Latest / The Future Herd / 14: When Learning Lived in the Community with Barb Scott-Cole

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14: When Learning Lived in the Community with Barb Scott-Cole · The Future Herd

0:00
Speaker: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.
0:03
Welcome to the Future Herd.
0:10
What keeps a system working when no one is actually in charge of the entire thing?
0:16
That question runs quietly through this conversation with Barb s Scott Cole,
0:22
not as abstraction, but rather as lived experience because what she describes
0:27
is an agriculture as an industry.
0:30
It's agriculture as a culture.
0:32
One that once made participation feel natural, where learning was embedded in
0:38
community and where leadership emerged through doing rather than designation.
0:45
There was a time when the system taught itself, knowledge
0:49
moved through relationships.
0:52
People learned by showing up.
0:53
By contributing, by being pulled into responsibility
0:57
before they even felt ready.
1:00
Institutions played a role, sure, but not as distant authorities.
1:05
They worked because they were close to the ground, translating change into
1:10
something people could actually use.
1:13
What Barb helps us see is how much of that connective tissue has.
1:17
Thinned today, we still invest in innovation policy and new technologies,
1:23
but the harder problem sits underneath how people make sense of change together.
1:29
Without shared values, without spaces for informal learning, without
1:34
trust built over time, even the best ideas struggle to take hold.
1:40
This conversation is less about what agriculture produces and more about how
1:46
it reproduces itself, how knowledge, capacity and commitment move from one
1:52
generation to the next, and what happens when that process becomes less visible,
1:59
less intentional, or less effective.
2:02
Because the future of agriculture won't be decided by technology alone.
2:08
It'll be shaped by whether we can rebuild the social systems that allow people
2:13
to learn, adapt, and act together.
2:18
I.
2:20
Jesse Hirsh: Hi Barb, welcome to The Future Herd.
2:23
Barb Scott Cole: Hey, Jesse.
2:24
Jesse Hirsh: So, uh, the first question I love to throw out as our
2:27
guests, as a kind of RAR shot test on where they see things heading.
2:32
Uh, what does the future mean to you?
2:36
Barb Scott Cole: Oh, I guess it's all the possibilities that are ahead.
2:40
Um.
2:41
You know, uh, if you're a, a follower of brain theory or something, you know, the,
2:45
the multiverse and all that, we get, you know, there's so many possible futures.
2:50
Um, but for those of us that don't live in a multidimensional, uh, world,
2:54
it's the choices that we make to, and I hopefully the choices we make to make
2:59
the, uh, where we live a better place.
3:01
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
3:02
And, and I think that concept of the choices we make really create
3:07
the world, uh, that we wanna live in, I is something that we can kind
3:11
of tap into our conversation today.
3:13
And with most guests.
3:15
I often go from the future question into a kind of personal question.
3:20
I wanna make an exception today only 'cause I want to indulge, uh,
3:24
an interest of mine that I think is really relevant in terms of how
3:28
we're talking about the podcast.
3:30
And that's to ask you to take a moment to talk about four H. And you know, four
3:35
H is one of those organisations that I think for many people is kind of part
3:40
of the fabric, part of the culture, something that's kind of taken for granted
3:45
versus I think for a lot of city people.
3:48
They have no idea what four H is and kind of that when they hear about
3:54
it, it, it's, you really are blown away with the infrastructure that it
4:01
provides, the culture that it enables, the programmes that it's involved in.
4:06
So, I, I say this because you're the second guest that we've had on,
4:10
uh, who is active in four h. And I don't think you're gonna be the last.
4:15
So if you wouldn't mind us taking a bit of a sidebar here at the beginning,
4:19
uh uh, perhaps to personalise it, how did you get involved in four
4:24
H and what does it mean to you?
4:27
Barb Scott Cole: Okay.
4:27
I got involved as a 12-year-old because my neighbour was the four H leader.
4:31
And um, it's just what you did, right?
4:34
That was, you know, there wasn't any ifs or buts and,
4:38
um, I was an outdoors kid and.
4:42
parents told me that if I did some of the four H homemaking clubs, I
4:45
didn't have to take home EC at school.
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So when I got to high school, so I'm thinking, well,
4:50
that's a pretty sweet deal.
4:53
I, I stayed, I I back, back in the day.
4:57
Um, and as soon as I came home from university, I, I was an Aggie at
5:02
Guelph and when I came home, my first four H leader says, well,
5:05
I signed you up to lead with me.
5:06
We're doing a club.
5:08
And that was the choice and training I had to become a four H leader.
5:13
Uh, and I've been doing it ever since.
5:15
And, um, no matter where I've lived in Ontario, 'cause I, I grew up in
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Southwestern Ontario, in Kent County.
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And, uh, then, um, married and moved to Renfru.
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And so no matter where I've lived, I've always had a four H family with me.
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And um, so that's been really fun.
5:29
My closest friends I've met through four H or through junior farmers and,
5:34
because I think you have that shared value system, you stick together so.
5:37
That's, um.
5:39
Uh, that's why it's been for me talking about four H itself.
5:43
It's over a hundred years old.
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Um, it started in the States and came quickly to Canada afterwards, and it was,
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there were clubs designed to make young people better at what they had to do.
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So there was a focus on livestock, improving livestock breeding and
5:56
pro cropping, and understanding better ways and the new technologies
6:00
that were coming aboard.
6:01
And at that same time, in the early, uh.
6:03
20th century, there was a real movement to make.
6:06
Home economics was domestic science.
6:08
It was like really looking at the science of being running a better
6:12
household more efficiently and better food and, and food safety.
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The whole move to pasteurisation and that sort of thing.
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And teaching those techniques to a group of people in an informal setting.
6:23
And if you go back.
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In the early, uh, 20th century, a lot of people never finished high school.
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They were lucky to, to get a few years of elementary school in.
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And so by having these small local groups where you could learn, 'cause people
6:35
passionately wanted to learn, um, how to do things better and socialise as well.
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That I think that's why four H really took off in Ontario.
6:44
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and as an aside, my mom, uh, finished high school
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and back then that was grade 11.
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So, you know, we, we, we think about high school differently now than
6:56
it was in previous generations.
6:57
I think.
6:57
Because there was more applied learning on the job and, and as part of work.
7:02
But you, you said something there I kind of want to tease out, which is, you know,
7:06
the model of leadership that is on the one hand kind of assumed the way, you
7:11
know, your, your, your leader is like, come on, you're leading this with me.
