Latest / After Maghrib 🌙 / Shias killed everyday in Pakistan (Ft. Zain Awan & Nadeem Zaidi)

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Shias killed everyday in Pakistan (Ft. Zain Awan & Nadeem Zaidi) · After Maghrib 🌙

• 0:00
  Welcome back to the After Muffler podcast.
• 0:05
  Wherever you are around the world, it's fantastic to be
• 0:07
  back. I myself have been off for a
• 0:08
  couple of weeks, so it's really nice to be back again.
• 0:12
  You guys have had some fantastic conversations to listen to in
• 0:14
  the last couple of weeks, so make sure you catch up on those.
• 0:17
  At the same time, make sure you subscribe, hit that notification
• 0:20
  bell on YouTube as well. So you can always, always TuneIn
• 0:23
  to the latest After Muffler podcast.
• 0:26
  Today we want to talk about something which means a lot very
• 0:29
  close to all of our hearts, and that is talking about the
• 0:31
  ongoing persecution in particularly Pakistan, but also
• 0:35
  in different areas of the world. But why that matters to us, why
• 0:38
  it's something that we should talk about?
• 0:40
  What about the recent events in Parachinar and ways in which we
• 0:43
  here in the UK or in the West can, can learn from the activism
• 0:48
  that that our fellow community members are doing both on the
• 0:51
  ground there and also from the West here as well.
• 0:54
  So Charlotte, we'll get into that conversation before we do.
• 0:56
  As always, it's my great pleasure to be once again beside
• 1:00
  said Ali. Lottery.
• 1:01
  It's not. What?
• 1:11
  Ali Hussein, How's it? Going.
• 1:13
  I'm better now, now that you're back for sure.
• 1:16
  Why Yasser and mum Dali? No, they done a great job.
• 1:18
  They all protect them, but it's. And you had some good.
• 1:22
  You're very different. You have different vibes.
• 1:23
  Yeah. And I think I'm very used to
• 1:25
  your chemistry and having a conversation with you, so I'm
• 1:27
  not going to say I didn't enjoy them.
• 1:29
  They were amazing, beautiful. But now I'm.
• 1:32
  Hamdullah Hamdullah Now the owner's mind said, Why do we
• 1:34
  want to talk about this? We want to speak about, I want
• 1:37
  to speak about this in particular because myself, you
• 1:40
  know, over the last few weeks and the last few months, I've
• 1:43
  really come across an increase in the rise when it comes to
• 1:46
  people attacking our beliefs, people attacking our, are they
• 1:49
  there? People saying we are
• 1:50
  disbelievers, we are kafar. I just want to understand where
• 1:52
  it stems from, who is being affected by all of this
• 1:55
  rhetoric. And I think we have two amazing,
• 1:57
  beautiful guests that are going to help us understand this topic
• 2:00
  in more depth. Absolutely, absolutely,
• 2:02
  absolutely. So it gives me great pleasure
• 2:04
  and honor to introduce our two guests, Zain Awan, Sam, Ali
• 2:07
  Hussein, Saddam, how you doing bro?
• 2:09
  OK and said the DMZ this time I can work on.
• 2:12
  That's great. Great job.
• 2:14
  How's it going Bluetooth? Come come from a bit of a
• 2:17
  distance. Yeah, yeah.
• 2:20
  How's the journey? It's all right, It's OK.
• 2:22
  I think there's a lot happening in the UK in the past couple of
• 2:25
  weeks, and I think that's also affecting some of the travel
• 2:30
  routes. Yeah.
• 2:31
  So yeah, like there's a lot of synergies in what we're
• 2:33
  discussing and actually in the context of what we are seeing in
• 2:37
  the UK as well. I'm pretty sure you can see some
• 2:40
  of those synergies and correlations as well.
• 2:43
  But yeah, it's a great honor to finally be here.
• 2:45
  I know we've been trying to plan this for a few months, and it's
• 2:50
  unfortunate that it's taking place in when the world is in
• 2:53
  such a sorry state. But I think these are personal
• 2:56
  conversations that we need to have.
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  And Inshallah is like followers of Ali Mohammed, we should
• 3:01
  embrace these conversations in a much more critical way.
• 3:03
  So I really appreciate the invitation, but how was your
• 3:07
  journey done? Thank you both for coming.
• 3:08
  My journey wasn't so bad, I come from South London, but for me
• 3:13
  I've been an admirer of this show for a long time, so it's a
• 3:19
  great privilege and a great honor to be here amongst the
• 3:22
  celebrity couple, that is, they have very good chemistry.
• 3:26
  Very good chemistry. I.
• 3:28
  Feel like, you know, in in order that we have the same kebab,
• 3:31
  Mehdi. So where, where the where the
• 3:33
  kebab behind? Yeah, so.
• 3:35
  I'm feeling more like the kebab right now.
• 3:38
  But but honestly, Jenny, listen guys, honestly, I want to be
• 3:41
  able to give you guys your props because there is a serious lack
• 3:45
  of content when it comes to representation for Shias.
• 3:49
  You guys do a fantastic job. You guys have been consistent
• 3:53
  and you guys have managed to strike a really, really cool
• 3:57
  balance where you know, it's not creating any controversy.
• 4:00
  I'm sure you get loads of hate, don't get me wrong, but that
• 4:03
  comes with being sheer. But you guys have got a really
• 4:07
  good podcast and I have no doubt that you're going to get 100K
• 4:11
  subscribers very soon. And inshallah this is going to
• 4:14
  go from strength to strength. And I think there's room for you
• 4:17
  guys to expand. So let it be said today that
• 4:20
  inshallah, after Margo has been expanding to New Horizons, maybe
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  I'll know. Maybe a full-fledged TV show.
• 4:26
  Good Charlotte. Then we'll take it one very
• 4:28
  fast. You never know.
• 4:30
  We'll get there. Whole TV station on.
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  My day never know. Make it happen.
• 4:35
  How about that? Yeah, man.
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  So listen, for those who don't know, St.
• 4:41
  Nadeem is a researcher, an avid reader.
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  He's, he's been working in the Shia community in the UK for a
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  long time, for the, for the 10:00-ish years I've known
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  Nadeem, he's been doing a lot of work on the ground here in the
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  UK, working to build and develop community centres, working to
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  develop business mindedness and entrepreneurship, which is
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  something I know, which is a passion of yours as well.
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  And at the same time, I know this is a topic which is
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  extremely close to your heart, the research you've done, you've
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  come from a very prominent family back home in Pakistan.
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  And obviously you're mixed heritage as well.
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  But the research and the activism you've had in this
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  field is something which is it's, you know, it represents
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  you and your values as well. Zain, For those who don't know,
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  Zain has worked with with families affected by Shia
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  killings, activists as well, both on the ground here and in
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  Pakistan. He is an undergrad from SOAS,
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  the developmental studies and Middle Eastern studies, where
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  dissertation explored the appropriation of Islam and the
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  Pakistan state, but with a special reference to minority
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  communities. He lived in Pakistan, if I'm not
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  mistaken, for a couple of years, 2018 to 2020 ish, which I'm sure
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  was was lots of fun and you worked obviously with with
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  families over there as well. Multiple award winner and a lot
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  of research as well. Can if I could just kind of kick
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  off and ask Zain, we'll start with you.
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  Why is this such an important? Obviously there are a lot of
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  times to discuss this, You know, I mean, in the last few years.
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  I read a stat actually earlier that you know, in, since I think
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  it's 1980s or something, there's been over media reported over
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  23,000 Shias killed in Pakistan. And that's obviously a media
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  statistic and that's not one which is truly reflective of the
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  true crisis. But why is today such an
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  important time to talk about this issue?
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  It's a it's an interesting question as to why today for me
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  personally, why did I get involved in in this?
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  It's not just because I'm a Pakistani or British born
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  Pakistani or I'm a Shia. It it has always been a point of
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  intrigue to understand how do we get from 1947 with the founder
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  being Shia himself, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Shia Itunashiri at the
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  time of creation of Pakistan to a point where Shia's, despite
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  being considered Muslim in the country, are given treatment
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  beyond actually minorities as well?
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  Because a lot of times we equate that Shias are minority in
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  Pakistan. Actually they're not. 20% of the
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  population of Shias, which according to some statistics is
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  about 18,000,000, are Shias. OK, And let me put that in
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  perspective. Iraqis, don't get me wrong,
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  significant Shia population, but the population of Pakistan alone
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  is far greater than the Shia population existing in Iraq.
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  It's the most significant Shi population in the world after
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  Iran. So that in itself shows us the
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  numbers and magnitude. Despite that, whenever I would
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  hear discussions in the community around why she has
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  been persecuted in Pakistan, there's no other simplification.
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  You know, things I'm sure you've heard too is like, oh, you guys
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  are emotional, you love Azadari you, you beat your chest the
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  most, etcetera. And this is what causes this
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  contestation. But it's actually something
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  which is historic because she also represented in Pakistan
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  across different fields and sectors.
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  For example, if you don't mind me saying, for example, your
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  mother-in-law was a very famous Pakistani news anchor as well,
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  right? Yeah, she was the only news
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  anchor. News Time.
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  Yeah, and we can go into that too.
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  But like there was, you know, she has represented both film
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  industry, arts, culture, Yeah, leadership and activism too.
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  So they make up a significant part.
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  So how do we get to a point where by 1980s onwards we're
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  seeing 26,000? Some figures, for example,
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  produced by Shahid Foundation State over the past 15 years,
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  we've had over 40,000 who's collating the numbers of deaths
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  when it comes to Shias being killed in Pakistan.
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  How is it being reported? Even the misinformation that
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  we've seen right now, what we're seeing in Parechanal is the peak
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  of, of negligence that the Shia community is facing on a mass
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  scale, both by the media and the state, reducing what is
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  happening, the cause of takfir against them as just a simple
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  mere land dispute. And this misinformation is at
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  the crux of what we face as Shias, not only in Pakistan, but
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  globally. And we can expand upon that a
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  bit more. But that's why I think it's
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  quite prevalent to have these discussions and to understand
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  actually, is this systemic? Is this something to do with the
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  state as much as it's to do with an ideology of takfiriism?
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  Who benefits from takfiriism? Who implanted, supported and
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  funded Takfiri ideology and that started, you know, during the
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  80s. But we also have roots of it
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  which existed in the writings of and the likes of people like MO
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  Doodi, who is a very prominent Mulana MO Doodi, a prominent
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  scholar who takes the DO Bundy school of thought before
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  partition and post partition. And his ideology is still there.
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  So they are ideological reasons, things there are political
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  reasonings, socio economic powers at play.
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  So it's it needs to be taken in that consideration, not just
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  that, you know, and unfortunately you've had Shia
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  commentators from non Pakistani backgrounds.
