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3.4 "Having The Guts To Run A Campaign Is A Thing" · Public Good

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Shannon Moore.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: And I'm Justin Fraser.
• 0:03
  Speaker 3: And this is Public Good on the Prairies.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: With trustee elections happening at the end of October 2026
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: in Manitoba, we decided to speak to someone who has
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: served as a trustee in Winnipeg for the last four years.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Our guest today reflects on what motivated them to run
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: to become a trustee, what the role actually entails, and
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: how trustees balance the needs and interests of students, families, educators,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and the broader community. We consider what would be lost
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: if locally elected school boards are centralized or eliminated, and
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: how trustees' local knowledge and relationships can make a difference
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: in the schools they represent. Our conversation also examines the
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: role of school boards in advancing the public school ideal,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: including universal access, equal opportunity, public funding, public governance, and
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: serving the public interest, and how meeting this public school
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: ideal is increasingly difficult in the context of inadequate funding.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: And then finally, we turn to issues shaping the Prairie context,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: from changes to teacher regulation and certification, to organized efforts
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: to influence or even take over school boards. We ask
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: what voters should consider when choosing their trustees. And throughout
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: the episode invites us to think about school trusteeship, not
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: simply as a political position, but as a form of
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: local democratic stewardship, public education.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Joining us to discuss this is Tamara Cooley. Tamara is
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: currently in her first term as school trustee for the
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: Winnipeg School Division, having held key positions including chairing finance
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: and governance committees, as well as serving as board chair
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: during her second year in office. Outside of trustee work,
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: Tamara works as the manager of finance and administration at
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: North Point Douglas Women's Centre and and consults with local
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: businesses and organizations to develop community-led projects. Tamara lives with
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: her family in the north end of Winnipeg.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Tamara Cooley, welcome to Public Good on the Prairies.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: First off, what made you want to become a school trustee?
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: It's probably a somewhat familiar story for a lot of
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: folks who ran in 2022. And it was the result
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: of becoming really integrated into the movement through Bill 64.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: So I was a PAC chair at Luxton, at Colexton
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: School prior to that, and was involved in little school
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: politics at the PAC level. And that's pretty much it
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: in terms of any kind of politics, but in terms
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: of education stuff. And bill 64 started and the, uh,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: say no to bill 64 and all of, all of
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: those things started up. And I found that I had
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: a role in translating what the changes were going to
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: mean to parents and student and parent councils. And I
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: was able to use some of my data expertise and,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: and draw pictures for people and really explain. to regular
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: parents and regular folks what the impacts were going to be.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: And so I found myself brought into forums and that
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: kind of thing and really enjoyed being in the advocacy
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: space at that level. So that's kind of how I
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: got into that kind of work. And then as we
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: came into the 2022 school year, 2022, 2023, I started
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: thinking about it because a few folks said I should
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: consider it. And I hadn't really considered it before that.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: And I did consider it. I felt that we had
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: quiet representation in our ward prior to that. So I
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: wanted to bring in something a little bit louder, stronger.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: And so decided to run kind of July, August 2022.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: And it was a bit of a process. Having the
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: guts to run a campaign is a thing. doing the
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: work is totally separate uh running that electoral campaign is
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: is a big thing so how would.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: You explain the position to someone like what exactly does
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: a school trustee do okay.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of i think misunderstandings and a
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: lot of people just don't know period like if you
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: were to ask kids or they're like what is a
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: school i have no idea what that is you So
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: we operate a little bit differently than a lot of
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: other elected bodies in that we operate as a unit.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: So we are elected into a ward, but I don't
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: just represent the folks in that ward. I represent all
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: students and families and consider all of those people who
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: are in Winnipeg School Division. So we're elected by ward
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: because that's a system we have. And we often go
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: to those events and all of that. But we are
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: there nine times. different perspectives or nine people there to
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: represent community in decision making, largely to do, one of
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: the biggest roles is to do with budget. So approving budget,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: it's a fiduciary role. And then also policy and providing
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: direction and strategic guidance to our education leaders within the
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: school system. So the only other really big, significant piece
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: that I would like to highlight is that we are
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: also responsible for hiring the CEO and chief superintendent, which
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: we went through that process this year. So we had
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: direct experience with that. That doesn't happen all the time, obviously.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: So that's the role generally. And I would say if
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: somebody asked me like, what's a week in a life
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: or a within a life kind of thing. It's meetings,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: some public meetings, some community meetings, some meetings that you
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: would see on our live stream in terms of just
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: our board meetings. It's hearing recommendations, asking questions, asking for
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: additional information and trying to make the best decisions we
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: can based on what we know our community feels wants
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: and needs. I really like hearing your origin story.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: It makes me think now for how many people Bill
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: 64 was the impetus for getting involved. You sort of
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: gave the nod to that being a common story.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Did you mean.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: Bill 64 specifically or that there was something that happened
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: in people's lives?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like Bill 64 really did kickstart a lot
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: of things. And there would be other personal stories that
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: are outside of that as well, the reasons for getting
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: people involved. But the year, so 2022, that election year,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: seven new trustees were elected out of nine in our
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: school division. So there was a significant turnover. Some folks
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: didn't run, some folks were unseated. And so there was
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: a big turnover. And I think there was a lot
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: of new energy. And I think Bill 64 drove a
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: lot of that.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it could be the origin story
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: for people for public ed too, Bill 64. And I
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: just think that the power of just saying to somebody,
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: I think you would be good at this.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: That's maybe a.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: Good A good reminder for those of us that have
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: people in our lives that we would like to be
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: our representatives to just say, give them the little push
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: to say, I think you would be good at this.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: So thank you for that. You started speaking about budget
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: and you have to think about the interests of various people.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: And I'm wondering, how do you balance the interests of students, parents,
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: teachers and people in your ward?
