Latest / Breaking The Meta / Can a "People First" Platform Fix American Politics? | Pallavi Bugga (APC)
Transcript
- Mike Winson: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Breaking the Meta. My name is Mike Quins. And today we are sitting down with a very special guest. ⁓ we are living in a very divisive world right now where there's a lot of issues, a lot of problems. Americans are suffering. And my guest today, one of one of her organization's goals is to help bring people together, no matter what side of the aisle you're on, and focus on the problems that we all experience. Republican, Democrat, Independent. Her name is Pallavi Buga and she is one of the people that started. Did you start it? One of the people that started the America American People's Compact or the APC. Hello, Pallavi. How are you doing today? Pallavi Bugga: Yep, that's right. ⁓ I'm doing well, Mike. Thank you so much for making the time to have me on. Very excited to be here. Mike Winson: Absolutely. So why don't you just give us a little background on the American People's Compact and how this all got started? Pallavi Bugga: Yes, for sure, I'm happy to. So ⁓ the American People's Compact is a nonprofit 501c4 organization that started relatively recently, actually. My husband, who is also my co-founder and I started it in October, and we officially registered in January of this year. And really, like I think a lot of ⁓ organizations that have sort of popped up recently, we were motivated by the 2024 elections. And that was truly a moment of introspection and reflection for us, just sort of thinking How did we get here? What is going on? We're living in a time of hyperpartisanship. And it just felt like there were a lot of issues that were plaguing American politics that really came to a head at this election and this year. And we felt like maybe this was our time to do something about it. And so we decided to create the American People's Compact. And the organization is really motivated by a few different things. So the first thing, as I mentioned, is it really feels like Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: Our elected officials no longer represent what Americans want them to take care of. What Americans feel like are top-of-mind issues, what Americans are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. And I think that is a really significant issue. We hear in the media, we hear elected officials talking about these very hyperpartisan issues. And yet people cannot afford to buy groceries. People can't afford healthcare. They can't afford medicine. They can't afford housing. And the affordability crisis has really sort of become Such a massive monumental thing that we need people in the government to address, and they just have not. And I think that is one really big problem. The second thing is also the hyperpartisanship. And I think this was sort of guided by we live in Michigan, that's where we're based, ⁓ conversations with people in our community and just people around the state. Michigan is very much a bellwether for national politics, and it's really fascinating when you talk to people to hear that. Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: There's far more agreement around a lot of policy items than politics or media would lead you to suggest. And I think this is not a novel concept. Scholars have reported on this, other policy experts have reported on this. There's organizations before us who have sort of coalesced around this idea that we agree on more than it looks like we agree, and yet we are still in the same position where these items that we agree on are not actually being. manifested into law or policy in any meaningful way that could address the issues that we need addressed. And so we decided to sort of create this organization to help push electeds to actually realign themselves with what Americans want. So in many ways it is sort of like a, I would say, a populist people first agenda. And I think we really need that in the current time that we live in. And the last thing is it very much felt like coming out of Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: 2024 election and just sort of the whole campaign process that the Democratic Party, for at least in the perception of many people, had situated itself as very oppositional. And I will not comment on the benefits of that strategy because obviously there's you know pros and cons to everything, but I think people really want to see a vision for the future. And it's hard when everything is sort of against something else to really understand what that vision for the future should be. And so we wanted to really leverage an Mike Winson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: a propositional agenda that could sort of lay out a platform that people could aspire to, people could adopt, people could advocate around. And so we decided to create the American People's Compact. We looked at national existing survey data and we found the top 16 domestic issues that Americans have identified. And then we did a ton of work into identifying research, papers, actual real-life examples from cities within America, states within America, even you know abroad, To try and see which policy solutions could actually effectuate these. Then we did a poll. We we actually invested our own money and we partnered with a research firm and we pulled 9,000 Americans across the aisle, all ages, people who voted for Trump, people who voted for Biden, people who voted across the spectrum, people, people who did not vote. And eight in 10 of those surveyed, 80%, were behind the American People's Compact, which I think really, really shows the power in putting a people first agenda forward. Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: And so we created this organization and we've now tried to expand this through a variety of avenues, which I'm happy to speak on later. Organizational partnerships, a more grassroots advocacy approach, and candidate partnerships. And that was a really long-winded answer to one question that you asked, but it's little bit about what the APC is about. Mike Winson: Yeah. No, that's great. ⁓ so were you and your husband into politics before this started? Was that was that a part of your background? Pallavi Bugga: Not formally. I think we've always been very involved just in a volunteering capacity. I, for one, was very much motivated by Bernie Sanders campaign. I volunteered for Bernie Sanders. My husband did as well. ⁓ but I think it's always sort of affected our work. I am a civil rights attorney just by practice. My husband is a physician, and we have sort of independently seen the impacts that, you know, policies. both currently and in the past could have on the real life lived experiences of people. And through that, we started doing more local advocacy within our communities here in Michigan. But this is really the first more formal political or political adjacent undertaking that we've really engaged in before. So maybe that's a sign that I don't know if I should say anyone can do it because I don't know if we're doing it, but it I think there's a call for everyone to really be involved in government because it's really supposed to be for the people, of the people, by the people. Mike Winson: I think if nothing else, it shows that ⁓ that more people are getting involved in some way, shape, or form. Because you starting a an organization, me doing a podcast, ⁓ and and people some sometimes just going and talking to your neighbors. You know, it it takes all of it. It's not just it's not just one thing. And if any one of us doing what we're doing can help push the conversation, push the narrative of we are. Pallavi Bugga: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Winson: We are a country that agrees more than we actually disagree. I think I I I think the answer is yes. Anyone can do it. ⁓ yeah. No, no, go. If you have something to say, go. Pallavi Bugga: Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And it's go ahead. I was gonna say, I mean, if there's any silver lining to the moment that we're in, it's that we've had the chance to see so many people sort of step up out of the box, out of what they've ever done in their lives before, to really engage in a way that they haven't. And that has been really, really motivating to see. Mike Winson: Yeah. So for I think one of the things that a lot of people struggle with when it comes to a group like the American People's Compact, there's obviously a lot of distrust when it comes to 50 C one C threes and C4s right now. Just to to give people an idea, what does it mean? two things. What what does it mean when a Pallavi Bugga: Yeah. Mike Winson: when you are looking at a candidate, talking a candidate, when a candidate takes, ⁓ you know, becomes a ⁓ member, I'm not even sure how how it looks for you guys, but becomes a member of the American People's Compact. And what what do you as an organization like what what do you guys do? What what is your goals long term in interacting with candidates and politics and organizations, et cetera? Pallavi Bugga: Yes, that's a great question. I will say that we are rapidly evolving to try and see how we can best plug in. And so how I answered this question now might not totally reflect where we are six months from now. But ⁓ as it stands, the APC Candidate Pledge is really designed to help support and identify candidates who are willing to commit themselves to advancing a majority of items within the American People's Compact. So as I mentioned before. Mike Winson: Mm. Pallavi Bugga: American People's Compact is really sort of an expansive 16-point policy platform to address top-of-mind domestic issues that Americans have identified. So when American People's Compact candidate basically is taking this pledge, what they're saying is they commit, whether it be through you know legislative action or policy, votes, anything to advance a majority of these items. And it doesn't need to be a one for one every single policy solution, but really the broader thrust of what this platform is supposed to be about. So for instance, when you're looking at housing, they don't necessarily need to support specifically like adaptive reuse or something like that. But rather just this idea of promoting affordable housing and sort of fighting back against NIMBYism and things like that. It's sort of like the broader thing that we look at. And the the reason why we sort of started this pledge process is twofold. One, it's to sort of Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: Provide candidates who are coming into this field who want to actually be a people-first candidate with tools and with message-tested, nationally pulled, a pre-existing, well-developed platform that has bipartisan resonance, and give that platform to them so that they're actually able to utilize it in a way that could meaningfully effectuate the wants and desires and goals of just what the American peoples want. Because that's how we sort of view the American People's Compact Policy Platform. The second thing though, and this is something that we hope will take broader effect in the future as we sort of build up our organization and sort of our visibility, is that it'll be a signal for just the American general public that when we have a candidate who has aligned themselves with the APC, people will automatically recognize, like, okay, this candidate cares about issues that I care about. They are willing to put these items first. And that means that hopefully I will want to vote for them. So it's sort of a twofold thing. One is A signal for the public and two for candidates that's sort of like a a pre-existing platform that they could adopt. What we're trying to do now, and we're sort of thinking through