Latest / Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm / From Finnish Lab to US IPO: Dr. Jan Goetz on Building Europe's Quantum Leader IQM

Transcript

From Finnish Lab to US IPO: Dr. Jan Goetz on Building Europe's Quantum Leader IQM · Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm

• 0:00
  Pitching with investors is much more of a dialogue.
• 0:02
  Of course, you, you have your first pitch, and this is whi- where you tell your story and your vision of what you want to do.
• 0:08
  But then if the investor is interested, they will come back and say, "Yeah, I like your story, but maybe you shouldn't think so much about this, but rather that." And then it's also, I think, especially in these early days, what the investors want to see is that you as a CEO, you're not too kind of militaristic with your thinking, that you are open to take suggestions.
• 0:26
  Because it's also clear, especially for a first time CEO like me, that you don't know how to do this stuff.
• 0:32
  I mean, I've never built a company before, so this means I constantly have to take in advice, advice from people who have been doing it in the past.
• 0:39
  And I think investors want to see that the CEOs and, and the leaders of these early stage startups, that they are willing and able to take the feedback and implement it.
• 0:49
  Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast.
• 0:52
  Too many advanced science and engineering companies fail to deliver their innovations from the lab to the market.
• 0:59
  We're on a mission to change that.
• 1:01
  My name is Chris Reichhelm, and I'm the founder and CEO of Deep Tech Leaders.
• 1:06
  Each week we speak with some of the world's leading entrepreneurs, investors, corporates, and policy makers about what it takes to succeed on the lab to market journey.
• 1:16
  Join us It all starts with a founder, or to be more precise, a set of co-founders or group of co-founders, one of whom at some point is gonna be selected or will select themselves to be the CEO And as far as consequential decisions go, that's a pretty significant one.
• 1:44
  The choice of CEO, a founder CEO, is a huge decision that will impact the direction of the technology, the formation and selection of the team, the culture of the group, uh, the integrity, the values, all of these things are crucial, and they all stem from that selection of leader.
• 2:10
  The founder CEOs are really important.
• 2:14
  And in fact, in our capacity as deep tech leaders, we've recently completed a white paper looking at the five founder CEO archetypes that lab to market companies typically have.
• 2:27
  If you're interested, you should check it out.
• 2:29
  You can find us at deeptechleaders.com.
• 2:30
  Check us out under Deep Tech Insights, and you'll find the white paper in there.
• 2:36
  The most common founder CEO archetype is the scientific steward, uh, someone who's been a principal investigator, a postdoc, a PhD, whatever.
• 2:46
  And they are-- and they become the CEO, guide the research, and then lead the incorporation and transition into a company.
• 2:56
  Uh, we've already talked about how important it is.
• 2:58
  Uh, the scientific steward is the most common type of archetype we see in deep tech companies.
• 3:04
  And I am delighted today that we have one of the best examples of scientific steward CEOs around, Dr. Jan Goetz.
• 3:15
  Jan is the co-founder and CEO of IQM, Europe's largest quantum computing company.
• 3:22
  Uh, we're gonna hear all about the story, uh, of IQM, and importantly, Jan's story as founder CEO and the journey that they have been on together.
• 3:36
  What Jan has picked up from that journey, the lessons, uh, the opportunities, the way the role has shifted, the way he has had to adapt to the role.
• 3:46
  IQM is no ordinary quantum computing startup.
• 3:50
  This is a company that has gone literally from ideas from the lab, VTT and Aalto University in Finland, all the way to a pot- a market listing happening this summer in the US.
• 4:04
  They are Europe's largest quantum computing company by virtue of fundraising, by virtue of headcount, and by virtue of quantum computers sold.
• 4:14
  This is an extraordinary lab-to-market journey.
• 4:16
  We're gonna be finding out about the founder CEO journey within that.
• 4:20
  This is gonna be wonderful.
• 4:21
  Let's get into it.
• 4:26
  Jan Goetz, thank you so much for joining me.
• 4:29
  Well, thanks.
• 4:29
  I'm really looking forward to the session You have, you know, we talk a lot about lab-to-market journeys on this show, and, uh, you have had-- you and the broader IQM team have had an extraordinary lab-to-market journey, and of course, you're still having an extraordinary lab-to-market journey.
• 4:51
  Um, IQM, and I'm just gonna kind of start out with a few facts here.
• 4:57
  Please feel free to correct me, but IQM is Europe's largest quantum computing company today, largest by virtue of head count, somewhere between three hundred and fifty and four hundred, I think, uh, largest by virtue of financing, somewhere in the region of six hundred.
• 5:16
  Am I about right?
• 5:17
  Six hundred million.
• 5:19
  And largest by virtue of actually one of the most important metrics, by actual quantum computers sold, and we're talking full stack quantum computers, and that's n-not just a European metric, if I understand correctly, but that's also a global metric, so no one has sold more quantum computers globally than IQM.
• 5:37
  And, uh, and so, you know, and, and, and, you know, if you'd like the cherry on the cake here is, uh, you've just announced, uh, a public offering that will take place later this year, so IQM will be moving from a private company to a public company in the United States.
• 5:56
  So that is kind of the dream for so many founders.
• 6:00
  It's why so many get into this, to have the kind of experience, to have that kind of journey that you are having right now.
• 6:07
  Um, you know, do you pinch yourself sometimes and think,"Shit, this is my life"?
• 6:13
  Yeah, that's actually a good point, and usually as, as founders, we care so much about our companies that we are very busy developing the companies.
• 6:20
  Yeah.
• 6:20
  And there's very little time to just sit down and reflect.
• 6:25
  Uh, I do still, I think I have a very kind of core group of, of good friends and of course my family, and, and when I spend time, they are-- usually these are the moments, uh, where you have a little bit of time to reflect.
• 6:37
  But in the day-to-day life, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm very busy running from one meeting to another.
• 6:42
  Uh, so often there's not enough time to pinch yourself and think about, hey, what is, what is actually happening here?
• 6:50
  Yeah.
• 6:50
  Yeah.
• 6:52
  Let's-- I wanna take a trip, if you don't mind.
• 6:54
  I wanna go back in time a little bit.
• 6:56
  Um, you did your PhD at the Technical University of Munich, as I understand it, in, um, in superconducting qubits.
• 7:04
  Superconducting qubits are the modality that IQM, uh, it's the way IQM approach quantum computing via superconducting qubits.
• 7:13
  So you did your PhD there, and then you came, as I understand it, to VTT and Aalto University, uh, in Finland.
• 7:21
  And when you came, you know, and IQM, it would eventually spin out of VTT and Aalto.
• 7:29
  Was that the plan when you originally came over, that you would spin a company out of some kind?
• 7:35
  Or were you coming over with the idea of really just continuing research?
• 7:41
  Yeah, so it was never the plan in my life to build a company.
• 7:44
  I've never been even in touch with entrepreneurship, um, before.
• 7:48
  So my goal was to become a professor, uh, work with the students, do education.
• 7:54
  This is something actually I still enjoy a lot, and, uh, I still have the honor to sometimes give lectures, for example, here at Aalto University, or I work also a lot with the entrepreneurship labs in Munich and, and, uh, student groups around the world.
• 8:08
  So, um, my, my goal was to drive the science forward, and after my PhD in Munich, yeah, I decided to continue the research career.
• 8:17
  And my initial thinking was that I stay two years in Finland.
• 8:21
  This is typically the cadence in, in research.
• 8:23
  You get a two-year contract, and then you look for your next opportunity until you maybe get tenured somewhere.
• 8:29
  So this was the expectation I had, and, um, of course, now things turned out to be very, very different from this initial plan.
• 8:37
  Um, but the guidance, usually when I talk to students, um, the, the guidance I always give them is to follow your heart.
• 8:44
  Um, this has been kind of my rule for making such decisions.
