, I think I got
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  Speaker 4: a lot of that. I got to start healing that
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  Speaker 4: because I want to live into my belovedness. I want
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: to live into the miracle of this life that I'm
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  Speaker 4: getting to live. And guess what? Nobody like you has
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  Speaker 4: ever been born. So the best thing you can do
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  Speaker 4: for you and the rest of the world is be
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  Speaker 4: most authentically you. Not a mask, not a hybrid for
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  Speaker 4: somebody else, but you. But we've often got a lot
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: of unloading to do in order to get to that
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: heart of that person and then bravely be her or
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  Speaker 4: him or them, you know, and it's work, but it's
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  Speaker 4: such valuable work.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. What is one belief about intimacy, sexuality in our
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: bodies that you believe many adults need permission to reconsider?
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  Speaker 4: That I am worth loving. And I'm brave enough to
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  Speaker 4: choose who to give my love to.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Wow. Wow. Yeah, I don't get speechless often, but wow. Okay.
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  Speaker 2: With that being said, we're going to move into the
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: reality check. One thing about unhealed beliefs is that we
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: rarely stay in one area of our lives. Eventually, we
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: have to show up somewhere else. How does unresolved shame
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  Speaker 2: show up inside adult relationships?
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  Speaker 4: Well, you can just imagine the tentacles. If I have
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  Speaker 4: an idea that I'm not good enough and nobody could
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  Speaker 4: really love the real me, then I'm bringing my pretend self,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: my masked self out into my relationships, right? I'm being
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: who I think you want me to be. But then
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: when you love that, that version of me, I know
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  Speaker 4: you're not really loving me.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: So it impacts how we do attachment, how we feel seen, known, loved,
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  Speaker 4: and accepted, which is what we all want is to
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  Speaker 4: really honestly feel that. But if we fundamentally think you're
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: not going to be able to handle it, I don't
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  Speaker 4: know that I handle it, that I like it.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: Then now it's permeating every attachment. It makes us do this.
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  Speaker 4: So by this, I mean, I'm placing distance between who
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: I am and who I think you are. And that
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  Speaker 4: distance can't get closed because I don't think you can
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  Speaker 4: handle it. I don't know that I can handle who
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  Speaker 4: I am. And so there's a Harvard study that's been
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: going on for, I think, 85 years looking at happiness.
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  Speaker 4: Like what is it that does prolonged happiness in people's lives?
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  Speaker 4: What are the qualities? And really it's one's ability to
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: give and receive love in safe, loving relationships. The fact
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  Speaker 4: that I do feel seen, I feel known, I feel loved,
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  Speaker 4: I feel accepted, you know, by certain people, not everybody,
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  Speaker 4: but enough that it feels like there's a me in
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  Speaker 4: this world functioning authentically. And that me is seen and
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  Speaker 4: loved by certain others that I also see and love.
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  Speaker 4: And that that brings joy to my life. And joy
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  Speaker 4: is at the root, I think, of our happiness is
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  Speaker 4: being able to actually feel joy about living here. I
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  Speaker 4: think of that as abundance, you know, and I have
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  Speaker 4: worked with a lot of people from a Christian background and,
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  Speaker 4: you know, talk about there's an abundance, you're meant for abundance.
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  Speaker 4: Like that's what abundance is. It's first seeing how valuable
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  Speaker 4: you are and then seeing valuable value in other people
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  Speaker 4: And then bringing close to you those people who feel
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: safe enough to bring close and letting them see you
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: and them letting you see them. And now we have
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: a beautiful kind of reciprocity where we can care for
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  Speaker 4: each other, love each other, support each other, be there
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  Speaker 4: in hard times together, right? We've got a really wonderful conduit,
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  Speaker 4: which is the heart of joy of the human experience,
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  Speaker 4: I think.
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  Speaker 2: I agree.
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  Speaker 4: I agree.
