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How to Discover the Life God Wants for Your Family w/ John Cuddeback · Sword&Spade

• Jason M Craig (01:49.301) Friends, subscribers, listeners, however you're participating right now, welcome to the Sword and Spade Podcast. those of you who are longtime listeners will know that this podcast began as a magazine. We wanted men engaging in real life with real things, and print just has a good way of doing that. and if you're involved with those kind of things, it's unlikely you have not heard of John Cuddeback. He he's began, I think it began the blog Acorn or Bacon from Acorns. which the first time I saw that, I don't it must have been I was already raising pigs in the woods, so I knew I was delighted at at the reference. and he was talking about his homesteading. he's actually I would say responsible in the sword and spade fraternist world of men beginning to talk about their families in their homes as households again. I think that's thanks to John recovering that word for a lot of us. It's not I actually think the change that we can understand our country, what it went through when it comes to the family is that our households became houses, temporary places of enjoyment and investment that will be flipped and changed multiple times instead of a a stable place of human flourishing. So I've got John on here. He's a friend. I don't I don't know where we met, but we met and we've been comparing notes for some time. I've appreciated his wisdom. He's ahead of me he's a better man than me, as far as I can tell through the internet. And he recently came out with a book called If you don't know John, go look up his bio. I'm not gonna read your bio. That's always awkward to sit through. So I'm gonna so just jump through this new book that I have. I actually blurbed it on the back, which makes me famous with you. LifeCraft Team (03:17.774) Don't count on it. Jason M Craig (03:31.625) The Intentional Household. I was delighted to get it. I read it first as a PDF when the publisher sent it to me. It was great. It's so much better. So now I've got some marginalia to share with you. But it's called The Intentional Household, Living As If People Mattered. so I'd like to ask you about how, you know, the you know, the the coming together of this book, why you're, you know, why you wrote it. But my first question is it's it's interesting that we today talk about things like intentional community. And some people feel weird about it, but the fact is if you're unintentional, you won't have community. so you wrote the intentional household lizing living as if people matter. So I wrote down, if I have an unintentional household, will people stop mattering? LifeCraft Team (04:17.102) Hmm. Well, how how about this? They won't stop mattering, but you won't be living in observance of how much they really matter. And frankly, to some extent is that not all of us. W we don't really live in the truth. We're not really responding to reality as it is. people matter because ultimately of God in his plan for them, for us. all together. And so in a sense the t intentional household streak seeks to live in observance of that. It it seeks to make that truth really operative every day. Jason M Craig (04:59.189) Well, you did a good job of laying out the principles in the book instead of I don't the any kind of attack, if you will, on the way we live today. It's very subtle, it's gentle, I would say, but describe, I guess, you know, if you wrote this book, it's because we're not living intentionally as households. So what is it I mean, I guess you you kind of know what this looks like. What is it what does it look like in our modern world? Like how do I identify an like what happens when we are unintentional? Why do you have to write the book? LifeCraft Team (05:25.91) Yeah. Well well yeah, exactly, 'cause those those those really those two questions go together. I I I tell people, you know, Jason, that it it it was really two things that I saw and I can just kind of make this nice and neat and clean. I saw something pretty ugly and bad and I saw something beautiful and good. And th i I mean ug o ugly ugly bad in the sense that it's ugly, but it's it's part of God's providence, it's part of the gift, and that is the challenge of living in a culture of death. We have to th it's not about complaining w whining. We have to live in the truth of the challenges of our day because they're real. And sometimes I I I fear that people think, well, we shouldn't spend much time thinking about those problems because well that's gonna make us anxious and we're and we're dwelling on the bad rather than looking at the good. And I think something very important is missing there. For instance, someone might say we should just live in hope. Hope I think comes out most beautifully when it is in the context of seeing very clearly how bad things are. Right? St. John Paul II called it a culture of death for a reason. It's silly for us not to recognize Jason M Craig (06:34.666) Right. LifeCraft Team (06:42.136) That in several serious ways, the common practices of our age are working against our ability to follow God's plan in our home. And so we have to be intentional because we're gonna have to, we have to kind of rediscover something. There's been a kind of break. Sure, we're still part of a broader tradition, but the reality is the passed down wisdom and practices have been fundamentally truncated. There's there's been this break and this and and this is this is where then okay go to the positive side. I am so moved by seeing how the Holy Spirit is at work. God is moving, especially I see this in young couples getting married, who know so clearly that they want something different. It might be I want something different from how I grew up, or I know it's gonna have to be more intense and intentional than my growing up just because things are that much worse in the world around us. So God's at work, you have many people who are saying, All right, we want something different. But the reality is, Jason, I see this again and again. men especially really suffer from a lack of example, a lack of of really having those principles, those right concepts and terms and distinctions that are going to help us really sort this stuff out. So that's the origin of the book. The book comes from I'm blessed to be a teacher and to be studying. great men living and deceased, studying with the great men living and deceased for for many, many years, trying to speak about this, think about this in the classroom, and at the same time then trying to do it on the homestead with my wife in the family. And and and that has been a a great blessing of my being exposed to an amazing wisdom. An amazing wisdom, both from principles right down to very practical applications. And so now the book is needed because men need it. We all need it. Because n in the situation we're in, we need to be reminded. Some of us have to see certain things for the first time. We have to be encouraged. Hey, those things that something in our heart is telling us we want it to go this direction. We need to hear, yeah, actually, wow. Aristotle and Plato talked about this. Wow, yes, if this is part of our tradition, we can do this. Jason M Craig (09:00.809) Yeah. I really well, one, I think when somebody says, Well, let's just live in hope, and in a sense, can you stop pointing out the negative things? It's actually not hope. because hope is the virtue you need when things are dark. So I think the hopeful people are the ones that actually recognize I do have to do something different. And I what I appreciate is is yeah, I've been accused I actually like when you went from acorn to bake for t wh what I'm sorry. I'm messing up your old blog. LifeCraft Team (09:12.75) Yep, yep. LifeCraft Team (09:25.932) And you got it. It was bacon from acorns. Jason M Craig (09:27.903) Bacon from acorns, which if you're listening and you don't know, pigs love eating acorns. It's delightful to watch them eat them and then they turn them into bacon. So it's it's a when you have pigs, it's also a great thing that nothing goes to waste. It all just gets turned into other food. but you changed it to lifecraft where you actually just looked at the homestead as there's there's many lenses that it provided that are not provided what I would say maybe a typical