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142 When Should I Quit? How Do I Know When To Move On? · DevQuestions with Tim Corey

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Dev Questions Podcast with Tim Corey.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Join us each episode as we tackle the questions you are asking about a career in software development, understanding the industry, and new technology.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're just starting out or you want to grow stronger as a developer, this is the place to get your questions answered.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's your host, expert developer and online educator, Tim Corey.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: When should I quit my job?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: How do I know if my work environment is toxic or just normal?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: And how long should I stay if I haven't been there very long?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: These are the questions we're going to answer in today's episode of Dev Questions.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this question comes from the suggestion site, and I thought it'd be a great one to tackle today.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: But if you have a question that hasn't been answered yet, and this is episode 142, so you probably should look back at the archive to see if maybe I already covered it.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: But go to suggestions.imtimcorey.com and leave your suggestion there for a future episode.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about the spectrum between a great job and a toxic job.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I want to make sure that we are clear on really kind of the gray area that is this spectrum.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about a black and white thing.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: For example, great jobs will include work that you don't want to do.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Even the greatest jobs I've ever had have work that is just not fun, or it's drudgery, or it's difficult, or it's confusing, or whatever the case may be, but you're gonna have hard work to do even at a great job.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, toxic jobs can have great parts.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: There can be a toxic work environment that you're in that there's parts you just don't want to give up because they're so great.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So there's that spectrum there where you're like, wait a minute, a toxic job can have good things, or a great job can have bad things?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer is yes.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now, a great job can include failures in leadership.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: No one's perfect, right?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, your leadership can get it wrong, your boss can get it wrong, they can make mistakes, they can promote the wrong people, they can make the wrong choices.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: In toxic jobs, you can have a great team.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can be on a great team where you're like, man, I love my coworkers, and it can still be a toxic job.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: So there's not this clear-cut, oh, this is a bad job, this is a good job.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's gonna have to be some evaluation on your part to figure out where are the lines, what things are okay to put up with because life's not perfect, people aren't perfect, and I have to figure out how to navigate that in the world.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Where's that line between that and this is not okay?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is not somewhere I need to keep myself, this is not somewhere I need to stick around, I need to figure out how to get away from this.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I can tell you, that's a hard thing to figure out.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've been in jobs where looking back on them, I'm like, Tim, if I could go back and tell you you should leave that job.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been other jobs where I thought for sure it was a bad job and I needed to leave.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: And looking back on it, I go, man, there were some great parts about that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: I really grew with that job.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: That was important in my development.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's hard to see when you're in the moment, and it's also hard to see sometimes even afterwards, was that right or wrong to stick around or to leave?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: But here's what you need to do: you need to establish your own line.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: So most jobs, they're gonna be in the gray area, somewhere between great and toxic.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: But figure out where your line is, where you say, you know what, I'm not going to violate these things.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: For example, keys to look for.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Does it affect your health?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, is your health worth your job?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Now, there are some exceptions possibly, where you're like, you know what?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: For a time it is.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe you gotta figure out is it the job that's affecting my health, or is it the way I'm approaching the job that's affecting my health?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: I've I worked with a great boss once who said that he warned me about working too much.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And when he was kind of starting off at a role, it was a great role and had a great experience, he loved the job, and he got to be on the ground floor of building something.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And he kind of worked too much, and it affected his health, even though he was doing it voluntarily.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: So is that a toxic job?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a job he should escape and get away from?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it just that he needed to set better boundaries?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: And what turns out was he needed to set better boundaries, and that was his conclusion, is that it affected his health, but it was kind of his own fault too.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: But there are some roles where no, it's not your fault.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Your boss wants you to work all the time.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's no days off ever, there's no sick time, there's, you know, whatever the case may be, where you're just working too hard, you're burning out, you're struggling mentally, you're struggling physically, your health is important.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's a key line to look for.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Where's my line?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Where is it that I'm gonna say, you know what, this is as far as I'll go?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Another one that's really important is how it affects your family.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: If if your job causes your marriage to struggle, if your job causes you to not be able to see your kids, that's a pretty big deal.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to think long and hard about is this worth it?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because maybe you keep the job and lose your family, that's not a great trade.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to figure out where that line is too.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's your health, it's your family.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you can't find a way to win, is the next one where you know you work hard, you you try all you can, and you just can't get a win.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Where your boss is constantly negative, your your team is tearing you down, the the management is just always looking for a scapegoat.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you can't find a way to win, that's another line to look for to say, you know what?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be able to have success in my job.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Not everything, but I need to be able to say that I've made progress, that I've grown, and that I have improved.