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  Speaker 2: I experience joy every day. I think I wake up
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  Speaker 2: with that expectancy because I love God and I know
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  Speaker 2: that God wants the best for me. So I have
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: gratitude every day. And I think with gratitude comes joy.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's where your eyes are focused and your
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  Speaker 4: heart is focused. What are you grateful for? What is
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: beautiful around you? Who are the people? I mean, all
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  Speaker 4: the things that light you up and you can like, wow,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: I can see how loved I am. by all these things. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Let's talk about something that doesn't get discussed very often.
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Difference between intimacy and obligation.
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  Speaker 4: That's a powerful question and it takes me many places.
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  Speaker 4: So obligation is a should. I feel like I should
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: do this. I don't maybe necessarily want to, but I
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: feel like I should. I often will say, use the
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: joking phrase, I don't think we are meant to should
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: on ourselves. Right. It's not authentic. It's not honest. Better
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: to say, oh yeah, I think that would be a
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: good thing to do, but it's not the right thing
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: for today. I'm going to look to do it at
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: this point. Or just to be honest about maybe it
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: is something I need to get done. My higher value
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: is be there for my kids, let's say, or something,
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: my higher value. And so I'm going to do that
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: even though there's a part of me that would like
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: to go off on a hike. I am not gonna
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: do that. So, but we need to be honest with
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: ourselves and honest with others around, is this really a
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: should or is it a higher value I'm responding to? Okay.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: I believe that intimacy is the honest part of me
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  Speaker 4: showing up to the honest part of you. I'm desiring
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: to be seen, known, loved, and accepted. I'm desiring you
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: to be brave enough to show me you so that
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: I can see, know, love, and accept you. And I
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: recognize that that can be kind of scary to do, right?
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: But that is sort of, and I'm sure you've heard
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: this before, that sort of in to me, you see intimacy, right?
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: I am showing up with a kind of honesty and
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: I'm inviting you to do the same. When we interact
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: from that place, that kind of authenticity, there's a truthfulness
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: in that relating that is a beautiful gift, both given
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: and received. Even if it's hard, even if you're hearing
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: someone's truth, And it's hard to hear. It's still strengthening
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: intimacy and strengthening trust, right? To have honesty there. Like,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: thank you for being brave enough to bring that to me.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: It's hard to hear, but I can see where I
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: probably needed to hear that, right? It's an honor. We
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: can move with it. We can grow from it and
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: with it, right? And I believe that intimacy ultimately helps
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: us grow more into the people maybe we were born
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: to be, right? It helps us learn, but it takes
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: a real kind of courage. And it's a courage that
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: I don't know we often spend enough time talking about.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: We're so busy talking about productivity and whatever careers and
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: stuff out there to keep the machine going and not
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: enough about what are the human interactions that strengthen us
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: as people our relationships, our communities, and onward from there.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: And those are skills. Those are other skills. Those are
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: interpersonal relational skills. And of which, you know, sexuality is
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: a big piece of it. And yeah, we haven't had,
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: we haven't ever had comprehensive sex education, which means age
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: appropriate at each age. Never in the US. They have
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: it in Northern European countries. And that's what my heritage is.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: My heritage is Swedish. But here we haven't. But at
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: least we had something until about 1980. People can go
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: to YouTube and type in sex education in the 60s
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: or sex education.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: In the 40s.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: You'll actually get a little movie that they used to
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: show in the classrooms. And you will see how it's
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: more than we have had since 1980, even though it's
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: got all kinds of things that are way too heteronormative,
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: way too so many things. It still is more than
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: we've had since 1980. And so all we've had to
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: educate our public has been media, which is entertainment, which
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: is not what you want. Let me use this analogy.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: We would not teach our children to drive at 15, 14, 15,
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: 16 by showing them fast and furious. And that's all
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: they get.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Right. Never.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Because they would not survive. Right. But we are doing
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: this when it comes to teaching people interpersonal relationship skills.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: We're showing them just what entertainment has to say, both
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: online and movies and other forms of media. And that
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: is not translating well into people's lives. And then the
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: cultural messages of the gender cultural messages that people are
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: getting are also not translating well into intimate relationships because
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: somebody feels in charge. Somebody feels obligated. Somebody feels entitled.