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But there's also a kind of invitation there, right?
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Where on the one hand it's assumed that because you're part of the community,
7:22
you're gonna play a role in leadership.
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But on the other hand, it.
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Does feel like you had a, a hand, like someone was saying,
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Hey, come get involved.
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Come do this again.
7:34
I think you take it for granted, but do you think that there is a value in that?
7:38
Kind of each one teach one model where leadership is not just expected, it's
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encouraged it, it's something that is facilitated and rewarded in that regard.
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And I'm, I'm raising it both at the risk of stating the self-evident, but
7:52
I'm not sure that happens as often or as much as it needs to anymore.
7:58
Barb Scott Cole: I think you're right.
7:59
Um.
8:01
My leader was, uh, was someone who continues to be, um, she just
8:05
turned 89, um, uh, in February, and she's still active in her
8:09
community, very, very involved.
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Maybe not so much in four H anymore, but with a community project.
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And, um, and she acts as a historian and public relations.
8:20
She's, uh, a, an absolute going concern.
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And so that, again, that was her personality that was driving,
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encouraging people to become leaders.
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But I also think.
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Um, that really influenced me as well and, uh, you know, encouraging young
8:34
people to take on roles in the community.
8:37
I also was a high school teacher for 25 years and, and looked after
8:40
student council, so I spent a lot of time walking the halls looking for
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kids that maybe didn't think they belonged on student council, but you
8:47
know, if, if they were leading, um, other people astray, they probably had
8:51
some strong skills that they could, if turned the word, the good, right.
8:55
Uh.
8:56
And, and that ask and that noticing that somebody has, uh,
9:02
has potential, I think is massive in, you know, not only community
9:07
development and personal development, but also mental health as well.
9:09
Just, uh, picking that, picking up on that.
9:13
Jesse Hirsh: And I very much want to talk about the work that you're
9:15
doing now, uh, both as a leader, but when it comes to cultivating
9:19
leadership amongst young people.
9:21
But lemme throw a crazy.
9:23
A question at you given, uh, I think the unique perspective you've
9:28
had on how we serve our youth and how we support our youth.
9:32
What have we gotten wrong?
9:34
What have we been failing to do in the last couple of decades?
9:37
And I say this as a very open-ended question, but the assumption here.
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And you're willing to challenge it if you disagree.
9:45
But the assumption here is that we're not doing enough, uh,
9:48
for young people these days.
9:50
We're not giving them the kind of opportunities to your very powerful point
9:55
to take someone who's very powerful at organising kids to do the wrong thing
9:59
and give them the kind of support and attention they need to turn that around
10:03
and be a community builder in the way that we might have done that in the past.
10:08
Barb Scott Cole: I don't know that we did that in the past either.
10:10
I, I think there have been people who've done that all along, you know?
10:14
Uh, because I, you know, maybe, uh, wasn't the, the world's
10:17
greatest student, um, myself, so maybe I have a sneaking sympathy.
10:21
I just happened to get good marks and get away with it.
10:23
Um.
10:26
I think though, and my own offspring have commented on it, when they first started
10:31
playing sports, you, it was win or lose.
10:34
Right?
10:34
You, you won a game.
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You lost a game.
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And then as they, as they grew along, then it was like, well, we're not
10:41
keeping score in this game, or we're not, you know, it doesn't matter.
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You're all winners.
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And that whole, and like it's.
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It's really good, um, to learn how to lose and kindness can happen when you
10:57
lose, and so I. I don't, I learned how to lose in a really weird way, and this is
11:03
a stupid story, but I'll tell it anyway.
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Uh, I was racing in a Sunday school picnic when I was five
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against the nine and 10-year-old boys because I was a competitive
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little thing, no skill whatsoever.
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And I lost horribly.
11:18
Right.
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How am I going to be nine and 10-year-old boys when I'm five?
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And, but I was, I was gonna run and, and I can remember my mom being so mad at me
11:27
for doing that, but I can also remember one of the boys sharing his chocolate,
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one of the nine year olds sharing his chocolate bar with me because I tried.
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And it was, and it meant that he says, you're just little.
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That's why you didn't win.
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You know, and you know, you start to think, okay, there are consequences you
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can try, you can fail and it's okay.
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And I'm really glad I had that experience to, to know that it's okay to fail
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and, and you know, this is what you need to do next time, is maybe run
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with the five-year-old girls, you know, you might have a better chance.
12:01
And like learning your place.
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And I think the same thing.
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I, I coached, uh, minor hockey and minor soccer for years.
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And it's okay to lose, what did you learn in this game?
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What, how did you get beat?
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What can you do better?
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And you have to frame it that way.
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And you know, it's.
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It's not all, oh, you were just wonderful out there.
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No, you, um, actually passed to the wrong person.
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Or no, you didn't hustle back soon enough.
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You know, there, there's a reason why you fail, but you can change those reasons.
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You can change those to why you succeed.
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And I think for a lot of years we lost that because again, and I think it was
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outta kindness, not out of anything else.
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Because it hurts when you lose.
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And I think parents wanna protect their kids from that.
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And, and you know, we became a culture where the participation ribbons, and I
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don't mind participation ribbons either.
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I think that's nice.
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You know, you came out, you get you, you know, that's great.
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But, Again, expecting that and expecting accommodations for everything.
13:03
We're not all going to be good at things.
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There's many things I'm terrible at.
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I say, I keep trying or I acknowledge, I really can't do this.
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I need you to help me.
13:13
Right.
13:13
And that's, that's part of the learning process too, and creating community.
13:16
And if you.
13:17
You do something better than me.
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Uh, like I'm really missing my one student who would always fix my, my
13:22
computer for me and my headphones if I was struggling, right?
13:26
But that was something that that person could be very successful in and feel
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that, you know, I'm, I'm contributing.
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And I think by saying, oh, it's okay.
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Uh, it's all okay.
13:36
We lost that ability of recognising each other's strengths and weaknesses as well.
13:41
Jesse Hirsh: I think you've made a brilliant point, and I think you hit
13:43
it right on the nose and, and I'll use sort of two examples to illustrate that.
13:47
We as a society tend to look at the innovation in the technology
13:52
sector, the way that Silicon Valley has become a dominant industry.
13:56
And their primary mantra is fail early and fail often.
14:02
Right, and they've institutionalised the way in which they can approach
14:06
innovation not as a focus on success, but as a focus on failure,
14:12
as the requirement for success.
