Latest / Learn Literacy Podcast / 17. Ellen O'Brian - OG & Hope for Students
Transcript
- Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hi everyone and welcome to this episode of the Learn Literacy Podcast, where we advocate language for life by teaching literacy through language and structure. I'm very excited today for this practitioner profile, and I have with me as my guest and OG fellow, Ellen O'Brien. Welcome, Ellen. Thanks for being here. Ellen O'Brien: Thank you, Cheryl, for having me. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I'm so glad we can meet like this and I've appreciated knowing you as as an OG friend for some time. So it's nice to learn more about you in this setting. So So I'm I'm very interested in people's OG stories and how they learned about OG and we're on opposite sides of Canada, which is kind of neat, and we have different perspectives being, I'm on the East Coast, you're on the West Coast. So how did you learn about OG and and start your journey? Ellen O'Brien: the very first time I ever heard of OG, or at least where it registered, I My son was in grade two, and his grade one teacher ⁓ had done some ⁓ from the school was ⁓ explaining the testing to And we were asking a lot of clarifying questions and it was we hadn't had a full psych ed yet, but we were emerging in this our very curious. son was struggling a lot in school and she I later realized she never told me this but I later realized she was circumventing ⁓ ⁓ limitations within our public school system school school district over they had lost a suit a lawsuit over educating dyslexic student ⁓ and so couldn't ⁓ recommend OG because of what had happened with that. had to show that the school system they had been equipped that we need to show how we're meeting the students' needs instead of referring out. And I was like, well he's already in grade two and he's not learning to read and write. And he is quite bright. And ⁓ these mom questions and ⁓ I think was caught between a rock and a hard place with the line of questions. And I was utterly ignorant about everything literacy. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: And she circumvented like, well, here's what we're doing at a school. But I have a friend and my friend's from church and he tells me that he learned to read. And so everything got put off on this a ma I I think he was at the time I thought he was real, but now I wonder, was he imaginary? Like her way of ⁓ but I think he was a real, like middle aged man, and he learned to read with an OG tutor. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: And so she suggested we find out about that. so that was the first time I ever heard about OG ⁓ then went and found an OG tutor to to teach my son. Cheryl Urbanczyk: how did help your son? And then I'll you how you got into your own training and things like that. Ellen O'Brien: ⁓ so again, being the ignorant parent that I was, we found somebody, it was spring, I guess it was spring of grade one, and get I s yeah, and he started reading. Like within six weeks, we were like, wow, this is impressive. And I mean, you're in grade one, so you're it doesn't take long with good instruction to actually make some gains. And then Cheryl Urbanczyk: Wow. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: The grade one teacher did suggest that we do some literacy work over the summer. And I thought, well, we always read to our kids. They always keep a little picture journal. ⁓ and we didn't sustain OG tutoring. We should have. But I was a and I probably still am in some ways, a let's play outside in the summer mama, not a summer school kind of mom. And I just didn't know. I didn't know enough. so that's how it it was very impactual for him and went on to help him make great strides. ⁓ eventually, like a year and a half later, put him in a school that was OG based to sure he could make all the gains that he needed to make. But then the midst of this, his OG tutor said, Well, you should take the course, because my background was not literacy or anything, but middle school education, my teachables Spanish and social ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Okay. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: But I had entered education keenly aware of in my home city middle schoolers who were struggling to read and write. And I thought it was socioeconomic disparity between the suburbs and inner city and those kinds of things. and then ⁓ like do you know when you're 18? ⁓ So gone because I was worried about these middle schoolers. I went and studied middle school education, not realizing nobody would teach me a single thing about how to teach anybody to read and write with middle schoolers. but it also meant when my son had started struggling, I was really like, ⁓ my gosh, I've seen the high price in human life when kids read and write. And so was concerned. So she said, ⁓ you should take this course. I thought, Yeah, I probably should. It just it'll help me understand my son better. And so I took my first OG course, I guess a year and a half he started OG tutoring. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Wow, that's neat. ⁓ I didn't realize we we have so many parallels because I found out about OG when I tried to find help for my daughter. And ⁓ even in the Toronto area there's a lot of people, there still isn't a lot of people doing OG. And so I just took the training because it was hard finding somebody and then kept going. ⁓ well that's Ellen O'Brien: No. Cheryl Urbanczyk: neat. And so what inspired you to keep going after let let's say the associate level? Because you would have then done which was called certified, and now you're a fellow. So why did you feel continuing on that journey was important for you? Ellen O'Brien: Yeah. ⁓ I think initially I was just fine working as an OG tutor, loved it. ⁓ what started happening is I was working full time and then I was as an OG tutor at a school and then in the afternoons I was tutoring neighborhood kids or friends, children or whatever. And I was running out I there was no more time when people needed me to help their kids. And I realized Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: ⁓ not gonna see any kind of social or systemic change. And by that I even by then I was meeting with my MLAs, trying see what could have changed in our school systems. I'd written letters to s school trustees, met with school admin, because I was like, Yeah, I want my son's education better, but I also want to have. And I think it was this realization that there were Cheryl Urbanczyk: Everybody. Ellen O'Brien: I had no more ⁓ teach other children, but if I taught educators, it would multiply and there could be enough OG tuners for other kids or and classroom that knew how to incorporate structural literacy. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, ⁓ That's neat. ⁓ so what thinking to your middle school experience, How if you could go back to yourself at that time with the OG knowledge that you have now, what would you do to help those students? Cause I find like when I do trainings and talk to people, I almost feel like that's such a high need group and it's not addressed a lot. We kind of think, okay, early reading, remedial reading, but that age group is very unique in terms of what they would need and supports and stuff. ⁓ Ellen O'Brien: Yeah. ⁓ well, first of all, I mean, just foundationally, I think not give up. I think ⁓ Julie Washington, I've heard her say this in in conferences and stuff, but if we know that 70% of kids are not reading proficiently in by grade eight, then the problem is our instruction, not just those kids. And so the first thing would be kids can learn to read and write. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm, exactly. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: later. It doesn't early intervention is so important. But if that did not happen, then we don't have to give up on a child. But that would mean I think of resources and instructional time. And so it's because I think literacy is so important, I would love to see a reallocation of let's not give up on these kids. Let's increase Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: the intervention and the remediation rather than give up and just go for accommodations. I think schoolers need accommodations and need ongoing instruction. Actually even senior high. ⁓ And probably just because I've had the privilege of working with a lot of middle school and high schoolers. And I've sk seen kids become readers and become writers who weren't. And so Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Right. Ellen O'Brien: I don't I think we think, well, if they can't read by now, they're not going to. But we rather than making those assumptions because we don't know the kind of instruction they've had, or even what was happening in their own lives. people's motivation can shift as they see a future ahead. If it's someone that believes not just believes in them, because that sounds good, and there's lots of t there are plenty of adults who can believe in young people, but you want to believe And then have the hope of the gains they can make as a learner grounded in reality. And I feel like OG taught me how to not just be hopeful, but have hope grounded in reality. That and I can actually give you some s teach you some skills so you can. I think would also want to know, because I wasn't even an English teacher, that we need to help. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: Subject teachers know how to manage literacy. There was a research article that came out last summer actually about this, the middle school or adolescent instruction, so middle school, high school, ⁓ we need to teach science and socials teachers to teach literacy. And even math teachers if you think about word problems and stuff. Cheryl Urbanczyk: ⁓ exactly. Yeah. there wow, there's so many rich things that you said there. But ⁓ completely agree about everything being ⁓ a literacy subject. And sometimes, when I'm ⁓ interviewing for and things like that, I will ask like junior or middle school teachers how you integrate literacy into content. And they sometimes have a very hard time thinking and answering that because I I don't know if they had that kind of thing taught to them or part of their worldview, let's say, right? But it's just you we can't lose a minute any place. And the the role of that academic reading and writing and those content words, they they need to know that. And so important. And then the other thing that really resonated me with me that you said was about not giving up. And I think sometimes when we seek see the students with all their behaviors and their shell, you know what I mean, and they're not wanting to appear like weak or not able, that we have a lot of work to do, but so much of our OG work and the skills that we have that emotional soundness of the lesson showing them they can be successful is really so key because until they believe it, we can believe in them, but they need to see it themselves. And then once they start, they just kind of keep going. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: Wig f is it I think Wigfield and Eccles, they actually have a whole framework around this and around do the student think they have the ability? Is it worth my effort? Can I do this? Is it worth my effort? Like does it connect to any of my meaningful? And I can't remember all of it, but it's such a it's a three framework around helping adolescents connect to what they need in learning. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. that's that's important. And I so advocate for, that linguistic competence and not just like functional literacy that to access the gifts you have, to ⁓ be an engaged person, to interact society, they need to be competent and not just learn how to use assistive technology. They need skills too. Hmm. That's really neat. So it sounds like you've been, in the OG world for some time. Like what do you see as some differences when you first started learning OG to to where things are now in terms of y maybe people's awareness or hot topics or things like that? Ellen O'Brien: So pragmatically, one change, when I started, phonological awareness was embedded, like in our spelling routines and stuff, but there wasn't as much, I think, research came out that showed the importance of it and really weaving it into an OG lesson. So that's a very tangible. And then this is interesting to me. So when I started, I very much started with word work only. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: in terms of teaching the t children sound symbol correspondence and then the syllable types and and then making ⁓ spelling choices and the spelling patterns. And then and some of this may have been the nature of I was working independently and in a tutoring center and then I moved to a school. In the school for a while, we were doing a lot both with word work and then with writing skills and a little bit with reading comprehension. And then we started focusing really hard on the word work. and then I'm sorry, there's this and then ⁓ like ⁓ I think at the last Academy conference when Dr. Marianne Wolf was calling us to don't forget vocabulary, don't forget other skills that are also literacy and having them embedded and interwoven. And so I can't tell what is Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: an individual difference, what's flavor of the month, but I do feel an OG hour is a fast hour that's individualized for that child. But it maybe I feel like there are competing values when not a child who can't read at all. But when a child's gotten to morphology and there's multiple needs. And then we were just talking about adolescence. So then with an adolescent there's multiple needs Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: ⁓ in their academic courses too. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm. I really appreciate that because even if you are an older student and you're just kind of working on decoding, it can be hard to do comprehension and vocabulary in the setting of a lesson because of where they're at. And so you either have to find words that can support that or do other things, like oral listening and vocabulary that way. But I think, one thing I've been thinking a lot about is how we use even the dictation portion for supporting writing more and kind of putting things in ⁓ and teaching some grammar, sentences and stuff and Because it is so much. It and it's should be beyond just reading, right? And not not just reading only, but yeah, the hour is fast and there's always so much to do. So I completely get that. And I kind of feel like maybe over a a set of a couple lessons we weave through some things and cycle through things, But every lesson that's tough. So all right. What ⁓ Ellen O'Brien: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: If you had to identify an area of where you'd like to learn more as a practitioner or something that's piqued your interest recently in wanting to implement or try in your practice, what would that be? Ellen O'Brien: Ha, I love this question. ⁓ I've been reading a lot around adolescent ⁓ skills just because I seem to work with a lot of I seem to work with a lot of those and there's less research that I'm finding. There's lots of research on I mean I I I would say that's probably it because I've even asked academic researchers like, Am I missing a stream or am I not putting in the right searches? Or so I would say that's Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Yeah. Because I think there is. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: ongoing, probably ongoing, maybe not new, are the adolescent learner and the multilingual learner. Because I think my youngest acquired English ⁓ like five and sh because of multilingualness was a lot more delayed. We were aware I'm pretty sure she was dyslexic, but a school system was not one to label her ⁓ as dyslexic in any or SLD ⁓ or even assess it because of the multilingualness. And so ⁓ I started with that, her really reading the literature. I was already curious, but that may be also than personal. So those are two ongoing streams of reading. And I think ⁓ I was thinking, I like to have new goals in each kind of school year. And I was like, well, it doesn't ⁓ be ⁓ for this school year. And so I think this school year I'm looking to read. I have a lot of tools around vocabulary, but I wanna read the research around vocabulary for this next school year. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I think that's That's neat. I there's so much coming out about link of oral language and all that's really to me vocabulary based because whatever your oral language is is by your default your vocabulary. And same with your background knowledge, well that's kind of like your vocabulary, because that's the words you express your knowledge with. And it's so and circular and It it is very interesting. So you've done amazing sessions at the OG conferences on teaching ⁓ multilanguage learners, what would be the top two pieces of advice you would give to people? Because I feel like you that lot of people maybe ⁓ understanding or maybe because schools don't have resources will just say, well, they're a multi-language learner. So we'll use that as the reason for why they're not learning. And, in metro areas I think OG practitioners see multilanguage students, right? So Ellen O'Brien: Top two. Okay, one would be around assessment. this comes actually from Melissa Farrell's book. for around called reading assessment. but the two things that will actually work for assessing multilingual students and they don't have to know English yet, is assessing their phonological awareness and assessing rapid automatic naming. Now assessing their RAM. ⁓ could happen in their language of origin if you have a multilingual worker who could do that. And the phonological awareness doesn't they don't have to know English. Like you were taking something like Kilpatrick's past ⁓ or recently released and Ferrell and there's some others. ⁓ But you take one of those where there's multiple versions of the assessment. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: And what I would say is you give that person you go through with manipulatives and you teach them how to take the test without having to know ⁓ words. And so Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. But just see how they do with those sounds and things. ⁓ Yeah. Right. Ellen O'Brien: And you use manipulatives like on the on the version A and then version B, you actually get do the task. And so you're getting a bit of dynamic assessment, their ability to learn, but you also can then see is there a phonological need ⁓ underlying. So you we don't want long, they're called long E L L kids, but ⁓ think we want multilingual kids that can just flourish in both their languages or all of Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Ellen O'Brien: Which is because often it's more than two. So I think that's one thing ⁓ is just assessment with phonological awareness and RAN. And then the second thing would be there is a tension because ⁓ is we're getting this one-on-one time and it's so precious. But don't despise the down the sound symbol work without doing all the vocabulary work that's obviously needed. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Ellen O'Brien: Because if we can get this ch student decoding, then that same student has the opportunity to read in their areas of interest and by reading their own vocabulary they'll grow and they'll find the words they in the arenas that matter the most to them ⁓ I was speaking with an educator just yesterday and the kid came from a country where there was Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Ellen O'Brien: a school administrator, there is a war and so the child w had trouble being present for learning in the first year because there was a lot to process. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: So that by the time she was present for learning, it was grade four. Well, no grade four teachers, she'd come in the end of grade two. Grade three was a bit of a write-off. It was an as a transition. And so then grade five four. Now she's ready to learn, but grade four teachers don't teach you how to read and write. And so so what do we do? I think we need systems what do we do. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm. It's a lot of transition. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: To make sure children can actually decode whatever their age. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: The decoding will have an expediting trajectory for the vocabulary, for the sentence structure, the grammar, the background knowledge that's shared with the local color culture. Now ⁓ me two and I'm gonna throw one more in there. Yeah, there's ⁓ think the other big thing I feel is important is really honoring that that child has vast funds of knowledge. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. That's something I found good. Ellen O'Brien: And they may not intersect with the knowledge that is easy and useful at school, but it doesn't mean they come ignorant. It means that their funds of knowledge may only slightly intersect what is the knowledge base that's assumed at school. ⁓ so how can we also learn ⁓ that student and their knowledge base? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. No, that's that's so true. And I think ⁓ I when I think of what like AI can do to help us write decodables and other things, I think in kids' interests and supporting, ⁓ some things about is ⁓ is so neat. I, probably you the same. Like we just had to write all of our stories and make all of our stuff Ellen O'Brien: And it's improved because I tried it when it first came out. ⁓ This can't do it. Now it can't. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I know. It's it's really amazing like that. Yeah. I I think the responsive piece is so key and even reminds me of those ⁓ kids in middle school that, ⁓ have have had reading trauma or haven't learned to read that we still have to have an asset lens with them too, right? There's so much all the kids have and it's just ⁓ always being that, we can teach and reach them and we can. It just takes time and patience and work and that building that trust with the student and ⁓ things like that. That's neat. for sharing that. ⁓ So what do you find like OG challenges in your current practice work now or what you're seeing ⁓ out on the West Coast and landscape there. Ellen O'Brien: I think we still need more OG tutors. I'm contacted regularly, have a regular referral list, and yet they're like, yeah, everybody's cool. ⁓ And I'm not sure that everybody who's claiming OG has ⁓ is doing professional development, is that kind of thing. ⁓ My fellow said, ⁓ Ellen, there's no OG police. So I want to be careful with that. Cheryl Urbanczyk: True. You know. Ellen O'Brien: Because there's more than one way maybe you've acquired structured literacy knowledge base. But I I think just w more practitioners, ⁓ inherent in that is I also feel one of the big needs in our school systems is how do we equip early so that the kids that are then accessing Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: remediation are those that really need that level of intensity. ⁓ and so I would love it if our teacher training programs began to weave in structured literacy. Not just what I love it, but I have practitioners that take the OG course regularly. Why was it like this? Why Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know. That's that's always the question. So in Ontario they've they have instituted like screening with Acadians and stuff like that. Is that happening in BC or not? I know it's different province by province, right? Okay. Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: So this this last year this last year was the first year that the province of BC ⁓ mandated s early screening. and then the next thing is now what do we do with these screeners? And I think Cheryl Urbanczyk: ⁓ it it's been a I've seen a multi year process 'cause it you have to learn how to use the screener, that okay, now I have the data, what does it mean? How do I use it? And then ⁓ it a long change process, ⁓ but start somewhere, ⁓ so Ellen O'Brien: Right. Right. It's a it's a it's a it's a step in the right direction for sure. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. what you see as future goals for yourself and your OG work? I know you've started O ⁓ OG ⁓ Education and doing great things through that. So what's on the future for Ellen O'Brien: yeah, I would say on the future is for sure equipping more educators. ⁓ and then with an eye towards what could help maybe a teacher's not sure they need ⁓ full blown OG. they're they're dipping their finger ⁓ or e even their toe, but just just just like is this water even water I want to get into? ⁓ some workshops that would be ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Well Mm-hmm. Ellen O'Brien: Here's, you know, for a basic intervention kind of private teacher, what do I need to know? Or for subject matter teachers. ⁓ ⁓ hoping to create some of those workshops and just give also one of the things I think is really important is for educators to be ⁓ in in learning communities where they can discuss what they're learning, what they're when they try it and it doesn't go well. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Ellen O'Brien: We're trying to build community connections that way, where whether it's ⁓ a weekly coaching or meetups at a coffee shop to discuss something. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I think the community aspect is important ⁓ ⁓ I'm just kind of independent, so there's not a lot of OG around. So this is one way I'm making connection and I try to keep in touch with OG friends around and it's it's a really wonderful community and everyone is ⁓ always giving I feel and likes talk and share and it makes it like even better. Well, ⁓ as we wrap up today, would ⁓ a piece of advice that you would give to practitioners, like on any topic, on anything that you think ⁓ that you can share from your wealth of experience. Ellen O'Brien: Maybe it would be like our kids keep going and find a way, but that's what we as educators like we get front row seats to the resilience ⁓ dyslexics. ⁓ but I but as educators we can become very tired at sometimes. ⁓ so to really learn be inspired by their resilience in our own resilience, I mean that that and the the Keep talking, whether some of us, as you and I have learned, we both are, are parents, not just educators, but that community piece of as we talk, as we go, are actually creating space for learners who are neurodiverse, ⁓ by just normalizing it in conversation. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that that's actually so true. And I think ⁓ the awareness raising is is really key and I'll just share a little story in connection to that. So I joined this group for female entrepreneurs. It's called High Vibe Women and it's really fun. And so they always make you introduce yourself and tell about what you do and then they tell you to give an ask for your audience. So a lot of times my ask is just understanding that this is a thing and that there are people out there that learn to read in different ways and may have real challenges learning how to read because I feel it's a just one more place to talk about it. So Yeah, it is really fun. Ellen O'Brien: That's so fun. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Well, thanks so much for this conversation, Ellen. I've really appreciated it. And it's always ⁓ great, great to connect and hear and learn from different people. And I've appreciated all the great things you've said and I know people listening will too learn from it and and ⁓ take away some inspiration on how to be a better OG practitioner or maybe start studying OG themselves. Thank you so much. ⁓ Ellen O'Brien: Thank you, Cheryl. It's always a pleasure to talk with you.