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  I remember famously I was on a panel and the speaker before me
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  said something along the lines of going through the different
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  Shia genocides across the world or Shia killings.
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  And then in Pakistan, you guys know, they're very emotional
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  people. And I was like, this is so it
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  reduces us as a community, but more importantly we need to take
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  it more seriously as to the significant impact that this
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  Shia populace is having in the global Shia community.
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  If I can just add something you know you said about Muhammad Ali
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  Jinnah for those who don't know and like you said he was 12 it
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  not Ashrae Shia the 1st. Prime Minister, even that's
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  debated quite heavily, to be fair.
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  Really. Yeah, I mean.
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  They say he was a smiley. The point is.
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  That the conversation even around his smileyism.
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  For example, he came from in a smiley family.
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  The historical account that I rely upon is the fact that when
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  he did want to go in, I think it's to do with his marriage.
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  There wasn't a permission or blessing given by the Khan and
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  therefore he changed into it's Nasri.
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  Albeit whatever, he doesn't matter.
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  It doesn't matter. Why?
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  Why shouldn't but the point? Came from a project Shia.
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  It's Nasri. Shia of some form.
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  He's the 1st Prime Minister, was Sunni.
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  If I'm not mistaken, the first law judicial in, in, in, in
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  government was Hindu, the foreign minister, the first one
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  was Ahmadi. Like we're talking about
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  Pakistan, which at the time was developed as a state to act as a
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  sanctuary for Muslims. Yeah, a safe haven for all
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  Muslims, for all Muslims. But now what?
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  We live in a world where. Part of it, yeah, is that it was
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  for all Muslims. Absolutely.
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  It wasn't a Shia leader coming in and trying to impose Shiaism
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  on the population. It wasn't a Shia leader coming
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  and saying, hey, you know what, because I'm Shia, I'm going to
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  enforce my beliefs and my way of thinking.
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  When everybody, the truth was he was trying to create a place
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  where every type of Muslim community could thrive, feel
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  safe. Because I mean, the horrors of
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  partition, Zen will know better than I because he's researched
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  it, but the horrors of partition would have left like scars and
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  trauma on people. So having a safe place in that
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  moment was essential. See, even when Jinnah receives
• 12:04
  the map of Pakistan, he says it's a moth eaten mutilated
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  vision of his of his Pakistan. And we have to also, I know
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  everyone will say whenever I speak, I always blame the
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  colonizer, but colonial, we're living in post colonial world,
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  right? Iraq's boundaries were also
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  drawn up by the colonizers. Differentiation and strategic
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  positionings of why certain regions have certain populaces
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  and why there is debated regional boundaries is a part of
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  the colonial ploy. And that's fine because that's
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  divide and conquer in practice and in its legacy.
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  Pakistan itself wasn't just this this vision of what what the the
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  founding fathers, quote UN quote, were fighting for.
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  But nevertheless, there is also something you should.
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  It's a safe haven for Muslims. But also Jinnah made it very
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  clear in his opening address that, you know, this is you're
• 12:54
  free. You're free to go to the
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  temples, to the mosque. This has nothing to do with the
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  affairs of the state. So he was, he was reducing
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  essentially he was saying that faith is you as a person and
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  you're free, you'll be protected.
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  But unfortunately what we have in Pakistan is this ambiguity
• 13:10
  when it comes to mom, the Legionna in terms of because due
• 13:13
  to his death, there is a void. There's a lot of compensations
• 13:17
  which are being made. And what's really interesting
• 13:19
  about this, the same people that root their ideology with the the
• 13:24
  so-called Thakuri scholars, they were against the creation of
• 13:29
  Pakistan or a Muslim state. They were the ones that called
• 13:33
  Jinnah Gafir Azim. So when we're talking about this
• 13:36
  chant of Gafir Shia Gafir Muhammad Ali Jinnah, you can say
• 13:40
  whatever you want about his personal life.
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  There will be people that will try and slander and say what
• 13:44
  he'd done in his personal life. But Islamically, he defined
• 13:49
  himself on the basis that he or she are there also references.
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  There's a really good extract from the film on Jinnah where
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  his sister is also a very strong activist, Fatima Ali Jinnah.
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  And they ask him, why do you let her involve like, why do you
• 14:02
  involve her in your politic? And his his answer is that he
• 14:05
  uses the narrative of Karbala, etcetera.
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  But coming back onto this point is you're looking at a time when
• 14:13
  Pakistan is inherited a piece of land.
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  It's on the basis of A2 nation theory, Hindus and Muslims as
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  separate civilizations. It's inherited a lot of Hindu
• 14:22
  populace. And then beyond that, it's
• 14:24
  having to constantly carve itself as a Muslim homeland.
• 14:28
  We don't have time for it, but there's a really interesting
• 14:30
  book by an academic at Oxford Fest and Devji looks at Muslim
• 14:35
  Zion and it's the relationship between this ideology of a
• 14:38
  Muslim homeland. And he argues in this book, this
• 14:41
  is not me, by the way, before somebody goes after me, but he
• 14:43
  argues that post 1949, when we have the first objective
• 14:47
  resolution, Pakistan enters a period of signification.
• 14:52
  And that's not just one type of like that's one type as well,
• 14:56
  Hanafi. And we're starting to see now
• 14:59
  that rise and the permeation of that does peak during the Zia
• 15:02
  hub period. But we need to also ask the
• 15:05
  question then if it was Zia who brought that about, why in like,
• 15:09
  you know, in the 60s did we see the, I think it's 1963 in Sindh,
• 15:13
  the theory massacre where we had over 100 Shias who were
• 15:17
  butchered with machetes. And we're in a time of Muharram
• 15:21
  and suffer right now. Yeah.
• 15:23
  This always happens during Muharram during the time when we
• 15:25
  are upholding the Azhar of Abdullah and Shia forms of Azhar
• 15:29
  in the subcontinent are both private and public facing.
• 15:32
  So This is why I wanted to basically go into research
• 15:37
  surrounding this topic because essentially now no Shia in
• 15:42
  Pakistan all globally, but I'm speaking about Pakistan can
• 15:45
  afford the luxury of being apolitical because whether or
• 15:48
  not you like to exist apolitically or non politically,
• 15:53
  the moment you wear your black shell balconies and you step out
• 15:56
  because for 40 days up until Arbane, even beyond that until
• 16:00
  Ferhati Zahra or either Zahra, Shias will be in a mourning
• 16:03
  period very, very visibly. Yeah.
• 16:05
  So the moment you step out, you already defined as and there
• 16:09
  there's demoralization as well, right.
• 16:11
  You will know about the Hartmal conversations and calling Shias.
• 16:14
  Yeah. I mean, going back to the point
• 16:16
  you're saying when people put on that black show Artemis, when
• 16:21
  they decide to engage in the Julius or in the any types of
• 16:28
  Azadahi, they've made that choice themselves.
• 16:33
  OK, so that's that's their choice.
• 16:34
  That's their right to practice their religion.
• 16:37
  But to have their life taken away to be attacked for it,
• 16:41
  that's not in their control. So when people say that you
• 16:44
  could stop this, you don't have to be visibly because that's the
• 16:48
  new thing in Pakistan right now. Interesting that perhaps perhaps
• 16:50
  if you're not so visibly Shia, maybe it'll be a bit easier.
• 16:54
  These are the rationale and the excuses that are being made.
• 16:58
  Zen comes from a very academic perspective and I think Zen's
• 17:02
  work is really important, which is when we was talking about the
• 17:05
  interest saying that there's not many people out there actually
• 17:09
  studying this as a subject that will actually devote their time
• 17:13
  to. So this this is a great thing
• 17:15
  from Zan to do. But the reality is not a bunch
• 17:20
  of academics like Zan need to mobilize.
• 17:23
  The people that need to mobilize in order to prevent this is the
• 17:26
  average Shia person, OK, even with, I mean, the whole
• 17:30
  spectrum, whether you're very religious or whether you just,
• 17:34
  you're Shia just by name, OK, You are even the person who's
• 17:38
  sheer by name is affected by this because just calling
• 17:40
  yourself Shia is enough to get you persecuted in places like
• 17:45
  so. We're not doing enough.
• 17:46
  That's what you're saying. It's.
• 17:47
  Absolutely. But here's the thing, we will
• 17:50
  mobilize for various other atrocities and oppressions.
• 17:55
  Look, I've seen people March for Save the Tiger Man, that, you
• 17:59
  know, when we want to, when we feel strongly about enough about
• 18:02
  something, we do it. But the problem is there is so
• 18:06
  much ambiguity around the subject, which is why his work
• 18:09
  is really. That's very true.
• 18:10
  It's so much like even numbers, like he's saying numbers right
• 18:13
  now and I'm sitting here thinking, actually my research
• 18:15
  has told me something different. Since 1947, in my research,
• 18:22
  recorded half a million shares have been massacred.
• 18:25
  That's just recorded. And let's not talk about the
• 18:28
  mass underreporting that happens.
• 18:31
  The mass underreporting happens. It's really funny.
• 18:34
  Social media, if you open social media right now, OK, especially
• 18:38
  if you're Pakistani, you'll know this.
• 18:40
  You'll know this as well. Who's trending right now?
• 18:42
  The demotion. Why is he trending?
• 18:45
  He just won gold in the Olympics.
• 18:47
  Yeah, I didn't know that. He won, yeah, won gold in the
• 18:49
  Olympics. OK, so I'll tell you this is
• 18:52
  this is how I've seen the journey of that that that
• 18:54
  specific, that specific post and even within my own house.
• 18:59
  Is he sheer? I don't know.
• 19:02
  And the reason why I don't know is because I remember a time
• 19:07
  when the Shia Sunni thing wasn't the Yali, but that wasn't
• 19:12
  reserved for just Shias in Pakistan it wasn't.
• 19:15
  Oh yeah? Well, not ahead.
• 19:16
  But not just say. The army, the Pakistani army for
• 19:19
  the longest of times when they marched, what did they say?
• 19:23
  Yali with that all their all their chance, all their training
• 19:28
  exercises have some sort of correlation to Imam Ali ESL.
• 19:33
  OK, so this idea of Imam Ali wasn't just the Shias in
• 19:37
  Pakistan. It wasn't just for him, for
• 19:39
  them. Now, so we're thinking about
• 19:42
  this. Turns out he is Shia.
• 19:44
  To be fair, you look at the the scenes from his hometown,
• 19:49
  they're all nada heavy, nada heavy, nada heavy, Mashallah and
• 19:52
  and, and power to them for doing it.
• 19:55
  But he's been labeled as the son of Pakistan.
• 19:59
  This is what I find so amazing, the son of Pakistan.
• 20:04
  Look at how can the son of Pakistan be a Shia, though.