14:14
And you're right about pain that one of the privileges, they tend to
14:18
have's a lot of resources, right?
14:20
A lot of money, a lot of staff.
14:22
So when they say fail early, fail often they are coming
14:25
from a position of privilege.
14:27
But the point is.
14:29
Exactly that.
14:30
We've created a society where we're averse to that kind of failure.
14:33
We're averse to that kind of experimentation.
14:36
And on a personal level, like some of the greatest times of my life were
14:40
riding a bicycle and I learned how to ride a bicycle without training wheels.
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'cause my parents were like, no kid, you gotta crash.
14:47
You gotta wipe out.
14:48
That's how you're gonna learn.
14:50
And I think we have lost that.
14:52
I think that that is something that we need to kind of return.
14:56
But you mentioned something that I want to use as a segue to talk about
15:00
your current work now and your current focus, which I'll kind of extract as
15:05
mentorship and guidance and the support necessary, as you were saying so that when
15:12
young people fail, when they struggle, when they are disconnected from, let's
15:17
say, a path to their own success.
15:20
What do we need to be doing?
15:22
What are the environments?
15:23
What are the structures?
15:25
What are the events that allow us to, to create those environments
15:30
that kids can fail, but feel that they have permission to do so?
15:34
Feel that they have encouragement to do so.
15:36
Feel that they have the wisdom, uh, to learn from those failures in a way that
15:41
they may not be able to do on their own.
15:44
Barb Scott Cole: And I think it, it's having the right leadership,
15:47
but I also think that it's the, the mindset of four H have learned
15:51
to do by doing until you've tried something you don't know and like, um.
15:58
I, I canoe.
16:00
I canoe and kayak a lot, but I've never had the opportunity
16:03
to paddleboard this summer.
16:05
And I was on staff at four H Camp and so the kids were learning how to paddleboard.
16:10
So in my supervision I went down and said, well, I'm gonna learn too.
16:13
And they think that that's funny that, you know, this elderly woman
16:17
is coming down to go paddle boarding with a bunch of 14 year olds.
16:22
But, uh, you know, after, after you get past the laughs and like you, you
16:27
know, I made the same mistakes that they did and, but by the end of the
16:30
afternoon I was pretty good, right?
16:32
It, it was a safe place and you know, everybody, it, everybody
16:36
else is worried about what you're gonna look like or you know, what?
16:40
What am I gonna fall off?
16:41
Am I gonna be scared?
16:42
Can I keep my balance?
16:43
All of that's going through all of our heads.
16:45
And when you're learning to do by doing it, it takes some of that
16:49
pressure off because yeah, there's gonna be somebody who gets it the
16:52
first time, right there, there is, and the rest of us are in the middle.
16:57
And you know, and the one person at the last, by the time we've all struggled
17:01
through that person that's behind, it's like, let's give you a hand buddy.
17:04
We're gonna bring you with, Because we're all gonna leave
17:08
this, we're all gonna leave the lake today knowing how to do this.
17:11
And you know that, that, that environment where.
17:16
it, it's gonna be, you know, yeah, we're all kind of nervous 'cause
17:19
you don't wanna look like a goof.
17:21
You're, we're all kind of nervous 'cause it's a new skill if we can just
17:24
create that safe space, but you know, it takes the right adult there too.
17:29
The instructors at the camp were great.
17:31
They just.
17:31
They just rolled with me rolling down with the kids, right?
17:34
They were ones that are, you know, of course you're going to be able to do it.
17:37
There was an expectation that everyone was going to be successful, and I
17:42
don't think that happens in everything.
17:43
And I think a lot of kids have it beat outta them pretty early that
17:47
they're going to be successful because they didn't get it on the first try.
17:51
And, um.
17:54
I, I, I saw one kid explaining to another kid once that says,
17:57
well, it, it takes 10 tries.
17:59
It's not just one.
18:00
It, it takes 10.
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If you don't have it by 10, you know, then I'd worry about it and, you know,
18:06
and I thought, wow, that's pretty wise, you know, from an 8-year-old.
18:09
That's actually genius.
18:12
And, and I think if we have that attitude and attitude and adults working with
18:15
kids have that attitude that, no, it's not gonna happen on the first try.
18:18
And like, don't be afraid, afraid to say, you know, I really messed up on
18:23
this, you know, when I was learning it, but this is a trick I learned.
18:27
Or my 8-year-old friend told me it took me 10 tries.
18:31
Right?
18:31
All of those things are cre uh, create that condition where it's
18:35
safe to learn and it's safe to fail because And it's safe to succeed too.
18:41
And it's great if you can see on the, can succeed on the first try, because
18:44
what did you do to be able to do that?
18:46
Can I ask you that question?
18:48
You know, or are you just naturally talented and cool?
18:51
Cool for that, um, let, let's celebrate that because there's, uh, you know, maybe
18:58
you don't do something as well as I do.
19:00
So think that's the essential thing.
19:04
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and you, you, you bring up I think a really, I interesting
19:07
point here, which I can articulate as a question that only, uh, um, only
19:14
an advanced leader such as yourself, I think would be able to answer.
19:19
And on the one hand.
19:21
You kind of described how an 8-year-old is teaching us about
19:24
statistical modelling, right?
19:27
Because most of us know, we would think, okay, try once, it doesn't work, but
19:30
they're like, no statistical modelling.
19:32
You gotta try it 10 times.
19:33
You gotta gotta page base, 10 decimal, right?
19:35
The kid doesn't understand that.
19:37
Barb Scott Cole: times outta 20.
19:39
Yeah.
19:39
Jesse Hirsh: Right.
19:40
Like they don't, they don't know that they're doing statistical
19:42
modelling, but they've internalised it.
19:44
So here's the question.
19:47
Given that you have spent most of your professional life in some way, uh, uh,
19:54
fostering leadership amongst young people, spending time amongst young people in your
19:59
current work, and this is an opportunity to talk about your current work.
20:03
In your current work, what are young people teaching you?
20:08
Because if the assumption is that as a leader, part of your leadership comes from
20:13
learning from young people, then whatcha learning from them these days other than
20:19
the headphones and the computer stuff.
20:22
Barb Scott Cole: Well, okay.
20:23
Uh, yeah, I, I blame my headphones, not my skills.
20:26
Um.
20:27
So many things, um, especially when you get kids by themselves and free.
20:34
So yesterday afternoon we had our STEM club meeting.
20:38
Um, so I lead with, um, two other, uh, two other leaders and we've
20:45
been picking all the cool stuff in science that each of us like.
