Latest / Relatively Functional Dads / Episode 009 - WHY GOD WENT SILENT AT 2AM w/ Zach Unger

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Episode 009 - WHY GOD WENT SILENT AT 2AM w/ Zach Unger · Relatively Functional Dads

• The Boys And Audio: welcome to the Relatively Functional Dads podcast for fathers doing their best and learning every day. We're just three relatives walking through faith, fatherhood, and real life together. That was me. ⁓ experts here, just honest conversations about the wins, the struggles, and the moments that shape us as men and dads. Some days we've got it together, other days we're just trying to get to bedtime, but we keep showing up. And if you're dad... ⁓ In the middle of it too, you're in the right place. Let's journey through this together. Audio: ⁓ it's ⁓ 2 ⁓ and most of us been there. Your child's been crying for three, maybe four hours. You've tried everything. You've done the ⁓ rocking baby to sleep, you've done the football hold, you've done the whole ⁓ pray to Jesus, wipe the bottom, find another passy, whatever it is, maybe swapped back and forth with wifey a couple times and ⁓ In the darkness of the night, you let out one final prayer, and it's a ⁓ God help me. ⁓ more of a a plea than anything. And ⁓ crickets kind of comes back silent. Well, not completely silent, baby's still crying. And ⁓ eventually around 3 30, baby gets to sleep, and you get three and a half hours of sleep. You wake up and you do the whole thing all over again the next day. And ⁓ if you've ever been there, you can begin to understand, understand how discouraging. ⁓ even how much you begin to dread sleeping at night. And the problem is your physical health then begins to leak into your emotional health, which then leaks into your spiritual. So ⁓ many of us here have been in those moments in our lives, whether it's explicitly sleep training or maybe it's just ⁓ unanswered prayers in general. So today ⁓ what we're gonna be talking about is ⁓ what does it look like to journey through fatherhood, the good, the hard? ⁓ but then what happens ultimately whenever God seems to be silent? And ⁓ we got a really good friend ⁓ here to join us. I'll introduce him in a moment. ⁓ but a little housekeeping if you are new to the podcast. My name is Buddy. I got three kids under five. I got a six-week old that was up just last night for a couple hours in the middle of the night. So running on adrenaline, running on a little extra caffeine. All of this is very applicable in this moment. But this is a a podcast by dads, four dads that are in the trenches. We're in it right now. Producer Noah behind the camera has got two under three. And ⁓ my friend Zach here is going to share a little bit about his recent fatherhood journey as he's stepped into this last couple years. So if you're new, our encouragement is ⁓ be a part of the community. ⁓ drop a comment. If you're listening on YouTube, leave a review. That would help us out. If you could subscribe, that would help us out. That's all we ask. But how we want to serve you is content every couple weeks. On top of that, you're going to ⁓ just know that we're praying over you guys. If you want to send us a DM on Instagram, if you want to send us an email, would love to know how we can pray and support. Also, would love to hear questions that we can answer. I'm gonna rip one off here in a moment. We're gonna talk a little bit ⁓ on a comment that we recently got a really great question, segment ideas, funny things that you've done, screw-ups, laugh at my pain moments. We want to hear those things. So drop a comment, a DM, message us, email. We would love to hear from you. ⁓ because we want this to be a community. ⁓ we want to do this together. So, yeah, bringing on a really good friend, Zach. Zach's actually known producer Noah longer than I have. ⁓ and ⁓ yeah, he's he's really kind of married into this friendship. We share ⁓ I was about to say share wives together. We don't ⁓ we do not share wives. Ooh, ⁓ yeah, start it over. ⁓ our f our wives been friends for a long, long and really ⁓ moving up to Indianapolis three years ago. ⁓ knew it was a no-brainer just to reconnect, man. And the last three years has been a a joy watching you become a dad. And ⁓ thanks for helping me acclimate to Indy and ⁓ thanks for supporting the podcast and we only bring on dads or parents if you've listened to Morgan talk or Derek talk in recent episodes that we see practicing these things. So the things that we're talking about today, ⁓ they were easy to talk about. ⁓ we've talked about this A ad nauseum, ⁓ whether it's Friday morning coffees, whether it's just at the park on Tuesday nights. ⁓ so you're a practitioner of what we're doing. Not perfect, but moving in the direction that we all want to be. So that's the goal. Yeah, man. So welcome. Yeah. But before I start, I'll I do want to commend you guys. I I'm a avid podcast listener. This is new for me being on the other side of the microphone. just for me, from for the listeners, I I know sometimes ⁓ When you find content to engage with, sometimes, at least for me, I can be drawn to content, but there's question about maybe the character behind the voice. ⁓ and so I just want to affirm for the new listener, for the old listener out there, these guys are practitioners. I have loved just getting to parent with them and watch them practice this stuff, not perfectly, but moving in the right direction. ⁓ so for what it's worth, you can trust their character. The content's really good, but the character's even better. So Grateful for you guys. Grateful you guys taking the leap out to start this thing and what you're doing. It's cool, man. We've always said we want it to be formative for us first as well as the people on it. So even just last few days thinking through these things has been formative. I joke ⁓ my six week old had the worst night of sleep she's had in multiple weeks, maybe ever. I was up most most of the middle of the night. And then you you were talking about how ⁓ Caseen had a pretty rough few days too. So it's funny how ⁓ yeah, the timing of this is phenomenal as we are going to share some things that we are still actively processing. And ⁓ and a lot of it is around this area of not just how to sleep train your child. There's gonna be a lot less. There are courses you can buy and ⁓ specific social media accounts just for that, but really what it's like whenever ⁓ you are physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually exhausted. What does it look like to continue to show up as a dad, as a son of God? How does that change your relationship with the father? So that's what we're gonna be jumping into ⁓ here today. But ⁓ tell us a little bit, Zach, about your family. I don't want to just hear like my wife's name's Emma, but I want to hear it through the lens of like ⁓ some big dad energy. So you got a win from the last couple of weeks that you're like, we like to puff our chests out. We like to be proud sometimes. We're also gonna talk about some of the things we're not proud of. ⁓ but yeah, anything that comes to mind, share share a little bit with us about your family, but through the lens of some big dad energy. Yeah, I have a 21 month old. He'll be two in September. So whatever that number of months is. Yeah, he's almost two. ⁓ little boy named Kaysen. he is all about anything that has a motor, started with tractors and then anything that could remotely be perceived as a tractor. He is a huge fan. ⁓ so we naturally really love the lawnmower. A few weeks ago, Emma, my wife, was on praise team. And so I got Caseon up and got him got him going in the morning. We got to church on time. I know. ⁓ got him into class. I went to service, had a good day, got back to the house. Emma still had a service to go. And I thought, nah, we gotta mow the lawn. And so we've got this little janky thing from the eighties, is what it looks like. It's like essentially a a nylon seat with backpack straps hooked onto it. So I loaded him up in that thing. threw it on, he's riding on my back, he's got his little headphones on, and we mowed the entire l yard. And I'm thinking like halfway through, I'm like, dude, if we can just get progress mowing the yard, like this is a win before mom comes home. We got the entire yard mowed. We got him lunch. We got the dishes done. And I was like getting him ready to go down for a nap when she walked through the door. And I felt like I just murdered it. I mean I'm flexing on everyone. Baby just stay out a little while. Then he didn't sleep. And it was like really humbling back to the topic of this episode. But Yeah, it was no yeah it felt great. Do you feel sometimes it is easier when your wife's not there? Yeah, I mean it's funny I I was listening to something recently and and one of the dads was talking about how when mom's not around like baby just doesn't push back as much. And I hadn't I hadn't connected the dots in our life until hearing that. And then I started to watch and like he pushes on her so much harder than he pushes on me. Like he was pushing on tonight before I came over. He's pushing on her and just like challenging, feels like he can toe the line a little bit more. And I took him outside and we walked up and down the sidewalk for an hour and he was happy as a clam and just like didn't test me. And yeah, it's definitely easier for for some reason, which I feel so sad about. ⁓ gosh man. It is frustrating 'cause even like I mean, she'll just come home and walk into the room and sometimes my kids' attitude changes and ⁓ it's it's wild. I I think some of it too is my mentality. Like so tonight ⁓ Madeline was was breastfeeding Karis, so ⁓ I had to bathe both older kids, bathe both older kids or get them both ready for bed. And ⁓ that's why I'm so exhausted right now. 