• 20:08
  How is that possible? How is it possible that the son
• 20:10
  of Pakistan can be Shia? It's great when he wins a gold
• 20:14
  medal. Yeah.
• 20:16
  The state, the clerical, the clerical class in Pakistan.
• 20:21
  OK. And most importantly, the silent
• 20:24
  majority will watch idly as Shias are persecuted.
• 20:29
  They will justify that. They will make excuses.
• 20:33
  No, this is making make. Sense this is something very
• 20:35
  similar in Iraq by the way. So I don't want to lose the
• 20:38
  focus from Pakistan. But you mentioned for example,
• 20:40
  you you grew up in a world where there wasn't any of these
• 20:43
  issues. And if we go back to Iraq
• 20:44
  earlier on, before I would say the invasion, even during
• 20:47
  Saddam's time, there were never any issues between Iraqis
• 20:50
  themselves, between like Sunnis and Shia.
• 20:51
  They would even have prominent, for example, Sunni poets writing
• 20:53
  poetry and praise of the albeit and the of Imam Ali, Ali,
• 20:57
  Salaam. You'll see intermarriages
• 20:58
  between Sunnis and Shias as well.
• 21:01
  And then those are sectarian rites that happened very, very
• 21:04
  recently. Of the post.
• 21:06
  Can I can just add just quickly, because what happened?
• 21:10
  Because in 2017, Human Rights Watch said that 95% of all
• 21:14
  sectarian violence worldwide is targeted towards Shias.
• 21:17
  Yeah. So where is the change?
• 21:19
  Because from mine standing, at least with Pakistan, there's a
• 21:22
  very clear investment from, from Saudi institutions for the setup
• 21:27
  of madrassas and schools across Pakistan, 10s of thousands of
• 21:32
  schools across Pakistan. And you see the transformation
• 21:35
  of of ideology from that investment 30-40 years ago where
• 21:39
  it began until now. And obviously the rise of
• 21:42
  Lashkar and Jangvi and all of all of these groups, what how
• 21:46
  does it get from a place which is pluralistic in it's nature to
• 21:49
  now a place where there's sectarian violence every around
• 21:51
  every corner? Yeah, I guess so for for me,
• 21:54
  it's it's just come back on a few of these points as well.
• 21:57
  Like where, where does this idea?
• 22:00
  Because in Pakistan the the famous thing was it wasn't
• 22:02
  tolerance, it was acceptance. I'm going to speak about my own
• 22:05
  family here. When my grandmother organized
• 22:07
  the first Julus and Majalis in our village, she had people
• 22:16
  coming up to her first. Firstly, when my grandfather
• 22:18
  come basically instituted the first Medulis, it was just him,
• 22:24
  right? And a few of the Sadat families
• 22:26
  because that's how Shiism was spread.
• 22:28
  It was spread through people having conversations and there
• 22:30
  was even concepts of heated facilitated debates known as
• 22:34
  Manazaraz, where you had full like very famous accounts of
• 22:37
  full Punjabi villages converting at mass but not converting but
• 22:42
  changing their mothub right to the moth hub of that little
• 22:44
  bait. And even when the first like
• 22:47
  Majalis, like we hear these stories that the Alison who went
• 22:50
  were very like you didn't know what this was.
• 22:53
  All of a sudden the next years they would come and contribute
• 22:56
  and they would be part of the jealousies and the same
• 22:58
  jealousies which are attacked upon.
• 23:00
  The participants are Sunnis and Shias, right?
• 23:02
  The Shias are majority, but we have a lot of Sunni participants
• 23:06
  across different villages as well.
• 23:07
  There are very interesting works which are there when we look at
• 23:10
  things like Shire of Imam Hussein, such as the Tazia
• 23:15
  Juniority is the most famous part.
• 23:16
  This Tazia is a structure which symbolizes Imam Hussein's
• 23:20
  family. And they're, they're done in
• 23:22
  very beautiful, ornate ways. And I think 70% of those Tazias,
• 23:26
  I think there's about 12 or 13, don't quote me on it, but they
• 23:29
  come from Sunni Craftsman. The licenses are held by Sunni
• 23:33
  family. So there is this, this idea.
• 23:35
  Again, I just want to really emphasize that Pakistan has a
• 23:38
  long history or the subcontinent has a long history of this
• 23:43
  pluralistic way of community facilitation.
• 23:46
  It didn't mean that everyone was like saying, OK, yeah, you know,
• 23:49
  your Aqua is there and we're going to have like a wishy
• 23:52
  washy. No, there was a guided
• 23:53
  definitions. There was things that people had
• 23:55
  defined as this is how Akida isn't laid out, but there was
• 23:58
  acceptance. There was cohesion.
• 24:00
  There was cohesion, yeah. These words of sectarianism as
• 24:03
  well, Yeah. The irony of it is that
• 24:04
  sectarianism is not a word which we find in in sort of like
• 24:07
  Middle Eastern languages or semantics even in like the South
• 24:11
  Asian the languages. Why?
• 24:13
  Because sectarianism's origin come from state of the church
• 24:17
  and state. When you had a church physically
• 24:20
  enshrined into the state, such as the UK back in the day when
• 24:24
  it goes from Catholicism to Protestant, a Catholic is now
• 24:28
  has sectarian strife. There is no definition even in
• 24:31
  the constitution of Baksana. It was over iterized right?
• 24:35
  Like as to what is the definition of a Muslim.
• 24:38
  But ultimately even till today Shias are accepted as Muslims
• 24:42
  and there have been critical junctures for that.
• 24:44
  But more importantly, where do we get to it from?
• 24:46
  Now we can completely outsource this to foreign intervention
• 24:50
  100%. But it's also worthwhile to
• 24:53
  mention that Saudi is propped up by the US.
• 24:56
  OK, so during the Cold War, we're seeing the US coming in to
• 25:01
  Pakistan with Zia al Haq and saying, OK, well, we need we
• 25:04
  need to sort this thing out because you guys are going to
• 25:06
  create that barrier for us. Here are the the jihadis, the
• 25:10
  networks were set up and this became basically a bulwark
• 25:13
  against that, that the, the, the, the oncoming of, of the
• 25:19
  Soviets. So you radicalize, you equip
• 25:21
  these guys with weapons now that they've gone and fought.
• 25:24
  But also the question here, a lot of Pakistanis love to say
• 25:28
  that was important ideology. You had these guys bred in your
• 25:32
  own country. The ideology was something
• 25:34
  because martyrdom is also used as another guys on the other
• 25:37
  side, you know, to kill yourself in in in this cause of God to
• 25:41
  fight for this homeland. So now you have that the war is
• 25:46
  fought, money is brought in to the point where there are some
• 25:51
  documents which also says the AL Haq ripped the the
• 25:54
  correspondence of him receiving funding from the US, but it's
• 25:57
  documented fact. And the other hook in himself is
• 26:00
  a whole podcast. But then you see that same
• 26:03
  amount. Now what's happening 79 you have
• 26:05
  revolution. Obviously the Islamic Republic
• 26:07
  in Iran has their revolution. Now the the tables turn.
• 26:11
  So now we've got to fortify the border against Iran because we
• 26:14
  don't want that to come in to the point where even televising
• 26:17
  of any sort of Shia content during that period there was a
• 26:20
  huge fear from the US that there will be a mobilization.
• 26:24
  Now, interestingly, I just want to add the final point on this
• 26:26
  nuance of where do we get to this sectarian so-called point?
• 26:31
  Shahid Arif Hosseini, who came in and was branded as like an
• 26:35
  agent of Iran that was setting up.
• 26:37
  He's seeing she has been killed on a, on a, on a mass.
• 26:40
  We see the the likes of Ashkari, Janvi, Tarika, Taliban and
• 26:45
  Pakistan. Later on we see these sort of
• 26:47
  factions, but let's just call them militant outfits killing
• 26:50
  Shias left, right and centre. We make a significant
• 26:52
  population. The more you kill us, the more
• 26:55
  we spawn. That's why we're called
• 26:57
  cockroaches as well, because when you hit us, we turn around
• 27:00
  and we beat our chests. This is the things that they
• 27:03
  would say, right? And they say that's the
• 27:04
  rhetoric. Is.
• 27:05
  What the rhetoric is that? Or you turn over your slip and
• 27:08
  you'll find these cockroaches everywhere because they've
• 27:11
  infiltrated everything. But that's the biggest thing,
• 27:13
  right? So now you've got this coming
• 27:15
  in. And the nuance here is Sheidar
• 27:17
  Hosseini said something which is really interesting.
• 27:20
  He was in an interview with the diplomat.
• 27:22
  She's Malia Lordy was a diplomat to the UK from Pakistani
• 27:25
  government and she has this document documented.
• 27:28
  She said to him, are you trying to bring over like the Iranian
• 27:30
  revolution here? And he answered something which
• 27:31
  is very interesting, which she said, we're not trying to export
• 27:35
  the Iranian revolution of it. We know we're not a majority,
• 27:38
  but what we are trying to do is reconcile the fact that the
• 27:41
  state has failed us. No Shia, regardless of which
• 27:45
  where he sits on, on the periphery of who he follows,
• 27:48
  etcetera, should be killed for being a Shia.
• 27:50
  So that's the time when we see Shia mobilization because a lot
• 27:53
  of the times, I don't know if you've received this message,
• 27:54
  but I get it a lot. Oh bro, why aren't the Shias
• 27:57
  like mobilizing on the ground? Why are they just holding
• 27:59
  placards? No, no, no, no, I don't get a
• 28:01
  mess. No, I I get that a lot because
• 28:03
  it's like you need to understand that we have a history as well
• 28:06
  of defending and that defending sometimes is mistranslated as a
• 28:10
  proxy war. And that proxy war is not Saudi
• 28:14
  versus Iran. That is right now an ideological
• 28:16
  battle. And more importantly, and this
• 28:19
  is comes back to the point of where is our empathy.
• 28:23
  A lot of the times when a Shia dies and I used to post and I
• 28:26
  got death threats. There was times when I was
• 28:29
  receiving messages, we know where you live, etc.
• 28:32
  And you just think OK, what the hell.
• 28:34
  But more importantly, they would say stuff like conversation
• 28:37
  first would start off like why are you mentioning that they are
• 28:39
  Shia Hazara is being killed? Or why are you mentioning the
• 28:42
  Shia Punjabis were killed? Just mention Pakistanis were
• 28:45
  killed and I'm like OK, so you want me to say Pakistanis are
• 28:49
  being killed by Pakistanis for the fact that they are
• 28:51
  Pakistanis? Doesn't make sense.
• 28:53
  Yeah. But that's what we want to do.
• 28:54
  Nationalism does that to us. It reduces the people that are
• 28:58
  being oppressed and say, you know, blanket yourself, be a
• 29:00
  Muslim, be proud to be Muslim. We are proud.