20:49
And so yesterday was one of the leaders, um, really is
20:54
involved in plant propagation.
20:56
That's her hobby.
20:56
She makes cuttings of just about everything and, and has a really, a,
21:01
a, a really great skill set on it.
21:03
So like the other leader and I are sitting there taking note.
21:05
Like met and so that where we're learning from each other, but watching the kids,
21:10
um, you know, learning about nodes on plants and cambium tissue and, you know,
21:16
why it would be important to keep knives clean, like the questions they were
21:19
asking, um, were ones that were really insightful that, you know, you're, I'm not
21:26
expecting a 9-year-old to be asking about.
21:30
know, nodes on a plant, you know, and watching them again
21:34
doing, uh, we were doing uh, part of the tomato sphere project.
21:37
I dunno you're aware of that, but some of this tomato seeds are sent into the
21:40
space station and some say here on earth.
21:42
And we grow, you grow them out to see if there's a difference
21:45
between the germination.
21:46
And it's a project that the Canadian Space Agency has been
21:48
sponsoring for the last 25 years.
21:51
And so one of the kids in our club is fascinated by space plants, not so much.
21:58
But to watch the wheels turning that plants in space.
22:04
Was something that he hadn't thought about.
22:06
And I think that's something that, that inspires me, is just watching openness
22:10
to, to bring a new idea in, because I think we tend to get really rigid and
22:14
learning from kids the questions they ask and, uh, you know, what they're
22:18
thinking about and where they go next is like, just a reminder too ourselves
22:22
that we, we've gotta, we can't lose that.
22:25
We can't channel that away and just say, oh yeah, well, you
22:28
know, the Canadian Space Agency.
22:30
Yeah.
22:31
Blah.
22:32
No, it's like cool tomatoes in space.
22:34
Why tomatoes?
22:35
Why would you, you know?
22:38
Jesse Hirsh: How do we organise that?
22:40
How do we take what you are kind of experiencing spontaneously,
22:44
spontaneously via four H programming?
22:48
How do we replicate that so that we have that wonder?
22:52
We have that.
22:53
Uh, a youth perspective, uh, not just when it comes to learning and
22:58
research, but all throughout the sector.
23:01
Uh.
23:03
Barb Scott Cole: Okay, well we had three leaders and 12 kids,
23:08
so you know that and that.
23:11
I'll, I'll get too political right if I in three seconds if I don't, but
23:15
small classroom sizes are essential, you know, small groups of people
23:19
and people that are really vested in youth's growth and development.
23:24
I, you know, I didn't know very few teachers that wouldn't like, would
23:29
rather have a smaller class and have more support in their classroom because
23:33
I'm meeting these kids for two hours.
23:36
Every other weekend, and we have that special relationship and, but
23:41
a, a teacher has those kids in her class in front of her every day and
23:44
knows them even more than, than, uh, you know, you, you know, which.
23:52
lot of things, and I, I know I, uh, as a classroom teacher, I was a, a secondary
23:56
science teacher, but those are my kids.
23:59
And I knew who had breakfast and I knew who had, you know, was struggling
24:02
and I knew who broke up with their boyfriend and, you know, because
24:06
kids, kids tell you that it, but.
24:08
When you have 36 in a classroom and you're trying to deal with all that
24:12
emotional background stuff and then teach how to balance chemical equations,
24:17
you don't have that same one-on-one.
24:19
And that's why the four H model is so valuable because kids don't have that
24:22
opportunity to work really closely with an adult that they trust and you don't.
24:27
And to have the time, you know, if I divided a 75 minute class up between
24:32
36, the kids would get two minutes each.
24:35
At the most, right?
24:36
If, if I, if I just talk to a kid.
24:39
if I have two hours where I only have like, I've just got this little group
24:43
of people, I can talk, I can interact.
24:45
What do you think?
24:47
Oh, careful with that knife.
24:48
And you know it's better to cut.
24:49
Make your cutting this way.
24:51
You know, we're planning these tomato seeds to have you make,
24:53
you know, have you done that?
24:54
I, I've got time to check.
24:56
But if you're, we're mass producing a bunch of kids through a classroom.
25:00
We don't have that time for that, that little bit of contact.
25:03
And I, I think that if you were going to foster it, like when I, I look
25:08
at small group success, it's so much higher than that, than large groups,
25:14
just simply because of the time factor.
25:17
Jesse Hirsh: Although you evoke something else with that ratio
25:20
of like three adults and uh, 12 kids that we clearly need to have.
25:25
Way more young people on the boards of agricultural organisations and
25:30
in leadership positions in AgriFood organisations, not so much because they
25:36
will be there to provide the leadership, but to your point, to be outnumbered
25:40
by young people is, uh, uh, not a bad situation to be in when it comes to
25:46
fostering, uh, leadership skills and the kind of responsibility, uh, we want.
25:50
These young people to take.
25:52
Uh, with that said, I'd love to hear more about the camp that you were at recently
25:58
and the other different programmes that you kind of have a hand in or are
26:02
participating in as part of the, the larger four H work that you're doing.
26:07
Barb Scott Cole: Well, I was at Future Leaders in Action Camp last
26:10
week at Muskoka in, in Muskoka, and uh, there was 36, um, senior four
26:16
H members from across the province.
26:18
Um, it we're gradually coming.
26:20
Back in our numbers with our senior camps, I, we lost so many of the kids
26:25
that would be senior members over COVID.
26:27
Um, the Youth Adventure Camp that'll be this summer is already
26:31
filled with a hundred kids.
26:33
So we've got that group coming up, but right now we have.
26:36
a small group of intermediate and senior members, but what a great bunch of kids.
26:41
I was at the camp, uh, provincial Leadership Camp and future Leaders
26:44
in Action are two different programmes, senior programmes,
26:47
and they alternate years.
26:48
So many of the, the kids that were there this year were also at PLC last year.
26:53
And to see, um, them grow in a year, what they have done in the
26:58
year since we've seen them was.
27:01
Just absolutely amazing.
27:03
And you can see how much more confident speakers they were.
27:06
Um, one of the youngest ones, uh, who came, uh, planned the programme one night
27:12
and MCed the whole event, and it was like, you couldn't do that last summer.
27:18
But now this is what you can do.
27:22
so in the, the camp is really fun.
27:24
The mornings are basic leadership training from dealing with conflict,
27:27
from understanding your own leadership style, um, to speaking to smart
27:32
goals, you know, all the, the basic package of, of leadership skills.