'Cause usually we split some of that up and like that's a that's a hand all hands on deck forty five minutes. And she was she was here and you can't really time like the feeding of your your newborn. So it it hit me. I was like, dang, I'm gonna have to do all this, right? Whenever we realized she had to feed. But if she just wasn't even here, my mindset going into it would be big dad energy. I'm about to own this, I'm about to crush this. So that's what I'm trying to ⁓ take that same mindset of even when she's around the ownership as if she wasn't. Because I'll I'll share some of that accountability there. So I'm the one I had this week, well, back to finishing ⁓ what you were saying. I think if you can make memories while getting something accomplished. ⁓ yeah. It's huge. It's huge. It's huge. Cause I I got to the point where I the first time I tried mowing with him, we got this contraption. It was something that Emma's dad used when the girls were little. So it's old old. That's cool. ⁓ and the first time I threw it on, I'm like, I'm like rucking while I push mow my yard. Like, this is gonna be awful, dude. Yeah. And I remember being out there and I wasn't listening to anything because I was trying to make sure that I could hear him, and it was just quiet and he was so peaceful and still and I remember finishing mowing the first time and I was like this is actually really fun like this was really enjoyable to actually go out and so I I think he likes it but he asks to get off about halfway through now and I'm like no no no come on bro stay stay with me the novelty is going off yeah yeah yeah yeah plus the quads get a little extra worse I mean you're like triple triple multitasking there so ⁓ similar thing we have a jogging stroller and I was like I don't know if Karis is old enough for this but we're about to find out so beautiful day here in central Indiana yesterday ⁓ Madeline's wanting to get back into exercising lightly. So we have a ⁓ a bicycle with a carrier on the back. So the two older kids hopped in that. We went a little over a mile up the road. There's a farm stand. We have some friends that have chickens. You can buy some eggs there. And ⁓ that we love doing that. So I just I ran behind with the jog controller and ⁓ she pulled the other two. So I'm I'm pushing Karis and she's pulling the kids and ⁓ went kind of the long way home. So I got got three miles in, ⁓ you know, burned You know, thirty, forty five minutes of time and kind of that like after work, not yet dinner time, which is kinda hard. And ⁓ and that made some just quality memories, man. Yeah. I was like, this is the freaking life. Yeah. I'm healthy, my kids aren't crying. I'm coming home to I had smoked chicken wings on the smoker, dude. Yeah. It was just one of those moments where I was like, This is it. And then it was hard. But you know, for that moment it was great. It's it's so f I'm such a type A like love regiment, love schedule. wanna be on time and having children obviously challenges that because it introduces so many new routines and so many constraints and it feels like s it's such a win when you can find the marriage there where like I've learned to be so adaptable. Sure. But then when you can find adaptable solutions that end up accomplishing a bunch of things and it's fun for the family and you're making memories. Yeah, it's awesome. And and knowing that it may not be that way every time. So next time Karis might scream, she slept. She slept the entire time. ⁓ Probably the next few times you mow it'll be progressively less exciting for Cason. But you know, if you can find those things, dads, that you can get something done, but then be present, enjoy the moment, make memories, keep the bar low. Yeah, and celebrate the wins. It's good. Celebrate the wins. All right, speaking of, let's go the other direction. If your son could give you a one star review, what would Caseon say in that one star review of you as a father? ⁓ makes me sleep. The theme of the episode gets upset when I bite people or eat dirt. Bro, he's bit my son a lot. Yeah, dude. He's bit a lot of kids a lot. He's bit me a lot. I think Emma has permanent scars from I mean, he He's like he's crazy, man. He's yeah, he's a biter. He's hilarious. ⁓ yeah, we love him. But yeah, he's You can be aggressive. But you can do it when you're not yet two. Like sex and biting people. Clocks running, dude. Clocks running. You've got a few more months, if not a year, but Yeah. Yeah. I I think ⁓ on a more serious note, like there are things and I think we'll get into this in a little bit. Like my temper is something that I think it's something I've always struggled with. It's something that's been really, really challenging for me. Just emotional response and how to handle all of that and and we'll get really deep into the weeds when we talk about sleep stuff. But yeah, that's still it it's unbelievable how like you get married and then there's this pruning where you start to realize some of the stuff that's still in you that needs to die. Yep. And then you get through a season of early marriage and you start to feel really confident. You're like, man, I'm starting to put some of this stuff to death and I feel really good. And then you have children, all of this new stuff bubbles to the surface. And my temper is something that I've I've really grateful for how much the Lord has worked on me. Like I'm pretty even keel now. It takes a lot to get me riled up. And it's the simplest of stuff. Like like sleep that can get me riled up. And it's like you take this little thing away and all of a sudden it's really challenging. So I think on on a more serious note like that would be the one star. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate your vulnerability. We can all relate. I mean our anger episode has got like tripled the views of any episode we It was great. And it's because it's so relatable in this season. And you know You're angry 'cause you don't have control or you're angry because you're trying your best and still not working. Or there's always something beneath it. ⁓ yeah, I would say for me, ⁓ I suck a little lighter, but I suck at getting my kids out of bed on time. So like especially now when it's like light at like five forty five in the morning here in central Indiana and then it gets dark at I don't know, it's like nine thirty and it's not even dark yet right now. And ⁓ it's kinda crazy. So our kids are all jacked up again, sleepwise, but ⁓ Yeah, like they'll play pretty well in their room. So sometimes I'll just be like, I mean, yeah, we can just leave them in there a little bit longer. Like I'm trying to get something done or I'm helping with one of the other kids and so yeah, Naomi especially would probably say, My dad kind of sucks at getting me out of bed sometimes. So yeah, that was what I thought about. But it's kind of for the greater good. Yeah. Greater good sometimes. But it's all good. It's all good. Okay, well, a little bit about ⁓ you as a dad. Let's jump into that. Some something about you know, holding your kid for the first time and in the months to come, it cracks up something, cracks open something in your head and your heart that you didn't know was there. Yeah. Because if you're a follower of Jesus, ⁓ you've heard about what it means for the father to love you. But if you're a dad and a follower of Jesus, you begin to experience that unconditional love, joy for no reason, s s the willingness to sacrifice. ⁓ willingness to to go to war to protect and to provide and a type what you didn't know was inside of you. But then additionally, like ⁓ sometimes becoming a dad's kind of confusing. We talked about this in our first episode of hey, when we learn to be fathered by God and when we become dads, we learn more about God as father. There's there's also things that in our fatherhood journey make us frustrated with God or confused about God. ⁓ so just curious off the jump, like what has fatherhood shown you about God that you didn't know before before you became a dad. Yeah, I mean it it sounds I mean it's pretty stereotypical. Like a lot of the big stuff. I think one of the things that I've that I've learned is that especially in the Western church, we intellectualize so much of our faith. And so at least my story, ⁓ I felt like I spent a season where I learned so much about the Bible and theology and learning how to think through issues and Where I stood on certain things and and so much of it, I just crammed my head full of information that honestly the the really foundational truths of your belief system, like you are loved by the Creator and you are a child of God and he sings over you. It's like all of these beautiful things, they just get, at least for me, got lumped in with the rest of this intellectualization of my faith. And I think it's really unique. Like there are moments. Doesn't necessarily have to be fatherhood or marriage, but Those certainly qualify. I think there are moments where God opens the gate a little bit from your head to your heart and it becomes real. Where it's not just this the the mechanics of faith working around in your mind so that you can make sense of something. It's like you cannot deny it because of the experience that your heart's had with it. Yeah. If that makes sense. So it does, yeah. the the simplest one, I guess, for me is the love of God. That's been become really, really apparent to me. Like I you start to get a glimpse into it when you see your your son. I think the most practical way that that's played out for me is just presence. Like earlier today, I got home, I was talking about how I took him, took Caseon out when when Emma was making dinner. We spent an hour sitting on the porch looking at our neighbor's motorcycle because he's obsessed with this motorcycle. And then he wanted to get up and walk over and see it. And so he stood up and he hold my hand and walked over and saw it. And then we Walk down the street to the corner and watch some random stranger mow our neighbor's yard and we just stood and clapped for this man who was mowing. I mean, dude, he was so pumped, man. We were jumping over like little cracks in the sidewalk and he's just I'm jumping with him and dude, it was so like it was one of the closest those moments are so like shalom to me. I have no pull of outside like ⁓ what's going with work? I should be productive. But you have to choose that shalom because there are those distractions. Yes. When you can be in that almost like a flow state. We're like, no, I'm gonna just be present. That moment of like, this is so this is what my heart wants. Yeah. Is to just be present with my son and to watch him just enjoy something. Yep. Like it's not there's not an agenda, which sometimes I think I thought with God, like God wants to watch me enjoy