• 8:48
  So even though you might have a kind of plan in your head how you think your life would evolve- Mm-hmm … um, I think sometimes you are at this, um, kind of point in life where you have to make a decision, and then the question is, do you just follow your predefined plan, or do you follow your heart?
• 9:07
  Sometimes they kind of align with each other.
• 9:09
  That's great.
• 9:10
  Then the decision is very easy.
• 9:11
  But sometimes- Yeah … maybe you think, "Hey, this looks or this kind of now feels really, really great.
• 9:17
  Maybe I should do this." And, uh, for example, even going here to Finland and, and starting, um, the postdoc at Aalto University was such a decision because I had other opportunities as well back then, uh, when actually, uh, when I heard from the opening here at Aalto, I was interviewing, uh, in Barcelona at a, a very strong research group.
• 9:36
  I also was already advanced, uh, with strong groups in the US, and many people told me, "Hey, you're crazy.
• 9:42
  Why would you go to Finland, this place that kind of not most known, uh, place in the world if compared to Barcelona or maybe the East Coast in the United States?" But it was really this gut feeling that the team that I experienced here and all the ecosystem around it, it just felt right.
• 9:59
  And- Mm-hmm … uh, so I, I took this decision and, um, I'm, I'm not regretting any of those decisions so far in my life.
• 10:05
  Yeah.
• 10:07
  What was the… In those early days when you were doing your research, were you already in contact with the guys and gals who would go on to become the co-founders of IQM?
• 10:21
  Were they part of your research group?
• 10:22
  Well, yeah.
• 10:23
  So when I was working at Aalto, Mikko Möttönen and the professor, he's one of the co-founders, and one of the reasons actually I also thought this is a great opportunity is because, uh, he really likes to grow people and, um, I'm, I think very much aligned with this people-centric view.
• 10:40
  And what he told me was that there's this great guy in his lab called Kuan, who was one of the founders, but Kuan actually got another position in Australia, so he was about to go back to Australia and Mikko was feeling that there would be a big gap in his group also on the leadership side.
• 10:57
  And he said, "Hey, if you come and join me, I think you can fill this leadership hole." And for me, this was like jumping a postdoc because typically your first postdoc is just another PhD, so to say, you do a lot of kind of science.
• 11:09
  But here I was given the opportunity to take this role and build up a lab.
• 11:14
  I was hiring my, my own PhDs.
• 11:17
  I was kind of applying for grant applications, and this was part of why it felt so right to go there because I felt that, A, there is a great opportunity for me, but also, B, I felt the trust from the people to develop me and, and push me forward.
• 11:33
  That's a big one.
• 11:34
  So that early kind of trust.
• 11:36
  How well did you know Mikko at that point, or had you only recently met him?
• 11:39
  Not at all.
• 11:40
  So I wa- I was literally interviewing in Barcelona and I got an email from one of my former co- colleagues saying, "Hey, they're hiring a postdoc in, in Finland at Aalto.
• 11:48
  I think you should look at this." So I was sitting there in Barcelona and I was writing then Mikko, "Hey, I heard you're, you're hiring.
• 11:56
  Um, I'm interested." And he said, "Yeah, just book the next flight and come right over." So this is what I did.
• 12:03
  Um, and, um, then, yeah, the, the rest is, is known.
• 12:07
  And I think this is a little bit, these types of decisions also when he told me-- So my, my contract then after two years working with him came to an end and I thought I would continue with a maybe junior professorship or some other, uh, research lead, uh, elsewhere and he just said, "Yeah, come to my office and we talk about it." And I thought we would talk how we develop my career further, but then he just said, "Hey, what do you think about starting a company with me and, and you stay in Finland?" So both of these decisions, it didn't take, take a lot of my time to reflect.
• 12:40
  Again, this thing I like-- It wa- these were big decisions, but it just felt right, um, in my heart and kind of in my gut, and then I said, "Yeah, let's do it.
• 12:48
  This, this really feels right." Yeah.
• 12:51
  And, and for your early team then, so you and Mikko decide you're gonna co-found a company, um, uh, after your research contract and, you know, can you talk a little bit about what that early co-founding team looked like, how it was set up?
• 13:09
  You know, division of labor.
• 13:10
  Were you still in kind of scientific discovery phase, technical discovery phase?
• 13:16
  You know, what was guiding it at the time?
• 13:17
  Yeah.
• 13:18
  So I mean, so there are four co-founders.
• 13:21
  Kuan I mentioned already, but at that time then he was in Australia, so even though he was committed on, on paper, um, he wasn't present in, in the lab or did a lot of the work there.
• 13:31
  And then Juha, um, who is, uh, the fourth co-founder, um, he was actually already, let's say, having a real job in, in industry.
• 13:39
  Um, so he knew Mikko from when they did their PhDs together, um, in the early 2000s in quantum computing.
• 13:46
  Um, and he was then the only one who had real business interest, but he had a real job, so he could also not spend too much time on, on this project.
• 13:54
  So we had the technology to a place where we could build first prototypes.
• 13:59
  Um, we, we got a big research, uh, grant to build a first prototype quantum computer and, and we had the first chips running in the lab.
• 14:08
  But of course, the story that we then told to investors was much more than that, right?
• 14:13
  It was really this vision that we still have is building a globally leading quantum computing company that sells these systems, um, around the world.
• 14:21
  So even though we knew the baseline technology and we made it working in the lab, we were very far away from having a real product from, from this perspective.
• 14:30
  And even the whole kind of product thinking in the university is it's not really there because that's not the job of universities, right?
• 14:37
  They should explore new physics or, or new, uh, science, show that it's possible, and then move on to the next one.
• 14:45
  But the whole topic of productizing something is to make copies over and over again and, and, and sell it, and that's really not the job of, of university.
• 14:52
  So, uh, we had a baseline, but from a commercial story, we were very, very far away from where we are today.
• 14:59
  Sure.
• 15:00
  Sure.
• 15:00
  But you'd expect that.
• 15:02
  You're in research.
• 15:03
  You've, you know, you've only recently spun out.
• 15:06
  H- Were you incorporated at this point?
• 15:09
  So the company exists on paper since, I think, April 2018.
• 15:14
  This is when it, it was registered.
• 15:16
  Um, but back then, um, m- mainly what we did in these early days was discussing with Aalto University on how the spin-out process would go, and this is of course about the people, about the knowhow, so how to produce these chips, so, um, and, and the IP behind it.
• 15:33
  Um, and all of this, of course, needs to be agreed, um, to a certain level at least before you can go out to investors.
• 15:40
  Because the first thing investors will ask is, "Hey, who is, who is in it?
• 15:44
  Who owns the IP, and, and how are you gonna do it?" And if you then say,"Well, we are still discussing with the university, and everything is totally unclear," they will tell you, "Come back when- whenever you, you have agreed." So these early days, let's say in 2018, was still mainly coming up with the kind of fundamental plans, ideas, what kind of company do we want to build, and then the discussions with the universities.
• 16:09
  Um, we, we then end of the year, I think we started pitching, um, and I remember having investor meetings here in, in Helsinki in, in early January.
• 16:18
  This is when the round was kind of shaping our first investment round.
• 16:22
  The seed round was kind of starting to shape, so this is kind of what, what happened back then.
• 16:28
  Did you guys know at that time that you were going to build full stack quantum computers?
• 16:38
  Well, yes and no.
• 16:39
  So the know-how was really on the chip side, but the point is to test the chip, you don't need a fully functional quantum computer, but you kind of n- need a, a test set up, and we knew how to build such setups.
• 16:50
  Um, Finland actually has a pretty strong ecosystem, especially on the cryogenic side.
• 16:55
  Another spin out from this labs from way earlier is a company called Bluefors- Bluefors … and they are very successful meanwhile.
• 17:02
  So they have-- Of course we, we have been using kind of their cryostats, which is the shells, and we have been having all of the electronics.
