Latest / Chief in Tech Deep Dive Shortcast / Chief in Tech S1E35 - Wendy Gonzalez : Changing the World Through AI and Training Data
Transcript
- 0:00I want you to imagine, just for a second, that
- 0:02you are sitting in the passenger seat of a brand
- 0:04new self -driving car. OK, I'm picturing it.
- 0:07Right. And you are cruising up to a busy, completely
- 0:10chaotic city intersection. You've got... Pedestrians
- 0:15stepping off the curb while looking at their
- 0:17phones. You've got a person on a bicycle weaving
- 0:21aggressively through traffic, and the sun is
- 0:23setting, casting these long, weird shadows from
- 0:26the buildings above. Basically a nightmare scenario
- 0:29for any driver. Exactly. Now, the car stops perfectly.
- 0:33It waits for the bike, ignores those confusing
- 0:36shadows, and then smoothly makes the turn. Which
- 0:39is... Pretty incredible. It is. Most of us see
- 0:41that and we just think, wow, technology is basically
- 0:44magic now. But how does that car actually know
- 0:46the difference between a real person, a bicycle
- 0:49and like a dark patch of asphalt? Right. It's
- 0:52definitely not magic. Not at all. Yeah. It's
- 0:54actually the result of a massive, incredibly
- 0:56tedious and entirely hidden human effort. I'm
- 1:00your host, by the way, and I'm thrilled to get
- 1:01into this. And I'm your resident expert for today.
- 1:05We definitely have this illusion that artificial
- 1:07intelligence just spontaneously understands the
- 1:12physical world. Like it just wakes up one day.
- 1:14Yeah, exactly. Like it wakes up on a server farm
- 1:16somewhere, downloads the internet, and suddenly
- 1:19knows what a stop sign looks like in a snowstorm.
- 1:22It's just so funny to think about. But the reality
- 1:24is far more grounded. It's built on a foundation
- 1:28of human labor that is much more intensive than
- 1:32most people ever realize. And that hidden foundation
- 1:35is exactly what we are diving into today. This
- 1:38is our deep dive into the invisible human workforce
- 1:41powering global artificial intelligence. It's
- 1:44a huge topic. It really is. Specifically, we're
- 1:46looking at the world of ethical AI training data.
- 1:49Our source material for this is a fascinating
- 1:51presentation delivered by Wendy Gonzalez. Oh,
- 1:53she's brilliant. She is. She's the acting CEO
- 1:55and president of an organization called Samisource.
- 1:58Right, sometimes referred to as SOO in the materials.
- 2:01Yes, exactly. And she gave this talk at a Women
- 2:04in Tech Network conference. Her mission in this
- 2:07presentation really struck me. We are going to
- 2:10explore how the literal act of teaching an AI
- 2:13to see and think is, simultaneously, being used
- 2:17to lift tens of thousands of people out of extreme
- 2:20poverty. This is a really powerful story. It
- 2:22is. And along the way, we'll see why this model
- 2:24completely upends what we assume about the tech
- 2:27industry's supply chain. Okay, let's unpack this
- 2:30yet to truly grasp the sheer scale of what Wendy
- 2:34Gonzalez is talking about We have to strip AI
- 2:36down to its its fundamental building blocks,
- 2:40right? The absolute basics exactly before we
- 2:42even talk about the people sitting at the computers
- 2:44doing this work We have to look at why this specific
- 2:47type of labor is so Unbelievably valuable to
- 2:50the largest companies on the planet like Google
- 2:52and Walmart, right? We're talking about training
- 2:54data, because you literally can't have artificial
- 2:57intelligence without it. Right. Before a machine
- 2:58can see, hear, or speak, it has to be taught
- 3:01what it's looking at. Yep. And it is taught using
- 3:04labeled data. So going back to our self -driving
- 3:07car at the intersection, it doesn't intuitively
- 3:09know what a pedestrian looks like. Not at all.
- 3:12Someone, an actual human being, had to sit at
- 3:15a screen. look at an image from a street camera,
- 3:18draw a digital box around a person, and tag it
- 3:21like this is a pedestrian. And they had to do
- 3:23that millions and millions of times. From every
- 3:26conceivable angle. Yes. What's fascinating here
- 3:29is that this manual repetition isn't just a small
- 3:31part of the process. It is the single biggest
- 3:33bottleneck in the entire tech industry. Wow.