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: So my approach has been to ask a lot of
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: questions about the information that we have that's guiding us.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: So ask for a lot of background information as to
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: the reason why recommendations are being made in any direction.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: And then specifically ask whose voices are included in that recommendation.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Because there are a lot of us, myself included, who
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: are not shy about advocating. And so my voice I
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: know will be heard. My voice will be something that
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: is considered when I'm talking to my elected representatives or whatever.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: But there are so many groups and so many people
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: who are not engaged, have no idea how to be engaged,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: are disengaged for very good reason. And so a lot
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: of the decision making that we've done and that I've
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: done over the past four years has been delayed or
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: has had an extra step added because we've asked the question,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: whose voices are not here? And how do we try
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to get those folks heard? So those are kind of
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: the steps that I take in terms of I ask
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of questions and I ask for background information
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  Speaker 1: and I ask for academic stuff. I ask for surveys
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: and research and all of that to help frame things
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: up in terms of a decision. I have a business degree.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: my world we write business cases and have all of
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: the background information for that it's it's the same in
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: this case I ask for that kind of information financial
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: political educational obviously what's educational pedagogy those kinds of things
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: just ask for that information to see what's happening so
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: those that's how we make those decisions.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: Can I just ask a follow-up in regards to who
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: you're hearing from because when we had the opportunity to
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: speak to Sachin Maharaj about centralization in Ontario, he said
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: one of the big problems is that when people go
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: to call someone, there's no one to call, right? There's
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: no trustee to reach out to. Who out of those
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: groups of people are you most often hearing from? Students, parents, teachers,
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: and just people that live in your ward?
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Parents, for sure. And that's often our role. If we
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: do hear directly from teachers, we often encourage them to
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: go back through administration because we are... the boss's boss.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: And so having that direct conversation with teachers about their
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: particular work environment is okay to hear generally, but probably
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: not deal with specifically. So just staying in our lane
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: that way. But we definitely, definitely hear most from community,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: specifically parents. I have heard, we have heard sometimes from students,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: but it's the vast majority of people who reach out
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: to us directly as trustees are parents.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: What's the volume of like that if somebody's thinking of
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: getting into the job?
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: It's small. It's small. If an issue comes up, you'll
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: get a series of emails often, but it will be
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: similar in tone and very concentrated about one specific thing
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: within a week or so. In terms of phone calls
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: with parents, I've probably had one a month at the
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: most in terms of direct conversations with parents about individual issues.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: We also have quarterly meetings with our community. We've split
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: into four different district advisory committees. So we have lots
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: and lots of opportunity to engage, but those are within
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: structured meetings.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: So thinking back of Bill 64 in Manitoba, that was
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: really big for all three of us here in this conversation.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: efforts were made to replace locally elected school boards with
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: this provincial education authority. And as Shannon just talked about,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: that similar efforts are being made in Ontario right now.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: We wonder how this might spring up elsewhere in the
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: coming years as well. And so for those who are
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: swayed or convinced that centralization or the elimination of school
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: boards is maybe a good thing, how would you convince
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: them as a school trustee that the local is really
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: important in local democracy or To put it another way,
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: what would be lost if we centralized or just outright
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: eliminated school boards?
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  Speaker 1: So some of my talking points from four years ago
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: would have included the misrepresentation within a group like that.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: So Winnipeg as a in our example, would have had
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: one or two people on that board. So we have
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: more students than any other location in the province, but
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: would have had a much smaller representation. So we would
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: not be appropriately represented geographically in that case. And I
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: think that that would probably run true for, it'd be
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: really hard to make sure that one board of 10
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: can represent geographic locations appropriately. And then... Layer on top
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: of that, the diversity that exists within each of our communities.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: So I live in a neighborhood that is in the
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: North End. My ward extends also into Elmwood. Every group
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: that would come and talk to you and answer that
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: question would say that Elmwood and the North End are
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: two totally different neighborhoods. And they are. there's a lot
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: of similarities, but they have their own personalities, their own desires,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: their own issues, their own, all of those things, their
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: own priorities. And so when you break down a city
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: to its communities or break down a location to its communities,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: it's pretty important, I think, to have representation that comes
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: with all of that beautiful color and diversity, because otherwise
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: you don't really get a sense of who you're, the
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: people you're serving are. So For that reason alone, I
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: think it's important to have school boards that are at
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: least representative of their community and can help to build
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: up that voice. That's the main reason. The other reasons
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: exist within how we're funded. Right now we are funded
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: about 60, sometimes a little bit more than 60% by
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: the provincial government. And then the rest by the special
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: levy within our taxation and other sources, which is mostly
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: just the taxation that the other sources are quite small.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: If you remove and split out how you get funded
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: and the decision makers around that, in addition to splitting
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: out the, what is getting decided. you lose both levers
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: of power that you have, one in terms of decision-making
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: and direction and one in terms of money, which is
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: a huge lever in terms of how you can affect
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: change and make decisions within your school division. So having
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: those two pieces and having direct control over those levers
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: or direct influence over those levers allows communities to build
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: schools that represent the values of those communities. That's what
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I would say. It's a long-winded apologize. It's good.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you for that really helpful explanation of the importance
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: of local governance. And for our listeners, perhaps would you
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: be able to offer specific examples of maybe how your
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: local knowledge of your connections have benefited the people that
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: you represent in the schools and in your ward?
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think back over three years, a
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: specific example specifically for my ward. Because like I said,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: we don't necessarily make decisions specific to our ward, but
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of the work that I am focused on
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: that really has impact in my ward is a lot
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: of equity work. We've been working hard as a division
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: to try to make that a reality, to use an
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: equity lens in how we're funding, to use an equity
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: lens in how we're resourcing. And so one of the
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: things that's happened is our community connections, we had some
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: of the people in our school division set up conversation
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: with community supporters. So organizations that provided supports to community
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: elected officials and school folks in the Elmwood community and
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: brought them all together in order to answer some questions
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: that were adjacent to education. So We weren't asking folks
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: for pedagogical guidance or anything like that. But we were
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: talking about some of the big barriers, including transportation, housing,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: food insecurity, those kinds of things, and how we can
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: start to build those connections. So that kind of collaboration,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the move for our school division to reach out and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: build a strategic plan this year or this last year
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: that is of the voices of our community, that's what
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I brought forward. So this idea of collaboration, transparency, open
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: ears in order to guide our journey towards equity was important.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: And so those are all examples of that. I think
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: how you engage with your community is a really good
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: indicator of how you consider them, how you respect them,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: and really what your intention is. And so that's something
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: that I've worked hard to influence.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: Uh, you mentioned other sources of funding. Can you just
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: elaborate what you mean by that other than public funds?