suburban home and I think you've done it in a r in a way and I say it in this book. I think this is the maturation of a lot of your thought. Where you're doing it in a way where you're not saying it imitate me in a return to the land necessarily. but you are saying that there was a reason that there that at a certain time the family was stronger because there were certain principles that perhaps more naturally it was able to live by. Productivity, shared work. just easier time at leisure because you didn't have so many gadgets, like all these things. So this book really does give a lot of principles. In fact, if I were let's see, you had a lot of there's a lot of spots. In fact, even in the back, you have like really good in conclusions like what this is about. But here on this C page twenty eight, you say one thing is clear. The household will survive or be reclaimed only when we make a choice to create a vibrant home life and then take concrete steps to make it a reality. I actually I I did I I'll just I one of my marginalia here from is I wrote choice question mark. some of us might be forced to make it. you know, because of economic factors or actually I and I don't even mean a a total collapse. I actually think there are a lot of people that are finding I will have to live differently because I will simply not be able to afford and enter into the presented way of life. that's been proposed to me, as another guest said, an above average looking wife, an above average paying job, an above average size house, plus an above average size family, if I'm a Catholic, that I might not so I might need to do things creatively like grow some of my own food. So but that that is I think the thesis is that we do have some intentionality that we have to have. So tell me about then was this something I I haven't Jason M Craig (11:47.763) I've I've followed your blog, but I I have a neighbor who just loves listening to you and your wife talk about it. But how has this been unfolding in your marriage, learning how to live as a household? Like what's it done to your marriage? Because I'm just presuming that until you had these principles and then maybe even the homestead that you guys were kind of figuring this out together. Cause I think I'm like you We're we're pi we're we're using principles to pioneer a way of life that we would like to make inheritable, but it's not something that we completely inherited. There's is there's a certain pioneering spirit to a lot of a lot of that is going on. So what's it been like? I don't know, is this is this your wife come along the whole time? Have you guys always gotten along on your ideas on how this is gonna work or LifeCraft Team (12:13.326) Mm. LifeCraft Team (12:19.278) Yeah. LifeCraft Team (12:26.422) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great question. Great gr great question. You know, gosh, so so many angles there, so many things going through my head. you know, so many gifts. W why why is it sometimes we can wonder aloud that th that the gifts God wants to give us, they're so great that they often just they demand so much of us. And thus sometimes they're so incredibly difficult. I mean, i is not marriage kind of the archetype of that? something that's so beautiful, you never could have imagined it yourself. And it just demands so much of you that sometimes you just think it's gonna break you. And and and that that's been my experience. I'm I'm I'm very open about in in certain ways in certain ways, life gets harder as it gets better. And it and you know to the extent that we're you know God God's always there with us and in certain ways I I don't wanna emphasize the Jason M Craig (13:13.535) Hmm. LifeCraft Team (13:20.488) harder aspect. But but the but the beautiful thing is is I love to say, no matter how much whatever whatever problem comes up in the marriage, in raising children, in in in a homestead, in our in whatever form of household we have, it's always part of the gift that that is something I have to work through with my wife. And one thing I can say that I'm so grateful for, she has had the spirit, I have had the spirit, that we we come to one another and and we and we discuss it. And we take it to prayer and we just keep turning it around before our eyes. And we say, Lord help us and guide us. We're gonna make a decision. We're gonna do this. And and I'm convinced central to the plan of marriage. Of course, marriage is is the real epicenter of household in the full sense. We can have a household, even if it's a household of one, or if there's not a marriage, say anymore. That's all part of God's wonderful plan. But we see that this beautiful thing called household most fully in the in in in what comes naturally. Aristotle said that. You get married and boom, you have a household. I love that this is just of nature. All of a sudden you're responsible in being responsible for one another, you're also responsible for others. Children you maybe don't even have yet. Other members of the community of which you are a part. Marriage has a public aspect. It's not just about us. Now we have a household. We're responsible for a little community within a broader community. Again, you couldn't make this stuff up. And it's gonna it it's gonna demand so much of us. Those problems come along, and that's what deepens our friendship in marriage. And and so you say, how how how's it gone? It's it's it it it's it's gone, you know, it has demanded so much that our relationship has a color, has a richness, has a beauty to it that can't come except by shared travails and suffering that comes of aiming from something high. And so, really, in a sense, that that's what this book is all about. It it is the the plan is always better than we've realized, especially for married couples. Look at how rich what you're called upon to craft is in concrete, astounding ways every day. And and and it and it's gonna it's gonna make your marriage as you make a household. That is the plan. Jason M Craig (15:46.003) Mm. Wow, that's beautiful. I I wrote down life gets harder as it gets better. I think maybe some of your other writing would help in that, that the only way that's true is if you're actually increasing in virtue. and but that's the way this is, you know, there's been a lot of discussion and around the LifeCraft Team (15:59.182) Amen. Jason M Craig (16:05.855) the church these days about how difficult it is for young adults getting married and meeting each other and it's just you know anyway, that's not a topic with today's podcast. But the thing to tell them is that it's that you're not going to actually get that virtuous without your spouse. So when you find the blemishes and the problems, you you know, d don't don't ignore red flags, but you're gonna have to jump in because the way life gets better is it gets harder and the way you grow in virtue is because it gets harder and then it gets better. It's this 'cause LifeCraft Team (16:32.44) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And in a sense the virtue makes it easier. I th there there are these paradoxes, they're not contradictions, they're paradoxes. And I don't wanna sound Kantian when I it's not li it's not about being difficult, right? God didn't design life to be difficult. many of the difficulties, of course, are due to sin. But God's plan is always able to incorporate everything and and we just we move forward in trust and faith and in and and it and it does get better. and we and we learn to suffer together. But golly, let's let's let's get the sufferings that come from or part of following his plan, rather than a different kind of suffering that comes from a rejection of his plan. Right? That that's that's a different kind of suffering. The suffering that comes with with his plan is a suffering that's completely compatible with true joy. Jason M Craig (17:30.057) Yeah. All right. So that being said, I again, this is kinda subtle in your book, but this the centrality I I would say your book is D O A, Dead on Arrival without the father. being in fact there's these are very much leadership roles, even even headship roles where these principles were going to I don't know, we're gonna begin with right. We're gonna begin with these principles. and one of the ones you begin in, I think is beautiful, is just the fact of food. LifeCraft Team (17:43.403) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (18:00.322) Uh-huh. Jason M Craig (18:00.661) I think you have the comment, you know, you know, somebody's gonna be somebody one thing you know about everybody is they're either hungry now or they're going to be. so that that seems to be a place where you began a lot. So and the reason I bring that up too is when you ask people but what sounds like these esoteric ideas of household and productive household and work and and maybe we jumped ahead. They're picturing, well now I gotta go kill a pig in the backyard or something. But LifeCraft Team (18:07.896) Yeah. Jason M Craig (18:24.085) The when I ask people that seem to be good at culture, meaning they have culture, and people ask them, how do we have what you have? They they seem to always begin with and return to food. That there's some sort of it's a place where you're going, you're going to have to eat tomorrow, and you can change the way your family understands what's going on by the by the habits and the culture that surrounds this this like biological natural fact. You're gonna have food. So so give us some, yeah, give us some insights on how. LifeCraft Team (18:34.626) Mm. Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (18:50.776) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jason M Craig (18:54.039) how recovering the household especially begins with food. LifeCraft Team (18:57.56) Sure, sure. And so much of course of your work, Jason, is so is so much in in this zone, just kind of recognizing th what a part of the gift of being human is this gift of our body and our bodily needs. I I always love to go back to the philosophical principle that God has always designed things better than we realized. If we lean into things that would have just seemed to be like, well, that's interesting that he did that, God always always is very intentional. An intentional household is responding to God's intentionality. God set up every aspect of this. The intentional household is just recognizing, the fact that we have these bodily needs is then God's plan for the context for addressing the deeper needs. Th th this in many ways is the the real principle at the root of the household. It the amazing the God's genius. his wisdom that in addressing bodily things is the way that spiritual goods are addressed. Let me give you an example. I I I love this one. This is my favorite ever since this just kind of came to me about changing diapers. Let's just think about this for a minute. We often don't stop and and realize hey, it's not accidental that babies poop. All right? That the that that they need to have their diaper changed several times a day. Something didn't go wrong, something's going right. In God's plan then, there needs to be someone, right? You know, God forbid that, you know, this this they'll they'll probably try to come up with some technology that will try to make this go away. I mean that that that's that's the paradigm. The paradigm is if it's in any way unpleasant, come up with a technology to try to to try to make it go away. But that is exactly how we would miss the plan of a loving parent, probably most often the mother, but certainly dad a lot too. You have to you have to be this distance from the child several times a day as you change the diaper. And you take that opportunity, please God, to look into the child's eyes and to you and you speak words of life. Even if that child understands not a word, the child understands and feels it. LifeCraft Team (21:21.57) This isn't accidental. This is one of the Aristotle said the household is the community designed by nature to fulfill the daily needs of human persons. The daily needs of human persons are are very complex. They include all these material, bodily ones. And there's and there's also these very rich ones from the very start that are spiritual, that are psychological. Children need to be told and they need to feel again and again that they are loved. That they belong, that the life is good, they have a place in the world, and and that changing a diaper, feeding a child, caring for wounds, is the natural context where in pr in profoundly beautiful and irreplaceable ways those things are conveyed. So so really, Jason, the the thing here is it's the beauty of the ordinary, it's rediscovering the ordinary. Jason M Craig (22:15.871) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (22:19.382) And leaning into it. And and and it's a lot more than that. As you know, I like to say it's the porch time. It's the sitting around the fire time. It's the it's the shucking corn together time. It's the singing around the piano time. This th these things are not peripheral. They they were once ordinary. Given what human nature is, they should be ordinary. We need to rediscover in our own context, make them ordinary. For this is daily life. Jason M Craig (22:50.547) Yeah, that's interesting. The well one, I asked you to talk about food and you talked about poop instead. So I'm just gonna point that out. LifeCraft Team (22:56.142) Dang it, I hate it when I do that. Sorry, sorry. So that was all that was all by way of saying, Jason. Sorry about that. Got a little carried away. What what I'm say what I'm saying there is lean into the ordinary. So take all that principle, just say, yes, thank you for the bringing me back. You got to do that to me. That when someone says, I'll anticipate the question. I love it when people say, all right, so this what's the one first thing you're suggesting? People, especially if they're a little discouraged about what they do. Start with your meals. Right now I'll even say this. I don't care where the food comes from. Get all your food from a shelf at Martin at at your your mine's Martin's, your local food store. Then in any case, how you eat it together in an intentional way, of bodily presence, with manners, attuning to one another, listening, speaking, lingering afterwards. That's in everybody's everybody's power to do. Yes, do I like to expand out from there and say, hey, part of the gift. is the art of cooking the food. Part of the gift, if you expand it out when possible, those be sorry, those beautiful arts of how you produce the food. So all of that we just keep discovering these different kind of layers, you know, skin of the onion as it were, of wow, that's that's where you begin bec because it's just so ordinary and right there for us. Jason M Craig (24:25.097) Yeah. There's something yeah, we we know in in some ways, well as a at least as a father, when you depart from the company of your family, the most basic reason is so that you can feed your family. I mean that's the that's the best and most you know, maybe besides going off where it's quiet and I can actually pray. But after that it's to it's to earn a living so that I can buy food, so that I can feed them. so it is a sort of culmination of our life to be together at the table. And I I I remember when I was so I was a Protestant for some time. I didn't really grow up with anything and became a Protestant and of the sort that was very anti-ceremonial, to the point my church actually had a whitewashed room with no cross because color was distracting you from the word. I'm I'm serious. It was but then I remember LifeCraft Team (25:13.07) Wow. Jason M Craig (25:16.979) inching my way into the Catholic Church and all of this stuff about food. you know, really, I mean, we've got we've got this sacrament that we're gonna eat, and then there's like the ceremony around it, and then there's like these customs of feasting, and then there's customs of fasting. And like all this stuff around food. But it really like hit me that wait, I already know this because once a year it My family would march a flaming dessert into the room in a procession and place it in front of me singing a song and I would blow out the candles and I remember there's you learn something about life that it is good that I am here, it is good to you know, I'm I'm being celebrated in that. And we had so it's yeah, the I and I appreciate you even bringing up manners because we had a man named Daniel Paternos, Who's he leads the Supra Society, which is teaching people the art of this Georgian, as in from the country, Georgia, art of of of toasting. It's this series of toasts and this family style meal. We had one at our house. It was beautiful. I mean, and by the end you're practically