- 3:36Really? Yeah. Gonzalez points out in her presentation
- 3:39that by 2023, nearly $100 billion was projected
- 3:43to be invested in artificial intelligence. A
- 3:46hundred billion? That's insane. It's massive.
- 3:49But here is the massive catch that most people
- 3:51outside of Silicon Valley completely miss. Eighty
- 3:55percent of the time consumed in most AI and machine
- 3:58learning projects is spent just dealing with
- 4:00this training data. You mean preparing it, cleaning
- 4:03it, labeling it? Exactly. 80%. That statistic
- 4:06is just wild to me. 80 % of the time. It makes
- 4:10me think of training data as basically flashcards
- 4:13for a billion dollar toddler. Oh, yes. That's
- 4:16exactly what it is. I mean, you have this incredibly
- 4:18powerful, super expensive AI system, but it's
- 4:22fundamentally naive. It knows absolutely nothing
- 4:25about the physical world until a human sits down
- 4:27with it and holds up a million flashcards saying,
- 4:30you know, car, tree, road sign. It really is
- 4:33shocking when you put it like that. It is. It's
- 4:35honestly shocking that the most cutting edge
- 4:37technology in human history is entirely dependent
- 4:40on manual human repetition. A billion -dollar
- 4:44toggler is the perfect way to look at it because
- 4:46the algorithms themselves, the brilliant complex
- 4:49math that the engineers write, they are functionally
- 4:52useless without the ground truth provided by
- 4:55that human labeling. Ah, ground truth. Yeah.
- 4:57If the data is bad, if the human incorrectly
- 5:00labels a pedestrian as a shadow, that $100 billion
- 5:02industry grinds to an absolute halt. The algorithm
- 5:06learns the wrong lesson. Exactly. And then the
- 5:08self -driving car makes a fatal error. Man, it's
- 5:11wild to think that these hundred billion dollar
- 5:14algorithms are entirely at the mercy of whoever's
- 5:17clicking the mouse to draw those boxes. It really
- 5:19puts it into perspective. It does, which makes
- 5:22me wonder how these massive companies actually
- 5:24source that labor. If the tech world has this
- 5:27bottomless, desperate hunger for flawlessly labeled
- 5:31data, who is getting paid to sit there and do
- 5:34it? Well, traditionally, the tech industry has
- 5:36treated data labeling as low level gig work.
- 5:39Outsourcing. Yeah, exactly. It's outsourced to
- 5:42massive click farms where workers are paid like
- 5:44pennies per task with zero job security, right?
- 5:48It's treated as highly expendable temporary labor.
- 5:52But that brings us directly to Sama sources radical
- 5:54philosophy, which completely flips that traditional
- 5:57model on its head. I love this part. Yeah, to
- 5:59understand their approach, you really have to
- 6:01look at their late founder, Leila Janna. She
- 6:04founded the organization in 2008 with one very
- 6:07specific driving ethos. Talent is distributed
- 6:10equally while opportunity is not. Yes, exactly
- 6:12that. That is such a fascinating lens to view
- 6:15the global economy through, because it totally
- 6:18rejects the idea that a lack of wealth equals
- 6:21a lack of capability. It does. Jaina believed
- 6:24that traditional charity wasn't the answer to
- 6:26systemic poverty. Her goal was giving work instead
- 6:29of giving aid. Which is a huge paradigm shift.
- 6:32Right. So Samasource's demographic target for
- 6:35hiring is highly specific and very unusual for
- 6:38a tech company. They intentionally recruit people
- 6:41who are living below the World Bank average poverty
- 6:44line. Wow. And crucially, they require absolutely
- 6:47no prior education, no college degree, and no
- 6:51formal job experience. Which brings us to that
- 6:53incredibly vivid example from the presentation,
- 6:56the story of a man named Ken Kihara. Oh, Ken's
- 6:59story is amazing. It really is. So Ken lived
- 7:01in Mathar, which is one of the largest, most
- 7:03densely populated slums in Kenya. And Gonzalez
- 7:06notes that in Mathar, unemployment for youth
- 7:08and women hovers around 70%. Or even higher,
- 7:11yeah. Right. Now Ken had amazing grades coming
- 7:13out of high school. He clearly had the raw talent.
- 7:16But no opportunity. Exactly. He had absolutely
- 7:18no network, no access to capital, and no way
- 7:21to pay for a college degree. He was entirely
- 7:24locked out of the formal economy. And you know,
- 7:26when someone with that much potential is locked
- 7:28out of the formal economy, they are pushed into
- 7:31incredibly dangerous survival situations. Just
- 7:34to get by. Yes. Because he couldn't find safe
- 7:37formal work, Ken was forced into the informal
- 7:40economy just to feed himself. The presentation
- 7:43details how he became a producer of Chancho.
- 7:45Right, which is a local moonshine. But Gonzales
- 7:48specifies this gritty, terrifying detail about
- 7:51the environment Ken was working in. The jet fuel
- 7:53detail. Yes. She points out a photo during her
- 7:56presentation explaining that the specific batch
- 7:59of Chandra Ken was making was literally brewed
- 8:02with jet fuel. It's hard to even comprehend.
- 8:04Just let that sink in for a second, right? A
- 8:06young guy with top high school grades is pushed
- 8:08into brewing highly toxic combustible moonshine
- 8:11in a slum entirely because he was born in a neighborhood
- 8:14with a 70 % unemployment rate. Yeah. That is
- 8:17exactly where Samasour stepped in, offering him
- 8:19training and his first formal job in data annotation.
- 8:23And it completely changes his trajectory. He
- 8:25goes from mixing toxic chemicals to survive to
- 8:29training the algorithms of Fortune 50 companies.
- 8:32OK, but I want to look at this from Google or
- 8:33Walmart's perspective for a second. Sure. Wait.
- 8:36If companies like Walmart and Google need flawlessly
- 8:39labeled data for critical systems, isn't it a
- 8:42massive risk to hire people with absolutely zero
- 8:45tech background or college degrees? Sounds risky,
- 8:48right? I mean, you are building a multi -billion
- 8:51dollar self -driving car system or a massive
- 8:54global search engine. Are you really going to
- 8:57entrust the foundational safety data, the ground
- 9:00truth of your algorithm, to someone whose last
- 9:02job was brewing jet fuel moonshine in a slum?
- 9:05That is the exact skepticism traditional business
- 9:08leaders throw at this model. I don't guarantee
- 9:10quality. Right, but that skepticism fundamentally
- 9:12misunderstands the genius of what Samisource
- 9:14built. Let's go back to how the traditional tech
- 9:17industry handles this. gig work. Right. The click
- 9:19farms. Exactly. When you treat data labelers
- 9:22as disposable temporary gig workers, they have
- 9:25absolutely no incentive to care about the quality
- 9:27of the data. They just want to get paid. Yeah.
- 9:29They just want to click as fast as possible to
- 9:30make their pennies. The result is incredibly
- 9:33high turnover, burnout, and terrible quality
- 9:37control. Right. If you treat someone like a disposable
- 9:39cog, they are going to give you disposable work.
- 9:42Exactly. Samisource recognize that to get premium
- 9:45data, you actually need stability. So they provide
- 9:49full -time employment, not gig contracts. It's
- 9:52just huge. And they provide living wages that
- 9:55are intentionally calculated to support a family
- 9:58of four. They provide real health benefits. So
- 10:01it's a real career. It is. By taking someone
- 10:04like Ken, who has previously only known economic
- 10:07chaos. and placing him in an environment of profound
- 10:10professional stability, they breed incredible
- 10:13loyalty and focus. That makes total sense. Right.
- 10:15This social mission actually solves the tech
- 10:17world's biggest quality problem. Here's where
- 10:20it gets really interesting. Samasaurs isn't just
- 10:23a charity project that these tech giants tolerate
- 10:25for some good PR. Not at all. Their social impact
- 10:28mission is precisely what gives them their competitive
- 10:30advantage in the marketplace. By treating people
- 10:33as long -term investments rather than short -term
- 10:35expenses, they end up with better, cleaner data
- 10:38than the traditional gig economy tech companies.
- 10:41And the retention numbers completely validate
- 10:43that approach. Gonzalez notes that Samisource
- 10:46boasts industry -leading retention rates. They
- 10:49have less than 10 % annualized attrition. Wait,
- 10:52less than 10 %? Yes. In the tech support and
- 10:55data labeling world, a sub -10 % turnover rate
- 10:58is practically unheard of. I believe it. Because
- 11:02these jobs are so deeply meaningful to the workers,
- 11:05they stay. And because they stay year after year,
- 11:08they transform from absolute beginners into deeply
- 11:11specialized, world -class labeling experts. And
- 11:14the stakes of that acquired expertise are literally
- 11:17life and death. Going back to our self -driving
- 11:18car example, Gazalos points out that an AI must
- 11:21be trained to perfectly distinguish between a
- 11:23motorcycle and a bicycle. Or it must be able
- 11:26to instantly read specific vital road signs while
- 11:29ignoring irrelevant billboards. What they call
- 11:32the last mile of quality. Yes, the last mile
- 11:35of quality. You cannot get that from a burned
- 11:37out gig worker who started yesterday and is rushing
- 11:40to make minimum wage. You need a dedicated expert.
- 11:44And it goes beyond autonomous vehicles, too.
- 11:46Think about the Walmart example she provided.
- 11:48OK. Walmart has the world's largest catalog of
- 11:51products, and that catalog is shifting by the
- 11:53minute. Oh, I'm sure. Millions of items. Millions.
- 11:57Yes. Items being added, removed, changing seasons.
- 12:00If Walmart introduces a new seasonal aisle, the
- 12:03AI might miscategorize a plastic Halloween pumpkin
- 12:07basket as fresh produce. That would be a mess.
- 12:11Right. If their product search algorithms aren't
- 12:14constantly being audited and retrained by human
- 12:16experts who understand nuance, the search function
- 12:19breaks down entirely. And consumers wouldn't
- 12:21be able to find what they're looking for. Which
- 12:23means lost revenue. It requires a highly accurate,
- 12:26ongoing, human -in -the -loop system. Which brings
- 12:29up the reality of how this work is actually done
- 12:31on the ground. During the presentation, she showed
- 12:33a picture of their delivery center in Kampala,
- 12:36Uganda. Oh, that facility is stunning. It really
- 12:38is, and I think this completely shatters the
- 12:40preconceived notions a lot of people might have.
- 12:43This is not some dark, crowded sweatshop. No,
- 12:46definitely not. You walk off a busy street in
- 12:48Kampala and enter a highly secure center with
- 12:51biometric access, top tier technology and facilities
- 12:54built with B Corp certified sustainability. It
- 12:58looks like it belongs in Cupertino. If we connect
- 13:01this to the bigger picture, what we are seeing
- 13:03is that investing heavily in human infrastructure
- 13:06is the prerequisite. for superior machine infrastructure.
- 13:10That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And Gonzalez
- 13:12talks about this concept of machine learning
- 13:15assisted annotation. I'm glad you brought that
- 13:17up, actually, because the phrase machine learning
- 13:19assisted annotation sounds like deep corporate
- 13:21jargon. How does that actually work in practice?
- 13:24It's a fascinating feedback loop, really. The
- 13:27basic idea is that as the software platform gets
- 13:29somewhat smart, it takes over the easy, repetitive
- 13:32parts of the image. Like identifying the sky
- 13:34or the road. Exactly. And this frees up the human
- 13:37experts to handle the highly nuanced, uniquely
- 13:40human edge cases. Give me an example of an edge
- 13:43case. OK, imagine a pedestrian. walking down
- 13:46the street carrying a large, highly reflective
- 13:48mirror. An early AI system might look at that
- 13:52reflection of the street and think, there are
- 13:54two pedestrians here. Or worse, there is a hole
- 13:57in reality. Because it doesn't understand context.
- 14:00It lacks human context. The human expert in Kampala
- 14:04spots that error. draws the correct boundary
- 14:06around the pedestrian in the mirror, and tags
- 14:09it properly. So they aren't just fixing a single
- 14:11photo. No, they are actually codifying their
- 14:14human knowledge into the system. When the expert
- 14:17corrects that mirror reflection, that feedback
- 14:20alters the neural network's weights. Wow. The
- 14:23platform gets smarter over time, specifically
- 14:25because the humans training it are treated as
- 14:28respected experts capable of nuanced judgment
- 14:30rather than just clicking machines. So the technology
- 14:33elevates the human's capabilities and the human's
- 14:36nuanced judgment elevates the technology. Exactly.
- 14:39It's a brilliant synergy. And when you look at
- 14:41the leadership team driving this, it becomes
- 14:43clear that this philosophy of valuing overlooked
- 14:45talent isn't just a happy accident. No, it's
- 14:48very intentional. It is built into the structural
- 14:51DNA of the entire organization. Diversity and
- 14:54inclusion are so often used as like hollow buzzwords
- 14:58in the tech industry, you know, usually just
- 15:00a slide in an HR presentation. Right, checking
- 15:02a box. But at Samisource, it is a structural
- 15:05mandate. They purposefully mandate that 50 %
- 15:08of their hires are women. Which is amazing. And
- 15:11Gonzalez was very explicit in her talk that this
- 15:14isn't just about padding the stats at the entry
- 15:16level data labeling positions. Oh, really? Yeah,
- 15:19this 50 % mandate extends upward through middle
- 15:22management, executive leadership, and all the
- 15:25way to the board of directors. That structural
- 15:27commitment was really put to the test during
- 15:29their 2019 Series A funding round. Yes, that
- 15:32was a pivotal moment. Gonzales shared a story
- 15:34about how she and Leila John were out raising
- 15:36$14 .8 million. And she made a really poignant
- 15:40observation about what it's like to be in those
- 15:42high stakes venture capital meetings. Oh, I remember
- 15:44this part. Yeah. As two minority women executives
- 15:47seeking multimillion dollar funding for a software
- 15:50company, they were very often the only women
- 15:52in the room. That can be an incredibly daunting
- 15:55environment. Especially when pitching a business
- 15:57model that, quite frankly, defies conventional
- 16:01Silicon Valley logic. Right, pitching social
- 16:03impact to traditional VCs. Exactly. Yet they
- 16:06found investors who didn't just passively tolerate
- 16:09their diversity or their social mission, but
- 16:12actively valued it as a business strategy. Which
- 16:14is so rare. It is. They found financial backers
- 16:18who understood their technical AI expertise,
- 16:21but also recognized that their diverse workforce
- 16:24and deeply ethical supply chain were massive
- 16:27strategic assets. It's impossible to talk about
- 16:30that grand vision without acknowledging the deeply
- 16:32tragic part of this story. Yeah, Leila's passing.
- 16:35Leila Janna, the founder who pioneered this entire
- 16:38concept of using a tech business as a direct
- 16:41force for social change, passed away from a rare
- 16:43aggressive cancer in January 2020. It was a huge
- 16:47loss. It really was. But Gonzalez makes it very
- 16:50clear that her legacy, her fundamental DNA, remains
- 16:53entirely embedded in how the company operates
- 16:55today. You see Leila's legacy most clearly when
- 16:58you look at the individual lives that have been
- 17:00transformed by this model. The presentation highlighted
- 17:03another worker named Martha. whose story is just
- 17:06as compelling as Cannes. Right, Martha. Martha
- 17:08is a young woman who was completely locked out
- 17:10of the workforce. She had the drive, but she
- 17:13couldn't get a job simply because of her gender
- 17:16and because she lived in a marginalized slum
- 17:17area. She faced compounding barriers. But then
- 17:20she was recruited by Samisource. And the trajectory
- 17:24of her life didn't just change slowly, it changed
- 17:27dramatically. It did. After joining and earning
- 17:30a stable living wage, she was able to move entirely
- 17:34out of the slums and lease a formal apartment.
- 17:36Which is life -changing on its own. Completely.
- 17:39But the story doesn't stop there. Gonzalez mentioned
- 17:41running into her in Nairobi years later, and
- 17:44Martha had become a leader in an online hospitality
- 17:47company. All right. The training data job wasn't
- 17:50just a temporary gig to pay rent. It was a launch
- 17:53pad into a permanent professional tech career.
- 17:56When you aggregate stories like Martha's and
- 17:58Ken's across over a decade of operations, the
- 18:02overall impact is staggering. Let's hear the
- 18:04numbers. To date, this model has moved over 50
- 18:07,000 people out of extreme poverty. 50 ,000?
- 18:10Yeah. That metric includes over 11 ,000 direct
- 18:14workers, plus all of their immediate dependents
- 18:17whose lives are stabilized by that income. That
- 18:19is just incredible. And perhaps the most impressive
- 18:22metric is their internal tracking. It shows that
- 18:25three years after leaving Samosaurs, former workers
- 18:28are earning on average, four times their previous
- 18:32earnings. Four times. So what does this all mean?
- 18:35When you synthesize Martha's launchpad into hospitality,
- 18:38Ken's escape from the informal economy, and that
- 18:41cutting edge delivery center in Kampala, it forces
- 18:44you to completely rethink what a tech hub actually
- 18:47looks like. It really does. We are so conditioned
- 18:50to think of tech hubs as shiny, sprawling campuses
- 18:53in Silicon Valley with free cafeterias. And ping
- 18:56pong tables. Exactly. But this deep dive suggests
- 18:59that a secure facility in East Africa, filled
- 19:01with brilliant people who were previously ignored
- 19:03by the global economy, is just as vital to the
- 19:06future of technology as any engineering office
- 19:08in California. This raises an important cushion
- 19:11for the broader tech industry, especially as
- 19:13we enter an era dominated by artificial intelligence.
- 19:16Oh, absolutely. Logical leadership cannot just
- 19:19be about writing the fastest algorithm or securing
- 19:21the largest venture capital check. It has to
- 19:24be about leading through action and operational
- 19:26ethics, exactly as Leila Gianna envisioned. Because
- 19:29the proof is right there. Right. If samisores
- 19:32can provide enterprise -grade, flawlessly accurate
- 19:36training data to a quarter of the Fortune 50
- 19:38companies by using a vertically integrated, deeply
- 19:42ethical supply chain, why can't the rest of the
- 19:46industry? That is the million dollar question.
- 19:49It proves definitively that exploiting gig labor
- 19:52is a business choice, not a technological necessity.
- 19:56It really is a choice. And that is what I want
- 19:58you, the listener, to take away from this exploration
- 20:01today. Think about your own daily routines. Yeah,
- 20:04the things we take for granted. Right. The next
- 20:06time you use a major search engine to find a
- 20:08product, or you see a highly targeted recommendation
- 20:11pop up on your feed, or maybe you find yourself
- 20:13riding in a smart, semi -autonomous car. Remember
- 20:17that the machine didn't just figure it out on
- 20:19its own. Exactly. There is a very high probability
- 20:23that a human being, perhaps sitting at a monitor
- 20:26in Kenya or Uganda, carefully and deliberately
- 20:29taught that specific machine how to serve you.
- 20:32It's humbling, really. And in the process of
- 20:34teaching that machine, they fundamentally changed
- 20:37the economic trajectory of their own family.
- 20:39It creates a really profound, invisible connection
- 20:42between the everyday end user and the unseen
- 20:46creator across the globe. It does. And it leaves
- 20:49me with one final thought, something to really
- 20:51chew on that goes even a step further than the
- 20:53presentation. We've established that human beings
- 20:56are the ones acting as the teachers for these
- 20:58incredibly powerful AI systems. Right. Providing
- 21:00the ground truth. Yes, they are the ones defining
- 21:03the ground truth, teaching the AI how to see
- 21:06and understand our chaotic world. The human beings
- 21:08aren't perfectly neutral robots. We all have
- 21:11context. We all have a lens through which we
- 21:13view the world. We do. So how might the unique
- 21:16cultural perspectives, the diverse environments,
- 21:18and the lived experiences of these data experts
- 21:20in East Africa be subtly shaping the global worldview
- 21:24of the AI systems we all rely on? Oh, that's
- 21:27a fascinating point. If the human teacher always
- 21:29leaves a subtle fingerprint on the digital student,
- 21:33What does it mean that the foundational worldview
- 21:36of tomorrow's AI is being shaped by people who
- 21:39understand resilience, community, and resourcefulness
- 21:41in a way that most of Silicon Valley never could?
- 21:44It's a completely different paradigm. It definitely
- 21:46makes you look at that self -driving car at the
- 21:49intersection a whole lot differently.