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Female Firsts: Amrita Sher-gil · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Welcome to stuff I Never told you production of iHeartRadio,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: and it is time for another edition of Female First,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: which means we are once again joined by the terrific,
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: the astounding Hees.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Welcome, ease, thank you.
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  Speaker 3: I'm happy to be here again.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, we are happy to have you because you are
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: very busy. You're doing a lot of traveling. I was
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: thinking about this every time we talk to you. You
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: sound like you could be a person we're talking about
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: one of these episodes.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: I don't need eco inflation. I'm trying to stay chill here, Annie.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I can't help an ease.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I'm always like what you're cat sitting, where.
• 0:56
  Speaker 5: You're traveling the country amazing.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, are there anything any cool things to stand out
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: you'd like to share with the listeners about what you've
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: been doing where you've been going.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: So I have been.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: I've gone so far to Tennessee and Kentucky, and that
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: was really nice because for a better or for worse,
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: the weather was definitely a little bit unseasonably warm, and
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: so I loved that. Because I am camping out of
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: the car, I have been living out of a rooftop
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  Speaker 4: tent partially, and I've been in homes other times during
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: my travels, but mostly we have our rooftop tent to
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: be able to be able to stay wherever we like
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: to where we camp. And let me think, you know
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  Speaker 4: what I really loved. This is gonna sound this is
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: gonna sound so basic, but I really loved one of
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: the nights that I was in Tennessee and Kentucky and
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: I got to camp by the lake and at night.
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  Speaker 3: You know, so many places in.
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  Speaker 4: This forested area of the country are like there's a
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: lot of arbor, there's a lot of tree coverage, so
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: it's hard to have really beautiful views and be out
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: in places and it not be covered by trees. Unfortunately,
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: it's winter, so there isn't as much foliage right now.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: But you know, when I stay a place and I
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  Speaker 4: get to look up at the stars at night, there's
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  Speaker 4: a little skylight at the top of the tent and
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: I get to just look up at the stars. That
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  Speaker 4: was really lovely And I think I might have talked
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: about it before. Here in the place where we were
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: at there was a planetarium, And no matter what the
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  Speaker 4: program is, I do love going to planetariums, Like it's
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  Speaker 4: just fun to me.
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  Speaker 3: I love it.
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  Speaker 4: I love the focus on the night sky, and so
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: I got to do that. That was a highlight for me.
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: And also West Virginia was a big highlight for me.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: So I haven't spent a lot of time in West Virginia,
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  Speaker 4: and when I did pass through, I would say on
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: my way to other places, I would say that I
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: wanted to stay there for a longer time. And it's
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: just a really gorgeous landscape.
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  Speaker 3: I love.
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  Speaker 4: The water and the mountains, you know, all the foliage
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  Speaker 4: it's in fall. There were some really pretty colors when
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: I was there, and the black.
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  Speaker 3: History that's there.
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  Speaker 4: I really appreciated learning in the area where I was
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: at New River Gorge about the history of black people,
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  Speaker 4: the black churches that were started there, the black communities
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: that were started there, the black miners that were there
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  Speaker 4: in the early nineteen hundreds, and the diversity of miners
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: and people who came there for work in general, although
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  Speaker 4: it was a lot of environmental degradation involved in the
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: work that they were doing. Yeah, I mean, I could
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  Speaker 4: go on forever, y'all, and I'm not going to because
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: we have a whole episode to get to today with
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: another fascinating woman with the they're fascinating history. But you know,
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: I'll be talking about that stuff in other you know ways,
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: in other places if you're interested in hearing about that,
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  Speaker 4: like on social media and stuff. But I really enjoyed
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  Speaker 4: the mix of the beautiful natural landscapes, the history that
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: I get to learn about, and the people, like the
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: people I've been so hospitable in my travels so far.
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  Speaker 4: So yeah, that's that's the short of what I have
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  Speaker 4: been enjoying and been grateful for in this trip thus far.
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  Speaker 2: That's it sounds amazing, And I'm sure we'll do check
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: ins to see what else you've been up to. But
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Smith and I both love stars and planetarium. So you're, yes, in.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: The righting accompany us.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, you're speaking our language. Well you do. You have
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: a very fascinating person you brought to us today, Eves.
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  Speaker 2: Who are we talking about?
