Latest / Halo Territory: A Los Angeles Angels Podcast / Joe Maddon reflects on his brief and disappointing tenure as Angels manager

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Joe Maddon reflects on his brief and disappointing tenure as Angels manager · Halo Territory: A Los Angeles Angels Podcast

0:09
Speaker 1: Well, Hey Angel fans, welcome back to Halo territory. I
0:12
Speaker 1: am Mike di Giovanna, former La Times Baseball writer and
0:15
Speaker 1: host of the show, joined by my regular co host
0:18
Speaker 1: Mark Trumbo, the former Angels slugger, and we are honored
0:22
Speaker 1: to have a very special guest today, Joe Madden, the
0:25
Speaker 1: former Angels manager. Joe, how you doing today?
0:29
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. No more special than you, two guys.
0:32
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Appreciate that so. Joe spent thirty years
0:36
Speaker 1: in the Angels organization, including twelve as a big league
0:39
Speaker 1: coach from nineteen ninety four to two thousand and five,
0:43
Speaker 1: before becoming Tampa Bay's manager in two thousand and six.
0:47
Speaker 1: He spent nine years with the Rays, leading them to
0:49
Speaker 1: the Al Pennant in two thousand and eight, before moving
0:52
Speaker 1: on to Chicago, where he led the Cubs to the
0:54
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen World Series title, breaking that franchise is one
0:59
Speaker 1: hundred and eight year championship curse. Joe returned to Anaheim
1:03
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty and spent two and a half years
1:06
Speaker 1: managing the Angels before being fired on June seventh, twenty
1:10
Speaker 1: twenty two. That team was twenty seven and twenty nine
1:13
Speaker 1: at the time. They were actually twenty seven and seventeen
1:16
Speaker 1: on May twenty fourth, before losing twelve straight games, and
1:20
Speaker 1: they have gone two hundred and fifty four and three
1:23
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty eight since, a winning percentage of four
1:27
Speaker 1: to twenty nine. So first question, Joe, do you feel
1:30
Speaker 1: a little scapegoaded by an organization that has clearly not
1:34
Speaker 1: gotten better since you were fired?
1:37
Speaker 2: Oh? My, you know, honestly, when I went back there,
1:42
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back there. I wanted to go
1:44
Speaker 2: back to Anaheim. I had opportunities to go to other organizations,
1:48
Speaker 2: possibly at least an interview for jobs, but I wanted
1:50
Speaker 2: to go back to the Angels because I was an Angel.
1:53
Speaker 2: I grew up as an Angel nineteen seventy five, signed
1:56
Speaker 2: out of the Wichita tournament started the next year uh
2:01
Speaker 2: Quat City's I would eventually become a scout and a manager.
2:04
Speaker 2: Saw it all the way through, so the ascension of
2:06
Speaker 2: the minor leagues, eventually a World Series in two thousand
2:08
Speaker 2: and two, and then just a real turnaround of everything.
2:11
Speaker 2: So I leave for a couple of years. You know,
2:13
Speaker 2: I'm very grateful for Tampa Bay, of course Chicago, but
2:17
Speaker 2: it's like going to Hazelton High School. I considered the
2:19
Speaker 2: Angels like Hazelton High or even Loafia College. Right, That's
2:22
Speaker 2: that's where I came from. That's I was eleventh Street,
2:25
Speaker 2: and I wanted to go back there because I knew
2:28
Speaker 2: what we were like. I knew the kind of player
2:32
Speaker 2: we had, and I thought it was gritty. I thought
2:34
Speaker 2: it was gritty. I thought we were fundamentalists. I thought
2:36
Speaker 2: we played the game right and hard. It was nobody
2:39
Speaker 2: wanted to play the Angels. Nobody and asked the asked
2:42
Speaker 2: the Yankees, these beautiful Yankees of the late nineteen nineties
2:45
Speaker 2: and early too, that they did not want to play
2:47
Speaker 2: the Angels. So I wanted to bring that style of the
2:49
Speaker 2: ball back, and I thought we were. We hit a
2:51
Speaker 2: bad moment. We hit a bad moment. Yes, a lot
2:54
Speaker 2: of There was a lot of things dictated to me
2:56
Speaker 2: within that twelve game losing Street. You know, that was
3:00
Speaker 2: just the way of the baseball world right now. And
3:03
Speaker 2: so I'm not blaming it. I'm not playing it on that.
3:06
Speaker 2: I'm not blaming it on me. We just didn't we
3:08
Speaker 2: didn't pitch well. We didn't do a lot of things
3:09
Speaker 2: well for twelve games. If it's stunk. However, I absolutely
3:14
Speaker 2: a thousand percent believe have you been left alone, the
3:19
Speaker 2: difference in the record between that moment and what you
3:22
Speaker 2: just read off would have been dramatically different.
3:26
Speaker 3: Well, it sounds like there was a lot of positives
3:32
Speaker 3: and then there was losing straight as you mentioned, and
3:35
Speaker 3: I know that you had, you know, done something to
3:39
Speaker 3: inspire the club, and we're you know, it's been talked about,
3:43
Speaker 3: but unable to really showcase that. We're talking about the haircut.
3:46
Speaker 3: I guess the question is was there some relief? I know,
3:51
Speaker 3: and I'm almost guarantee you are someone who wants to
3:53
Speaker 3: see things through, so being let go in the middle
3:58
Speaker 3: of a season is less than ideal. But was there
4:01
Speaker 3: any friction with some of the analytics that were coming down?
4:06
Speaker 3: I know, I know you've talked about it in the past,
4:08
Speaker 3: but as someone who pioneered a lot of this in
4:12
Speaker 3: many ways, it seems like maybe certain parts of it
4:15
Speaker 3: were overdone. The meetings were going way longer than they should.
4:19
Speaker 3: I know as a former player, day to day meetings
4:23
Speaker 3: that last twenty minutes or more that you lose the
4:26
Speaker 3: guys immediately. It's very hard to stay in tune and
4:29
Speaker 3: it seems like you were getting a lot of pushback,
4:31
Speaker 3: So was there any relief you were kind of able
4:36
Speaker 3: to separate from that environment.
4:39
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, you're right. I
4:40
Speaker 2: mean I've been into analytics before analytics became popular, even
4:44
Speaker 2: in the eighties and nineties. I did my own version
4:46
Speaker 2: of it, and when I'm bench coach from Marcel and
4:49
Speaker 2: then TC and and eventually so I had my own
4:52
Speaker 2: version of it up on the board. And actually, if
4:54
Speaker 2: I showed you the work I did in that timeframe
4:57
Speaker 2: compared to what's being done right now, it's very simil there,
5:00
Speaker 2: other than the fact that more sophisticated now because they
5:03
Speaker 2: were able to scout every game, So that was the
5:06
Speaker 2: primary difference. And again, it's not it's not about receiving analytics.
5:11
Speaker 2: I wanted it, and I asked for it, and I
5:13
Speaker 2: and I always post questions to try to fine tune
5:16
Speaker 2: whatever I got, whether uh, you know, with the rays
5:19
Speaker 2: and then eventually with the cubbies, I was, you know,
5:21
Speaker 2: I have questions, and yeah, I did question a lot
5:24
Speaker 2: of what was given to me, because your eyeballs don't lie,
5:27
Speaker 2: and then sometimes they do, you know, and you have to,
5:29
Speaker 2: like you make a suggestion, or you make a statement
5:31
Speaker 2: and they give you like a piece of paper with
5:34
Speaker 2: some numbers on you. Oh, oh, I was wrong. I
5:37
Speaker 2: saw it differently so that it works both ways. But
5:40
Speaker 2: with the with the angels, Yeah, I just I want stuff.