• 29:03
  If we weren't proud, then the Shia community wouldn't be
• 29:05
  growing at the growth. It would, it wouldn't be still
• 29:07
  taking out its Julucis and they're processions where people
• 29:10
  used to pelt them with stones or they've had blasts.
• 29:13
  Every time there is a blast the next year or the next week,
• 29:16
  there will always be two X that number minimum.
• 29:20
  People coming out in their coffins and saying you're going
• 29:22
  to kill us for loving Imam Hussein.
• 29:24
  Like you think that's a threat to us.
• 29:26
  And I've seen that with my own eyes.
• 29:28
  It's not like documents right? Like when I was there two years,
• 29:30
  there was a very heightened time when we didn't know what was
• 29:32
  going to happen in Punjab. So yeah, this is this is just
• 29:36
  like a standard way of trying to reduce it to an external
• 29:40
  conflict. Yes, it is interconnected.
• 29:43
  But at the same time, that ideology, interestingly enough,
• 29:47
  the name Yazeed was being used in the past 10-15 years and it's
• 29:53
  been documented in census that it was being given as a name to
• 29:56
  kids. This was never there.
• 29:58
  The all of a sudden a defence of more.
• 30:01
  Rehabilitation I was talking about, but I told you that
• 30:04
  certain characters, historical characters, have received the
• 30:08
  rehabilitation within Pakistan from the pulpit.
• 30:12
  This is exactly what we're talking about.
• 30:15
  Go back in history, it was unthinkable that any Sunni
• 30:20
  family would consider calling their child Yazid.
• 30:24
  He wasn't a revered character. He was someone they, they, they
• 30:28
  themselves, the food, they're scholars, the food.
• 30:31
  But now all of a sudden you have this revisionist history where
• 30:34
  all of a sudden you're going to rehabilitate these characters
• 30:36
  with you. You're going to make excuses for
• 30:38
  them. But to add on to something that
• 30:42
  Zen said when he when he talks about the how people, people not
• 30:48
  too much scholars, how people react in Pakistan when there's
• 30:51
  like a Julius or something. We've seen what's happening in
• 30:56
  the UK and we've seen like videos of kids saying things
• 31:00
  like Paki's out and stuff like that casually.
• 31:04
  That kid didn't learn that. The kid just make that
• 31:06
  themselves up. They learnt it someone they
• 31:09
  heard it from someone or they were taught it by someone.
• 31:12
  So when you have a child sit on a roof in Pakistan, who sees the
• 31:15
  Julius going by and he throws stones and says Shia Papa, kafa
• 31:20
  kafa Shia Papa, that's learnt behaviour, OK.
• 31:24
  That's not necessarily from the member because your own, your
• 31:27
  own home, the rules within your home, own home are set by the
• 31:31
  parents, by the elders of the family, right?
• 31:33
  If they make it OK for this behaviour, then that's what you
• 31:38
  get. You get a sleeping majority or
• 31:40
  you get a majority in a country who do not have empathy for
• 31:45
  their countrymen. And that's why it's important
• 31:48
  for Shias to mobilize. Now he talks about defensive.
• 31:52
  I want to quickly the Iran Iraq war actually had a massive
• 31:56
  effect. I don't know if you've seen this
• 31:57
  in your research then, but the Iran Iraq war had a massive
• 32:00
  effect on sectarianism within Pakistan because the Shia, I
• 32:06
  think, I think it's part of our, I think it's indoctrinated
• 32:09
  within us that that oppression. And I don't want to say that we,
• 32:14
  we fight against oppression the most, but I think because of our
• 32:17
  history, because of our theology, when we see
• 32:20
  oppression, our feeling towards it is probably a lot more severe
• 32:25
  than other communities. You know, actually, I'm going to
• 32:27
  go out and say that because I do believe that if I'm honest, I'm
• 32:30
  going to, I'm going to go out and say I do believe that
• 32:32
  because of our theology, because of our doctrine, when we see
• 32:35
  oppression, we are far more verbal about it.
• 32:37
  We are far more proactive about it.
• 32:40
  There you go. Karbala, Karbala.
• 32:42
  That's that's exactly what it is.
• 32:44
  Our school is Karbala. Right.
• 32:46
  Yeah. So when we, when we see this
• 32:48
  oppression where we are, we're we're more proactive about it.
• 32:52
  But other schools necessarily won't feel that way.
• 32:55
  And that's fine. So when we see the Iran, Iraq
• 32:57
  war happening and there's that this element because you're
• 33:03
  Iraqi, for example, right? Is that right?
• 33:05
  So you're lucky you've got Imam Hussain in your country.
• 33:08
  But to me, I wouldn't see Iraq as your country.
• 33:12
  I see as my country. So you've got Imam Hussain
• 33:14
  there. So if I had to go up and get up
• 33:17
  and defend Imam Hussain's shrine, I wouldn't feel two ways
• 33:21
  about it because Imam Hussein is for Shias and for everyone.
• 33:25
  But Shias claim it, let's be honest, right?
• 33:27
  But it's for everyone. But, you know, our connection
• 33:29
  with Imam Hussein is undeniable. So when all these stuff, this
• 33:33
  stuff is happening in Iraq, the sentiment in Pakistan amongst
• 33:37
  the Shia is growing. There's worry.
• 33:40
  There's there's desire to, to, to want to be able to
• 33:43
  contribute, to help. OK, even though you've got
• 33:47
  mushed. And there she is there and
• 33:49
  there's, you know, we've got, we've got holy, we've got Imam
• 33:52
  Reza in, in, in Iran as well. So then all of a sudden you've
• 33:56
  got Shias in Pakistan think, how can we help?
• 33:59
  How can we say that? Just that I the idea of sympathy
• 34:04
  towards Iran and Iraq was enough for Zeola.
• 34:09
  So can I ask, can I ask if you don't mind?
• 34:11
  Yeah, sorry to cut you off, but you know, you mentioned that
• 34:13
  interesting point about the shrines of the Ahmed Beta and
• 34:17
  Muslim being for everyone, specifically Iraq and whatnot.
• 34:21
  I find myself that obviously I talk about my own identity
• 34:24
  crisis a lot, but being a Pakistani koja in the UK as a
• 34:28
  rarity, as a minority kind of within the koja community.
• 34:31
  It's interesting when I understand my homeland, whether
• 34:35
  it's Pakistan or India or East Africa or Iraq, because I have
• 34:39
  Iraqi heritage in my family as well.
• 34:41
  It's very confusing. But one thing I've I've tried to
• 34:44
  kind of neutralize and regulate within myself is that it's OK to
• 34:49
  feel like that because at the end of the day, I'm Shia and
• 34:52
  that's my primary identity. And wherever there's oppression,
• 34:56
  I have to try and say something and speak up.
• 34:58
  But it is also frustrating. And I don't know, say what you
• 35:00
  think about this, but I feel like there is an element of bias
• 35:05
  really. So what that, that when we see
• 35:08
  kind of oppression towards or persecution and and even
• 35:11
  genocide towards Shias who are Hazar in Afghanistan or in
• 35:17
  Pakistan or just in, in, in the north of Pakistan or anything
• 35:20
  like that, there tends to be more of a favouritism or I don't
• 35:24
  say favouritism, but there's more voice from the from the
• 35:28
  wider Shia community when there's an attack on a Shia
• 35:31
  Julius in, in Iraq, for example, or in what was it Bahrain that
• 35:36
  happened a few weeks ago. Oman.
• 35:38
  Yeah. In Oman, yeah.
• 35:39
  Yeah, in Oman. So I mean, these kind of things
• 35:41
  mobilize the community a lot more here.
• 35:43
  Do you feel like that's the case as well, as opposed to when
• 35:46
  there's attacks in Pakistan or Afghanistan?
• 35:48
  What you've said is very true, by the way, and I don't think
• 35:52
  it's because I think, let's say Arabs in general are speaking,
• 35:55
  the other Arabs choose this is that there is no awareness for
• 35:58
  other genocides that's happening within our community.
• 36:01
  So if we talk about, for example, our centers, our
• 36:04
  community, our leaders, they will only focus on what's
• 36:07
  happening within our borders. Anything happening in like South
• 36:09
  Asia or in other parts of the world, no one really speaks
• 36:12
  about it. Yeah.
• 36:13
  And and if you look around the world, the ones that who do, the
• 36:15
  ones that do are Arabs living in non Arab countries.
• 36:19
  So for example, you find them in North America, find them in
• 36:22
  Canada, you find them in the UK and Europe.
• 36:24
  They're the ones who are raising awareness of what's happening.
• 36:26
  For example, what we see in Parachinar recently in these
• 36:28
  attacks. But we're always aware of it.
• 36:30
  But we don't know why it stems. We don't know where it comes
• 36:33
  from. We don't know who's killing who.
• 36:35
  All we know is that now somebody's killing Shia.
• 36:37
  Yeah, yeah, that's all we know. Yeah.
• 36:38
  Nothing else. We don't know the history behind
• 36:40
  it. We don't know who's funding all
• 36:42
  of this sectarianism. We don't know nothing.
• 36:45
  I'll be honest. So yeah, but I don't know whose.
• 36:46
  Fault it is, and who do we blame?
• 36:48
  I think I'm good to understand from Zen because he's done the
• 36:50
  research on it. Yeah.
• 36:52
  In terms of from the the indoctrination that happens
• 36:56
  within Pakistan, where does that actually come from?
• 37:00
  I must caveat that my research is ongoing at the University of
• 37:02
  Cambridge, so you. Have to be geopolitically aware
• 37:05
  to these things. I don't think you need to be
• 37:08
  geopolitically aware, but there needs to be a more of a, we need
• 37:11
  to raise, if we're talking that our school of thought has this
• 37:16
  awareness for global awareness, right?
• 37:19
  We're not talking about political affiliation and
• 37:22
  allegiances here, but we're talking about let's raise the
• 37:25
  mentality and the intellects of our youth that are engaging in
• 37:28
  this discord and conversations, right?
• 37:31
  And so it should be like that because we again, we, we're
• 37:34
  seeing across the world, all of these issues rise their ugly
• 37:37
  head again. When you look at I, I remember
• 37:39
  something when I went to Iraq, for example, the impact does
• 37:42
  happen across the border as an English Malkmes, Qatar.
• 37:46
  And the first time I went, I think it was 2013, right?
• 37:50
  And 20. And I've been going every single
• 37:51
  year and I've noticed how the sentiment has changed.
• 37:54
  But that was the year like, you know, post looking at post Daish
• 37:57
  and I was stopped multiple times asked if I was Daish like as in
• 38:01
  going to the shrine, it would be like, because they'll see these
• 38:04
  are the sort of clothes that those guys wore.