how to best do this, is trying to level the playing field for a lot of candidates who are coming on who are wanting to take the American People's Compact Candidate Pledge. Because one of the big things that we have sort of focused on as one of our items is reducing the influence of corporate PACs and special interests on politics. And that makes it really hard for candidates who Mike Winson: Mm. Pallavi Bugga: are, you know, putting their ethics first and choosing not to align themselves with these sort of organizations to make meaningful headway. And so we're trying to identify how we could help candidates who are willing to take this pledge actually sort of level the playing field through social media, through helping with canvassing and things like that. And so we are moving into the direction of potentially becoming a PAC, but this is something that, you know, is very much in the works at the moment. Mike Winson: Yeah. ⁓ obviously, ⁓ as you said, you're in Michigan and you've got your at the time of this recording, you're one day away from your primaries. ⁓ how Pallavi Bugga: Right. Mike Winson: Michigan is kind of in the spotlight right now, especially with your Senate race, most of all. How do you as a as a I guess you as a person? We're gonna talk to you as a person just as much as we're gonna talk about the Pong. How how do you slash the people around you? How how what kind of reaction are you seeing, especially on the Democratic side, with Pallavi Bugga: Yeah. Mike Winson: the the strain coming from the Abdul A-Said Haley Stevens primary forget interacting with the Republican candidate. What what's like what is it like for people? Cause we're obviously in other states, we're hearing a very different kind of reality. Pallavi Bugga: You know, it's so it's so fascinating, Mike, because I really feel like a lot of issues that were sort of in the background in prior elections have really come to the foreground here. Mike Winson: Mm. Pallavi Bugga: One is, for example, the influence of special interest corporate PAC money. I think I have never seen this level of visibility for good reason, obviously, ⁓ sort of come into the mainstream conversation related to candidates. Because when we look at prior elections, yes, unfortunately, it's a real a reality that a lot of Democratic candidates would take corporate PAC, would take special interest PAC. But I think now the fact that people Are clearly identifying which candidates are funded through which sources, and that has become such a mainstream talking point, is a really, really novel and new thing, at least in my experience that I've seen within the the conversation that people are having related to these two candidates. And I think the second thing is there seems to be much more engagement amongst the younger populations ⁓ here in Michigan. We very much so I'm in Ann Arbor, so I live in a university town, and I think Mike Winson: Mm. Pallavi Bugga: Through that, you know, you're sort of plugged into conversations that are happening amongst a younger electorate, students and grad students, and things of the sort. And I think there's so much more engagement amongst youth and excitement around this race compared to prior. And the last time I've seen this level of engagement was when we had like the reproductive freedom for all ballot initiative, because that was another issue that really sort of galvanized the younger electorate. And so I think that is something that. Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: is really exciting to see and I'm hopeful that it will mean that we have more people turning up to vote tomorrow, more people who are actually willing to be engaged. And it's actually really exciting to see this level of energy for a primary. Usually it's for like the main elections that we see, people talking to this level and showing up and you know, campaigning, getting involved. But here for a primary, it's been like so much participation. And I think that has been great. I am really excited. Mike Winson: Yes. Yeah. It it brings up an interesting question because just like with, you know, a lot of the conversation around Abdul al-Sahid and Haley Stevens is not just whether they take pack money, but who they also think could beat the the Republican in the general election. And you're hearing that in many other states. Montana is another one. A lot of states that are trying to run independence as well. It's Well, you know, who's who's more electable? Pallavi Bugga: Yeah, yeah. Mike Winson: You know, your pack, ⁓ and I and I'm making an assumption, so tell me if I'm wrong. In the grand scheme of things, your pack, your your compact does not care whether or not they are Republican or Democrat or independent. It's what they're willing, it's it's whether or not they're willing to agree to these, or at least to some extent, agree to the the 16 points of it, correct? So how Pallavi Bugga: Yeah. That is right. Yep. Mike Winson: How do you how do you see that interaction going forward with this idea of electability? Because I feel like electability to people my age and older, which I'm not even gonna guess your age, but I'm probably older than you, even though I may not look it. ⁓ We view the I our views on electability are very different from Millennials and Gen Z's view on electability. ⁓ how do you see that kind of idea going forward, especially in the as you've been interacting with candidates and people while you've been working on this? Pallavi Bugga: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I think for me, my view on electability was very much shaped by sort of the overall national conversation during the Bernie Sanders twenty sixteen Bernie Sanders Hillary Clinton primary because I think that was a big, big issue that came up for a lot of people of Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: ⁓ Bernie Sanders is not going to be as electable for