• 17:09
  But if you look at these first pitch and, and, and the first pitch deck, actually you find in there still a slide, I think, saying that we, we know how to do the processors and actually as a de-risking, we, uh, we, we don't need to build the full system because there was a European research consortium or a research project going on at that time, which was called OpenSuperQ.
• 17:31
  So this was a group of several universities, Zurich, I think, and, and some others, um, and they were also claiming to build a first 100 qubit computer, um, on the, on the academic side.
• 17:44
  So it wasn't that clear.
• 17:46
  But then as we developed the company, basically it became more and more clear, and one thing that we ha- have said since the very beginning is that we want to commercialize and sell.
• 17:57
  And in the early days, we still thought we could try both.
• 18:00
  We can sell the chips, and we can sell the computers.
• 18:03
  But then relatively soon it became clear that it's hard to sell chips if there's no system integrator who takes the chips and install it somewhere.
• 18:10
  And the, the industry was so early, there was such none.
• 18:13
  So we kind of decided, okay, we stop this whole chips business.
• 18:16
  We, we u- we develop our chips, and we use them, but we don't sell the chips as independent products.
• 18:22
  We are really selling the full stack quantum computers.
• 18:25
  Yeah.
• 18:26
  What, um- Why were you selected as CEO, do you think?
• 18:38
  Putting you on the spot a little bit Yeah, yeah But- That's a good question.
• 18:42
  So I think Mikko, the professor, for him it was clear he had to make a decision.
• 18:47
  Either he stays in the university, or basically he would become the CEO of the company and run the company.
• 18:52
  And the university really told him, "You have to decide.
• 18:54
  You cannot be on both sides, uh, because of IP and conflict of interest and all of this." And he made for himself this decision that he wants to continue the research group, uh, which I think is great and also for the company is great because we'd get a lot of talent and, and collaboration.
• 19:08
  Um, so it was not him.
• 19:10
  And then we, I think we, we thought about how does a team look and, or a proper team, um, in, in a tech company, you need a CTO, you need a, um, CEO, and, and then we said also chief operating officer.
• 19:21
  So these were the three roles, and Kuan, um, was the, the CTO.
• 19:26
  He clearly I think was kind of most deep into the technology.
• 19:29
  Also then given what he did also then in Australia.
• 19:32
  Juha was the only one with operation experience, given that he has been kind of working in, in, in industry before.
• 19:39
  Um, and I think I was always good in creating these kind of plans.
• 19:44
  I was, I was actually already getting a lot of grant money when I was working in Mikko's group, and I was pitching the story.
• 19:50
  I was going to a lot of conferences.
• 19:52
  So it was clear that what I could do is tell the story and sing the song.
• 19:56
  And still today, this is what I do most.
• 19:58
  If you kind of think about how I spent my time, I'm, I'm, sometimes I'm saying I'm the foreign minister of the company, so I really am this kind of outward-looking person.
• 20:07
  Um, and I think the role distribution, it worked perfectly, especially for the, for the early days.
• 20:12
  So it was mainly me singing the song out there in the world, and it was Kuan and, and Mikko building the business.
• 20:19
  Kuan, the technol- uh, Kuan and Juha, sorry, uh, building the, the business, um, Kuan on the technology side.
• 20:24
  And, and Juha, he has been hiring actually our first 100 employees.
• 20:27
  So he has been building the, the core team and, and setting up the, the offices and, and do all of these things in the background.
• 20:34
  Yeah.
• 20:35
  The, um, I like the, uh, I like the point or the, the parallel you raised between the grant funding and the fundraising.
• 20:44
  I mean, both involve the raising of capital for a particular purpose.
• 20:49
  But generally, when most people, I'm guessing, certainly when I think about grant funding, I think of generally written applications of some kind- Mm … um, to a European body or to, uh, you know, a North American body or whatever it is.
• 21:03
  But, you know, you're writing applications, and someone will come back, and you might, you know, amend those applications, and, and then you find out.
• 21:09
  I'd, uh, I guess I think of it less in the context of actually going out and telling the story.
• 21:15
  Mm. But in fact, with grant funding, that is what you're doing a lot.
• 21:18
  You're still telling the story.
• 21:20
  "This is what we're trying to do." Were, you know, were you ever running up against conflicts, and I know some grants work like this, where they have a, you know, fairly narrow aperture or a scope- Mm Uh, th- where they want research conducted.
• 21:35
  You know, did you find enough early grants, I suppose, to accommodate your development, uh, wishes, if you will?
• 21:44
  Yeah, I think the art of grant writing is that you write it very specific for 50% of the grant, and this is work that you have already mostly done or you, you kind of know that this is going to happen.
• 21:56
  And the other 50%, you write quite open, and this is what you actually do with the money and explore new things.
• 22:02
  Yeah.
• 22:02
  And so this is my, my, uh, uh, yeah, this is- Yeah, th- those are your tips … now I can say this, I'm not working in the university anymore, so- That's how you did it.
• 22:09
  Yeah, so this is- Yeah … I think how it works.
• 22:12
  Um, when we, when we started to pitch, I think the difference is that it's much more of a dialogue.
• 22:19
  So the, the grant is you submit a grant application.
• 22:21
  There's a deadline, the document is in, someone evaluates it, and they say, "I like A, B, C," and yeah, then they either give you the money or not.
• 22:29
  The pitching with investors is much more of a dialogue.
• 22:33
  Of course, you, you have your first pitch, and this is why- where you tell your story and your vision of what you want to do.
• 22:39
  But then if the investor is interested, they will come back and say, "Yeah, I like your story, but maybe you shouldn't think so much about this, but rather that." And then it's also, I think especially in these early days, what the investors want to see is that you as a CEO, you're not too kind of militaristic with your thinking, that you are open to take suggestions.
• 22:57
  Because it's also clear, especially for a first time CEO like me, that you don't know how to do this stuff.
• 23:03
  I mean, I've never built a company before, so this means I constantly have to take in advice, advice from people who have been doing it in the past.
• 23:10
  And I think investors want to see that the CEOs and, and the leaders of these early stage startups, that they are willing and able to take the feedback and implement it.
• 23:19
  So it's much more an iterative process, um, where you gain that momentum, you gain traction with these investors.
• 23:25
  Uh, but then of course, in the end, you need to kind of bring them over the finish line, and usually you have kind of a, a budget or an investment plan, so the money is allocated for some specific tasks.
• 23:35
  But then also how you run the business in these early days, there's lots of pivoting.
• 23:39
  Many startups I think pivot- Sure … in their business plan and their approach.
• 23:43
  So I think this is the main difference, that it's much more of a dialogue in these, uh, early stage in investment days, uh, compared to the grant funding.
• 23:52
  And so by that, can we assume that young founder CEOs that are out there thinking about how they might raise and what they might do Should they be that worried about what appears in the slide deck?
• 24:06
  Or should the slide deck be just enough to capture some interest and then be following it up and, uh, demonstrating that openness that you've just referred to in the conversations?
• 24:19
  Yeah.
• 24:20
  Now, looking back, I think what the slide deck and what the pitch needs to have is, in the beginning, there needs to be this big vision.
• 24:28
  Because these early stage investors, the way they work is, let's say from a single fund, they make 10 bets, and each individual bet needs to be powerful enough to carry the whole fund.
• 24:38
  So basically the, the nine others can go bankrupt, but still they make a, a profit.
• 24:42
  So the story needs to be bold enough to make this 10X or 20X.
• 24:48
  So this is one thing, and I think this needs to be there in, in the beginning, and the founder needs to reflect this boldness.
• 24:53
  So you shouldn't then shy away.
• 24:55
  And this is something I think also we as Europeans, especially here in the Nordics, it's not our kind of, at our core to be bold and, and make these statements.
• 25:04
  We want to be rather humble and, and honest and engineering driven.
• 25:08
  But this needs to be there, the big picture.
• 25:10
  Um, and then I think there needs some kind of traction.
