Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #131 Overcoming Some of Life's Biggest Obstacles (Featuring John & Amanda Maclean)

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#131 Overcoming Some of Life's Biggest Obstacles (Featuring John & Amanda Maclean) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: We just don't always have our eyes and ears open
0:05
Speaker 1: to those opportunities. I saw that, I mean, on television,
0:08
Speaker 1: so I'm watching it as a wooch athlete. He doesn't finish.
0:10
Speaker 1: I saw that a friend of mine at Swanling was channel.
0:13
Speaker 1: He said, if I can do it, you can do it.
0:14
Speaker 1: That came about so when I found out that no
0:17
Speaker 1: wooch athlete had done the English Channel as well as
0:19
Speaker 1: any iron man, that was an added bonus to be
0:22
Speaker 1: the first, but also again to inspire kids in Wilchest.
0:25
Speaker 2: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a Happy
0:28
Speaker 2: Families podcast. My name is doctor Justin Coulson. In June
0:32
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty eight, John McClean went out for a
0:36
Speaker 2: ride on his bike. That training ride for the Nepean
0:40
Speaker 2: Triathlon would change John's life forever. John was hit by
0:45
Speaker 2: an eight ton truck which left him with multiple breaks
0:49
Speaker 2: to his arms, elvis and back. Amazingly, John survived the
0:55
Speaker 2: accident but was left as a paraplegic. The accident, though,
0:58
Speaker 2: ended up being the aching of John. In nineteen ninety eight,
1:02
Speaker 2: John became the first wheelchair athlete to successfully swim the
1:06
Speaker 2: English Channel.
1:07
Speaker 3: And in two thousand.
1:08
Speaker 2: He represented Australia at the Sydney Paralympics, reaching the final
1:11
Speaker 2: of the fifteen hundred meters wheelchair race. Now it's a
1:14
Speaker 2: bit of a cliche that behind every great man is
1:16
Speaker 2: an even greater woman, but cliches aside. In this case,
1:18
Speaker 2: I think it's absolutely true. So I've invited John Long
1:21
Speaker 2: for the podcast Conversation today along with his wife Amanda,
1:25
Speaker 2: to really get a sense of their story. And I
1:28
Speaker 2: began by asking John what family life looked like for
1:30
Speaker 2: him as a child.
1:32
Speaker 1: My parents immigrated from Scotland. I'm so glad they did
1:36
Speaker 1: because I must fur growing up with the son in
1:39
Speaker 1: Australia is in the winters in Scotland, and they were
1:42
Speaker 1: kind of immigrants who kind of came over with My
1:45
Speaker 1: mother suffered for mental health, so I kind of spent
1:48
Speaker 1: the first five years in a foster home with my
1:50
Speaker 1: brother and sister who were older and unfortunate. Mum took
1:53
Speaker 1: a life when I was about four years of act
1:57
Speaker 1: so for the first five years was in a foster home.
2:00
Speaker 2: So John, while you're in that foster home and your
2:02
Speaker 2: mum's going through her mental illness challenge and ultimately dying
2:05
Speaker 2: by suicide.
2:06
Speaker 3: Where's dad.
2:09
Speaker 1: Dad's trying to make sense of all this. So again
2:11
Speaker 1: he's immigrated. He was told to give the kids up
2:14
Speaker 1: for adoption. That was the language that was which he
2:17
Speaker 1: shared with me. He chose not to do that and
2:20
Speaker 1: will be favor grateful that he wanted to still make
2:25
Speaker 1: a living for his family. So therefore, by having us
2:28
Speaker 1: three kids were very young in foster care, that been
2:31
Speaker 1: allowed him to focus on three jobs, not as one,
2:34
Speaker 1: to generate enough of an income to get on the
2:37
Speaker 1: list of a Housing Commission house for us to leap frog,
2:40
Speaker 1: which we ended up doing. So Dad was doing all
2:44
Speaker 1: that he can to do at a foundation for allowing us
2:46
Speaker 1: to get a house and move forward. So that's what
2:50
Speaker 1: he was doing.
2:50
Speaker 2: Okay, And you grew up in Mount Druid. There's no
2:54
Speaker 2: polite way to say it. It's known as a pretty
2:55
Speaker 2: rough part of Sydney, one of the roughest parts of Sydney.
2:59
Speaker 1: True, how commission kind of fi blue collar people doing
3:03
Speaker 1: their best. So that would have to drive to Sunario Station,
3:07
Speaker 1: get an hour's trip into the city, work there and
3:10
Speaker 1: then come back home again. So you know, he committed
3:13
Speaker 1: so much of his time to provide for us as
3:16
Speaker 1: a family after my birth mother passed away. He was
3:19
Speaker 1: also an entertainer. His love was singing in his passion,
3:24
Speaker 1: so that was one of the ways he generated income.
3:26
Speaker 1: And he was also an advanced driving instructor, so he
3:29
Speaker 1: was working in the city in the marl rooms. This
3:31
Speaker 1: three jobs and you're right. Mount Jordan is a tough
3:34
Speaker 1: place to go up. But if you know no different,
3:37
Speaker 1: you do no different.
3:38
Speaker 3: John.
3:39
Speaker 2: You get into your teenage years, you start to be
3:42
Speaker 2: recognized as a sportsperson and you start looking pretty seriously
3:47
Speaker 2: at a rugby league career.
3:48
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think for as a little boy, Dad kind
3:51
Speaker 1: of introduced my brother and I marks three years older,
3:54
Speaker 1: to sport. He said it's a good way of meeting people,
3:56
Speaker 1: are making friends. He was right, and rugby league was
3:59
Speaker 1: something in our local area that we were both passionate about,
4:01
Speaker 1: as well as little athletics. My gift was kind of running.
4:05
Speaker 1: I used to do okay with that. When Dad would
4:07
Speaker 1: kind of get us in the Penrith uniform back in
4:09
Speaker 1: the day and going in serring on the Penrith Panthers,
4:11
Speaker 1: that was a really big experience for us to have
4:14
Speaker 1: as brothers, and I think that then planned to see.
4:17
Speaker 1: For me as a young boy, imagine what it would
4:20
Speaker 1: be like to run on that paddock and get paid
4:22
Speaker 1: to be a professional athlete. So that's where my kind
4:24
Speaker 1: of dreams started to unfold around wanted to chase sport
4:28
Speaker 1: as a living.
4:29
Speaker 2: Okay, now the story takes a fello dramatic turn from here.
4:33
Speaker 2: And you were really interested in triathlon, probably a little
4:35
Speaker 2: bit of a little bit ahead of your time, but
4:37
Speaker 2: you were training for a triathlon, the Nepean Triathlon in
4:42
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight. Your world changed forever on that day.
4:47
Speaker 2: What happened that day? How much do you remember about it?
4:49
Speaker 2: And what's happened since?
4:52
Speaker 1: So I was going to race against my buddy at
4:55
Speaker 1: the time, who we got introduced to the sport in
4:58
Speaker 1: eighty six. So this is going to competitive friendship. I
5:01
Speaker 1: won the first race, he won the second, and therefore
5:04
Speaker 1: not a OUTI eight was going to be the decider
5:06
Speaker 1: on who between us was the better athlete. That was
5:08
Speaker 1: our focus at the time. So in preparation for that training,
5:11
Speaker 1: I was out on my bicycle. I got hit by
5:13
Speaker 1: a truck, broke my back and damaged my spinal cord
5:17
Speaker 1: as well as other bones. Spent four months in a
5:20
Speaker 1: spinal unit, and that dramatically changed my world because I
5:24
Speaker 1: think that was my first real experience about suffering from
5:30
Speaker 1: the depression of not or knowing that I wouldn't fulfill
5:34
Speaker 1: the dreams that I had at that start. Losing my
5:36
Speaker 1: legs was a really difficult thing because that was my
5:39
Speaker 1: love of running and competing.
5:41
Speaker 2: Can you describe the not Not that we want to
5:43
Speaker 2: dwell on the drama and kind of get excited about
5:48
Speaker 2: the crash, but I think that it's important in setting
5:50
Speaker 2: the context for people to understand just how serious this
5:54
Speaker 2: incident was.
5:55
Speaker 1: So the speed of it at the time was one
5:56
Speaker 1: hundred and ten, so that's on the police report. That
5:59
Speaker 1: was the speed that the truck was going. The offending truck,
6:03
Speaker 1: which is the truck that hit me, was about to
6:04
Speaker 1: overtake another truck. Looked in the side view mirror. The
6:08
Speaker 1: truck then VIGs the left, collided with me, and the
6:12
Speaker 1: truck continued to go forward. A motorbike rider saw the
6:14
Speaker 1: accident from behind and wave the driver down about a
6:17
Speaker 1: kilometer down the freeway and bipping his horn just to
6:20
Speaker 1: notify him that he'd been involved in an accident damaged
6:24
Speaker 1: to me, and again no recollection from being hit from
6:26
Speaker 1: behind it, and I think that's a kind of blessing.
