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Transcript

We Don't Need Your Book · The Reformatory

0:00
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you got for me?
0:02
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
0:32
[SPEAKER_03]: As long as I'm not for me, we're gonna add the benediction right there, that was so good.
0:36
[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the reformatory, the podcast for the local church and by the local church and we are your local churchmen, my name is Josh and I'm here as always with the man, the myth, the legend Jack.
0:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Barry, Jack, we are recording this early.
0:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Where this gets released, we will be in Omaha.
0:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Nebraska.
0:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It will be at the Pactum Conference and it will be too late.
1:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It will be too late for people to join.
1:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm sorry everybody.
1:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You missed it.
1:09
[SPEAKER_02]: We wish where were you?
1:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Where were we?
1:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We were waiting for you.
1:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We had we had we had we had we had we had we had the we have the chair set aside for you.
1:19
[SPEAKER_02]: We had a cigar ready for you and you didn't show up.
1:22
[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't show up and made us that.
1:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's where we're at.
1:28
[SPEAKER_02]: But Jack, definitely looking forward to the packed conference, looking forward to being with everybody.
1:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Something we can still go about and advertise, of course, is
1:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Our March, our reformatory March, our Reformation Month March, nothing better.
1:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing better to celebrate Reformation Month with, then our reject the papacy, t-shirts, and sweatshirts, our 1517 t-shirts and sweatshirts.
2:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Both found on Amazon.
2:03
[SPEAKER_02]: dot com that little mom and pop retail store you know they've really done well for themselves it's nice seeing the nice seeing the family owned family owned businesses make good here in the big corporate america amazon you're doing doing well but anyway a link in the description of this this episode
2:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Get yours today and celebrate Reformation Month in style looking absolutely amazing Jack might my man.
2:29
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing?
2:29
[SPEAKER_02]: It's good to see you.
2:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, good to be here.
2:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good to do radio with Josh as always.
2:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, next week will be interesting because before Omaha, I have to go down to San Diego on that Tuesday and Wednesday.
2:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So wow, yeah, traveling is going to be coconuts.
2:48
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's going to be a coconuts week.
2:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have I have some days off in between and stuff like that.
2:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can help out the wife and the kids.
2:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's always helpful.
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
3:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, very cool.
3:05
[SPEAKER_02]: That's going to be, that's going to be, yeah, you're going to have a busy week.
3:07
[SPEAKER_02]: That's going to be a busy week for you.
3:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
3:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
3:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Jack, we're going to get into talking about some unfortunately, uh, just things that won't die.
3:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But that, that's just that just seems to be seems to be a lot of things.
3:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
3:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But before we do, let's start with a little with a little levity is levity.
3:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's levity is not brevity.
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Brevity means that you are, like, you're being concise, right?
3:34
[SPEAKER_02]: levity leaves it you're like bringing lightness to it.
3:38
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, I just want to make sure I just want to make sure let's bring some levity to this episode and it's time for everyone's favorite segment Don't forget to eat your instant grams and know the time you've been waiting for No, I'm a direct podcast presents don't forget to eat your instant grams with your host Josh loved us on Jack Mary and remember kids.
4:00
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not heresy if you believe it hard enough
4:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not her save you, but leave it hot enough, kid.
4:07
[SPEAKER_02]: See, that's how it works these days.
4:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Jack, my friend.
4:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Heresy is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is
4:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, when you, there's a lot of ways that we as Christians should be preparing our hearts for the Lord's Day, right?
4:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I would argue it starts Saturday night.
4:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You start, you know, read the passage.
4:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Pray for your people.
4:41
[SPEAKER_02]: All that stuff, right?
4:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Sways that you can prepare your heart in the morning to start orienting your mind for what it is that we are about to do.
4:48
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not one of the ways to do it.
5:02
[SPEAKER_02]: short and sweet for our audio only listeners it's taking five edibles take out that was before you go in the middle of a man slamming a bag of uh... of pot pot gummies and the caption is uh... we'd before church hits different
5:20
[SPEAKER_02]: shirt does.
5:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it does.
5:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing can't imagine anything.
5:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Rivaloring the experience of going into the presence of the Lord higher than a kite.
5:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
5:37
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what helping guys.
5:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Jack this this next one.
5:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even really know how to give you the premise except this guy.
5:44
[SPEAKER_02]: This guy might, this guy is more than likely.
5:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how many weed gummies he pounded before taking this video, but enjoy.
5:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey folks, this is John Mohamed Paneal and this is part 4 of me offering you proofs that Spokane Washington is the biblical city of Jerusalem.
6:10
[SPEAKER_04]: What?
6:12
[SPEAKER_04]: First of all, John Mohammed, who are you doing?
6:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Like who is this guy?
6:17
[SPEAKER_02]: That video went on for about 10 minutes.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not, yeah.
6:22
[SPEAKER_01]: 10 minutes.
6:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude, speaking about taking gummies, dude, is real.
6:28
[SPEAKER_02]: If you guys didn't know, Spokane Washington of all the places in Spokane Washington.
6:36
[SPEAKER_02]: That he could have chose.
6:38
[SPEAKER_02]: He chose Spokane Washington to say, you know what this is it This is it.
6:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I see it.
6:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Dude.
6:45
[SPEAKER_02]: This guy's got videos on videos on videos of like where like the amount of olives is in Spokane Godgatha like Jesus being crucified in Spokane Washington, which to be fair to be fair
7:00
[SPEAKER_02]: You drive through Spokane, yeah, no, this is this is kind of this is a value of death.
7:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this is this is yeah, yeah Wow, Spokane Washington man doing, you know, dude here and while he he has been taking gummies and reading the book of Mormon too much That's for dang sure that is for dang sure
7:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, almost equally as insane Jack, not quite, but almost equally as insane is, um,
7:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man, this news that broke what a charge of about I know I was really hoping it was a I was really hoping it was like it It did look like it from the jump.
7:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, like so what obviously we're talking about is Steve Lawson former, you know conference speaker preacher author Was it a year ago?
8:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Had that long maybe maybe I can I don't think it was much longer.
8:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe to a fact check on us while I well I like intro or topic here.
8:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Steve Lawson.
8:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Very well known within the reformed Calvinistic communities for you know his preaching his his books conference speaking all that stuff shepherds conference G3.
8:24
[SPEAKER_02]: A while ago I know it was at least a year.
8:30
[SPEAKER_02]: confessed to an adulterous relationship with a woman not his wife and do that whenever people say that like just as a side note, I don't understand that like that's what an adulterous relationship is because they always they always add the tagline like you confess to an adulterous relationship with a woman other than his wife and well yeah that's what adultery is why did you add anyway that's just that just my that's just my weird brain anyway confess to that it was a woman much younger than him
8:59
[SPEAKER_02]: young enough to be a granddaughter and has since then kind of dropped off rightly so the face of the map confessed his sin was removed from all speaking engagements and all you know places of authority all that stuff.
9:19
[SPEAKER_02]: He's come out with a book.
9:21
[SPEAKER_02]: He's come out with a book and it's a book
9:28
[SPEAKER_02]: talking through his sin, and his apparent repentance.
9:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm actually going to pull it up right here.
9:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I should have pulled this up.
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So while Josh is pulling it out, so back in 2000 October of 2024, that's when people started to, I think, leaders started to,
9:58
[SPEAKER_01]: in act church discipline on Steve Lawson because he somewhat confessed to something along the lines of what he actually did was being caught in adultery and an adulterous relationship back in October of 2024 and then March of 2025 if you finally confessed to it so six months afterwards yeah yeah and so yeah roughly over a year and
10:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the book is the book isn't titled Mercy in the Wilderness.
10:31
[SPEAKER_02]: How I fell and what I found which I would just be like I'm not trying to be like I'm really not trying to be petty.
