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Trump Arraignment Syndrome · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Jon Favreau is feeling a little under the weather today, Dan.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: So we are about to record what many people are calling...
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: the single best Thursday pod in history. You know that, right?
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Roger Ebert called this episode ingeniously conceived and seamlessly executed. No,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: that was actually a Wes Anderson movie review, but we'll
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: try to do our best here without our fearless leader friend, John.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: So on today's show, we got Donald Trump turning his
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: federal indictment into a campaign event slash fundraiser slash birthday party,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: as one does. He turned 77 on Wednesday, Dan. I
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: think that raises serious questions. about whether Trump is too
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: old to do the job. Don't you agree? Uh, what
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: else we got? We got Chris Christie, uh, cannonballing into
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: the CNN town hall waters, strict scrutinies, Leah Littman and
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Dan talk about what comes next in the legal process.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: So there's an actual smart person in the B block.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: We have to get one in every three to four weeks.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: So usually that person is a host of strict scrutiny.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, thank God for them. And then Dan and
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I are going to talk about California Governor Gavin Newsom's
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News. Was that last night,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: last week? When does anything happen?
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: It was very recent. I think it was before.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I watched it on YouTube.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Monday, maybe?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Sunday?
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, it was good. I think they broke it
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: into multiple parts, too. Sean is just milking that thing
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: for all he can. But, Dan, because we all love
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: California politics, if you cannot get enough of them, San
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Francisco Mayor London Breed is going to be a special
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: guest today. at a Love It or Leave It live
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: show at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: on June 22nd. Go to crooked.com slash events for more
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: info on how to get tickets. And there is still
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: time to support our fuck bands, Leave Queer Kids Alone
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: funds that go to help support organizations on the ground
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: in states that are passing bigoted laws attacking trans adults
• 2:12
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• 2:14
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• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Both are great. Both are greatly appreciated. So go to votesaveamerica.com
• 2:22
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• 2:24
  Speaker 1: had to double our goal, Dan, because we're just raising
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: so much cash. So thank you to everyone who did.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: News time. So Trump was arrested in Miami. He pleaded
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: not guilty to 37 felony counts of violating the Espionage
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Act and obstruction of justice. He was fingerprinted. There were
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: no photographs, bail. There's no gag order or travel restrictions
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: that we know of, though the judge did say Trump
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: is not allowed to commit any more crimes before the trial.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: That seems unfair to me, Dan. It's kind of like,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: in his nature. The crowd of Trump fans and protesters
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: outside the courthouse was smaller than expected, but Trump did
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: make an unannounced campaign stop at a famous Cuban restaurant
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: before flying to Bedminster, where he held a campaign-style rally.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Here's a clip.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden broke the law and so far has not
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: gotten indicted.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: I did everything right and they indicted me.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: So, I did. I love that Trump doesn't just give
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: like a campaign-style speech about the indictment and do the fundraiser,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: complete with teleprompter and crowd and all the trappings. They
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: also scheduled what people in politics call an OTR at
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: a famous Cuban restaurant. That means you don't advise the
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: president in advance. You just sort of show up so
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Secret Service doesn't have to lock down the place. Were
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: you surprised that the Trump team turned this into just
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: another day on the campaign trail?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I'm not surprised, but I am impressed. Look, Going on
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: a campaign stop immediately after you were charged with 37
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: felony counts is definitely a thumb in the eye of
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: the legal system. When those 37 felony counts are for
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: mishandling classified information, it's probably a thumb in the eye
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: of the military and our intelligence professionals and all of that.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: But it probably is smart politics. Trump is, he wants
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: to seem unbothered, uncowled, triumphant in the face of his
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: incredibly precarious legal situation.
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: He did it.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: He did it.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: After the indictment details came out over the weekend, he
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: went to a Waffle House in Georgia and bought waffles
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: for everyone. Now he's at a Cuban restaurant. And I
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: do think that in the– yes, Trump is a self-destructive buffoon,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: which is why he's in this mess. But this version
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: of his campaign, unlike 2016 and unlike 2020, actually has
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: some strategy surrounding the cell phones from Trump that is
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: pretty impressive. Like there's an actual plan here and he
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: is working aggressively to maximize his political position despite all–
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: possibly being sent to jail for decades. Um, and it's,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: so I think it's impressive. And I think I tell
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: any Democrat that I talked to about this is that
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: his campaign this time around has a plan and this
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: is part of that plan.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We, I should say we can't confirm reports that he, uh,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: wrapped up half of his sandwich to go in some
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: nuclear secrets, but there's some talk of that online.