things that are on his agenda. Sure. And d to some extent that's probably true. Like he wants you to participate in the work he's doing, but also I think he just enjoys watching you enjoy something. And that's something that kind of revolution my faith. Revolutionized my faith. Yeah. Yeah. The word delight just kinda comes yeah comes to mind. Yeah. Christian hedonism, like God's most glorified, we most delight in him. But I think delight in him goes beyond so much more than what we sometimes say it is of just singing or reading or whatever, maybe talking about him. It's it's all the creation around us. ⁓ okay, so which ones maybe like fatherly traits? You talked about like love as far as ⁓ understanding God's love for you or experiencing God's love, but any traits of God that feel more real to you now, either c good ones or or ones that are kinda like hard to believe. Yeah. I think we'll spend a bulk of the time talking about discipline. Okay. ⁓ It was so hard for me to conceptu I it's it's easy to make the jump from God is not giving me what I want or he's not responding in the way that I think he ought or the way that would make me most comfortable to God doesn't love me or he's cruel or he's whatever. Yeah. and in reality, like I'm watching this play out with my son in real time. ⁓ yeah. There are things where he just absolutely melts down. He cannot believe I'm gonna give this guy a one star rating, he's the worst. Yeah. And it's stuff that's for his good. I won't let him run out in the street when there are cars going. It's like, I'm doing this for your good, man. Why can't you just and and I that has been really helpful, both in the season of of sleep training that we'll talk about, but also just like there's other stuff that's happened since then that has been really helpful for us to okay, God is doing something here. He's disciplining me and it's not a shift in his character. Yep. It's true to his character and it's for my good and it's with the same loving affection that he has. When he delights to be with me watching me do something I enjoy. Yeah. It's the same character, but it's for my good and it just doesn't feel as comfortable to me. And I I was talking to Madeline tonight, not to divulge in case ⁓ I don't want to share too much in case maybe they listen, but we have friends who lost a loved one very tragically and ⁓ they're struggling a lot with it, especially the spiritual side of how could a loving God let this happen, understandably so. And and we were talking about the need when you don't know why God makes a decision. To rely on your n your known understanding of his character. Yeah. And that's kind of what I'm hearing of like, God, I don't know why that I don't know why you're not letting me run into the street, but I trust your character that that's what's what's best for me right now. And I've had ton of seasons in my life where I'm like, this decision makes no sense. So I simply can recall and and rely on my faith in your character to carry me right now. There's this beautiful verse in Exodus. ⁓ the way it's translated in English is ⁓ a little confusing, but the original language Moses reads the law to the nation of Israel and their response is, We will do all that the Lord has commanded of us and then we will understand. Yeah. And I've just thought that that's so like that's become so real to me in parenthood and also being parented by God. It's like I will, okay, I this is not what I want to do and it's really uncomfortable and I don't understand, but I will do what you've commanded me and then I will understand. And that is I've watched that be so true. But the times where I fight against it, I'm like, I I don't want to do this. I'm gonna try and do it my own It's like then there are consequences to it that that go the wrong way. Ha do you have any specific examples? I know the the whole run into the street, but where you maybe said something to Casey and you went, ⁓ crap, God said this to me or is trying to teach me this. ⁓ all the time, man. All the time. I feel like every single time I discipline him, it's that. It's yeah. I that's been one of the great graces of God to me in this season, is that I think he's been He's given me really clear eyes to see a lot of that. Just the parallels. And I you you kind of know going in, like you get married, okay, this is like Jesus in the church. And when you have children, okay, now I'm I'm the the God figure to them. Like they're going to derive their image of what their heavenly father from my influence in their life. Like you kinda go in with it. And I think there's just been a special grace that that the Lord's given me to be able to see it really frequently. So there aren't stories that jump to mind, but it happens a lot. Something I'm I'm finding in this season with my soon to be five year old is trying to touch Teach her that I'm trustworthy. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. And and and the things that continue to come out of my mouth is you can trust daddy because I want you to have fun and be safe. And like that's when I say that, I like think of the father like his commandments are so that we may have fullness of life, life and life to the full. And that means enjoying it, delight. Yeah. But then the there's boundaries, there's things to keep us safe. There's there's things to protect us and and not just for us, but for the other people because We're not his only children. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So like I continue to speak that over my daughter because more than her obedience, I want her to see me as someone who's trustworthy. And that's that's what I feel like God's been saying to me a I've I've told Emma that so many times, and she has done such an incredible job with the safety piece. Like she's already gotten to the point where Kaysem will say it back to her. Yeah. That mommy and daddy want you to be and it'll go safe. Yes, but like that's right. And I my I view this season of like under two, three, maybe even up to five. Keep them alive. Yeah. Like the only thing, keep them alive. And if you don't get anything out of this season, like you don't need to learn your ABCs or how to tie your shoes, like you need to know that you can trust daddy. No matter what. Like that's it. You just need to know like everything I do, and I fail so often, but to the best of my ability, everything I do is unto building a foundation of Case and can trust his father. And and whenever you repair when you screw up. That's the That's the driver of repair. It's the most trust you can have in someone. Yeah. Is the humility to say, well, if daddy's getting this wrong, he'll actually realize it quickly. Yeah. And let me know. Yeah. So. Any thoughts, Noah? I think it's worth calling out that the the the last piece of that of repair, of we get it wrong, so we're gonna say something about it and and like ask. It is weird to ask your three year old. ⁓ for forgiveness and just to like say, I'm sorry, I I didn't do this right. Will you forgive me? ⁓ and he doesn't know. ⁓ but in order to do that requires an understanding and a release of control of there it there is this there's this tension of if I am doing this I'm showing weakness to my child and if they don't perceive me as strong then therefore then they'll run roughshot over me and won't trust what I have to say. And w we're often proven over and over again that no, that's not the case, like showing like showing that you were strong in many ways and also showing weaknesses weakness, I'm saying, with quotes. Like like you're you're you're humbling yourself before your child, which is not something that typically follows in what you would hold to be a normal order of things. But that just serves to increase the image and respect in in their eyes, even if they don't understand it. And when it doesn't, because there will be times that it doesn't. That doesn't mean you just stop. Yeah. but I I I was thinking about that of the amount of times I have to go, he doesn't understand when I'm saying, I'm sorry. Why am I even needing to do this? Mm-hmm. ⁓ I ⁓ just struck by that of it comes back to like my my need for control. And if I am not controlling everything about the way that I portray myself to my kid, he's then going to find any crack in it and and split it open and then just go run. So ⁓ that that was just my thought as you as you were saying that the the need to have a whole lot of humility and trust that the the example that has been laid out for us is in fact the right example. Coming back to that like I I will obey and then I will understand. I do not understand apologizing to my three year old. But I'm going to do it because I am the child in in the in the parent-child relationship of us and our father and he chose to come down and humble himself before us, not apologizing because he's God, but he chose to humble himself before us in what many would hold to be weakness, and yet his strength is elevated beyond. Yeah. This is the paradoxical relationship between weakness and power that the apostle Paul talks about in Second Corinthians twelve, this like upside down boast in your weaknesses so that the power of Christ can rest on you. It's redefining in some ways that's like the healthiest thing you can do for your child is to not Cast a wrong picture of what strength looks like. I don't know. Strength, strength doesn't mean being right. Strength doesn't mean holding to your ground. Strength means when you're wrong, you own it quick and you remain trustworthy. And we have we all have boys around this table. It's only a matter of time, because they're young. They're all under three, just under three, before they see a picture of what it means to be a man given by this world. And I hope when they see it, they Yeah. They kinda like make a funny face, be like, bro, that that ain't nothing like what my dad showed me. Yeah. Man, pray for our kids if if whenever they're exposed to, you know, manliness according to the world and we look no different. Yeah. I hope we set that example early for them. They can default to it. So hey, we could talk about this forever, but we we got a lot of a lot of on the back end of this of this podcast that I I I really am looking forward to unpacking. It's a it's a powerful metaphor. So make sure