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: Somebody feels like they're bad if they don't. And so
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: people are having trans and this is not as much
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: in our queer communities because they actually didn't have anybody's
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: proscribing what they should do. But in our straight communities,
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: we have a lot of people that are really unhappy because,
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: you know, and I'll just give like typical, it can
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: happen different from this, but where he feels like she
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: doesn't want to be there. Because she doesn't look like
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: she's behind her eyes, like she's not really there. And
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: so he doesn't feel connected or like he's wanted, but
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: he just kind of goes with it. She provides something
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: she doesn't really want to provide because she's not included
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: in the decision-making of what's going to happen. So it doesn't,
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: I always say good sex is sex that is connecting
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: and pleasurable for both people.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: A whole lot of things that can go underneath that.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: But on any given day, are you actually deciding together
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: what actually feels like it would be fun, connecting and pleasurable?
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: It could be just a hug in the kitchen. Right.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: You know, whatever. But no, people are going in. I
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: have to do this and I have to do this.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: And I'm not I'm feeling really dissatisfied with what's happening.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: And I always say, I am so sorry because we
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: set you up for this culturally and the church. I mean,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: we have set you up for this. And it can
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: be so much better. And I believe it's meant to
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: be so much better. And I can help you take
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: this apart and build up something. But which is really
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: what the two books I wrote have been about, like
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: how you help people understand what happened. How did you
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: guys get here? It's not you. Here's how we heal.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Here's how we can make it better. And then how
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: do you not pass that bad, that legacy that wasn't
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: helpful to you? How do you not pass that on?
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: And that's what the second book's about.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Final question in the reality check segment. And I
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: think that I really want to ask you this question.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Okay, go.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: What is something that we've normalized in relationships and sexuality
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: that you believe deserves a deeper conversation?
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: Bad sex. We have normalized, you know, like sex is,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: especially this is really, really inclusive in the heterosexual world. Again, fortunately,
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: our queer brothers and sisters and friends have been co-creating their,
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: what feels good by starting with the question, what do
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: you like? What works for you? It's a very different
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: kind of world over there. And while they can still
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: have their challenges, It's not from thousands of years of
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: proscribed behavior and proscribed hierarchy and power differential. Inside the
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: sort of umbrella of the heterosexual world, we have normalized
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: bad sex. And so let me give you an example
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: of that. How many times have you heard someone say
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: to a young mom who's in a straight marriage, Just
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: think about sex more often. Just think about it throughout
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: the day. Get yourself ready and just, you know, just
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: try to be there. That is such bad advice.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: Like, honey, make yourself be okay with obligatory sexual exchanges.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: When you have people crawling all over your body all
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: day long. No, we are going to say you have
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: people crawling on your body all day long. What to
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: you would feel like deeply loving, safe, and fun that
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: has to do with you being nurtured. It could be
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: come take a bath with me and have a glass
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: of wine after the babies are in bed. Take my
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: feet and rub them so that I can remember that
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: I am alive as a human. I mean, it could
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: be all kinds of things. Trust me, there are thousands
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: of things we can put on this list that might
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: feel good to both people. You're going to go through
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: so many seasons in your life and in your marriage.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: We wouldn't expect ourselves to have the same breakfast every
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: single day for the rest of our lives.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: But we expect ourselves to do a very similar sexual
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: dance all the time. It makes no sense. Food is pleasure.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: It's also nourishment. Touch is pleasure and needs to be nourishment.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: And it needs to be co-created. What kind of banquet
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: do you want? What do you feel like right now?
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: You know, maybe it's just a smoothie. Fine, figure out
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: what a smoothie is. That might be it.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: You're not hungry. Great.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: We don't pathologize not being hungry. We don't pathologize being starving.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: We just try to find a place in the middle
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: for us to meet that can feel good to both
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: of us. So then her safety, sense of safety goes
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: up and his sense of being seen and wanted goes up, right?