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  Speaker 4: Yes, I'm so excited for this episode. So today we're
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: talking about I'm Rita scher Gill and she was the
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  Speaker 4: first Indian to have artistic training in Paris. And I'm
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  Speaker 4: gonna just be honest with you, y'all right up front.
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: I you know, I really wanted to talk about her,
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  Speaker 4: and this is technically a first for her, but to me,
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  Speaker 4: you know, it's a.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Good reason to talk about her.
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  Speaker 4: Even that first, That first seems kind of dubious because
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: a lot of the times with the first, when I'll
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: be going through list and trying to find people, people's
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: first will be centered around like their accomplishments once they
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: went to the West, if they didn't live in Europe
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  Speaker 4: or in the Americas, like they were the first and
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: going to like a Western university. So I try to
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: stay away from things like that. So although this is
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: a technical first for her, she had artistic training in Paris,
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  Speaker 4: it's not like the be all, end all and the
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  Speaker 4: greatest part of her body of work and what she
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: did for art and modern art.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, that's an excellent point, and I'm very glad.
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  Speaker 2: Because a lot of times, you know, people see a
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  Speaker 2: first and I feel like they just move on.
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  Speaker 1: That's just their story.
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  Speaker 2: But this is such a such a great story that
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know, and so I'm always glad when you
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: bring those like here's the first, but here's the whole
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  Speaker 2: of who this person was beyond that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and she was a person, like she was a
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: full person. So Amrita was born in Budafest, Hungary, on
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: January thirtieth, nineteen thirteen. Her father was Umrau Singing Shergil
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  Speaker 4: and he was a sick scholar of Sanskrit and philosophy.
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  Speaker 4: He was also a photographer, so he took a lot
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  Speaker 4: of self portraits. He took portraits of the family. That
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  Speaker 4: was a big part of what he was enthusiastic about.
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  Speaker 4: And I'm Rita's mother was Hungarian and her mother's name
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: was Marie Antoinette Gotusman. Marie Antoinette was part of a
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  Speaker 4: wealthy family. So that's a big part of Amritu's story.
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  Speaker 4: It's a lot of wealth, a lot of stature politicians
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  Speaker 4: in her story, money, homes that have names. You go
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: through somebody's story, you see somebody so homebody. Yeah, we
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: call the home the home because, like you know, we
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: got a little wealth and money.
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  Speaker 3: That we're talking about when the homes start having names
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  Speaker 3: and stories.
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  Speaker 4: So she traveled all over the world. You'll see that
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: wealth and people of stature and importance being a part
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  Speaker 4: of her social lifestyle and being in the wealthy elite
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  Speaker 4: is a part of her story and definitely part of
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: the access that she had to resources and education, and
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: how she was able to move a little bit more
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: freely and independently in her story. So Marie Antoinette, Amritu's mother,
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  Speaker 4: described her this way. Quote She was a beautiful baby
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: with black, silky hair reaching down to her neck and
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: big eyes which seemed to survey the world with queer astonishment.
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  Speaker 3: End quote.
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  Speaker 4: So there was an article written when Amrita was less
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: than two months old, and in that article, the writer
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  Speaker 4: talked about how, speaking of wealth, the family's house had
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  Speaker 4: nice leather chairs, paintings by notable Hungarian artists, lots of books,
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  Speaker 4: nice sculptures and pictures, and ornate frames. And it's you
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: know when we see in stories like this, when people
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  Speaker 4: are surrounded by these kinds of cultural items, it's a
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  Speaker 4: good place for as a child you to draw inspirations.
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  Speaker 4: So even before you may be conscious of what you
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  Speaker 4: want to do in your career or what you want
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  Speaker 4: to do in your life's path, you're just naturally surrounded
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  Speaker 4: by these things, so they envelop you, they encompass the
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  Speaker 4: things that you do. And your parents also have these leanings,
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  Speaker 4: and Amrita's parents were also huge influences in her path
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: and art, so her younger sister and Dara, was born
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  Speaker 4: in nineteen fourteen. And in this environment of Budapest, it
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: was lots of museums, theaters, universities, so it was high
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  Speaker 4: cultural experiences that she was able to have there and
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  Speaker 4: surrounded by. But when World War One broke out and
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  Speaker 4: the money that the family was getting from India was
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  Speaker 4: getting kind of tight, they left Budapest and they went
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: to another town near that was not that far from Budapest,
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  Speaker 4: and it was here that Amarta settled into village life
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  Speaker 4: on the banks of the Danube. And when she was
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: just five years old, as her mother described, she started
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  Speaker 4: drawing with colored pencils. Her mom noted how well she
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: would draw all of the toys that were around her.