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be able to say that I can be successful in some way in this role.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then another key thing to look for is legal or moral violations.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: There are some things that your your employer may ask you to do that's just not right.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it is you know telling a client something is not true, or it is using the wrong software license knowingly, even though you're not allowed to do that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it is you know lying to supervisors, or whatever it is that you're required to do, or you're asked to do, or you're pressured to do, you need to figure out beforehand what am I gonna do?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Am I going to be okay with that?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is where's my moral line?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Where I say, you know what, some things are not a big deal, but these things are really important.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna violate that.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now, none of these things mean you just walk away right away.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: If it's gonna affect your health or your family, or you can't find a way to win, or there's a legal or moral violation that you're being asked to do, you can potentially go to your boss and say, I'm not gonna do this.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Or here's my lines, and this is where I have to be.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Is that gonna be acceptable?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes your boss will go, I never thought about that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's important to me.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, your health is important.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want you to lose your family.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: I want you to succeed.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: I agree that violating the law is not okay.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So all these things your boss may be okay with if you talk to them about it.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you need to know the environment because sometimes it's just not healthy to even say that.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know it won't go well.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love to say in a perfect world, talk to your boss.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: But we're not in a perfect world.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to evaluate is that going to be successful?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you test the water with something small.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Say, hey, you know what?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really feel comfortable doing this.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a way for us to not do that?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Or is there a way for me to not have to be involved in that?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And just see.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if they say, no, you have to do it, okay, that's a pretty clear test of the waters without making a big deal.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: But those are the key things to look for.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Now, let's go to the other side of this and look at normal.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because I often see people coming out of school, they they've not had a real, let's put in bale quotes, a real job before.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk software development.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: They haven't had a software development job.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so they come into this first job and they think that it should be all sunshine and roses.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk normal.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Normal is that you'll probably have a coworker you don't really like.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Normal is there are gonna be a group of people at work that don't include you.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like cliques or groups that maybe know each other for a while and you just don't fit in.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's normal.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna take some time.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Normal is working on legacy code.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: I know new developers hate to hear that.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: They're gonna say, you know what, I'm only gonna work on.NET 8 projects.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: You say, well, wait, dot net 8's not even out yet.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, nope, that's all I'm gonna work on.NET 8, that's what I'm gonna work on.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because only cutting edge.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Guess what?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Most organizations are still using.NET framework.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: It is what it is.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because those ships don't turn that fast.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you'll work with legacy code.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's normal.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now you can say, I want to hold up for something better, and maybe you'll get it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: But normal is a legacy code base.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then normal is also code that doesn't follow design patterns or best practices.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: It happens.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you're gonna say, you know, oh no, this is the best way of doing this, is this, and I can't compromise on that.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's not normal.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's not normal to have this perfect code base.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Normal is a code base that's a little messy or a lot messy, because life is difficult, life is fast-paced, and you don't always have time to be perfect.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: So normal is broken systems or processes.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you have a help desk ticketing system in place, or maybe you have an issue tracker in place, or whatever the case may be, that doesn't always work the way it should.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: You've got this perfect design in your head, but it never works that way in reality.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's normal.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Normal is poor documentation.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: All these things, if you really think about it, what do you do?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: When you build a software application, is it always perfect?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Does it always have every rule followed?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Does it have great documentation?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Does it have every process followed perfectly?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: No, of course not.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you actually start to build a real application, not just a little test demo that's so tiny it can be perfect, but when you build a real application, you start to realize that things are messy.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: You have to figure out ways to make things work, not just have this perfect pattern that just somehow drops in, makes everything work perfectly.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And documentation is always a struggle because you never feel like you have time.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: You want to move on to the next feature.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: You think you know it, and so you don't document it.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's normal.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: So be careful when you're talking about establishing your line and figure out if you're in a bad system, if it's really a bad system, or just bad expectations on your part.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: So let's balance that out.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: But if you figure out, no, you know what, it's not normal.