27:36
And then the afternoons they were doing high rope.
27:39
Challenges and, uh, hiking and learning how to build a fire with one match and,
27:44
and all kinds of outdoors activities, um, to burn off a little bit of energy,
27:49
but also fun and socialise, right?
27:51
You've gotta learn to work with people.
27:52
And then the, the kids were responsible for planning, um, the evening programme.
27:58
For everything.
27:58
So they had a chance to try out the skills they had learned each day and
28:02
then provide a, a fun and an inclusive event for everybody in the afternoon.
28:07
they were, they were great.
28:08
They, if they had spare time, they were line dancing.
28:11
So if that's the, you know, uh, you, you know, we weren't
28:15
chasing them out of the bush.
28:16
We weren't worried about anything.
28:18
They were, they were kids that were getting together and learning and
28:22
happily hanging out with each other.
28:25
Jesse Hirsh: And, and a quick two part follow up.
28:27
What is the age range that, that's quote unquote senior and what,
28:34
what happens when they age out?
28:35
Is, is there a a, a, a. A lost opportunity in terms of them ageing out?
28:42
Or is it just a, an assumption that they then naturally become leaders of
28:47
their communities and their workplaces and their organisations, uh, depending
28:52
where they fit within the, the broader sector and the broader society.
28:56
Barb Scott Cole: Well, the senior camps are for 15 to 21.
28:59
Largely, I think the oldest one person at this camp had just turned
29:02
20 because it starts to run into conflict with post-secondary programmes.
29:07
You know, it runs through the, you know, the, the high school March break, not.
29:11
The reading week for most universities and colleges.
29:15
So most of the kids are in grade 11 and 12.
29:20
you, reality, but you can't go till you're 21.
29:24
When they age out, um, like in my own association, we have two
29:29
junior directors on the board.
29:31
That space is safe for two.
29:33
Um, they have to be 18 to be a junior director because of the legal
29:38
obligations of a board structure.
29:40
So we certainly, uh, we've had youth directors for most
29:46
of this century for sure.
29:48
Uh, ever since we made that a recommendation and.
29:52
And that's a, a good opportunity.
29:54
Um,
29:55
Jesse Hirsh: is there anyone who fits that profile that we are not serving?
30:01
Is, is there young people who are going through the four H
30:04
process with tremendous potential?
30:08
All sorts of, you know, go get 'em, but.
30:12
There isn't anywhere in the industry.
30:14
There isn't anywhere in the governance structure.
30:16
There isn't anywhere in the association for them, you know, is, is there
30:20
a supply and demand problem here?
30:23
And to, to what end do we, do we need more young people ready to
30:27
take on leadership positions or do we need more leadership positions?
30:30
Because there's lots of young people who are itching to get in there.
30:35
Barb Scott Cole: Well, I think in ag there's what, three jobs for every
30:39
grad, at least three jobs waiting for every grad from an AG programme.
30:44
So I think there's a shortage of youth.
30:45
Right now, I think we're, we're starting to build up again, post COVID of having
30:51
those youth that are available to take the positions that have come up through
30:55
the four H programme and, and understand.
30:58
I think it's really important, um, for associations to have a youth director or
31:02
have a way that youth can participate.
31:05
Um.
31:07
And, uh, I know I was involved as a, as a young person in
31:12
Ploughman and my local Plowman's association and things like that.
31:16
Um, and you know, there's Junior Cattlemen's and Junior, but there
31:21
are a lot of, uh, organisations, but I guess as farm numbers get.
31:27
It's harder to fill it with kids and if, and with the age of, you know,
31:32
the average age of farmers being much closer to mine than my offspring,
31:36
um, you know, where are they?
31:39
You know, like I, I look at my of a. I have one niece who's got, has become
31:44
really involved in ag and she never thought about that as a career option
31:48
until she took a job and loved it.
31:50
You know, I have another niece that, uh, didn't study ag but went, uh, went
31:55
into ag as well, um, because there was, uh, you know, there was jobs and
32:00
opportunities that were interesting.
32:02
So I think it's a shortage of young people that come from farms.
32:06
and then there's so many other possibilities of careers.
32:10
So, you know, I. I don't know.
32:13
Um, I don't have a really good answer for you for that.
32:17
Jesse Hirsh: Let me ask what might be a naive question, but to your
32:21
earlier, a vocation might be a political or controversial question.
32:26
What about young people who aren't growing up on farms?
32:30
What about young people who are stuck in one of our cities and would love to be
32:36
able to find employment or entrepreneurial opportunity in the AgriFood sector?
32:43
Are there any four H chapters in Ontario cities or in Canadian cities?
32:47
Are there any urban organisations or agricultural organisations that are
32:54
targeting young people in cities?
32:56
Only because to go to our statistics, if one out a hundred, one out of a
33:01
thousand, one out of a hundred thousand, uh, might still be worth the effort.
33:06
Barb Scott Cole: Well, I think, there's a couple answers.
33:10
So Four H Ontario just received a grant to study that the feasibility
33:14
of, uh, more urban four H programmes, which I think is amazing.
33:18
Uh, an amazing opportunity.
33:20
I think we, um.
33:22
The States has done it better than us with their land grant universities,
33:25
and, you know, having four H and future Farmers of America involved in
33:29
schools, embedded in schools, and we just don't have that here in Ontario.
33:33
Um, I also think that ag is not considered, uh.
33:39
In any way, shape or form, uh, as a career option?
33:44
I think it's not presented, uh, as anything anybody does.
33:48
You know, it's just that old guy in his Coveys, you know, and this is
33:52
the international year of women in agriculture, so, or women farmers.
33:55
So I'm quite happy to, to be celebrating that one.
33:58
And my beans are gonna be better than your beans.
34:00
So there, um, um.
34:05
There.
34:05
I think in ag we tend to use jargon a lot.
34:10
And I was at a conference some years back that was talking
34:12
about the jobs in, in education.
34:15
So this was, uh, for, it was focused at high skills majors in agriculture
34:19
and horticulture and, uh, many of the speakers came back to it, you know, uh,
34:24
we're, we're not doing a good cell job in this 'cause we're agriculture and food.
34:28
Actually, you know what, we're, we're not just growing things
34:32
because we grow things, we're growing things because people need to eat.
34:35
And I, we need to be thinking more about careers that way.
34:40
Um, I don't think you're gonna get crowds of people like I did who
34:44
picked tomatoes and, and who, and, uh.