you guys are are tuning in for that. But share a little bit. We've we've talked a little bit about just this the sleeplessness. Yeah. ⁓ again, we're not gonna prescribe none of us should exactly how to sleep train. We've all been through sleep training. We've all made it through sleep training with kids, but ⁓ yeah, tell us just a little bit, especially about like some of the hardest stretches. What was a typical night like for you in the trenches. And that I mean, a lot of this was just within the last year, last 12 months. Yeah. Yeah. Casein Casein was a a really rough sleeper. ⁓ the bulk of it through the first nine months, it really extended through the first year or so. I would say our average night, I mean it was the stereotypical stuff when you're first becoming a parent. Like you're just kind of juggling. You don't ever nobody sleeps when they're first becoming a parent. And then as it we got into like month two, month three, month four, and it started to feel just like okay, this is Abnormal. This is not normal. Yeah. ⁓ he had some acid reflux stuff going on that we got figured out, but the average night for us for the most part, we've got a two-story house. His bedroom was upstairs with ours, and then the couch downstairs in the living room. And we would, we would set up ⁓ our bed and we would pull the sheets off of half of it so that there was half of a bed that was covered for one of us and then the other half for him. I would go upstairs with him and I would rock him for a long time. We've got this exercise ball that he refuses to be put to sleep any other way than us cradling him and rocking him on this exercise ball. And like for a long time, like an hour, hour and a half, I'd rock him to sleep. He's crying, upset. Finally get him to the point where he would sleep and I could gently lay him down on the uncovered part of the bed. And then I would like slip under the covers and sleep on like the sliver of a bed. And I would have about two hours and we took our hatch machine that's supposed to be the machine for the baby to sleep. We took that and we set it up downstairs next to the couch where we had made a second bed and Emma would sleep. Yep. And we created an alarm where the whole thing would light up lime green and it would play a thunderstorm sound. And that was our to literally have it titled in the hatch app help me. And so you knew if you're downstairs on the couch, it'd been about two hours, your face would light up green, the thunderstorm would wake you up, and you would go, ⁓ they need help. And we would you'd hear the crying, we'd exchange spots on the stairs, kind of high five. Hey, how is it? It's terrible. Good luck. I'll see you in a couple hours. And we would just exchange back and forth like multiple times a night. Yep. And it was it was brutal, man. It was really, really it was really challenging. ⁓ but then you wake up the next morning and he smiles at you and you get a little giggle and it's like, okay, let's do it again. Yeah. Yeah. And what I I need the listeners to know is I mean, there are parents out there that are just I to be honest, they're inept. They don't know what they're doing. They're co sleeping with their kids. They're They should be trying a lot of different things, keeping their kids up with wake windows and going to see doctors and maybe thinking about what they need to be feeding the kid different for gas pains and y'all y'all did all that. Like they they did all that. I love the collaboration. Yeah. And I'm I'm gonna get into it in a second because I'm I can only imagine this put a strain on your marriage. ⁓ not been anything that difficult, but I'm on my third tour right now and it's it's it's stressful, it's hard. Yeah. So kudos to y'all for collaborating. You gotta we talk about all the time, you gotta have a game plan going into the night because when bullets are flying, that's not the time to to create one. But ⁓ yeah, it it wasn't something that you guys just needed to do better or work harder at. I think the only thing he cluster fed through through the day. So my wife would breastfeed for like eight or ten hours a day and she researched so much stuff. Man, we tried I we've got like forty-five sleep sacks. We got the magic Merlin. We've got the ones with the hands up. We've got the ones with the arms crossed. We got ones that are weighted, ones that aren't weighted. I mean, everything. We look at courses. Yeah. And it just, yeah, nothing took. Nothing took. The reason why I want to have you on is because we we've talked about how this has impacted your relationship with God in your prayer life. ⁓ and even because of some of the unanswered prayers, how that's impacted not just how you prayed for your son to sleep, but prayed in other areas. Share with the listeners, catch them up a little bit that journey of what it's like to pray for your son to sleep. And like I said in the opener, to hear nothing except for your son just continuing to cry. Yeah. It it ⁓ was very confusing. ⁓ you go through like these cycles, almost like you're trying to game God. It sounds like I think it's just important to say, to be honest about what you're thinking and feeling about God and to just trust that his shoulders are big enough to Carry it. Yep. ⁓ man, we have like I would rock him, be sitting on this ball, rocking him. He's not going to sleep. And I'm praying, literally, like, God, just please put him to sleep. And and so much of it at the beginning was selfish. It like we're, you know, five or six months into doing this. We're not sleeping. And I'm exhausted. Yeah. And it's hard on our marriage in the middle of the night. It's because you're saying stuff that you don't mean and there's tension. And and it's this like, okay, God, please just put him to sleep. And then the prayer would transition to like, no, that's really selfish. You need to just pray for it. Like this is for his benefit. And like it's it sort of shaped me a little bit there. Sure. And then I'd I'm praying like genuinely, I meant it a lot of the time where it's like, no, this really is for his benefit. And it and it still doesn't take. And then it's for my wife's benefit and it still doesn't take. And it it gets to the point where it's like, God, please just help me. Like just and I'm not kidding, dude. The number of times where I would have finally gotten him to sleep. I'm standing up off the ball and you're doing this weird like sideways wiggle to get your feet in the right place. Heart locking. Yeah, so you don't you can't make the floor creak. And it's like the most intense exercise you've ever done, trying to get him over the side of the crib. And I'm saying amen to this prayer, finally feeling like God had answered me, getting ready to put him down. I am in my head. And he wakes up as I'm saying the word. Yeah. And it wasn't like a like one time I would have like, ⁓ what a coincidence. Do every night for like A long time. Which makes you want to stop praying. Let's just be honest. It it made me want to stop praying. And it got to the point like it wasn't even like ⁓ it was a little bit of a prayer doesn't work. Sure. But a lot of it it was it was anger at God because it for a while I thought just God just didn't hear me. I was like, does God does God just not hear me? Am I not saying the words the right way? Am I like am I not is it because I'm praying selfishly that he's not responding? And and it slowly morphed into like, no, God hears me. Yeah. He hears exactly what I'm asking for and he knows my heart and he's cruel to me. And he is he's just like I'm a play toy. Like what is happening? Why wake him up any other time during the prayer except the amen when he's asleep? You know, like it was yeah, it was really, really hard. Really hard. We have listeners that have kids that are six months old and going through this. We have listeners that have kids that are sixteen or twenty six, or we have a family member with a s son who's closer to thirty six who's ⁓ Struggled and just recently came back into a relationship with their parents. And so no matter what it is, there's seasons in in fatherhood where you pray and seemingly it has no effect on your kids. And that that impacts your relationship with God. Yeah. So being honest with it, I love that. ⁓ continuing to show up, pray what you got. Yeah. Even if you don't know what to say, just I'm gonna don't know what my motives are, but I'm gonna pray what I got. So I just want to encourage the dads, wherever you're at, whatever season you're in. Take this in with you to stay persistent, continue moving forward and be honest with the Lord. But in a spirit of honesty, was there a certain night or just a certain even period within that that kind of broke you? The the transition from God doesn't hear me to God hears me very clearly and is cruel was really challenging for me. Because then I don't like if he doesn't hear you. it's almost okay, maybe I can figure something. He just wants me to keep pressing in. He wants me to when the when the the belief shifts to God is against me in this, my instinct is to like I'm gonna pull back. Like I'd why would I engage with it like I've got a better shot. I genuinely started I a better shot doing this on my own. If I just don't say Amen, sure, he's not gonna wake up. You know, like maybe we've got a shot or I just have to white knuckle this and get through it. And in the middle of the night, man, you're at your I mean, last night at one AM, like I was 'cause I had just fallen asleep for fifteen minutes. You know, that's like the the worst amount to sleep. And then I mean, you're just you're just thinking things that you you don't actually believe. Yeah. But you're just desperate. You're confused. You're mad. Well then you wake up the next morning and and you're rehashing all the stuff that you believe, the stuff that you got into it with your wife about, and it's like just there's shame that that creeps in and there's still this distance. It's like I d I feel shame about what I felt about God. And how I reacted to that. So I can't go to him right now because I don't yeah, it it turns into this weird mess that I think is very s a very specific attack to try and keep you like the whole point of the faith walk of the the believer is relationship with the Lord. Yeah. And so any tactic