weeping. It's like for joy. It's just great. And we've adopted it as it because I have five sons. And they have a tendency to not civilize our meals. It ta it takes you talk about being intentional. It's being intentional, but teaching them how to how to actually celebrate at the meal, to to raise toast to one another, and and to learn how to praise as part of the meal. and then I love that the the act of toasting is because you have to then take a drink, which like the mass, the sacrifice is not over until the priests LifeCraft Team (26:38.282) Mm. Jason M Craig (26:58.655) has the drinks the chalice. So it's just this constant sacrifice renewing. That and that's where I think on our homestead it took us we were doing the food and the stuff on the periphery well. And it's only been lately, I think perhaps 'cause my children have been older, that we've been enjoying the meals and lingering around. So what's your recommendation then? I I just have 'cause I I have some friends that are of the French sort who LifeCraft Team (27:01.826) Yeah, yeah. LifeCraft Team (27:14.606) Mm, mm hmm. Jason M Craig (27:23.593) They like to feed the little kids and get them out of the way so that the adults can have a conversation. How have you done it in your household? Do you have all the kids all now you've got grandkids coming and ruining the silence. So LifeCraft Team (27:33.545) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, of course, as Ecclesiastes he says, you know, there's there's a time for everything, everything within reason. and and and so of course there's the time for the parents to be able to have conversation apart from their children. There's th there's that certainly c needs to be observed. It can be observed differently in different cultures. I I have to say, at this point when we're talking about our daily practices. I mean th the daily practice in the home, I think th the meal is where we're all gonna come together. And I I I I think that that needs to have a priority, especially this this is a thing, especially where our households and this is part of the historical aspect of the book, w in in and in and forging an intentional household. We need to be we need to bear in mind the principles, we need to bear in mind th the history here. Part of the challenge that we have is the way that We in general there's all these centrifugal forces taking us away, taking our time away. In general, we have less time in the household than they did in prior generations, than that which used to be ordinary. And so that gives the meal time for us a special significance of it might be the only time where everyone under this roof comes together at the same time. Hopefully also gonna c come together for prayer, such as the family rosary, right? But I mean in in in general. there's gonna be very few opportunities to all come together. So I I I think it's a time where we learn kind of each has its place. And it will be done differently in different homes, but I'd say that there's an amazing there's an amazing combination of children need to learn to listen. They need to learn to listen and not always be jumping in and interrupting. At the same time, they need to learn that they'll be heard. Jason M Craig (29:21.129) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (29:29.44) And this is where you talked about dads. Dads need to take the lead here. For gonna say, th if it's one place they're gonna step up, it's it's for instance, I'm gonna say directing that there be manners. I'm not gonna say enforcing it as though they're they're just the enforcer. The prior to any enforcing is is manifesting them, right? Giving the example, give giving kind and gentle direction. This is what we do, this is what we don't do, and sometimes Jason M Craig (29:42.975) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (29:59.04) Why? And and and often we have to do that right there at the table. Reminds the children. We no no we don't do that. I know you're inclined to do that. I know you thought it's funny, but no that actually we're we're we're we're not gonna emphasize that. we're gonna we're gonna do we're gonna do this. We're gonna r out of respect for one another, we're gonna make sure that X, Y, and Z and not X, Y, and Z. And and and that gives a context. What's the point of that context? Jason M Craig (29:59.988) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (30:27.639) Living as if people matter. It's about relationship. It's about real presence. It's about hearing and being heard. And and so I think it's absolutely critical that mom and dad are both having certain things where they interact with one another. Children listen in in an appropriate way. The parents turn, tell us about your day. And and we expect everybody, everybody to listen. This this is culture. This is civilization. Jason M Craig (30:54.133) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (30:56.355) You talk about the an epidemic of young people who don't know how to look anyone in the eye, they don't know how to listen, they don't know how know how to have real conversations. I'm absolutely convinced by God's plan, the table is the main place you develop those fundamental habits. There's a place to begin. Jason M Craig (31:14.761) Yeah. I find the the the problem is that does require work for me. I've learned as my kids as when we have a cusp of there's enough that need to be engaged, they need the the conversation needs to be elevated. But it's very easily for the what's the younger ones then to sort of take it down or or the boys to be distracted by is I I don't know what your children might have emphasized at certain moments, but yeah, the emphasis can and I found one, you know, just a little t if I if I come prepared Sometime it's just a little I I'd like to I came across this today. you know, we had this robust discussion about AI. Of course everyone's discussing AI, but we came with a little more intentionality actually resulted in us having to watch the matrix as a requirement. But anyway, you we'll talk about media technology in a second. but I've noticed if I come, you know, in a in a certain way, my wife, you usually in our home, I because we have a farm, so we have a lot of big cuts of meat. So I typically take over the smoking or the cooking of some meat 'cause it takes all day and it gives me something to monitor 'cause I work from home. And it gives me a way to help prep you know, everyone's prepare for dinner. It sort of builds up towards dinner. It's it's it's like but she does a lot of the other prep, setting the table. In a certain way, I or in in the same way, I almost have to be prepared in the conversation. I need to bring something to throw out there and guide because children are really poor guides at conversation, I've found. They're good to be listened to. It's good to hear their ideas, but it's better to plant some and get them going than than just to hear the bodily jokes that will eventually come out. LifeCraft Team (32:47.202) No, I mean and Jason, if I could just jump in and really emphasize that I think at times there might be an overemphasis, an over intentioned w apartment overemphasis that's well intentioned of well we we you know, we d we we just we we give we we give place to the children. We we we want we want to give them freedom and we want them to be comfortable. Of course, all these things are a balance and all that's true. But a key Jason M Craig (33:06.207) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (33:16.36) Aspect of the Greek understanding of paideia, which means translated as education, but education in that rich broad sense of formation. The household is the primordial natural context of human formation. Educat education from the Latin kind of drawing out. That we need, especially as men, we need to get in the zone of. Is this intentionality? We need to be thinking clearly. We need to have these concepts. We need to have these principles. We need to be giving direction. It's God's plan. They don't, they don't already know this. That level needs to be raised. I I I saw culture, we are we we live in such a low culture. This is itself a whole side conversation. But home needs to be the home of culture. And I'm just gonna say in the past, again, which we learned from, we don't simply mimic, but we do learn from. e even i even the lower classes had real culture. They