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  Speaker 4: And it was here that she started to get closer
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  Speaker 4: to her cousins, Viola and Victor Egan and Victor will
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: come back into her story later in a quite controversial way.
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  Speaker 4: But yeah, when the money got better, they moved back
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  Speaker 4: to Budapest and to more luxury in a suite at
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: the Grand Hotel, and various people in the art world
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  Speaker 4: would visit her family, and Amrita talked about how her
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: favorite kinds of presence to get when she was young
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  Speaker 4: were art materials like drawing paper, color pencils, picture books.
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  Speaker 4: But one thing that I really enjoyed that, she said.
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  Speaker 4: So I'll just stop here for a second to say
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  Speaker 4: that there are letters that Amrita wrote to other people,
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: in letters that people wrote to Amrita that are available
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: for reading. But in the letters and in some of
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: the writings that she wrote, she talked about how when
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: she would get those picture books, it's like she didn't
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: really care for those the most.
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  Speaker 3: She wanted to do.
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  Speaker 4: The hard part of drawing so the whole Like the
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  Speaker 4: adults are going to draw these nice outlines for me,
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: and I'm going to color them in this specific way.
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  Speaker 4: It's not really the way that I want to do things,
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  Speaker 4: Like I want to do things so that I get
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: to express my full creativity and my full you know,
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  Speaker 4: the full breath of what I'm able to do. So
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: she didn't really like that those rigid lines and having
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: to be confined by them, which is pretty symbolic for
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: how she later talks about her experiences and learning from
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: her teachers.
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  Speaker 3: So it's a weird in a weird meta way.
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  Speaker 4: It's like she was saying this through her expression of
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: not wanting to work and draw that way, she was
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: already saying this thing about like how she would develop
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: in her thought process about how she wanted to create
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: her art.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: So she.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: At the time in Hungary it was super unstable. Rule
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: was authoritative, and then there was the prospect of more
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: hardship and less freedom. And that was part of the
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: reason that her her family left for India in January
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: nineteen twenty one, still bougie. You know, they stopped in
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  Speaker 4: Paris on the way. You know, it's a long trip.
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  Speaker 4: Might as well get a little bit of cultural exploration
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  Speaker 4: in in the middle. So they stopped in Paris, saw things,
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: and then they made it to India in February and
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: eventually to the city known as Simla in northern India
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: in April. So her parents are helping her develop her
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: artistic expression early on. They notice it in her, they
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: recognize it, and so they try to uplift that.
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  Speaker 3: They get her an art teacher.
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  Speaker 4: But Amrita, knowing what she wants very early on, it
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: seems like she might have been pretty precocious, was like,
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: I'm bored with this guy's message of teaching. She was like,
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  Speaker 4: he's doing this is too rigid for me, trying to
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: make me do the same thing over and over and
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: do it a way that I don't want to do it.
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: But she still read a lot at this point, and
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: she was introverted, and she eventually started to take lessons
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: from another painter and he was named haul bevon Petman.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: I think that's how you pronounce it. And he saw
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: a lot of potential in her.
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  Speaker 4: He advised I'm Rich's mother that she should train at
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: the Slade School in London and that she should train
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: in Paris. So Marie Antoinette, her mother, was like, all right,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: I'm really into uplifting her interest in art, and I'll
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: do a lot of things to do that for her
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: and her sister Indira.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: So her and her sister.
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  Speaker 4: Would play piano, you know, dance, so they were involved
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: in other cultural aspects and arts as well. But Marie
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  Speaker 4: Antoinette was like, you know, I'm gonna take them to Italy,
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  Speaker 4: but it's because I'm having an affair with the sculptor
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: who's Italian. Under this GUIs that she was going to
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: expose them to more art and language. It's not like
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: that didn't happen. That did happen while they were in Italy.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: But there was this double reasoning for her to go
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: to Italy, but she took them there, and Amrita went
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: to the Santa Annunciata school in Florence.
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  Speaker 3: She didn't like it. She didn't like.
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  Speaker 4: How rigid and how stuck up it seemed, and she
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: thought that it stifled her creatively.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: But she did like being in Italy.