34:47
Worked in tobacco, uh, you know, to, to put themselves through school
34:51
that pet ships kind of sailed.
34:53
You know, we do have, um, technology, like I love those tomato
34:58
harvesters and, and thoughts as opposed to lugging those hampers.
35:03
But you know, wow, what a job.
35:05
If you're interested in machinery, you know what to design and
35:09
maintain a tomato harvester.
35:11
You know, we don't come at kids that way.
35:14
Um, you know, if you're, you wanna be a mechanic, well, you
35:17
know you're gonna be working on.
35:18
You know, the really exotic as if you're going to heavy equipment, but why not?
35:22
Like, why aren't we focusing on farm equipment as a career?
35:25
Or you're really interested in creating recipes and you, you know,
35:29
you want to, to bring new tastes in.
35:32
Well, that's part of the food industry.
35:33
So maybe if you want better tasting lentils, maybe you'd be very interested
35:37
in breeding lentils, you know, that are are better for Ontario regions.
35:42
We, but we don't.
35:45
And again, this, this falls on the rushed speed that we have in the education
35:49
system, that that information's there to give to guidance teachers, but they don't
35:54
even have time to read it and act on it.
35:57
And there's not very many teachers with an ag background
36:01
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
36:02
Barb Scott Cole: to even provide that insight in class.
36:05
Um.
36:06
I was always encouraging kids to, to think about farming and, and to think about,
36:12
uh, careers in ag, you know, that, that they hadn't, but that's my background.
36:17
That's my job.
36:18
If I had come from any other background, I would've been talking about that.
36:21
I would've been saying, you know, go get into tech because, but I'm
36:25
saying get into tech because Wow.
36:27
To have sensors that can grade potatoes, you know, that's something that,
36:31
that's gonna impact me every day.
36:34
Um.
36:36
So I, I think part of it is like when you're less than, when you're less than
36:41
2% of the population trying to convince other people to come and join you.
36:46
And either you're seen as that idyllic pastoral setting or your factory farming.
36:51
Um, there's not a lot in between and there's not a lot of listening.
36:56
And in and in ag we're very guilty of using our own jargon.
37:02
I used to say I was a cash cropper I grow corn and soybeans.
37:06
Right.
37:07
And that's what I do, and it makes perfect sense to me.
37:11
Um, but my, uh, daughter-in-law's parents say, well, how do you grow cash?
37:16
You don't seem to be very rich.
37:18
And it's, you know.
37:21
And so now I say I grow corn and soybeans, right?
37:25
I, uh, I grow, you know, the corn's for livestock feed and I, I sell my
37:30
soybeans to be crushed and sometimes they're exported for making tofu.
37:34
I happen to grow an IP variety, and I have to, and then I have to explain what IP
37:39
is, and then I have to explain, you know, how the whole, um, marketing system works.
37:44
And so.
37:46
Then people start to realise how complex the industry is.
37:49
But it, it took a long time for me to clue in that I wasn't speaking
37:54
it the same language as the
37:57
Jesse Hirsh: Wow.
37:58
Barb Scott Cole: talking to.
37:59
And, um,
38:00
Jesse Hirsh: That's, I think that's a really powerful metaphor that
38:03
a lot is lost in translation.
38:06
That we spend too much time talking amongst ourselves, that we forget
38:12
the necessity to translate our values, our understanding, our
38:18
appreciation, uh, for AgriFood and, and to your larger point, I think.
38:25
I as an aside, um, I would love to, if there is anyone at four H who is
38:31
working on that urban piece, uh, I would love to have them on the show
38:34
because I think what you are addressing here in, in the disconnect between
38:39
how people perceive agriculture and AgriFood and the legitimate
38:44
opportunities that I think a wide range of people currently living in cities
38:49
would absolutely love to be part of.
38:52
They just.
38:53
Don't have the secret handshake.
38:54
Right.
38:55
They, they don't know, you know, the, the kind of cultural connection and it,
39:00
this conversation is really reinforcing for me why four H is such an essential
39:07
part of that cultural fabric of that kind of leadership infrastructure.
39:13
So I, I'm curious if, given your kind of experience as an
39:20
educator, given your kind of.
39:22
Direct and ongoing contact with young people.
39:27
Let us have our kind of blue sky moment here.
39:30
If there were infinite resources, if there was infinite capacity, if the sector
39:37
as a whole all came together and said, you know, barb's really onto something,
39:42
what would be the kind of programmes, what would be the kind of initiatives?
39:46
What would be the kind of policies that would help, uh, uh, enable?
39:52
The kind of opportunities I think you and I are describing and, and an obvious
39:55
one, which I will say just to get out of the way, is yes, smaller class sizes,
40:01
a hundred percent right across the board, but I'm, I'm curious to hear what
40:06
other ideas, what other concepts that you think could be catalytic that that
40:11
could really allow for an actualization of the vision that you clearly have.
40:17
That I, I think we would all benefit from in terms of allowing more organisations,
40:22
more of the sector to to operate in the manner we're describing, even if
40:26
it's as simple as being surrounded by young people with crazy ideas.
40:31
Barb Scott Cole: Okay, manifesto here.
40:33
Um, I think, uh, my, my personal.
40:38
Leaf is that everybody should be responsible for, for producing
40:41
some of their own food.
40:43
If you, um, know what it takes to produce something, even if you have, you know,
40:49
a pot of tomatoes on, on your balcony and you grow lettuce on your window.
40:56
So I think that.
40:59
Is the first step.
41:00
And so if I had all the money in the world, I would have an outdoor
41:04
classroom in every school with a, a growing area to start plants.
41:08
I, I would absolutely do that and circle the curriculum around it
41:13
because it's, it's real, it's hands on.
41:16
Kids like, uh, the, the kids who, who left our meeting yesterday had dirt under their
41:21
fingernails, and they were, they were, um, planting their own pizza yesterday.
41:27
So they planted peppers, tomatoes, onions, basel, and oregano.
41:33
And so they'll be able to put sauce on their own pizza eventually.
41:37
Um.
41:38
And I think that's something that's really important.
41:41
Any school that has had a garden and has had that thing has
41:44
a better connection already.
41:47
And you know, studies across the world have indicated that, you know,
41:50
when the kids are involved in their own food production, then they're.
41:53
Excuse me.
41:54
Much more interested in nutrition and they're much more
41:57
interested in eating healthy.
41:59
You're more likely to eat a carrot you pulled out of a ground than one that
42:01
came out of a bag of baby carrots.