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: She feels like, ah, he gets me, right? And he
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: feels like, ah, I make her feel seen. Like I
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: make her feel good, you know? And that's where the
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: juices can start to flow. Again, get rid of the goal.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: If the goal is a behavior or an orgasm or whatever,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: get rid of the goal. make it just, I want
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: you to feel my love, feel connected to me, feel
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: some pleasure. I want you to feel my love, feel
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: connected to me, pleasure. Let's figure out what that is
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: going to look like today or the next half hour
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: or whatever we want. So I think, yeah, it's, Simple, simple, simple.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: We have settled for really bad sex.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's all about the experience. We don't focus more,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: you know, enough on the experience. It's always the end
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: game or let me just get through this. Yeah, it's
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: the goal. Like, I think that we should create experiences
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: that both people can enjoy.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: And isn't that what it was created for? I mean, honestly,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: if we live in, we were given five senses, right?
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: We're the creatures that we know on this planet, right?
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: We get all five of them. We get to be
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: able to work with them in so many different, beautiful, life-giving,
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: potentially life-giving ways. isn't our sexuality given to us to
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: bring more joy to our lives, to bring more pleasure
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: to our lives, to bring more sense of connection, deep,
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: important connection to our lives? Isn't that part of being
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: loved by that which is greater than us? And so
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: when we live into marginal sexual experiences or worse, hurtful
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: sexual experiences, isn't that taking this one gift and like
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: giving it back to our giver and saying, No, thank you.
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: We deserve to stand up and stand for making our
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: touch experiences bring us connection and pleasure. And if we
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: decide to share that with somebody else to bring them
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: connection and pleasure too, but not discounting anyone, we're not
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: going to do that anymore.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: I totally agree and understand. And I can have this
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: conversation with you all day, Dr. Tina. But we're going
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: to shift gears a little bit. We're going to talk
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: about your book, Shameless Parenting. Because I was one of
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: those people that was made to feel shame about kissing
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: a boy. Good girls don't do that. You know, it
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: was always something. But the inquisitive mind, Kiki, did her
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: own explorations.
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: Of course you did.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: And I'm not ashamed of that either. No.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: How do parents unintentionally pass their own shame about body, sexuality,
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: and relationships down to their children?
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very easily they do. And again, because sexual shame
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: is in the body and sometimes we don't understand it
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: in our mind well, we react from a body place.
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: So we think, oh, I've got my stuff figured out now.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: We have a child. Our child finds their genitals in
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: front of their grandmother while they're getting their diaper changed.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: We're like, now the grandmothers who gave us the shame
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: to begin with, even though they loved you dearly, I
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: am sure that was not intentional. I'm not speaking about
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: anything being intentional here.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: But you know, you got yelled at. And so you
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: feel in your gut, in your stomach, right? You feel this,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: I'm going to get yelled at. Like you feel that, right? Like,
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: oh no, that's, that's not good. You know, when people
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: feel that, I always say, put your hand on your
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: heart and say, it's okay, baby. Who loved you when
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: you were little, didn't know how to give you what
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: you needed. Instead, they gave you their shame and their
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: fear and but it's not accurate.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: This isn't about you. So you just notice it, take
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: a deep breath and say, I'm okay. And this little
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: one's okay too. Right. But it starts so early and
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: then it keeps going because we keep doing things right.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: You know, it keeps going and it really builds. And
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: so if we don't want to pass that down, we
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: have to first start recognizing it in ourselves. So I'll
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: say to people about the Shameless Parenting book, if you
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: know you got stuff growing up, like 95% of people
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: in the US got your normal, take yourself through that
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: book first. And that might sound silly, but I honestly
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: want you to get a picture of you. Like it's
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: broken down. The book is broken down birth to two,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: two to four, four to six, six to eight, every
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: two years up to 18. Okay.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: And I say, here's what kids in this timeframe, this
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: is behaviorally what they're trying to accomplish, trying to understand. Body-wise, cognitively, emotionally,
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: this is what's stirring for them. And this is what
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: they need from you. And then I ask questions like,
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: what do you think it'll be like for you when
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: your little kiddo or some little one you know starts
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: to do these things? If you can feel that part
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: of you that goes, just know you got some healing
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: to do too. And so I'll say, go get a
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: picture of you somewhere around two, put it in front
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: of you and then read that section as if you're
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: reading it to her too, or to him too. And
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: then I'm going to recommend at the end of each
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: chapter here, the leading books for kids and the leading
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: books for adults. You're going to go get those books
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: at the library or whatever. And you're going to first
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: read them to the little you, and then you're going
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: to read the adult books. And what you'll be doing
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: with every single chapter is you're going to be letting
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: the shame first be recognized and then be let go.