5:44
Speaker 2: I want information. Give it me, all give it to me,
5:46
Speaker 2: All give it. Give it to me by three o'clock
5:47
Speaker 2: and you after. I prefer it. Like in the morning,
5:49
Speaker 2: I went the Cubbies, I got a PDF in the
5:52
Speaker 2: morning with all the stuff. I would sit in a
5:54
Speaker 2: coffee shop on chest it right down from the water Town,
5:57
Speaker 2: Chicago little Cuban coffee shop with my headphones and my
6:01
Speaker 2: iPad and I would I would do everything. And they
6:03
Speaker 2: had they also had an app called Ivy that the
6:08
Speaker 2: Cubs had this thing with this I could have. I
6:10
Speaker 2: could have previewed any batter, any picture in any game
6:14
Speaker 2: for the last couple of years if I because I
6:17
Speaker 2: wanted to see when they when they gave me a number,
6:19
Speaker 2: a matrix number on a hitter versus a pitcher, I
6:21
Speaker 2: wanted to see why, and you know, like the swing,
6:24
Speaker 2: plane of his swing, the shape of the pitch. All
6:28
Speaker 2: these different things were important to me, and especially when
6:30
Speaker 2: I didn't know anybody with my own eyeballs. So uh, yes,
6:34
Speaker 2: they became too intrusive. I don't like people in my office. Shoot,
6:38
Speaker 2: even an hour before the game, when I was in
6:39
Speaker 2: internim manager there with Billy Vivasi, I told Billy, I said,
6:42
Speaker 2: I don't want anybody in the office an hour before
6:43
Speaker 2: the game. I'm getting ready. I don't need any more interference.
6:47
Speaker 2: I don't need any more information unless I ask for it.
6:50
Speaker 2: You've already given me all you got, so that's it.
6:53
Speaker 2: So I think with the front offices need to understand
6:56
Speaker 2: now and analytical departments. There's got to be a timeframe
6:58
Speaker 2: where you are permitted downstairs to a certain time. I'm
7:01
Speaker 2: saying two thirty maybe three o'clock at the most, and
7:04
Speaker 2: then after that go back to your offices, go back,
7:06
Speaker 2: start accumulating more information. You don't belong in a clubhouse.
7:09
Speaker 2: You don't belong in a room, a meeting room right
7:12
Speaker 2: next to the coaches room. You don't belong there. Sorry,
7:14
Speaker 2: but you don't. You have a job to do, and
7:16
Speaker 2: we have a job to do. And when everybody does
7:19
Speaker 2: their jobs separately and well, good things occur. But when
7:23
Speaker 2: groups want to impose on other people's jobs, that's when
7:28
Speaker 2: things start to break down. And that's what's going on
7:30
Speaker 2: in the modern game right now. Joe.
7:34
Speaker 1: It's as angel fans know all too well. It's been
7:37
Speaker 1: a decade of futility for them, ten straight losing seasons.
7:41
Speaker 1: Now they haven't reached the playoffs since twenty fourteen. Two
7:47
Speaker 1: part question extremely loaded. Why have they been so bad
7:51
Speaker 1: for so long? And how do they turn this thing around?
7:55
Speaker 2: Well, I think part of it is, and I think
7:57
Speaker 2: Mark could attest to this. The infrastructure is not good.
8:00
Speaker 2: I'm just talking about basically the facilities at Anaheim Stadium,
8:04
Speaker 2: the facilities in Mesa or testis Me, Tempe, which got
8:09
Speaker 2: better by just moving from the ballpark upstairs. Eventually the
8:13
Speaker 2: major league team took over the minor league facilities, which
8:16
Speaker 2: was backwards to begin with. So there's part of the
8:19
Speaker 2: infrastructure itself. However, I will defend once we got downstairs
8:23
Speaker 2: to the minor league spring training complex, which was at
8:28
Speaker 2: one time, like I said, the Major League was less
8:31
Speaker 2: than it became better. I'm not denying that. But you
8:34
Speaker 2: walk in Anaheim Stadium, in the locker room itself, and
8:36
Speaker 2: the way everything is set up, it's just if you
8:38
Speaker 2: look at their weight room and training abilities. They're batting cages,
8:42
Speaker 2: all that stuff, compared to I mean I was with
8:45
Speaker 2: the Cubbies. I mean the Cubs were the big leagues
8:48
Speaker 2: of the big leagues. That's just quite frankly, that's what
8:51
Speaker 2: they are. And I can't I mean, when it comes
8:53
Speaker 2: down to money, amount of money you have and how
8:56
Speaker 2: much you want to spend, don't just focus on bright set,
9:00
Speaker 2: sexy objects, shiny sexy objects. Focus on the things that
9:04
Speaker 2: are very non sexy, things that really make a difference.
9:07
Speaker 2: And a lot of that has to do with how
9:09
Speaker 2: you set up your players to succeed on a daily basis.
9:12
Speaker 2: And I think that's where the Angels have been short
9:15
Speaker 2: right down to the locker room facilities. Like I said,
9:17
Speaker 2: the way training facilities, batting cages, masa, everything about it
9:22
Speaker 2: is substandard compared to what's going on in the world today.
9:25
Speaker 2: So I think it starts right there after that. It's
9:31
Speaker 2: just it just arrived at a culture, arrived at a
9:37
Speaker 2: functioning culture and a philosophy of who we are and
9:41
Speaker 2: how we want to do this. I don't think that's
9:43
Speaker 2: been arrived at. There's no set way, which there was
9:49
Speaker 2: in the eighties when I was running the minor league system.
9:51
Speaker 2: We built that fabulously. Look at our record of putting
9:54
Speaker 2: you guys in the big leagues at that time, gets
9:56
Speaker 2: into the nineties. We made a good run. We fell
9:58
Speaker 2: apart with Seattle how we'd knocked on the door very loudly,
10:02
Speaker 2: and then TC. When TC was there, we came close
10:04
Speaker 2: every year. Finally So shows up, and honestly, it brings
10:09
Speaker 2: a Dodger culture there. And I'll tell you what Dodger
10:11
Speaker 2: culture is. Fearlessness. It's real baseball. It's not worried about
10:17
Speaker 2: making mistakes. It's fundamentalism. And that's what sosh brought with
10:21
Speaker 2: him himself. Soshia's main attribute for me was the fact
10:25
Speaker 2: that he was fearless. It's kind of like David Parker.
10:28
Speaker 2: David Parker, Larry Boa, my favorite major league coaches that
10:31
Speaker 2: ever worked with, and it comes down to one thing, fearlessness.
10:34
Speaker 2: They're not intimidated by anything. Social never worried about answering
10:37
Speaker 2: a tough question ever. Ever, so pulled the butner, pushed
10:42
Speaker 2: the butner, pulled the scring based on what he thought
10:44
Speaker 2: was the right thing to do in that moment. Lisorda
10:47
Speaker 2: did the same thing, et cetera, and I'm not here
10:49
Speaker 2: to glorify the Dodgers because I hated them. I hated
10:51
Speaker 2: them and instructional league. I hated their white uniforms. I
10:54
Speaker 2: wanted to beat them so badly. You know, right now
10:57
Speaker 2: Andrew's there, so and Andrew's showed whatever. But I hated
11:01
Speaker 2: the Dodgers. I did everything. I disliked them. But there
11:05
Speaker 2: was a lot to like about them, based on just
11:08
Speaker 2: one word. Never worried about making a mistake going out
11:12
Speaker 2: there and playing, trying to do the right thing in
11:14
Speaker 2: the moment, and if it didn't work out, if it
11:16
Speaker 2: was a good baseball play, so what turn the page.
11:19
Speaker 2: So she's really good at that. So once he left,
11:23
Speaker 2: that's what you're missing, this level of consistency set philosophy.
11:30
Speaker 2: Whether you agree with it or not, it doesn't matter
11:32
Speaker 2: if there's a strong culture in place and people buy
11:36
Speaker 2: into it. If you look from outside and people are
11:39
Speaker 2: gonna accuse it of being wrong or they should be
11:42
Speaker 2: doing this differently or better. But so she never worried
11:44
Speaker 2: about that, and that's why they were successful while he
11:46
Speaker 2: was there. That's what's been missing. That was what I
11:50
Speaker 2: was attempting to do, is to bring back a culture
11:52
Speaker 2: of fearlessness, fundamentalism, playing the game right right now. They
11:56
Speaker 2: even they don't even care about my leagues. They get
11:58
Speaker 2: they bring guys to the big leagues too soon. They're
12:01
Speaker 2: always they're always trying to justify the draft. Those are
12:03
Speaker 2: the kind of things that are getting in the way.
12:07
Speaker 3: It's an incredibly thorough answer, and I much appreciated it.