• 25:14
  So what you actually, why you think you can do it and where you start.
• 25:17
  But then I think in the end, there needs to be a little bit openness and, and saying that actually we have, say, three different paths we could go and this is de-risking the business.
• 25:27
  I think this is then the part that the investors want to see.
• 25:29
  You say, "Our main path is we sell, let's say, computers. But if computer sell, it doesn't work, we can still sell chips or we pivot to something else." So I think these are elements that typically investors want to see in a pitch.
• 25:42
  Yeah.
• 25:43
  When did you guys have to start factoring in the commercial considerations?
• 25:51
  Uh, well, I think we did-- We were not asked to do it.
• 25:53
  So usually these deep tech investors, they have long time horizons, five, 10 years or so.
• 25:58
  They, they are used to it, and they see how things go.
• 26:00
  I think this was really coming from the team, and here, particularly the founders, where we said, "Now we get the first money together, what do we do it?
• 26:08
  How do we actually build a business?" And in, in these early days, um, so this was maybe then end of two thousand nineteen or so, um, we said, "Okay, we build computers, so what we sell is computers," right?
• 26:20
  This is the product.
• 26:21
  Um, and then, okay, who's gonna buy it?
• 26:24
  This was the, the trickier question because these computers didn't yet have any commercial applications.
• 26:30
  The story that we then created was that we took an analogy from, um, SpaceX.
• 26:37
  So the way that SpaceX has been building up the company in the early days is they have been selling these kind of rocket flights to NASA and to government organizations.
• 26:45
  And I think many of these early rockets, they exploded right after the start.
• 26:49
  So you could argue the usefulness of, of these things.
• 26:52
  But nevertheless, the government bought it, and rightfully so.
• 26:55
  And this was the story we then-- So basically we said, "Yeah, it needs to be the same thing." The early risk needs to be still taken by the governments if we want to build a company that can become as big as SpaceX.
• 27:07
  So we went out there, we talked to the commission, we talked to governments, of course, here our home turf is the Finnish government, but also the German government and said, "Hey, if you want to see a real g-global leader from Europe, you need to start buying the technology." And we said,"The first computer you need to buy is a five qubit machine, and then you need to buy the twenty qubit," and, and so on.
• 27:27
  And, um, yeah, uh, somehow our, our story was, um, convincing enough for them to do it.
• 27:33
  And I know even internally, um, our leads and engineers, so the, the early team, they were questioning and saying, "Why would anyone buy a five qubit machine?" But the fun fact is we are still selling them.
• 27:44
  We're still selling these very early five qubit machines to universities as educational tools.
• 27:49
  And I think this is sometimes where, as a founder, where you have this vision, you just need to push it through, even if, if some people might doubt it.
• 27:57
  You will always find someone who doubts your plan and who is not fully behind it.
• 28:01
  But then you sh- you sh-- Yeah, this is where you need to show some strength and say, "Okay, I do it anyways, and I will prove you wrong, and people will buy it." And of course, sometimes you will be wrong, and you will hit the wall, and then you need to stand up and, and to, uh, kind of learn from it.
• 28:13
  But sometimes you are right, and then you create your success stories.
• 28:18
  Was, was there an element of, um I think Bill Gurley, who's a, a very well-known venture investor from the Valley, he talks a little bit about, uh, I think the most important quality of a startup, the most important feature of a successful startup is timing, really good timing.
• 28:39
  And I wonder a little bit about-- I mean, you guys were kind of cresting a bit or starting to think about the commercial questions from the sounds of it around two thousand and nineteen, two thousand and twenty.
• 28:50
  So we're kind of into COVID time.
• 28:52
  We're just about to hit COVID.
• 28:54
  But I, uh Nowadays, if you were having the same conversations, I think European companies and institutions would be biting your arm off for quantum computers, and as they are, as, you know, and I think that's part of the reason for your success, the really good timing.
• 29:11
  There's a geopolitical, there's a sovereign angle to this now.
• 29:14
  Quantum has been identified as a, as a key strategic technology that Europe has to, at least in part, own or have some kind of access to that is European.
• 29:28
  And you guys cresting at around this time when we start to have these different debates, I wonder if there's a nice confluence of great timing and emerging capability.
• 29:38
  Do you- Yeah … do you see something similar?
• 29:41
  Yeah, and I think there were two, let's call it developments that we didn't have in our plans that were strongly affecting the success of the company.
• 29:51
  And one is COVID, and I can talk a little bit more about this.
• 29:54
  Mm. And the other one is that when we started in summer 2019, this is when we announced the seed funding round, uh, in July 2019.
• 30:03
  July 2019 was also the month when Finland took over the EU presidency, which is rotating every six months, um, between member states.
• 30:13
  And, um, so the, the, the EU presidency, what this actually did is that through the Finnish government, we were placed at very prominent events and, and places in Brussels because the, the Finnish government is in charge of creating the agenda for these six months, and there are lots of events, uh, where, where they are kind of leading then, uh, the, the agenda piece, and this means there are always opportunities to display success stories or maybe future success stories from the country.
• 30:42
  And through this, we, we got very well connected, A, with the Finnish government, and B, with the key decision-makers in Brussels.
• 30:49
  And, um, this wasn't obviously planned as such you know, like, if you look at our pitch, right, we didn't write there,"Finland takes over the EU presidency, and this is why we do this stuff." Yeah.
• 30:57
  This, this came as a surprise also for me, but it helped us greatly to be at the right, um, yeah, places with the right people in the room at, at the right time, and many of the, let's say, the EU strategy and, uh, and selling to the Europe HPC program, a lot of this, I think you can kind of bring it back to, um, to these early 2019 days.
• 31:19
  And then COVID, which came on top of this, which what happened there is that basically overnight, governments around the world were creating these kind of rescue plans and rescue budgets for the economy.
• 31:33
  And, um, I, I know very well still, um, in, in Germany, um, I forgot now, now the, the number, but they had a long list of only two line items.
• 31:42
  Um, so maybe around 50, 60 bullet points, each of them not longer than two lines, but each of them was a kind of billion-dollar thing.
• 31:52
  So there was this one point, whatever, point 34 or something like this, saying the German government is going to, um, build at least two quantum computers for two billion euros, and, and somehow it formulated also that they would do this through procurement.
• 32:08
  And, and this was for us the door opener to then start to the German government and say, "Hey, what we do is we build quantum computers, so you better buy a system from us." So these were kind of things, um, also if you … We, we are building or we are running our own chip factory here, and the, the early financing was done by the EIB, the European Investment Bank, from a program that was designed around COVID, so one of those COVID.
• 32:31
  And there are many other, um, e-examples I could give.
• 32:34
  And obviously these are the things you cannot plan as a founder.
• 32:37
  They just happen.
• 32:38
  I think what you need to show as a founder is that you're agile enough to see everything as an opportunity, because many people saw COVID as a threat and, and limiting, but you have to find those, uh, each, each threat also is an opportunity one way or another.
• 32:54
  And I think as a founder, it's your job to turn them around and say, "Hey, maybe it looks bad from the outside, but if you dig deeper, we can make something out of it." And, um, this is what we did during COVID quite a lot.
• 33:06
  That's a great, that's a great story.
• 33:08
  That's a really great story.
• 33:10
  Uh, I was-- And, and one of the questions I've wanted to ask you is a little bit about, and it relates to this COVID story, and it relates to, uh, it relates to the geopolitical theme too, but this kind of shift in your role, and, and it's a shift that you see in a lot of other… We've identified five founder CEO archetypes.
• 33:30
  The most common out of labs, be they in universities or national laboratories, is the scientific steward, like you were.
• 33:38
  Uh, and so you start as a scientist, and you, you know, and that becomes your, you know, you're oriented towards that kind of work early on.
• 33:45
  But then the role changes, and it's up to that founder CEO to shift their activity and profile as well as part of that.