they might might have said kind of in in an old fashioned way, I might not be a gentleman, but I still act like a man. They might might not have the highest of manners, but they have genuine manners. And and and and dad needs to take the lead in this because manners are the beginning of morals. They're the daily expression of morals. Jason M Craig (34:20.459) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (34:27.455) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (34:41.71) Through the way that we show that we are living as if people matter. Manners are what give the context for deeper relationships. So many people think that formality is a barrier. That is that is an American misapprehension. It's wrong. You you don't have richer interaction by being hyper informal. What we've lost that we don't have more somewhat more formal hosting in the home. where all the children are part of that. They dress up a little bit. Any case everybody is neat. They're minding who they are. They're welcoming people in a certain kind of way. This is life. This is profound. This is formation again in in in an ordinary way. But but but who who does that? Who who really anymore hosts people? I like to say hospitality is a natural expression of the life that you're already sharing. Jason M Craig (35:21.397) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (35:40.151) If if we don't have decent manners, for instance, at our table each day, look out when the guests come over because parents will find, you know, and then then the children when they're throwing a French fry. well now children we don't do that when a guest is here, you know. A a as though well, you know, but the rest of the time yeah s so you know, so Jason M Craig (35:53.449) Right. Right. Yeah, that's right. Manners now or manals manners never. That's how we I don't know where we picked that up. but yeah, we've it's it's been LifeCraft Team (36:01.422) Yeah. That's great. Jason M Craig (36:07.411) It's quite the battle. I have but I r I recall having family members. Yeah, I grew up in a my family was good different times to grow up divorced homes. There's different ways that I I remember dinners. But they had meals together. I remember my grandparents were just very good, just of that generation. We it wasn't whether where they were on the socioeconomic scale. It was just dinner time was a time of formality. And the opposite of Formality is not informal, it's formlessness. And that is when, and we've noticed that when there's times of chaos in the kitchen, in the meal, it just feels what I like a little bit more like hell, you know, just noise, a lack of concord, everyone for themselves, everything just kind of spiraling off into nothing. So the opposite of formality is is LifeCraft Team (36:36.941) Nice. LifeCraft Team (36:49.4) Yeah. Jason M Craig (36:58.759) is formlessness and I've had formless meals and they they look they look like people grabbing a snack and sitting in front of the TV to see what happens. And I think I think the American misconception is an attempt at the the true nature of of virtue is spontaneity, that in the moment you're spontaneously able to do what is good. But that does but where that is trained is in the moments of the things that you know are coming that you do with intention. Worship meals LifeCraft Team (37:25.559) Amen. Jason M Craig (37:25.629) Prayer. I mean though these things you give form to them. this is something in fraternists we have to sometimes work and explain because we like to bring formality to the brotherhood of the men. Because we think of our social lives as only, well, it needs to be spontaneous to be authentic. It needs to be natural, not forced. but the medieval guilds, they're one, their annual meals were very formal and it is where they renewed the bonds with one another and they would go from from church to hall and have these meal and it was beautiful in that I think that intentionality helps us express our identity more so that when we leave those places, then in in you know, spontaneous moments we might be, for example, polite or courteous. But I think it's good as you say, fathers should understand that moment of etiquette, of manners, of custom, of decorum. It's not stifling at all. It's actually formation so that someone can be free to be, you know, spontaneous when it isn't obvious what to do. But they'll know what to do 'cause they've been formed in those moments. So Yeah. So did ta I've been struck recently, i I don't know if this has been is this something that you sort of woke up to because I know that you s you became more and more hospitable. or maybe you always were hospitable, but it was it was LifeCraft Team (38:29.25) Yeah. Well said. Jason M Craig (38:48.191) I've I've recently been moved at thinking over the the nature of the layman, and his how he actually is called to be evangelical in his vocation truly. Because to be to go and to be sent out is ludicrous. He he should not do that. That would be wrong. And if he were to neglect his family, scripture's pretty clear he'd be doing something evil. so okay. LifeCraft Team (39:02.05) Mm, mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (39:14.719) But I'm struck at how often in scripture a hospitality is the I think it's sort of the virtue of the layman. So is that LifeCraft Team (39:23.422) That's great. I I I I love it. That that frankly that fits perfectly with the kind of s the s the spirit behind the book, or a key aspect of it is I'm I'm convinced we don't speak so much anymore as St. John Paul II did of the new evangelization. But I'm gonna say I I'm convinced that the household is at the absolute center of the new evangelization, especially in an age where so many now have not received the most basic human formation in their own homes. Our homes take on this extra there there's this extra kind of challenge and call there of what we have to offer. And and and I love in what what behind your your the way that you framed that was the energy that we put into making our home truly be a place of of vibrant life. is precisely what's gonna kind of flow over and be that kind of light on a hill. And and hospitality is is a key aspect of that. And and that's where we should we should bear in mind, yes, it's it's to our close friends, but it's also to other people. And and some sometimes it's that n new family in the parish, those someone who, you know, the less fortunate. It used to be so much more common to open homes to the truly poor. And and perhaps in certain ways, unfortunately in our day and age that's become more dangerous and not practical in certain ways. But how can we how can we recover the spirit of that? That that the more that we follow the principles of God's plan of making our home a place of vibrant life and relationship where we put first things first. The more it is going to overflow, the more it will be truly generous. Marriage is always a generous reality. The word generous is a very beautiful one. It had it has in that aspect of kind of generating new life as well as kind of being giving to others. This is people are going to learn who they are. And even dare I say that there's a loving God and that there's a great that creation. LifeCraft Team (41:47.747) Being human and being a part of this community is an astounding gift. Hopefully even just by looking in the window of our home, nay more hopefully by being invited in and in some way participating, not to mention simply how then our children, God bless them, they go forth. Jason M Craig (42:10.313) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's beautiful. I think if if you don't know how it is that God wants you to, you know, share the gospel, you're not eloquent in in articulating these things or or you know, you just you just don't have that thing. It I can't tell you how special it is. I remember as a young Christian who did not grow up in a in you know with that kind of environment to be brought into a Christian home and to watch a man pray with his family to have a meal to pass the food was very moving. so I would highly encourage the fathers out there that if you want to have a i it's sort of the the the effect of the birthday, which is that that ache in our heart, as Joseph Pieper says, d is it good that we exist? LifeCraft Team (42:40.257) Amen. Jason M Craig (42:55.199) You know, the birthday is when