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Like legally speaking, I mean, maybe this goes without saying,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: but attacking the guy prosecuting you, attacking his wife, constantly
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: commenting on a case that hasn't been tried yet is
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: probably a bad idea. But you're right. I mean, Trump
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: probably rightly views everything in life as a political problem,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: first and foremost. And I don't know, maybe he wants
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: to raise money. He wants to keep his supporters on sides.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: He wants to keep other Republicans on sides. And he
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: probably thinks all I need to do is convince one
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: juror that I'm innocent, future juror, I should say, and
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: that this is unfair. So Why not go big and
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: influence public opinion? And to your point about the plan,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: the restaurant you went to, Versailles, is a famous spot
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: for politicians to visit. You know, he's clearly appealing to
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: a more conservative Cuban community in Miami. Stone crab season
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: is over. It's worth mentioning that. So we didn't go
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: to Joe's. But question for you, Dan, he may have
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: a little competition in the Miami Cuban community. The mayor
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: of Miami, Francis Suarez, jumped into the race today. He
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: once suggested that the U.S. should consider airstrikes on Cuba.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: He might be most famous for creating a cryptocurrency called MiamiCoin,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: which is only down 96 percent from its peak so far.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: So some room to grow there. He may also be
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: under indictment. He also said publicly he didn't vote for
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Trump or for DeSantis. So competitor, what do you think?
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So when you say it's down 96%, that means it's
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: outperforming most cryptocurrencies. Is that correct?
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. Listen, all I see is a potential. That's
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: what I see here.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Look, I think it fits perfect with his campaign slogan
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: of buy the dip.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Buy the dip. Buy the dip. Francis Suarez, buy the dip. So, okay,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: let's talk about Trump's speech. I watched it this morning
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: on YouTube. Thank you again.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: And what speed did you watch it?
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I was going to thank the YouTube engineers for allowing
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: 2X because I needed it.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: It was a weird mix of sort of political rally.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: He clearly likes speaking at Bedminster because it's got those
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: white columns that look sort of like White House adjacent,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Like the 2008 Obama convention speech?
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. For those who aren't Obama-pilled like we are,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: we had columns. They looked Greek. Everyone attacked us for
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: a while at our outdoor event in Denver. Anyway, it
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: was a rally, but he was also trying to fire
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: up the crowd by explaining kind of how the Presidential
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Records Act governs document retention, which seems to confuse people
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: for big stretches. He gave my old boss, John Edwards,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: a shout out. There was a lot of whataboutism when
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: it comes to Biden's classified documents and Hillary's server. CNN
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: and MSNBC did not take the speech live. What did
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: you make of this thing? It was so long and
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: so boring.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: And I actually felt bad for the people at Bedminster
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: who were I think trapped in the room and could
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: not get out and had to listen to it. It
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: was very reminiscent of his campaign announcement speech that he
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: did down at Mar-a-Lago. I think these speeches are basically
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: sort of catharsis and therapy for Trump, where he just
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: like spits out everything he's going to say. And then
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: there's one or two, like 30 second sound bites that
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: he has been told by his campaign staff that he
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: has to say. And you can see him just like
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: switch and start reading.
• 8:18
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: He goes, I mean, he's the least subtle teleprompter reader
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: in history where he's like this way and now this
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: way and then back this way. But in it, and
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: you know, I think there's no, he doesn't pay a
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: price for any of these speeches. No one sees them.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: CNN didn't, not that anyone would have seen him if
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: CNN didn't necessarily air them or certainly no one who's
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: going to make up their mind based on the speeches.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: So he just goes out, says his crazy things. And
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: then hopefully in the eyes of his campaign staff, the
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: one or two lines that matter to them are the
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: ones that get picked up by TV.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt bad for the crowd, too.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, to be fair, it's a collection of some
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: of the worst people in America, is my guess.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Get Out 2 will be filmed at Bedminster at
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the Trump rally. One piece of good news, such as
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: it is, there wasn't some massive crowd. There wasn't a
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: violent protest. Does it make you feel better? Do we
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: think the series of headlines about January 6th insurrectionists going
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: to jail kind of helps keep the Proud Boys away?