that the enemy can use to just get you from engaging is is a success to him, whatever it looks like. Yeah. Yeah. And and I've talked to you about this There's a lot of times we f we feel more distant from God those first six months after having a kid. Yeah. And in a lot of it's just cause your spiritual habits and rhythms are thrown off. So on top of all this, you're not able to have your thirty minutes alone with God. Yeah. Or ⁓ you're a little extra stressed out throughout the day. So it's a little harder to just connect with Him. Or maybe you you don't come to Friday morning group with your guys 'cause you needed those extra hour and a half of sleep. Yeah. You get thrown off off these rhythms on top of all that. So you're vulnerable. So like it it I just want to say this to the dads that are expecting. If you if you've not had a kid or the moms, i if you feel like you've taken a step back in your relationship with Jesus, one, God's not further from you. Yeah. And two, it it it'll come it'll come back easy. It'll be easier. But sometimes the point of a a relationship is to see what you can go through and how willing you are to continue to just show up and fight even when the feelings aren't there. That's been the biggest the biggest through line lesson in prayer for me. It showed up in that season, like when God doesn't answer, when he does go silent for a season, it's an invitation to like continue to not, continue to press in. It it it's it sounds weird, but it's very similar to what I experienced with Caseen walking around earlier today. It's like this shalom of just I just want to be with you. Yeah. Come to me, come to me, come to me, come to me. And come to me with whatever you have. It's almost this freeing, like Come to me irritated. Come to me in disbelief. Come to me thinking I'm cruel. Just come to me. Yep. And Emma I are walking through a season right now with, I'm not gonna get into the details, but just like some health stuff that is confusing and hard. And it's the Lord has responded in a different way where He's been unbelievably communicative. Yeah. And it's the same through line. Like when we started to get clarity about the health stuff, I felt myself start to ease back into rhythms again and it was this kick in the pants of like stay engaged, stay engaged, stay engaged, continue to press in. Like it's all about this relationship to just come back to the Lord, regardless of the season. If he's answering, if he's not, if it's good, if it's bad. Just continue to press in and pursue the relationship. It's changed my prayer life. And it's it it really when you come out the other side. Yeah. Yeah. The highs and the lows like how you pray and relate to God is different. Each kid with mine, it's it's been different. I pray my overall how much I feel like however you want to define prayer is probably less throughout a day. But I pray to God more often. Yeah. Because I don't have those forty five minute chunks in the morning like I used to, but I got a lot of pray what you got. I got a lot of three minutes in the in the word or five minutes on a podcast or Lectio three sixty five with a dog walking for five minutes. And ⁓ yeah, I just pray I I keep that practicing the presence of God into the season when I do have more structured discipline time. Talk about your marriage. How how did you get through this? Because y'all, y'all are y'all love each other. Yeah. You've you've worked together, you've collaborated, but it was hard. So just man, just because something's hard doesn't mean it's anyone's fault. You know, if something's hard doesn't mean someone's it's someone's fault. So share with that. We we were given some really good advice before Caseon was born to be so quick to give grace in the middle of the night. Like almost just throw everything that's said in the middle of the night out the window. Mm-hmm. ⁓ you still have to apologize, still have to own the weaknesses, still not absolving anyone of that. But forgive quick. Yeah, forgive quick. And and it doesn't take more than a couple weeks before you've said something that hurts her and she said something that hurts you, and now you can empathize. Hey, you hurt me, and I'm just gonna be slow to offend ⁓ to take offense. I just sure I've been there. I totally relate with what you just did or what you said last night. It hurt, not gonna lie, but I get it. And it it was so from that perspective, like it was hard. Because you're exhausted and you can't go out and do stuff you want. And there's frankly, there's no time to like engage with one another. And I will never forget the first night that she and I slept in our bed together. It like it is seared into my mind. She and I walked in and it was this light bulb moment of like, ⁓ my goodness, we haven't got to do this in the It's like your first your first night you're married, but but so different at the same time. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It It was so helpful for us to be on the same team working against something that is difficult. And I I want to be very clear to say you're not working against your child. It's there's a difficult situation that is challenging. And frankly, you, your wife, and your child are working in something together. And it's it's bonding, it's unifying. And it taught us a really valuable lesson to repair quick. Like we got a lot of reps repairing quickly. That's true. And frankly, I've heard somebody say, Hey, when you get when you get to the point where you're married and you have and you have children, you literally don't have time to waste fighting with one another. Like your capacity, your your bandwidth for other stuff gets completely compressed. So the number of hours in the day, like you are lighting the majority of your day on fire if you have an argument where you can't repair quick. And so just the reps to like, Hey, I said this last night, I'm really sorry, please don't take offense. She gives grace and we're ready to go. I love that. I and I've thought of this a couple times in our conversation. It's probably I think it's a Dallas Willard quote. I'll give a Dallas Willard quote out here, even if it's not. But a mature Christian is one who's not easily offended. And I've just thought about that of like God's not easily offended whenever you're frustrated. He can handle, like you said, he's got big shoulders. But then what does it look like also to step into that yourself, to give grace? Yeah. Now don't go to your wife and say if you want to be mature, Christian, don't don't be so easily offended in the middle of the night. That's how you don't repair questions. Model that as the man of your household. And again, whether this is sleep training or sleep training is an analogy for something else going on in your fatherhood. I think that's that's extremely applicable. ⁓ Yeah, I I was gonna ask you a question. I I'll throw it out there if there's anything else. Anything else that you're like, man, I started to believe this about God. You've been very honest and I appreciate that. Anything anything else that you're like, I I kinda started to believe this about God, and I don't I don't like that I believe this about God, but I find myself believing that. And it would be hard to say out loud. The the cruelty one was the hardest to come to terms with because it's so like the way the enemy attacks is not with polar opposites to the truth. It's with slight variations. And a God who's cruel is so polar opposite. Yeah. That he could not have gotten me to believe that with a full frontal like God's cruel I'd have like, what are talking about? Right. It's it's a slow one degree to the next shift where it just kind of it was one of those things where you like wake up to ⁓ no, I think he's cruel. Yeah. And it's stuff you never would have dreamed that you would say. That was the hardest one for me because it was just so hard to work back from. ⁓ But your willingness to say that out loud to our group of friends on a Friday morning allowed you to say, like, hey, I know this ain't true, but there's a part of me that thinks it is. And and even that confession of unbelief, I mean, that's that's the walk of at least an honest follower of Jesus is Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. Yeah. But to the listeners, sit with other men. ⁓ have to. Yeah. I mean Good gracious. Like you you have to take this stuff to the Lord. But when you're in a sea like when I was in the season where I was believing that God was cruel, he can handle that and he can shoulder it. But if I'm in a season where I don't feel like he's responding and I'm not hearing him clearly, yeah, sometimes it's it's just practically more helpful to literally hear it from a brother who's also walking with Christ and can shoulder it. Borrow that faith, man. Yeah. Where I could come in and confess it. Hey, this is what I'm feeling. Hey, that's that's okay. And I just like I know it's hard to believe right now, this is true, we're in it with you. Like it was just so refreshing where they could speak on behalf of God in a way that I could not hear if it was coming from God directly. Yeah. There's a there's a ⁓ piece where Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writing life together and talking about kind of Christians living the walk together. And that's one of the things he like, ⁓ the same fears, frustrations, concerns that I have are playing into. my interactions with Jesus or my reading of scripture. And a brother could read the exact same scripture scripture. Yeah. But it is not plagued with the same frustrations, concerns, fears that I have. So that when he says it, it sounds completely different. Even though I read the exact same words on my own, hearing it from a different place is critical because the he I'm butchering the quote, but essentially like the Jesus in my brother is ⁓ not afflicted with the same thoughts that the Jesus in me and there can be encouragement there. Yeah. ⁓ and to the point of spend time with other men. Spend time with other men that you can speak those things aloud in not all the time. If you are finding every time that you are getting together, that is like those are the only things that you're saying that their A needs to be work in your heart and also in in theirs 'cause that's not going to last. But could be