12:11
Speaker 3: Reminded me of the days at gen Autry Park with
12:13
Speaker 3: Jeter Hines telling me and so, you know, to your point,
12:18
Speaker 3: he never minded the physical mistakes. Aggressive physical mistakes were
12:22
Speaker 3: part of the deal. He wanted you to go out
12:24
Speaker 3: there and lay it on the line. The mental mistakes
12:26
Speaker 3: were another area. You you know, basically, I was under
12:30
Speaker 3: the impression if you were to miss a sign in
12:32
Speaker 3: the big leagues, you were gone. That was how serious
12:35
Speaker 3: that that type of stuff was. The attention to detail,
12:38
Speaker 3: and I haven't seen that for many, well, at least
12:41
Speaker 3: a lot of the last couple of years. One area
12:45
Speaker 3: that I wanted to ask you about this is not
12:46
Speaker 3: so much angels. It's really more broad. But I've had
12:48
Speaker 3: some spirited debates with a friend of mine who has
12:52
Speaker 3: risen to the ranks of a bench coach.
12:55
Speaker 2: In the Major leagues.
12:56
Speaker 3: But but he's told me it's more about the process
12:59
Speaker 3: these days. And I said, what are you talking about.
13:03
Speaker 3: It's about winning. The big leagues is about winning, and
13:06
Speaker 3: he said, no, you're wrong, it's about the process. And
13:10
Speaker 3: I've talked about it on the show a few times,
13:12
Speaker 3: but I think you might be qualified if any of
13:15
Speaker 3: that makes sense. The Big Leagues, to me, is only
13:18
Speaker 3: about one thing. At least that's the way it was
13:20
Speaker 3: taught to me. Were there to win. We're there to
13:22
Speaker 3: win a World Series. Only one team does every year,
13:25
Speaker 3: but that is the goal, and then the minor leagues
13:28
Speaker 3: are for development and the process. In air quotes, can
13:32
Speaker 3: you expand on that a little bit if you have
13:33
Speaker 3: any thoughts.
13:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't finish the they didn't finish the statement.
13:37
Speaker 2: I used to say. The process is fearless, meaning that
13:41
Speaker 2: if you stick with a process or the process whatever
13:43
Speaker 2: that might be, what it means to you, that would
13:46
Speaker 2: then permit you to attack a situation fearlessly because you've
13:51
Speaker 2: done all the right things in order in advance of
13:54
Speaker 2: the moment and there should be some comfort involved in that.
13:58
Speaker 2: So that's where the process means. Kenny Revisita talked about
14:01
Speaker 2: that a lot. Kenny didn't necessarily like that phrase as
14:04
Speaker 2: much the process is fearless, But to me it made
14:06
Speaker 2: all the sense in the world because if I stayed
14:08
Speaker 2: with my process, I'd never be concerned about taking chances.
14:13
Speaker 2: The last part that this they're omitting is if you
14:16
Speaker 2: stick with the process and build these these these building
14:20
Speaker 2: blocks annually, to me, that would lead to a pile
14:23
Speaker 2: of wins because that meant to me that you're you're
14:27
Speaker 2: systematically doing the right things on a daily basis, you
14:30
Speaker 2: were eliminating mental mistakes. That's what I the game. The
14:35
Speaker 2: uh mental physical mistakes have a part, big part in
14:39
Speaker 2: the game. Mental mistakes have no part in our game.
14:42
Speaker 2: So if you stay with the process and build on
14:44
Speaker 2: that meaning that you know, this goes A, goes before BB,
14:47
Speaker 2: goes before c et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, if
14:49
Speaker 2: you do that daily, then that's going to permit us
14:52
Speaker 2: to put that nice pile of victories that keep adding
14:56
Speaker 2: up as the season goes on. So if you just
14:59
Speaker 2: want to focus and rely on the process, it's like
15:03
Speaker 2: it's it's like the analytical world. Analytics provides a safety
15:08
Speaker 2: net for decision making. So if you just stick to
15:12
Speaker 2: the analytics, and it concludes that you don't do well
15:15
Speaker 2: if you just stay with it for a while. Eventually
15:18
Speaker 2: it's gonna work out. The same with these people. If
15:20
Speaker 2: you're talking about the process, the process standing alone provides
15:25
Speaker 2: a safety net for not being successful because I got
15:28
Speaker 2: a process, I'm staying with it, and thus at some
15:31
Speaker 2: point it's gonna work out. There's a part of that
15:34
Speaker 2: it is. That is true. However, when you become satisfied
15:38
Speaker 2: with just that, and that's the that is the problem.
15:42
Speaker 2: My only concern is that I work my process well
15:45
Speaker 2: and there's no real concern about winning, then you totally
15:50
Speaker 2: misconstrued what That's what we're talking about right there. So
15:53
Speaker 2: I think a fearless process done well on a daily
15:56
Speaker 2: basis leads to winning because it leads to not being
16:01
Speaker 2: concerned about making mistakes. I have done my prep. The
16:04
Speaker 2: hay is in the barn, as Kenny used to say,
16:07
Speaker 2: and I could go out there and play you know,
16:09
Speaker 2: balls out not worried about making mistakes if it's the
16:12
Speaker 2: right baseball, if it's if it's right to throw behind
16:14
Speaker 2: the runner at first base with you know, play run
16:18
Speaker 2: around first and second, say for instance, double play situation
16:21
Speaker 2: is still in order. But this guy first base is
16:23
Speaker 2: getting huge leads. It's a great time for the catcher
16:25
Speaker 2: to back pick in order to keep him closer so
16:28
Speaker 2: that we can complete a double play and not get
16:29
Speaker 2: my shortstop killed. Now, if the catcher makes that throw
16:32
Speaker 2: and it goes down the right field line, I'm upset.
16:35
Speaker 2: It was the right thing to do in that moment.
16:37
Speaker 2: Run around third base infield in okay, and this this
16:42
Speaker 2: runner is taking this enormous secondary lead at the third
16:46
Speaker 2: base in order to try to get a jump and go.
16:48
Speaker 2: That's another great time to backpick at third base. As
16:50
Speaker 2: an example, if that ball goes down the left field line,
16:53
Speaker 2: I'm not upset because it was the right thing to
16:56
Speaker 2: do in the moment. And that's where analytics really fall short,
17:00
Speaker 2: because none of that it's taught.
17:02
Speaker 1: Joe, what's the toughest part of the game to coach? Currently?
17:06
Speaker 1: It seems like pitching has an incredible amount of resources
17:09
Speaker 1: and hitting is always frantically trying to catch up, and
17:13
Speaker 1: most hitting coaches are lasting under two years right.
17:16
Speaker 2: Now, stop blaming them, please, you know, if you want,
17:21
Speaker 2: if you want better hitters, either draft them or buy them.
17:24
Speaker 2: You know who good hitters are it's really hard to
17:27
Speaker 2: take a guy that has not really been successful and
17:29
Speaker 2: make him successful in the major league level. Number One,
17:33
Speaker 2: analytics absolutely slants towards the pitching side of things. It's
17:38
Speaker 2: a proactive part of the game. The hitting is the
17:40
Speaker 2: reactive part of the game hitters. And not only that,
17:43
Speaker 2: I mean with the velocity where it is right now
17:46
Speaker 2: and the sharpness of breaking balls, having to commit sooner
17:49
Speaker 2: in order to get your swing started against certain kind
17:52
Speaker 2: of velocities makes it even more difficult. It's just more difficult.
17:56
Speaker 2: It's a very difficult thing to do. So stop blaming
17:59
Speaker 2: hitting coach, Blame your process. At one is somebody going
18:03
Speaker 2: to start blaming the acquisitional process. That's really what it
18:05
Speaker 2: comes down to. When you rely on hitting coaches to
18:09
Speaker 2: take somebody that's deficient. One of the most efficient things,
18:12
Speaker 2: the most difficult things to do is to teach some
18:14
Speaker 2: you know, the discerning between balls and strikes, organizing your strikes,
18:18
Speaker 2: and that's not easy. When we were there in two
18:20
Speaker 2: thousand and two, we won. That was something that I
18:22
Speaker 2: was into. If you go back and read all the
18:24
Speaker 2: stuff that I wrote before then, I was about balancing
18:26
Speaker 2: my walks to strikeouts. That was a big thing for
18:29
Speaker 2: me among my hitters, a two strike approach or really
18:31
Speaker 2: big thing. I called it the b hack, really big
18:33
Speaker 2: thing about what I did as a hitting coach that
18:36
Speaker 2: is not necessarily taught anymore. So when you're constantly trying
18:41
Speaker 2: to get hitting coaches to take somebody who really is
18:45
Speaker 2: not a lot of it's just not ready to be there,
18:47
Speaker 2: keep them in a minor league a little bit longer.