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: And she learned about the Italian Renaissance masters and got
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: interested in their modes of creating. They eventually the family
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: went back to Simla, and there Amrita started going to
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: another Catholic school, which she didn't like being there either.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: And Amreta was already though, capturing the tension in her parents' relationship,
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: so she was very observant. Noticed that about her early work,
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: she notices people's She seemed pretty, you know, empathetic of
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: what other people were experiencing. And she does these watercolors
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: and drawings, and one, for instance, was of a woman
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: lost in a forest.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: One was of a woman holding a knife to her heart.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: And her uncle, Irvin Bakte, was a Hungarian painter and
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: was also an indologist, and he would visit the family
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: in Simila and he introduced Amritu to some new tenants
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: of painting, talked about the importance of plane air painting.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: She started doing these realistic sketches and using live models
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: for her paintings, and she later said that she owed
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: her skill in drawing to him. So the family moved
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: to Paris to support her arts education. When she was sixteen,
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: she got accepted into one school. She did more sketches
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: at the new models that were there, but her she
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: didn't want to draw with the most accuracy and her
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: dad didn't really care for that. There's a quote where
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: he talks about how he saw these other artists who
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: were so faithful to you know, the figures, you know,
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: their drawings were so accurate, and he wasn't an admirer
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: of that.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: But that wasn't what she was into. She didn't want
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: to do that either way.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: She was allowed to start taking classes with this post
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: impressionist professor whose name was Lucienne Simon, and he was
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: at the Accole Deboe's art Even though she was too
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: young to be admitted there, she was still allowed to
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: take classes with him. Her mother wanted her to be
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: part of this elite social life. She wanted you know,
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: the fancy get togethers at home, but I'm Rita. She
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: kind of wanted to be outside with the CD art folks.
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: She was interested in that lifestyle, and she had intimate
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: relationships with men and with women. And she painted one
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: of her lovers whose name was Boris. He was a
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: classmate of hers, and has also talked about how her
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: mom asked her if she was in a sexual relationship
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: with the close friend of hers, whose name was Marie Louise,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: and she says, Mama, I'm not a lesbian, but I
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: can see the benefits. She talks about STIs and playing pregnancy.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: So she was like, so, you know, I see where
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: you're coming from, but I'm not a lesbian. So in
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: her self portrait she painted in nineteen thirty, she was smiling,
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: wearing red lipstick, lots of colorful bracelets and a necklace,
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: and she looks super carefree and happy. I really like
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: that portrait. By the way, y'all can everyone who's listening,
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: y'all can go and see her works online. There are
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: a lot of them, so you can check out her
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: work over time and see how it changed. But yeah,
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: she sees an exhibition by the Bengali artist rabunjaa to
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: Gore in Paris, and she's a fan of his work.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: She keeps painting portraits of people in the city, and
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: she paints more self portraits and she starts spending summers
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: and hungry with her family, but she has this pull
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: to go back to India. In nineteen thirty four, she
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: does go back as she thinks being there will improve
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: her art. Her father didn't want her to go. He
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: felt like her unconventionality would hurt his reputation, and she
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: was like, I can't believe you will put your reputation
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: over my progress, which is understandable, even though clearly the
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: family did move quite a bit for them to learn
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: more about art, but she said she needed more new
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: sources of inspiration and even though she had been in
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Europe for a while her stay, she said that her
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: stay in Europe pushed her to discover more of India
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: and she started using Indian subjects and themes in her work,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: but she maintained parts of her European influence and style,
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: and she said that she wanted to be quote an
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: interpreter of the life of the people, particularly the life
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: of the poor and the sad. She loved the frescoes
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: that she saw at Adonta in western India, and she
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: met Carl Kande la Valla, who became a champion for
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: her work and also a critic of her work, but
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: they were friends for the rest of her life, and
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: she exhibited what was then called Bombay and hydrobad. And
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: here's where another female first comes up. She met Sarojini Naidu,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: who we talked about in a previous episode, who was
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: the first Indian woman to be appointed President of the
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: Indian National Congress. So she's still, you know, rubbing shoulders
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: with famous people and with people who were in politics,
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: who were notable at the time. And she's also having
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: solo exhibitions. So in February of nineteen thirty seven, she
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: had a solo exhibition at a center in the university
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: there in India, and she was becoming well known in
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: the art world there, even though there were times at
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: which she was criticized for the European influence in her work.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: So here's where Victor Egan comes back into the story.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: He was her cousin, but in nineteen thirty eight he