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, so generally, so all school divisions, um, have
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: other sources of funding outside of their provincial government and
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: a special levy or however they manage that. So our
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: bucket includes donations, That comes through the Children's Heritage Foundation,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: things like that, at the Winnipeg School Division, and also
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: federal money. So it includes that kind of money that's
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: not considered provincial and not city. So it's not a
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: large bucket. The information is publicly available. I think it's
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: in and around, it's a small percentage, like less than
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: 1% of our budget.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: And do you have criteria for what you use to
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: decide to take donations? Like, is that a school board policy?
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: I think there's opportunities for... I know there's opportunities for
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: how boards can manage and design how they accept money
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: from external donors in the right way. So boards aren't
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: intended to be deep into operational decisions, nor should they
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: be as individuals who have relationships and communication with folks
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: on the outside of the school division. There are frameworks
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: that can be set up and Winnipeg School Division has
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: been able to do this, but there are many ways
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: probably of doing that to set up, to organize and
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: to really guide the decision-making in a good way on
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: how school division will engage with donors. So at the baseline,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: basically we have some rules that are predefined for us
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: and that we define. So the PSA, the Public Schools
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Act sets out a couple of, indications and rules for
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: us to follow. They require that school divisions set up
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: a code of conduct and declare conflicts of interest. And
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: what that allows is for clarity around interactions outside of
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: the school division to be known and the relationship to
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: those things to be controlled. And on top of the
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: PSA rules and the code of conduct that every school
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: division sets up and declarations of conflict of interest are
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Two things that interact with each other or can. Policies
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: that set out how you interact with people giving a
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: school division money and also the school division Guidance, things
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: like values, strategic plans, priorities, committee work that turns into
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: board recommendations. So really the community values and direction that
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: is coming from community along with policies that guide staff
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: behavior in terms of conflict of interest and how you
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: engage with money taking action. as well as board members, trustees.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: And so in the last four years at Winnipeg School Division,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: we spent some time looking at these things. and actually
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: augmented some of our policies to do with how trustees
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: interact with potential donors and developed over a year developing
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: with community. a strategic plan that really puts a focus
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: on our values. So those two things together provide the
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: decision framework for our leaders, education leaders, to make the
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: best possible decisions on how we take money and who
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: we partner with. And I think this bodes well for
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: all school divisions in terms of setting up this framework
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: so that it's not individuals making decisions about individual interactions,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: but it really does push the decision into a discussion
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: about values alignment. And so That's where we were able
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: to land as a school division and board. And it
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: was super helpful because we do interact with donors outside
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: of our government partners and taxation because we need to,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: because there's not enough resources within the system. And we
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: know what our priorities are when we think about them
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: and talk to community and define what they are. And
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: so then we can more clearly define how we work
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: with donors in bringing in and helping completing some of
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: the projects and the programs that need to happen. So
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: we do have a couple of ways that funding comes in.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's partnerships with directly with the school division and
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: all of that is managed through our CEO and his office.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: And then we have the Children's Heritage Fund, which is
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: purpose-driven fund. So people can direct to a school or
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: direct to a playground or direct to a special project
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: or just put it into the Children's Heritage Fund to
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: accept those donations. So they're only directed by the projects
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that we already have in place. And so the conversations
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: and the guidance that we have is how does this
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: serve our community? Community, how does this serve our values
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and does this align with our values? So those kinds
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: of things. So we are definitely, as well as all
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: other divisions, a one that does have those relationships with
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: folks and we welcome those relationships where there's joint values
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: and common interests.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I just think that the funding conversations, obviously, with
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: this being a podcast about public good, one of the
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: ideals of the public good is that it's publicly funded
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: is one of the most important elements of it. And
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: just so for people to hear about the need for
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: school boards to seek additional funding, like, for example, in BC,
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: where Justin currently lives, and I grew up, I think
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: most school boards now have an official fundraising position in
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: their school boards soliciting funds from Elsewhere, which then, of course,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: you always have to ask the questions of strings attached.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to... It gets challenging. And that's
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: even being an outsider, I could have told you that
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: that was the case. As soon as money exchanges hands,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: there sometimes are expectations, right? Yes. And so that's something
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: you always have to be really, really careful with when
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: we are delivering a public... We are responsible for maintaining
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: a division that serves... 30,000 families, like you can't take
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: direction from outside of that division, outside of the education experts.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: So it's a challenge like anything else.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So we are a podcast called Public Good
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: on the Prairies. And we have two questions right now
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: that are going to be into the public good part
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: and then to the prairies part. First, the public good.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: So in order for schools to be considered truly public,
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: they should meet all five aspects of the public school ideal.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: And this comes from Sue Winton's work, who's basing on
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: other authors as well. The first being universal access to education.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: The second, be paid for by the government, which is
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: why I was asking those follow-up questions. It's like, when
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: the government doesn't fund, what do we do to find
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: the funds? Provide equal opportunity to all students. Serves the
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: public interest. and be publicly governed in public, which is
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: where you come in. In your experience, how do school
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: boards who represent the publicly governed and public part support
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: the other four elements?
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: And so you've already.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: Mentioned equity being something that you're thinking about, but how
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: do you keep those other four blocks in check?
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't have control over the funding model that exists,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: although we can advocate into that. And our control is
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: developing a good relationship with our funding partners, the provincial government.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: And I think we've done a decent job at doing that,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: but that is always the job, is to make sure
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: that there's a relationship there because they have a significant
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: impact on how we're doing with that funding model. So
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: there's that piece. So we are responsible for letting those
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: funders know when we're short, that we're short. We have
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: had issues around historical issues, around deferred maintenance. We have
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: an old school division. So things like that, where we're like,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: our buildings need help. We need air conditioning for our students.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: So we can go to the province with very specific
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: needs and have good conversations with them there. We are
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: responsible for talking to the people who live in the
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: jurisdictions that pay the City of Winnipeg taxes. So for mine,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: but for any municipal taxes, we have open forum meetings
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: every year as we're going through the budget process that
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: allows for communities, school communities, and also the larger community
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: to weigh in on what we're proposing in terms of funding.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: and changes to their taxation that will help fund us.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: We also have the opportunity to advocate for where funding
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: has been removed or funding pieces have been removed. For example,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: we have TIP programs in Manitoba. And those are meant
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: to support housing, low income housing or income measured housing.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: They don't always do that. Sometimes there's exceptions given. And
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of people don't know that the school taxes
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: are also not charged on the new value of those buildings.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: So The city makes a decision to give a grant
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: that foregoes the additional taxation from the increased value on
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: a property that's developed in a certain area because it's
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: providing desperately needed housing or it's being given an exemption
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: to do that. That decision that's made also affects the
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: school division. Two taxes in that area. So the additional
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: taxes that come from there go away. So we have
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: the ability to advocate around that. That's a legislative thing
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: that the city has control over. So we can talk
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: to our partners about that. So all the funding pieces,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: we have lots of advocacy and some decision-making roles. And
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: can you list the other two?