toxic. Yes. But they the kind of men that you can be around to your point. you can we we are called to be around all different kinds of people. Some of the men that you are with need to be the ones that you can go, I am going to say something that is utterly contrary to everything that I have said, acted on, or thought about up until this point. Yeah. And I don't believe that this defines everything that I have to say, but I have to say it out loud because if I don't, it's just gonna stay inside my head and it's gonna fester. Yeah. And then you say something like, I believe God is cruel, when everything that he says is not that, everything that we have observed and believed up to this point does not does not say that everything it there is a necessity for for community and ⁓ again why we are called together to like meet together yeah and so that you can so that you feel the presence of the Lord. But and in those group settings to be able to say something like that in the context of people where you have relational equity and they know your heart, they know your walk and they can see That what you are saying or this belief, this lie that you're carrying is different than what you're you're like, it's not a you're coming into this new group of people that don't know you and you're dropping this. Yeah, you have a rich history of relational equity. These guys know me. We do life together, they know my heart. They can see that this is plaguing. And I even know you don't fully believe that. Yeah. Even if you know what I'm saying, like Yeah. But you I feel that, don't believe it. You also gotta be able to do that frequently enough that they can call it out and be like, nope, no, no, no, no, no. You actually D maybe not God is cruel, but something else that is not quite right that you genuinely do believe. You're mad at him. That might be the answer. Yeah. Yeah. because it is necessary to be together so that you can be called out in in some of those when you're not necessarily in this this particular space, but like you're months down the line, you are no longer in the trenches and you are still harboring this. It's it's gone from a this was kind of a passing thing to no, this is deep set. And then you also need to be able to express that and have them be like, mm, no. We need we need to talk about that more. ⁓ so I think there the more and more that I get to talk with you all and I get to I get to hear and I get to listen, the more and more I'm like, Man, we talk about something good. And then there's the flip side to that where if you keep going in the same direction, then sometimes there's ⁓ Yeah, there's gotta be correction. Yeah. I'll say there's a season, a large chunk of this this sleepless season where my only spiritual rhythm were these Hail Mary prayers, not literally, but like these throw ⁓ at the at the ceiling prayers. And and Friday morning group, I would I would shout into the darkness, feel like I heard nothing, and then I would roll in looking rough. Yeah, dude. I mean at six fifteen. I would I would cut my three hours of sleep to two and I would roll in and it was just like, all right, this is what I got. I don't and it was so helpful. And it was edifying to me 'cause y I mean I'm showing up even with I only got six and a half last night. Like Zach's there, you know. And ⁓ Yeah. I mean, I could riff on this for a while, but I I want to get into the meat of of the analogy or metaphor. I didn't really do well in English in high school. But talk to us about spiritual tummy time. Because I'm gonna pretend you made this up. I don't know who I definitely didn't. But ⁓ I stole it from somebody. ⁓ but we don't know who, so you made it up. This has been extremely helpful, even as Karis is doing actual tell me time right now, as I've thought about this. Share it with the listeners. That's that's the thing that was the most fascinating. So the idea of spiritual tell me time. If you're a parent, you you've experienced this. If you're gonna be a parent, you will experience this, like I did. tell me time is when you spend a short portion of time. increasingly longer with your child that cannot lift their head or get up to their knees ⁓ on their stomach. And the intent is that they would start to slowly lift their head, they'd strengthen their back and their neck, and that they would develop into a stronger child so that they can be somewhat self-sufficient or they continue to to grow. ⁓ all the while like you are standing right there with them. A baby's never being Punished, baby's never in trouble, baby's never in danger, they're never gonna have more than what is appropriate for the time. There's always support of it, but like all of this stuff. And and the analogy is like God oftentimes when he is quiet, I think, is giving you a little spiritual tummy time. It's because if you think about the alternative If every time I put my son on his stomach when he was weak and could not lift his neck, if every single time he cried, because he does not like it. No. He did not like it. It's actually really sad. Yeah. It's really frustrating. It's really hard. They're straining. They're confused. If a lot of gas usually passes. Yeah. Yeah. They have no idea what's going on. They're just very upset. The only thing they know what to do to do is to cry. And if every single time he cried I picked him up, I would raise a weak child. Yeah. Like he would not Grow. He would not develop. He would not become the type of person that we're hoping he becomes. And I think it's very true, very similar spiritually, but honestly, like far more impactful. Yeah. Like for God to, I'll just use the very practical example. If God would have answered me the first prayer, or if I would have thought that I could like game this prayer system, like God, please help my child sleep. Lay him down in bed, he sleeps perfectly until seven o'clock and we wake up well rested. I would have never learned the need to press in. Sure. When it's challenging, press in. When you're comfortable and it's easy to not press in and it's easy to scroll or whatever. Like press in. You have to be engaged. We're in the middle of a spiritual war. You have to be in the battle. Wake up. But that is that is was such a critical lesson for me. And it is part of God developing me into the type of man who can lead a family. It's developing me into the type of man who can be trusted with the blessing of God that is to come. Like he needs to put you on your belly and let you strain in an environment that's protective and that's nourishing and that's watchful so that you can develop into the type of person he can bless you. I even think in your marriage. Yeah. When you talked about learning how to repair, learning how to collaborate, learning how to forgive quickly, I mean, you're c you're going to carry all of that into the rest of your marriage. I it was uncanny because we would do this this routine at night where it was exhausting and the worst parts of me would come out. I mean the worst parts of me would come out. I would wake up, I feel horrible. I feel mad at God. My wife and I are at odds because I said something stupid and and she's hurt. And and then we'd set my son on his stomach in the living room and he would strain and my mind like I just I'm I'm in a different seat. Yeah. And so I can see it. Clearly. I'm like, no, no, no, buddy, this is good for you. Like I'm right here. I give him a little pat on the butt. Hey, buddy, you're doing good. You're doing like or and praise God, he gives us those pats on the butt. Yes. Like he you know what I'm saying? Yes. That's right. Hey man, come on. He's there. He's sometimes you can't see him or you can't hear him. But the but there are those times where it's like, okay, I I got the reprieve temporarily I needed. And and dude, sometimes, like in this season, well, a few months ago, Caseon is climbing up onto stuff and he wants to attack the biggest thing. Like he wants to he'll try and climb up to something that's up to his neck and he'll get about three quarters of the way there and he starts to struggle. And I can hear him grunting and stuff. And my inclination as a father is to go like put my hand under his foot and like and I have to just like ⁓ buddy you're so close. Like keep keep struggling. Keep struggling, buddy you're so close. And so even when he's not giving the little the little nudge, the little pat on the butt, the it's like, ⁓ buddy, you're so close to a breakthrough right now. keep struggling when it freaking happens how old dude yes man I I will say I maybe this is like this for some people for me it wasn't this ⁓ aha I broke through and now I don't struggle with all this stuff anymore like it's just a it's a grind you know it's a grind it's it I I think that the ⁓ you got there is glory. ⁓ right and so there's there's perpetual spiritual tummy time and development and but yeah man just the realization the process of of being on my spiritual tummy through the night And all of this difficulty and then waking up the next morning and sitting in the different seat and going, ⁓ no, no, no, buddy, you got this. And the r the reason why you continue to have spiritual tummy time is because exactly what you said, Casein doesn't struggle to crawl. He struggles to get up eight feet off the ground when he's climbing a jungle gym. Yeah. He's matured. Yeah. But you want him to continue to mature, continue to grow. My third time around, I'm handling things way better than I did when Naomi was born. Yeah. Not as well as I I would hope to some days. But it's it's phenomenal when you look back and say, Hey, the things that would really cause me to strain mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, the Lord has developed in me so I can take on even more. The whole point of learning and growing and developing is so you can sacrificially l you want Caseen to do this one day for his own son. Yeah. Right. To give his life away. But that's why. If like if you're not continuing to have spiritual tummy time periodically, there's seasons of rest. There's seasons of joy and delight and ⁓ you know, jubilee that the Lord gives you, but a scary thought if we just continue just to crawl around when God wants us jumping over things. I I think so often maybe other people can relate to this, but for me I can I