10:41
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a it's a horrible title.
10:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds like it sounds like something a first year writing student would would would write.
10:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, this is on Amazon right now for 15 bucks.
10:56
[SPEAKER_02]: The reviews are
11:00
[SPEAKER_02]: about what you would expect them to be the Justin Peters put a review on there which is such as if you if you if you if you have some moments go go read some of the reviews.
11:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I think last I looked it was at a two star.
11:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was at a two star.
11:15
[SPEAKER_02]: It's getting review bombed for sure.
11:18
[SPEAKER_02]: But one of his friends Todd Leonard put on Twitter was a picture of the book and then a picture of him standing next to Stephen.
11:26
[SPEAKER_02]: He said this and I don't know who Todd Leonard is.
11:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Apparently he's he's a teacher and a friend of a friend of Steve Lawson's.
11:37
[SPEAKER_02]: He just said it was good to spend time recently with one of my mentors and heroes of the faith.
11:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Steve Lawson.
11:44
[SPEAKER_02]: his new book, Mercy in the Wilderness, how I fell in what I found as available.
11:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Then he sights Proverbs 24, 16, where it says the righteous fall seven times and rises again.
11:56
[SPEAKER_02]: He goes on to say, this is not a book of excuses, a defense or a carefully crafted plea for empathy that so often follows public failure.
12:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a confession.
12:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna pause right there.
12:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Lawson already did that.
12:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he already confessed.
12:10
[SPEAKER_02]: We already had a public statement that that he put out.
12:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Confession for the same sin and the same instance is not something that you have to continuously do.
12:22
[SPEAKER_02]: You confess and then cut the gospel covers over and you move on, right?
12:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Lawson writes with unusual candor and painful honesty about the deception of his sin, the devastation at least behind, and the grace of God that meets a broken and repentant sinner in the depths of ruin.
12:41
[SPEAKER_02]: His own summary is piercing.
12:44
[SPEAKER_02]: My giftedness exceeded my godliness.
12:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I suspect that's a danger for many people in ministry.
12:52
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I suspect it's common to all men who desire to live a godly life.
12:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a restingly humble.
12:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Or excuse me, it's a restingly humbling.
13:01
[SPEAKER_02]: There's an old adage, never trust a man who doesn't limp or have scars.
13:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Fallen men should go to a normalist to enormous depths to help other fallen men walk in repentance.
13:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Not minimizing sin, but magnifying the mercy of God that is greater.
13:16
[SPEAKER_02]: than our greatest failure.
13:18
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not an argument for restoration to our day in ministry.
13:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I have my views, but others can form their own judgments.
13:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what that means.
13:28
[SPEAKER_02]: It is an assertion that God forgives restores and returns fallen men to useful ministry in his kingdom.
13:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I think that's a lotus statement there.
13:40
[SPEAKER_02]: David fell grievously.
13:41
[SPEAKER_02]: David repented deeply.
13:42
[SPEAKER_02]: David was restored.
13:44
[SPEAKER_02]: We're still consequences to David's sin.
13:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone died because of David's sin.
13:50
[SPEAKER_02]: David's family was in ruin because of David's sin.
13:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
13:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's not restored in the same way.
13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But David, David was restored.
14:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And he still stands among the godly men of scripture.
14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's true.
14:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Stephen Lawson authored and edited a long line of godly men, it helped me shape, it helped shape me at a pivotal moment in my life as it did countless others despite his terrible fall and because I believe the gospel he preached is powerful enough to restore the preacher.
14:19
[SPEAKER_02]: In my estimation, he still stands among them by mercy in the wilderness now on Amazon.
14:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
14:31
[SPEAKER_02]: couple thoughts here.
14:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'll throw it over to you, Jack.
14:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Then I actually want to read a really great post that Pastor Brian Borgman out of Mended Nevada put out on Facebook addressing this, which I think very well encapsulates my thoughts and feelings on this whole thing.
14:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's always a red flag to me when someone who has been caught in a sin to the level that
15:02
[SPEAKER_02]: attempts to come back to the limelight even if it's not in the same way but comes back to the limelight this soon after the sin had been committed.
15:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would argue that, you know, the wounds that loss in
15:25
[SPEAKER_02]: the wounds that lost and caused because of his skin because of his sin have not even scarred over.
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, and this isn't something where we see, you know, you know, you know, 10 years ago he did this, but you know, look how the Lord's you know, you know, there's like time, time is a factor here.
15:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think that's something that should be ignored.
15:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's easy to drop the argument and Brian Borgman actually talks about this too.
15:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's easy to give examples like Peter and David and these men that we see in Scripture who sing grievously but were restored.
16:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that that's a one to one.
16:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think we should use that as a template with which to interact with situations like these.
16:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I think those are, I don't think those are normative.
16:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think those are meant to be seen as normative.
16:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Do I believe the gospel can restore?
16:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
16:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not believe the restoration is going to look like you just coming back to the position that you were in, right?
16:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems to me, and then I'll throw this over to you.
16:38
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems a little tone deaf to me.
16:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And it seems like there is a lack of discernment on the part of Lawson, and I'm gonna assume those around him that are encouraging him to do this.
16:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's the right move.
16:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I'll be honest, I don't need a book from Steve Lawson.
17:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, telling me adultery is bad.
17:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't need a book from Stephen Lawson talking about his sin and how the Lord is, you know, has restored him.
17:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
17:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I have that.
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I, I, I, I would love Steve Lawson.
17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: to live out his repentance quietly.
17:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
17:29
[SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't need to write a book.
17:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that's what might come naturally to him.
17:36
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think what Steve needs is guys around him saying, you know what, that part of your life is over.
17:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, exactly.
17:42
[SPEAKER_02]: The Lord closed of that door.
17:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
17:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And you need to be content with that door being closed and be effective for the gospel.
17:55
[SPEAKER_02]: in the context of your local church and those people around you.
17:58
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't need the limelight anymore.
17:59
[SPEAKER_02]: The limelight I would argue Jack and then I promise I'll throw it over to you after this.
18:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm rambling.
18:05
[SPEAKER_02]: The limelight I would argue the limelight is one of the catalysts that put him in this position in the first place.
18:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
18:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying it's the excuse.
18:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
18:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying it's the context.
18:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And the last thing Steve Lawson needs right now, just like the last thing someone recovering from alcohol needs is to go into a liquor store.
18:26
[SPEAKER_02]: The last thing Steve Lawson needs right now is to be creeping back into the very context that'll that gave him the opportunity to commit this sin in the first place.
18:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:40
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I would argue.
18:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing too.
18:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I think our culture is telling Josh in our, in, in a previous, pod like episode that we recorded, I just how, I think,
18:58
[SPEAKER_01]: where we're somewhat starting to learn and understand the mistakes that a lot of these were formed celebrity pastors have made in the first half or in the first quarter amount of years of the 21st century and we need to learn more from that and basically take what's happened and implement it in our local churches more.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't mean like we need to go like full Benedict option or something like that.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Benedict option basically means like you need to withdraw completely from the public eye or something like that.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It just means like you need to be honest.
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: and open about the ways in which you were absolutely led astray and how your flesh conformed to make you do what you did and go against God's Word.
19:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So for him, he needs to like, here's the thing that makes me upset too.
19:59
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just yes guys around him right now.
20:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming.
20:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that's not true, but I hope that's not either, but there's no, there's obviously not a guy saying, maybe this, maybe this isn't the thing you should do.
20:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's, so that's the hard part, too.
20:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yes, like just saying, having yes guys will not solve any issues in a local church in a pastor who has basically
20:32
[SPEAKER_01]: like, yes men are not going to help you, like attain any kind of redemption or reconciliation and restoration.