6:30
Speaker 1: There is no reoccurring nightmares of that picture because I
6:35
Speaker 1: don't have a picture of that damaged to me. I
6:38
Speaker 1: broke my back in three pelvising four right side, I
6:42
Speaker 1: broken twice, right side, broken ribs, punched lungs. I think
6:47
Speaker 1: anything else really doesn't matter, because if you're able to
6:50
Speaker 1: survive something like that without brain damage, that's a miracle
6:54
Speaker 1: in some people's eyes. And then if you're able to live,
7:00
Speaker 1: let's call it living number one. Let's call not having
7:02
Speaker 1: brain damage number two, and then you know what does
7:04
Speaker 1: that then look like? So as an incomplete paraplegic, I
7:09
Speaker 1: vividly remember waking up after coming out of the coma
7:12
Speaker 1: and being in a world of pain. My parents would
7:16
Speaker 1: notified that I've been involved in accident, initially saying that
7:19
Speaker 1: your son's broken his prows. So mom and Dad make
7:21
Speaker 1: their way to Westmead Hospital, and then Dad was told
7:24
Speaker 1: late at that night via the surgeon he didn't expect
7:27
Speaker 1: me to live due to the extent of the injuries.
7:29
Speaker 1: So that's tough for any parent. So fortunately I was
7:31
Speaker 1: able to pull through. I think a couple of days
7:34
Speaker 1: after that was then transferred via a helicopter's this four
7:36
Speaker 1: days in Westmeat to a spinal unit, and therefore to
7:40
Speaker 1: start to go through ICU and move through that process.
7:43
Speaker 1: When I first saw myself in the mirror in terms
7:45
Speaker 1: of lacerations and how quickly our body becomes emitiator or
7:50
Speaker 1: waste the way, there's always this internal dialogue around I
7:53
Speaker 1: don't like what I'm seeing up at anybody else, and
7:56
Speaker 1: trying what am I going to do with my life?
7:58
Speaker 1: My job? Wanted to be a fireman, can't I mean,
8:00
Speaker 1: all these kind of reoccurring dark thoughts because there's nothing
8:04
Speaker 1: that's bright and exciting, and there's no sunshine at all.
8:07
Speaker 1: It all it's all dark clouds. So and then over
8:10
Speaker 1: time you start to come to terms of the fact
8:12
Speaker 1: how I'm really lucky I'm alive. And then when I
8:14
Speaker 1: was moving into the general reward, which was eight weeks later,
8:17
Speaker 1: after the bones had kind of knitted back together again,
8:20
Speaker 1: I realized that there are a lot more people were
8:22
Speaker 1: soft than myself, and therefore, having encouraging words from my father,
8:25
Speaker 1: from my brother, from my doctor, started to create shades
8:29
Speaker 1: of light to give me hope moving forward.
8:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I hear that, John, and I just think
8:34
Speaker 2: it's extraordinary. Your entire life is blown up, and you've
8:37
Speaker 2: gone through this darkness for eight weeks, and then you
8:40
Speaker 2: in the general ward think, actually, my bones are healing
8:43
Speaker 2: and you're having this shift already, and you're pointing to
8:47
Speaker 2: the support from your brother and from your dad, from
8:50
Speaker 2: your family. Why is it, John, that you think that
8:52
Speaker 2: you were able to start to make these shifts? And
8:56
Speaker 2: I guess in some ways build hope where so many
9:00
Speaker 2: other people struggle with that.
9:02
Speaker 1: Well, I think all of us wear masks in life.
9:05
Speaker 1: I have no doubt about that, and how you present.
9:07
Speaker 1: You might present different to your wife than you would
9:10
Speaker 1: to a corporate audience, for example, or your best friend
9:13
Speaker 1: or your brother. I mean, there's all different masks that
9:17
Speaker 1: that we went back to the spiral unit. Everything that
9:19
Speaker 1: you think you have is stripped away very quickly. So
9:22
Speaker 1: it's the essence of who you are is kind of
9:25
Speaker 1: because the shell of the body is broken. Just picture
9:28
Speaker 1: at your absolute warrist moment, and therefore that's then perspective
9:32
Speaker 1: on what truly does matter. And you know, I remember
9:36
Speaker 1: praying for such a long time that I could do
9:39
Speaker 1: something with my life and hopefully I could inspire kids
9:41
Speaker 1: in wheelchairs. And so that's where all that started for me,
9:44
Speaker 1: when everything else was ripped away. So someone has a
9:48
Speaker 1: complete spinal cord lesion, either in their neck or their back,
9:51
Speaker 1: that the brain is credcted to the spinal cord, which
9:54
Speaker 1: is the central nervous system. Basically it serves two functions
9:57
Speaker 1: all the way down to move and on the way
9:59
Speaker 1: up to FI or motor or sensory. So if the
10:02
Speaker 1: spinal cord's being damaged, those messages are then interrupted. So
10:05
Speaker 1: someone who's complete has no movement or no feeling beyond
10:08
Speaker 1: where they've had their level of lesion damage to the
10:11
Speaker 1: spinal cord. Someone like me, which most people are, as
10:15
Speaker 1: I understand, are incomplete, so there are still some sparing
10:19
Speaker 1: of the pathways, so that person would still have some
10:22
Speaker 1: movement and some feeling. And because the spinal cord is
10:25
Speaker 1: so complex, every single person is different, every single person.
10:29
Speaker 1: And I think when I looked at my dad, him saying,
10:31
Speaker 1: so I will give you my legs if I could,
10:34
Speaker 1: which you know my dad has passed away, and you know,
10:37
Speaker 1: those just beautiful words. At the time that a son
10:40
Speaker 1: that was broken needed to hear my brother saying, John,
10:43
Speaker 1: this is going to be a mouth on a post
10:45
Speaker 1: to a sprint. Okay. I couldn't understand that because I
10:48
Speaker 1: used to run around, meaning you know, it's got to
10:50
Speaker 1: take a while. My doctor, family doctor came into visible
10:54
Speaker 1: as well to say, John, don't worry. You will be bigger, stronger,
10:58
Speaker 1: and faster, and then left the room. So what did
11:00
Speaker 1: he do? He provided a seed of hope. Yeah, for
11:03
Speaker 1: someone who had nothing at the top. So that was
11:06
Speaker 1: the perspective to go, Okay, these are the cards that
11:09
Speaker 1: have been dope to me. How do I then start
11:12
Speaker 1: to build a wall of confidence to move forward in life.
11:16
Speaker 2: So, John, you're laying in the hospital bed, You've been
11:19
Speaker 2: through intensive care, you're now in the spinal unit, then
11:22
Speaker 2: you end.
11:22
Speaker 3: Up in a general ward.
11:23
Speaker 2: How long did you stay in hospital after crash?
11:26
Speaker 1: I was there for four months, which is back then
11:29
Speaker 1: that was relatively quick. A part of his complete would
11:33
Speaker 1: be there for at that stage about six months. A
11:35
Speaker 1: quadriplegic would be there for twelve months. Okay, so it's
11:38
Speaker 1: a long long time.
11:40
Speaker 2: You get to a point somewhere around maybe the twelve
11:42
Speaker 2: month mark, where you've been doing your best to build
11:45
Speaker 2: up your muscles.
11:46
Speaker 3: You've been doing your best to build up your strength.
11:47
Speaker 2: You've been hobbling around on crutches, trying to get your
11:50
Speaker 2: legs to work, and it's just not happening. You kind
11:55
Speaker 2: of get to this point where you look at your
11:56
Speaker 2: dad and say, Dad, I'm going to be in a wheelchair.
12:00
Speaker 2: This whole walking thing, I don't think I can do it.
12:03
Speaker 2: And he says something to you that day that remains
12:07
Speaker 2: a living motto for you right now and inspires me.
12:10
Speaker 2: And I love to share your story when I'm talking
12:12
Speaker 2: about resilience with people. Can you describe the scenario leading
12:16
Speaker 2: up to what he said to you and then what
12:18
Speaker 2: he said.
12:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, you remember my doctor had said to me, doctor
12:22
Speaker 1: Gabriel was his name is fast as well when he
12:24
Speaker 1: said bigger, stronger, faster. I took that literally. But I'm
12:27
Speaker 1: going to get back and I'm going to run and
12:29
Speaker 1: I'm going to do all the things that I used
12:32
Speaker 1: to do. That was the mindset at the time. So
12:36
Speaker 1: two months after the accident, when I was in the
12:37
Speaker 1: bedroom with my dad, you know, I said to it
12:39
Speaker 1: that I'm trying really hard. And when you talk about
12:42
Speaker 1: people giving one hundred percent and most of us are
12:45
Speaker 1: nowhere near that near that line called out a line.
12:49
Speaker 1: I'm going to say that Usain Bald got really close
12:51
Speaker 1: to his. Maybe he hit his line so as a
12:54
Speaker 1: reference point, so I guess I'd hit my line as well.
12:57
Speaker 1: And I said to that, I'm trying really hard. And
12:59
Speaker 1: Dad then and said he said something, you got hit
13:01
Speaker 1: by a truck. Look out by you come? And that's
13:04
Speaker 1: when the light bulb went off for me, knowing that
13:07
Speaker 1: I was not going to get any better. And that's
13:09
Speaker 1: when he posted the beautiful question, son, how far can
13:12
Speaker 1: you go? Which then allowed me to go, okay, embrace
13:16
Speaker 1: the wheelchair rather than hate the wheelchair. Instead of smashing
13:20
Speaker 1: myself or punishing myself hobbling around the crutches all the time,
13:23
Speaker 1: which took a lot of energy to I then embraced
13:26
Speaker 1: the wheelchair and I was like, okay, what can I
13:28
Speaker 1: do as a wheelchair athlete? And that started to open
13:31
Speaker 1: the doors in lots of different ways. So I'm very
13:34
Speaker 1: grateful that Dad asked that question.