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: became her husband because they got married and her mother
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: didn't approve of that, ostensibly because it was, you know,
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: a marriage in the family, but also it seemed like
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: she didn't think that he was good enough for her,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: like he was still just studying to be a doctor,
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: Like he didn't have the kind of influence and stature
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: that she was looking for for him. And also that
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: wasn't just an outside thing. So they got married. I
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: think it was her niece who talked about how people
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: didn't really understand how they were even a matter why
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: she even got married to him. He didn't understand her work,
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: and it seemed like the marriage wasn't that great. There
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: is a point at which Amrita says they're fond of
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: each other, but they don't have anything to say to
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: each other. So they would sit there in silence, like
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: not talking to each other, and then they're be like, Okay, well,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: I guess it's time to move on to the next thing.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: But in nineteen thirty nine, she she stays with him.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: I think there's a quote in which she says, you know,
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: I followed him to where he wanted to go, like
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: a good Indian wife. In nineteen thirty nine, she went
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: back to India with Victor in June, and at this
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: time World War two is beginning. But from the period
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: from that decade, from about nineteen thirty nine, or excuse me,
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: from about nineteen thirty one and onwards till her death,
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: for about a decade, she created more than one hundred
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: and fifty paintings, so she was pretty prolific and her
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: work is being exhibited. So she had this big solo
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: exhibition that was scheduled to open in Lahore on December
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: sixteenth in nineteen forty one, but that didn't happen as planned.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: Her last painting was this unfinished view from her studio
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: window in Lahore. But she got sick and her husband, Victor,
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: treated her for dysentery, but she went into a coma
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: and Victor didn't end up getting a second opinion and
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: she died on December fifth, nineteen forty one. She was
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: only twenty eight years old at the time, so she
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: had a short life, even though she created a lot
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: of work within that time and she started very early
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: on and she got recognition during that time, so that's
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: very notable. An exhibition of her paintings was held in
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: December of that year at Punjab Literary League Hall in Lahore.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: And she got a lot of poshumus credit as well.
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: So in nineteen forty four, Carl Kanda la Valla wrote
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: a monograph on her and in nineteen forty eight, sadly
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: Amreta's mother, Marie Antoinette died by suicide and Amreta's niece
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: also talked about how how her sister. Amrita's sister Indira
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: also was heavily affected by Amreta's early death and remained
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: pretty sad about it for her life. But her paintings
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: were donated later on. Her dad and brother in law
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: donated some to the National Gallery of Modern Art and
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: her husband also sold some of her paintings, and her
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: family continued to carry on her legacy and document the
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: family history, I think for themselves, but also share that
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: through their work. So Navina Sundoram and Vivan Sundoram they
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: created documentaries, books and artwork about Amorta in her life
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: they were dedicated to as part of their own personal
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: artistic practices, but also as part of being their family
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: historians and sharing her work in legacy with other people
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: so that they knew about it as well. And also
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: Amrita's work has gotten a lot of money at auction.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: She's considered one of the nine National Treasure Artists of
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: India and she's also credited with helping bring in modernism
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: into Indian art. And last year she set a record
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: for getting the highest ever price for an Indian art
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: work that was sold at auction. It was sold for
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: seven point four or five million dollars. And that was
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: the work The Storyteller, which it shows the circle of
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: women that are seated next to cow's in a garden.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: And she often in her work showed women's subjects. As
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: I said from that quote that she had earlier, she
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: was really interested in faithfully documenting, but not like romanticizing
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: the life of people who were living in poverty in
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: India and the people who were just going about their
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: daily duties and working and spending time with their families
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: and loved ones and painting those kinds of scenes. So
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: that is the life of Armor to She did a
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: lot in a very short period twenty eight years. But
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: it's a very very fascinating story. I think from all
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: of her travels, to her background, to the different influences
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: she had through her being invested and involved in art
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: at such a turbulent time during the World Wars and
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: during her time in Hungary.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love this story. It's amazing that she had
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: such an influence and continues to still have an influence
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: and is her paintings are breaking millions of dollars. But
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I also love that you bought in. The through line
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: in her life seemed to be like she didn't like that.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: She didn't people kept telling her what to do, and
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: she was like, no, I don't like that, so I'm
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: going to do this own thing. And she made change
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: through doing that. But it is it's to hear it
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: from such a young age of like I don't want
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: to color in the lines. I don't want to be