42:04
Um, you know, just because you had that connection to it.
42:08
And I think again, um.
42:11
I in, in terms of the indigenous worldview as well, like we're
42:14
looking that we are all, we're all related, we're all relatives.
42:17
So if, if we are contributing to producing our own food, we are also
42:22
understanding what we are getting in return and then we can start
42:27
to understand, you know, how, uh.
42:31
I, you know, if I, if we had, uh, all my plant waste goes
42:35
out to the chickens, right.
42:37
Or, and, and scraps go out there and so they're contributing
42:40
back because I'm feeding them.
42:42
I get eggs, you know, and, and that sort of small scale farming, I think
42:47
it's pretty doable for just about everybody and to have it in a school
42:51
setting and have that built in.
42:52
Yeah, the smaller classes would be great and, you know, but that whole sense
42:57
of responsibility, I think, you know.
43:00
Victory Gardens back in the forties and, you know, all that sort of thing.
43:04
was tremendous, you know, that that generation really knew how to do things
43:09
because they were doing it again.
43:11
You know, like it's that learn to do by doing.
43:14
Ke keeps sneaking in and you know, you can extend that right?
43:19
Uh, um, for food security.
43:21
If you're growing stuff at school and then maybe you have a day where you're making.
43:26
sauce and every kid takes a jar home, like every kid's going
43:30
to be that much better fed.
43:31
That's going to be something good.
43:33
But those skills don't just come from nowhere.
43:36
And so we almost need four H four grownups to reteach those skills that
43:41
have been lost in, you know, in the 60, 70 years since they've been taught.
43:48
Jesse Hirsh: I would absolutely love.
43:52
Sorry, just briefly, I just want to double jump in and say I would absolutely love
43:55
to see four H for adults the same way.
43:57
I would love to see four H in cities.
44:00
'cause to your point, there's a lot of people who just didn't have the
44:03
chance when they were young people and they would love to learn these skills
44:07
and get access to this knowledge.
44:09
Barb Scott Cole: And, you know, and maybe I'm falling, I I'm falling into
44:12
the algorithm of my social media, but it seems like there's a lot of people
44:16
talking about that too, you know?
44:18
Yeah.
44:18
I, I'm always happily doing that.
44:20
Um, behind the, uh, behind the door here is are my canning shelf.
44:24
So like, I don't buy a lot of things 'cause I have potatoes in
44:30
the basement and, you know, canned stuff in the, in the cupboards.
44:35
And so I, I think about it in a different way, and I've just always done it.
44:40
But as I've gotten older, you know, it's like, well, why
44:42
do I still choose to do this?
44:44
Why, you know, am I not going to no frills and just buying a can of spaghetti sauce?
44:49
Why am I, well, it's usually at about 11 o'clock at night of a day of cooking
44:53
down tomatoes that I'm thinking this.
44:56
but it's the day in February when I pull a can off the shelf and say,
44:59
man, this is really good, you know?
45:01
The peppers, you know, the peppers iger this year were pretty darn, you know,
45:05
flavorful or damn, these pickles are okay.
45:07
Um.
45:09
Not everybody has the luxury of doing that.
45:12
You know, I'm lucky.
45:13
I have the space, I have the garden, I have the skills, and it, it, it is almost
45:17
a luxury now instead of a necessity.
45:19
And like, so how do you do that?
45:21
So if you're starting the, with the kids, which four H did right from the beginning,
45:25
is teaching those skills to young people.
45:27
If we start with the kids, maybe by next generation we're gonna have adults
45:30
that are able to teach it and come back and help you with that, Jesse.
45:34
Jesse Hirsh: Well, it, I'm kind of blown away by the brilliance of the self-evident
45:40
idea of having every school have a garden or having every school have a kind
45:46
of, uh, growing an AgriFood programme.
45:49
'cause, you know, maybe there are some schools where a greenhouse might make a
45:52
little more sense in a garden, although I, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
45:57
But it's also a lab, right?
45:59
It's also an an experimental space.
46:02
Like it's for learning, it's for experimenting.
46:04
And I think because we've falsely thought of agriculture as something
46:10
that is in history, not in the present, not in the future, we forget.
46:15
How central science and innovation is to the way we eat
46:20
and the way we produce our food.
46:23
So I, I think having mandating a garden in every school, having community centres,
46:29
having libraries, have gardens, uh, again as a place for people to learn, as a
46:35
place for people to get this knowledge.
46:37
I think it's a brilliant idea and, and one that really speaks
46:41
to how we've lost the skills.
46:43
I, I, I, I kind of shook my head when you said it's become
46:46
a luxury instead of a necessity.
46:48
I don't think so.
46:50
I think it is a necessity.
46:51
I think we have to return to thinking of it as a necessity, uh, if only so that we.
46:57
Eat better because I think to your point that food tastes better, your tomato
47:02
sauce is way better than the tomato sauce you'd get at the store and, and
47:06
probably more nutritional for you as well.
47:09
Barb Scott Cole: Well, I think so, but again, there's a lot
47:11
of unteaching for people.
47:14
Right, that it's too hard, it's too time consuming.
47:17
You know how many people sit down and eat a homemade meal every night?
47:22
You, you know, even I order p uh, you know, even I'm quite happy to
47:26
call Domino's, um, and have a pizza.
47:29
But we, you know what, what's more important?
47:32
You know, like we have this perception that, that, you know, our, our work
47:37
and our activities are, but you know, you go back to Maslow's hierarchy of
47:42
need and you need food, shelter, and protection from the elements, you know?
47:47
Um, so.
47:48
the most important thing, and when you boil it down, food
47:51
is the most important thing.
47:52
So having that ability to know how to grow it, to know how to
47:56
prepare it probably should be our first goal, our primary goal.
48:00
And you know, we, I would put that in the science curriculum a hundred percent.
48:04
You know, put that in the health curriculum and you
48:06
know, it, it belongs there.
48:08
But we've just, because I think we have a, a culture of abundance, you know,
48:12
since we're that, you know, food's always been there that we don't even.
48:16
Think about it as a necessity because we don't have to fight for it.
48:20
You know, it's been a long, cleaning up my mom's house.
48:23
I found ration coupons and, you know, it's been a long time
48:27
Jesse Hirsh: And I think we take for granted the, the, the systems
48:31
we have now and the way in which certainly in my lifetime, uh, we.
48:36
We haven't had the Victory Garden as a necessity.