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: So I can be more specific. making sure that schools
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: have universal access. So some things that are happening in
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: other areas of the city, it's not quite as, or sorry,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: other provinces, not other areas of the city, it's not
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: quite as rampant in Manitoba is the idea of boutique programming.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: For example, like hockey academies or mini schools or dance programs,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: which don't offer universal access because they often have, you know,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: you have to fill out an application and there's additional
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: school fees.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: So how would.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: a school trustee in their role, try to make sure
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: that schools are not moving towards models that don't give
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: kids universal access to public education or contribute to inequities
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: because we know that when people can pay for privilege
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: for themselves, for additional programming within a public system, they.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Will do so.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: So how does that come in your conversations where you're
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: saying our role is as trustees, We may be talking
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: about financing, but if we make this financial choice, we're
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: contributing to inequities in our society. And so how do
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: you kind of juggle all of those elements of the ideal?
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so so we I have not had that particular experience,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: but I understand the example that we have a lot
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: of we have a lot of opportunity to guide and
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: frame up following year. in that budget consultation process. So yes,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: we're talking about dollars, essentially at the end, but most
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: of the conversations we have are actually about programming, services,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: additional changes, removing, adding, those kinds of things. So those are,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: we are talking programs and supports for families 99% of
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: the time. At the very end, we talk What does
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: this look like dollars wise, but I can tell you
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: that advocating for things like nutrition programs at school lunches
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: that are supervised so folks can stay there, the transportation,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: the bus funding that the city of Winnipeg has come
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: through with the province in terms of giving bus passports.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Passes.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: So helping with those kinds of things. And we have
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: those conversations about those kinds of projects. Daycare is another
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: thing that would definitely hit our budget line that we'd
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: have a lot of discussion about daycare spaces, what's available nearby.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: We don't fund that, but we provide space and have
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: partnerships with. Those two pieces are the equity piece and
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: the funding are directly linked. And we're generally having those
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: discussions based on the program and who it's serving. and
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: then talking about the dollars and what that looks like afterwards.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: So that's, I think, in our discussions, we're putting that first.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: We're centering on those things in terms of equity and
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: allowing folks to be there, all folks to be there.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: The other piece of that is really asking community members
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: and families, sometimes one by one and sometimes in large groups,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: what's getting in the way of you being here? What's
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: stopping your kids from thriving here? What do you need?
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And that's that example that I gave about that Elmwood
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: community consultation. That was what a lot of that was about.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So we can really understand how we need to move
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and advocate and fund to remove the barriers that are
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: specifically getting in the way of folks who have been
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: underserved for a long time and who continue to be underserved.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: Thank you for that. Just, sorry, one more finance question.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: It A lot of the literature around the ways in
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: which inequities are contributed to in public schools is talking
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: about families just having to pay school fees. Is that
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: something trustees decide? Do you decide?
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Yep. That's part of the various numbers of decisions. So
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: the school fees would come in through a budget line
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: as part of that. But we also talk about school
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: fees as trustees. So yes, that is something schools trustees
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: decide on. And that's totally something that is within the
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: realm of control or influence, at least when it comes
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: down to budget.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: And then how do you make that decision? Because I
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: think that when I was a teacher, the most uncomfortable
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: moment is asking for money from students and then saying
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: to them, if you can't pay... you can go speak
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: to your counselor or that thing that sort of calls
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: them out for not being able to pay. And so
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: I guess that's just a twofold question. Like how, when
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: we know public schools are supposed to be fully publicly funded,
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: do you reconcile even charging fees in the first place?
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: Like how, is it just a, we feel like we
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: have to. And then secondly, even though there are, ways
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: for students to, maybe certain families are not going to
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: be able to pay school fees and we're obviously not.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Going to make them.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: How do we not make them feel called out and
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: recognizing that that contribute to inequities? How do you deal
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: with all of that in your thinking?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can say, I can step out of
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: my trustee role in terms of we haven't had to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: go over a lot of, we haven't had to address
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: those specifics in our, in my four years so far,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: but removing barriers of proof prove that you can't do this.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Removing those barriers is essential and moving towards zero student fees.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: And so that is, I think, every administrator's dream is
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: to be able to not have to move into that space.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: And so it's challenging because of the inequities you talked about.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: It's also challenging to administer. There's a cost that goes
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: along with all of that. And to be able to
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: wipe that out would be I think everybody's.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Because I know I'm not sure I'm not sure if
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: it's your school division but I know there's some school
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: divisions that use apps for this it's like part of
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: the school fees then going to the app that's helping
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: navigate it because for the reasons like when I was
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: in the classroom in 2019 it was kids in my
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: home room that came up and paid me and it's
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: just that moment of Here I am dealing with a
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: money situation with a kid who's then having to tell
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: me that they can't or I'm following up with them.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: And it's just a moment nobody wants to be involved in.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: And then so as a result of that, rather than
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: just getting rid of school fees, they've now created apps.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: So you don't have to have that face to face
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: communication with somebody. But then the money, public money is
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: going to private corporations to run those apps. So I
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: don't even know if apps have hit Winnipeg School Division yet,
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: but in that regard.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not familiar. Yeah. I'm not familiar with anything like
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: that for sure. Um, that has not come up like that,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: but yeah, removing those conversations that have any, that could
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: in any way lead to shame or guilt or, or
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: disparity in any, in any way is, is that is
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: the goal.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I wish, I wish more families, you know, if
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: there was a way we could, we could put that
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: more front and center so that people realize that school fees,
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: which for some families, 40 and $ 50 is not a
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: big thing, but for other families, 40.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: And $ 50.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Is the thing that makes them feel stigmatized at the
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: very beginning of the year.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: And if, If governments are supposed to be fully publicly
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: funding schools, then we shouldn't have to be relying on
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: school fees in the first place.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: And do you want that to be some shame or
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: embarrassment around that to be the reason why kids not
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: coming to school or parents not arriving at school with
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: their kid or whatever the thing is?