the candle comes in, you know, the cake the flaming food in procession and song comes in and is placed dangerously before you within your reach as a one year old. but it's to celebrate that it's good that you exist, to to bring someone into your home and just to say, I'm so happy you're here. I have we we need to learn how to say those things again. It is good to see you. LifeCraft Team (43:15.523) Amen. Jason M Craig (43:17.523) Wow, what a great visit. We really appreciated our time with you. It's been a long time since I've seen you. I missed you. Join like those sorts of things. I think the the the dehumanizing, disenchantment, all the things that people talk about can be really readily overcome by just saying things that are true and inviting people to your table. You know, and that's that's where you can say them. And all sorts of good conversations can come out of that. Okay, John. LifeCraft Team (43:25.486) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (43:42.838) I'm sorry, we're I'm just I'm I feel like I'm just riffing too much off your stuff. I really like what you've got here. I wanted I wanted to go later in the book. You know, the the one thing that I think you you treated fairly, but not lightly, is so obviously a big one is food. That's where we can all start. But another one that's gonna be an obvious reality to most of our homes, even beyond busyness or family dynamics, is just technology. LifeCraft Team (43:48.206) It's all good. Jason M Craig (44:10.941) It's something where you and I are using right now. You and I are probably able to work from and with our home through it, which is another comment you made in the book. But yeah, how have you advised cause I just I just have an inclination that you don't have a natural affection for TikTok. LifeCraft Team (44:28.62) Yeah. Jason M Craig (44:30.101) But you have younger children, you teach college students. How is it that you go about teaching the the principles, the understandings, and the way that technology is shaping your home? And I think that's the way I'd like to frame the question, is that it is shaping your home. so h what sort of principles are you allowing it to to shape and how does it actually take shape? How are you advising people? LifeCraft Team (44:51.906) All right, well, about this? In in in in in the book, and of you know, as you mentioned, there's eight principles. The fifth principle is channel technology to the true good of the home. That follows upon something that we've been spending a bit of time talking about. Principle three is making good work central in the home, and principle four is enacting true leisure. And so that's a great topic in itself. It's the other side of the coin from work. So I love I love kind of restoring the ordinary is restoring good work in the home, regardless of what our profession is out there. We need to be looking at what are we doing to have that normally kind of manual labor, simple labels, the home arts, and this is wherever we live, urban, suburban, rural, that you need to have some genuine work that's going to be a good context for shared life. Then we need to have this leisure time or richer sense of leisure that's not just amusement. This what I like to call the times of plenitude, where again you really learn to live in the presence. And right now you're thinking, you're not thinking it, but you could have been thinking, John, that's not what I just asked you. I just asked you about technology. No, but this is the answer. Because we have to have a clear vision, a positive vision of what we want. Jason M Craig (46:07.751) Mm-hmm. Those are the things that rob, yes, yeah. LifeCraft Team (46:18.37) The reason the technology is running rampant over homes, I say this with conviction. Even among people whose whose intuition tells them my children shouldn't be on TikTok. Or maybe I shouldn't be on TikTok, or w whatever exactly it is. I sh I shouldn't have this phone so much. There's so many things where where something in us is telling us that we've got a problem. The reason we're not addressing the problem is we don't have a rich enough positive view of Of the life we're trying to build. And that's again where the intentionality comes. Intentionality is only possible when we have a clear sense of the principles and the concepts of the positive vision of what we're trying to build. And it and it's work and leisure. That's why, especially front load, because it's been the loss of those ordinary things which we need to rediscover. When we have a positive sense of what kind of work, what kind of leisure we we have, we recognize, but we're not always going to get the late latest gadget for the kitchen. We're not always going to get the latest gadget for the yard or for home decoration or for whatever it is, because we realize often those gadgets actually end up undermining our practice of the home arts. And the home arts practice, we're not practicing simply for their own sake. In this day and age, in these dark times, I it it's we intentionally choose them, especially for the sake of relationship. I I tell people this with complete seriousness. I know it sounds like a joke. I got Pigs because I wanted to deepen my relationship with my children. Way more important to me than the good food. I wanted to raise pigs because I wanted to raise them with my children. And I I I I certainly didn't do it perfectly, but I I I I got I think a kind of generous affirmation from the Lord one day. I know it sounds like a joke, Jason, you know I'm not joking. When I was walking back from the barn having castrated pigs. Jason M Craig (47:47.093) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (48:13.794) with my twelve year old son. And we were walking back and it it had been a hot, dirty, nasty but successful experience. Walking in silence, and my son just said, Daddy, I love working with you. Jason M Craig (48:30.923) Hmm. LifeCraft Team (48:33.942) I said, son, I love working with you. And we just walked on. And in many ways, that to me says, speaks volumes of what my hope, of what my dream has been, because it's about relationship. And so that's where I say when we recognize that the loss of those contexts for presence, those contexts for connection and relationship, and knowing one another and trusting one another. And growing in responsibility for one another. When those are lost, we we've lost something irreplaceable. So with that in mind, we're gonna say, all right, we're gonna use these technologies to this extent, and the not these maybe at all, or these technologies in this way, these times, it's it's all in the positive life that we want. And it the leisure. It it's it we need to read aloud more together. But reading aloud starts to look or even feel maybe boring or too hard because we've gotten lazy by being always able to flip on the movie. It's it's often recognizing what is the technology gonna replace. And sometimes it's gonna it's gonna be a hard truth. But that that that Jason is I'm just saying, what I what I say to people is get get sit down and really visualize and conceptualize and talk about the kind of life you want, then you'll know. you'll know how to think about those technologies and where you're gonna have to say no and where you're gonna make the compromises and whatever. Jason M Craig (50:15.583) Yeah. Cause if you just you know, if you if you put the f if you put the phone down and there's no life behind it, you know, then you've created a vacuum. It's just gonna be filled with something else, most likely. no, I I've found that we we had this very serious discussion last night about technology and all that. And it is it actually is it actually augmenting the thing, making your work better? Is it augmenting the work and the life that you're already doing? If especially if you're sure that that life is worth doing. I mean, I don't LifeCraft Team (50:24.664) Totally. Jason M Craig (50:44.483) you our c we we milk cows and w we decided to get the milker instead of hand milking. I hand milked for six years. So we ended up getting the milker because we wanted to go grade A and we and now it actually it's it's very just if anybody's interested in milking cows, it's much easier to rotate milking duties if you have a machine than rotating hand milking. That's there's there's reasons behind that, but it's just it's cleaner. It's actually