48:39
It really has been something that is more, uh, a, a, a nice to
48:44
have rather than a need to have.
48:46
But the benefit of investing in the nice to haves is that when you need
48:50
to have 'em, you already have them.
48:52
So you already have that capacity and, and you already have that there.
48:57
Barb Scott Cole: No, that that's true, but we're really shortsighted.
48:59
You know it, you know what?
49:01
Remembering COVID when there was a shortage of yeast and a shortage of
49:04
flour, 'cause that's the first time in decades anybody baked and you know,
49:10
things are, are missing from the shelves.
49:12
And I think people are, it's.
49:14
Tweaking in their mindset, you know, maybe it, our food system isn't as
49:18
secure as we think it is, and we're, we're super lucky here in Canada.
49:23
But you know, like I, I've, I think I bought cauliflower last week.
49:29
That was a product of Mexico when it normally had come from California.
49:33
You know, we're, we're changing and that's that what we thought once was
49:36
secure and untouchable is not, and.
49:42
Well, I think I worry that we're going to, uh, figure it out as a society,
49:46
uh, too little, too late and, you know, at least, at least the kids that,
49:51
that the 12 kids that I was dealing with do know how to grow tomatoes now.
49:55
So, there's that.
49:57
Jesse Hirsh: What.
49:58
Barb Scott Cole: so yeah, I won't give, disclose the location where
50:01
they are, just in case tomatoes become incredibly valuable.
50:05
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and you know, to your point, part of the mandate of
50:08
this podcast, part of the mission of this podcast is to make sure
50:13
that it isn't too little, too late.
50:15
That we start to do, uh, what needs to be done.
50:18
Now we start to have the conversations, uh, we need to have now.
50:23
And Barb, that's where, uh, you have.
50:26
Uh, absolutely succeeded and have, uh, uh, fully demonstrated your bonafides
50:33
a as a leader within the sector.
50:35
And I say that partly as a setup for my last question, which is the shout
50:40
out part of the show because I always feel that any good leader is always
50:45
willing, uh, and ready to acknowledge.
50:47
Other leaders, uh, who they think we should be connecting with.
50:52
So, uh, it's meant to be spontaneous, but you know, who comes to mind?
50:56
Who are the people that you kind of pay attention to that, that you look
51:00
up to, that you think the rest of us should be similarly, uh, looking up.
51:05
Barb Scott Cole: I, I am gonna show to my two four H leaders right now.
51:08
Um, Jennifer Dolman and Alyssa Paver.
51:11
Um, they are both, uh, Aggie grads as well, but of different generations.
51:17
So it's really fun to, to work with a recent grad and a semi
51:21
recent grad, um, to do things.
51:24
Jen's really involved with the federation and Alyssa works in ag business.
51:27
So again, um, tremendous leadership.
51:30
Um.
51:32
I'm gonna shout out to Camden Lawrence and, and Tina Brant for, uh, bringing
51:37
four H um, back into ffo and supporting that in different communities.
51:43
And they were tremendous.
51:45
And I, I'm gonna just shout out to.
51:48
like to share it out to my, my four H leader to Mark Everly for asking
51:52
me and taking the time to do that.
51:54
Um, just to make sure she was, she was, had succession planning on her brain
51:59
long before I knew that of that term.
52:02
So I think that's, um, really important and there's so many really
52:07
great people that I've met everywhere across the province that have neat
52:11
ideas and are willing to share.
52:13
And for you that are too many to name, shout out to all of you.
52:17
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
52:17
And you know, to that point we'd love to have you back only because I think we're
52:21
just sort of scratching the surface.
52:24
And you, you kind of evoke a, a sense in me that the leaders of the past
52:29
were kind of demagogues, who focused on ideology versus the leaders of the
52:34
future are pedagogues, who love to teach and who not so much rely upon
52:39
an ideology, but rely upon curiosity to better understand the world.
52:44
And I kind of feel you've really embodied that in, in a really inspirational way.
52:50
So before we end, uh, any final thoughts, anything that we didn't
52:54
talk about today that you would like to briefly mention before we end?
52:58
Barb Scott Cole: Um, yeah, four H has been my life.
53:01
Um, and you know, I, I have learned so much.
53:05
I think I've received so much more than I've been able to give.
53:08
And I think a lot of us who've been around who are still here, um, despite
53:12
our be our better impulses to retire.
53:16
Um, uh.
53:18
um, we just go, 'cause it's the kids.
53:21
We just do it for the kids because they, they make us laugh, they make us happy
53:25
and it's, it's all worthwhile that way.
53:28
You know, it's having that connection and that's why we keep doing it.
53:32
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
53:32
Thanks.
53:34
Barb Scott Cole: Hey, you're very welcome.
53:36
Speaker 2: I think a great takeaway from today's episode is we need to look at
53:39
the system differently, not as a set of outputs to optimise, but as a network
53:45
of people learning, coordinating and carrying something forward together.
53:50
'cause that's what I think Barb teaches us.
53:53
That the real infrastructure of agriculture isn't just
53:56
land equipment or even policy.
53:59
It's the relationships and most importantly, the learning environments
54:04
that make everything else possible.
54:06
And, and these don't just manifest outta nowhere, and more importantly,
54:10
they don't rebuild themselves.
54:13
They require intention.
54:15
Spaces where people can show up, ask questions, take on responsibility, and
54:20
grow into the roles they didn't expect.
54:24
They require institutions that stay close to the ground and leadership that
54:29
understands its role as connective, as empowering, not just telling people
54:34
what to do, and that work is slower.
54:38
Less visible, maybe even less rewarding.
54:40
Certainly harder to measure, but it's also what determines whether anything
54:46
sticks, whether we're gonna make progress.
54:50
So as you think about the future, whether you're a farmer or a policy maker, or
54:54
someone just trying to shape the system.
54:57
The question isn't what needs to change.
55:01
It's how we create the conditions for people to make that change, to learn,
55:06
to adapt, to really come together to make the kind of food that we as a
55:11
society fundamentally need and deserve.
55:15
And that's where the real work begins.
55:18
Now, a quick note on theme songs.
55:21
You'll notice the intro song today is the previous outro song, and I'm
55:26
using a different outro song today.
55:30
Part of this is me probing the copyright cops on the platform to see
55:35
what texts us, but I'm also trying to evoke an ethic, uh, a spirit, a vibe.
55:41
Uh, so I'd love to hear what you think.
55:44
Until next time, we'll see you in the future Herd.