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: That those are all barriers that we want to eliminate.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Focusing now. on the prairies part of this podcast series,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: are there issues or topics that you're dealing with as
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: a school trustee that you think are particularly representative of
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: the prairie context? So like, in other words, do you
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: think trustees in Manitoba are dealing with different issues than
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: trustees in BC or Ontario, Quebec, Atlantic provinces?
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I think obviously Winnipeg and Manitoba are We have
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: a very large Indigenous population, so that goes without saying
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: that we have a pretty special context here that requires
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: and deserves lots of attention because we've failed, to be honest,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: at doing the right thing and building for our communities
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: in the way that we should have. I think we
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: probably share that with Saskatchewan. So same prairies, same, same.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: So just demographically, I think there's, there's that I call
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: it as making us very unique and also pretty special.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: And it's something that we, I think we're working on
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: fairly well. And it's, I don't think this is news
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: to any of our, legislative folks or any of the
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Department of Ed folks or anything like that, there's a
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: big focus on figuring out how to reimagine the educational curriculum,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: the structures, the school system, culture in the schools that
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: allow for folks who have not been made to feel
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: welcome and been harmed in schools for that to change.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: So, That's a stat I'd want to look up after, actually, folks,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: is how many school trustees are Indigenous.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I can tell you from the Winnipeg School Division, we
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: had three of nine self-identified as Indigenous or Métis. I
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: don't know how that fares in the rest of the province,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: but I know that with the Winnipeg School Division, in
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: this last term specifically, that was our number.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: I have another Manitoba question. And of course, Justin and
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: I both identify as teachers.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Very much so.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: And so we're going to ask a teacher centered question.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: In 2023, Bill 35 was passed by the Manitoba legislature.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: This bill represents a significant change to how the teaching
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: profession is regulated in Manitoba, particularly because it gives the
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: provincial government explicit authority to establish competent standards, which have
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: Justin and I asking, are we competent? I don't, we're
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: not sure. that teachers must meet to obtain and maintain
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: their teaching certificate. It also establishes a director of certification,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: a public registry containing information about teacher certification, including the
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: class and status of their certificate and records of disciplinary action,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: and a commissioner of teacher of professional conduct that responds
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: to complaints about teacher conduct and competence and establishes new certifications.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: disciplinary mechanisms, just for a little background on that bill.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Have these issues around teacher competence and the teacher registry
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: been discussed or addressed by school boards since Bill 35
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: was passed?
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Is this on your radar? Yeah, there's been a little
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: bit of conversation. So the Mental School Boards Association meets
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: twice a year. All of the members meet twice a year.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: So there's been some information education discussion at that table
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: about things. And there's, I know that our administration is,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: all the administration groups from all the other school divisions
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: must be talking about and thinking about what this means
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: because it really does, in my mind, a bit of
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: a problem when you have two sets of bosses. And
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I have every confidence that our administration is wanting and
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: working very hard at maintaining professional levels of competency and
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: managing staff in the best possible way. And to split
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: that off to another organization, I think I think my
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: guess is we'll present some challenges. I haven't seen that
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: directly yet in my experience, but I can imagine the
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: case that that is a potential for the provincial mandated
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: group to be at odds with how a certain school
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: division chooses to manage a specific situation and or group
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: of teachers. So I can see that as becoming an issue.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: I have not seen that happen yet. But if I
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: was the boss of a, if I was responsible and
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: was the employer, I would want to be able to
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: control my environment in a fairly positive way and work
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: with unions and all that to develop good relationships and
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: work with my staff. And so I can see that
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: as becoming problematic if all of those groups are not aligned.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen that happen, but there's a potential for
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: that when you have another layer. Dotted line reporting is
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: always tricky, right? Like it's always math.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: But as you'd mentioned earlier, you're saying when teachers reach
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: out to you, you suggest that they go through their employers.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: If a parent reaches out to you with a complaint
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: about a teacher, like, is that something that you're experiencing?
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: So we have, I have not specifically had that experience. So,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: but what we would do is we would have, we
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: have a reporting mechanism within our group, within our organization
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: to manage through that. And actually, In our case, and
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the case for all,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: it must be the case for all boards of trustees.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: We are kind of the last board. discussion point. So
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: we try to not get involved in the details until
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: that very end, because we need to sometimes be the
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: arbiters of the final decision. And so if we're involved
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: at the beginning, that messes things up So we really
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: direct those kinds of things into our administration and union
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: folks and have that work through and then would be
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: at the very last case and not often at all,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: but be able to be an arbiter at the end
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: In the current socio-political context, school trustee elections are gaining
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: increased attention. I think unlike it, they have historically. And
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: We can look at the examples given in Alberta and
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: definitely other places of parental rights groups that, you know, again,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: in Alberta, they're offering training sessions to help, quote, take
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: back school boards. So how have you or have you
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: experienced similar efforts in the Manitoba context where groups with
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: these particular ideological agendas are seeking to take over school boards?
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's happening because there's a lot. It's
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: a low barrier entry point. into decision, fiduciary decision making
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: for large groups, right? So to run a campaign, in
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: my experience, you can run a very, very effective campaign
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: for under $ 5, 000 within the local context. So that's a
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: low number. Previous to this campaign in Manitoba, there were
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: no rules about how that was financed. So it was...
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: It was that way in order to reduce barriers for
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: folks to participate, but also then that the flip side
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: of that is that there are no rules. And so
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: folks can come in into that space with various forms
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: of intention to control and influence, right? So that's why.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think back to the last campaign.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: This year, I haven't seen much of that at all.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: but we don't really get started until after Labor Day.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: There's lots of room for folks to jump in. In
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: the 2022 campaign, there was a whole bunch of people,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: groups sending out questionnaires. How do you feel about this?