X, Y, and Z reasons. And I think the moment that we're in now poses a really great contrast to the moment of 2016 because we have seen that people who have been cast as perhaps less electable because of how populist they might be, or progressive, or you know, socialist they might be, makes them less electable. And yet here we've seen people like Mamdani win. We've seen sort of a resurgence of Mike Winson: Yes. Pallavi Bugga: democratic socialism and progressivism and an appetite for breaking out of this traditional establishment type of politics. And I think that has sort of changed the conversation around electability in a way that it might have been defined in 2016. And so now I think when people think about electability, it's less of a choice between the lesser of two evils and more of I am going to vote for the person who aligns with my principles because That is just the the candidate that the moment needs right now. And I will say as an added caveat to all of this, I think the data really does support that sort of aligning yourself with like a populist people-first type agenda does cross party lines. And we have seen that in practice with Bernie with Mamdani, who were able to attract candidates from across the aisle, not typically Democratic candidates. And the data also shows this. I mean, we have Republicans who support a lot of what we conventionally cast as progressive or democratic. Mike Winson: Mm-hmm. Pallavi Bugga: issue policy items. And yet when you look at the traditional Democratic candidate or traditional Republican candidate, you wouldn't think that there's agreement across these areas. And I think we finally need to embrace that we could have candidates who are willing to embrace a people first before part policy, sorry, a people first before party type of platform. And that is how we define electability. It's not in terms of how closely aligned you are to your party. It's in terms of how closely you are aligned to what the people actually want. Mike Winson: Do you think that that also requires more people to get involved, especially in the primaries? Because the idea of the of the lesser of two evils has always come on the general election side. Because most people don't realize or don't accept that 15 to 25% is your average is your average voting population for primaries. So in the end, yeah, you are getting. Pallavi Bugga: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Winson: You are getting the lesser of two evils oftentimes when only fifteen percent of your state is deciding who your choices are. Pallavi Bugga: Right, right. I agree. And I think voter engagement in the primaries is an absolute must in order to actually push beyond this narrative electability that we have. And I would hope that regardless of how you feel about the current government, I would hope that this moment that we're in would lend you to realize that it's very important to show up and vote because we wouldn't be in this moment if more people had actually showed up during the presidential elections or had showed up for prior elections. Mike Winson: So I wanna talk a little bit about your the poll that you did, if you don't mind. so when when when did you do the poll? Like when was the poll from? Pallavi Bugga: Yeah, yeah. So we did the poll in September of twenty twenty five. So it's almost up on a year. Yeah. Mike Winson: Okay. Okay. so what what were well let's start with what were the probably look what were the top ones? What were the things that most people talked about that was it was there anything that surprised you near the top? Pallavi Bugga: Well, so the American People's Compact is actually arranged in terms of favorability across the aisle. And so the order in which the at least on the website, the order in which the items are presented is in terms of which things are more favorable. And I think I was surprised by how much agreement we saw around some of the items. So one of the questions that we asked in our poll, which I think was really interesting, is if a political party candidate a candidate, sorry, identifying from political party X were to adopt this. Mike Winson: Okay. Okay. Pallavi Bugga: policy item as their platform, how much would it increase approval of that political party? And we saw an increase for some of these items of 17%, which I think is really, really high relative to you know other comparators that we've seen being around like three to six percent. And I think that shows that when you actually adopt these sort of policies, people are willing to actually engage with them and maybe put candidate in front of party. Mike Winson: Mm. Pallavi Bugga: The things that were most highest pulling would be things like education. That was something that uniformly got a ton, a ton of support across the aisle. things that I think got less support were things like immigration, which yes, I agree is like a very partisan issue. And I think it continues to be something that both sides agree or both sides struggle to agree on. But even within that, there are still certain items that we could sort of coalesce behind. And so I think sort of seeing how much commonality there was, including amongst s individual disparate policy solutions within each polity area policy area was really interesting. Mike Winson: The the division that we are experiencing, especially on things such as immigration and and even sometimes education, which is still wild to me that there's there is a division that we see at times, at least when it comes to education. what how do you foresee using what what you guys are doing in order to to effectuate a kind of conversation that could that could potentially bring a bring about a unity that we need if we actually want to fix any of these problems. Pallavi Bugga: Yeah, that's a good question. So I think we see we see this from a multifold approach. So the first part would sort of be on a grassroots