• 38:06
  Then over years, because they've started to see more familiarity,
• 38:09
  right? Why I use that example this
• 38:11
  year. Now, like, you know, in the past
• 38:13
  5-6 years, we'll say Tajirasi, welcome us.
• 38:15
  We love Pakistanis, you know, like there's, there's a lot more
• 38:19
  affection. Why does that happen?
• 38:21
  Because familiarity is lacking. There is a lack of familiarity
• 38:24
  when it comes to non South Asian populaces in realizing what's
• 38:28
  taking place. Because I'm just speaking about
• 38:30
  Pakistan. You just need to look at what's
• 38:32
  happening in Kashmir in terms of the closure.
• 38:34
  So on the other side you have a Hindutva government which is
• 38:37
  also oppressing Shias there as one Muslims at large.
• 38:40
  Then there is also Muslim, internal sectarian this sort of,
• 38:44
  but let's call it what it is, anti Shia violence exists.
• 38:48
  But why is it the familiarity is really important is because even
• 38:50
  if you look at the establishment of modern day Karbala and Najaf,
• 38:55
  right, you'll find that there's a huge contribution which comes
• 38:58
  from South Asia. Shia, Shia civilization isn't
• 39:01
  just something which is limited to to the places of the shrine,
• 39:05
  but they have an interconnectedness.
• 39:06
  You go into the museums of Abu Fattah, Abbas, Imam Hussein, see
• 39:10
  the contributions there, the gifts which are presented from
• 39:13
  the Princeton's and kingdoms of which were living in the
• 39:16
  subcontinent, the Nawabs of the Nawabs of the Nawabs during the
• 39:20
  period of colonization. And you have this from both Shia
• 39:24
  kingdoms or Princetons as well. When they were being colonized,
• 39:27
  a lot of their gold they sent us collateral to the shrines or the
• 39:31
  shrine cities. And the constructions were
• 39:33
  actually funded through the subcontinental Shias, the
• 39:36
  plantations of date palm trees and the forests irrigation
• 39:40
  systems. So we're not we shouldn't be an
• 39:43
  afterthought. That's what I'm trying to say
• 39:44
  this. But the issue is, is that
• 39:46
  there's not enough research which is being shared about the
• 39:49
  contributions of, of Shias of the subcontinent to, to those,
• 39:54
  those greater Shia heritage. Unfortunately, a lot of the
• 39:58
  times I say here this, this conversation pop up, which is
• 40:01
  like, oh, you know, we need to be very proud of us being
• 40:05
  Pakistani Shia. And we don't need to be like
• 40:07
  taking adopting Arab practice, Iranian practice, the beauty of
• 40:10
  Shi culture. And I'm speaking about this, by
• 40:13
  the way, from and like removing it, not from an ideological
• 40:16
  perspective or religious perspective.
• 40:18
  The beauty of it is our culture evolves.
• 40:20
  It's it came in, you know, maybe came in with the sufferings.
• 40:23
  Maybe it came in through Hijaz because we have dates of Shias
• 40:27
  existing prior to even when Sunni Islam came into the
• 40:31
  subcontinent. Yeah.
• 40:32
  Or Shia, Shia commemoration as well.
• 40:35
  We have documents of it too. So the important part here is
• 40:38
  that like the rituals, not just rituals, but also Shia
• 40:41
  community, which have existed, for example, in Gilgit
• 40:44
  Baltistan, and they came in through different alleys, not
• 40:47
  just with the conquest, which is popularized.
• 40:49
  The conquest came in and we see that that's the first time Sunni
• 40:56
  Islam was mainstreamed. But why bring up all of this is
• 40:59
  familiarity? We don't do enough for familiar
• 41:03
  and I really appreciate what's taking place now in London where
• 41:06
  we're seeing Majalis which are being held across different
• 41:09
  cultures, etcetera. But there needs to be more of an
• 41:11
  effort to understand each other, not as just different
• 41:15
  communities, but as one homogeneous Shia body.
• 41:18
  And then those conversations about which state am I from
• 41:21
  don't matter, because when a Shia has been killed in
• 41:23
  Parichinar, I'll stand up. When when a Shia has been killed
• 41:27
  in Iraq, I'm going to stand up. When a Shia has been oppressed
• 41:29
  in Bahrain, I'm going to stand up, right?
• 41:32
  So when I see a Shia being killed in Afghanistan, I feel
• 41:34
  the same amount of empathy. So with time, that comes
• 41:37
  through. And you think this is what will
• 41:38
  help the the targeting of Shias and?
• 41:41
  No. So the targeting of Shias to
• 41:43
  end, we have to also accept that this is a reality.
• 41:46
  Because we say it's an ideology that's killing us, right?
• 41:49
  I mean, I, I don't think we can control the ideology.
• 41:52
  What we can control is the response to that ideology.
• 41:55
  Obviously Zen Mashallah has the optimism of youth.
• 42:00
  My approach would be a bit different.
• 42:02
  I, I, I'm not. I think the cross cultural
• 42:05
  centres and all this into community into, you know,
• 42:10
  cultural exchange is great. OK.
• 42:12
  I don't think I then I think that's further down the line at
• 42:16
  this level. And I've been completely honest
• 42:19
  because I do feel somewhat strongly about this and I'm
• 42:22
  disheartened by a lot of it as well, to be completely honest.
• 42:25
  I think on a very base level what we need is to understand a
• 42:29
  few key points and irrespective which country you come from, we
• 42:34
  are brothers in Velaya. It is obligatory on you to stand
• 42:38
  up for your other Shia brothers man, simple as that.
• 42:41
  Don't look at their community, their their, their class, their.
• 42:45
  If you disagree with some of their cultural practice, it
• 42:47
  doesn't matter. We need to have just simple
• 42:51
  mobilisation on the killing of Shia.
• 42:53
  That should be enough. You don't need any more
• 42:56
  information in that. She has been killed.
• 42:58
  It's time to mobilise and the problem, excuse me, the problem
• 43:04
  that I see is whilst the academic, I mean, to be fair, I
• 43:08
  have actually heard one of privacy.
• 43:10
  One person has actually spoken about this say the Maher has
• 43:13
  actually spoken about the cinema.
• 43:14
  I remember quite clearly because and I remember it because I was
• 43:17
  surprised. I was surprised, you know,
• 43:19
  because he's he's not from the subcontinent.
• 43:21
  He's from Iraq, as we, as you well know.
• 43:25
  And he spoke about how for a long period of time, the hub for
• 43:30
  Shia power was in the subcontinent.
• 43:33
  Yeah, the spread of Shiism was happening from the subcontinent.
• 43:37
  Yeah, things like Sandan age they had these aren't just like
• 43:40
  afterthoughts, right. Like we had whole families where
• 43:44
  like people had reached the level of which they had that
• 43:47
  Lucknow was the madrasas of Lucknow.
• 43:49
  The the Houser in Lucknow was not only just teaching standard
• 43:53
  jurisprudence. I mean, as many other houses at
• 43:56
  the time were the. Literature.
• 43:57
  The literature came out or not. There was physics discussions
• 44:00
  around mathematics, so they were pioneering, right?
• 44:03
  She is. And as well, Lucknow is known as
• 44:04
  the. I mean, now because of
• 44:06
  partition, it's passed on. I think I, I, I know what you're
• 44:10
  saying. Like we, it takes a lot of time
• 44:12
  for us to arrive at that, that point.
• 44:14
  But what I'm saying is that we have to 1st find basis of
• 44:16
  familiarity and to ensure that this narrative is not just
• 44:20
  hijacked into one thing because we've got to look at advocacy.
• 44:23
  And when you're talking about we, we had this discussion about
• 44:25
  where's this ideology permeating from there is obviously, and I
• 44:29
  want to come back to that point you mentioned about reimagining,
• 44:33
  because imagination is the key part of how states are formed,
• 44:37
  reimagining personalities who are always very we don't want to
• 44:41
  really touch upon those points right beyond the now you're
• 44:44
  praying then. No, beyond the qualifier.
• 44:45
  Rashidin right, like as in as, as they were like the ones which
• 44:49
  a lot of there was a lot of strategic ways, but at the
• 44:52
  Sunnah were aware of the Shia belief system and the rejection
• 44:56
  right of, of that belief system. And but there was an acceptance
• 45:00
  that that doesn't define you as a Muslim to accept the Khalafa
• 45:03
  doesn't make you a Muslim to accept the finality of the
• 45:05
  prophet. That's the condition of, of, of
• 45:07
  Islam. This is a really important part
• 45:10
  because when we talk about ideology, how does legislation
• 45:13
  or the state sort of how is it being appropriated?
• 45:17
  So in Pakistan, we have something called the blasphemy
• 45:18
  law. And the blasphemy law is a
• 45:21
  really interesting part because this is actually brought in by
• 45:23
  the colonizers. There's a whole history as to
• 45:25
  why they bring it in the British, why they introduce it,
• 45:28
  but it's sort of reimagined constantly.
• 45:30
  It's reintroduced and so blasphemy is is really
• 45:34
  interesting because when you look at the cases of blasphemy,
• 45:39
  they're not substantial cases which are put against even
• 45:42
  minorities Christians. For example, you know, there's a
• 45:45
  famous case of somebody sharing a glass of water and then they
• 45:49
  said, oh, he drank from my cup and it was actually a land
• 45:52
  dispute. But what they will do is because
• 45:54
  he is Christian and he don't thought he knew a solid because
• 45:57
  blasphemy now has become about defamation or to cause offence
• 46:03
  to the character of Rasulullah Salallahu Ali who.
• 46:05
  Basically use it to take out personal vendetta basically.
• 46:08
  And that's how it is. You got some someone's upset,
• 46:10
  you accuse them of blasphemy and.
• 46:14
  And is this happening to the Shia?
• 46:15
  So now, now what we're seeing is in the past few years, five, 6-7
• 46:21
  years, we're seeing a concerted effort to extend the definition.
• 46:25
  So what happens with Tohina resalid?
• 46:26
  Tohina resalid is introduced because the MD question is
• 46:30
  raised in Pakistan, not just that they should be considered a
• 46:34
  separate sex in Islam, they should be deemed as non-muslim
• 46:38
  and that they should agree that they have done kufar right.
• 46:41
  So this is again, a whole theological jurisprudential
• 46:45
  discussion takes place. And a lot of the, you know, M&D
• 46:49
  community will come forward and say, well, Shia sided with that
• 46:52
  part when they said, you know, this isn't a discussion to be
• 46:55
  had. And the Shia, Alamar said,
• 46:58
  actually we don't consider them Muslim.
• 46:59
  But theologically the Shias have always been very strong.