18:49
Speaker 2: Supply the minor leagues with more efficient and better at
18:51
Speaker 2: hitting coaches as opposed to just an iPad or data
18:55
Speaker 2: information or video, because that's really what it comes down to.
18:58
Speaker 2: I want you know I had. I had merv Retman,
19:00
Speaker 2: had Bennie Hines, Gosh, I had so many Bob Clear,
19:04
Speaker 2: I had so many great hitting coaches that I came
19:07
Speaker 2: up with Rick Down and was able to pick their brains.
19:10
Speaker 2: And they're the guys that made me a better as
19:12
Speaker 2: I was hitting coach in my LEAs for seven years.
19:15
Speaker 2: To just rely on data information and the like and
19:20
Speaker 2: consider yourself a hitting coach and that's what they're relying
19:23
Speaker 2: upon right now, to me, is absolutely wrong. Criticize your
19:28
Speaker 2: acquisitional process, go through that first before you start criticizing
19:33
Speaker 2: coaches because a lot of times the acquisitional process, which
19:36
Speaker 2: is where I would want to use analytics more than anywhere,
19:39
Speaker 2: would be in that because that's where you could really
19:42
Speaker 2: comp and compare in November December, look under the hood,
19:45
Speaker 2: what are we missing on this guy? What does that
19:47
Speaker 2: guy have that we're missing? That's where you want it
19:50
Speaker 2: season in progress. Trust me, it is so overrated when
19:55
Speaker 2: the season begins. It's accurate with defense, no question, give
20:00
Speaker 2: it to me. I want in order to play my
20:02
Speaker 2: shorts up against Mark Trumpbell, Absolutely I do, and I'm
20:05
Speaker 2: playing you what It's going to be very successful. And
20:07
Speaker 2: I want where where shall I shift with two strikes?
20:09
Speaker 2: What does her kind of adjustment does he normally make
20:11
Speaker 2: with two strikes? It's there pitching, yes, what is where?
20:15
Speaker 2: What do I want attack Mark? Then the strikes? So
20:17
Speaker 2: what do I want attack him with two strikes? And
20:19
Speaker 2: this is individually versus right head and left handed pitchers,
20:22
Speaker 2: and the same thing on what do I want to
20:24
Speaker 2: play my shorts up? It all goes against rights and
20:26
Speaker 2: left These things change. Everything fluctuates just based on handedness too.
20:30
Speaker 2: So there are certain components of this that are really
20:34
Speaker 2: accurate and I want absolutely, I want give it to
20:37
Speaker 2: me versus what we're doing. But then there is the
20:39
Speaker 2: nebulous part of it. And when you start, like before
20:43
Speaker 2: the game, tell me what relief pictures can or cannot
20:46
Speaker 2: pitch and where you want me to slot them. All
20:48
Speaker 2: the time my starting pitch is the third time through
20:51
Speaker 2: the batting where I got to pull him out. Why
20:52
Speaker 2: if he's pitching really well, why has that not been
20:55
Speaker 2: nurtured in the minor leagues. We've taught the guy to
20:57
Speaker 2: go the third time through and have him understand maybe
20:59
Speaker 2: you got hold back something the first time through the
21:01
Speaker 2: batting order in order to really feel comfortable the third
21:04
Speaker 2: time through the batting order. And how about just emptying
21:07
Speaker 2: the tank in the first couple of three four innings
21:09
Speaker 2: because all I want is elevated velocity with a lot
21:11
Speaker 2: of spin, and there's no pitch ability talked about whatsoever.
21:15
Speaker 2: There's so many there's there's so many discrepancies with this.
21:17
Speaker 2: And then after all, if it all came down to
21:19
Speaker 2: his analytical approach, why would any team be under five hundred?
21:22
Speaker 2: There should be like just one big major league's worth
21:25
Speaker 2: of five hundred if the information is always so good,
21:28
Speaker 2: And after it comes down to the the acquisitional process.
21:31
Speaker 2: That's it. I mean, nobody talks about this stuff, but
21:33
Speaker 2: that's really where it's at.
21:37
Speaker 3: I would agree one hundred percent. I can answer those
21:40
Speaker 3: questions on my personal scouting how to pitch music without
21:44
Speaker 3: an ounce of analytics. Experience taught me a lot of that.
21:48
Speaker 3: Jared and I actually we were talking about going deeper
21:52
Speaker 3: into games on the pitching side and having a third
21:56
Speaker 3: pitch and a word command, which is all that disappeared
22:01
Speaker 3: as catchers set up down the middle now by and large,
22:05
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of goofy stuff going on. This question, though,
22:08
Speaker 3: is about where have all of the ex players gone
22:12
Speaker 3: on coaching staffs. I'm wondering if front offices view the
22:17
Speaker 3: majority of X players, is there a stereotype of them
22:19
Speaker 3: being outdated? Are they not hip to the new protocols
22:24
Speaker 3: with the weighted balls and you know batting tees if
22:28
Speaker 3: anyone remembers what those are.
22:30
Speaker 2: By the way, most really.
22:31
Speaker 3: Good hitters use one, and I was a big proponent.
22:34
Speaker 3: But to each their own. I just don't see ex
22:37
Speaker 3: players being hired. I see guys from the outside from
22:40
Speaker 3: facilities and other places that really haven't earned their stripes,
22:47
Speaker 3: you know, getting promoted to the major leagues ahead of
22:50
Speaker 3: guys that have been toiling away for a long time
22:52
Speaker 3: trying to earn their shot.
22:54
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts on that.
22:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of insulting in a lot of ways.
22:58
Speaker 2: And my biggest concern is who's passing the game along,
23:01
Speaker 2: which you're just talking about with the ex players as coaches.
23:04
Speaker 2: Who is passing the game along? That was so vital
23:07
Speaker 2: to me? And I know I get some kickback on
23:11
Speaker 2: all this stuff where people will get annoyed when I
23:13
Speaker 2: say things like this because times have changed. Oh really,
23:18
Speaker 2: the moment you stop thinking experience, feel and intuition matter,
23:22
Speaker 2: you're setting yourself up for failure absolutely on a minor
23:26
Speaker 2: league level right now, which is really considered kind of
23:29
Speaker 2: almost like a courtesy just to like park some guys
23:32
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and development really isn't part
23:34
Speaker 2: of it. That's why you see all these orchestrated pre
23:36
Speaker 2: game batting practices and stuff starting at three o'clock in
23:39
Speaker 2: the afternoon. Does nothing but tire guys out. These are
23:41
Speaker 2: major league players that are not a ball or double
23:44
Speaker 2: A guys that you're trying to get to the big leagues.
23:46
Speaker 2: I'm so against the orchestrated, choreographed pre game on a
23:49
Speaker 2: daily basis. I can't even begin to tell you. I
23:52
Speaker 2: prefer guys coming to the ballpark later. I prefer less
23:55
Speaker 2: work before. I prefer a arrested mind and body going
24:01
Speaker 2: into a major league game with adequate amount of time
24:04
Speaker 2: allotted for getting loose and whatever study you need. I
24:08
Speaker 2: promise you show Heye does not need these volumes of
24:11
Speaker 2: analytical information before every game. I promise you that's not true.
24:15
Speaker 2: I've heard recently. I mean, like last night at dinner,
24:19
Speaker 2: and I knew this to be true. Like major league
24:21
Speaker 2: guys will go into different cities, former major league players,
24:25
Speaker 2: star players with different organizations, and they'll go in and
24:28
Speaker 2: they'll hang up by the batting cage or be there
24:30
Speaker 2: a spring training for a bit. As they get there,
24:33
Speaker 2: they're immediately told, Okay, why you're here. Please, we don't
24:37
Speaker 2: want you to speak to any of the hitters about
24:39
Speaker 2: anything about hitting and pitchers. Please. I love having you here.
24:42
Speaker 2: It's wonderful to have your great but do not speak
24:45
Speaker 2: to our pictures about anything regarding pitching, mechanics, methods, whatever
24:49
Speaker 2: that you might have. We really don't want that true.