13:35
Speaker 3: I love the question. Look how fa you've come? Now,
13:38
Speaker 3: how far can you go?
13:38
Speaker 2: I can just I can hear parents resonating with that
13:40
Speaker 2: all around the country and around the world going. I'm
13:43
Speaker 2: going to try that next time my child refuses to
13:45
Speaker 2: play the piano or won't do their homework.
13:48
Speaker 3: But look how far you've come. How far can you go? John?
13:51
Speaker 2: You eventually over the next few years, I think it
13:54
Speaker 2: was nineteen ninety three, you trained yourself up and became
13:57
Speaker 2: Australia's first paraplegic triathlete and went back to the Nepean
14:02
Speaker 2: triathlon so that you could.
14:06
Speaker 1: A hand cycle was imported from the US. One of
14:09
Speaker 1: my friends is a fellow para which an athlete had
14:13
Speaker 1: and he said, I don't have a goal, so you
14:14
Speaker 1: actually like, of course, I don't want to have a god.
14:17
Speaker 1: And that's what I went. Okay, now I've got a bike.
14:19
Speaker 1: I could do a triforn again. So that's how that
14:21
Speaker 1: came to life and the right the bike has got
14:23
Speaker 1: a freedom rid made in the US mate of steel.
14:26
Speaker 1: But it was a starting point. It was a wonderful moment.
14:29
Speaker 1: My friend who I played football with, John Young, he
14:32
Speaker 1: came to visit me hospital once a week with his
14:33
Speaker 1: wife for four months. So we talk about friendship and family.
14:38
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a big ask of your non family.
14:40
Speaker 1: So that was something that we did together, he got
14:43
Speaker 1: me into the water, out of the water, and it
14:46
Speaker 1: was wonderful to cross that finish line. And that was
14:48
Speaker 1: the mountain at the time, which then led on to
14:52
Speaker 1: you know, the whole one. I man watching that on television,
14:54
Speaker 1: which led on to the English channel, which led on
14:57
Speaker 1: too many.
14:57
Speaker 2: Other things, okay, which he says with the dismissive his hand, Amanda,
15:03
Speaker 2: And in so doing, you became one of the world's
15:06
Speaker 2: first Hawaii iman triathlete in a wheelchair. In the last
15:13
Speaker 2: one that you competed in, you actually got in. You
15:17
Speaker 2: cross the finish line ahead of the time for able
15:20
Speaker 2: bodied athletes, and you also swam the English channel, which
15:23
Speaker 2: took you the best part of thirteen hours.
15:25
Speaker 1: I saw a Whilich athlete participate and he didn't finish.
15:29
Speaker 1: Like when offen tide of mi Head. Maybe I could
15:30
Speaker 1: be the first to do so. And it took three attempts.
15:34
Speaker 1: The first attempt I missed the bike cut off by
15:36
Speaker 1: forty minutes. Got finished in fourteen fifty two, went back
15:39
Speaker 1: the next year. I got a flat mister cut off
15:41
Speaker 1: by fifteen minutes. This is the bike time. Finished in
15:44
Speaker 1: fourteen thirty nine, went back the next year. There's now
15:47
Speaker 1: an official category. So I was very happy to cross
15:50
Speaker 1: the line and be and win the category and to
15:53
Speaker 1: be you know, to be acknowledged in the in the
15:56
Speaker 1: world of trithlon and get.
15:58
Speaker 3: To put that in perspective for people who are not
16:00
Speaker 3: familiar with it.
16:00
Speaker 2: We're talking about a three point eight k swim, We're
16:03
Speaker 2: talking about a one hundred and eighty k by ride
16:05
Speaker 2: and then a marathon and you're doing all of that
16:08
Speaker 2: with your arms because your legs aren't working.
16:10
Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's fourteen.
16:13
Speaker 2: Hours or thirteen hours or twelve hours of non stop
16:16
Speaker 2: punishment on your upper body so that you can complete
16:19
Speaker 2: this triathleon. This is no small feet.
16:21
Speaker 4: No it's not.
16:21
Speaker 1: But I think again, as I used to watch that
16:24
Speaker 1: as a kid and was just in alle of the
16:26
Speaker 1: athletes who were able to push themselves to do that.
16:29
Speaker 1: I mean, weirdly, you know, I found myself many years
16:32
Speaker 1: later lining up and being a part of it. So, yes,
16:36
Speaker 1: it's a tough day in the office, but remember that
16:39
Speaker 1: little boy within me that dreamed about being an athlete.
16:41
Speaker 1: The door closed when I had my accident in terms
16:43
Speaker 1: of running, but it also opened up in a different
16:45
Speaker 1: way in terms of being a wheelchair athlete, so I
16:49
Speaker 1: started to live the dream in a different way than
16:51
Speaker 1: I thought it was a little boy.
16:52
Speaker 2: You go on to swing the English Channel in about
16:54
Speaker 2: thirteen hours. How far across is the channel?
16:57
Speaker 1: The direct line is twenty one and a half miles,
16:59
Speaker 1: which I think quits to near thirty kilometers, but that's
17:03
Speaker 1: rare that that happens, given the courage and the tides
17:05
Speaker 1: and everything else that goes along. So I was very
17:08
Speaker 1: happy to get to the other side. That was another
17:10
Speaker 1: huge challenge and my thing justin I know we're talking
17:14
Speaker 1: about family, but mopis is always to be seen as equal,
17:18
Speaker 1: not less than equal. So we've briefly spoke about language.
17:22
Speaker 1: And after my accident, I was classified as a paraplegic
17:26
Speaker 1: who then has a disability, and a disability implies that
17:31
Speaker 1: one is less than one another, so to dis someone
17:34
Speaker 1: is not to encourage. So I was found that if
17:36
Speaker 1: I can go on and chase some really big sporting
17:38
Speaker 1: dreams and hopefully in time had a foundation for kids
17:41
Speaker 1: in more chairs, to give them a platform to see
17:44
Speaker 1: themselves as who they are, not under an umbrella or
17:48
Speaker 1: a category that says they're less than others. So that's
17:51
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I pushed myself so hard
17:53
Speaker 1: doing Iman's and challenge and stuff, to see myself as
17:56
Speaker 1: equal and then have that opportunity for others to do
17:59
Speaker 1: the same.
18:00
Speaker 5: I think it's ironic that I've always said that John
18:03
Speaker 5: was then still striving to be seen as equal, and
18:07
Speaker 5: yet he had.
18:08
Speaker 4: So far surpassed most of us in equality. He had gone,
18:15
Speaker 4: you know, his achievements at that stage, being the first
18:18
Speaker 4: wheelchair athlete to.
18:19
Speaker 5: Complete the Hawaiian I Man and then to swim the
18:21
Speaker 5: English Channel. You know, the persistence and determination he was
18:26
Speaker 5: so far and above equal, and yet he still saw
18:30
Speaker 5: himself and the need to prove himself as equal, Which
18:33
Speaker 5: is an ironic kind of thing when I.
18:35
Speaker 4: Look at it.
18:35
Speaker 2: It is no matter at what point do you come
18:38
Speaker 2: into the picture? Because John's still single at this point, right,
18:41
Speaker 2: he hasn't met you, he's not married to you. When
18:44
Speaker 2: do you come into the picture. He swum the channel,
18:47
Speaker 2: he's done the triathlons, he wins medals at the Paralympics.
18:51
Speaker 4: We met in.
18:52
Speaker 5: Two thousand and four, actually, when John was writing his
18:55
Speaker 5: first book and I was working for the publishing company
18:58
Speaker 5: that published the book. We met then and he was
19:03
Speaker 5: actually training for an event called Ultraman, which is basically
19:08
Speaker 5: three iron man's rolled into one, which he was training
19:13
Speaker 5: for as a wheelchair athlete, which seems even more crazy
19:17
Speaker 5: to the average human. We went through the publishing process
19:20
Speaker 5: at that point very as much as you know.
19:23
Speaker 4: An author, and I was head of sales and marketing.
19:25
Speaker 5: So then we were friends for about sort of three
19:29
Speaker 5: years through that process, and our relationship changed and we
19:33
Speaker 5: really came together as a couple about a year out
19:36
Speaker 5: from the Beijing Paralympics for adaptive rowing that John was
19:41
Speaker 5: training for.
19:41
Speaker 2: And then John goes to win medals at that Olympics
19:44
Speaker 2: with his rowing partner, and the two of you become
19:48
Speaker 2: a couple.
19:48
Speaker 3: The two of you get married, start a family eventually.
19:51
Speaker 2: And I'm just listening to this story about this guy
19:53
Speaker 2: who's been hit by a truck, become a paraplegic, and
19:55
Speaker 2: then who goes and does things that most able bodied athletes.
19:59
Speaker 3: Don't do it.
20:00
Speaker 2: I mean, John, am I right in remembering you were
20:02
Speaker 2: the first athlete period to both complete an iron Man
20:06
Speaker 2: at Hawaiian iron Man and swim the channel.
20:08
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
20:09
Speaker 1: I like any early days. I liked the idea of
20:11
Speaker 1: being the first, so with the iron Man, and I
20:15
Speaker 1: think I just digressing very briefly, but I think that
20:18
Speaker 1: opportunities present themselves to all of us all the time.
20:21
Speaker 1: We don't always have our eyes and ears up into
20:23
Speaker 1: those opportunities. Example that I saw the Iman on television,
20:27
Speaker 1: so I'm watching it as a wooch athlete. He doesn't finish.