• 47:02
  So from their perspective, they were asked in a minority, what
• 47:06
  do you guys think? Do you believe that they would
• 47:08
  be considered? And they said the
• 47:10
  conditionality. When I've spoken to Alamar in
• 47:12
  the research, they said the conditionality was we have a
• 47:17
  paramount belief that the finality of the Prophet is the
• 47:19
  definition of a Muslim. Now, why this is important is
• 47:22
  because some people, especially like a lot of activists, she has
• 47:25
  made this critical mistake. OK, if the Shia said no and you
• 47:28
  have a majority, and they said actually it's whoever defines
• 47:32
  themselves #1 theologically, it's not sound for them and it
• 47:35
  doesn't align with the archive. Second thing is you get
• 47:38
  blanketed with the same label of kufa when you're trying to
• 47:41
  survive as a community, you're also siding with something which
• 47:44
  the state deems as kufa. Yeah.
• 47:46
  So you're, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you
• 47:48
  don't. But now what's happened is
• 47:50
  Doheni Rasalat was a constant thing.
• 47:53
  So you're living in a Muslim majority country.
• 47:54
  You have Sharia, Sharia law, you have injection of Islam, but
• 47:59
  still you're holding rallies in defence of the prophets, Allah,
• 48:01
  Ali who are. So now you understand that the M
• 48:04
  of the question is now being resolved.
• 48:05
  But constantly they're being persecuted by the same militant
• 48:09
  mob factions. We need to extend that
• 48:11
  definition further. We need to get more power
• 48:13
  crystallized towards us and that's when this movement of
• 48:16
  Dohina Sahaba starts, which is offence of the Sahaba.
• 48:20
  Linking the Asahaba of Rasulullah intrinsically to
• 48:23
  Rasala is completely flawed. Yeah, completely flawed.
• 48:26
  So that's why the question of mark.
• 48:28
  No, but that's why the question mark the green light.
• 48:31
  But that's why the question of what are we here comes into
• 48:33
  place. That's why Malawi all of a
• 48:35
  sudden you have. And I'm just saying this as an
• 48:37
  observation. Malawi was disputed amongst
• 48:40
  Sunni schools, especially amongst the Borivia school of
• 48:42
  thought. There are many scholars in in
• 48:45
  from the subcontinent who actually deemed him to even not
• 48:48
  be considered worthy of even any ounce of respect.
• 48:53
  Right. So now how all of a sudden you
• 48:56
  have mass publications where they take a casita.
• 48:59
  I'm sure casita reciters and you've got Amir from Amir, Amir,
• 49:04
  Amir Amir. Now let's let's let's leave that
• 49:07
  aside. But this was never in your
• 49:09
  previous bodies of work. So now it's reimagining.
• 49:12
  So why, why you want to do that? Because she has have a
• 49:14
  contention, direct contention on what are we?
• 49:16
  Are you introduce a law or you push for a law at the end, what
• 49:19
  happens your books get outlawed because they don't say razia
• 49:22
  tada unhorn them when you're that's not respect of that as
• 49:25
  hub. I have friends who are
• 49:26
  struggling to find English versions of Najal balaga in in
• 49:30
  secular book shops in Pakistan. One friend was telling me that
• 49:33
  he had to go behind the counter and the guy showed him he was
• 49:36
  scared to show him the naj. That's crazy.
• 49:37
  So, you know, Shia, when we're talking about this right now,
• 49:40
  we're in a very critical time. And it's really important that
• 49:43
  we have these conversations with nuance and we understand where
• 49:45
  they're coming from because it is to do with ideology.
• 49:48
  But ultimately, when the state fails, sectarianism is great
• 49:52
  because it gives you a distraction.
• 49:54
  You get Shias getting killed. It's fine that this is Yahudi
• 49:58
  Sazish, you know, or a foreign, a foreign thing, or a
• 50:01
  conspiracy. Claim the Yahood for everything.
• 50:04
  But I mean, I'm just saying like when you look at it, we don't
• 50:09
  want to take any accountability ourselves, so.
• 50:12
  Because of our laws. It won't be because of the
• 50:14
  indoctrination that we gave our kids.
• 50:15
  It wasn't because we were intolerant.
• 50:17
  It wasn't because we lacked empathy.
• 50:19
  It was because of the youth, literally.
• 50:22
  And this is this. This is part of the problem.
• 50:25
  We're saying it as a joke, but this is, this is a literal
• 50:29
  reality in Pakistan. For some of these people, this
• 50:32
  is how they get indoctrinated. Now.
• 50:34
  The kafi, kafi, Shia kafi is so rampant in Pakistan to the point
• 50:40
  where, like, you could have a disagreement with a Shia guy and
• 50:46
  you know, you've got that in your back pocket.
• 50:48
  He might be your friend, but you've had some sort of
• 50:51
  disagreement. You already know in that
• 50:54
  argument that you are the more powerful one in that country, in
• 50:58
  that state. You are more powerful because at
• 51:01
  any time, if you wanted to, you could pull out that sectarian
• 51:05
  card and you could make this person's life miserable.
• 51:09
  I mean, and I mean really miserable.
• 51:11
  Look, I mean, for me today's, one of the things I wanted to
• 51:16
  convey today was that and I think Zen has been fantastic.
• 51:21
  I mean, I feel like I've learnt a lot and I think, you know
• 51:25
  what, I think this deserves an entirely other podcast.
• 51:28
  I think you should maybe have your own podcast where you talk
• 51:30
  about this stuff in in much more after Asia.
• 51:34
  I make my decision, my decision making.
• 51:37
  In front of the member. Sorry, it's not just.
• 51:40
  I hope you're watching. I think they will enjoy that.
• 51:44
  Look, my decision making isn't it is based on my, my religion,
• 51:48
  right? But as a father, I make these
• 51:51
  decisions. And I know you're a father's a
• 51:52
  New York father in Charlotte. May you have many kids
• 51:54
  Charlotte. Charlotte 6-7 in Charlotte.
• 51:56
  He's three Ali's at least. Yeah, 1212's lucky number. 14 if
• 52:01
  we're going there. He's ambitious, but no.
• 52:07
  So I make these decision. This decision making process is
• 52:10
  based around my kids. So the stuff that he's talking
• 52:13
  about, we had a real sort of a platform for him where he was
• 52:16
  able to convey this stuff for the coming generation.
• 52:20
  That would be fantastic. But today we've had the killings
• 52:23
  in Barge and it's ongoing. Media's again.
• 52:25
  It's calm down. Everyone's chilling, everyone's
• 52:27
  silent about it, but their life is still miserable.
• 52:31
  And the way I thought was, how do we get people to mobilize?
• 52:35
  The way people have mobilized Palestine.
• 52:38
  Let's be honest, the way people have mobilized Palestine.
• 52:41
  Marshall amazing. My my wife and kids, myself, we
• 52:45
  go to they've gone. I've been to most of the
• 52:47
  marches. I missed a few, but they've been
• 52:49
  to every single March. Now I want to basically, and
• 52:56
  this for yourself, for the viewers.
• 52:57
  I want I I was thinking, how do I convey this?
• 53:01
  And this is this is how I've decided to do it.
• 53:03
  So bear with me. I'm assuming everyone here has
• 53:07
  lost a loved one. Yeah.
• 53:10
  Someone close to you. Someone whose whose absence in
• 53:13
  your life makes a difference. I lost my father in May 2023.
• 53:18
  And so about that You lost your father's all right.
• 53:21
  Yes. Yeah.
• 53:23
  May I have lost both of our fathers, inshallah.
• 53:26
  But I want you to take yourself back to that now, because I'm
• 53:30
  hoping you'll be able to relate. We had our our father's pass
• 53:33
  away. We're surrounded by our
• 53:35
  community, our loved ones. Right, we get to do all their
• 53:39
  religious rights with dignity and integrity, with love and
• 53:43
  support from our our community, our family, our friends, the
• 53:49
  Shias in places like Barajanan. I'm going to give you one
• 53:53
  specific case and I'm, I'm sure you must have come across this
• 53:56
  in your, in your research. It's not Barajan, it's actually
• 53:59
  in Afghanistan amongst the Hazara community.
• 54:05
  This father sent his wife and children out to the market.
• 54:13
  There was an explosion. He was informed.
• 54:17
  I'm going to go through it. When you say it doesn't take too
• 54:19
  long. He was, it was an explosion.
• 54:22
  He was informed of the explosion.
• 54:23
  He rushed there and they said, look as our community visibly
• 54:28
  shear not in a place of worship, by the way, just in the
• 54:32
  marketplace every day, something everyone takes for granted.
• 54:38
  Sorry, there's been an explosion.
• 54:39
  Your family are no longer there. Can you come help identify the
• 54:42
  bodies? He this father had to identify
• 54:46
  his loved ones by body parts. Bad, tragic, traumatic.
• 54:52
  We can't even imagine. Then he's like, you know what?
• 54:55
  This has happened now this is God's will.
• 54:58
  I want to give them a right, a burial.
• 55:00
  I want to send them off right. They gather at the mosque, at
• 55:03
  the Imam Barba. Everyone's there.
• 55:08
  He's getting consoled before the maid is taken out.
• 55:13
  Gunman walks in. So his wife survived.
• 55:18
  So I should have mentioned his wife survived.
• 55:20
  It was children that died. So him and his wife, they're
• 55:23
  there. Gunman walks in, sprays the Imam
• 55:27
  Barker. His wife is also dead now.
• 55:34
  This is the trauma of so many families in Pakistan, in in
• 55:39
  Afghanistan, even in places like Nigeria.
• 55:43
  Shias are persecuted. You have Deseri massacre, OK.
• 55:48
  You cannot move away from the undeniable truth.
• 55:51
  And the undeniable truth is they are persecuted because they are
• 55:55
  Shia. Until Shia people in Western
• 55:59
  countries like London, the US, we decide that, you know what,
• 56:02
  we have privilege, we have power.
• 56:04
  We're going to mobilize and we're going to March in the same
• 56:07
  way that we March for Palestine. We are going to March for every
• 56:10
  time there's an atrocity against Shias.
• 56:13
  We are going to increase our political capital.
• 56:16
  We're going to make sure that these, the state, the
• 56:17
  establishments know that if we want, we can mobilize and we can
• 56:21
  make their life a nightmare. We can boycott.
• 56:24
  We can do all this stuff. Until that, until we take that
• 56:27
  approach, it's not going to work, man.
• 56:29
  That's the truth. We can have as many monazras and
• 56:34
  theological discussions and, and Shia, Sunni bhai, bhai, you can
• 56:37
  have all that as what you want. And again, the Shia, Sunni bhai
• 56:40
  thing, even at the last March we had that.
• 56:42
  And the reason why I won't adopt that is because it's no good me
• 56:46
  saying Shia, Sunni bhai, bhai, until the other Sunni guys
• 56:48
  saying as well, yeah, I'll be Shia, Sunni bhai, I'm down for
• 56:52
  that. I have no problem with that.