24:53
Speaker 2: This is not all made up stuff. This is true.
24:56
Speaker 2: I recently befriended a lady by the name of Laura Wong.
25:00
Speaker 2: I got some information about a book she recently wrote, You've, You've,
25:04
Speaker 2: You've already, you already know. She's a professor at Northeastern
25:08
Speaker 2: University in Boston. Fascinating woman, and her book is great
25:13
Speaker 2: and pretty much it really comes down to she's advocating
25:16
Speaker 2: for and defending experience, intuition, feel, gut, feel. Especially she's
25:22
Speaker 2: she's defending it, and she's and she's got examples, and
25:25
Speaker 2: it's talked to CEO, CEO, CFOs, all the heads of
25:29
Speaker 2: different corporations throughout and defending the fact that these really
25:35
Speaker 2: do exist. This, this other sense or ability to recognize
25:39
Speaker 2: what's the right thing to do in the moment exists
25:41
Speaker 2: outside of math. And it's a really well played book.
25:44
Speaker 2: It's it's a great read. I actually I'll wake up
25:47
Speaker 2: some mornings and I'll have a thought, write down this
25:49
Speaker 2: long elongated text or email, and I'll send it to her,
25:53
Speaker 2: and I want her feedback. I want to know what
25:54
Speaker 2: she thinks about it. And so she her explanation and
25:58
Speaker 2: her research is so leer on where experience falls in
26:04
Speaker 2: intuition and gut field falls in high level decision making,
26:08
Speaker 2: and how important it is to have that independent of
26:11
Speaker 2: math listens. I always want, I always want the numbers
26:15
Speaker 2: given to me. Throw me that stack, give me reams
26:18
Speaker 2: of it, but just permit me then to call it down,
26:21
Speaker 2: and then permit us as a coaching staff to call
26:24
Speaker 2: it down to the point where we then distributed among
26:27
Speaker 2: our players who we know who can handle stuff and
26:30
Speaker 2: who cannot. Meetings can be laborers and boring. It's one
26:34
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty two game season. You need to cut
26:37
Speaker 2: that time element down. You need to That's it. I mean, everybody,
26:43
Speaker 2: they're all working today being in everybody, every organization is
26:46
Speaker 2: working from the same sheet of music. Because it's pretty
26:49
Speaker 2: much a competition among front offices, probably even more so
26:52
Speaker 2: than it's a competition on the field. That's where it
26:54
Speaker 2: scotten to. So I will argue this with anybody any time.
26:58
Speaker 2: I'm looking for that first group that comes back and
27:01
Speaker 2: incorporates tried and true methods with the incorporation of new
27:06
Speaker 2: data and stuff. But at the end of the day,
27:08
Speaker 2: one voice should be heard in a dugout on the field,
27:13
Speaker 2: in the clubhouse, the manager has been kind of castrated
27:15
Speaker 2: to a certain level, and right now the front office
27:18
Speaker 2: has really ruled the roost. Managers have turned into middle managers.
27:22
Speaker 2: They no longer have the same authority to say what
27:25
Speaker 2: they think when they want to say it and express
27:28
Speaker 2: it the way they want to, because they have to
27:30
Speaker 2: run it through this this sieve, this this of inform,
27:35
Speaker 2: this that that that the louteser extrapolates information down through
27:38
Speaker 2: the bottom that eventually is permitted or not permitted to
27:41
Speaker 2: be set truth. That's all truth.
27:44
Speaker 1: Speaking of managers, Joe, the Angels just hired Kurt Suzuki,
27:48
Speaker 1: and what are the challenges challenges of being a first
27:53
Speaker 1: time manager Because teams seem more willing than ever to
27:56
Speaker 1: go with youth, and and let's be honest, you know
28:01
Speaker 1: they're saving a bunch of salary. What are the challenges
28:05
Speaker 1: of a guy like Kurtsuzuki coming into this situation.
28:09
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it really is a classic contemporary
28:14
Speaker 2: method of leadership, which is control over empowerment. I've definitely
28:18
Speaker 2: concluded that there was a time when I was coming
28:20
Speaker 2: up any job I got, even as a youngster, I
28:23
Speaker 2: was empowered to do my job. Larry Hines was my
28:26
Speaker 2: first scouting director, and tell you what, he was in
28:30
Speaker 2: LA and I was over here and I was over
28:32
Speaker 2: in Mesa. And regardless of that separation, he permitted me
28:37
Speaker 2: to do my job, but he definitely monitored my job
28:39
Speaker 2: every day, made me send in a week's worth in advance.
28:42
Speaker 2: Where am I going, Who am I going to see?
28:44
Speaker 2: I had to write down who the scouts were at
28:45
Speaker 2: every place that I went to, blah blah blah whatever.
28:48
Speaker 2: But when it came to writing my reports, I wrote
28:50
Speaker 2: my reports based on his guidance, like pointing things out
28:54
Speaker 2: to me. But at the end of the day, when
28:55
Speaker 2: I saw Timmy Samon or Chad Curtis or Jackie how
28:59
Speaker 2: or mccaskell or all these guys I was involved with
29:02
Speaker 2: in signing, I got to write my own report. That
29:05
Speaker 2: was my report based on the stuff that I had
29:07
Speaker 2: learned as a player. And then with Larry Luke, Cohen
29:10
Speaker 2: Auer and all these dudes, Lloyd Christopher, all these great scouts,
29:14
Speaker 2: Gene Thompson that I met with. So I was never
29:18
Speaker 2: coerced into putting something down. It was always my stuff.
29:22
Speaker 2: And when you learn how to grow your own stuff,
29:24
Speaker 2: then you actually know things. When you're always appeasing, ameliorating
29:28
Speaker 2: somebody else in charge being that is controlling you. You
29:32
Speaker 2: never really learn. You don't know what you know. You
29:34
Speaker 2: don't really know anything. You just know your regurgitator. And
29:37
Speaker 2: so that's that. So that's part of why the younger
29:41
Speaker 2: generation is being hired without experience. Number two, I like
29:45
Speaker 2: Kurt a lot. Having said all that, we had a
29:48
Speaker 2: great relationship there as a coach, manager, and catcher. He's
29:54
Speaker 2: really he was wonderful to exchange ideas with daily. He's
29:58
Speaker 2: a really good game call. He's a he fearless on
30:00
Speaker 2: the field man, solid man. Go out to the mount
30:02
Speaker 2: and talk to him. Everything was great, All that was
30:05
Speaker 2: in order, all that was in place. First time manager
30:09
Speaker 2: for me, and know what that was, Idaho Falls, nineteen
30:11
Speaker 2: eighty one, twenty seven years of age. I had thirty
30:14
Speaker 2: two players on my team. Eight of them spoke Spanish only,
30:17
Speaker 2: and I was it. I didn't have a first base coach,
30:19
Speaker 2: third base coach, pitching coach. The year of a strike
30:23
Speaker 2: who came into town. Mike Port came into town, Preston
30:27
Speaker 2: Gomez came into town. Warren Spahn was our minor league
30:30
Speaker 2: pitching coordinator, and I guess yeah, Merv Marveless, Murv Redmond
30:34
Speaker 2: was the minor league hitting coach at that time. That
30:36
Speaker 2: was it. So you're in Idol Falls thirty two dudes.
30:40
Speaker 2: We got stopped. Our bus was we're going into Canada
30:43
Speaker 2: eleven o'clock or whatever at night. There was nobody at
30:46
Speaker 2: the border there to check the passports of our kids.
30:48
Speaker 2: We had to spend the night there at the border. Okay,
30:51
Speaker 2: that was the minor league baseball. That's what we did.
30:53
Speaker 2: And you had to somehow figure that out, and you
30:57
Speaker 2: had to work through that. The time that Kachman, Tommy
30:59
Speaker 2: Koch and I was with them. They're going to Eugene, Oregon.
31:03
Speaker 2: Their rooms weren't ready because we drove all night from
31:05
Speaker 2: Boise get there like seven eight in the morning. Rooms
31:07
Speaker 2: aren't ready. I happened to be with them and I
31:09
Speaker 2: went on the bus. I didn't fly because I need
31:11
Speaker 2: it to be on the bus, so I said, let's go.