20:30
Speaker 1: I saw that a friend of mine that's one the
20:32
Speaker 1: English Channel. He said, if I can do it, you
20:33
Speaker 1: can do it. That's how it came about. And given
20:36
Speaker 1: though I was fortunate enough to be sponsored by Nike
20:38
Speaker 1: and Gatorade and these wonderful companies which I clearly would
20:42
Speaker 1: never have been sponsored with if I was running around
20:44
Speaker 1: playing football. So I was always looking for something and
20:46
Speaker 1: they were encouraging me to do so. So when I
20:49
Speaker 1: found out that no Wich athlete had done the English
20:52
Speaker 1: Channel as well as any iron Man, that was an
20:54
Speaker 1: added bonus to be the first, but also again to
20:57
Speaker 1: inspire kids in WU chairs.
20:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's about this fear of being visible and
21:01
Speaker 2: being represent literally representing so that people can see it
21:06
Speaker 2: and believe it. And somebody did that for you, and
21:08
Speaker 2: then you were able to do that for even more people.
21:09
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to come back to you for
21:11
Speaker 2: a minute, and John, honestly, he sounds like Superman.
21:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and that's that's what I was going to ask.
21:20
Speaker 2: I mean, you've made a commitment here, You've met this
21:23
Speaker 2: guy and decided that he is all that, but you
21:27
Speaker 2: didn't know how it was all going to work out.
21:28
Speaker 2: So for you as an able bodied woman marrying a
21:32
Speaker 2: man who for want of a better term, and I
21:36
Speaker 2: recognize wheel chair, a man who's.
21:39
Speaker 3: In a wheelchair.
21:40
Speaker 2: He's clearly, yeah, clearly arguing that there's no such thing
21:43
Speaker 2: as a disability. But here's this guy who's in a wheelchair.
21:47
Speaker 2: What concerns and fears did you have as this relationship
21:50
Speaker 2: started a bloom and blossom and move in a really
21:52
Speaker 2: strong direction. And what about your family? What were they
21:54
Speaker 2: saying about marrying someone who couldn't walk?
21:58
Speaker 4: Do you know?
21:59
Speaker 5: I get asked that question quite often, and it's a
22:02
Speaker 5: really strange thing because there weren't any I mean, I
22:06
Speaker 5: think if you asked anyone who is married to or
22:09
Speaker 5: in a relationship with, or you know whose partner has
22:14
Speaker 5: any form of special need or.
22:16
Speaker 4: You know, whether they're in a wheelchair or they're hearing
22:18
Speaker 4: impaired or you know, missing their fingers.
22:22
Speaker 5: I don't know, you kind of fall in love with
22:25
Speaker 5: a person, not a situation.
22:29
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying that it's for all people, because I'm.
22:31
Speaker 5: Sure you know that there are some people that would
22:34
Speaker 5: not have gone any further with a blossom and kind
22:38
Speaker 5: of friendship and relationship because John was in a wheelchair.
22:41
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm you know, but for me, it didn't really,
22:43
Speaker 5: But then there are just other people.
22:45
Speaker 4: I think that it doesn't. It just doesn't. It kind
22:49
Speaker 4: of doesn't feature you understand.
22:50
Speaker 5: The limitations around it and that you you know, you're
22:53
Speaker 5: not going to be going to the beach on the
22:54
Speaker 5: weekend at the same time. You it's very much John,
22:59
Speaker 5: you know, he walks with yours. There wasn't much that
23:02
Speaker 5: he didn't do it. You know, John used to put
23:04
Speaker 5: out the rubbish on in as wheel chairman. He used
23:06
Speaker 5: to take fifteen or twenty minutes, but you know, I
23:10
Speaker 5: just used to let him go on and do it
23:13
Speaker 5: because I don't know he was capable of doing it.
23:16
Speaker 5: It's not you know, I mean, John's very capable and
23:18
Speaker 5: I think and always has been, I mean completely independent, completely,
23:22
Speaker 5: So I think initially.
23:24
Speaker 4: Maybe my family from probably in particular my father.
23:28
Speaker 5: The concern was, and you know, it's like everybody, the
23:31
Speaker 5: concern is are you having sex? And are you a
23:34
Speaker 5: care or a girlfriend?
23:36
Speaker 4: You know, at what level of care? I mean, that's
23:39
Speaker 4: anyone who looks looks at you, you know.
23:41
Speaker 5: So I realized that what's going on in their head is,
23:44
Speaker 5: you know, what goes on behind closed doors.
23:46
Speaker 4: And I guess that was, you know, a fair enough.
23:51
Speaker 5: Concern maybe for my family, but it really, honestly, it
23:54
Speaker 5: really didn't come up that much. They knew John's story,
23:57
Speaker 5: so they knew, and they knew it because I'd been
24:00
Speaker 5: working with John, so they kind of knew that he
24:03
Speaker 5: was a reasonably extraordinary independent person.
24:06
Speaker 4: Anyway, I love.
24:08
Speaker 3: That phrase, he was reasonably extraordinary. Yeah.
24:12
Speaker 5: So I guess there wasn't you know, you know, genuinely,
24:16
Speaker 5: for me, it wasn't a particular consideration. I mean, I
24:20
Speaker 5: did know him beforehand, so I guess I knew to
24:23
Speaker 5: an extent how he lived day to day and how
24:27
Speaker 5: he moved around, and it was more important to me.
24:30
Speaker 5: I think at that stage, when the relationship started to change,
24:32
Speaker 5: it was about our connection, our values, and where we
24:37
Speaker 5: were heading as a couple.
24:38
Speaker 4: Not what not, not whether we could go to the
24:41
Speaker 4: beach or not, you.
24:42
Speaker 3: Know, in the most part, and thank you for sharing that.
24:45
Speaker 2: I think that parents around the country right now are
24:47
Speaker 2: thinking to themselves, Okay, so we've got John McLean, who
24:49
Speaker 2: can put the rubbish out in a wheelchair.
24:51
Speaker 3: Come on, kids, you know, lift your game.
24:53
Speaker 1: You can do this struggling getting our son.
24:56
Speaker 2: So yeah, well I want to talk about your son
24:59
Speaker 2: because you've had a son come along.
25:00
Speaker 3: Jack.
25:02
Speaker 2: He's ten years old now at the time that we're
25:04
Speaker 2: having this conversation, and he has been privy to some
25:09
Speaker 2: pretty extraordinary events. We've really only told I think the
25:14
Speaker 2: can I say this without diminishing what you've done. We've
25:16
Speaker 2: told the easy part of the story so far, because
25:19
Speaker 2: for people who are not familiar with John and Amanda's story,
25:21
Speaker 2: what happens after they're married and after the Beijing Olympics
25:25
Speaker 2: and these medals at the Olympics is that John gets
25:28
Speaker 2: it in his head and this is I guess where
25:30
Speaker 2: I really want you guys to fill in the gaps.
25:33
Speaker 2: But John gets it in his head that he's going
25:35
Speaker 2: to walk again. He says, I've heard of this thing
25:37
Speaker 2: called trema therapy and I've got these people around me
25:39
Speaker 2: who are saying that I've only got a partial paralysis,
25:41
Speaker 2: it's not a complete paralysis. And therefore I reckon with
25:44
Speaker 2: the right people and with the right tools, and with
25:46
Speaker 2: the right opportunities, and with the right sponsors and the
25:48
Speaker 2: right money and that and the other, I reckon I
25:51
Speaker 2: can walk again.
25:52
Speaker 4: The interesting thing for me from the day I met John. So,
25:56
Speaker 4: I've known John.
25:57
Speaker 5: For you up fourteen years or so, but he has
26:03
Speaker 5: always told me he's going to walk again.
26:06
Speaker 4: Always.
26:07
Speaker 5: It was only ever a matter of time or technology
26:10
Speaker 5: or the world changing or some sort of scientific breakthrough.
26:14
Speaker 5: As far as John was concerned, he was always going
26:16
Speaker 5: to walk again. It's just a natural innate. John lives
26:20
Speaker 5: on the sunny side. He you know, projects a focus
26:24
Speaker 5: and a direction that is you know, is positive.
26:28
Speaker 4: And moving forward.
26:29
Speaker 5: And you know, in his mind he creates you know,
26:33
Speaker 5: you've always been like that. That's how I live with.
26:36
Speaker 5: So he's always said he's going to walk again. And
26:39
Speaker 5: when this opportunity came up, it kind of did it.
26:44
Speaker 5: And I mean, you know, I think he was like,
26:46
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, you can explain how it happened.
26:49
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm shocked and He's like, you know.
26:51
Speaker 2: See, so what's this opportunity that shocked you? And John
26:56
Speaker 2: said that, of course.
26:58
Speaker 1: So this is I mean maybe getting up to a
27:01
Speaker 1: little bit off topic and I'd be very grief. So
27:04
Speaker 1: I kind of visualized this and dreamed about this, and
27:07
Speaker 1: then it unfolded. So a dear friend had gone up
27:11
Speaker 1: to see Ken Webb. This is the guy who come
27:13
Speaker 1: up with the tremotherapy, and we're just happened to be
27:15
Speaker 1: in Musa at the same time. So we had dinner
27:18
Speaker 1: and he said, I'm gonna go and see this guy,
27:20
Speaker 1: and I said, okay, let's catch up, you know, before
27:22
Speaker 1: we go back, and so he said, I went up
27:24
Speaker 1: there linking. I came back sprinting. So we go up
27:28
Speaker 1: there because he said, you know, you should check it out.