• 33:52
  And you've see, y-you seem to have s-shifted very successfully, um, from that kind of early scientific steward to kind of that visionary narrator, the one who is telling the story.
• 34:05
  You describe it as being the foreign minister of the company, being out there and having these discussions.
• 34:10
  But I think in the context that you've just painted there around COVID, around getting involved with the governments, around, uh, understanding the European projects that are going on, um, which then of course blend into, you know, twenty twenty-five, twenty twenty-six, and the work that we see happening here.
• 34:28
  That kind of shifts your role from,"I just can't remain this kind of, you know, scientist founder.
• 34:34
  I have to become a storyteller.
• 34:36
  I have to understand what's happening at a policy level so that we may be able to take advantage of it." And of course, the, you know, those opportunities have lots of different benefits, you know, for the company in all different kinds of directions, I'm sure.
• 34:53
  Yeah, I, I, I think that's true.
• 34:55
  And of course, I mean, each, let's say, personality has strengths and weaknesses, and, um, I think you can have great leaders with all different kinds of, of leadership styles.
• 35:05
  And the question is how, how aware are you of what your strengths are and what your weaknesses, um, what your weaknesses are, and then how do you put your strengths kind of at place, you bring them out, and how do you find someone else to cover your weaknesses?
• 35:21
  I think that's the-- Because you should not waste your time trying yourself to be there, uh, and kind of try to get everything done where you're not so good at.
• 35:30
  There's, there's so much to be done anyway, so you better do what you're good at and find someone else, uh, to, to work on your weaknesses.
• 35:37
  Of course, you, you cannot be completely blind on, on some spots.
• 35:41
  Um, but um, for me, I think also what, if I would describe myself, I think I'm, I'm a pretty good listener, and this typically helps, helps also in developing yourself.
• 35:52
  Because if you think about, let's say, the policymakers, they use very different language.
• 35:57
  They have different things that are important for them compared to scientists.
• 36:01
  And, um, in the beginning, obviously, I didn't know how they are talking and, and what's important for them.
• 36:07
  Um, so I was mainly listening and, and trying to understand, and then trying to repeat what they were saying in their own words.
• 36:15
  And it's actually, it's the same, the same goes even, even more than that, uh, I think I had this effect when I w- I started to pitch to venture capitalists.
• 36:22
  I still remember these very awkward situations where I was asked, for example,"Can you talk a little bit about your cap table, and what does your cap table look like?" So the cap table shows the ownership structure of the, the company, but I didn't know what a cap table is.
• 36:35
  I've never heard this word before.
• 36:37
  So I just said, "Yeah, our cap table looks great. It's a really nice cap table." And, and then I started to dig into this and, and later on, of course, I learned how to talk about cap tables.
• 36:45
  So I think it's, um, it's, it's this, uh, not, not trying, um, trying to do, let's say, everything, but trying to learn, trying to listen and understand, and then use your time wisely in those areas where you're good at, and finding a team.
• 37:00
  And this is the hard part, finding a team that covers your ass for the other part.
• 37:05
  Hmm.
• 37:06
  I mean, it's a very-- Everything you say makes perfect sense.
• 37:11
  I think it's a very, uh… So it's a classic case of it sounds simple, I think, to-- But a lot of people struggle with it because, uh, I think it, uh, it requires a lot of emotional maturity and underlying confidence that whatever I don't have, you know, I'm okay at this and this, but I'm lousy at that, that, that, that, and I can just keep going at all the things I'm lousy at.
• 37:41
  But I have enough confidence to ask for help, and I'm not gonna try to bullshit it Yeah.
• 37:50
  And of course, they are, um, people also might have different expectations, right?
• 37:56
  One thing is what you think you should do and what your role is.
• 37:59
  The other thing is- Yeah … and, and this, uh, for me, this was maybe one of those eye-opening, uh, moments.
• 38:06
  So we, as said, we were four founders, and I always considered and k- I still kind of consider us equal.
• 38:12
  But of course, as CEO, you're kind of primus inter pares kind of a thing.
• 38:17
  And, um, I think it was Juha, one of our co-founders, saying to me that, "Yeah, actually, I would like that you step up, and even though we are co-founders, be the one who's up there and be in charge and, and carries the thing." Um, so yeah, sometimes it's also the expectation of, of people.
• 38:33
  So if it, if it was kind of just for me, I would have been happy to just be one of the four, uh, or whatever- Yeah … right?
• 38:38
  But it just doesn't- Yeah … work maybe in a company set up.
• 38:41
  Someone needs to step up and say, "Okay, this is now how we are going to do it." So this is why I think you're not working in, in a vacuum and in isolation, and people might have expectations, and this means sometimes you need to develop yourself into a direction which might be uncomfortable in the beginning.
• 38:57
  Yeah.
• 38:57
  So for me, actually, it, it, it still feels a little bit uncomfortable saying, "Okay, I am the figurehead, and right, this is what we're gonna do." But it has to be done, so you have to develop yourself in this direction, and it just came as an expectation from my team towards me.
• 39:11
  Yeah, that's interesting.
• 39:14
  Was that the most uncomfortable transition or point of the journey or, or shift in transition?
• 39:24
  But I don't know what is the most uncomfortable.
• 39:26
  Of course, I'm, let's say, if you wish, I'm, I'm more like a, a sunny side CEO.
• 39:32
  So I think I can be this motivational figurehead, and I can go out there and say, "This is what we do, and it's gonna be great, and, and we're gonna win it." Mm. But of course, the world is not always rosy and shiny.
• 39:43
  So there are also- Yeah … situations that are more and more difficult to handle.
• 39:47
  And especially- Yeah in the startup, um, every two years or so you're running out of money unless you raise new money, right?
• 39:53
  That's the, the rule of the game more or less.
• 39:56
  Um, and, uh, we had a similar situation when I think until around '21 it was still quite okay to raise money for, for tech companies because we have zero interest.
• 40:06
  People were throwing capital, um, at, uh, Edit.
• 40:10
  But then things changed, and, um, the, the whole investment scene, um, became a bit more tricky.
• 40:15
  And, and we also felt this, and fundraising became more tricky.
• 40:19
  Um, we didn't sell as quickly those computers, so this was one learning.
• 40:23
  If you sell to governments, it works, but governments are not the fastest institutions.
• 40:27
  Yeah.
• 40:28
  Yeah.
• 40:28
  Um, so it was clear that things are going, um… or that it's going to be a bit more tough times, um, and, and certain decisions need to be done.
• 40:38
  And also we had to do certain changes also on the people side in the company.
• 40:43
  And clearly these are not the things that, that I shine at.
• 40:46
  And, uh, this again is something- Mm-hmm then in the end where actually we, uh, we took in help.
• 40:50
  Um, and in this first particular case even we went to this, uh, what we called then co-CEO set-up.
• 40:56
  Um- Yes … and we covered the situation.
• 40:58
  Basically I had someone on my side, Mikko, another Mikko, but a great that, that he joined back in the day.
• 41:03
  I think we wouldn't be here, um, without him kind of guiding and, and leading the company through this difficult time and doing a lot of the tough- Yeah work back then.
• 41:12
  You see that happen occasionally.
• 41:14
  I haven't seen it actually that often, but you do see it and hear of it occasionally.
• 41:18
  What was that like for you guys?
• 41:20
  You know, what was that decision like?
• 41:22
  How did you guys divide up responsibility?
• 41:25
  You know, what did the company think about it from your perspective?
• 41:28
  How did it impact your role?
• 41:32
  I think you can always agree on paper how you do things, and, and we had a very clear story.
• 41:37
  So I would still be the person who does the kind of external work, talking to investors, journalists, politicians, and, um, I would cover still the technology, um, part.
• 41:48
  Ed Mikko is more the, the business and operational person, and he makes all of those changes that were needed back in the day.
• 41:54
  And I think from a story perspective, this was very clear.