• 56:53
  But the Sunni guys got to say as well, man.
• 56:55
  Yeah. I'm happy I do I.
• 56:58
  Do have beg friends? No, no, no, I do.
• 57:00
  I do understand where you're coming from, but you also have
• 57:02
  to understand that when we're looking at this topic, we sit in
• 57:05
  the UK as a very privileged perspective.
• 57:07
  And this is what I constantly go back to.
• 57:09
  There is no justification for why a Shia is being killed.
• 57:12
  Doesn't matter if somebody has said something which you find is
• 57:15
  absolutely awful. He's gone even out of the bounds
• 57:18
  of Sharia from from a Shia perspective and used like, you
• 57:22
  know, inflammatory language or swear words, whatever.
• 57:26
  There's no justification why a Shiite is killed.
• 57:28
  If you have an offence to be made, bring it forward to the
• 57:30
  court. And then obviously we know the
• 57:31
  judiciary is flawed. But I will say this much that we
• 57:35
  shouldn't turn this narrative into a Shia only issue because
• 57:41
  what I mean by that is with Shia persecution, Sunnis are also
• 57:46
  affected. Sufis are also affected,
• 57:50
  Christians, Hindus, even if you look at the the minority attacks
• 57:53
  which were documented, there was I think over 70% on the violence
• 57:57
  register were actually against Shias.
• 57:59
  But you have Sunni the the Sunni community which attends a lot of
• 58:05
  these places, their bars, for example, 18 their bars, their
• 58:08
  bars are like Sufi shrines, which are also targeted.
• 58:11
  Now why Sunni Shia bye bye is used as a thing is also to
• 58:15
  confront those that are saying these guys are no longer Muslim.
• 58:19
  And I agree, the Sunnis should also say that I'm.
• 58:22
  Gonna push back a little bit, I know.
• 58:23
  No. What you saying Shias?
• 58:24
  No, no, no. But in a protest, I'm gonna say
• 58:27
  in a protest which is attended mainly by Shias, the Shias are
• 58:30
  going to be saying that, right? If a Shia says it.
• 58:32
  Now, I don't personally think that I need to say that because
• 58:35
  I don't need to justify my Muslim nurse in the state.
• 58:38
  But what I'm saying is there are also many Sunnis who are also
• 58:42
  now going forward in this advocacy, our goal.
• 58:45
  What is the Palestine protest? It's not Palestinian speaking
• 58:47
  about Palestine. It's the vast majority because
• 58:49
  they've been able to communicate.
• 58:51
  We're going to take learning. So it's take them.
• 58:52
  It's not pression Olympics. We take learning from them and
• 58:55
  we say, how do we advocate for this course so that you
• 58:57
  understand it's in the best interest for every Muslim that
• 59:02
  Shias are not killed in the state.
• 59:04
  It is in the interest and that's the issue.
• 59:06
  If we are going to further crystallize ourselves into this,
• 59:10
  like we're going to sit here and we're going to go there, we need
• 59:12
  to understand if we accept, for example, a lot of the liberal
• 59:17
  Pakistani and what they called liberals, well, except like a
• 59:19
  more Sufi adoption of of Shia of Islam.
• 59:23
  So the whole conversation by the way, we can have this different
• 59:26
  definitely. In reference to the audience, in
• 59:28
  reference to the people that are most likely to to receive this
• 59:32
  information, what should they be doing?
• 59:33
  And this is what I'm trying to refer to.
• 59:35
  Let's just take London as an example.
• 59:38
  The UK is an example. Sorry.
• 59:40
  There's at least half a million shares in the UK.
• 59:44
  How many people are at the March?
• 59:45
  Bro just be honest. How many people are at the?
• 59:46
  Project No, I understand we have a grievance.
• 59:49
  That is my your. Grievance is with the community,
• 59:51
  right? Our own community.
• 59:52
  I look at it in an optimistic way.
• 59:54
  After the March and Iraqi brother turned up, British
• 59:57
  Iraqi, not Baksani rang me. A British Iraqi rang me and said
• 1:00:01
  Salaam, I want to organize a seminar in an Arab centre
• 1:00:05
  because I think more Arabs need to be aware of what's taking
• 1:00:07
  place in Shia. That's something in Baksan.
• 1:00:09
  Referenced by parish, right? So he said that to me.
• 1:00:12
  And if that one person has been convinced, I don't need to sit
• 1:00:16
  in in tall glasses and say you speak about Palestine, why not
• 1:00:19
  speak about Burjinar? I need to now convince.
• 1:00:21
  I don't need to convince you because there are people being
• 1:00:23
  killed. We stand against oppression.
• 1:00:25
  And I know you, you share that anecdote.
• 1:00:27
  I want to share one anecdote. And I think, I think we're
• 1:00:29
  hitting time if we are. But the, the anecdote here is
• 1:00:34
  when we're looking at places like even Gilgit Baltistan, This
• 1:00:36
  is this is not like a herd story.
• 1:00:38
  I I interviewed the mother of a Shahid and there are multiple
• 1:00:42
  Shahada and their families are still struggling to survive even
• 1:00:46
  after places like Bashar. So if you're asking what you can
• 1:00:49
  do, I don't believe in state change.
• 1:00:51
  Like I don't believe that will create any impact in US as much
• 1:00:54
  as the mobilisation is more about solidarity to show them
• 1:00:56
  that they're not forgotten because that's the biggest
• 1:00:58
  thing. A lot of people were critiquing
• 1:00:59
  us as to why we had the protest. The biggest thing was sisters
• 1:01:03
  and families and Parichon are saying we're so happy that
• 1:01:05
  somebody is speaking on our behalf.
• 1:01:06
  So just remember that, remember that story, remember that you
• 1:01:09
  will stand and you will have to do everything in your capacity.
• 1:01:12
  When in Gilgit Baltisan, I want to say in about 2017 and I was
• 1:01:18
  out there and we were delivering support to some of the Shia
• 1:01:22
  families affected by Sania Chelas.
• 1:01:24
  I remember this was the first thing which put Shia genocide in
• 1:01:27
  the map. I think in the Western Shia
• 1:01:29
  audience where a bus was stopped, that bus was being off
• 1:01:32
  boarded with Shias and basically, I don't know how to
• 1:01:36
  describe this, but they were identifying Shias based upon
• 1:01:39
  either Zanji Zani marks, which are self flagellation marks on
• 1:01:43
  their back or by their names and ID cards.
• 1:01:45
  So if they had a Shia sounding name putting them to one side,
• 1:01:48
  then they would start to shoot and they piled up their bodies.
• 1:01:52
  There was one person in that bus as well.
• 1:01:53
  Also there's another incident of the same sort of nature where
• 1:01:57
  the bus driver was Sunni and refused to give up identities
• 1:02:00
  and was also tortured and killed.
• 1:02:02
  But there's one person who tried to defend and his he, he, he, he
• 1:02:06
  came from a very strong, not strong Shia family.
• 1:02:08
  He was a Shia family. And we visited that family and I
• 1:02:11
  interviewed the mother. The most difficult conversation
• 1:02:13
  I have had to to date. I speak Urdu, she's speaking
• 1:02:18
  Balti. We have a translator in between.
• 1:02:20
  So we're speaking about her son who because he tried to defend,
• 1:02:24
  they kept him alive for the longest period they could.
• 1:02:27
  They tortured him by pulling off his nails, decapitating each
• 1:02:31
  part, sorry, severing each parts of his of his fingers.
• 1:02:35
  They would call his mum and family and say this is what
• 1:02:37
  we're doing to him. So by the end of it, when his
• 1:02:40
  body returned back in a black bag, she could no longer
• 1:02:44
  identify. She could no longer identify her
• 1:02:46
  son because it was in pieces, right?
• 1:02:50
  And I remember one thing and I, I this, this is what we got to
• 1:02:53
  remember. I said to her after this
• 1:02:55
  interview, she's mourning, she's crying her sons, she has other
• 1:02:58
  sons who are standing by, 4-5 sons standing next to her.
• 1:03:02
  And she, I said to her, if now you could go back in time and
• 1:03:07
  you could say that you tell your children you don't want to be
• 1:03:13
  Shia or with say, the shahada, because I think that if I'm not
• 1:03:17
  mistaken, Shahid's name was Ali Akbar or Akbar.
• 1:03:20
  So I said, would you have given him another name?
• 1:03:24
  And the mother turns around and looks at her children and she
• 1:03:27
  says these are people in Baltistan in the height of Shia
• 1:03:30
  genocide in that region. She turns around and says, if
• 1:03:33
  that thought crosses their head, then as a mother, I've failed.
• 1:03:36
  Where am I and where is where's Al Muhammad?
• 1:03:39
  Where are the sons of Zahara and where am I?
• 1:03:41
  So that if I had more, I would give them in the way.
• 1:03:44
  So when you talk about indoctrination of where that
• 1:03:47
  thought's coming from, more importantly, we have a school of
• 1:03:51
  thought. We have a legacy.
• 1:03:53
  And that's why we say our dadsagar is Karbala, because we
• 1:03:56
  see mothers in Karbala that throw back their heads and say
• 1:03:58
  what we give in the way of our Muhammad, we don't return.
• 1:04:01
  That's the stories that keeps us alive in Pakistan.
• 1:04:03
  And that's why Till doesn't matter how many Shias are killed
• 1:04:06
  to date and how many will be killed and how many blasts will
• 1:04:09
  happen in Pakistan, that legacy of Karbala is still alive.
• 1:04:15
  Yeah. And it will continue to thrive.
• 1:04:16
  And it will continue to empower the community wherever they are.
• 1:04:20
  We need to look beyond now this this politic of he follows this
• 1:04:23
  Malaja. Oh, he's an Iranian.
• 1:04:24
  He's, he's a Shirazi. We're getting killed left, right
• 1:04:27
  and center. We need to mobilize, we need to
• 1:04:29
  understand, we need to defend. And from our side here, we need
• 1:04:32
  to ensure that we're getting funds out there, we're
• 1:04:34
  supporting the Shaheed families and the Shahdaz families and
• 1:04:37
  that we keep the memory and their struggle alive in our
• 1:04:40
  Majalis and and any given opportunity we get.
• 1:04:43
  Absolutely. Thank you.
• 1:04:43
  Both on something point or not and like you said earlier.
• 1:04:47
  So that should be the only requisite.
• 1:04:49
  Many of us to be honest, but like what you said earlier then
• 1:04:51
  about this term of cockroaches, which is obviously a despicable
• 1:04:56
  word to dehumanize and describe someone as.
• 1:04:58
  But in the sense that we are, as we always see on social media,
• 1:05:02
  we are seeds. So when you plant us, we'll
• 1:05:04
  sprout and the more of us will grow.