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: No, I think it's the fact that there's always another
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: indictment to attend if you're busy for this one.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: So it's like, it's like, it's like a band going
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: to a city too much.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: I can't make it to Miami, but I can probably
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: make it a Fulton County in August for that one.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Or I can make it to DC for the January
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: 6th one.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: An indictment a day keeps the proud boys away. The
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Miami police chief said he was preparing for 5,000 to 50,000 people,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: about 500 to 2000 showed up. I wonder, uh, if
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: the Delta was K-pop fans on TikTok buying other tickets.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: That was just a one-time thing.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Another esoteric reference, just a little more recent than the
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: one I just made. I mean, 2,000 people is not
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: nothing to show up.
• 9:52
  Speaker 6: No, it's not.
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: It's not.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Although there were some counter protesters, one of whom got
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: arrested for running in front of his car, I think
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: dressed up as like an old school burglar in like
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the stripes. Anyway, so as so often happens with Trump scandals,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: the first few days after he drops a new banger,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: the defenders kind of flail away with a number of,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: let's just say, creative responses and defenses. Here's sort of
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: a poo-poo platter of the bullshit that we all saw
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: on TV over the last couple days.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: I don't know, is it a good picture to have
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: boxes in a garage that opens up all the time?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: A bathroom door locks.
• 10:25
  Speaker 7: As somebody who's been to Mar-a-Lago, you just can't walk
• 10:28
  Speaker 7: through Mar-a-Lago of your own accord because Secret Service is
• 10:32
  Speaker 7: all over the place.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: There are 33 bathrooms at Mar-a-Lago.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: He really liked mementos. His office in New York spilled
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: with them.
• 10:41
  Speaker 8: And the letter from Kim Jong-un would fit into that.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: If he had cocaine in those boxes that were stacked up.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: In the ballroom, then maybe if he's running a cocaine
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: ring out of Mar-a-Lago, maybe they don't circle the wagons.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Joe could send Hunter to check that out.
• 10:56
  Speaker 9: Exactly.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: But he's not.
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: We're talking about a piece of paper.
• 11:01
  Speaker 9: What's happened to the public's trust in institutions is, I think,
• 11:06
  Speaker 9: far more significant than a bunch of documents being kept
• 11:10
  Speaker 9: sloppily in a bathroom.
• 11:12
  Speaker 8: We had a lady or a man that now claims
• 11:15
  Speaker 8: to be a lady, you know, going topless at the
• 11:17
  Speaker 8: White House two days ago at a pride celebration thing.
• 11:20
  Speaker 8: I mean, we can do whatever we want, can be
• 11:21
  Speaker 8: as decadent as we want in our society, in our culture.
• 11:23
  Speaker 8: We can break our politics. We can take our institution
• 11:26
  Speaker 8: and weaponize them for political purposes on both sides.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: You think this ends here?
• 11:30
  Speaker 8: The next Republican president is going to be under tremendous
• 11:32
  Speaker 8: pressure to bring charges and indict Joe Biden, his family,
• 11:36
  Speaker 8: his crackhead son, whoever.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: What a dickhead. That was Speaker Kevin McCarthy, Congressman Byron Donalds,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Byron York, a pundit, Fox News' Jesse Waters, then Laura
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Ingraham from Fox, and then finally Senator Marco Rubio. Dan,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: why won't the MSM cover any of the bathrooms that
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: did not have classified information next to the shitter?
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: I think that the Byron Donald's explanation was really pitch
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: perfect because how many bathrooms have you been in that
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: lock from the outside?
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: No, that was Kevin McCarthy.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: That was Kevin McCarthy?