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: like restrained in this way or this this teacher, I
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: don't like how he only teaches me this one thing.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: It's amazing to see how many times she was like, no,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna do I'm going to do my own thing.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: Actually yeah, and she said it out loud, like she
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: was like, yeah, I'm not into that.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I'm still going to do it my own way, and
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: this is for the best.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: She clearly bet on herself, so like even when people
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: outside of her was were telling her that this wasn't
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: the best way to do things, or she wasn't going
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: to have the most success doing these things. She still
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: chose to paint that way. She still chose to draw
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: that way, and she wasn't afraid of the consequences. So
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: it seemed like she was like, Okay, whatever happens, I'm
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: going to choose to do things this way. Like, for instance,
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: she got expelled from one of the Catholic schools that
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: she was going to, and you know, it was like,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: all right, fine, I don't I'm you know, I'm I'm
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: doing these new paintings.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: I'm doing these new drawings.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: This is what I choose to do because this is
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: what I want to do, and I'll accept whatever comes
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: after that.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: I feel like she was the original bohemian pixie manic girl.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that level of like a little bit of rebellion,
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: but a lot of wisdom as well, and just really
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: following her instinct. It's kind of like, oh, she really
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: was that girl.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: Well, it's funny you say that because in one of
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: the when I was watching her niece talk about her,
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: she mentioned that a lot of the people in the
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: family were man they had manic depression, and she said
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: that what she said was that Amorton was the one
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: who was the most stable of.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: All of them.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: So I think that might have been comparative because she
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: still said that there were some of that in her,
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: but like compared to her other family members, she was
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: the one who didn't.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: Have it as much as they did.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: But she definitely was all about like going in the
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: opposite direction.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Right. I love that story.
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: It sounds like then that makes a lot more sense
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: of why she got so much leeway into doing those things,
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: and the other people were like, well, it's less bad
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: as cousin over here, so let her do this just
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: doing things.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: It's wonderful. Yeah, but it does. It's it's so her.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: This story is so ripe for dramatizing because of how romanic,
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: because of how romanticized that kind of bohemian lifestyle can be,
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: and Paris at the time she was there exactly, and
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: the way she was moving through Paris because she was bisexual,
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: you know, even though she said to her mom, like,
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: I'm not a lesbian.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: So I think there are so many elements of her
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: story that are so fanciful, and she really was a
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: beautiful person. And if you go and you see the
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: pictures of the home she lived in, like they just
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: look so nice and idealic, like the environments that they
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: were in and growing up in the village. And I
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: think this overarching theme of her navigating two different realms,
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: you know, because she was definitely moneyed and definitely walking
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: in these circles with these high falutine folks, but she
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: was also able to, like in a way that seemed
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: pretty sincere, speak with and engage with people who lived
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: in villages and also live in village herself, and remain
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: focused on her art and the expressing things in an
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: honest and sincere way and.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Seemingly remaining humble.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's really I find that when I'm looking
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: at her work, it is very evinces truly a lot
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: of emotion. Like I think, I don't know, maybe everyone's
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: to just spend a little bit of time just like
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: looking at them and maybe even look at them before
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: you dig deeper into her story and see what feelings
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: arise as as looking through them, because you know, people
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: still clearly recognize what her work meant to Indian art
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: and what it meant to modern art, and that is
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: beyond their commercial value, because you know, southernby auctions aren't
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: the end all be all of the meaning that should
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: be made from the work that somebody did. So even
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: beyond that, her recognition as this national treasure of India
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: is important, and the work that her family has done
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: in memorializing her. It's honestly really beautiful too, because I
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: think it was Vivan Sundorum. You know, he has his
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: own artwork as well, but at a point turned really
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: heavily into being this kind of family historian, and that
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: takes a lot of work, especially with someone who has
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: such an extensive family history and extensively documented family history,
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: because not everybody kept those kinds of letters, not everybody
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: wrote them, and not everybody held on to them. Not
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: everybody had that photographic documentation of their lives.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: So it's honestly a really beautiful.
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: Thing to see how long of a life and how
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: much of an avalanche just that documentation over time through
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: personal passion but also through dedication devotion to documenting that
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: that's really paid off, right.