27:29
Speaker 1: It might help your shoulder, which I had saw shoulder
27:31
Speaker 1: from all the rotation over the years. And we kind
27:34
Speaker 1: of explored the piece about being present around. Let's not
27:40
Speaker 1: talk about your history, let's talk about what you're capable
27:42
Speaker 1: of and see what that looks like. And then through
27:44
Speaker 1: a series of questions and trying and using equipment that
27:49
Speaker 1: was new and going through a completely different therapy again
27:54
Speaker 1: kind of unlocked it. I always had the potential, but
27:57
Speaker 1: the language that I was using for such a long
27:59
Speaker 1: time was, you know, my name is John McLain. I
28:01
Speaker 1: made a wheelchair athlete. So therefore I stayed in that bubble.
28:04
Speaker 1: And I think we're all in our own bubbles and
28:07
Speaker 1: kind of can help burst that bubble to say, you know,
28:10
Speaker 1: do you want to be John McClain woolch athlete or
28:12
Speaker 1: you know what do you want? I want to walk
28:14
Speaker 1: so and then I've kind of had a throwaway line,
28:16
Speaker 1: wouldn't be amazing to walk on the bench with a
28:17
Speaker 1: man that kind of ah ha? And we just kept
28:20
Speaker 1: on playing with that piece and being present and that
28:24
Speaker 1: came to life. So you can see that the importance
28:27
Speaker 1: of being in the moment really opened up that door
28:30
Speaker 1: to me. A gentleman by the name of Darren Pierre
28:33
Speaker 1: as a company called Neuromuscular Orthotics helping kids and adults
28:39
Speaker 1: who need braces and parts to help them improve their walking.
28:42
Speaker 1: He saw that story, he got in touch. I went
28:45
Speaker 1: to Melbourne, I got fitted up with the lad braces,
28:48
Speaker 1: you know, and then I kind of lined up. The
28:50
Speaker 1: added bonus was having a foundation for kids in wool chairs.
28:53
Speaker 1: You know, we raised a whole lot of money, no pressure,
28:56
Speaker 1: and I asked a whole lot of friends would they
28:58
Speaker 1: be kind enough to come and join me.
28:59
Speaker 2: You've got through this therapy, and you've just sort of,
29:03
Speaker 2: as you've shared this story so far, you're kind of saying, yeah,
29:06
Speaker 2: we did a bit of this, and we did it
29:07
Speaker 2: with that, but that you've gone through some intense therapy.
29:09
Speaker 3: And I'm assuming that it wasn't for a couple of weeks.
29:12
Speaker 1: Well it initially, it happened very quickly, so it was
29:14
Speaker 1: just a shift of focus.
29:16
Speaker 4: I think it's important tonight. I mean, it's not like
29:18
Speaker 4: John just got out of his wheelchair and started walking.
29:21
Speaker 5: I mean, right, you know, and when we say walking,
29:24
Speaker 5: it was you know too, that's probably a little generous.
29:28
Speaker 5: I mean it was taking steps, and you know, and
29:30
Speaker 5: increasingly in a reasonably quick short period of time, over
29:36
Speaker 5: some six weeks or so, you know, he was taking
29:38
Speaker 5: more steps, but they were very unusual looking steps. I mean,
29:43
Speaker 5: you know, it's just important for people to know. I mean,
29:45
Speaker 5: he just didn't get out of his wheelchair and.
29:46
Speaker 2: Walk because those muscles haven't borne a load for twenty
29:50
Speaker 2: odd years, thirty odd years, and his right leg.
29:52
Speaker 4: Is all but the shouting is ninety nine percent paralyzed.
29:57
Speaker 1: So there's always a tripid notion about putting anyw on
30:00
Speaker 1: my right leg given bone density and how much it's
30:05
Speaker 1: actified over all those years. So I was very cautious
30:08
Speaker 1: about but then Ken's you've got to You've got to
30:11
Speaker 1: trust it. Let's see what happens. So as I was
30:14
Speaker 1: continually to do that, a lot of anxiety comes up
30:18
Speaker 1: with this process as well, because you have your eyes closed,
30:21
Speaker 1: which is different. You're switching off the visual cortex, and
30:24
Speaker 1: he loads you or puts resistance on in terms of
30:27
Speaker 1: a piece of equipment, whether you're pushing or pulling, and
30:30
Speaker 1: gets you to go really stolen. So that heightens all
30:32
Speaker 1: those levels of anxiety. And Ken's skill is to help
30:37
Speaker 1: you manage that anxiety, to bring it back to a baseline,
30:40
Speaker 1: to see what's possible. So you're letting go with the
30:43
Speaker 1: I can't, I can't, just to get into the space
30:46
Speaker 1: of okay, let's just see, let's explore. So Ken uses
30:50
Speaker 1: a lot of language that's encouraging to try and then
30:53
Speaker 1: seeing what the response of that trying is. So I
30:56
Speaker 1: members spot on it just didn't get up and start
30:58
Speaker 1: walking there was a lot, a lot of work spent
31:02
Speaker 1: in the lead up, and I guess I was the
31:05
Speaker 1: ideal candidate given being incomplete and wanting to try to
31:09
Speaker 1: apply an effort together a result.
31:11
Speaker 2: Okay, and you just mentioned the lead up, so let's
31:13
Speaker 2: dive into this. As you begin to see progress, you
31:16
Speaker 2: begin to take steps, you begin to apply load to
31:19
Speaker 2: your legs. You then decide that you're going to go
31:24
Speaker 2: back to the nep And triathlon again, but this time
31:26
Speaker 2: you're going to compete as an able bodied athlete. You
31:29
Speaker 2: haven't run, you haven't jogged, you haven't ridden a bike,
31:31
Speaker 2: but this is where you're going to go. And so
31:33
Speaker 2: over the next little while, you actually start to train,
31:35
Speaker 2: You get back onto a bike, you start to push
31:38
Speaker 2: the pedals, you start to actually carry load through your
31:43
Speaker 2: legs so that you can so that you can do this.
31:46
Speaker 2: And Amanda, you're watching this, and what are you thinking?
31:50
Speaker 2: Is he crazy or are you thinking he's going to
31:52
Speaker 2: do this. He's starting to bring sponsors on and raise
31:55
Speaker 2: funds for the foundation to help kids in wheelchairs? And
31:58
Speaker 2: are you thinking, oh, this is this is impossible?
32:02
Speaker 3: Or do we need to watch our language here and
32:04
Speaker 3: only be encouraging.
32:07
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I remember that the first time when
32:09
Speaker 5: I saw him walking on a treadmill when he came
32:12
Speaker 5: back from seeing Ken and you know, he was supported
32:15
Speaker 5: but per se taking steps on a treadmill very slowly,
32:21
Speaker 5: and I'm standing them in the gym with a girlfriend,
32:23
Speaker 5: and I'm like, this is real, right.
32:26
Speaker 4: You know, like John sick like because.
32:31
Speaker 5: It was just it was a bit like, you know,
32:33
Speaker 5: here he goes again doing something else extraordinary.
32:37
Speaker 4: But to watch that was really.
32:40
Speaker 5: It was very extraordinary for me, I mean, and then
32:44
Speaker 5: to watch it, to watch him improve, and to see
32:47
Speaker 5: firsthand and tenacity with which he approached it because I
32:51
Speaker 5: saw Beijing, you know, with his adaptive rowing and the
32:55
Speaker 5: focus and mentality of him, you know, as an athlete,
32:58
Speaker 5: and what that required it.
33:01
Speaker 4: You know. Then by this stage when he started walking,
33:03
Speaker 4: we had had Jack.
33:04
Speaker 5: Jack was about three, you know, and John sort of
33:08
Speaker 5: approached just you know, learning to walk again like he
33:11
Speaker 5: did an event. So again, I mean, for people who
33:14
Speaker 5: are listening, it's really important to note that, I mean
33:16
Speaker 5: John trained to walk, you know. He I was the
33:22
Speaker 5: income earner at that at that point, so and that
33:25
Speaker 5: was working well for us. John had the flexibility and
33:29
Speaker 5: we devoted John's time to training to walk. So he
33:35
Speaker 5: spent all day every day, you know, walking, you know,
33:38
Speaker 5: training building strengths.
33:40
Speaker 4: I mean, he lived that like he was doing an event.
33:42
Speaker 5: So not many people have that, you know, the luxury
33:47
Speaker 5: of just saying, Okay, I'm going to just focus my
33:50
Speaker 5: whole life or walking. So he had, you know, family life.
33:53
Speaker 5: But you know, it wasn't it wasn't an easy thing
33:57
Speaker 5: to do. It took up a lot of a lot
33:59
Speaker 5: of time and energy from his point of view in particular,
34:03
Speaker 5: and you know, from us as a family, I mean,
34:05
Speaker 5: it was a very you know. And then the goal
34:07
Speaker 5: became for him to do the Napean Triathlon as a
34:10
Speaker 5: conventional athlete, which was going to involve a ten k
34:14
Speaker 5: walk at the end, and you know, I mean just
34:17
Speaker 5: walking was it was slow, you know, and it was
34:20
Speaker 5: I'm still unsure and uncertain.
34:24
Speaker 4: I'll let you evolve on how that panned out.