31:13
Speaker 2: We went over to the Oregon coast. I slapped on
31:15
Speaker 2: an American Spress card, which I listened. I had no
31:17
Speaker 2: money at that time, but I know I was going
31:19
Speaker 2: to expense it. And then you have the Boise Hawks
31:22
Speaker 2: staying on a beautiful hotel on some kind of beach
31:25
Speaker 2: in Oregon. These are the kind of what is I
31:28
Speaker 2: know that's not baseball, but it means everything. It means everything.
31:31
Speaker 2: You have to learn how to create in a very
31:33
Speaker 2: negative situation. So that's the only way I can conpare
31:37
Speaker 2: with Zooks going through is I got to go back
31:39
Speaker 2: to eighty one with Dicky Schofield, Devon White. Those are
31:43
Speaker 2: my big guys on that team and what that was like.
31:48
Speaker 2: No pitching coach, no First Bay coach, no throwing regular BP,
31:51
Speaker 2: throwing extra whatever. So that's the difference. And then when
31:56
Speaker 2: you do do that, you grew up knowing what you know.
31:59
Speaker 2: I used that phrase, but it's true's you can't be
32:02
Speaker 2: a regurgitator. There's too many regurgitators in the game. People
32:05
Speaker 2: really don't know truly what they think they know, or
32:08
Speaker 2: that what they regurgitators say because they haven't lived it.
32:11
Speaker 2: And so when I say it's kind of insulting, I'm
32:14
Speaker 2: not hammering whomever is in that position. I want Zooke
32:17
Speaker 2: to be successful. I want the fellow Vidello I want
32:21
Speaker 2: to be I want all these guys to be successful.
32:23
Speaker 2: But if you're asking me honestly what I think about it.
32:26
Speaker 2: If I retrace my history and I knew how important
32:28
Speaker 2: all these steps were to me, I could never have
32:31
Speaker 2: helped the Cubs win the World Series.
32:32
Speaker 3: Never Idaho falls the old ballpark what.
32:37
Speaker 2: A correct Absolutely, but.
32:41
Speaker 3: There were many of those and you had to fight
32:44
Speaker 3: your way out of it. Are you saying that often
32:47
Speaker 3: heard if you don't like it, get better?
32:51
Speaker 2: Uh?
32:52
Speaker 3: And you've already answered this all pivot a little bit.
32:56
Speaker 3: Instructionally we used to and I think maybe you were
32:59
Speaker 3: part of this, have to write down if you were
33:01
Speaker 3: an adder, a subtractor, or a neutral. If you weren't
33:06
Speaker 3: part of that, you probably might agree with it. But
33:07
Speaker 3: it was self evaluating for minor league players, and I
33:10
Speaker 3: was quit neutral for I was talking to Aplora's the
33:13
Speaker 3: other day about it. Hopefully you know, people thought I
33:17
Speaker 3: wasn't too delusional. At one point I did think I
33:19
Speaker 3: turned the corner and maybe was capable of putting adder.
33:22
Speaker 3: But that was part of the cultural stuff that I
33:25
Speaker 3: saw coming up that you needed to sometimes be very honest,
33:29
Speaker 3: and I think that's the feedback that always helped me
33:31
Speaker 3: the most, was brutally honest feedback. Even how you speak
33:35
Speaker 3: to people and come off Apparently I was came off
33:38
Speaker 3: as a know it all, and Craig gray Beck, in
33:42
Speaker 3: no uncertain terms told me to figure it out and
33:44
Speaker 3: change that. And it seems in the game now that
33:48
Speaker 3: is very unlikely to happen. Players don't want the tough criticism.
33:54
Speaker 3: I think there's a fear they're going to, you know,
33:57
Speaker 3: curl up and disappear on you. And it seems like
34:00
Speaker 3: a very challenging time to manage personalities, and especially with
34:05
Speaker 3: your background and you know, experiencing those tough places to
34:09
Speaker 3: fight your way out of, and now this culture at least,
34:13
Speaker 3: you know, in my opinion, it's I don't want to
34:15
Speaker 3: say soft, but it's different.
34:18
Speaker 2: If I tell you the truth, you might not like
34:20
Speaker 2: me for a week or ten days. If I like
34:23
Speaker 2: to you, you're gonna hate me forever. I recently went
34:26
Speaker 2: back to the Cubs convention, right we were celebrating twenty sixteen,
34:31
Speaker 2: and you know, I didn't know what to expect overall.
34:34
Speaker 2: I mean, I knew it was gonna be a celebration.
34:36
Speaker 2: It was gonna be happy, the fans are going to
34:37
Speaker 2: be great. It was absolutely jammed. It was tremendous. But
34:41
Speaker 2: the part of it. That really overwhelmed me were conversations
34:44
Speaker 2: individual with players from that team. You know, guys that
34:47
Speaker 2: maybe I was a little bit hard with than twenty sixteens.
34:50
Speaker 2: Were guys maybe that I did not concede to all
34:52
Speaker 2: the time, and that stood my ground. These guys came
34:56
Speaker 2: up to me during this time and we're absolutely blew
35:00
Speaker 2: me away in a magnificent way, and I conceded that
35:04
Speaker 2: I was right and maybe they were wrong. And that
35:06
Speaker 2: to me is like, that's the validation if you're looking for,
35:09
Speaker 2: which I never do. But if you are, all that
35:12
Speaker 2: tells you is like, just keep doing what you're doing,
35:14
Speaker 2: which I'm more than likely I would. But when you
35:18
Speaker 2: hear it from some really you know, good players too.
35:21
Speaker 2: I'm not just talking about bench guys. I'm talking about
35:23
Speaker 2: some guys. And so when your stuff is validated, and
35:27
Speaker 2: happened with the race too. After I left the race,
35:29
Speaker 2: I got that kind of feedback from the guys with
35:32
Speaker 2: the race too. So I thought about this several years
35:36
Speaker 2: ago in the phrase I just gave you. If I
35:38
Speaker 2: tell you, excuse me, If I tell you the truth,
35:41
Speaker 2: you might not like me for a little bit. But
35:43
Speaker 2: if I lie to you, you're gonna hate me forever.
35:45
Speaker 2: So I like, Okay, what's the best coach? What's the
35:49
Speaker 2: best major league coach? I feel again the word fearless
35:52
Speaker 2: major league coach. The guy that's able to have tough conversations,
35:55
Speaker 2: that is a great major league coach. He doesn't have
35:58
Speaker 2: to have a PhD or whatever in hitting or pitching
36:01
Speaker 2: or whatever. If he shows up every day, works hard,
36:04
Speaker 2: and he is an open communicator and speaks freely and
36:07
Speaker 2: openly and honestly with my players, this guy's a good
36:10
Speaker 2: coach because that's what you need. You don't need to dissemble,
36:14
Speaker 2: don't take the truth and soften it up or make
36:17
Speaker 2: it appealing to him whatever you're speaking with now, Honesty
36:20
Speaker 2: without compassion could equal cruelty. But that has to happen
36:23
Speaker 2: outside of the athletic world or professional sports. That happens
36:26
Speaker 2: with the fifth grader. You know, if I'm talking to
36:28
Speaker 2: my daughter, or it's you know, somebody from outside. We're
36:32
Speaker 2: talking professional baseball players. So honesty without compassion equals cruelty
36:39
Speaker 2: knowing your audience. But when it comes to professional sports,
36:42
Speaker 2: if you don't have it, grow some thick skin. There's
36:44
Speaker 2: got to be a supplement for that. There's a supplement
36:46
Speaker 2: for everything else. My best coaches were the duce that
36:50
Speaker 2: shot me straight, no doubt, and I had some tough
36:53
Speaker 2: coaches starting in June midget football, the high school football,
36:56
Speaker 2: to college football to baseball and the mind bus Stuben
37:01
Speaker 2: Bob Clear, dude, if you don't want to hear it,
37:04
Speaker 2: don't ask the question, because it's coming unfiltered, man, and
37:07
Speaker 2: it's coming right between your eyeballs. That's still the best
37:10
Speaker 2: method of communication I'm talking about. On a professional level,
37:14
Speaker 2: we do sugarcoat it too much. Best coaches are Brian Butterfield,
37:18
Speaker 2: stud absolute stud you know, Mickey Hatcher, Buddy Black, Pepe
37:23
Speaker 2: Ron Reddick might be the best ever. You asked Rags
37:26
Speaker 2: a question, be prepared to have your hair parted if
37:30
Speaker 2: he disagrees with you. And that's just the way it is.