• 41:58
  Of course, reality is, is sometimes different then because there are sometimes gray areas where it's maybe not so clear.
• 42:06
  And also people, of course, if there are, if there are two persons at the top, people try to play the game, right?
• 42:13
  And they maybe go to… with one topic to one person and with another topic to a, to another person.
• 42:18
  So even though it sounds easy on paper, it's not the most straightforward thing to implement in reality.
• 42:23
  I think we did a pretty good job and we really managed to kind of bring the company on, on very good track where we are today.
• 42:30
  Um, but yeah, the exercise wasn't as easy as we thought it was when we met, when we were making the plans.
• 42:36
  But I think our team stand behind it.
• 42:38
  They appreciated that, that there were certain- Yeah … um, structure then and, and things were moving forward.
• 42:44
  Yeah.
• 42:44
  A- are there situations you feel that warrant a co-CEO structure?
• 42:53
  Well, I think each company needs to find solution, a solution for, uh, for- Mm-hmm… the specific situations that they're in there, and I think th- any situation can also be, um, solved in a, in a different setup because one thing is how you call it, and the other thing how you live it.
• 43:08
  I think the whole structure, how we lived it, you could have also called it a CEO and COO structure.
• 43:14
  We, we didn't have a chief operating officer, but we thought some of the decisions he needs to make are so big, so it kind of justifies this co-CEO setup.
• 43:22
  Um, I think when you have these very scientific founders who are the figurehead and then they have this formal CEO role, you need to have supporting teams around them.
• 43:33
  And whether you call them co-CEO or COO or whatever, chief business officer, I think that's not so much- Mm … the point.
• 43:39
  I think the point is more that these very scientific founders, um, I think it's good if they have the more managerial and operational people around them to support them growing the business.
• 43:52
  Yes.
• 43:53
  You are, um, you know, shifting forward a little bit.
• 43:56
  You are, uh, uh, you know, moving into a position where IQM will debut on the public markets later this year, uh, in, in the US.
• 44:08
  How, uh, how do you see that changing your role, if at all?
• 44:16
  Well, of course you will be more in the spotlight.
• 44:19
  Um, if you're a public company, the media attention is just different.
• 44:22
  You're covered by all kinds of analysts, financial analysts, technical analysts.
• 44:27
  Um, people like your friends will be watching your stock price and, um, right?
• 44:32
  So the, the point is, uh, when you're private, usually what you see from the outside is the success stories and the, the funding rounds and, and these are- Yeah moments in time which typically happen every two years or something like this.
• 44:46
  This is the rhythm.
• 44:48
  But of course, now, um, let's say if the tech markets go down, your stock might go down even though your business is, is not going down, right?
• 44:56
  So I think there's much more visibility, um, from, um, from your shareholders and stakeholders.
• 45:03
  Um, so I think this is, uh, what's gonna change.
• 45:06
  Of course, I have always been, um, kind of present in the public.
• 45:10
  There are many newspaper articles, and so it's not that I was completely living in, uh, somehow under the, the radar.
• 45:17
  Um, but I think the level of scrutiny is different.
• 45:19
  Also, the level of scrutiny for processes in the company.
• 45:22
  So the way we work, the diligence, um, how, how we do things, uh, on the financial side, on the reporting side, but also on the communication side.
• 45:30
  So there will be certain changes, but ultimately the reason why we did this was that we are running a business and, and we have the goal to make it a profitable business, and we think that it supports our business, and this is the way I see it.
• 45:43
  So it's not that… Um, of course, it's great to have this kind of IPO moment in your life, but the purpose of the exercise is not to be there and ring the bell.
• 45:52
  This is a nice thing that hopefully happens then at, at some point.
• 45:56
  But the purpose of this is really to prepare us for the future and for success and make sure we have all the instruments at hand to grow the business in the future as well.
• 46:06
  Mm. And, uh, and remaining vertically integrated and continuing to produce full stack computers, that's an expensive endeavor, uh, uh, as well.
• 46:19
  So the public markets clearly offer you optionality on that in a way that private markets may not be able to accommodate.
• 46:27
  Yeah, that's correct.
• 46:28
  I think this is one of, one of the reasons.
• 46:29
  Another reason is actually, and I, I already mentioned that we sell a lot to governments, and this-- in this part of the business, it's a lot about trust and building long-term relationships.
• 46:40
  This is actually something for me personally also that matters.
• 46:43
  Many of my kind of journeys, I have very long-term relationships, and it's the same with, with governments.
• 46:47
  Of course, governments might change, but, uh, people in the system stay.
• 46:52
  So, um, being a public company, given you are under much more scrutiny and your business plan is under much more scrutiny, it actually creates trust also amongst our key customers that we will be there in the future, and that what we do is right because many people and banks and analysts and lawyers have looked at it.
• 47:12
  Yeah.
• 47:13
  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 47:15
  The, um, the journey as a founder CEO to public market CEO is one that I think, you know, if I think about some of the big ones in tech that most of us can probably, uh, cite, you think about Elon Musk, you think about Zuckerberg.
• 47:33
  Um, obviously, if you go back far enough, you can think about Gates.
• 47:37
  Uh, and there, and there are many others.
• 47:40
  The, um, you know, the journey that a company goes on, uh, you know, when it becomes public, it's a transformation in terms of management practice.
• 47:49
  You referred to it earlier as the process piece, and that's right.
• 47:53
  And then obviously the discipline you need, uh, when you're addressing the markets and that rigor and attention to hitting those milestones, which to be fair, you guys have always Done a pretty good job of meeting those milestones.
• 48:08
  I think that's one of the reasons you guys have been able to raise so well.
• 48:13
  You know, it, are there a bunch of new things you need to learn?
• 48:18
  So, you know, to, you know, to quote you earlier, you had to learn the language of venture, you had to learn the language of policymaking, now you're moving into a public company CEO.
• 48:27
  Are there, like, a bunch of new things you're gonna have to learn about, about being a public company CEO as well?
• 48:33
  And of course, it's again, different types of vocabulary that you might use.
• 48:37
  Um, they are, uh, when you, when, you know, go… We are currently preparing the, the filing, uh, for it, and there's lots of language in this document, um, used.
• 48:47
  And of course, in, in these investor and analyst reports, they're referring to it.
• 48:50
  Uh, I think the main difference also for me is being more careful with these, what people call forward-looking statements.
• 48:57
  So what is actually going to happen because you will be made accountable for it.
• 49:02
  And as an early-stage founder, this is all you do.
• 49:05
  You tell people that this is what we're gonna do, right?
• 49:08
  This is how you motivate them, how you bring them behind you, and now you're not allowed to do this anymore, uh, at least, uh, so much.
• 49:14
  Um, and I think, yeah, um, sometimes now I have to re- remind myself when I'm speaking that, okay, now I, I need to be careful and maybe take a left turn or right turn.
• 49:24
  Uh, in my answer.
• 49:24
  Yeah, now it's getting serious.
• 49:26
  Yeah.
• 49:27
  But I think for so many areas in deep tech, quantum computing is one.
• 49:30
  But you could look at, I don't know, m- new types of energy generation.
• 49:34
  I think about nuclear fusion being another.
• 49:36
  There is, you know, in quantum, we're still, you know, we're in the process of trying to build 120 qubit, you know, uh, quantum computers, and then there's gonna be a leap after that and a leap after that.
• 49:47
  And we're a long way from kind of that, you know, that golden zone of a million to 20 million qubits where whatever we imagine is the quantum, the magic of quantum computing happening is gonna be happening there in that, in that zone.
• 50:00
  So we still have a ways to go, although, uh, you know, as you guys do a very good job of pointing out, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of application, there's a lot of utility at these lower levels too, at these lower qubit levels, uh, as well.
• 50:16
  But the challenge of doing what you've just described, of saying y- yes, we need to excite people about the market, but now that we're public, we have to bring them along the journey with us.