can like hyper focus on on specific things and I lose track of the bigger picture. And for me it's always been so helpful to just come back to the the reality that the the call for the Christian is to pursue relationship with the creator God, a king who is ushering in a new kingdom and his his aim is to shape you into a person fitting in that kingdom. It's like if I can step back and just okay, how how does what I'm going through filter through that lens? ⁓ it Teaching me to walk in relationship with the Lord more closely? Is it pulling me in? Is it is it aligning me with the kingdom where I was aligned with something else? Sure. Is it shaping me into the person who's going to be better able to work and fit and live in the new coming kingdom? Like his whole aim is to usher in this new beautiful thing and for you to fit right in. It's the gospel. But there's yes. That is the gospel. Yes. But there's so much shaping, so much tummy time that has to happen in order to get you there. Praise God. Yeah. That he's willing to do that for us. And it's like I can get so caught up in the granularity and like, ⁓ what's this mean? And what am I supposed to do here? It's like, man, just take a step back. God is shaping you into the type of person who will fit into his kingdom. And that's that's incredible. That's incredible news. That's good news. So incredible news. So much purpose within. Yeah. But it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. No, let me go ahead, Noah, because I'm a I'm a I'm a address something in a moment that most of our listeners should be asking themselves. But go ahead. Yeah, I was just I was going to point to kind of a little bit earlier when when you were talking about like this you're doing things better now than you were beforehand. I think it is worth calling out a piece of this for the anxiety part of ⁓ something that's been sitting on my mind is the today is enough trouble for its own sake. Don't don't borrow tomorrow's trouble. ⁓ I think about my daughter and then I think about her being a teenager and then I think about her going off to college. I think about her graduating college and then like what comes after. And I'm like, I'm not there yet. I think about Mason and having to figure out how do we do screen time with him when he has a phone. How do we train him well so that he is not off gallivanting doing awful things in high school that we're like, this is not going to set you up well. And I'm worried about those things now. He's three. Yeah. She is not even a year old. Yeah. We will get we will get there. And there are a lot of days in between now and then. There are a lot of days, Lord willing, between now and when we get to spend eternity with him. Some for some people it is not it is not mul many, many days, but there is, at least if you're hearing this now, there's another day. And the the process of sanctification is that is that slow. One degree of glory. Yeah, and we you have said it multiple times. We say it on this podcast a lot. He does less in a day than you want and more in a year. just this this the to your point, this shaping, but this it it I want it desperately to like, okay, just hack it all off and and get me there. But then with like you think of you think of manna in the wilderness, he didn't give them at the start of the week the whole week's worth of bread. It's like, Okay, you're gonna get up, you're gonna go get it today and then tomorrow. you're going to go get it that day. And then the day after that, you're going to come before me and get your sustenance. Give us today our daily bread. Yeah. We need it for today. And that is what we need. And I I have to I have to remind myself that 'cause I go forward and like, I am not prepared for this. When when we had Mason and we were watching Naomi, who's like two two years older, I'm like, I am not ready for a two and a half year old. I am not ready for those emotions. I'm not ready to handle all those you weren't. And I wasn't. Right. And that's kind of the point. And now, yeah, I can. And I look at Naomi. I'm like, I'm not ready for a five-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're the Naomi's the closest context that I have for the next stage. But I'll get there. Yeah. We'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I do think that's good. Good friend of mine has always said, begin with the end in mind. Like have vision. I've been reading through the creation story again and To see the vision for redemption that God has even in Genesis one through three. From the jump. Is like you can tell he has this. I know where this is going and I'm gonna design it in such a way that we go this way, but he's still present in the moment. Right. Which is well, you know, present everywhere in all moments. But you get what I'm saying. Yeah, it falls apart eventually. But yeah, yeah. but this like, yes, the I am Caseon is gonna go off to college one day, and I want him to be prepared for that. I don't wanna be anxious about that. But how do I want that day like my desire for what that day looks like or that season looks like should inform how I interact in today. And sometimes it is no steps forward, thirty steps back, and then you just hang out for a little bit and you slowly make progress. Like it's not l linear, at least my very limited experience. ⁓ Something the listeners should be thinking is, Okay, Zach, ⁓ what do you do to a dad listening right now? He's like really in a hard place and ⁓ There's this temptation to where this idea of spiritual tell me time could be like weaponized against him. And here's what I mean by that is a lot of times we short circuit grief by repurposing something, ⁓ or finding purpose in the grief when really God just wants us to grieve. Here's what mean. ⁓ after my dad, ⁓ and I talked about this openly a couple episodes ago ⁓ episodes ago, took his life three years ago. If you would have looked at me and said, Hey, bro, it's just a season of spiritual tell me time, I would have punched you in the face. You know what I'm saying? Right, Lisa. So there there are seasons for grief. Yeah. There are seasons for just naming the hard and sitting in that and not rushing to repurposing. what do you w what do you say to just the dads listening? So one, they don't allow people to weaponize something this type of mindset which is needed and necessary. But then also they don't ⁓ be the ones offering that either. They're not quickly dismissive, whether it's their wife, God forbid, or A best friend by just saying, ⁓ this is just spiritual tummy time. Yeah. Yeah. I I ⁓ would like if I'm going to give that this is spiritual tummy time, which I really don't often. ⁓ I almost want to hear in different language that coming from the person first. Like I want it to help that's good. I want it to help color the language that they're giving. ⁓ because it's Man, I remember being in that season. This is we're coming off of one of the worst weeks of sleep that Caseen has had in a long time, very unironically. Right. ⁓ We do it for the dads here, man. Yeah. We're in the lab. We're practitioners. It's it's put me back in touch with like, ⁓ this was hard. Yeah. Man. This was really hard. And in the moment, I did not you don't want to hear coffee mug platitudes. Like doesn't it doesn't hit. It just makes you mad. It drives so I guess the the That's maybe the practical for if you're going to like try to speak that into someone's life to add some color. For for me, the really practical in terms of receiving stuff like that, I have a really I I like to believe that I have a really tight filter on who I let speak into my life. That's good. Like I it's concentric circles. Like I have a very, very close knit group of people that I have allowed to shape my heart and whose words can shape my heart. And then it kind of grows from there. Like there are people who have a little bit of shaping authority over my heart. And then after that's like, hey, I'll receive, I will, I will be cordial and receive, and like we can have dialogue. These are good friends of mine. Yeah. But there's a very, very close-knit inner circle where I will allow them to speak and I will like fully receive what they're saying to me in a way that shapes my heart. So I just think you have to be guarded. Like it's so communal to walk through these hard seasons. It has to be communal. Yeah. Or it's it's You know, the the the enemy is crouching around like a roaring lion looking to devour you. It's it's like if you isolate yourself, he's going to attack and then there's no one to speak against the lies. But it's curating a group of people that know you well, who you've given authority to speak into and to shape your heart, like giving them access in those moments, I think, is more so like how I've how I've learned to receive those, if that makes sense. It is. It does make sense because yeah, they've earned that. Yeah. So when when you're dishing it, it's hey, people are throwing out themes of I know God's teaching me something I'm not sure what. I know he's not completely forgotten me, but feels like he's not close. That's when you hit him with the hey, this may or may not help, but you might think of it this way. Like that's just such a more humble approach. And then vice versa. Like if you're hearing this and all you're hearing is I'm not allowed to grieve or I this is just hard. You don't understand. We don't, man. Yeah. And y you know, you you can't be developed if you're actively bleeding. Yeah. So there might need to be healing that takes place before development. So just seek healing. Jesus is the great healer. ⁓ and then when you get from a place that you're healthy enough, then the tell me time often happens, right? So if you're if you're feeling hurt or offended by this, I I promise you, ⁓ our first desire is for you to seek healing however that needs to be placed. Yeah, a hundred percent. I I think about this with case and like God, I said this before, God can handle this. If if you need to grieve and let it out and like Some of the prayers that get prayed by saints in the old testament, if they got prayer in your prayed in your small group, like you would not want to sit next to that person. Like God is going to smite them off the face of the earth the way that they're talking about. But but but