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: I mean, that definitely says a lot to like how
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: much he was able to foresee the importance of it
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: all because most of the times, like in our presence,
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: a lot of times we don't think about it. We
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: don't think about it until like fifty years later or
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: one hundred years later, when we have to rediscover it
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: and be like, oh man, if someone had actually seen
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: foreseen what this could have been like. In here we
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: have an actual moment of like him, loving something and
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: understanding something to its depth and preserving it and making
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: sure that it's told. That's phenomenal.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, it is, it is.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: It's strangely enough, I've thought about this because I'm very
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: sentimental and I save everything like people send me.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: And I don't know why.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: I think it's just because of the I watched so
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: many horror movies. But I've thought about, like, if I
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: died or disappeared suddenly, here's what they would have like
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: to piece together who I am. But the thing is,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: I've also burned things that I didn't like.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: I remember that.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: So it's like you're kind of, in a strange way,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: controlling a narrative that will never happen in my case.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: But it's just interesting to think about those things that
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: people find and piece together through letters or diaries or
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: what have you. In the story that you're able to
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: the story of someone's life. You're able to get from
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: those things.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: That is really great.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: And I believe I kept a scrap book as well,
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: and it had clippings of the articles about her in it.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: And yes, it makes me think about what I should
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: keep and when I don't keep, because I like to
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: keep things too, And like, since I've been traveling, I'm like.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: Should I keep this entry ticket? Should I keep this map?
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: Like no, it's just a kind of pretty disposable piece
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: of paraphernalia, Like it's just a map, but like is
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: just is it just a map?
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: It tells part of the story too. Should I keep
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: this receipt? Like little things like that? So yeah, it
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: is something that is interesting to think about.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also in a trope and a lot of
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: games I play, like horror games, because you find the
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: notes and they're like.
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: Oh no, this is all the like yeah, yes, so
• 35:43
  Speaker 6: well you're talking about the survival horror video games, aren't you.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just.
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: Thinking absolutely, like The Last of Us and The Last
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: of Us two. But eas just just to answer your question, yes,
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: you should save everything as you're traveling. I should like
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: put it as a bookmarker in your journal of like
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: those times, because that's significant.
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: Well, I've been an aspirational scrap booker, I have to
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: tell you. I always say I'm going to put it
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: in there because it'll be somewhere to store it.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: But I never do it. I never do it.
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: My mom's the only scrap booker I know, and she
• 36:15
  Speaker 5: does pretty well. It makes me I realize how little
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: stuff that I did sometimes and I'm like, oh, my
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: scrap book is four pages.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: Nice. I'm just kidding, But yes, scrapbook is in the chore.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: It's a commitment.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I did them for like things I loved. Yeah you
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: did you didn't do it? Oh yeah? Oh yeah.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: There has to be someone willing to hold onto this
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: scrap book after.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Into this. Is anybody gonna care about it?
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: Yes?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, Well, thank you so much, Eves for coming on.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: We know you're busy, uh, traveling all over, so thank you.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: We really appreciate it. We always love having you.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah. I love sharing any story.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: They're great, They're so good. Where can the good listeners
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: find you?
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: Y'all can find me. You can go to Instagram. I'm
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: there at not apologizing. You can also go to my
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: website which is Eve's Jeffcote dot com. That's spelled yv
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: E s j E F f co a t dot com.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: And from there you can find links out to other things.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: So you can also sign up for my newsletter if
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: you go to just like the pop up on that
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: page or go to my contact page on my website.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: You can also find me as a co host of
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: the podcast on Theme, which is a show about black storytelling,
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: and you can find me on many other episodes of
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: Stuff Mom Never Told You talking about female first and yeah,
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: just if as I mentioned earlier in the episode, if
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: you're interested in my travels and the history and natural
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: things that I've been doing along the way, then you
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: can find that stuff on Instagram and they'll be links
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: out to other places to find that too there.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, definitely go do that.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Listeners, and if you would like to contact us, you
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: can our emails Stepnie Mom Stuff at I heartmedia dot com.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter at most of the
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: podcast or Instagram and to talk at stuff I'll Never
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Told You. We're on YouTube, we have a tea public story,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: and we have a book you can get wherever you
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Stuff I'll Never Told You is production by Heart Radio.
• 38:42
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• 38:43
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• 38:45
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