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not something I have to live with or can live with.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: I need to figure out how to get out of this bad job.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: How do I do that?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first thing to do is work on your skills.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: You are responsible for your own career.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: You may say, well, my employer should train me, my employer should give me time.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, they should.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, they should encourage it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, they should give you, yeah, I don't know, all X'PASS from IMTM Corey.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: We offer it to employers, but you know what?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: They don't always gonna, they're not always gonna do that.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have to be responsible for your own career.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end of the day, you have to live with it.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: You may change employers three or four times or more, but you need to be a consistent voice in your skills.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to work on your skills, make sure they're up to up to the industry standards, and then polish your resume and portfolio.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure that you have your best foot forward, make sure that you are showing off the latest things you can do, the best things you can do in software development.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then start applying the jobs.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: But here's the trick: don't tell people, don't even tell your coworkers, don't tell your friends, don't tell anybody outside your family circle, and even then, keep it small.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Not your your uncles and your aunts and your cousins and spouse, stick with that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Stick with your spouse because you want to keep this small.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want this getting back to your employer.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Again, in a perfect world, you would tell your boss, hey, you know what?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just not feeling like I fit here.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna start looking for a job somewhere else, but I'll keep working, I'll keep my motivation up to work with you, I will keep doing my job, but just so you know, I'm looking elsewhere.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: In a perfect world, that works.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: In reality, that's not a good idea.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: So start looking for a job, but don't tell anybody.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then pick a job that supports you, as in you can financially take it, but also has a better work environment.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Take some lessons learned.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Say, you know what?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: I learned that this doesn't work well.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: When I go on an interview and they say, we work pretty hard around here, you figure out that's code word for we never stop working.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's code word for what's vacation.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you have to figure out, okay, I've learned some lessons now.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let me take those and apply them to looking at that next job.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Don't just look at a salary.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Look at the work environment, look at all those things that are signs of a toxic work environment and see if if they're there or if it's a pretty decent environment, if it's room to grow, if it's room to become a better developer, and there's support for that, and there's a good team around it.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Learn to see the signs of it and pick a better job.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the question at the beginning was also how long do I wait?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I just got this job and it looked great on the outside, and I started working in, you know, the first month was great, and then I started to realize how bad this is.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: I started getting blamed for stuff that I didn't really have a chance to do any differently.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I started getting, you know, negative reports from my boss for stuff that I can't control.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, things are just horrible, and I need to move on.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Is it too late?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have to wait a year?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: To wait two years?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: What do I have to do?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: How long do I need to wait?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer is you don't.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: If it's really that bad, if it's really bad enough where you're saying, you know what, I need to leave, then you need to leave.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: So polish that resume and portfolio up.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Start applying jobs again.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe contact some of those people that you had been in contact with before about previous opportunities.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Figure out how to move on.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you move from job to job to job to job and you last a month in every position, that's going to be a question mark on your resume.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, resume.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: If if I was an employer looking at your resume and I saw six jobs in six months, I'm gonna have a question about that.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say, you know, tell me about this because I don't want to hire you for a month.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna hire you permanently.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: So why is it you're moving on?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can have a good reason, that can get by for a couple of jobs at least.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you say, you know what?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: This looked great on the outside, and I got in there and I realized I've been lied to.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And these are the things I figured out because of that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: I asked you some questions in this interview to make sure that I, you know, didn't get into that same environment.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: I've learned some lessons from that, and that works great for a circumstance or two circumstances, maybe even three.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: By the time you get a six, no, that's kind of on you.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Either you're you are thinking things are toxic when they're actually normal, or you're just really bad at picking jobs and you need to figure out how to change that.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, if if you decide that's a bad work environment, move on.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope that answered your question.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the question.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: Again, if you have a suggestion, go to suggestions.iamtimcorey.com.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening, and as always, I am Tim Corey.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Def Questions.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Tim is committed to making it easier for you to become a developer.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you would like to help make more content like this possible, please like, subscribe, rate, and share Dev Questions.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: You can also send your questions to questions at IamTimcorey.com.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, remember, you are too smart and your time too valuable to waste it making all the mistakes Tim did.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: When you're ready to learn to think and code like a professional developer, head over to imtimcore.com and enroll in a course.