37:33
Speaker 1: Okay, let's turn our attention to the World Baseball Classic.
37:38
Speaker 1: All of our World Baseball Classic coverage is brought to
37:40
Speaker 1: you by our friends at Fox one, which is live
37:44
Speaker 1: stream all your Fox favorites together in one place, including
37:47
Speaker 1: all WBC games over the next few weeks, and after
37:50
Speaker 1: that the best MLB action all season long. Well, the
37:55
Speaker 1: US kicks off it's WBC Friday against Brazil and Houston
38:00
Speaker 1: and Joe. I've seen some players on this year's team
38:03
Speaker 1: calling this group the quote best collection of US talent
38:06
Speaker 1: ever assembled. Knowing Mike Trout as you do, how do
38:10
Speaker 1: you how much does this burn Mike Trout, who is
38:13
Speaker 1: the captain of the last WBC team, Knowing he's not
38:17
Speaker 1: a part.
38:17
Speaker 2: Of this, Well, there's got to be a part of him,
38:21
Speaker 2: absolutely that's got to be upset about it. But there's
38:23
Speaker 2: also got to be a part of that, like, come on, man,
38:25
Speaker 2: I need to stay healthy this season too. I mean's
38:29
Speaker 2: he's already done that. It's one of those things you've
38:31
Speaker 2: already been there, done that. I know they didn't win necessarily,
38:33
Speaker 2: but gosh, I mean, after all, it's about playing the
38:38
Speaker 2: last game of the season and winning it more than
38:40
Speaker 2: it's playing the last game of the WBC in winning it.
38:43
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but I listen. It's it's kind of a
38:45
Speaker 2: cool little gig that we do right now. But I
38:47
Speaker 2: don't get overwhelmed by it at all as a baseball purist.
38:52
Speaker 2: For me, it's about shocking your team into position to
38:55
Speaker 2: get to the playoffs, and like I said, played the
38:57
Speaker 2: last game of the year and win it. That's what
39:00
Speaker 2: we should be focusing on. I'm always concerned about wrapping
39:03
Speaker 2: up too quickly. I am. I always thought spring training
39:07
Speaker 2: should be a slow dance and not not this you know,
39:10
Speaker 2: fast dance or breakdance that it's become when the WBC
39:13
Speaker 2: pops up. So I just think it's wise for them
39:17
Speaker 2: not to be Maybe make him an honorary captain, happen showup,
39:20
Speaker 2: but I mean that that doesn't serve any really purpose.
39:22
Speaker 2: Just let them play. Might you take care of yourself
39:24
Speaker 2: and get ready for the season, and you get as
39:27
Speaker 2: many games under your belt as you possibly can and
39:29
Speaker 2: help get the Angels bright back on the right path.
39:31
Speaker 2: That to me would be my main motivation, I believe.
39:35
Speaker 2: So that's how I see it.
39:39
Speaker 1: From the WBC, through the World Series, to the World Cup,
39:42
Speaker 1: to NASCAR and IndyCar. With Fox one, you get it
39:46
Speaker 1: all live. Start your seven day free trial today. Offers
39:50
Speaker 1: are subject to change. Download Fox one today and stream
39:54
Speaker 1: the World Baseball Classic live March six through fourteenth. Go
39:58
Speaker 1: to foxwe dot com for complete terms and conditions. Fox
40:02
Speaker 1: won streaming now Well, Joe, one of your many claims
40:09
Speaker 1: to fame is that You're the only manager in Major
40:12
Speaker 1: League history modern day to intentionally walk a batter with
40:17
Speaker 1: the bases loaded twice to Josh Hamilton in two thousand
40:20
Speaker 1: and eight and Corey Seeger in twenty twenty two. He
40:24
Speaker 1: won both of those games, with the Rays in eight
40:27
Speaker 1: and Angels in twenty twenty two. How do you reflect
40:30
Speaker 1: on those decisions?
40:32
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, Josh Hamilton could not have been hotter, could
40:35
Speaker 2: not have been hotter, and he would have tied the
40:37
Speaker 2: score by pitching to him. And I definitely, absolutely believe
40:42
Speaker 2: he would have tied the score. I mean intuition, experience, wisdom,
40:45
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, that came to bear
40:48
Speaker 2: in that moment. I know Grant Balfour didn't like it,
40:51
Speaker 2: because Grant was actually a reverse splick guy. He was
40:53
Speaker 2: really good against lefties. But I think Marlon Bird was
40:56
Speaker 2: on deck and had Danny Wheeler and the bullpen, and
40:59
Speaker 2: Danny had been really good against righty. So we just
41:02
Speaker 2: made the move and obviously it worked, and so we
41:05
Speaker 2: put them within a Grand Slam way of beating us.
41:07
Speaker 2: I believe the actual OKCOM would have been so anyway,
41:10
Speaker 2: that falls under the category of dodger Mania, where you
41:14
Speaker 2: do the right thing, and don't worry about answering a
41:16
Speaker 2: difficult question. That's that's really where it comes from. And
41:18
Speaker 2: that was my se When you have a feel of
41:21
Speaker 2: freedom in the dugout, if you feel freedom and support
41:24
Speaker 2: it by your front office, you do things like that.
41:27
Speaker 2: And when you don't feel supported, it's more difficul although
41:31
Speaker 2: I would have probably done it anyway, but it matters, man.
41:35
Speaker 2: That's why it's so important for the in today's world,
41:37
Speaker 2: especially the GM whoever's up top president, whatever that head
41:40
Speaker 2: guy is, the manager has to feel that support. Now, however,
41:46
Speaker 2: having said all that, managers today are rarely going to
41:48
Speaker 2: go rogue. They're going to follow the script. And the
41:50
Speaker 2: script is written before the game, trusts me. So anyway,
41:55
Speaker 2: that was that the second one secret. Now this goes
41:58
Speaker 2: back to prep before the game. Our one line before
42:01
Speaker 2: the game was we're not going to let Corey see
42:03
Speaker 2: or beat us. Right, That was it. That was the proclamation.
42:08
Speaker 2: And okay, so does that mean I backed off because
42:11
Speaker 2: the bases happened to be loaded to I backed off
42:13
Speaker 2: right there? Again, there was easily I could see four
42:16
Speaker 2: points right there. He was hot, dude. When that guy
42:19
Speaker 2: got hot, he was one of the best young left
42:21
Speaker 2: ten hitters I've seen in a bit. And so anyway,
42:24
Speaker 2: we did that, Now we did work out necessarily, but
42:27
Speaker 2: we only gave up three runs and not four runs,
42:29
Speaker 2: and at any if I remember it correctly, and eventually
42:32
Speaker 2: came back and won it. And here's the other part
42:34
Speaker 2: about it. When you do crazy stuff like that and
42:37
Speaker 2: then you succeed, you know what that does in the clubhouse.
42:40
Speaker 2: I mean, the guys absolutely go nuts in a good way.
42:43
Speaker 2: So I'm not looking for attention. I'm not looking for
42:46
Speaker 2: anything other than I'm relying on the years that I
42:49
Speaker 2: spent in the game and my perception, my feel in
42:54
Speaker 2: that moment, what's the right thing to do, my intuition,
42:56
Speaker 2: what's the right thing to do right here? And not
42:58
Speaker 2: run away from it, because there's a tough question.
43:00
Speaker 1: Were you inspired by Buck Showalter intentionally walking Barry Bonds
43:04
Speaker 1: with the basis loaded in nineteen ninety eight? And do
43:07
Speaker 1: you remember what then Diamondbacks picture? Brian Anderson said after
43:11
Speaker 1: that game, I.
43:12
Speaker 2: Do not, but I love Ba. BA took Ba with
43:15
Speaker 2: me to the Rays and I think was it an
43:18
Speaker 2: out right? Was it a basis writer? Was it? And out?
43:20
Speaker 2: I can't remember what happened.
43:21
Speaker 1: I can't remember either next.
43:23
Speaker 2: To the next hitter. I wasn't inspired by that. My
43:26
Speaker 2: inspiration managerially, a lot of it came from Gene Moth
43:29
Speaker 2: quite frankly, and he's another that's when I was with
43:32
Speaker 2: the Angels. Gene never went to or won a World Series,
43:35
Speaker 2: but one of the sharpest minds I've ever been around.