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Where would you stand on this? So that you would
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: get an endorsement. I don't know if those endorsements came
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: with money, but they I think I probably would have
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: failed on most of those questionnaires to get the endorsement.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: So there was that side of things. And then there were,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: in my experience, I had personal experience with one group
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: that was coming in with an agenda to fund trustee
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: runs in order to get people on side to then
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: help put their agenda in place. I did not get
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: approached by any parental rights or morality-infusing groups, but it's
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: happening in Ontario. It happened in Nova Scotia. It's a
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: common thing, a common approach that has, I think, been
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: well-established in the United States and now is moving north, right?
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: So it's an easy entry point. And so we need
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: to be aware of that. We need to call those
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: things out. And my reaction to that was to request
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: or demand transparency. I know you don't legally have to
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: talk about how you're funded, but you probably should be
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: able to. And if you can't, there's a concern. Always.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: So I happened to be an official agent a few
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: years before for a federal campaign. So I was familiar
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: with the requirements around gathering information for donations, all that
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So all I did for my campaign
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: is mirrored that in terms of I tracked everything. I
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: had all of the information so that, and I did,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I had reporters ask, how are you funded? How many
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: people have done? And I was able to answer that
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: really clearly, really openly. And I think everyone should be
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: able to do that. They should ask themselves why they can't.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Because right now we can ask in advance, but it
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: doesn't have to be disclosed until after the election. Is
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: that correct, the way that works in Venezuela?
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: That is correct. That is correct. And there are rules
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: around that, right? So there are some limitations, but the
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: limitations are so, the campaign buckets are so big that
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: there's not a lot of control with those limits, but
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: the disclosure piece is important.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because what, what, what that does is it discloses
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: funders and people who are involved in the campaign that
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: then just that outlines financial relationships that you have with
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: people that then influence conflict of interest disclosure, which is
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: absolutely required as a trustee. So those things all feed
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: each other. And so that's where that becomes helpful. Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: So you've gotten into already some of the questions that
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: people should be asked. How is your campaign funded for
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: the reasons that you mentioned? We want to understand why
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: is the person funding you and what are their expectations afterwards?
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: And so people for Public Ed Manitoba, which is a
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: public advocacy group that I am involved in and Justin
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: was when he was in the province and you have
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: previously supported as well. We've come up with a list
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: of questions. How is your campaign funded being the first?
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: I'm going to read the others because I think that
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: if people do listen to this episode in advance of
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: the school trustee elections, I would want them asking these questions.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: And then I'm going to ask you, do you think
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: there's one that's crucial to add to the list? So
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: how is your campaign funded is number one. How will
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: you support the well-being of students, teachers and education workers
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: within schools is the second. How will you work to
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: ensure safe and inclusive schools for 2SLGBTQIA plus students and
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: staff is the third. Fourth, how will you reduce barriers
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: for students experiencing poverty? Fifth, how will you work to
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: support student learning? Sixth, do you support public education? Which
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: is a basic question, but we found that some of
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: these candidates are interested in actually privatizing and taking down
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: public education. And finally, How do you intend to meet
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: the calls to action and pursue reconciliation as a school trustee?
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: Is there a question that you would ask a trustee
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: in your ward or that you wish you'd been asked? Hmm.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: This really does cover when we're talking about transparency and
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: when we're talking about intent and we're talking about understanding why,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: how and what a trustee hopes to behave like. I
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: think this covers the gamut of triggers I would be
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: most interested in hearing about. I don't have anything to
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: add to these. These are big questions, Shannon. Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of the time, so maybe I
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: would add one now that I say that.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: I would ask potential candidates if they could identify habits
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: How they engage in this role and what that looks like.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: And the reason I would ask that is not because
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I want them to pass or fail a skill testing question,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: but because I'd like to prompt an interrogation of what
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: the role actually is. Because a lot of folks come
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: in thinking they're going to be making operational decisions. That
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: is not the case. Not the intent. And we are
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: elected officials. We are not being hired into positions as experts.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: We are being elected as representatives from our community. So
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: we have this governance lane. where there is so much
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: opportunity to impact, to have an impact, to change, but
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: you have to understand where that is and what that
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: looks like and or be committed to learning what that
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: looks like. Because we are not education leaders necessarily. We
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: are not necessarily financial experts. We are not necessarily any
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: of the things that are required to deliver excellent programming.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: But we are community members and we are responsible to
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: ensure that we constantly hear those community member voices and
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: translate that into where we have impact, which is policy
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: and budget. So really, do you understand what your role is?
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Do you understand what that is? Because the second you
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: understand that, then the opportunities open up into how you
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: can really dive into that and make the most of
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: what that is. rather than wasting your time doing things
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: that you're not supposed to be doing and get you
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: in trouble. Yeah.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: Thank you for that. Well, hopefully we will get to
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: ask candidates these questions. There is one question I forgot
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: to ask you earlier, maybe a bit more of a
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: fun one as we leave. What surprised you most about
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: being a school trustee?
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: It kind of speaks to the lanes that I was
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: referring to before. a lot of the language that we
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: received right when we first started. So when we were
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: sworn in and what MSBA delivered to us was like,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: this is your lane, stay in your lane. This is
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: your role. And I was like, okay, message received, got it.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: But I don't know, it was like, they seem to
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: be talking about this a lot. It's like, we're not dumb.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Like we know how to hear these things. And then
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: I realized why a lot of people don't understand. what
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: the role is and where we can thrive and where
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: we have all of this opportunity. And so that was
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: a surprise to me that lots of folks didn't understand
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: and or that the community didn't understand. keep going back
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: that that uh separation there between what was expected and
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: and what what we actually where we actually live so
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: that was a bit of a surprise for me but
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: also um the training on that and we figured it out.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: And like I said, it's a beautiful space to be in,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: to be able to talk to communities and translate that
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: into culture and policy and these big things that help
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: guide our administration. It's a beautiful space to be in
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: if you accept that piece. Yeah, accept that role.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Tamara, thank you so much for joining us today. It's
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: been a real privilege to learn from like a real
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: school trustee to hear from an elected official working within
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: a system that I'll only speak for myself here, that
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: I believe so much in. And at the same time,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: there's so much that we can make better along lines
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: of just straight up funding around equity, around representation, access, inclusion,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: all of these issues. And so we're really appreciative of
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: the time that you've taken to be with us and
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: to share with us today.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you for including me in the conversation.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Well, Shannon, coming out of that conversation with Tamara, can
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: I make a prediction that you'll want to probably talk
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: about educational finance at some point in your reflection?