• 50:27
  We have to hit our milestones.
• 50:29
  So we have to be really, really careful.
• 50:32
  We have to kind of professionalize every element of what we're doing so that we can increase our ability to accurately forecast.
• 50:40
  Yeah.
• 50:41
  No, that's true.
• 50:41
  And of course, I mean, this is generally a challenge in, in deep tech, and you already kind of referred to other technologies like fusion and the like.
• 50:49
  I think where quantum computing a little bit helps is that the milestones are a bit more granular.
• 50:55
  So I think in fusion, obviously, you have this big goal of kind of building a system where more energy comes out than, than you put in, and it's quite binary in a way.
• 51:03
  Um, you have other fields, let's say pharma, where you maybe have a few milestones, these approval steps and whether you get into the next phase or not, but they are, uh, there's typically a few years between them.
• 51:15
  In quantum computing, since the systems that we build are, are quite complex and contain many components, we can build up a much more granular roadmap, and this means we can continuously report on, on progress, which I think makes the story telling easier.
• 51:31
  If you, if you have, like, the quarterly earnings calls, and every time you have to say, "Still in three years we're gonna hit the milestones, and in three years we're gonna hit the milestone," uh, and maybe it's more difficult than when you say, "Yeah, look, for this quarter, the goal was to develop this product feature or that product feature, and, and next quarter we're gonna do this." So I think this is where building a complex system helps because you can be more granular and more s- kind of, um, specific in the goals that you set yourself.
• 51:56
  As long as the market weighs those milestones in the way that you want, I guess.
• 52:04
  So if it's qubit count, you know, that's one thing.
• 52:07
  If it's, uh, if it's the development of another component or a subsystem or whatever, the, you know, you know, it's something else.
• 52:13
  But it's, I guess, a matter of building up that trust with the market- Yeah … with the analysts and everyone following the market and the bankers and so on.
• 52:20
  Yeah.
• 52:20
  I think the good thing for us is again, turning bad things into good things.
• 52:25
  So Europe is usually late with technology.
• 52:27
  Um, but the good thing from this perspective is that we are not the first company to, to go public.
• 52:32
  There are already a few out there- Yeah.
• 52:34
  Yes, there are … and they have been educating the market for us.
• 52:36
  So now when I go into these investor and analyst discussions, I don't need to explain them anymore from zero what a qubit is and how everything works.
• 52:45
  We can go right into the topic, and I can explain to them why IQM is different and maybe better than what others are doing.
• 52:52
  Yeah.
• 52:53
  Let's, um, let's, uh, shift a little bit.
• 52:56
  I wanna kind of get into culture, and I wanna talk, uh, a little bit about, um, I guess the evolution of IQM.
• 53:05
  Uh, it started as a, as a Finnish company.
• 53:08
  It's now a truly global company.
• 53:10
  You have offices throughout Europe, Asia, and, uh, and, and North America.
• 53:15
  Um, how… You know, can you talk a little bit about the kind of development of its culture and what, and how you see your role in that?
• 53:27
  Yeah, I think, um, we have pretty much lived a very, let's say, transparent and honest culture, which is Nordic, um, values, I would say.
• 53:40
  So you see a little bit, um, of, of this, um, there.
• 53:44
  We have also been building, let's say, a kind of bottom-up and hopefully still relatively flat culture, um, in, in a way that decision-making is a lot driven from kind of from the bottom where the experts are.
• 53:58
  Of course, I know about quantum computing, but I'm not anymore the deepest expert in, in everything.
• 54:03
  Um, so, um, we, uh, we've been running it like this, and I think this is really influenced by the scientific heritage where we come from.
• 54:13
  So on, on, on the university and academic sides, you have to be honest.
• 54:18
  There's no bullshit, right?
• 54:19
  It's data, um, and, and you have to prove it.
• 54:21
  Um, often you have to kind of even mathematically prove it.
• 54:24
  Um, and, um, I, I… We have, uh, one, one saying that goes like, "The best argument wins." I think that's very important.
• 54:33
  You don't wanna have kind of office politics.
• 54:36
  You should do what makes sense for the business and, um, I'm, I'm trying to preserve this as much as I can, still having my scientific roots.
• 54:45
  So often when I hear statements where someone claims that this is the fact or, or this is thing, uh, I, I try to ask,"Okay, can you show me the data for it?
• 54:53
  Is this really true?" Um, and, um, um, I think it's… This is im-important also in the way we kind of represent the company to the outside world.
• 55:04
  So there is a lot of hype in quantum, and there's lots of kind of claims out there, some very wild claims, and we always try to be the company that's the trustworthy long-term partner where you know what we say, it has kind of scientific evidence behind it.
• 55:20
  We, we know how to do the engineering and, and to implement it, um, and the timelines are realistic.
• 55:25
  Um, and, um, this is the, the culture we have been building so far, and I think even though we have been growing, um, now, uh, both in team size but also distribution, so we have people around the world, it is still very much the culture that we are trying to build.
• 55:39
  Yes.
• 55:40
  Yes.
• 55:41
  It-- You know, the Finns, well, I'll say the Nordic cultures, as you rightly point out, are-- tend to be very good at that, at, at being straight, being clear and honest about where things are at, or at least following the facts.
• 55:57
  They appear to have a pretty good internal locus of control for avoiding hyperbole.
• 56:05
  Is that the sa-- You know, do you find there are cultural variations on that depending on where you are?
• 56:12
  Yeah, sure.
• 56:13
  And of course, also you will find at some point subcultures in your team.
• 56:19
  Even so within, let's say, the engineering team, but also the sales team usually has a different culture than the engineering team, right?
• 56:26
  They are hunters.
• 56:27
  They wanna go out, and they wanna sell.
• 56:29
  And, and the engineers, they want to make sure that whatever plan they have they can implement it.
• 56:34
  Um, but also then within the engineering, let's say we, we are running a clean room.
• 56:38
  We do chip production.
• 56:40
  Everything has to follow very precisely the plans, and there should be no variations whatsoever in there.
• 56:46
  Um, so very strict.
• 56:48
  Um, on the other side, we have algorithm experts and, and theory experts.
• 56:54
  They work in front of a whiteboard.
• 56:56
  Um, they can come in any time of the day.
• 56:58
  They can work at night, right?
• 57:00
  If you work in the clean room, the machine has to be kind of running at a certain point of time.
• 57:04
  So even within the engineering team, um, we have actually different subcultures depending on, on what they do.
• 57:11
  But then of course, you also have differences depending on where people come from.
• 57:16
  So people- Mm … in the Nordics on average, I would say, tend to have a different culture than maybe in Spain in the way they talk, how much they talk … how they use the time.
• 57:27
  Um, and of course you have to deal with this.
• 57:28
  And, um, one thing is, of course, to be open, uh, for different cultures, so everything is okay, but you need to, you need to be clear, like why do people do this?
• 57:39
  But I don't think you should try, uh, to… At least in our case, we want to be diverse from this geographic perspective and, and welcoming, um, to, to different subcultures.
• 57:49
  But of course, it needs to be brought together in the end.
• 57:52
  And again, it's about finding the strengths and weaknesses and then making the best out of it, and I think this is the, the challenge, um, that, uh, that is there on the management side that people need to find out, "Okay, what is now the strengths in this particular subset?
• 58:07
  How do I maybe bring it- Yeah … to some other team which has a weakness there- Yeah … and how they can help out?" Yeah.
• 58:13
  Um- recruiting senior managers or senior leaders for your business.
• 58:22
  Um, founder CEOs can find that a challenge sometimes.
• 58:28
  If they've come straight from, say, the lab, they've grown this wonderful business, as in your case, and now you've got to recruit people who are gonna have, in some cases, decades more experience than you.
• 58:39
  H- you know, is there a… How do you handle that?
• 58:43
  A lot of founder CEOs have struggled with that, or they struggle with kind of imposing authority or credibility or whatever it is.