• 1:05:07
  A relative, a cousin of mine, his name's Asad Gokul.
• 1:05:09
  He's he's. Very good activist.
• 1:05:11
  Follow him. Yeah, I said very, very
• 1:05:13
  Inshallah. We pray for his safety.
• 1:05:14
  Absolutely. You know, like he's, he's an
• 1:05:16
  absolute gem. An example, right?
• 1:05:18
  His dad was Shaheed and he's. Now at the forefront.
• 1:05:21
  In, in the mainstream media, he's he's vocal about the
• 1:05:24
  oppression and the persecution of Shias across Pakistan.
• 1:05:27
  And that just gives me an example of someone who is young.
• 1:05:30
  He's a student and his dad was Shaheed, his uncle was Shaheed
• 1:05:34
  and he he came out and he's made himself known and much Allah.
• 1:05:37
  He's doing so much good work. And this will continue like they
• 1:05:40
  will not silence us. We'll continue to do our Azhar
• 1:05:43
  our we'll shed our tears. We won't be apologetic about
• 1:05:46
  being Shia or loving alumnus. It's amazing that you.
• 1:05:48
  Said that is our. Identity ultimately we are like
• 1:05:51
  you said, we are the lovers of ABBA Abdullah Hussein, Salam
• 1:05:54
  Ali. And in these times, these days,
• 1:05:57
  we take the most pride in that. So for them to strategically
• 1:06:00
  target Shias in this period of time, it's, it's so stupid to
• 1:06:04
  imagine that this that will hurt us because you'll feel the most
• 1:06:07
  adrenaline and the most motivation at this point.
• 1:06:09
  So that listen, guys, thank you so much.
• 1:06:11
  I really, really appreciate your your input, your education for
• 1:06:14
  us, the wisdom that you've shared with us, and also the
• 1:06:16
  practical steps that we can take to really see how we can make
• 1:06:23
  more of a difference and understand the situation
• 1:06:26
  further. Because it's a responsibility on
• 1:06:27
  all Muslims like you said, and not just all Shias nor just
• 1:06:31
  Pakistani Shias as well. Yeah.
• 1:06:33
  And even at a local level, just reading, because there was a
• 1:06:36
  message which was sent today and I was listening to it on the
• 1:06:39
  drive down a family in Islamabad who run in a small Husseinia
• 1:06:43
  inside the house. It's a historic one.
• 1:06:45
  And that was closed down because of these takfiris.
• 1:06:49
  But that. That Lady is.
• 1:06:50
  Yeah, yeah. So, so is the the wife of.
• 1:06:54
  Anyway, we're going to go down a different discussion.
• 1:06:56
  But anyway, Takfiris who closed this down, sent the police
• 1:06:58
  through threatened blah, blah, blah.
• 1:07:00
  This is a Husseinia, which is a very critical Husseinia in G7 in
• 1:07:04
  Islamabad called Buddha Mambad guy.
• 1:07:05
  It's commonly known as that, but I think it's Mehfilim Mamulse
• 1:07:08
  Kazimul, one of those, or Barbara Hawaj, one of those.
• 1:07:12
  They closed it down. There was a lot of like
• 1:07:14
  interrogate, like there was a lot of issues there.
• 1:07:16
  But I was speaking because it's a close friend of mine and the
• 1:07:20
  family I know very well. So I was speaking to the auntie
• 1:07:23
  who's one of the organisers and she said one thing, which is I
• 1:07:25
  said can I share these clips? And she said keep sharing
• 1:07:30
  because this pressure, which is coming from outside is affecting
• 1:07:33
  local governance because they don't want this to get out of
• 1:07:36
  control, as in they don't want more people being aware.
• 1:07:39
  So like, when we're sharing these things, when we're going
• 1:07:41
  beyond it, like do whatever you can in your capacity because you
• 1:07:44
  don't know how much impact it's having on the ground because the
• 1:07:46
  last thing they want is negative press.
• 1:07:49
  Yeah. And boy, now because of social
• 1:07:51
  media, no one can control it, right?
• 1:07:53
  That's. What I mean when you when you,
• 1:07:55
  when our protests are full of a lot more people, when our social
• 1:07:59
  media is speaking about this in this constantly, then people
• 1:08:05
  have to pay attention, which is why it's saying within, at least
• 1:08:09
  within the UK, we have a good solid community.
• 1:08:12
  Yeah. When the next time an Inshallah,
• 1:08:14
  maybe the community will see this and think, all right, you
• 1:08:17
  know what? The next time something like
• 1:08:19
  this happens and I see a protest, yeah, I'm going.
• 1:08:22
  Absolutely. That's all it is.
• 1:08:23
  No, we can't. Brothers in Villa, it doesn't
• 1:08:25
  matter. All that stuff is irrelevant.
• 1:08:27
  Yeah, your brothers in Villa. OK, bring your non-Muslims and
• 1:08:31
  suddenly friends, everyone, bring everyone along if you can,
• 1:08:34
  but at the very least you should turn up.
• 1:08:37
  That's the that's what I'm saying.
• 1:08:38
  Yeah. I don't have the Marshall, the
• 1:08:40
  optimism of Zen. I'll be honest with you because.
• 1:08:43
  We come from a motherhood which has always been a press, but
• 1:08:45
  we're optimistic because we know Imam Al Hodja is coming right?
• 1:08:48
  So we just agree we should. Always remember that and keep
• 1:08:51
  the optimism that he's coming and he's going to establish
• 1:08:54
  justice. We know up until that time we're
• 1:08:55
  not going to get there, but that's what I think.
• 1:08:57
  I mean, if that's why we're going to inject that back, OK.
• 1:09:00
  So Marshall, but like, I think as long as we can do, I think
• 1:09:04
  that's that he's right. He's absolutely right.
• 1:09:06
  There's no doubt about it. But we definitely can do more.
• 1:09:08
  Yeah, 100%. We can definitely do more.
• 1:09:10
  That's all. I agree.
• 1:09:11
  I agree. That's that's where we'll agree.
• 1:09:12
  Our last point we definitely agree we can do.
• 1:09:15
  More, I mean, look, you, you found out you're not just
• 1:09:17
  tolerating each other, now you've what's the worth
• 1:09:19
  accepting each other. We've got good chemistry, I
• 1:09:23
  said. Thanks so much.
• 1:09:24
  One of us being a very educational conversation that
• 1:09:27
  I've learned from and you know, seeing where all these issues
• 1:09:30
  are stemming from in Pakistan, the early history to where it is
• 1:09:32
  today. This is something I'm not aware
• 1:09:34
  of and I don't think the Shia world is aware of unless you're
• 1:09:36
  from that part of the region, that part of the world.
• 1:09:38
  So I've learned so much. Thank you both for both your
• 1:09:41
  contribution. And you've come all the way down
• 1:09:42
  from Peterborough, South London. I'm sure everyone listening and
• 1:09:46
  watching has learned something new.
• 1:09:47
  And Sharla, if you are a Shia and you claim to be and we all
• 1:09:52
  claim to be Charlotte under Hezuela, I don't feel scared.
• 1:09:56
  And there were some points I wanted to mention, but I was
• 1:09:58
  like, you know what? I am not going to bring my
• 1:10:00
  points of view in a discussion. I try to make the sectarian
• 1:10:03
  because whenever the Xi'an wants to speak out or defend his
• 1:10:05
  beliefs, they're going to say what?
• 1:10:07
  You're causing the vision of the community.
• 1:10:08
  So I'll stay quiet and inshallah we'll just stick on the points
• 1:10:11
  that we learn from today. No, I think it's an important
• 1:10:13
  conversation we need to continue having.
• 1:10:15
  The points I'll have I have on a separate I.
• 1:10:17
  Think we should have that conversations here inshallah.
• 1:10:19
  And yeah, we'll go from there inshallah.
• 1:10:22
  Thank you for having us facilitating this conversation.
• 1:10:24
  It really means a lot. Phenomenal.
• 1:10:26
  And especially I'm sure that some people in Pakistan will be
• 1:10:29
  watching this conversation, so pray for them.
• 1:10:32
  And yeah, if you're listening, please recite sort of Fatia for
• 1:10:37
  all of the shahada and for all of those that are fighting the
• 1:10:41
  struggle in Pakistan. And we pray that they are
• 1:10:44
  granted victory as soon. As possible as well.
• 1:10:46
  And the more you kill us, the more we're alive yeah and the
• 1:10:49
  more you try cut the dicker off whether it's from the time of
• 1:10:51
  Nathan son, the cause of Lebec Alysol that comes around the
• 1:10:55
  world and it will never end. No.
• 1:10:57
  And you mentioned the story towards the end where you said,
• 1:10:59
  you know, the the poor son the mother was speaking about, they
• 1:11:03
  took out his fingernails. They start decapitating his
• 1:11:06
  fingers found not mistaken. And it reminds me, you know
• 1:11:08
  what, approaching this yar of Arbane very soon.
• 1:11:10
  That was that time when people used to go to Siara, to the
• 1:11:13
  shrine of Imam and Hussain, and they'll give their limbs.
• 1:11:15
  And the very famous poetry in the Arab world, Lokata Arjuna al
• 1:11:19
  Yadain. Yeah.
• 1:11:21
  Hussain, whether you cut our limbs, our hands, our legs,
• 1:11:24
  we'll come crawling. The love of the hell base is
• 1:11:27
  never going to end and it will continue.
• 1:11:29
  And Insha Allah sectarian, let's go back.
• 1:11:32
  No, I don't think you'll sound. Sectarian.
• 1:11:34
  But yeah, this is the problem. You're Shia.
• 1:11:36
  You wanna speak? You're sectarian.
• 1:11:38
  Yeah, and this is coming from the Shia themselves.
• 1:11:40
  But I think the whole issue, I think the Sony world needs a
• 1:11:43
  change. I'll save it.
• 1:11:45
  We'll save it for another day. All right, guys.
• 1:11:47
  Because only one needs to do more when it comes to all right
• 1:11:50
  we. Part 2.
• 1:11:51
  No. Part 2.
• 1:11:52
  Part 2. You should have said this at the
• 1:11:54
  beginning because this is what I'm saying I didn't want.
• 1:11:56
  It to go this way, that's the problem.
• 1:11:57
  It's true that. There is a responsibility on
• 1:12:00
  them as. Well, I'm not blaming them.
• 1:12:01
  No, there is responsibility. On the majority.
• 1:12:04
  Is all we've got. So yeah, I think yeah, I'm
• 1:12:07
  responsible. That enough.
• 1:12:08
  All right, That's it. No, but I see you next week.
• 1:12:10
  Is a majority. Thank you.
• 1:12:12
  Take care. We'll see you next week.
• 1:12:14
  What's the?