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: Recognize and let go. And then when you go through
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: that book again, when there's a little one in your life,
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: you're going to be like, oh, yeah, I don't feel it.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: It's strong anymore. It's so much less now. And that
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: happens every single time you're walking with another little one
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: through it. People will say, well, what if I didn't
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: know this and my kiddos are older now? And I'm like, actually,
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of repair that you can do when
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: they're older. You can say, you know what? I just
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: started learning some stuff and I wish I knew it
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: when you were six or eight or 10 or 15
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: or whatever. I just didn't, but I'm learning it now.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: And I'd love to share it with you. If you
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: wouldn't mind indulging me for five minutes, I just want
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: to tell you a little bit about it. I'd show
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: them the book and I'd show them like, these are
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: all the little books I've been reading. And I wish
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: I had no mess to do this with you. I
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: would love it. If you could heal any bad juju
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: that you might've gotten from me by doing this yourself,
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: you know, and it's part of what we do.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Like, right.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: We're all given a basket. It's got some good stuff
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: in it and some stuff in it. Not so good stuff.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: And a part of our adult job is to do
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: our own healing so that we are more like free. Fluid, liberated.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: I love that. So we're going to ask you for
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: an action step. So give the listeners one practical action
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: they can take this week to begin developing a healthier
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: relationship with their body, intimacy, or connection.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: Love that. Well, if you go to my website, which
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: is TinaShermerSellers.com, So T-I-N-A-S-C-H-E-R-M-E-R-S-E-L-L-E-R-S.com. On the homepage, it says Sexual
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: Reclamation Project. Free download. You can click on it. You
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: can download the little project. And what it's going to
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: do is walk you through a bunch of questions to
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: think about what is your legacy around sexuality, gender, all
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: of it. It's just gonna, and you, some people take
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: pen to paper or sit at their computer and they
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: write it out for the first time. And at the
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: very end, I ask questions like, okay, now that you
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: can see the arc of what happened in your lifetime, well,
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: how do you feel about this legacy? Is it the
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: legacy you wanna take forward? If it's not, what do
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: you wanna take forward? And this is really a wonderful
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: first step. So even if all you do this week
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: is download it and read through it, Yay, you are
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: on your way. You are on your way.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I love it. And Dr. Tina's information will be included
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: in the show notes, guys. So don't even worry about it.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: I got you covered. Just look in the description and
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: all of her information will be there. So we're moving
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: into the mic drop. I always like to close by
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: pulling everything back to the person behind the expertise. So
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I'll ask the question and you just answer, okay? Okay.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: What is something about love and intimacy you understand differently
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: today than you did 20 years ago?
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: Okay, 20 years ago. I think one of the things
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: that comes to mind when I think about where I
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: am now and where I was 20 years ago is
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: a fuller appreciation of how intimacy and love is a
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: complex process that is inviting each other to So if
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: it's in a relationship, whether it's with your children or
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: your friends, partners, whatever, when we are being deeply honest
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: with ourselves and with each other, we're going to be
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: in a great relationship. process. And that growing process is
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: going to ask the relationship to grow with it. And
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: that sometimes is delightful and it sometimes is really hard.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: I believe it's always a gift, but it does take
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: some patience and some courage to just stay with it.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: When things are hard in a relationship, unless it's really
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: blatant stuff that you can't, most people can't and shouldn't
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: live through it often at that sort of just hard level,
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: it's an image. Something's being invited in you to grow
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: and something's being invited in your partner to grow. And
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: that actually is how you grow into the art of loving.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: What is one message about sexuality, relationships, Or our bodies,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: you hope the next generation never has to unlearn.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: That you're not good enough. You're not beautiful, spectacular, a miracle,
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: one of a kind. Yeah, that's a big one that
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: a lot of people spend a lot of time undoing.