it's in the it's in the Bible. Like we're we're taught to pray this way. Yeah. And it's because it's honest. Yeah and that's step back, thirty thousand foot view. We're trying to build relationship with the creator God who's ushering in a new kingdom. A good relationship requires honesty. Honesty. And so just be like bring it to him and sometimes you're not gonna respond and bring it to the people you trust and sometimes it's not gonna go well. And but like he can shoulder this and so just continuing to take time and say, like it's not gonna go as quick as I want to know his point, but I can continue to take this to him and I can sit in this grief because he he's the great healer. Like he will bring healing, whether it's through him speaking directly to you, community around you, whatever it may be, time sometimes is the answer. Consistency, man. Yeah. Time. Speaking of time, ⁓ we gotta keep it under an hour. ⁓ I gotta get to bed for twenty minutes so my daughter can wake me up. practical takeaways for dads listening. ⁓ yeah, what are some things that if if a dad's one in the middle of the grind of just sleep training or getting ready to gear up, practically from a mindset again, not how to actually sleep train, and or just in general for parents who are crying out for their children. Forgot to work, forgot to form them, that they're seeing their kids struggle where they feel like they're struggling and they don't know if God's hearing them. Where do we start? What do we do from here? I I think the God seems to have as I read through the scriptures, God seems to have a very keen desire for his people to be persistent and to be steadfast. Yes. ⁓ and so I think that's the call. I've said this a couple of times, but like the persistence to shed the immaturity that requires feelings to fuel your faith. Like you have to press in. Sometimes you're not gonna feel it. Most of the time, frankly, you're not gonna feel no persistent. You're not gonna feel motivated. You're not gonna and the call is still there. Like, give what you have. ⁓ some of these prayers that I was praying in the middle of the night were literally just God, please make him go to sleep. Yeah. Like that's it. Some of them were very long. Some of them, most of them were very, very short. So just give what you have, but be consistent and press in. So that that that's one thing that I would say. ⁓ we talked about the humility. That's huge. Yeah. ⁓ like learn to repair quickly. Yep. ⁓ with with your spouse, with your child, with yourself. That was huge for me. I would feel so much shame with what comes out of you in the middle of the night. Yeah, even if they can't understand you. That's good. Yeah. Learning to repair quickly with yourself and give grace. ⁓ Yeah, persistent. I had something else but I lost it. Well, I'll I'll I'll share something that comes to mind is ⁓ I know ⁓ I heard a Navy SEAL talk about in training whenever they have to run however far in the middle the night when it's raining and dark and carrying canoes over their head and just all this crazy training they have to do is they just teach them literally to pick a point and just run to that place. And I just I wanna encourage the listeners, the suffering is temporary. Yeah. And boy, that's a place of privilege. I can say that. But I've been in places where I'm not privileged, where I was in the suffering. And I've had to choose that that it's temporary. And I have to choose to believe that. So some of it is like pain in the night, but joy comes in the morning. And pick that place and just run through it. Because when you have a sense of hopelessness and dread, that's that's really when the enemy's got you. But if you can pick the point of I'm gonna make it till five AM or I'm gonna make it to the weekend and then I'm gonna ask for help to get a good night's sleep from someone who can help. Give me a nap or some relief or or whatever that point is that you're you're running with a bunch of people who are running in the same direction. Again, community, ⁓ pick that point and it's not it's not the end of the ten mile run. Yeah. It's probably a hundred meters. Yeah. Or five hours or five minutes. So yeah, just remind yourself that this suffering is temporary and ⁓ yeah, eventually you're gonna get there. One more, 'cause this was really helpful for us. ⁓ the temptation, at least that I felt. When you are exhausted and you feel shame, especially, or there's tension in your marriage, or whatever it may be, when you're going through a difficult season, the temptation for me was to look for rest, but not shalom rest. Most of the time it was distraction rest. And and what that led to in my life was me not being as present as I ought to have been w when the good times were happening. No doubt. My son would wake up after a horrible night of sleep and he was oblivious to how horrible of a night of sleep it was. He felt peachy. He's good. He's giggling. He wants to he's looking for plates the fuel you need. Yeah. That's the like, but if I am looking for faux rest in that moment and I'm scrolling on ESPN or I'm like, ⁓ bro, I just need a break. I get to get out of the house. Like if I'm punting on that because I'm not willing to stay in the fight in the midst of being tired, I'm gonna miss all the good stuff. I'm gonna miss the blessing of that season. And so like resist the urge to Try to steal time back for yourself that you feel like you were robbed of in the middle of the night. Like you'll get the time back, and you also won't miss out on the season that God is like you won't miss out on the moments that are the actual blessing of the season. It's good. So yeah, be present. Be very present. That is really good. Very practical. For those. Tell me he's gonna His hand is raised, you can't see him. ⁓ that at least initially, that was not like I was not there in late nights. It very much was like steal it back and you're you're saying be present. There are a lot of our listeners and I'm hoping that there are a lot because I I was and occasionally am said listener. ⁓ like y if you're not there, that's that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's like find a point in your day that you're like, Okay, this is a point when I normally would just be like, please, I need to find some way to to claw back. that moment of okay, I'm doing something that I would choose to do. Yeah. Let like have your prayer be, Lord, I need you to show me this five minute time and then let me hear it. And then choose to put my phone down and and and engage and engage and be present. And y it is okay to start there. We will abandon it like it's it yeah. We we talk about this is the practical thing of where you want to be and some people are not even close enough To see that as a point to run to. Sure. The point to run to is to your point, I I can run to five minutes. Yeah. And that's what I got. That's what you got. ⁓ so I just w I just wanted to call out of if you're not, if you're not even to a place where you can see being present in any way, shape, or form, let the point that you run to be like, Lord, show me this place. Yep. And and then make it clear to me what I can do in this small moment. Yeah. Show me show me the next right thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Zach, any other final thoughts? I'm gonna let you pray us out here in a second. ⁓ but we appreciate your honesty, appreciate your story. Appreciate you guys having me. Yeah. Yeah. It's been helpful for me. There will be a point soon where I'll have to say, What's the next right thing? And I want to get everything out of this season. That is that is something God has laid on my heart. Know your season before the season passes. And I don't just mean parenting, but each kid's so different. Yeah. I think you've gotten a lot out of that really hard season. And now it's you're able to share it with people. Yeah, I think so. And it's it's given vision to the bigger picture God wants to develop you. ⁓ and sometimes I'm not gonna like it. And that's part of it. It's part of it. Yeah. It's part of the tell me time. So ⁓ if you're up at two AM tomorrow night and you're pissed at God a little bit. And you're praying, and it seems like he's not picking up. Dad, you're you're in good company. We've all been there around this table. ⁓ we're proud of you. Keep showing up. Yeah. There's man, where the ideal is lacking, grace abounds, and that is going to be the promise that we hang on to. So ⁓ again, this is a a surrogate community for a lot of men that don't have those Friday morning coffee groups, or there's one or two guys that they can just sit down and be all ⁓ honest with. Pray for that. I hope that you find that. Seek that with everything you can. But until then, if we can be of any help or support or encouragement, ⁓ we're here for that. And we're really just thankful for you listeners engaging. So, ⁓ Zach, will you pray a blessing ⁓ over our listeners that God would just reveal whatever it is that He's wanting them to grow in? And ⁓ as they level up, as they grow in their fatherhood, that that they would become mature so that they can bless others. Yeah. Yeah. Father, we thank you that you're good and that you're on our side, that you're for us. I'm grateful that you have a plan for a new kingdom that's coming. I mean, I'm grateful that you want us to be a part of it. You want to be you want us to be a part of bringing it. You want us to be a part of being in and enjoying the new kingdom. and father, sometimes the formation is confusing and frustrating and it leaves open avenues for us to believe lies and some people who are listening to this right now are in that season. And so Father, I ask for the grace for them to see your hand at work, for them to learn to trust your character in a new way. Yeah. Father, I pray against lies of the enemy that you would unearth those, that you would drag them into the light, that they would be seen for what they are, and that you would ⁓ freshly speak truth over them. Father, I I pray for the steadfastness to endure, to ⁓ continue to show up, to bring what they have. I pray, Pray for a spirit of of grace for themselves, a spirit of humility. And Father, just bless them. ⁓ bless us. Bless us as you form us. We ask you for this in the name of Jesus. Amen. Amen. That's good.