34:27
Speaker 2: Yes, so you've set this goal and you said, I'm
34:30
Speaker 2: going to go back to the Nepean Triathlon, the one
34:31
Speaker 2: that I was training for in nineteen eighty eight when
34:33
Speaker 2: I was hit by the truck, the one that I
34:34
Speaker 2: competed in for the first time as a wheelchair athlete.
34:37
Speaker 2: Now I'm going to go back and I'm going to
34:38
Speaker 2: do it in two thousand and twenty fourteen as an
34:43
Speaker 2: able bodied athlete. And of course they were happy to
34:46
Speaker 2: have you along and you did it as a fundraiser.
34:49
Speaker 3: What I love.
34:49
Speaker 2: And you can see this on YouTube. In fact, I'll
34:53
Speaker 2: share a link in the show notes for the podcast.
34:55
Speaker 2: John does the swim, then he does the ride, but
34:59
Speaker 2: he can. It's that ten k run slash walk with you,
35:03
Speaker 2: Amanda and with Jack. The three of you crossed that.
35:06
Speaker 2: I'm going to get all weepy just talking about it.
35:08
Speaker 2: You cross that finish line together.
35:11
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it was pretty amazing. I mean I
35:14
Speaker 5: think to put in the picture the ten k walk.
35:16
Speaker 5: It was in Penrith, It was in November. It was
35:20
Speaker 5: thirty seven degrees and John had a full a full
35:26
Speaker 5: body like fixed thermal like a boxing suit to keep
35:30
Speaker 5: his body a bit straight, and then he had woolen
35:34
Speaker 5: tights on to hold the leg brace and a long
35:38
Speaker 5: sleep you know, cycling shirt you know, and the leg
35:42
Speaker 5: brace and poles and things in thirty seven degree heat.
35:45
Speaker 5: And it took him three and a half hours just
35:48
Speaker 5: to do the ten k walk, having already done what
35:52
Speaker 5: was it one case swim and the thirty k bike ride.
35:57
Speaker 4: So you know, the walk was long, and it was slow,
36:01
Speaker 4: and it was hard.
36:02
Speaker 5: I mean it was and it was it was hard
36:04
Speaker 5: to watch, you know from my point of view, because
36:06
Speaker 5: he deteriorated through the walk. You know, we his feet
36:11
Speaker 5: had turned into you know, not particularly good like.
36:16
Speaker 4: Hamburgery looking little things, which wasn't very good.
36:21
Speaker 5: So we were patching him up, you know, as he
36:22
Speaker 5: was walking, we were trying to keep him hydrated. The heat,
36:26
Speaker 5: you know, heat and exhaustion did get to him, and
36:28
Speaker 5: we lost him a couple of.
36:29
Speaker 4: Time, not loose, but you know, he did have to
36:31
Speaker 4: lie down a couple of times when we were pouring
36:33
Speaker 4: ice into his camp.
36:34
Speaker 5: And to be there watching him and be alongside him
36:37
Speaker 5: was you know, it was quite an anxious kind of time.
36:41
Speaker 4: And then Jack just joined us. He again, he was
36:44
Speaker 4: just on four. Then he just joined us.
36:46
Speaker 5: For the last sort of half a kilometer under duress,
36:51
Speaker 5: telling us could we hurry up? It was hot because
36:55
Speaker 5: John was walking so slow. But you know, we lost him.
36:58
Speaker 5: We lost John. When I say lost, you know, he
37:00
Speaker 5: sort of passed out a little bit about one hundred
37:02
Speaker 5: meters out and we were trying to get him back in.
37:05
Speaker 4: Jack's leaning down and you know, tapping him on the
37:08
Speaker 4: on the face.
37:08
Speaker 5: Going daddy, daddy, you know, come on, daddy, wake up, daddy,
37:12
Speaker 5: wake up, you know. And obviously John did a minute
37:15
Speaker 5: and I think there was no way that he was
37:18
Speaker 5: never going to do it, but it was it was
37:20
Speaker 5: an anxious thing to go through as a as someone
37:23
Speaker 5: so close to him.
37:24
Speaker 4: I think litt alone for what he was experiencing himself.
37:27
Speaker 2: Obviously, I watched the clip on YouTube and see you finishing,
37:35
Speaker 2: and it doesn't look like that. It looks like one
37:37
Speaker 2: of those rocky moments, like you know, victory and we've
37:39
Speaker 2: done it. So hearing that additional story just makes it
37:42
Speaker 2: that much perhaps not quite as romanticized, but no, it
37:46
Speaker 2: was hard, but it just.
37:48
Speaker 3: Makes it sound extraordinary.
37:50
Speaker 2: And then of course in the same clip, there's you
37:52
Speaker 2: and your family, John walking along the beach, you know,
37:55
Speaker 2: achieving the dream, and we began this conversation as you
37:59
Speaker 2: walk you literally you're walking around your house. You walked
38:02
Speaker 2: into the room and as you said, your right legs
38:04
Speaker 2: still it doesn't quite work just right.
38:06
Speaker 3: There's still some issues.
38:08
Speaker 2: With that, but it's astounding to be having a conversation
38:12
Speaker 2: with a guy who is not supposed to walk, and
38:15
Speaker 2: you're walking, and like you said, it's about that language.
38:18
Speaker 2: It's about that belief and being present and saying, well,
38:20
Speaker 2: where do I want to go?
38:21
Speaker 3: Now, we're running.
38:22
Speaker 2: Short on time because this is such an amazing story
38:24
Speaker 2: and we could just talk about this for the whole day.
38:27
Speaker 2: But a couple of quick questions. First of all, what
38:30
Speaker 2: do you think it's like for Jack? Does he see
38:32
Speaker 2: you guys as exemplars and extraordinary inspirational examples or does
38:36
Speaker 2: he roll his eyes and get tired of these resilience
38:39
Speaker 2: focused you can do it parents who are always saying, look,
38:42
Speaker 2: how fa you've come?
38:43
Speaker 3: Jack? Now, how far can you go?
38:44
Speaker 5: Yeah?
38:45
Speaker 6: So that was.
38:46
Speaker 1: Words from my dad to me, and you know the
38:49
Speaker 1: backstory for him to ask that question at that time.
38:53
Speaker 1: So I think if you looked at three generations, let's
38:55
Speaker 1: talk about my dad's, let's talk about mind, let's talk
38:57
Speaker 1: about Jack's. So I mentioned that my dad's love was singing,
39:02
Speaker 1: not mine. My love has always been movement. So that's
39:06
Speaker 1: been my journey and Jack's, I think it's safe to
39:08
Speaker 1: say it for us, is that he's a creative little
39:10
Speaker 1: guy who's he lives in his head and it's just
39:13
Speaker 1: awesome to watch him be himself. So I had no
39:16
Speaker 1: we had no expectation in him, you know, being a
39:19
Speaker 1: sport guy, because neither would my dad have had any
39:22
Speaker 1: expectation of me being a singer. So I don't say
39:26
Speaker 1: those questions to Jack about I do say, but always
39:29
Speaker 1: wanted to try his best. Mom and dad would like
39:31
Speaker 1: him to do that. So I think he's he's his
39:35
Speaker 1: own little guy, doing his own little thing, and where
39:37
Speaker 1: you know, we love him and support him for whatever
39:39
Speaker 1: he chooses to do.
39:40
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think we initially before we before
39:43
Speaker 5: we knew that he really wasn't. I mean, he plays sport,
39:47
Speaker 5: but he's just not a supporting guy. I mean he's
39:48
Speaker 5: not he's not fast, he's not highly competitive.
39:51
Speaker 4: He just, you know, if he likes to do it,
39:53
Speaker 4: he goes and does it. If he doesn't want to
39:54
Speaker 4: do it, he just doesn't do it. But he loves
39:57
Speaker 4: to draw.
39:58
Speaker 5: He's a great artist, you know, he loves imagination, play,
40:02
Speaker 5: all of that sort of thing.
40:03
Speaker 4: He's And I.
40:04
Speaker 5: Think before we worked that out, we were really conscious
40:08
Speaker 5: that we didn't want to growing up in John's shadows.
40:12
Speaker 5: So you know, we didn't want people saying, you know, Jen,
40:16
Speaker 5: your first triathleon yet Jack. And you know, when you're
40:19
Speaker 5: well one day, you know you do, you'll have to
40:21
Speaker 5: do a double crossing at the channel, and you know,
40:23
Speaker 5: just those sorts.
40:24
Speaker 4: Of things which are natural enough things to say.
40:26
Speaker 5: And he only knows John's story, but he doesn't really
40:30
Speaker 5: pay much attention, if I'm honest, unless unless he thinks
40:34
Speaker 5: it's quite cool that Dad's got a book. Sometimes you know,
40:37
Speaker 5: if someone asks, and you know, you'll go, oh, yeah,
40:39
Speaker 5: my dad's got a book, or you know, maybe there's
40:43
Speaker 5: a movie or something. But he's really pretty nonplussed about it.
40:48
Speaker 5: And we really give him, you know, for us, it's
40:52
Speaker 5: more about him than it is about us, and it's
40:54
Speaker 5: about you know, what he wants to do in supporting.
40:58
Speaker 4: Where he wants to go.