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: And I wish they could just know beyond a shadow
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: of a doubt.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I love that. Finish this sentence. Shame loses its power when?
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: When it is shared with safe others. Share your shame.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: Find people who can be good hearers and listeners. Tell
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: each other your stories. I talk in the book, Sex, God,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: and the Conservative Church, Erasing Shame from Sexual Intimacy. I
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: talk about the MESS model, the model for erasing sexual shame.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: And the first one is frame. Get yourself a scaffolding
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: of sex education. The next one is name. Frame, name,
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: claim a name. Name is tell your story. Tell your
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: story to a safe other because you're going to find
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: out you're not alone. And shame can't live when it's exposed.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: And then claim your body is good. And when you
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: do that, you aim for a whole new future for yourself.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: I love that, Dr. Tina. I love it. I love it.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: So before we get out of here, go ahead and
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: tell the listeners how they can learn more about your work,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: your books, the resources you offer, you as a doctor, therapist,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: all the things. Go ahead and plug away. All this
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: will be included in the show description, of course.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Well, I am on Instagram at Dr. Tina Shameless.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: So D-R-T-I-N-A Shameless. And anybody's welcome to reach out to me.
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: I have a lot of podcast interviews on there, but
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: also know that you can click up by the bio
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: and there's tons of resources there. It'll also take you
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: to my website and there's many more resources there. Just
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: really wanting to support people. My books, Sex, God, and
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: the Conservative Church, Erasing Shame from Sexual Intimacy. If you
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: were born after 1980 and were raised in the United States,
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: there's probably about a 95% chance that you got a
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: lot of sexual shame, both from parents and people who
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: loved you, but also from our education system because we
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: had abstinence-only education, which unrolled in 1980 and has done
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: an enormous amount of damage in people's lives. And so
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: really being able to understand a little bit more about
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: that history is important. And that's in that book. That
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: book will help you see what's been happening and where
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: it came from, that it wasn't you. You're not alone.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: Here's how you heal. And then here's how you weave
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: in the spirituality that makes sense to you. If you
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: want to weave that in to the way you do
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: connection and pleasure, then I'll give you some ideas. And
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: that's in that book. That book can be found on
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: Amazon and so can Shameless Parenting, everything you need to
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: raise shame-free, confident kids and heal your shame too. If
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: for any reason you are not shopping at Amazon, which
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: I completely support, just take the title of the book
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: and my name to a local bookseller and ask them
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: to order it for you. If anybody out there really
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: wants to do this work, like, oh, I know this
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: is what I need to do. I need to work
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: on my inner shame. sexual shame and you can't afford
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: one or both of the books and you really are
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: committed to doing the work, just DM me, let me
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: know a little bit about what's up. And then I
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: will send you a free promo code to one or
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: both books in the audio version. And you can have
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: that for free. So that's kind of it.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Dr. Tina, thank you so much for kicking it with
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: me today. It has been an absolute pleasure having you here.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: To all the listeners, take power over the things that
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: people have shown or told or made you feel that
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: cause you to gravitate or hold on to the shame.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: You are more than enough.
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: Like Dr.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Tina said, you are radiant.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: You are beautiful.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: You are the person that you are because it's you.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: Okay?
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: It is you. You are one of a kind.
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: You are deserving.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: You are more than deserving for the kind of love
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: and relationship that you are supposed to have. Remember that
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: your mindset controls the way that everything falls into place
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: in your life as well as your love. Those three
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: things are interconnected. Show up for yourself. Keep growing. keep
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: evolving and keep your mindset strong. This has been another
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: episode of Kicking It With Kiki, Life, Love and Mindset.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: I am back with the new episode every Thursday on
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: all major podcast streaming platforms. Make sure that you invite
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: a friend, share, like, subscribe, follow. And if you would
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: like to hear more topics or have guests in mind
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: for the show, go ahead and send us an email
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: at kickingitwithkikimedia at gmail.com. And that's kicking without the G.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Until next time, purple hugs. Later.