level. And I think this really goes back to the electability question you asked me previously. I think for a lot of people when thinking about what sort of candidate to support, they frame electability in terms of, well, would the other would would a person from another party or would someone who's moderate or not quite so far left as I still resonate with this sort of policy platform? And I think Mike Winson: Mm-hmm. Pallavi Bugga: Actually providing the data to people that look, you're in support of this and people across the aisle are also in support of this sort of changes how they view electability and makes them more inclined to feel like they can actually vote for the things that they want because other people want the same thing. So sort of reaffirming for people that there is broad agreement on the items that they would have otherwise wanted to vote for had there not been this broader electability concern is helpful just from like a purely narrative perspective. The second thing that we're trying to do is we're trying to do a top-down approach. And that's one of the things that we've sort of we're hoping to effectuate through the American People's Compact Candidate Pledge by purposefully endorsing, supporting, choosing candidates who are willing to put these policy items first and actually effectuate these policy items and make them into law. We're sort of forcing the narrative in that direction because if these people get elected and if they actually do the things that they are elected to do, which is to make these policy changes, then we're going to be requiring. necessarily people to have conversations on these policy items because that's what these candidates are going to be doing. And the third thing that we're trying to do is coalition building. So we have started to partner with organizations within the space and we're hoping to sort of broaden the scope of this organizational space to build a broader coalition movement where we could just have conversations and more narratives and social media and all of the above around these specific policy items. And that's something that we started to do very, very early on. It's still in a nascent stage at the moment, but we're hoping to build that up and gain momentum as we move into the next election so that these issues will have more visibility and more of a public forefront for people who at least are somewhat engaged with with these organizations or politics more generally. Mike Winson: Yeah. Trust is something that that is in very short supply in American politics, especially right now. You've got a group of candidates, as I was telling you before, many of whom I've actually gotten to interview on this platform, which is awesome. Some amazing people on there. ⁓ I think this administration has caused a lot of people. Pallavi Bugga: Yeah. Yeah. Small roads, they're battle. Yes. Mike Winson: to distrust the word of a politician. ⁓ whether it's a politician that says they're only gonna run two terms and they're still in office, or they say they're gonna, as this administration specifically has done, said they're gonna do a bunch of things and have done none of them. Pallavi Bugga: Yeah. Mike Winson: What kind of what kind of or is there any level of oversight on your compact to like these people all took this pledge? What what what happens after that? Are they just on there and they on your list and then everyone's hunky dory? What what does that look like? Pallavi Bugga: Yeah, ⁓ the way in which we are envisioning this is we would track the legislative history and the voting behavior and also just public comments of all the candidates who have taken our pledge and we would post that on our website. That way people can actually see how APC candidates are behaving once they're elected. And I have no doubt that the candidates who eventually do get elected will for sure be pushing forth and advancing the priorities of the APC, but The point of doing that is to increase transparency and accountability. As soon as someone starts voting in a way that betrays a lack of support for a majority of the ABC policy items, then they would no longer be an ABC candidate. And that is something that we would then post on our website. So really the goal of this is to, as I mentioned before, support the candidate, but also be a signal for the public. And so we're hoping that by doing this latter half accountability process, once electeds are actually taking office and you know, engaging in legislation, we can make sure that what they said that they will do is actually what they do end up doing once they're put into office. Mike Winson: Doing what you gu you and your husband have done is something that a lot of people can't even imagine doing. What is something that surprised you most about the process of putting together this from the beginning up till this point? Pallavi Bugga: I think what surprised me the most is the fact that no one really knows how to do it, if that makes sense. Like everyone is doing it well, right? But you sort of, for me at least, I'm very much the type of person of like, no, there's no way we could do this. I'm sure someone has already figured this out. And my husband is more of the go-getter. Like, let's just try, let's see what happens. And as we sort of moved through this process, what we've seen is Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: No one started this process knowing exactly how to do it. It's not like they have like a PhD and like nonprofit organizing Mike Winson: There's no YouTube there's no YouTube video for starting a starting a a potential p pack. Pallavi Bugga: Right, right. And there's like, I mean, sure, you could like there's people who have obviously like been involved in community organizing spaces who I'm sure would have much more invaluable expertise that could lend itself to this process, but I don't think that should be the thing