20:42
[SPEAKER_01]: They will only propel you back to the vomit to which you just you just did, and they will, and they will turn you back to that vomit and say, go eat that again, basically.
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So not to make a, not to make a harsh biblical kind of thing, but like that's the
21:01
[SPEAKER_01]: it's really not helpful for Steve Lawson.
21:05
[SPEAKER_01]: If his problem was being in the line white and how he got basically addicted to being a celebrity pastor and speaker, probably shouldn't do that anymore.
21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we need to learn more and more that like
21:21
[SPEAKER_01]: The Christian life is a life of the ordinary means of grace.
21:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And the ordinary means of grace happen in a very ordinary, obscure environment, basically 99% of the time.
21:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So if nobody's telling him that,
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're just perpetuating this, like, select Christian celebrity, reformed-ish culture.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's, he's never gonna, he's never gonna learn.
21:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And if, all he has is yes, guys around him, of course he's not gonna learn.
21:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, and I guess, I guess that, kind of spurs on my question, right?
21:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Is, why, why does it have to be public?
22:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, because I hear, like, I hear the arguments,
22:06
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, well, and you know, he's not getting back into the past, right?
22:10
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not he's not preaching at a church, you know, he's not just qualified from writing a book, right?
22:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, there's nothing in scripture.
22:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I agree, of course.
22:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And I agree that I, you know, your, you know, your sin is, is, is public, your repentant should be public.
22:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I would argue we already got that.
22:31
[SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't need to do that anymore.
22:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I would just, I don't understand why he feels the need to continue to be in the public eye.
22:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
22:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand it.
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why he feels like this is needed when his repentance and his confession
23:06
[SPEAKER_02]: just as well.
23:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, in the context of the local church that he's receiving care from.
23:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, it concerns me that, you know, repentants like this has to be in a public way.
23:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
23:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I
23:31
[SPEAKER_02]: That is something that I look at and it raises a little red flag because, yeah, I'm not, it's, I'm not saying he can't be effective for the gospel.
23:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course he can.
23:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that the Lord can't use him to encourage other people who are struggling in sin.
23:48
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, of course he can.
23:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Steve Lawson will have the ability, you know,
23:52
[SPEAKER_02]: to be able to help someone else who's finding themselves in and say, hey, I was there and it's not going to be easy, but the gospel is true and the gospel is good.
24:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me tell you how.
24:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't understand why that has to be a public thing.
24:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Why that has to go beyond the local
24:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the go ahead and then I'm going to read what Brian says here because that's really good.
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the public things that should happen is more along the lines of like repenting publicly to people.
24:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I feel like there needs to be more of that.
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think there needs to be a huge, if you were in the limelight and if you were a public speaker doing this, you need to publicly say in several different instances, like I lead people astray.
24:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That is not the standard to leadership within the church to leadership within Christianity, like that is not the standard.
25:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I do need to, um,
25:04
[SPEAKER_01]: ask you for forgiveness of that.
25:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I need to show that I am contrite in my repentance about this and not just, hey, it's been a year and a half.
25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
25:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
25:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the stuff.
25:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the thing is is nothing nothing, nothing makes me doubt the genuineness of someone's, you know,
25:34
[SPEAKER_02]: when they, they seem to be seeking after the, the, the lifestyle that they were in.
25:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, I'm not, I'm not saying that he's trying to get back into the pastor or the conferences, but I will say this, I won't be surprised if he tries.
25:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
25:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it has been the M.O.
25:53
[SPEAKER_02]: of many a man who has been caught in sin to wait a little bit.
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Jump theological camps and start.
26:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
26:04
[SPEAKER_02]: We've seen it before.
26:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm praying.
26:06
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't see that here.
26:08
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is not a good.
26:09
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't a good start.
26:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't give me.
26:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't give me a lot of hope unfortunately.
26:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Brian Borgman put this out.
26:19
[SPEAKER_02]: on Facebook.
26:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was really good.