gentler on the cow. but we just recognize, okay, this is going to replace the silence of of LifeCraft Team (50:51.106) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (51:12.603) milk barn by ourselves, but it also allows more people to be involved. Okay, so now we can be apart because we're washing together. We can it's not just one person under the cow. We can be there. We're moving more cows along. and then the joke is the kids were like, Well, have you heard these dairy farms that have robot milkers on And they just the robot then we wouldn't even have to milk. And it's like, yeah, all we have to do then is get a robot to drink the milk and we can just get completely out of the picture. LifeCraft Team (51:34.195) There you go. Jason M Craig (51:37.248) But it's i to have a cold I I would my experience when I talk to people that are struggling with the phone or with that with their own children is well, if it's not actually displacing or replacing anything, it's really just filling a void. The easier way to deal with technology is to edge it out with life, not to try to you know, restrict it into oblivion. It's just to obviously recognizing when it's doing something to you that's evil. But I thought this was an interesting part in your technology chapter. LifeCraft Team (52:03.63) Yep, yep. Jason M Craig (52:07.579) you said the household by its nature inclines towards some level of self sufficiency as a center of human life in both work and leisure. So we would think that the best use of technology would be that it would help us in our self-sufficiency, of being able to take care of ourselves. And while new technologies often promote promise self-sufficiency, the reality is quite otherwise. Households have become increasingly dependent in everything from food, clothing, and shelter to the instruments of work and recreation. Few effects of the advance of technology are so apparent as the rendering of the household dependent on a plethora of outside entities. That we we experienced that in the in Hurricane Helene. the inability, even out here in the rural countryside, of people to care for themselves without the gadgets. primarily of amusement. I think that was the biggest eye opener. When the amusements were gone, neighborliness came back quickly. in fact the young the young man across the street wouldn't leave me alone every time I was milking the cows. Like, what are doing over here again? He was just he was just bored. But LifeCraft Team (52:58.797) Right. LifeCraft Team (53:04.598) Yeah. LifeCraft Team (53:09.289) Ha ha ha. Jason M Craig (53:10.939) yeah, tell us tell us more about what you mean by this, that it's it makes us dependent, the technology, 'cause it's s we're told it makes us liberated from the drudgeries of the very things you're telling us to do. LifeCraft Team (53:20.086) Yeah, yeah. And and and and and I really owe this w Wendell Berry has brought this out so much. I I I remember when I first read the line our our our places have become pardon me, our homes have become a place of consumption and not production. And it's just like scales drops from my eyes. And it's not i look, we it's not about production, it's about people. And relationships. There's a such thing as going too far, and well, it it it's not about my I we won't need anybody else. No. Civilization is is is a masterpiece, culture is a masterpiece of interdependence. But the beauty is when it when the household has that appropriate self-reliance, that's appropriate self-sufficiency that's still very much in various ways depends on the rest of the community. It's like h how how do you express it conceptually? It's it's very difficult. You know it when you see it. I mean you think of like th these Amish communities, very often for many of us it's where you can now most get a visual on it. They they need one another just to build a barn. So it's obviously that the traditional household is not completely self sufficient. I'll go out there and live in the woods by myself. This is this is ridiculous. Jason M Craig (54:37.267) Mm-hmm. LifeCraft Team (54:45.954) We're part we're part of a broader community too. But for that broader community then even to have the appropriate self-sufficiency, so this this is this is all connected. Villages Wendell Berry writes about this too. The household loses its appropriate integrity, your village loses its appropriate integrity. So we become completely at the beck and call of large corporations, right? This this is not conspiracy theory, this is just obviously what's happening, and it breaks down our connections within the household. and within within the village. So just restoring a certain basic competences is just obviously natural. A household should and to me, the the the real go to one, I mean again, we could we could do the food, but let's but let's switch it. Is is it's it's terrible when at night, if it's just like, my goodness, well if we can't watch a movie right now, what are we gonna do? The the that talk about a loss of a fundamental human capability that we could make music together, as you know so well, or or or stell tell stories. Where are the storytellers? We don't have storytellers because we don't have households. Storytellers come from households. They're raised in households. They they they because of those the that because of that porch time. Jason M Craig (56:05.418) Hm. LifeCraft Team (56:14.306) Because of that around the piano time, because that around the fire time, because of that in the garden time all all together, we we turn into storytellers and and you have these basic competencies of shared life. We don't want to be dependent, for goodness sake, especially today, on Hollywood to entertain ourselves. It so breaks my heart when I see parents just just feeding again, there's a place and we can't hide from it, but when kind of the basic entertainment of our children is this is this often trash. So so it's a matter of quality control. It's a matter of basic human competencies and the joy that that is just clearly pertains to the nature of this amazing little community called household, that we have those competencies and we develop them and we pass them on. Jason M Craig (57:07.221) See the reason that is s so much more liberating than what gets passed around in Catholic media, which is typically I I would just say if if we're reduced to consumers, then a lot of our cultural and even religious life becomes comparing with each other where we draw the lines in the sand against an encroaching culture. Right. It is just I mean, it just keeps coming up a lot the courtship culture. You know, all these people are just comparing notes that they're getting online and the reason is because it's essentially dating, which dating is courtship out of context. And the the context of courtship is Within a community, guided by fathers, other families, mentors there, intergenerationality. Cause it cracks me up all the advice that people are seeking about courtship. It's hilarious. There's these long videos by like priests, which I'm sure are very wise. There's these young adult influencers, which probably have gleaned a lot of helpful insights. I'm like, if you want to learn what it about marriage, you should probably go talk to married people. But like even that doesn't these basic things. But what you're describing is liberating because instead of LifeCraft Team (58:07.543) Yeah. Yeah. Jason M Craig (58:13.619) the the war being one of consumption, which is what am I gonna purchase or not purchase, or what am I gonna censor or not censor, or what am I gonna allow or disallow? That's exhausting. That is it's that's the anti culture of mass culture of just consumerism. You're actually describing instead of drawing the lines, the the point is to make your own. Right? Instead of being and to be and that is if the household has some self sufficiency, maybe it begins, I know how to cook a meal instead of having to Uber it in. But when you do that, you gain not only do you gain self sufficiency and some now I'm alone, you gain the capacity to be human. Now I know how to feed myself. Now I know how to tell a story instead of just watch a movie. Now I know how to make music instead of just to put on the next playlist. Now I know how to grow a tomato instead of buy the tasteless, nasty one from the grocery store. Like The the liberation of building an