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good. I like guessing what each other is
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: going to say. Like, do we know each other well
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: enough now to know exactly what the other person is
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: going to say?
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Take it away.
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the two biggest things was school fees
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: and the need to solicit external funding. Those were the two.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: And I found those to be the most complex, perhaps
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: even uncomfortable in spots, parts of the conversation, because on
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: the one hand, school boards do, quote unquote, need to
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: collect school fees. The only thing they could do is
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: as a school board, refuse to collect school fees. But
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: as Tamara's pointing out, like they are not given enough money.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: So if you're not given enough money to run schools,
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: it puts you in a place where you have to
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: do unethical things. Things that you know are unethical, like
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: collecting school fees, like soliciting external funding, which can put
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: you in the need to ask, which places you in
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: a position where what is required of said asking. And
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: there's also the, well, maybe the first year we get
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: funding from this group, there are no strings attached.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: But then we.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: in year two and year three can no longer continue
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: without the funding from those groups. And now they're imposing strings.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: So year one, there may be no strings. Now that
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: we're dependent on that funding year two and year three,
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: those groups get to add strings. So I found the
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: financing part of the conversation, like we're coming from the
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: view that all school fees are unethical. There's no ethical
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: way to do it. I don't care how nicely you
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: do it, where you make it as polite as possible
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: for the kid that can't pay. That's not the solution.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: The solution is that schools no longer require school fees.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: And so then how is a school trustee, are you
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: faced with a decision where you're always making an unethical decision?
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: So that would be my thoughts.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to build on both of those, like
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: external funding and school fees. We're on the same wavelength here.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: To school fees, you asked a question during the conversation earlier.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: that I actually had the wrong impression of. I had
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: the wrong impression of who is responsible for administering school fees.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: I thought that they were just the purview of individual schools,
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: that it was admin at each site who decides on
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: school fees and like, yeah, that's part of the process,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: but it's the school board that approves it, that they're
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: the ones who pass the budget, just like Tamara said.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: And then the more I think about that, the more
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: frustrated I become because school fees are are unethical. They're
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: a form of privatization that we're just conditioned into accepting.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: And so rather than funding public education to the level
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: that's required for it to be equitable, accessible, and offer
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: equal opportunities, we grossly underfund it. And then we download
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: the costs of that onto families through fees. School boards, again,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: are responsible for that. which I find really disappointing. And like,
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: we get the financial pinch that school administrators are subject
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: to and wild, but they feel the need to charge
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: these fees. And maybe this is idealistic or naive, but
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: how come there's not more action from elected school trustees
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: on this issue?
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: I think, I mean, that would have been a great
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: question to ask. I think I left this discussion with
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: a lot of questions.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: Not because I felt like the questions we asked were
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: not answered, but that it just led to more questions.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: Like I wanted to know more about how the sausage
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: is made, about how decisions are made about funding. Like
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: I really wanted to know more about that. And I
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: just thought, why can't that be brazenly transparent? If we
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: are a forced to take money from external funders, Why
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: is that? Well, that is because the government isn't funding enough.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: Let's make that in as big a light as possible.
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: School boards are having to make these decisions because the
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: government is not funding education to the level that they should. Secondly,
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: if they are needing to make those decisions, how are
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: those decisions being made? And three, why isn't that entirely
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: clear to all of the public?
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: And Tamara says... that we need, and she uses the
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: word need to work with donors.
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: That's messed up.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not, I'm not critiquing Tamera here. This is like,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: these are larger structural issues here. There's the tension in
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: that underfunding schools plays into the privatization playbook. I think we've,
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: we've talked about, so whether it's trustees, admin teachers, all
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: of us are forced to do more with less, but
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: if we stop doing more, as a form of resistance
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: or to try to demonstrate how the system is being
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: held together by thoughts and prayers, then neoliberals just point
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: to that and say that public education is a failed
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: project and that the only thing to do to save
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: it is to privatize it. So like it's damned if
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: you do, it's damned if you don't. So I'd probably
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: argue that school boards who seek other sources of funding
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: are complicit in the privatization of public ed. Yet if
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: they don't secure that extra funding, students go without, learning suffers,
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: which again is just used to justify even more privatization.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: I'm, I'm spiraling into despair here.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: Well, it's the manufacturing of consent, right? And I think
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: both of us, full disclosure, we know Tamara. And so
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: even us saying, you know, we're not critiquing Tamara. I
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: think anyone that's placed in this position is placed in
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: a position of, do I resist taking money? Or am
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: I faced with the fact that these kids need money
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: in these schools and the government has forced me to
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: manufacture consent to the idea of privatization? And what is
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: my role in that moment? And the role in that
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: moment can be Kids need schools that are properly resourced.
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: And so what I'm going to do in that moment
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: is this, right? Just like teachers every day, we are
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: manufacturing our consent in school buildings for policies that we
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: don't necessarily agree with. It's not about the individual person.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: It's about the systems that they've been forced to work within.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: I think the other one you said, you know, I'm
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: going to talk about funding, right? I mean, both of
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: us are coming from the fact that schools should be
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: fully publicly funded so that they're not forced.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: To make these decisions. But the second thing I would have.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: Wanted to follow up or ask more questions about or
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: wonder like, were Tamara and I even having the same
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: conversation was the idea of the public school ideal. When
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: I said like, here are the five elements of this
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: public school ideal. And I said- The idea of, say,
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: for example, deciding whether you're going to have boutique programming.
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: And then Tamara went on to say, well, we don't
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: really make those decisions. We make decisions about programming. And
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: I was like, but decisions about programming do affect the
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: public school ideal.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: And so I just.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: Wish that all school trustees could read Winton's work about
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: the public school ideal and what that means. And always
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: in every conversation that they're having, Think about how does
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: this decision that we are making about whatever the decision is,
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: how will this decision affect whether public schools are truly public?
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: According to that ideal, it wasn't a matter of like, oh, well, Shannon,
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: you're asking me a question. And I and I can
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: say I've had that exact scenario happen to me. That
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: wasn't what I was asking. I was asking instead. How
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: are the decisions that you're making every day as a trustee?