26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's just some very, it's a very accessible description of my thoughts and feelings on this and Brian just put it in a very, a very clear way.
26:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd like to, I'd like to read that for us here.
26:39
[SPEAKER_02]: He says this.
26:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He says, I know some will not appreciate this post, but here it goes.
26:44
[SPEAKER_02]: My former pastor, Jim Andrews, was a mentor to me.
26:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He always cut it straight.
26:49
[SPEAKER_02]: He is still an encouragement to me.
26:52
[SPEAKER_02]: But years ago, when David Hawking of Calvary Church committed adultery and then started teaching on how to maintain integrity and ministry, Jim told the interns, men, if I want to learn how to succeed financially, I don't go to a guy who has had to file bankruptcy.
27:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to hear from the guy who made it through the tough times without filing bankruptcy and was successful.
27:19
[SPEAKER_02]: For some reason, Christians love high-profile failure, excuse me, high-profile failure testimonies.
27:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my Freudian slip is also true.
27:29
[SPEAKER_02]: We love high-profile failure, but I think we like even less high-profile failure testimonies which is a problem.
27:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, Brian says, for some reason, Christians love high-profile failure testimonies.
27:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe in redemption, however I would rather learn it from a man who has stood and with stood temptation, maintained his purity than a man who can only tell me about his failures.
27:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone will quickly say, well what about Peter?
27:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Peter was restored, and Peter was used by God after he denied our Lord, but he didn't go out on a tour or write a book about failure.
28:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I would think more highly of the high-profile preacher, you know, obviously referencing Lawson there.
28:12
[SPEAKER_02]: If he made a profession, if he made a public confession, which he has, and then served quietly in his local church as an ordinary member of the Body of Christ.
28:23
[SPEAKER_02]: In other words, I think it is a better testimony to stack chairs and clean tables than to write a book.
28:29
[SPEAKER_02]: That last line is wonderful.
28:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it is a better testimony to stack chairs and clean tables than to write a book.
28:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And that encapsulates my concern with this.
28:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the warning that we should be taking as Christians who are committed to our local churches,
28:51
[SPEAKER_02]: is that there's such a temptation for the world to see our good works, to see our confessions, to see all of the things that we are doing and we forget that the main way, the main avenue that God has given us, to work out our gifts, work out our repentance,
29:20
[SPEAKER_02]: We should have such a higher desire to be in our local churches and to serve our local churches in obscurity.
29:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe no one will ever know your name, but your savior knows your name.
29:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And that old lady that you helped out with her firewood knows your name.
29:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And the people that you've encouraged in your small group knows your name,
29:42
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where the ministry happens, and it concerns me that we're not even a year, you know, well, you know, not even two years removed from Lawson demolishing his ministry, his marriage, his family, and he's already writing a book about those events and what he's learned from it.
30:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I would argue you haven't been far enough removed to learn what the Lord wants you to learn from it.
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very much.
30:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Those things take time, right?
30:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost, it'll, it just gives this era of like, okay, well, we got through that, I, you know, I did what the other told me, it let's, okay, you know, we're moving on.
30:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And slow your roll brother.
30:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:24
[SPEAKER_02]: you don't need to be in the public eye anymore, you know, we're not even two years removed from you living in habitual hidden sin, right?
30:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if, if, if one of the elders, like, you know, haven't forbid, good gracious.
30:41
[SPEAKER_02]: If one of the elders in our church, you know, committed adultery and cheated on his wife and then, you know, maybe a little over a year later was like, hey, I'd really like to teach a class on repentance.
30:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I really like to teach a class on how to, you know, work through marital, marital difficulty.
30:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not the guy in my dude.
31:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
31:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's.
31:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that you cannot be used by the Lord to bring encouragement to the Saints.
31:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I know the Lord will do that, right?
31:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:13
[SPEAKER_02]: but sin has consequences and just because you might be repentant from the sin that you committed does not mean that you are going to be restored back to the same level or position that the Lord had you before then.
31:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not the guy for this.
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you need to be content with living quietly, working with your hands and living out your faith and your repentance in a practical way in the local church.
31:38
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't need to be in front of people.
31:40
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not good for you.
31:41
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not going to be good for you right now.
31:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I would rather them here and see and learn from your repentance across the kitchen table than behind the pulpit.
31:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd rather you be in their living room and tell them about the faithfulness of the Lord in your life than writing a book about it.
31:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
32:00
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I would rather, and I would argue that is going to be a thousand times more effective in encouraging the saints than them reading a $15 book on Amazon.
32:15
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I would argue.
32:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Some people would call me, you know, a curmudgeon that I don't believe in grace, that I don't, that I, you know, you know, you
32:23
[SPEAKER_02]: if that's what you're hearing from this then you're not you're you're not hearing what I'm saying yeah you're talking um but it's just it's just it's raising red flags man and I just don't I don't like I don't like where it's going and yeah yeah I just I don't it doesn't have to be public it doesn't have to be public
32:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I said to like I feel like the the things that he should be doing publicly like confessing the people or meeting with them and confessing his his failures in his sin and asking for forgiveness that needs to happen.
32:56
[SPEAKER_01]: He needs to be going out to people that he misled and lied to and dissuade and.
33:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, name it and he needs to be going out doing that kind of public ministry.
33:11
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't need to be going out doing this.
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you what I learned from this.
33:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, get out of here, man.
33:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Like nobody wants to hear from that.
33:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, do you just go like go in my mind to be quite honest, like go get a job at Costco.
33:29
[SPEAKER_01]: go live out your repentance and show people in the church that you're actually serious about this versus trying to get back into some sort of celebrity limelight status again.
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's what it shows me.
33:42
[SPEAKER_01]: This shows me and it's not helpful.
33:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't show me that he's serious about his repentance.
33:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It shows me he's serious about getting back into the public eye and the public ministry.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And this, let's be honest, like, you're not qualified to do that, dude.
33:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not.
33:59
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
34:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we should be, there should be some fear and trembling, when stuff like this happens, a good, hearty, like healthy fear and trembling.
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But for him, it doesn't seem like there's any fear and trembling.
34:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like he's just wading back into that water, and seeing where this goes.
34:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that
34:23
[SPEAKER_01]: the review bombs keep coming because he needs to learn that he doesn't need to be in the line line anymore.
34:31
[SPEAKER_01]: He needs to go be in obscurity and live out the rest of his days in obscurity and talk to people in publicly, hopefully like meet them in public and tell them that
34:50
[SPEAKER_01]: They that he needs their their forgiveness that he is asking for that like I can't see any other way forward than living out in obscurity and asking for forgiveness for forgiveness for forgiveness
35:03
[SPEAKER_01]: He needs to just not do this current trajectory that he see, Driscold doing, that we see everybody in their mother doing to be quite honest, it just doesn't show me that he's really serious about his repentance.
35:17
[SPEAKER_01]: It just shows me that he's serious about being a celebrity pastor, and there's celebrity.
35:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
35:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, yeah, that, that is sadly the track record and I really hope that's not true.
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like I hope it wasn't true with all the others, that, that, that, that, that's the same playbook, right?
35:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Like again, the playbook's undefeated.
35:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and, you know, it doesn't cause me to hope that it would be the exception, but, you know, we're in the, you know, we're in the second quarter of this playbook right now.
35:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and we've seen what comes next.
35:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I hope that's not true,
35:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway Jack, we're going to get out of here.
35:54
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got stuff to do.
35:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll record some episodes for our patrons.
35:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want you to get this out of here, my man.
36:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls, if you appreciate Josh and I just, I don't know about commentary, just like how we grieve for situations like this, how we want to walk in wisdom and make the church central to our to the believer's life.
36:18
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36:25
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36:27
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36:51
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36:51
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37:00
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37:03
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37:12
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37:32
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