43:39
Speaker 2: Along with Whitey Herzog. Those two guys, to me were
43:44
Speaker 2: the epitome of a major league baseball manager. Was so
43:46
Speaker 2: fortunate because Gene used to give me a lot of latitude.
43:49
Speaker 2: You're talking about empowerment over control. In spring trainings, Gene
43:53
Speaker 2: had me run the butnt plays when because he saw
43:55
Speaker 2: me run him instructionally the year before. I like the
43:57
Speaker 2: way I did it, so I got the sense Gritchie
44:00
Speaker 2: Rodney Boonie and I think Burley at shorts up, I'm
44:03
Speaker 2: running but defense, you know. And I didn't think anything
44:07
Speaker 2: of it. I was too naive.
44:10
Speaker 1: Well, the Brian Anderson was the starting pitcher that day,
44:14
Speaker 1: and after the game he said of book show Alter,
44:17
Speaker 1: that guy has got elephant Titus of the Nuts. Still
44:22
Speaker 1: one of my favorite quotes of all time. And Mark's
44:25
Speaker 1: gonna Mark's gonna close the show with another question. Go ahead, Mark, Well.
44:31
Speaker 3: He's going to say a statement first.
44:33
Speaker 2: Uh.
44:33
Speaker 3: You mentioned Grant Balfour. H I still need a translation
44:37
Speaker 3: on what he was cussing me out. Uh, I got
44:40
Speaker 3: him probably more than me. You don't understand Australian.
44:44
Speaker 1: That's ask.
44:45
Speaker 3: All I could make out was I think he called
44:46
Speaker 3: me a washing machine or something, and Alfredo Griffin was serving,
44:51
Speaker 3: as you know, trying to make sense of it as well.
44:54
Speaker 3: Next day Bob Melvin strangely came up and apologized to me.
44:57
Speaker 3: I know Grant was very very passionate, are nearly every
45:01
Speaker 3: Australian that I've played with. So there's just an aside.
45:04
Speaker 3: But what's a rule change that they could do right
45:10
Speaker 3: now to make baseball more watchable, more strategic. You've talked
45:14
Speaker 3: about Indian's limits, the three batter minimum, automated strike zones,
45:18
Speaker 3: other things. What are your thoughts. Is there one change
45:21
Speaker 3: in particular that you're passionate about you think would help
45:23
Speaker 3: the game.
45:25
Speaker 2: Yes, eliminate a lot of those strategical maneuvers. Three better minimum,
45:29
Speaker 2: get rid of it, bigger bases, limited throwers, get rid
45:33
Speaker 2: of it. Whi's the other one? I don't like three
45:36
Speaker 2: batter minimum, run around second base, get rid of it,
45:40
Speaker 2: don't need them, so it would be addition through subtraction,
45:44
Speaker 2: get the real game back. There was only one rule
45:46
Speaker 2: change that was necessary and it's been proven out, and
45:49
Speaker 2: that is the pitch clock and with that the evolution
45:52
Speaker 2: of the PitchCom where pitches are called more quickly because
45:55
Speaker 2: of the little device. Those are the only two changes
45:58
Speaker 2: that were absolutely necessary in baseball. The other stuff think
46:02
Speaker 2: about it eliminates strategy, and so managerially speaking, it's kind
46:07
Speaker 2: of been subtracted lesson with a managers to think about
46:11
Speaker 2: during the course of a game. So that also is
46:15
Speaker 2: part of the appeal to having a less experienced manager
46:18
Speaker 2: in the dugout, because there's less for these guys to
46:20
Speaker 2: have to keep track of during the course of a game.
46:22
Speaker 2: So get rid of run around second get rid of
46:25
Speaker 2: three batter minimum, get rid of the big base. Number
46:28
Speaker 2: of throwers the first base has nothing to do with anything.
46:30
Speaker 2: It's never been about the length of the game. It's
46:32
Speaker 2: always been about the pace of the game. So when
46:34
Speaker 2: you start messing with strategy, then yeah, you are going
46:38
Speaker 2: to mitigate minimize the abilities of a manager and a
46:41
Speaker 2: dugout furthermore to me. Sorry, boys, I love the National
46:44
Speaker 2: League game. I grew up in the America League game.
46:47
Speaker 2: I'm telling you right now, it's more fascinating, it's more
46:51
Speaker 2: intellectually stimulating. And I know, oh, double Switch would trust
46:55
Speaker 2: me get into dugout, Get in a dugout when all
46:58
Speaker 2: kinds of get a dug out in the playoff game,
47:00
Speaker 2: when you bring in eraldis Chapman against the Dodgers in
47:03
Speaker 2: the seventh or eighth inning, and you move the batting
47:06
Speaker 2: order eight spots in order to make sure that he's
47:08
Speaker 2: going to be out there the next thing regardless, And
47:10
Speaker 2: what happens. You get the bases loaded in two outs
47:12
Speaker 2: and here comes Eraldus to the play and I think
47:15
Speaker 2: it was like three two or whatever it might have
47:17
Speaker 2: been tied, and here comes Miguel Montero. MIGGI go hit
47:20
Speaker 2: for him, knowing that if this doesn't work, I don't
47:23
Speaker 2: know if my bullpen can hold up. Right now, whom
47:26
Speaker 2: two strike pitch from Blanton and Blattin was good against lefties.
47:30
Speaker 2: Blant had that cutter that might have been the loudest
47:33
Speaker 2: home run I ever heard at Wrigley Field. I'm just
47:37
Speaker 2: talking about the actual contact and then of course the
47:40
Speaker 2: explosion from the fans afterwards. There's so many more interesting
47:44
Speaker 2: tidbits in that I'm time listen. This plug and play
47:46
Speaker 2: kind of stuff is not fascinating to me. The part
47:49
Speaker 2: of the allure of the game has been mitigated by
47:51
Speaker 2: all this, and again, think about it. Like I said earlier,
47:55
Speaker 2: Annaly Nicks provides a safety net for decision making, okay,
47:58
Speaker 2: because we're always going to rely on the pregame math
48:02
Speaker 2: to choreograph the game. One reason why the World series
48:05
Speaker 2: was so interesting to a lot of people last year
48:07
Speaker 2: because a lot of the analytics stuff went poom, it exploded,
48:10
Speaker 2: and guys, really the guys really had to manage both sides,
48:13
Speaker 2: and it was really fascinating and interesting the watch. Finally,
48:16
Speaker 2: it wasn't a analytical created world series. Analytically created world series,
48:22
Speaker 2: so think about all that. The best changes you could
48:26
Speaker 2: be would be additioned through subtraction. We didn't need all
48:28
Speaker 2: those things in the first place. All we needed was
48:30
Speaker 2: the clock. And furthermore, I'd like to see a regeneration
48:34
Speaker 2: of the minor leagues. I'd like to see the game.
48:37
Speaker 2: I'd like to see more time spent with the nurturing
48:41
Speaker 2: of players by the time they get to the big
48:42
Speaker 2: leagues that they know exactly what to do and handle situations,
48:45
Speaker 2: handle adversity. Just because a guy hits a couple homers
48:47
Speaker 2: in the minor leagues, does I mean he's ready. I
48:49
Speaker 2: mean there's a complete game to be played out there
48:51
Speaker 2: that's being absolutely abused and not concerned about. How about
48:55
Speaker 2: the Milwaukee Brewers last year, asked Murph. Murph is outstanding
48:58
Speaker 2: and look with the Bluejay. He's actually played a better
49:00
Speaker 2: game last year too. Murph right now as a and
49:04
Speaker 2: I stay in touch with him. He does it in
49:08
Speaker 2: a way that I think any real baseball life, in
49:11
Speaker 2: a real baseball fiction auto could appreciate. That's how it's
49:15
Speaker 2: supposed to look, the way that Brewers are doing right now.
49:18
Speaker 1: All right, with that, we're gonna close today's show. Joe Madden,
49:23
Speaker 1: former Halo's manager, always enjoy to catch up with you.
49:26
Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time. Please like and subscribe, and that's
49:30
Speaker 1: gonna do it for us. We'll see you next time
49:32
Speaker 1: on Halo Territory, part of the Foul Territory network.
49:40
Speaker 2: M