41:00
Speaker 5: So he does live in a very I mean, as
41:02
Speaker 5: I said, John's very sunny side, So he lives in
41:05
Speaker 5: a very can do environment, I guess, especially from John's
41:10
Speaker 5: point of view. You know, he sees Dad out there,
41:12
Speaker 5: you know, trying to ride a bike or trying a
41:14
Speaker 5: new league grace or getting on the treadmill or you know,
41:16
Speaker 5: but he he doesn't really care, you know too much.
41:20
Speaker 3: Kids.
41:20
Speaker 2: Kids are kind of oblivious, aren't they sometimes? And that
41:24
Speaker 2: might bet that might be a good thing. Maybe now
41:27
Speaker 2: I met it. We're almost out of time, and there
41:30
Speaker 2: are five questions that I always wrap every one of
41:32
Speaker 2: these Pairenting in.
41:32
Speaker 3: Perspective podcasts with.
41:34
Speaker 2: But before we get there, I really want to bring
41:36
Speaker 2: you right into the light because I'd imagine that the
41:40
Speaker 2: support John's needed over the years is pretty extraordinary. So John,
41:43
Speaker 2: can you talk a bit about what it's like to
41:45
Speaker 2: be married to Amanda and how the two of you
41:47
Speaker 2: have come together and created that sense of unity and
41:51
Speaker 2: mutual support and belonging that seems to work so well
41:53
Speaker 2: for you both.
41:54
Speaker 3: What makes your marriage go so well?
41:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess I was chosing sport dreams for
41:59
Speaker 1: a long time. I realized I was kind of missing out,
42:01
Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of my friends had gone
42:03
Speaker 1: on to get married and have kids. So, I mean,
42:06
Speaker 1: we met in unusual circumstances and with the stage of
42:09
Speaker 1: life that we were both at. So the thing that
42:12
Speaker 1: we had straight away we had things in common in
42:15
Speaker 1: terms of life lived experiences. Had So when I kind
42:19
Speaker 1: of first started to you know, find out whether Amanda
42:21
Speaker 1: would be remotely interested in men as a partner. Then
42:25
Speaker 1: things really started to just fit into its groove. And
42:28
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say interested in Amanda's perspective,
42:31
Speaker 1: but were completely opposites, but completely and that's why it works.
42:35
Speaker 1: So there are times for frustration or both, no doubt.
42:38
Speaker 1: But so Amanda is the glue the kids that our
42:41
Speaker 1: family together, and she kind of she gets Jack. I
42:44
Speaker 1: may comment on a regular basis that you know, for
42:46
Speaker 1: us in terms of whitepinion, she's the world's best mum.
42:49
Speaker 1: And Jack's just so lucky to you know, to have
42:52
Speaker 1: his mom as his mum. And you know, so I
42:56
Speaker 1: sit back every own again observe, which sometimes but Amanda
43:01
Speaker 1: is just perfect for us as a family, and I'm
43:03
Speaker 1: really lucky to have her as a wife and Jack
43:05
Speaker 1: to head as a well.
43:06
Speaker 5: We often say that John's big picture and I'm detail
43:10
Speaker 5: and any kind of detail organized person who lives with
43:16
Speaker 5: the big picture, dreaming person will understand that there are
43:20
Speaker 5: natural tensions and frustrations that can come with that. So
43:24
Speaker 5: I mean we're by no means, by no means perfect.
43:26
Speaker 5: You know, I have some sort of idealic marriage by
43:30
Speaker 5: any stretching the imagination. But what we do have is
43:33
Speaker 5: I think we pick our fights and I think we
43:35
Speaker 5: don't swept this small stuff so much. To a certain extent,
43:39
Speaker 5: we know our role, not know our roles, but we've
43:41
Speaker 5: evolved into our own roles in a way, especially with Jack,
43:45
Speaker 5: and I think there's a difference between which is you know.
43:47
Speaker 3: Works well no matter.
43:48
Speaker 2: I've been watching the way John's speaking about you, in
43:51
Speaker 2: the way he looks at you or you're speaking, and
43:53
Speaker 2: I feel confident in my professional opinion to say that
43:55
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure he's crazy about you.
43:58
Speaker 1: Nice good observations.
44:00
Speaker 3: Doc there, guys.
44:03
Speaker 2: Let's let's wrap this up with these five questions that
44:05
Speaker 2: I really love to play with and get into. If
44:09
Speaker 2: we were to ask Jack his favorite thing to do
44:10
Speaker 2: with you, what would he say at the moment.
44:13
Speaker 1: He loves cars in particular. His favorites are A land
44:15
Speaker 1: Beginni Guyosa. So I'm tak him to look at really
44:21
Speaker 1: cool fast cars.
44:22
Speaker 5: It'll be for me it would be the nighttime snuggle.
44:24
Speaker 5: I'm kind of you know, the real mum. So it's
44:26
Speaker 5: like the snuggle at night before it goes to be.
44:28
Speaker 5: That's that's kind of his thing with me.
44:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, best of both worlds. Okay, what's been your trickiest
44:33
Speaker 3: parenting moment.
44:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jack's kind of anxiety things, so I kind of
44:40
Speaker 1: struggle around that. It's not my strength at all, that
44:42
Speaker 1: would be something I struggle.
44:44
Speaker 5: I think Jack does suffer from some anxiety and some
44:47
Speaker 5: low self esteem kind of issues, so he can get
44:50
Speaker 5: triggered and he can have difficulties in that space, and
44:53
Speaker 5: trying to get him out of that and having the
44:56
Speaker 5: right amount of patience and understanding and connection to all
45:00
Speaker 5: him out is.
45:02
Speaker 4: Hard for us.
45:03
Speaker 5: He has his own little quirks and they can you know,
45:06
Speaker 5: they can be quite hard to manage.
45:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, so tricky when you're such a such a driven
45:11
Speaker 2: person or a driven couple, and there's so much hope
45:14
Speaker 2: and there's so much to achieve, and then you've got
45:16
Speaker 2: this person who might quite listen to you because they're
45:18
Speaker 2: caught up in what's right in front of them and
45:20
Speaker 2: it's dragging them down and you want to build them up,
45:22
Speaker 2: but they they're just so in the moment that you can't.
45:25
Speaker 2: What about this question, This is my third of the five.
45:28
Speaker 2: If you could spend an hour with Jacket any age
45:30
Speaker 2: at all, what age would you pick and why.
45:33
Speaker 1: I love where he's at at the moment because I'm
45:34
Speaker 1: always kind of trying to live in the moment and
45:37
Speaker 1: is evolving in the ways at the moments just awesome.
45:40
Speaker 1: But if I was to look back, I miss those
45:42
Speaker 1: cuddles when he wanted to give us kind of to
45:44
Speaker 1: give Daddy a cuddle, where now it's us for a cuddle.
45:47
Speaker 1: He kind of turns his back, so it's me kind
45:48
Speaker 1: of cutting him, not in cutting me, but in all
45:51
Speaker 1: stages have been amazing and I'm loving him where he
45:54
Speaker 1: is right now.
45:56
Speaker 5: I mean that is impossible for me to answer. I
45:59
Speaker 5: mean I would have every single moment all over again.
46:02
Speaker 5: I mean, I like, you know, i'd have him back
46:04
Speaker 5: as a baby, as a three year older, I'd have
46:06
Speaker 5: him back, and as terrible to like, you know, any time,
46:09
Speaker 5: any anyway, he's you know, he's an awesome little guy
46:12
Speaker 5: and has been right the way through.
46:13
Speaker 2: I've asked I've asked that question a lot of times
46:15
Speaker 2: a man, and nobody's ever said that, And that is
46:17
Speaker 2: just so beautiful.
46:18
Speaker 3: Thank you.
46:18
Speaker 4: Oh really, I just kind of I just couldn't. Yeah,
46:21
Speaker 4: I couldn't distinguish one from the other.
46:23
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, matter how good life's been, and no
46:26
Speaker 2: matter how glad you are to be in the moment, John,
46:28
Speaker 2: what are you most looking forward to his parents?
46:31
Speaker 1: I'm a father. I'll afford to being a grandfather, but
46:34
Speaker 1: which I think that's going to take a bit of time.
46:37
Speaker 1: That's what I'm going to keep, don't know what. I'm
46:39
Speaker 1: going to keep being helping so I can be around
46:40
Speaker 1: for while.
46:41
Speaker 5: Seeing who Jack becomes and what he overcomes is the
46:44
Speaker 5: thing for me. You know, I'm really interested to see
46:47
Speaker 5: who he becomes, you know, how this creativity that he
46:50
Speaker 5: has manifests as he gets older, and how he starts
46:54
Speaker 5: to manage himself and learn about his own self and
46:58
Speaker 5: his anxieties and things. I've had issues without myself and
47:01
Speaker 5: they came later in life for me, and I think
47:03
Speaker 5: our focus is trying to help him to understand who
47:06
Speaker 5: he is and you know, had a best manage when things.
47:12
Speaker 4: Don't go don't go to plan. And I'm you know,
47:15
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to seeing how he takes on the world.
47:17
Speaker 2: I guess final question, if you could go back to
47:20
Speaker 2: John and Amanda maclain as young parents, even though you
47:22
Speaker 2: weren't quite so young, but you know you're having one
47:25
Speaker 2: of those tough moments. You've got no experience at actually
47:27
Speaker 2: raising a child. What advice would you give yourself if
47:31
Speaker 2: you're starting all over again?