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: How are you thinking about those five elements of the ideal?
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: And so I wish that Tamara and I could have
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: had more of a conversation about that topic.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: I agree with that. I think we can name two
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: in this conversation that you and I are having right now. That,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: for example, our conversation with Sachin Maharaj recently on school boards.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: Sachin is a researcher who is, in a sense, somewhat external, literally,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: to a school board. Tamara is currently an elected school trustee.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: And so it changes the conversation in terms of orientation
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: and maybe what people feel that they're allowed to say
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: or how they say it. But interesting how some of
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: these conversations can feel like we're talking through one another.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess as a final thought,
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: I think about just what is our responsibility to do
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: as school board elections are coming up in the province
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: of Manitoba. How do we get more people informed about
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: some of the signal words that school trustees are using?
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: For example, Heather Ganshorn speaks about, you know, look out
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: for things like coded language, like fun students, not systems,
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: which is a very neoliberal thing to say, or some
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: of the parental rights coded language. I just think, you know,
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: how can we get more people informed? interested in the
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: trustee elections that are coming up and how can we
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: make more people aware and what are the questions to
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: ask so those those would be my final sort of
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: thoughts about that i mean i think we could talk
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: about financing of of schools for hours but no one
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: would listen.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: I mean i Anyone who's still listening to this podcast
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: so far, well, we really like you. Maybe you should
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: email us. Tell us your thoughts as well. There are
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: a couple things that I want to pick up. I'm
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: just enjoying this conversation, so I want to keep going
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: a little bit. It's important, too, to note, like that
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: seems like it would be evident that someone who's running
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: for a school trustee in a public school division or
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: district is a supporter of public education. That's not the case.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: We actually do have to ask those questions. Do you
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: believe in the project of public education and how are
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: you going to work to improve it? It's wild that
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: we're having that conversation right now because we do have
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of people who are, not a lot of people,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: some people who are at least are running for school
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: trustee who let's say their kids are in private schools
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: or they're trying to bring their private values into the
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: public education system. That's really dangerous. We need to be
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: hyper aware of that.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: And I really liked Tamara said at the end, what
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: question would you add to the people of public ed
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: list of questions for school trustees? It's like asking them,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: how do they see their role? Because do people see
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: themselves as like, I'm going to come in as school
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: trustee and I'm going to make all of these reforms
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: and I'm making decisions. And it's like, that's not your role.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: Your role is to be a representative of the people,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: not to go in with your own ideological beliefs of
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: what you think should happen in public education. Although that
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: is part of your platform, you're not the sole person involved,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: that you're part of a broader group of people making
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: these decisions that are representing a broader group of people.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: I also wanted to bring up, something that Sachin brought
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: up recently about the notion of language. And you just
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: touched on the notion of language too, because analyzing word
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: choices can help us expose some of the problematic shifts
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: that we're witnessing in public education. In particular, Tamara repeatedly
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: referred to what's historically been called the superintendent as the CEO.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: And Sachin just gave us an awesome explanation of that.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: And again, this isn't a critique of Tamara, but a
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: critique over the last few years in Manitoba and elsewhere,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: superintendents are increasingly adopting this title of CEO. That's not
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: a benign neutral or inconsequential shift. And I don't know
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: who is exactly making that decision. Is it the superintendents
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: who are like, I'm actually a CEO. I want that
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: title now. Is it boards who are placing that title
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: on them? I don't know where it's coming from. And
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: we've seen the same thing just to make maybe a
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: more tangible example, we used to have principal teachers.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: And then they became principals, and now we call them administrators.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: And there too. These might just seem like titles that
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: are irrelevant, but it signals a fundamental shift. And what
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: I think is the neoliberalization of these roles from teachers
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: to business managers.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Totally. And it has an effect.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: I've lived in both provinces now, and the principals in
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: Manitoba are talk to me about pedagogy in a way
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: that the administrators in BC did not. And I remember
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: my very first year of teaching in 2000 in BC,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: my principal told me that I was magic. And my
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: vice principal talked to me about my pedagogy. They came in,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: they watched me do a lesson as often happens in
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: your first year. And then for the rest of the
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: year afterwards, that person always talked to me about my pedagogy.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: That's the last time that ever happened to me in
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: my entire career was in 2000. And that was in BC.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: And I think that these name changes have an effect
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: on the way people see themselves in the role and
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: how people are seen in the role. And it comes
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: at a loss to the education system when we are
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: not talking about students teaching and learning and talking about
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: business and numbers, which is the point that Sachin made.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: And so is that another example of manufactured consent? Us
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: agreeing to call superintendents CEOs? Is it a form of
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: resistance to continue to call administrators principals and to continue
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: to call CEOs superintendents? I think so. I think it
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: makes a difference how we see these people and how
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: we see their roles.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed. One last thing that I wanted to bring up.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: This is bonus content. I want to come back to
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: school fees because I can't not say this. I was
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: a music teacher in Manitoba for a number of years.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: And according to the Manitoba public school fee policy, you
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: can't charge school fees to meet required learning outcomes. That's
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: the policy. But there's an explicit exception in the Manitoba
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: public school fee policy for musical instruments. And I know
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: it's super frustrating. And so quick story in one of
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: the schools I was in, students have to pick between
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: two music options in grade seven. It was either guitar
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: or band, but they had to pay a fee for
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: both of them. The guitarists never went home. They weren't
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: for personal use at home. It was totally in the classroom.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: These classes were during the timetable and they had to
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: pay the fee. Why is it that we've carved out
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: exceptions for things like this? And how does that maybe
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: speak to the importance within the system of the back
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: to basics?
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: Whereas arts and other things are once again, marginalized. That's
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: my own.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: No, but it's exactly what we're just talking.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: It's exactly what we're just talking about. As soon as
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: you change the name of something or mark something as different,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: it has an effect on the way people feel about
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: the very thing. How are people in music supposed to
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: feel about themselves? And it points to the core of like,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: when you say school fees cannot be charged for things
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: that are core to education. Well, isn't everything core to education? Like,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: how are we defining that?
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: There's lots here. I'm sure we could go on for
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: another hour.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: Of course we could.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Shannon, until next time.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: Until next time.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you.