• 58:52
  It, it's a, it's a challenge we wind up having a lot of discussions around.
• 58:56
  How do you handle it?
• 58:57
  Yeah.
• 58:58
  No, it's definitely a challenge, um, because also you have different stakeholders with different expectations.
• 59:04
  Typically, for these, let's say, C-level, high-level roles, there's a board and your investors, and they might have certain expectations.
• 59:13
  Um, often I think still there's a view that you need to bring in people who are very experienced with corporate background, but then there's the question about cultural fit, right?
• 59:21
  If they have never worked in a startup in a more chaotic environment, it, it might be challenging, and we have seen this.
• 59:27
  We, we did- we went through this also in, in IQM.
• 59:30
  Then you have your leadership team, which is already there.
• 59:33
  People might have positions, they might have ambitions, and maybe you put someone on top of them or next to them, and they might not find, uh, or might, might not like this or the person that, that you put there.
• 59:44
  And for example, for me, this was one of the key learnings.
• 59:47
  Maybe I was too naive.
• 59:49
  I thought that if I get along with two people, since I get along with both of them, naturally, they will also get along with each other.
• 59:55
  And, uh, but obviously this is- … this is not the case, right?
• 59:59
  And so I think, yeah, finding out that you really have to think about this cultural fit, and it's not enough that you can work with the person, but it's actually important that they fit into the team, um, is the same thing.
• 1:00:11
  And then there's the whole organization, like there's expectation in the, let's say, broader team, all the employees.
• 1:00:16
  So they might think, "Okay, we are struggling day to day with these challenges, and now they're hiring people.
• 1:00:21
  How are they actually helping we- me with my day-to-day challenge?
• 1:00:24
  How do you make- Mm this connection?" And then finding the right profile that somehow satisfies all of those expectations, this is really a challenging task.
• 1:00:34
  It is.
• 1:00:34
  It is.
• 1:00:34
  It is.
• 1:00:35
  It is.
• 1:00:37
  Um- How do you unwind?
• 1:00:41
  Sorry, say that again.
• 1:00:42
  How do you?
• 1:00:43
  How do you unwind?
• 1:00:44
  Unwind.
• 1:00:45
  Do you unwind?
• 1:00:46
  Yeah.
• 1:00:48
  Uh, well, I was already referring to that.
• 1:00:50
  I mean, we had this time where also things… There was a lot of pressure and, and, uh, we, we had struggled with, with fundraising, and I think there's always a risk for a founder to work a lot, to get a lot of pressure from all different directions, which might bring you into this downwards spiral, which i- in the worst case, ends up in some kind of burnout or a similar situation.
• 1:01:12
  Mm. So of course, um, one of your most important jobs as a CEO and founder is to prevent this from happening.
• 1:01:19
  Um, you might not- Mm … have it on your agenda list, but it is there all the time, that you don't go down the, the spiral.
• 1:01:25
  Um, because when you're down there, you're not helpful at all.
• 1:01:28
  You might have all the other ask- tasks on your agenda, but you will not execute on any of them because you didn't make sure this number one task of being kind of on, on top of your also mental, uh, fitness is, is super important.
• 1:01:41
  And this is what I realized back then.
• 1:01:43
  Actually, I was… I was actually on vacation in Canada, and it was one of those times where I was visiting a friend.
• 1:01:50
  One of my best friends lives in Canada meanwhile with his family.
• 1:01:53
  I was visiting them close to the Rocky Mountains, and, uh, we're going skiing.
• 1:01:58
  Um, but given that Canada also has, uh, this part of Canada is, I think, has 9 or 10 hours time difference, so I was waking up early in the morning, and I was lying there in the bed and thinking about, like, "Shit, this is… Something doesn't feel well anymore." I get triggered by little things, right?
• 1:02:13
  Like emails, comments.
• 1:02:15
  They kind of go under my skin.
• 1:02:17
  It shouldn't be like this.
• 1:02:17
  It shouldn't feel like this.
• 1:02:20
  Um, and I decided there in the bed in the morning that I need to get out of this, and I… What always helped me, um, as a person was doing a lot of sports.
• 1:02:30
  Mm. And I checked my calendar, and I just, I just didn't do it anymore because the calendar was just overflowing with other tasks I wasn't prioritizing well.
• 1:02:38
  So I decided, "Okay, this needs to change." And to force me to change, I… Right away, I signed up to run a marathon.
• 1:02:46
  Uh, this was in March.
• 1:02:47
  I signed up for a marathon in November, so let's say half a year later, and I decided I would now start practicing basically on a daily basis, um, for it.
• 1:02:56
  And this is still what I do.
• 1:02:58
  I've been since then running a couple of them, and I still go a lot of running, so this is basically my everyday time that I take.
• 1:03:06
  Um, and other than that, of course, I have my family.
• 1:03:09
  I have friends.
• 1:03:09
  Uh, I go a lot with, with my wife.
• 1:03:11
  We go hiking into the nature.
• 1:03:13
  I visit still, uh, I visit my old school friends at home or student friends in Munich.
• 1:03:18
  Um, so I have, uh, these, these things.
• 1:03:20
  But yeah, typically it's detoxing on all levels.
• 1:03:24
  So when I go running, I don't take any headphones, music, phone, no nothing with me.
• 1:03:29
  I just go me, myself, and I into the woods and running.
• 1:03:33
  Old school.
• 1:03:34
  Yeah.
• 1:03:35
  Old school.
• 1:03:35
  That's great.
• 1:03:38
  And how often are you able to do that?
• 1:03:40
  How o- you know, how often will you go running?
• 1:03:42
  How often will you take a break, take a holiday?
• 1:03:46
  Well, I, I have the goal to go out every day.
• 1:03:50
  Of course, it doesn't necessarily happen every day, but I, I try.
• 1:03:53
  So maybe I, during the week, there's one day where I just don't manage because it's too busy or I'm traveling or something.
• 1:04:00
  Um, but the nice thing about running is also when I'm traveling, um, there's a gym in basically every hotel, and I just go on, on the treadmill there and just take an, an hour off.
• 1:04:08
  Um, vacation, well, it's the typical thing.
• 1:04:11
  Like, I go, uh, uh, on, on summer vacation.
• 1:04:14
  There's Christmas, Easter breaks.
• 1:04:16
  So, um- Yeah … but of course then as a founder, even though you're on vacation, you're never really off.
• 1:04:21
  You have your phone with you, and if something is burning, as a CEO, you, you have to be there, right?
• 1:04:27
  And so it's not so that, um, I, I hang out.
• 1:04:30
  And I'm not, also not the person who just hangs out two weeks on the beach and, and does nothing.
• 1:04:34
  Uh- Yeah … so when we go on vacation, yeah, we typically go and, uh, and go hiking, or last year we went for a, a bicycle trip, actually, once around Taiwan, um, with a, with a backpack.
• 1:04:45
  So stuff like this is what we do.
• 1:04:48
  Amazing.
• 1:04:49
  Amazing.
• 1:04:50
  Jan, thank you so much for your time today.
• 1:04:54
  This has been wonderful.
• 1:04:55
  Um, I, uh, I hope you've enjoyed it.
• 1:04:59
  I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
• 1:05:00
  It was great.
• 1:05:01
  Uh, as you said, uh, it's sometimes good to take time and, and think about it and also talk about it, so I, I really enjoyed also, uh, bringing back all of those memories from the early days.
• 1:05:10
  These are typically- Yeah, yeah, yeah… good memories, so thanks for that.
• 1:05:13
  Great, and all of the best of luck to you and to the team at IQM.
• 1:05:17
  Thank you.
• 1:05:18
  You've been listening to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast, brought to you by Deep Tech Leaders.
• 1:05:25
  This podcast has been produced by Beauxhaus.
• 1:05:27
  You can find out more about us on LinkedIn, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.