47:33
Speaker 1: Just stay in the moment, because at the moments are
47:35
Speaker 1: so sleeping, The gard by so quick. So you know,
47:39
Speaker 1: sometimes he's on his trampoline, I'm thinking about other things
47:41
Speaker 1: when all he wants me to do is watch them
47:43
Speaker 1: on the trampoline. So examples of staying in the moment.
47:46
Speaker 1: But again, we're kind of loving him evolved. But you know,
47:49
Speaker 1: it's challenging with all the things that are happening all
47:51
Speaker 1: the time about trying to stay in the moment. But
47:53
Speaker 1: that's what.
47:53
Speaker 3: I'll do, right What about your manna?
47:55
Speaker 4: I think for me it's patience and intuition.
47:58
Speaker 5: I think not that I have had a lack of patience,
48:01
Speaker 5: but just really understanding that taking the time to understand
48:04
Speaker 5: him as a as a person, rather than thinking that
48:07
Speaker 5: maybe you know, the terrible twos are the terrible twos,
48:10
Speaker 5: there might be something more to that, or misbehavior is misbehavior.
48:14
Speaker 4: You know a lot of the.
48:15
Speaker 5: Time, you know, for Jack in particulars as he's grown up,
48:20
Speaker 5: the more time that I spent trying to help him
48:23
Speaker 5: and work out who he is. The more we've been
48:26
Speaker 5: able to connect, and that emotional engagement and understanding who
48:30
Speaker 5: he is, and that sometimes triggers for behavior.
48:33
Speaker 4: You know, the behavior is something deeper. It's not just
48:37
Speaker 4: a belligerent kind of reaction to something.
48:40
Speaker 5: And I think I would tell myself earlier just to
48:43
Speaker 5: understand that sometimes kids aren't just you know, naughty for
48:46
Speaker 5: the sake of being naughty. I mean there is a
48:48
Speaker 5: or they're not, you know.
48:50
Speaker 4: Sad for the sake of being sad.
48:51
Speaker 5: There's actually you know, there's things behind there, and you know,
48:54
Speaker 5: use your intuition.
48:56
Speaker 3: Wonderful.
48:56
Speaker 2: So if people want to find out more about you, John,
48:59
Speaker 2: you've written a book, tell us about the book or books?
49:02
Speaker 1: Yes, again taking the liberty of using the question that
49:08
Speaker 1: was close to me for my dad. The title of
49:09
Speaker 1: the book is how Far Can You Go? I thought
49:11
Speaker 1: that was quite apt. So that's the name of the book.
49:14
Speaker 2: And I've read that book and I love it, and
49:15
Speaker 2: it's available online everywhere, and it's just it tells the
49:18
Speaker 2: story so brilliantly. So how Far can You Go?
49:21
Speaker 3: As the book?
49:22
Speaker 1: And also people an access that via our website, johnal
49:25
Speaker 1: Claim dot com dot are you Yeah? So excited about
49:28
Speaker 1: almost finished the next book. It's about to come out.
49:29
Speaker 1: What are the steps to change? Changes? My topic? What's
49:33
Speaker 1: the methodology? So it's coming out soon. That's titled change
49:36
Speaker 1: a Constant.
49:37
Speaker 2: Challenge and I love I love the play on words.
49:40
Speaker 2: There were steps to change. And lastly, you run a foundation,
49:43
Speaker 2: the John McLain Foundation. Tell us a bit about that
49:46
Speaker 2: and how people can find out more.
49:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, the foundation JMF dot com dot au John McClain Foundation.
49:52
Speaker 1: We help kids in mud chairs around our countries to
49:54
Speaker 1: improve their quality of life via it could be a
49:57
Speaker 1: bit of sporting equipment, it could be a computer, would
50:00
Speaker 1: be a musical instrument. Often the families are doing it
50:03
Speaker 1: quite tough, sometimes individual families, so it's means tested. We'll
50:06
Speaker 1: get out there to try and give a little bit
50:08
Speaker 1: back and that's what the John McClean Foundation does. So
50:10
Speaker 1: I'm being kids in wheelchairs.
50:11
Speaker 2: Well, John and a man of mclin thank you so
50:13
Speaker 2: much spending this time so generously and sharing your story
50:17
Speaker 2: and your advice and.
50:18
Speaker 3: Your wisdom and ideas. It's been wonderful to chat.
50:21
Speaker 4: Thanks so much. Thanks for having us, it's been great.
50:26
Speaker 2: Well, if that conversation has not inspired you to get
50:29
Speaker 2: out and live life to the fullest time. I don't
50:30
Speaker 2: know what will what an incredible story. I really hope
50:34
Speaker 2: that you've taken some inspiration from John and Amanda's story
50:38
Speaker 2: as a result of this Parenting in Perspective podcast. I
50:41
Speaker 2: love the phrase that Amanda used to describe John reasonably
50:44
Speaker 2: extraordinary and that visual image of John taking the bins
50:48
Speaker 2: out in his wheelchair, even though it would take him
50:50
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes. Just wonderful, resilience, tenacity, growth, extraordinary stuff. You
50:56
Speaker 2: can find out more about John and the work of
50:57
Speaker 2: the John mcclin Foundation at John McLain dot com. And
51:01
Speaker 2: we've also put his book How Far Can You Go
51:04
Speaker 2: into Our Happy Family's website, the what we Love page
51:09
Speaker 2: where we highlight all the things that we think are great.
51:11
Speaker 2: You can jump on there, and that's the easiest way
51:13
Speaker 2: to find Oh, it's one of many easy ways to
51:14
Speaker 2: find his book, How Far Can You Go.
51:16
Speaker 1: Well.
51:17
Speaker 2: Coming up on the next Parenting in Perspective podcast, we're
51:19
Speaker 2: going to be talking about kids, independence and resilience with author,
51:23
Speaker 2: TV host and founder of the Free Range Kids movement LENORSKANESI.
51:28
Speaker 6: There's no way to be a parent without being worried,
51:31
Speaker 6: or at least I haven't figured.
51:33
Speaker 4: That out yet.
51:34
Speaker 6: When my mom let me walk to school and it
51:36
Speaker 6: was age five, and she didn't do it because she
51:38
Speaker 6: was a free range mom or a crazy person. She
51:40
Speaker 6: was doing it because everybody let their kids walk to
51:42
Speaker 6: school at age five. You weren't thinking that a normal mom,
51:46
Speaker 6: a normal good mom, should be thinking about the murder
51:50
Speaker 6: of their child every time the child was out of
51:53
Speaker 6: their sight. That is new, and it feels normal because
51:58
Speaker 6: it is normal to worry. But I feel like these
52:02
Speaker 6: new extravagant worries are super imposed on us by a
52:06
Speaker 6: culture that's.
52:07
Speaker 2: The founder of the free range Kids movement and let
52:09
Speaker 2: grow dot Org Lenorskenesi my next guest on the Parenting
52:13
Speaker 2: in Perspective podcast, And as always, just before we wrap
52:16
Speaker 2: this up, thank you so very much to everybody who
52:19
Speaker 2: has left reviews and five star ratings at the Apple
52:23
Speaker 2: Podcasts reviews space. Thank you to cav nineteen eighty who
52:27
Speaker 2: said thank you from the bottom of my heart, thanks
52:30
Speaker 2: so much. I recently attended your webinar lightning the lockdown Load,
52:34
Speaker 2: and I am a fan. It's been three hours and
52:35
Speaker 2: I've been going through the topics in your podcast that
52:37
Speaker 2: are relevant for me and my family. I'm excited to
52:40
Speaker 2: try some of the strategies you've suggested. We'll let you
52:42
Speaker 2: know how I go. Thanks so much again, We'll Cave
52:44
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty. Thank you for the five star review and
52:46
Speaker 2: spending three hours just to get started on all of
52:50
Speaker 2: the podcasts that we've got. We've got over one hundred
52:52
Speaker 2: and twenty about one hundred and thirty episodes now, and
52:56
Speaker 2: the podcast is going from strength to strength. It's great
52:58
Speaker 2: to have you listening, and it's just wonderful to get
53:01
Speaker 2: your feedback.
53:02
Speaker 3: Really appreciate those reviews.
53:03
Speaker 2: By the way, please if you listen to the podcast,
53:06
Speaker 2: take a couple of minutes, find the Justin Colson's Happy
53:09
Speaker 2: Families podcast on Apple Podcasts and leave that review, because
53:13
Speaker 2: everybody gets to find out about the podcast. When you
53:16
Speaker 2: do that, the ratings and the reviews make the podcast
53:18
Speaker 2: more visible. Apple prioritizes it and we get to help
53:20
Speaker 2: a whole lot more families to be happier and hear
53:23
Speaker 2: these great conversations. So please help us to get the
53:25
Speaker 2: word out or just share it from your podcast app
53:28
Speaker 2: so that people can listen that way as well. If
53:30
Speaker 2: you'd like more info, on how I can help your
53:31
Speaker 2: family flourish, especially if you'd like to have ongoing monthly
53:35
Speaker 2: support via our amazing and growing Happy Families memberships. Visit
53:40
Speaker 2: happyfamilies dot com dot au the family. Like I said,
53:43
Speaker 2: it's growing, It's getting bigger every day. You can also
53:45
Speaker 2: visit my Facebook page, doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families and
53:48
Speaker 2: as always, thank you to Justin Royland for his work
53:51
Speaker 2: in producing the podcast and making it sound so great,
53:54
Speaker 2: and thank you for listening to Parenting in Perspective a
53:58
Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast