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How to talk about Puberty without making it awkward? · Inside The Moms Club

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  Speaker 1: Welcome, moms. Welcome to Inside the Mom's Club. I'm your host,
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  Speaker 1: Monica Samuels, and I'm here with my co host, Julie Orchids.
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  Speaker 2: So good to see you.
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  Speaker 3: It's always good to see even though we live in
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  Speaker 3: the same town, we just don't run across each other
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  Speaker 3: that much.
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  Speaker 1: I've been borrowing her driveway because there's a whore I
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  Speaker 1: go to.
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  Speaker 2: So okay, here.
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  Speaker 1: More, but probably next time's here is probably because she's
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  Speaker 1: gonna tell me to move.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, wait, all the time we feel there you go.
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  Speaker 4: I'm good.
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  Speaker 1: It's attention, it's and Alica, thank you so much for you.
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  Speaker 1: We're so thrilled to have you because always a ray
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  Speaker 1: of sunshine here on the Mom's plo have have our moms. No,
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  Speaker 1: we brought you here. We didn't warn you ahead of time. Heavy,
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  Speaker 1: very important and it really is. Okay, we're going to
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  Speaker 1: discuss today.
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  Speaker 2: Let's go, and she's ready.
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  Speaker 1: I'm ready. Sure, talk to ladies first before we bring
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  Speaker 1: our guests down, because let's just be real about what. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: so what we did come on, this is about We're
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  Speaker 1: going to talk about puberty and telling, teaching our kids
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  Speaker 1: and sharing with their kids as they go through that
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  Speaker 1: life experience. That's real.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, it's real.
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  Speaker 1: I mean that for me personally. My parents they gave
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  Speaker 1: me a book and the book was a pictorial I
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  Speaker 1: think it was a picture book. It started with plants
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  Speaker 1: and animals, plan and then it went like it evolved
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  Speaker 1: and I never could quite figure out what all the
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  Speaker 1: connection was. Okay, quite misinformed part of my life. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: And then my children. I have two sons, and I
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  Speaker 1: literally told them nothing, So I'm not sure. I fear
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  Speaker 1: that maybe they're they are still roaming around not understanding
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  Speaker 1: a lot of things that life that they went through.
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  Speaker 1: So that's shameful on my part. But that's why we
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  Speaker 1: have a really great guessery. What about you? What about you? Tila?
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  Speaker 1: Julie tell us about Okay, Okay, I'm in the book
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  Speaker 1: generation too.
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  Speaker 5: I'm in the book Generation.
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  Speaker 2: Find it in the bookshelf.
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  Speaker 6: There you go.
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  Speaker 5: My mom gave me a book and then just said,
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  Speaker 5: if you have any questions, let me know, And of.
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  Speaker 1: Course did you of course I have questions?
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  Speaker 5: But did I ask zoom? Absolutely not.
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  Speaker 1: These are conversations that neither party seems to really want
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  Speaker 1: to happen. They're going to ask the guests. How we
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  Speaker 1: change that.
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  Speaker 3: I don't have any big, you know, recollection, except for
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  Speaker 3: the fact that maybe here's a book and you would
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  Speaker 3: look at it and you're like, hmm, I don't know
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  Speaker 3: what that's all about, and just it's so bizarre, Like
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  Speaker 3: I think that it's such a shame. It was such
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  Speaker 3: a taboo subject for so long. I wish I'm sure
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  Speaker 3: my kids wish I would shut up about being so open.
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  Speaker 3: But and then I don't know that I told them
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  Speaker 3: a lot when they were little either, because I mean
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  Speaker 3: that generational thing will play on and on. Heck, my
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  Speaker 3: mom asked me about birth can control in j C.
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  Speaker 3: Penny I have this vivid and I was like, I
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  Speaker 3: got it, thanks, you know what I mean. So it's
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  Speaker 3: just like we never really talked about a lot of things.
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  Speaker 3: And so I'm glad that you know there's an open
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  Speaker 3: door policy at my house.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, I mean I had a similar thing with my daughter.
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  Speaker 5: I wanted us because my mom and I didn't talk.
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  Speaker 5: I wanted to talk to my daughter, I mean really
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  Speaker 5: talk to her almost ad nauseum.
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  Speaker 2: So she's kind of tired of all the talking.
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  Speaker 3: But I know you have boys, we have girls, So
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  Speaker 3: here what I'm trying to lighten the load of girls
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  Speaker 3: feeling like this is like there's shame associated or not
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  Speaker 3: knowing your own body right, And you know, I think
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  Speaker 3: that we should, you know, let's take the spotlight off
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  Speaker 3: of it and learn about it and how parents can
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  Speaker 3: maybe do a little bit better because clearly, well we
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  Speaker 3: need to work on and appres sure.
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  Speaker 1: And I will say, for me, I'm having boys. There
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  Speaker 1: was no open door policy, so I was like, go
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  Speaker 1: talk to your father. Yeah, you know where your father
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  Speaker 1: will deal with this. But that's not the right approach. Really,
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  Speaker 1: I don't think we'll find out. So let's just jump
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  Speaker 1: right into it, because you know what, we are literally
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  Speaker 1: a blank slaid here. Oh well you're not, I mean you, ladies,
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  Speaker 1: I'm a fish out of water. Okay, So let's let's
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  Speaker 1: be educated. Everybody, get your notebooks out.
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  Speaker 6: For sure.
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  Speaker 1: We're out there in the audience, so I want you
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  Speaker 1: to get informed.
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  Speaker 6: Too, Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Our guest today is a professor at Columbia University Millman
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  Speaker 1: School of Public Health, and in twenty ten she founded
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  Speaker 1: Grow to Know. She's the author of A Girl's Guide
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  Speaker 1: to Puberty and Periods, and her new book is Bigger Faster, Stronger, harrier,
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  Speaker 1: A book for boys. Please welcome, doctor Marnie Summer. Welcome
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  Speaker 1: to the Mon's Club, Doctor Summer.
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  Speaker 6: Thank you. It's really really wonderful to be here, and
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  Speaker 6: I really enjoyed hearing the opening commentary and memories that
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  Speaker 6: you shared.
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  Speaker 1: Was that what you learned from your research that everybody
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  Speaker 1: about our age like learned, knew nothing, and it's amazing.
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  Speaker 1: We even had other we had children are like this.
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  Speaker 6: But the thing is, I'm not sure it's changed that much.
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  Speaker 6: So that's why I think it's I mean, it's changed
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  Speaker 6: and it hasn't changed. We can talk about that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, how is it?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, tell us how it's changed in a positive way,
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  Speaker 1: let's start a positive well.
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  Speaker 6: I think the most positive way in which it has
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  Speaker 6: changed is there's a podcast with moms talking about it. Yes,
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  Speaker 6: there visibility, normalizing, putting it out there, helping people to
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  Speaker 6: feel more comfortable. So I think that's sort of I
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  Speaker 6: don't know, would that have happened when we were all
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  Speaker 6: growing up. I'm not sure. So I think that in
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  Speaker 6: itself is a fantastic sort of symbol of all that
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  Speaker 6: has changed. I think there's some differences in terms of
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  Speaker 6: girls and boys young people in how you might see
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  Speaker 6: that it's changed. When I started doing research on the
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  Speaker 6: topic of menstruation and puberty with girls, which is who
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  Speaker 6: I started with about twenty years ago, there was relative silence.
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  Speaker 6: You know, you learned about it in school, maybe maybe not.
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  Speaker 6: It wasn't in the media. People weren't talking about it. Caregivers,
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  Speaker 6: parents probably uncomfortable. I think in some ways that has
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  Speaker 6: changed today. It's got a lot of coverage. I mean
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  Speaker 6: just now, literally before this before joining you, I got
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  Speaker 6: an email, as I do about once a week from
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  Speaker 6: a high school student with a new project to address
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  Speaker 6: period poverty or menster products in schools, or wanting to
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  Speaker 6: develop some kind of education for their schoolmates. So just
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  Speaker 6: it's kind of become part of the conversations people are having,
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  Speaker 6: and you see really a lot of energized young people
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  Speaker 6: wanting to do stuff for their fellow students. I don't
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  Speaker 6: think it means it's universally out there, and I think
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  Speaker 6: we still have a huge gap in adequate education around
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  Speaker 6: this issue in schools. Don't it all on parents? I
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  Speaker 6: think schools could be doing a better job. I think
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  Speaker 6: after school groups, I think there's all different ways we
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  Speaker 6: can be reaching on people, pediatricians, doctors. I don't think
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  Speaker 6: again it's all a parent burden or mom burden. We're
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  Speaker 6: dad burden. But I think with girls, it's definitely become
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  Speaker 6: a little more acceptable and common to talk about it
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  Speaker 6: and to acknowledge it's something we should be doing a
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  Speaker 6: better job on. It was really interesting when I started
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  Speaker 6: to add to my work with girls and look at boys. Again,
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  Speaker 6: I do work globally, but when I looked at the
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  Speaker 6: issue in the US, one of the things I love
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  Speaker 6: about doing global and US work is the universality of
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  Speaker 6: what I hear. So for example, when I started doing
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  Speaker 6: research with girls and boys overseas, I would hear from
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  Speaker 6: parents in Africa and Asia, I don't know what happens
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  Speaker 6: to my child. They were so sweet, and then one
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  Speaker 6: day something changed, you know, and I'm like, oh, that's
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  Speaker 6: the same in every country I've ever been, and people
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  Speaker 6: are puzzled about what happens to their children. But one
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  Speaker 6: of the things with boys that I have found conser
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  Speaker 6: distantly overseas and here in the US, which I don't
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  Speaker 6: think we've done a great job of changing it, is
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  Speaker 6: this silence, is this suggestion that boys can figure it
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  Speaker 6: out for themselves. We don't really need someone to talk
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  Speaker 6: to them, and maybe it's not very manly for them
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  Speaker 6: to have a conversation around it, or for anyone to
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  Speaker 6: have that. So a lot of I think boys grow
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  Speaker 6: up thinking it's awkward, they don't know who to talk to.
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  Speaker 6: They go to the internet. Now the information maybe, well
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  Speaker 6: that's different. There's so much out on the internet, better
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  Speaker 6: and for worse. So I think we still have a
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  Speaker 6: ways to go in normalizing that boys are just as
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  Speaker 6: worthy and important of having these guiding conversations as we've
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  Speaker 6: started to be about girls. So I think positively we're
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  Speaker 6: seeing change, but we still have a ways to go.
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  Speaker 3: Do you think that they're starting earlier parents, I mean schools, whatever,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, because we did. I did not
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  Speaker 3: hear about this early. Yeah, no, you know, Yeah, that's
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  Speaker 3: my question.
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  Speaker 2: I'm curious.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a great question. It's interesting because we so
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  Speaker 6: the basis of our books, and we have two books.
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  Speaker 6: We show us two boys book and our girls book.
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  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, it's still a book, but it's really funny, colorful,
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  Speaker 6: and it has nothing to do with plants.
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  Speaker 1: It has it's because that's so confusing. I just want
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  Speaker 1: to let you know that does not help.
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  Speaker 6: That was yeah.
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  Speaker 1: No.
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  Speaker 6: The way we develop our books is really based in
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  Speaker 6: the participatory research we call it, that we do with
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  Speaker 6: young people. So we go to young people, we say, right,
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  Speaker 6: stories about your experience. What was it like getting your
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  Speaker 6: first wet dream, what was it like getting your first period?
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  Speaker 6: What's your what happened, what did you do? What's your
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  Speaker 6: advice for another young person who's coming behind you. So
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  Speaker 6: the books are full of young people's experiences, and we've
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  Speaker 6: got a lot of them. I can talk about them
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  Speaker 6: and then also their advice to younger kids. And we
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  Speaker 6: also ask them to give us their questions, which we
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  Speaker 6: then put into the book, the myths that they hear,
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  Speaker 6: the misinformation, and so the books are very we like
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  Speaker 6: to say they're by kids for kids, even though they're
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  Speaker 6: factually and health wise, you know, it's all very kind
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  Speaker 6: of rigorous making sure they have the right information. So
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  Speaker 6: in terms of that great question about younger the reason
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  Speaker 6: that strikes me is I was reading one of the
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  Speaker 6: articles that we're writing up from our research today, and
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  Speaker 6: we make the point that people still, I think particularly schools,
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  Speaker 6: not all, but many are starting a bit too late.
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  Speaker 6: I think there's you know, puberty, all the hormonal change.
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  Speaker 6: Some of it's not super visible at the beginning. I
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  Speaker 6: mean parents might notice because their kid starts to act
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  Speaker 6: a little different at home. But the visible changes, obviously
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  Speaker 6: for boys, they happen a little bit later for girls.
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  Speaker 6: Boys generally maybe nine or ten up to fourteen, girls
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  Speaker 6: a little bit younger. As we know from your eight
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  Speaker 6: year old experience eight up till the same thirteen or fourteen.
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  Speaker 6: And that's just average, right, It can go later. So
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  Speaker 6: I think we're puberty has particularly for girls, age of
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  Speaker 6: period has dropped a little onset of some of the
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  Speaker 6: signs have become earlier. But I don't know that we've
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  Speaker 6: caught up in terms of parents feeling comfortable talking about
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  Speaker 6: it in schools or after school centers or wherever else
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  Speaker 6: people learn this stuff. Have quite caught up with knowing
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  Speaker 6: when to target it. It's really elementary school. But I
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  Speaker 6: think when you say elementary school, people get nervous because
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  Speaker 6: they think, what are you teaching our kids in elementary school?
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  Speaker 6: Are you going to teach them stuff we don't want
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  Speaker 6: them to know? And so what we really try to
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  Speaker 6: emphasize is this is just body change. It's early. It's
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  Speaker 6: all the confusing physical changes. They don't know what's going on.
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  Speaker 6: I mean, you became a woman, but not everybody knows
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  Speaker 6: that at age eight. It's the emotional changes that are happening.
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  Speaker 6: They don't understand why they're bursting into tears all of
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  Speaker 6: a sudden when they didn't before. It's so I think
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  Speaker 6: starting in elementary, late elementary, mid to late, but you know,
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  Speaker 6: doing it at the pace that makes sense for the kids.
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  Speaker 6: So I don't I think some that was too long
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  Speaker 6: an answer. I think some folks so they need to
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  Speaker 6: start a little earlier. I don't think we're quite there yet,
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  Speaker 6: and people realizing that.
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  Speaker 1: How do you so, as a mom had not work
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  Speaker 1: talking to moms out there, as a mom of boys,
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  Speaker 1: do you recommend initiating that with them somehow that conversation
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  Speaker 1: or because I can tell you my sons would have
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  Speaker 1: told me I don't want to talk about that, like
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  Speaker 1: her that just not. They wouldn't have connected, no matter
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: they might have been found that pushy and like, I
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  Speaker 1: can't believe you're saying asking me or whatever, but is
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  Speaker 1: there a healthy good? What do you recommend or do
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  Speaker 1: you just like I said like, well, talk to your father.
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  Speaker 1: If you have a question, you can get to go
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: talk to him.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's crazy to talk to your father.
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  Speaker 6: If your father's going to talk to you, I'm not
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  Speaker 6: sure you.
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  Speaker 1: Know that's true. When so, yeah.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's a great question. I'll tell you
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  Speaker 6: one quick, funny story that I heard about, and then
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  Speaker 6: I'll tell you what I think. You know, when I
• 12:54
  Speaker 6: was working on the Girl's American Girls book and I
• 12:57
  Speaker 6: saw some when to see some friends, and the husband
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  Speaker 6: is a end of mine. He's telling his wife about
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: the work that I do and these books I work on,
• 13:03
  Speaker 6: she said. And their kids were in college at this point.
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  Speaker 6: She said, you know, I just have to tell you.
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  Speaker 6: When my son turned eleven or whatever age I put,
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  Speaker 6: I gave him a puberty book of some sort, and
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  Speaker 6: he threw it across the room at me, and that
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  Speaker 6: was the end of the exchange. So, but I think
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  Speaker 6: it's such a perfect story. They're great parents of how
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  Speaker 6: awkward and uncomfortable it makes everybody. And so and also,
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  Speaker 6: what I was remembering earlier today from our research was
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  Speaker 6: some of the boys shared with us. You know, in
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  Speaker 6: a lot of schools, the puberty education if you call
• 13:35
  Speaker 6: it that, because we don't even really know. It's not documented. Well,
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  Speaker 6: what goes on in schools, there's broadly sex said, But
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  Speaker 6: we don't want sex said. We want puberty at that
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  Speaker 6: like early adolescent stuff. Is that the phiz ed teachers,
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  Speaker 6: you know, they often have people who are just as
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  Speaker 6: uncomfortable talking about it as they are. That models the
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  Speaker 6: discomfort and so they feel more awkward. So even and
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  Speaker 6: one boy even said, even if we're giggling and acting
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  Speaker 6: immature and silly, we do want to know. We're just
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  Speaker 6: acting in the way we're you know, we have to
• 14:03
  Speaker 6: act that way we're boys, But we do actually want
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  Speaker 6: to know. So I don't want to I know. I
• 14:08
  Speaker 6: know there's a conversation at the beginning of this about
• 14:10
  Speaker 6: books and that books are not the answer. But I
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  Speaker 6: do think there is a real value from what a
• 14:15
  Speaker 6: lot of parents have said to me of you bring
• 14:17
  Speaker 6: a book, you leave it out there, you let them,
• 14:21
  Speaker 6: you just put it in the house. It should be
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: a book they find compelling. I hope our books are compelling.
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  Speaker 6: I know there's others out there that are compelling. You
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: let them kind of take a look at it at
• 14:30
  Speaker 6: their own pace. Read it at their own pace, come
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: to you. Maybe you can do a little feeling prepared,
• 14:36
  Speaker 6: you can say, if you have any questions, I'm here,
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: or your dad's here, or your doctor or whoever you know,
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: your older brother, if you think the older brother will
• 14:43
  Speaker 6: give real information and not set that poor younger boy
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  Speaker 6: up for something. So I think the books are to me,
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: they're very valuable communication tools because a lot of my
• 14:53
  Speaker 6: friends with kids this age feel quite as you've all said,
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  Speaker 6: uncomfortable themselves. Not all of you, I know. I know
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  Speaker 6: there may be we're talking or a lot of talking
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  Speaker 6: about it in one house, of which is great, but
• 15:03
  Speaker 6: I think a lot of parents feel uncomfortable, and so
• 15:06
  Speaker 6: it's like a communication tool. And in our book, we
• 15:10
  Speaker 6: have a page in both the Girl's Book and the
• 15:11
  Speaker 6: boys Book that says explicitly to what you brought up.
• 15:14
  Speaker 6: If you have more questions or you're uncertain, talk to
• 15:18
  Speaker 6: a parent, talk to a nurse, talk to a grandparent,
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: talk to your coach, whoever you trust, talk to someone
• 15:24
  Speaker 6: you trust to answer those questions. And so I think
• 15:27
  Speaker 6: the book starts that process and allows them, you know,
• 15:31
  Speaker 6: to then decide who they want to go to. So
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  Speaker 6: I think It's a great way to bring it up.
• 15:36
  Speaker 6: If you have a comfortable relationship and you know the
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: boy is open to you can always offer. If they
• 15:43
  Speaker 6: say no, they no, but no harm in offer.
• 15:45
  Speaker 7: Have that right.
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  Speaker 1: I think a well crafted, good book is a great idea.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I think some of the books that we like, we
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: were describing or we're not gone. So I hats off
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  Speaker 1: to you for writing these books that I right, start
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: that conversation right, And you mentioned the schools, and I
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: know for me, as far as any of that kind
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: of education was in seventh grade health class and it
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: was always taught mine. I'll never forget him. I can
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: still see him. It was taught by this coach. It
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: kind of ruined it forever. I mean, I'm surprised I
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: ever got married and had children after listening to this guy.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was he did not want to talk
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: about it, and he didn't have might even not even
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: have known what he was talking about, to be honest.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: And in the schools at our school, so when our
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: kids got to be at time in seventh and eighth
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: grade at my particular school, they had this retreat that
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: the teachers thought was a great idea. We're gonna go
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: off and we're gonna teach the kids about sex, ad
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: and everything over this retreat. Parents are allowed, parents can't
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: ask a question, parents can't be there. And my son
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: came back from that experience, and I had bought him
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: a pen with a little pen holder, kind of a
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: fancy pen that he had in his locker, and some
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: kid from that experience comes running over his locker, grabs
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: the pen and yells up and down the hall. Jared
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: has a vibrator. I'm like, and I was like, where
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: did this come from? I was not No one was
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: there to hear what they were talking about. So what
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: were these teachers? I mean, I guess that's my parents.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Do get concerned like they are doing? So what is
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: the what should the school be doing? What should be
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: their role being all of this?
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: Do you think, well, I don't know if vibrators should
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: be at the top of the particular.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I have your story, but we have sensor rules on
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the show. I came out of that that retreat that
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: they had at school, So interesting, what you what are
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: your thoughts on what school should be involved?
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: You know?
• 17:45
  Speaker 6: So it's a great question. And I have a friend
• 17:47
  Speaker 6: who has kids in this age group. And he I
• 17:49
  Speaker 6: love because now he sends me like, look what the
• 17:52
  Speaker 6: school's doing, and it sends out a message to the parents,
• 17:55
  Speaker 6: we're going to have puberty education lessons. Let us know
• 17:58
  Speaker 6: if you want to know what we're covering. You know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 6: they make it the parents aren't there, I think because
• 18:03
  Speaker 6: they want the kids to feel comfortable asking questions. Maybe
• 18:05
  Speaker 6: for whatever reason, they feel embarrassed asking in front of parents,
• 18:09
  Speaker 6: but they make the parents part of the process. They're aware,
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: they know about it, they know it's going to be covered.
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: I think they might even host like a parent Knight
• 18:17
  Speaker 6: if they want to talk about it in advance to
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: understand what's going to be covered. So not every school
• 18:21
  Speaker 6: is resourced to do that, but I think it's a
• 18:23
  Speaker 6: really respectful way because I think parents, you want parents
• 18:27
  Speaker 6: to support this education happening, and so you you know,
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: they need to know they're protective obviously understandably of their children.
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: And also it might even include tips for how parents
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: can then follow up and support the child afterwards if
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: they have additional questions. So I think if there are
• 18:43
  Speaker 6: such resources in a school can do it. You know,
• 18:46
  Speaker 6: I think that's a fantastic approach. Not all school maybe
• 18:49
  Speaker 6: is able to do that. I think at a minimum.
• 18:52
  Speaker 6: You know, schools can have puberty books in their library.
• 18:56
  Speaker 6: They can you know, try to weave some of the
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: time topics into the coursework. They can try to make
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: their biology classes, you know, speak a little more authentically
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: about some of the experiences of puberty. I do think
• 19:09
  Speaker 6: a lot of schools across the country are still dependent
• 19:12
  Speaker 6: on phyzet teachers and coaches, and you know, they should
• 19:14
  Speaker 6: make sure that those folks actually feel comfortable. This is
• 19:19
  Speaker 6: a long this is a long way from happening. But
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: I have a degree in nursing, and so we did
• 19:24
  Speaker 6: a little research a couple of years ago to find out,
• 19:26
  Speaker 6: you know, is there a role for school nurses here.
• 19:29
  Speaker 6: They're well versed in the topic, they're well trained, they're comfortable,
• 19:33
  Speaker 6: they're just not in some places they do offer education.
• 19:36
  Speaker 6: But I think in a lot of places there they're
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: much too swamped. You know that there's just not enough
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: of them to go around. But that could be an
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: interesting avenue for the future. One thing, the last thing
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: I'd say that would be really helpful is when we've tried,
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: not just me, but other colleagues in the US have
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: tried to understand what is being covered in each state,
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: in each district, you know, on menstrual health issues, because
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: that was like the I work in, and now puberty education,
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: which I've also worked in parallel. It's really hard to
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: figure it out. You know, states have legislation around sex
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: ed mandated, not mandated. Maybe they have puberty ed that
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: they say you can opt out of. I don't want
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: any parent to feel they have to opt out of
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: their kid getting puberty ed, but they need to feel
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: comfortable with what it is. So I think if we
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: just had better clarity, I say, just nothing is that easy.
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: I mean, I know it's complicated, but if there was clarity,
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: if there was sort of a mandated puberty education to
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: your point, late elementary, here are the contents that you know,
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: here are the key issues that will get covered and
• 20:35
  Speaker 6: not covered later. They can get sexed or they can
• 20:38
  Speaker 6: get whatever that school, district or state feels comfortable. I mean, frankly,
• 20:42
  Speaker 6: I think it'd be nice if it was federally mandated
• 20:44
  Speaker 6: and then we just knew every kid in America had
• 20:47
  Speaker 6: basic puberty education, just like they should have basic physical
• 20:51
  Speaker 6: education or nutrition education or all the other things that
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: are preventative and empowering and confidence building and you know,
• 20:57
  Speaker 6: all those things. It should just I think it should
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: just be foundational. Yeah, so I think, but that's a
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: long game.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, docta summer you makes so much sense, like
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: that could just happen like for night.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I love that.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: And along with all of that too, is body image
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: is such a big thing with kids, and it's so
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: it influences so many things their mental health, right, And
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: so I don't think we talk enough about that. And
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: I noticed you've talked a lot about that. We think
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: a lot about girls and body image. But I know
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: from having sons that is a thing with the boys too,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: and I know you cover that in your book. Can
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: you address a little bit about what's going on there.
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. I was
• 21:40
  Speaker 6: thinking early today I want to make sure it comes up,
• 21:42
  Speaker 6: but I hadn't thought how to bring it up myself.
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: So this was a really maybe not surprising to moms
• 21:48
  Speaker 6: of boys, obviously a really interesting and I think super
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: important finding of our research, which is exactly what you said.
• 21:55
  Speaker 6: We talk a lot and worry a lot, as we
• 21:57
  Speaker 6: should about girls' body image issues. It's obviously your real
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: challenge boys. For sure, this came up I think in
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: all three places where we did research across the country
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: around body image, of this sort of universal perspective of
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: what a young man is supposed to look like, slender, muscular,
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: you know, tall. I mean, you can't control a lot
• 22:18
  Speaker 6: of that, particularly not when you're growing up and your
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: body's going through all these changes. And so, you know,
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: what's the beauty. The reason I like the anonymous writing
• 22:27
  Speaker 6: and the anonymous questions that we do in our data
• 22:29
  Speaker 6: collection is because kids, I think, feel quite open to
• 22:32
  Speaker 6: share their worries and their concerns. You know, we're not
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: talking about anything they can't share openly, but they're just
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: not worried they're going to get judged because it's all
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: anonymous writing. And so we heard stories of boys fasting,
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: like kids growing up not eating because they were so
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: obsessed that people called them bad names about being overweight,
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: or they saw on social media how they were supposed
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: to look about, feeling very much lesser than their peers
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: and really suffering to your point, and mental health related
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: issues anxiety around not measuring up to this standard. And
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: so you know, if nothing else comes out of this
• 23:08
  Speaker 6: fantastic podcast. I would love if this message around boys
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: and body image is way under addressed, you, I think,
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: and we really need to support them and help them understand.
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: I mean, it's not that easy, right the media portrayals.
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: It's the same issue as with girls. They're seeing on
• 23:24
  Speaker 6: social media, they're seeing in the movies, they're seeing, you know,
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: all over the place, what they're supposed to look like.
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: But then it also brings up issues of we didn't
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: really get into this in our research, but boys taking
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: steroids because they think they're supposed to have a certain
• 23:39
  Speaker 6: muscular ideal, trying to lift weights or build up their bodies,
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: maybe before their bodies are ready. It's not again not
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: my expertise, but you know, one of the things we
• 23:48
  Speaker 6: put in the Boys Book is different kinds of exercise,
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: from yoga to weightlifting, to basketball to you know. We
• 23:55
  Speaker 6: wanted it to feel like you do whatever's good for
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: you and then talk to somebody about when it's time
• 24:01
  Speaker 6: to start lifting weights. In the pace to use, essentially
• 24:04
  Speaker 6: we use much more simple language. But we want boys
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: to to know that that their muscles will get there,
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: but they'll look different, and that they shouldn't get ahead
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: of where their body is. So fantastic question. I'm glad
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: you brought that up.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought up about boys.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: I have to say, and I'm sure with you doing
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: research and writing this book, is that tell me you
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: are highly disturbed about what.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: The boys go through. I mean that term looks maxing.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: I never knew what it was until recently, and I
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: just thought it was so disturbing on many many levels,
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: mainly mental health for men. I mean, the girls have
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: it every day on Instagram, what to look like, how
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: you know, posing in you know, bathing suits and all
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: of that. I mean, so but to see this with
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: the boys is it was new to me.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: It's I think so dangerous too, because now on the
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Internet they can all these peptides and things like that
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: doesn't ask you how old you are. And I've heard
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: my son and his friends talking about, you know, taking
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: these different things like you don't know what you're taking,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: like what you're putting in your body because you want
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: to look a certain way. And I've been so impressed
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: how boys do care as much as girls about what
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: they look like. And then they tease each other and
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: they I don't know girls do too, but give them
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a heart. Like I loved in your title of your
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: book is hairrier. I cannot tell you that angst of
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: certain boys that I am familiar with about having like
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: hair on your back. I'm like, well okay, I'm like,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: well okay, let's get you know, laser or whatever, and
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: teasing and other little boys being teased about it. So
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: it's you know.
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: The good news, though, is that this conversation is getting bigger.
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: I'm on a plane recently, and you know, I'm watching
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: all that. It was a long flight, and so I'm
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: watching the movies, you know, come in and one of
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: the shorts was about a young man, a teenager, and
• 26:04
  Speaker 5: it was a short. It wasn't long, but the entire
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: focus of the short was how am I going to
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: go to the pool party? I don't want to take
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: off my T shirt. He arrives at the party, he
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: goes to the bathroom, he goes back to the party,
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: he goes back to the bathroom, and I'm sitting there
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: watching this, thinking, this is the exact ankst that girls
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: have been experiencing for years, I mean since the Judy
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: Bloom days. We've been talking about it. Right, But we
• 26:29
  Speaker 5: have not had this conversation for boys. So the good
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: news is that it's coming up. Yeah right, we're talking
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: about it.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Especially when you start using like like peptides, because one
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: of my nieces is an attorney doing primarily FDA work,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and she was saying, oh, yeah, peptides are going to
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: be the next big thing in litigation in ten years
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: because they're so unregulated and they're so potentially harmful, and
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: yet kids younger and younger think that that's not anything
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: to go take something like that.
• 26:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, I mean again, we didn't look at I mean,
• 27:03
  Speaker 6: I've read a lot about them. It's deeply disturbing to me.
• 27:06
  Speaker 6: So you know, fully hear everything you're saying and the link,
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: but I want to maybe, if it's okay, just go
• 27:11
  Speaker 6: back to your point about the link to mental health
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: because something that it's not my expertise, but something I
• 27:16
  Speaker 6: found really fascinating is the way we develop these books
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: is we you know, we capture kid stories, we have
• 27:22
  Speaker 6: a wonderful illustrator, we put the factual content in, and
• 27:25
  Speaker 6: then we content test them with the target age group,
• 27:28
  Speaker 6: which you know takes time but is immeasurably valuable because
• 27:31
  Speaker 6: they tell us, no, I don't like this illustration or
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: you've got that fact wrong. I would never say it
• 27:36
  Speaker 6: that way. So it's really important to us to content
• 27:38
  Speaker 6: test it. And also are we missing anything or do
• 27:40
  Speaker 6: we have too much of anything in the book. And
• 27:43
  Speaker 6: when I spent last summer content and testing the Boys book,
• 27:46
  Speaker 6: we had I think two pages that covered emotions. One
• 27:50
  Speaker 6: was like the four different emotions you might feel, sad
• 27:54
  Speaker 6: and sad, anxious, I don't remember what they were. And
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: then there was one page that was all that anger,
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: and I know from research boys and anger, you know,
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: the most acceptable emotion, the only acceptable emotion boys are,
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: you know, sort of think they're allowed to show. I
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: would say at least half of the boys that I
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: content tested the book with, when they got to the
• 28:14
  Speaker 6: anger page, they said, and the other emotion page, this
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: is really important. Can you put more of this stuff
• 28:20
  Speaker 6: in the book. And so we went back and added,
• 28:23
  Speaker 6: I don't know, two more pages, three more pages on emotions,
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: on the different emotions, on how to manage your emotions,
• 28:29
  Speaker 6: whether you know, whether it's activities you can go for
• 28:31
  Speaker 6: a walk, hang out with a friend, talk to somebody,
• 28:34
  Speaker 6: or if you're in the classroom and you can't go
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: anywhere and someone makes you feel bad or you know,
• 28:38
  Speaker 6: you're stuck in school. Some of these, like breathing exercises,
• 28:42
  Speaker 6: we consulted as psychologists. You know, what would you recommend?
• 28:45
  Speaker 6: And I was to your point way back in the beginning,
• 28:47
  Speaker 6: what has changed? Positively? I don't know that you know
• 28:53
  Speaker 6: twenty years ago that any boys would have pointed to
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: the anger and Emotions page and said, can you put
• 28:58
  Speaker 6: more of this content in the book? And that was
• 29:00
  Speaker 6: such a positive thing to me. Obviously I didn't test
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: this with every child in America, and it's not the
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: peptide issue, but it is get to all that angst
• 29:09
  Speaker 6: and anxiety and the pressures that they're feeling and the
• 29:13
  Speaker 6: dynamics between them. So that was really positive.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: But how brilliant about your book the way that you've
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: done the research and meet the content testing and all
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: of that, because it's really coming from the kids, and
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: you know that's important.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: That is so good, So good well, doctor Summer. We
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: had a million questions.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Are we still do?
• 29:33
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: We share our time with our zoomer mobs, So welcome
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: zoomer moms, Welcome to your club. Hi ladies, I'm going
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: to introduce each one of you. Tell us your name,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: where you're from, a little bit about yourself, and do
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you have a question for Doctor Summer. Kim, welcome to
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: the Mom's Club.
• 29:50
  Speaker 8: You must have heard me in my brain this whole time.
• 29:53
  Speaker 8: I wish I was going first. I hope I'm going first.
• 29:55
  Speaker 8: My name Kim, Jimmy Peters. I'm born and raised in
• 29:58
  Speaker 8: San Antonio, Texas. B been here in Dallas forever, so
• 30:01
  Speaker 8: you might as well say that I'm kind of Dallas native.
• 30:04
  Speaker 8: I've been here since two thousand. What I find most interesting,
• 30:07
  Speaker 8: Doctor Summer about reading a little bit or doing a
• 30:10
  Speaker 8: little bit of research on you was just the community
• 30:12
  Speaker 8: participatory research. I worked at Parkland Hospital for about two
• 30:16
  Speaker 8: years for their Injury and Prevention Center, and when I
• 30:19
  Speaker 8: started working there, I started to hear buzzwords like community participatory,
• 30:23
  Speaker 8: evidence based research.
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: This was the first go run for me.
• 30:26
  Speaker 8: Although my background is community relations publicist work, I've worked healthcare,
• 30:31
  Speaker 8: I've worked entertainment, and most recently within the finance. I feel,
• 30:36
  Speaker 8: I guess you could say, but I love that you
• 30:39
  Speaker 8: actually took the time to bring everyone together to talk
• 30:43
  Speaker 8: about their feelings and actually involve the community.
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: That was most interesting to me.
• 30:48
  Speaker 8: And I think when we started the conversation and we
• 30:50
  Speaker 8: talked about, oh my goodness, you know, there was one
• 30:53
  Speaker 8: woman that had started puberty at eight, and we started
• 30:56
  Speaker 8: to share different experiences, or I heard everyone sharing different
• 30:59
  Speaker 8: experiences about what puberty looked like and what communication sounded
• 31:04
  Speaker 8: like or a.
• 31:04
  Speaker 6: Lack thereof, for that matter.
• 31:07
  Speaker 8: And I think we're supposed to be just making an introduction,
• 31:09
  Speaker 8: but I do want to let you know that what
• 31:11
  Speaker 8: I would love to talk a little bit more about
• 31:12
  Speaker 8: is how you feel about this past twenty or twenty
• 31:15
  Speaker 8: two years. Do you really think the kids are growing
• 31:19
  Speaker 8: up too fast? You know, we talk about social media,
• 31:22
  Speaker 8: but I think social media and growth and exposure can
• 31:26
  Speaker 8: come in a lot of different forms when it comes
• 31:29
  Speaker 8: specifically to puberty, outside of those things that may be
• 31:32
  Speaker 8: negative or even opening up the communication.
• 31:34
  Speaker 6: Is it a myth or is it a fact you
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: didn't go You're not going easy on me. But it's
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: great to me too, and wonderful, wonderful background, and also
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: nice to hear your question. You know, I think it's
• 31:51
  Speaker 6: an intense world in which to grow up these days.
• 31:54
  Speaker 6: I you know, I'm pretty grateful I didn't grow up
• 31:57
  Speaker 6: with social media. Not to sound terrible, but I'm so
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: glad we read books, we went outside. You know, people
• 32:03
  Speaker 6: could be mean to but it only happened at school,
• 32:06
  Speaker 6: Like you got away from it when you went home,
• 32:09
  Speaker 6: you know. So I think in that sense, I think
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: that's that's hard. You know, that's very hard. And I'm
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: not gonna lean one way or another because I'm not
• 32:18
  Speaker 6: an expert on this, on the move to get bones
• 32:21
  Speaker 6: out of schools and to try and sort of give
• 32:23
  Speaker 6: kids a break from some of that, but I do
• 32:26
  Speaker 6: think it's an intense way to grow up right now.
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: And then of course also the age of puberty or
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: some for some people, it's younger than perhaps when some
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: of us were growing up, but not all. I mean,
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: it's a little it's plateaued in some ways in other
• 32:40
  Speaker 6: ways that there are some things that are happening younger.
• 32:42
  Speaker 6: So I think to flip it, what you all are
• 32:47
  Speaker 6: likely doing and trying to do, is, you know, how
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: can moms and families and schools help kids to adjust
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: to these changes because social media? You know, how can
• 32:57
  Speaker 6: we try to control the social media and take a
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: look it'll help them understand good and bad information and
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: give them spaces to breathe away from it. I teach
• 33:06
  Speaker 6: graduate students and this spring I banned laptops and phones
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: in my classroom.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Oh and I was so why why, I'm so happy
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: to hear you do that.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah good, I was happier like I.
• 33:21
  Speaker 6: They were looking at me. I enjoyed teaching them more.
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: And then I told them as an experiment and the
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: I mean, obviously they're not little kids, so it's different.
• 33:27
  Speaker 6: But at the end of the cement, the end of
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: the course, I said, you know, what did you think?
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: And to the one of them that like, it was
• 33:33
  Speaker 6: such a delight. Basically we knew we weren't allowed to
• 33:36
  Speaker 6: touch it, so we They even said, I paid more
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: attention to get speakers. I really learned. So it motivated me.
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: And I'm not saying we you know, we're not going
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: to remove phones and computers from our lives. They also
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: have to use them. But I think we can try
• 33:49
  Speaker 6: to cocoon in some ways and give them that space
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: to feel good about their bodies and all the pressures
• 33:56
  Speaker 6: we've been talking about, which not easy, but I think
• 33:58
  Speaker 6: together we can figure out how do it.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: I absolutely commend you on that practice in your class.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Because I did a fellowship program at the University of
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Texas and so I had to take some classes and
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: there was a kid, a kid literally had who sat
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: next to me, a signed seating next to me, and
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: he had his computer open the whole time he was
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: online shopping. And guess what that started making me on
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: lunech watching what she was looking at.
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: It was.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Take it, Rebecca, Welcome to the mom's club. Tell us
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself and do you have a
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: question for doctor Summer.
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: Hey there, it's lovely to be here.
• 34:36
  Speaker 7: I'm actually new to the zoomer Mom community. But what
• 34:40
  Speaker 7: a fantastic conversation. I have an adult son. I'm sitting
• 34:43
  Speaker 7: back thinking, boy, if I had those books in this.
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: Conversation a decade or two ago, that certainly would have helped.
• 34:50
  Speaker 7: But a little bit about myself and then I'll kind
• 34:54
  Speaker 7: of springboard off that last question. So, as mentioned, new
• 34:59
  Speaker 7: to the zoomer Mom community, but not to this concept
• 35:02
  Speaker 7: of outreach and really being strong communicators to our future leaders.
• 35:07
  Speaker 7: I'm based in Chicago, technology and media executive spent years
• 35:11
  Speaker 7: leading teams, building platforms, advocating for women's leadership, and tech Today,
• 35:16
  Speaker 7: I run a media company with a business podcast called
• 35:19
  Speaker 7: The Reboot Chronicles, so uncovering those transformational moments life lessons
• 35:24
  Speaker 7: for founders, CEOs, executive to share to really just inspire
• 35:28
  Speaker 7: greatness upon the future generation. So I think in the
• 35:31
  Speaker 7: spirit of what you're trying to do is create a
• 35:33
  Speaker 7: foundation for that success and courage. Then we try to
• 35:36
  Speaker 7: get them to really excel and what that looks like
• 35:39
  Speaker 7: to be a contributing human right. But as mentioned most
• 35:43
  Speaker 7: importantly a mom to one great kid, and I'm passionate
• 35:46
  Speaker 7: about bringing these expert voices in this shape of your
• 35:50
  Speaker 7: book was really intriguing to me how it's laid out.
• 35:55
  Speaker 7: I think these healthy transitions to adulthood are kind of
• 35:58
  Speaker 7: heavy topics. I hope that's not an insulting term to use,
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: but especially in one dose, that concept of eating you know,
• 36:04
  Speaker 7: the elephant, one bite at a time.
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: So what are those small.
• 36:08
  Speaker 7: Everyday parenting behaviors that we should maybe be instituting, you know, gradually.
• 36:16
  Speaker 7: So it's a more of an accumulative effect versus all
• 36:18
  Speaker 7: of a sudden, there's signs of hair and you know, pubity,
• 36:23
  Speaker 7: and now all of a sudden, we're kind of scratching
• 36:25
  Speaker 7: our not going gosh, we got to jump in with
• 36:27
  Speaker 7: both feet.
• 36:28
  Speaker 6: How do we get there gradually? Yeah, I mean that's again,
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: it's a great question, and there's probably lots of different
• 36:34
  Speaker 6: answers to that question. When you were speaking, you made
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: me think about the book for a reason, and then
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: I'll pivot back, because you know, in my dream world,
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: every kid is a book like this. It doesn't have
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: to be our books at home, because to your good point,
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: it's a lot to take in it once. I think
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: what's best is that it's on the shelf, as they
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: have questioned, maybe they read it once and then it's
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: on the shelf. They go check it every time a
• 36:59
  Speaker 6: new change happens, or they're feeling weird or something. You know,
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: they go through the sections because it does have different sections.
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: You know, maybe when a girl gets it at the beginning,
• 37:08
  Speaker 6: she hasn't had her period, so when she does of
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: her period, she goes and revisits the book to understand
• 37:12
  Speaker 6: or what did other girls feel? What does the product
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: page tell me? You know, stuff like that. For the boys,
• 37:18
  Speaker 6: there's a couple pages on shaving. We don't think nine
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: to fourteen year olds are shaving, but they want to
• 37:24
  Speaker 6: understand it, and then when they get older they can
• 37:26
  Speaker 6: go back. They understand what is, they can feel first
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: in it. They don't have to feel like they don't
• 37:29
  Speaker 6: know what they're talking about if the guys or their
• 37:32
  Speaker 6: friends start talking about it. So I think with that
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: pattern in mind, I think it's you know, it's the
• 37:38
  Speaker 6: small things. You lay the book out there, it starts
• 37:40
  Speaker 6: a conversation. You gently put the deodorant into the bathroom.
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: When they start to move in the direction of starting
• 37:47
  Speaker 6: to smell a little different, you know, it's you know,
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: it's these little small pieces, and then you know, when
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: they come to you, hopefully or not to their father
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: or to a sibling, you can reinforce and go bigger.
• 37:59
  Speaker 6: Or I think they're early exposure. I think something like
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: a book is a really good early exposure along with
• 38:05
  Speaker 6: those small things like, oh, well, when your body starts
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: to change, maybe you tell them that when they're eight
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: you might start to smell a little different. So then
• 38:12
  Speaker 6: when it actually happens, they're not panicked or afraid. It's
• 38:15
  Speaker 6: kind of like girls all over the world. I've heard
• 38:19
  Speaker 6: in every country you've done research, girls see blood, they
• 38:21
  Speaker 6: think they're dying. You know, but then you think, of
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: course they do. They think something's wrong, because up until
• 38:27
  Speaker 6: that happens, you see blood, people freak out, get you
• 38:30
  Speaker 6: a band aid, take you to the hospital. Like of course,
• 38:32
  Speaker 6: it's totally rational, you know. And in this place they've
• 38:35
  Speaker 6: been told is super private, they're not supposed to talk about,
• 38:38
  Speaker 6: you know, so they don't know what to do. I mean,
• 38:40
  Speaker 6: it's very logical to me, which is why it's that
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: to your point, Rebecca, it's that early help them to
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: start to understand. And I have this is just a
• 38:50
  Speaker 6: this kid's a bit precocious, but I have them. One
• 38:52
  Speaker 6: of our funders, their child is quite young, I think,
• 38:56
  Speaker 6: you know, eight or so, and they had to bring
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: their child to a meeting were happening just because they
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: happened to me, and it's not even worth getting into.
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: And they said, you know, I'm so sorry. I said,
• 39:04
  Speaker 6: don't worry. Where this was last summer, we're content testing
• 39:07
  Speaker 6: our puberty book. Any chance we could test it with
• 39:09
  Speaker 6: your eight year olders? Is he too young? And she's like, no, no,
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: I want him to learn this stuff. So he came.
• 39:15
  Speaker 6: He sat with one of my master students who happened
• 39:18
  Speaker 6: to be a puberty educator. It was like a perfect alignment.
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: They only got through one chapter, but you know, he
• 39:25
  Speaker 6: reads a little bit more slowly easy anyway. So then
• 39:28
  Speaker 6: I got this message from her at the end of
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: the day. Oh my gosh. We went to lunch with
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: you know, my child and his grandmother and he couldn't
• 39:35
  Speaker 6: start talking about erections. It was the best, no, so
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: but it was like normalized.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: But that's so good.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: I know I'm laughing, but that is so great, right,
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: poor granny.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: But no, sorry, I don't know.
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: Did I just get like it, should I not have
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: used that word?
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I didn't know. I didn't know what you were going
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: to say, but yeah, anyway, just.
• 40:00
  Speaker 6: It was like a good example. Not every kid's going
• 40:02
  Speaker 6: to want to read it, obviously, not with that, but
• 40:06
  Speaker 6: I thought it was a really wonderful way of it's
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: not threatening to an eight year old yet they're not
• 40:11
  Speaker 6: confused and read yet It's like a very gentle way
• 40:14
  Speaker 6: to help them start to understand it so that when
• 40:16
  Speaker 6: they are ready, you know.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, they are developing a healthy relationship exactly, Mega
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: and the people around that.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: That's and the words you're using the words grand as.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Well, right, Aaron Welcome to the Mom's Club. Tell us
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself, and do you have a
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: question for Doctor Summer.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: Sure. Hello everyone, my name is Aaron Pullan. I live
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: in the Kansas City area on the Kansas Side. For
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: any of the you guys who knows there's k C
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: K and k CMO, I live on the Kansas Side.
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: I am the mom of three. I did such a
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: wonderful job. I spread my kids across eleven years. So
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: I have two adult daughters and I have a seventeen
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: year old son who is finally a rising senior. It
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: seems like it was never coming, so this is bittersweet
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: because he's my last one. But I've been a mom
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: for a long time. I started in Corporate America at Hallmark.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: That's why I live in Kansas City. And I left
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: that job when I started having kids because I really
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: wanted to feel like I was doing more and I.
• 41:22
  Speaker 6: Wanted more flexible schedule with my kids.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: I went back to school got my master's in social work.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: I worked for a community mental health center for approximately
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: ten years on the children's side, and for the last
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: seven years I've been a high school social worker. So
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: I love working with students. I love working with middle
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: school I work with middle school and high school kids
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: who have been long term suspended, so don't always make
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: the best decisions. I think the thing that I think
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: about when I am listening is I know the importance
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: of community. And one of the things that I talked
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: to the students about a lot, it's finding a trusted
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: adult that they can talk to. If they're suspended and
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: they're at my school, then I'm asking them when they
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: go back, I want to make sure that they have
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: somebody that they feel they can go to, so when
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: they're having those those decisions or making having to make
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: hard choices, they have somebody that they can talk to.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: So I love this that this gives you a community
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: for mothers. I think the biggest thing that I would
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: hope is trying to figure out how to reach the
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: under marginalized communities because I've worked with them and I
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: don't think they're unfortunately on this program, but they need
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: the help and they are the ones that I feel
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: that our kids are getting left behind whose parents are
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: busy and don't know and they don't know what they
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: don't know. So I mean, it just it just becomes
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: a cycle and that's the thing I guess I would
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: ask you is trying to figure out how can we
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: reach some of these underserved populations with this information because
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: it's so important.
• 42:56
  Speaker 6: Fantastic question, and you know, I'm so that guy. It's
• 42:59
  Speaker 6: like you all answered these questions for me because you're
• 43:02
  Speaker 6: just touching on all the things that I really wanted
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: to talk about. So the research we did is actually
• 43:07
  Speaker 6: with marginalized, low income boys across America. It was not
• 43:11
  Speaker 6: with the most privileged, it wasn't with high income and
• 43:13
  Speaker 6: that was our intention because we wanted to understand sort
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: of the challenges they face. And we often then collect
• 43:19
  Speaker 6: stories from kids in other states as well that aren't
• 43:21
  Speaker 6: part of the research, so we get a more kind
• 43:23
  Speaker 6: of broad picture. And some of the things we heard
• 43:27
  Speaker 6: about not surprising. A lot of the kids are in
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: after school programs, which have really supportive staff and can
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: be a great way through sports, not all sports, because
• 43:39
  Speaker 6: as we heard, not all boys like sports, so don't
• 43:41
  Speaker 6: make that assumption and if they don't like sports, they
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: get left out. So these after school programs, I think
• 43:46
  Speaker 6: community based organizations are really wonderful site for kids and
• 43:50
  Speaker 6: could be a way for them to learn about puberty
• 43:52
  Speaker 6: and body change and be supported because parents are overworked,
• 43:57
  Speaker 6: maybe don't know, don't have time all those things. Some
• 44:00
  Speaker 6: of the other things we heard about were actually working
• 44:03
  Speaker 6: on a paper, another paper from the study to make
• 44:06
  Speaker 6: this point, which I don't know that it's novel, but
• 44:09
  Speaker 6: I think it's important, is for these kids in the
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: schools that a lot of them are in, there are
• 44:16
  Speaker 6: two real challenges they came up. One a real lack
• 44:19
  Speaker 6: of male role model teachers. There's a predominance of female teachers.
• 44:26
  Speaker 6: Female teachers are wonderful, nothing against female teachers, but they
• 44:30
  Speaker 6: boys expressed a desire for more. And the after school
• 44:35
  Speaker 6: youth groups we talked to the staff observe this that
• 44:37
  Speaker 6: they could use more male role models in the schools
• 44:41
  Speaker 6: to talk to, to chat with some of the boys.
• 44:44
  Speaker 6: And some of these after school staff said, you know,
• 44:46
  Speaker 6: the girls will go huddle with a female teacher, they'll
• 44:49
  Speaker 6: talk about things, they'll get information, and the boys could
• 44:52
  Speaker 6: use more models in school about how to behave, how
• 44:55
  Speaker 6: to take care, how to feel safe, you know, all
• 44:57
  Speaker 6: the kinds of things. So that was sort of one
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: thing that rose to the surface. That's a structural change
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: in our teacher and guidance, counselor staffing. But I think
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: that was a real important point. Another important point, which
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: I'm guessing you're very aware of, and I commend you
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: were working with middle schoolers because there's a lot of
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: hormones going on in that age group, is the school environment.
• 45:17
  Speaker 6: You know something I read. It's maybe sixteen years ago
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: when I did my first research with boys. It was
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: in East Africa, it wasn't in America. And I read
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: a book written by two therapists in America who had
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: worked with boys for thirty years. And the two takeaways
• 45:31
  Speaker 6: that I remember from that book were one this anger
• 45:34
  Speaker 6: is the only acceptable emotion for boys in America in
• 45:37
  Speaker 6: a lot of places, but it's true in the country
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: I did the research in. It's just universal in many ways.
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: That was a takeaway that we, I thought we need
• 45:45
  Speaker 6: to change this. The second one was, and you all
• 45:48
  Speaker 6: will know this as moms, boys can't sit still for
• 45:51
  Speaker 6: the most part. They really need to move. Schools are
• 45:54
  Speaker 6: not well designed for boys energy at those younger ages.
• 45:58
  Speaker 6: Girls are much better. I mean I'm broad generalizing here,
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: but and these schools may not have good you know,
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: we've gotten rid of physical education in a lot of
• 46:06
  Speaker 6: schools or they're urban schools, and they don't have an
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: outlet for running around during the day, they don't get
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: enough breaks, and so then in turn, they get in
• 46:13
  Speaker 6: trouble for misbehaving because they're just full of energy and
• 46:16
  Speaker 6: they're not they're not developing in a way that is
• 46:19
  Speaker 6: sit behind a desk for X number of hours. So
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: again that's a like scheduling change. But I think there
• 46:25
  Speaker 6: are ways in which if we just could modify some
• 46:28
  Speaker 6: of the school environments, bring in more male role models
• 46:31
  Speaker 6: and help boys to feel Again, if boys can read
• 46:34
  Speaker 6: this book, whether it's in groups or alone or in
• 46:36
  Speaker 6: the library, and no, it's okay, not this book, I
• 46:40
  Speaker 6: mean any books, you know, but you know, know that
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: it's okay to feel all these emotions, that they're not weak,
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: that they're not bad, that they're and that they can
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: seek out guidance. I think, you know, if the books
• 46:50
  Speaker 6: were in the libraries, or if there was some kind
• 46:52
  Speaker 6: of you know, boy group or youth group or you know,
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: whatever it is. But anyway, so I think that those
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: are just some ideas. You probably know better than I do, because.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: You're in what is there one book or there's probably
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: not just one book. Can you think of a book
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: that parents can read themselves to find out more about
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: how they can share these things with their children. Is
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: there something that moms out there could take a look
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: at and say, you know, and this will help me
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: have that conversation.
• 47:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll be really honest, I would read our puberty books,
• 47:23
  Speaker 6: which is not to plug. It's not a plug for them.
• 47:25
  Speaker 6: The reason I say that is the kids wrote the
• 47:28
  Speaker 6: stories and the questions and the myths in our books,
• 47:31
  Speaker 6: not us. I wrote the health facts. I didn't write
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: the stories. I didn't write those other sections. We just
• 47:37
  Speaker 6: pick the ones we thought were most made sense and
• 47:39
  Speaker 6: showed a diversity of experiences. And I think for parents
• 47:43
  Speaker 6: to read what has come out of the and the
• 47:46
  Speaker 6: other thing, I shay. We do research with older adolescents.
• 47:49
  Speaker 6: We do research with fifteen to seventeen year olds, and
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: we ask them to write stories about what they went
• 47:54
  Speaker 6: through and their advice for younger kids. So even though
• 47:57
  Speaker 6: the books are targeting nine, ten, eleven, twelve years old's
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: thirteen year olds, it is older adolescens giving us stories,
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: questions and myths for younger adolescents. And so I think
• 48:07
  Speaker 6: if parents read the books and see what adolescents themselves
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: have talked about and written about in terms of an
• 48:14
  Speaker 6: experience that happened to them or the questions they have.
• 48:17
  Speaker 6: I think that and of itself helps to get into
• 48:20
  Speaker 6: the head of what their kid is going through.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Well, this this has all been such great advice. Thank
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: you so much, and thank you Zoomer Moms for your
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: amazing as we say here in the Mom's Club questions,
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: we really appreciate it. You're great. And if you want
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: to be a Zoomer mom out there, just go to
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: our website and you can go to the Zoomer Mom
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: link on our page and apply to be a Zoomer Mom.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: And you like these brilliant women that we had here today,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: you might be able to join us on our show
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: Doctor Summer. Thank you so much for joining us. Remind
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: everybody the names of your books and where we can
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: find them up.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Let's see, I.
• 48:53
  Speaker 6: Will hold them up. Younger Harrier a book for boys.
• 48:59
  Speaker 6: They can either you can either go it's a boys
• 49:03
  Speaker 6: book dot org. It's really easy the U r L
• 49:07
  Speaker 6: or just go to Amazon and look it up and
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: you can order it there. We we it's a non profit,
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: so they're at print cost. We don't there's no profit
• 49:14
  Speaker 6: from the books. And then the other one is A
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: Girl's Guide to Puberty and Periods. Because this book has
• 49:20
  Speaker 6: been out longer, we also have a Spanish version, and
• 49:24
  Speaker 6: we will have a Spanish version of this one. But
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: this just launched two weeks ago. We haven't had time
• 49:28
  Speaker 6: to translate it yet. We do that pretty carefully. So
• 49:31
  Speaker 6: and this one can be founded a Girl's Guide dot
• 49:33
  Speaker 6: org or just go to Amazon and a Girl's Guide
• 49:37
  Speaker 6: to Puberty and Periods. And then this one is just
• 49:39
  Speaker 6: always fun to say, bigger, faster, stronger.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Here you boys, well, great, well, thank you so much
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: for joining us. I think we've all learned a lot,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: a lot.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I think you're happy to have miss Granny out there.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: I oh, I wish the like testing these books on me.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: When you're asking me about, you know, an onion or
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: whatever it was, I would start putting helpful. But thank
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: you so much. Well, we are so excited on the
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Mom's Club to announce we're traveling the country. We're going
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: to do live shows. That's we're all on the planning stage.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: In fact, we have a wonderful sponsor, Woodlock Resort and
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Spa that We've been talking to about having one of
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: our live events, so you definitely want to check that
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: out and check us out on social media. We have
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: a YouTube channel with over seven hundred thousand subscribers. Do
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: you want to be another woman? You just hit that
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: subscribe button if you're watching right now on YouTube. We're
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: also on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. You can't hide from all
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: moms out there. We want to be seen. So thank
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: you all the moms out there, and thank you ladies.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you Lisa for Juee so fun, fun day on
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: the Mom's Club couch with us, and thank you Julie
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: as always, and let's remind our moms out there what
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: our mom This is very important, ladies. Always remember this.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: This is our Mom's Club motto. If you don't laugh sometimes.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: You are going to cry, and you are going to cry.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: So keep laughing out there, ladies, and we're going to
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: see you next time inside the Mountain