intentional household from my perspective as a young man who's who's seen or I'm sorry, I'm not young anymore. I c I'm 41. Younger than you, John. I said younger than you. It's it's a liberating idea to say, no, actually it's exciting because you're what I'm telling you to do is go build something, not just go censor your family against the all the world is just not that powerful. It's just go to your front porch, turn it off and make something. Well start whittling with your son. LifeCraft Team (59:12.162) Ha ha ha. That's right. Jason M Craig (59:33.248) Get your son, teach him how to whittle, sit on the front porch, and you know, before you know it, a neighbor will come by and you'll wave and they'll report you for giving your son a knife. so that that being said, I'm gonna I don't want to skip people can read the book. The principles you can read them at the beginning. So I'm not giving any anything away, but I love your the the perfect ending, which is aging in the home, the bonds across generations. Cause if there is I had that big I mean the entire book, Liturgy of Land, was based off that aha moment from Wendell Berry, that that our f our homes are consuming instead of producing. That's the f that's I mean my big understanding. and then the next one was realizing our homes are now transitional assets of investment very often. And so they naturally have a disconnection from generations because they're sort of like floating in Zillow space, right? Instead of being in a place, they're floating around in the xillosphere as a temporary dwelling to to be flipped later. But to think of a home as a place where generations dwell, how is that taking shape for you? I mean t yeah, tell us more about why it's important that our households And and it maybe I'll put it this way. Tell me about the insufficiency of the nuclear family. LifeCraft Team (01:00:59.404) Yeah, yeah. again, God's plan is always better in in the plan for the household it it is revealed to us in varying ways. Some very powerful ones, I think the most powerful are through the weak, through the vulnerable, through the needy, the young and the old. Whatever home is, whatever household is, it's a place to begin life and it's a place to end life. And so it it opens out these horizons of the richness. There's so much involved here. I I I I try to make the case there that often people say, Why have we why have we forgotten the household? Don't worry, I am asking answering your question. Why why why why have we forgotten the household? What what what's going on in our society? And there's different ways of looking at it. ultimate always goes back to a rejection of God, but we have a skewed hierarchy of values. We we value success out there. versus character and relationships. Home is a place that always is primarily about those simple, ordinary but most rich things character, relationships. And so that's why it's gotten left in the dust, because we're focusing on other things. Well, in a very similar way, look at how we think about old people. They tend to be our object an object of pity rather than of honor. And in and and I in and I use Cicero's book on old age, it's so telling the way this this this wise view in that we see here in Cicero of the old person is the one that we turn to because of the wealth of experience, because we recognize that growing in wisdom is in a sense the central project of life. So someone who's old is not someone to be pitied. It's someone to be honored and turned to. So that it's clearly such a key part of the household's plan that there need to be those elderly who have the gifts to share of their experience, their insight, in general you know, their successes and their failures, and you know who are able to help us give give us that perspective. Y I mean, even to the young, I I I know your bodily desires right now seem like LifeCraft Team (01:03:25.246) you know, they'll never that they're just always gonna be this throbbing, driving thing. Actually, you know, th that that will change. And ultimately you'll start to hopefully have a a a broader perspective. This is this is part of a beautiful plan. The bodily changes, the weakness is actually part of the beauty and the strength. It gives more of a focus, an opportunity to focus on the higher things. Throw in with that, remember going back to our principle of The bodily needs are the context, God couldn't have designed it better. This is the direct analogy to changing diapers, indeed. We could I didn't even think of this. Sometimes it is changing diapers. Jason M Craig (01:04:05.576) Mm. LifeCraft Team (01:04:10.644) Even of the elderly. And once again, you gotta come close. And maybe now it's not you speaking, it's you listening. And there's just so much beauty written into when the young of whatever degree of youngness have to care for the aging. This isn't accidental. It's not, my goodness. How am I going to fit this into my life? I know it feels that way. But we were made for this. This is part of the plan. Because we're living as if people matter, as if relationships and character and wisdom are what make the difference. That's why the household should have, to the extent possible, this multi-generational aspect. It might not we might not be able to bring our aging parents, grandparents into the home. But that we in any case always have this attitude. Even if it's going back to our hospitality point, how do we integrate them and all they have to give us and what we can give them into our life? It's just gonna open up the household like a flower. Jason M Craig (01:05:21.215) Yeah. I mean I know it to be true in the the formation of young people. If you're disconnected I and I like I the artificial construct of the teenager, which I don't believe in, the perpetual adolescence, i if if it's a a non productive consumer that is not responsible for any generation below him and is insofar as possible liberated from listening to any generation above him. And so they're just stuck in this generational click. I think that can almost our households can almost a lack of maturation if they don't have the dignity of being able to take care of someone in their old age. We're we're just barely on the on the cusp of that, but it's it's it's happening and and it's something our my grandfather, I'm sorry, my father lives on the LifeCraft Team (01:06:02.734) Yeah. Jason M Craig (01:06:09.043) Everybody calls him granddad. So I call him granddad now because all the kids call him granddad. But he's now just an obvious part of the farm. He's not he's in a little apartment down the hill from the house, but he's just an obvious part of it. And I'm thinking, wow, how natural that is for them and how a lot of people ask incredulously, like that's that's a strange thing. But I can attest to what you're saying. It is it is beautiful. It's not as as you said, I don't know how you said it earlier, but the s the the way the story unfolds is better than you could have planned. so that's hopefully true in the end. John, LifeCraft Team (01:06:40.216) Yeah. Amen. Jason M Craig (01:06:44.415) Thank you so much for all of your wisdom. If anyone wants to find you, they should certainly buy the book, The Intentional Household, Living As If People Matter, and head over to Lifecraft. We're actually gonna be sending out I wanna I I love this book so much, I'm gonna write a little bit about it and send it out to our our fraternist folks recommending it because I think it gives really good principles where people could start when they're thinking through these things. and if you enjoyed this podcast, please consider becoming a supporter, member of Fraternus. You'll Sword and Spade magazine and all LifeCraft Team (01:07:23.096) Jason, thanks, th thanks for asking. I really appreciate it. God bless you. I just love what you're doing for Turner, Sword and Spade. And it it's it's it's very nourishing for me. And I'm really, you know, I think what I'm trying to do at Lifecraft is a is a very nice compliment. and and so thank you. Thank you for this opportunity to talk about these things. I always learn from you. It's just it's it's it's an inspiration. And let's let's let's keep doing it. Jason M Craig (01:07:49.791) We'll keep in touch. John, it's good that you exist. Thank you for being on the Sword and Spade podcast. LifeCraft Team (01:07:52.674) Hey. You too, Jason. God bless ya.