that stops you from wanting to make a change. If people such as my husband and I, who didn't have any background necessarily in community organizing and nonprofit organizing, can do this, then anyone should be able to do this. And the path sort of opens up on its own. As you start having conversations with people, I think there's like very much a six degrees of connectivity at play here where you talk to one person, they're like, I know all of these people. And then you sort of broaden your network and slowly it starts building itself out. That was one thing that was really surprising to me. But the second thing I will say is also, I think we were really nervous about this candidate pledge process because we were like, What candidate will want to actually take this pledge? Will there be people who are willing to actually engage with this platform? Mike Winson: Mm. Pallavi Bugga: And there's a lot of people out there who really, really want to just adopt a people first policy and really want to make sure that they're representing the people in a way that is faithful to the issues that matter most. And these people are totally willing to support you. And they're not, they're not cagey at all about their platform. They're completely transparent. And I think I've been so heartened to see how many people have sort of stepped out of their own comfort zones, out of their own prior careers. to run for office and actually effectuate a lot of the things that are in the APC just independently of us, completely as a their own platform. And they're doing it from step one. And some people have started from zero, have raided tons of money, have huge, huge volunteering groups that have supported them. And it's a very, very friendly environment and they have supported us. We try to support them. So it's a very nice playing field. No one really comes in knowing all the answers as to how to do it. And people are inevitably so helpful in sort of connecting you to others who could just sort of guide you in this process. So I was I was sort of taken aback by how we've been able to come as far as we have been able to come. It's mostly due to, you know, all the help and support we've received from this broader community. Mike Winson: Yeah. ⁓ when you were talking about how your husband's the real go-getter in in my family, I'm kind of like that too, in the sense of I'm the one who kind of thinks of the ideas are is it is just strikes me just from having talked to you now for for a little bit, is he the one who said, We need to do this? And yours was and your brain went, Okay, like you're the one who actually went, how do we make this happen? Pallavi Bugga: That is that is in part how No, totally not. Mike Winson: Not that he wouldn't help make it happen, but but his brain doesn't go, how do we actually make it work? Pallavi Bugga: I do like to say that he often has like the big picture vision and he is great with the technical details too. But my brain feels more comfortable sort of being in the like, okay, well, how do we actually make this work? Yeah, what are the weeds? What are the steps? Exactly. What do we need to do? ⁓ though he, I mean, he obviously engages with that to such a high degree as well, but that is a little bit reminiscent of how the thought process works for us. And I find it more comforting to be honest, because the idea of just starting this huge de novo project. Mike Winson: The weeds. Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: is sort of anxiety inducing for me. For him it's exciting. For me I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, like I have no idea how to do this on top of like two full time jobs and a family. But, you know, we're here now. We're now Mike Winson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're here now. You made it. ⁓ for anyone that wants to support you or learn more about the ⁓ American People's Compact, ⁓ where can they find you? Pallavi Bugga: So I think the first place to start is our website, American PeoplesCompact.org. ⁓ we are always looking for people who are interested in volunteering. We could use a lot of support as we talk to candidates, as we work with organizations, build out a grassroots presence. If people are interested in volunteering, there's a contact form on our website and we would encourage people to reach out. ⁓ as with any nonprofit, we always appreciate donations. We have Mike Winson: Yeah. Pallavi Bugga: been largely self-funded and we're hoping to sort of broaden our fundraising a little bit. But any donations people are willing to make, we would be super grateful for. And if you have any sort of candidates or organizations or events that are happening near you and you want us to get involved, just reach out via a contact us form on the website and we're happy to coordinate something. Mike Winson: Plavi, thank you so much for sitting down with us and letting us get to know about you and ⁓ your organization. I really do appreciate it. Pallavi Bugga: ⁓ my gosh, thank you, Mike. And I so appreciate you making the time to have us on. This has been wonderful. And I I think this is an excellent platform. So thank you for putting this all together and for all your work in the space. Mike Winson: Thank you. Thank you. ⁓ for everyone else that listened and got this far, thank you very much for watching. Please hit all those buttons down below. Like, subscribe, share, comment, all of it. ⁓ it helps make it possible for me to keep doing what I'm doing, which is interviewing amazing people like Pahlavi and and helping have the hard conversations and break the status quo and really push society in a direction where we all can thrive, not just survive. ⁓ Pallavi Bugga: Love that. Mike Winson: So again, thank you everyone for listening. Pallavi, thank you very much for being here. And we'll see you all next time on Breaking the Meta. Bye guys. Pallavi Bugga: Thank you.