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy thinks that the boxes got put in the
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: bathroom and then one of them stood up and either
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: latched the door or pressed a little button on the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: handle and that made it all safe.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: That was Kevin McCarthy who said that?
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: At the top. Yeah, Byron Donald's was the one. What
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: about the 33 bathrooms that weren't full?
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I also think, I'm surprised that 33 is, that seems
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: like a small number of bathrooms for Mar-a-Lago for me.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a public club.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Do people stay, like, I have to admit, I've tried
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: to learn as little as possible at Mar-a-Lago. Is it
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: like a hotel? Do people stay there?
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: I genuinely don't know. I think they probably have golf.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: They seem to have a pool from all the shots
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I see from above. They do a lot of events,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: sort of like a country club.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: YMCA cover band? also there.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Trump likes the DJ from his iPad. We've learned recently
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: from the sort of deck of the veranda.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: These are real fall of empire times happening right now.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, truly. But like, okay. So any of these arguments,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: you think they'll just abandon this? Like, does anyone going
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: to keep a ban defending the underlying conduct here? Or
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: do you think they're all just going to go to the,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: you know, this treatment of Trump is unfair as compared
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: to Biden and Hillary?
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I think they are going to continue to throw as
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: much shit at the wall as possible because the goal
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: is not really to persuade anyone. They're sort of two
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: target audiences for this group of yahoos who we just heard.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: One is people who want to be with Trump are
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: looking for any excuse to stick with them and defend them.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: And they will take anything. They will take the Presidential
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Records Act bullshit. They'll take the bathroom locks. They'll take
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden or what about just whatever it is. Just
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: so you just give them a Cheesecake Factory's menu worth
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: of options. And then the other group are the swing voters,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: not the right word, but sort of the voters who
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: end up deciding elections, the ones who are inherently skeptical
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: of the media, cynical about politicians, and they do not
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: engage deeply in the news. So they're not paying attention
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: to the differences between the Espionage Act and the Presidential
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Records Act. They don't know how the special counsel is
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: walled off from Merrick Garland and how the Justice Department
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: is walled off from the White House. And so They
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: just throw a bunch of shit out there, and then
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: these people will throw up their arms and say, I
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: don't know, I don't care, and they'll disengage on this
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: issue or from the election altogether. And so I think
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: that's what's happening here.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just bore everybody into not listening. Marco Rubio
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: brought up Brest for some reason. I don't know what's
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: wrong with him. I've felt that way for years. But
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: it's worth noting that about Trump's document retention, Rubio said,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: there's no allegation that there was harm done to the
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: national security. There's no allegation that it was sold to
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: a foreign power or that it was trafficked to someone
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: else or that anybody got access to it. about Hillary
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Clinton's email server back in the day. He said, mishandling
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: of classified information was disgraceful and unbecoming of someone who
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: aspires to the presidency. Actions were grossly negligent, damaged national security,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: and put lives at risk. So there you go.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Wait, are you saying Marco Rubio is full of shit?
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I think I am, Dan. I think I'm saying he's inconsistent.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: But the difference so far, maybe, is that there are
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: some Republicans, including some of Trump's 2024 opponents, who are
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: finding a spine Let's hear from a few.
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: If this indictment is true, President Trump was incredibly reckless
• 15:14
  Speaker 6: with our national security. More than that, I'm a military spouse.
• 15:17
  Speaker 6: My husband's about to deploy this weekend. This puts all
• 15:21
  Speaker 6: of our military men and women in danger.
• 15:24
  Speaker 10: I do have concerns about all the news about misuse
• 15:26
  Speaker 10: of classified information. I happen to be on the Senate
• 15:29
  Speaker 10: Intelligence Committee and I get classified briefings on a regular basis.
• 15:34
  Speaker 10: And What they did was unacceptable.
• 15:38
  Speaker 7: But I do think that even if half is true,
• 15:40
  Speaker 7: then he's toast. I mean, it's a very detailed indictment,
• 15:45
  Speaker 7: and it's very, very damning. And this idea of presenting
• 15:49
  Speaker 7: Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt,
• 15:52
  Speaker 7: is ridiculous.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: That was Dickie Haley, Senator John Cornyn, and Ralphie from
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: A Christmas Story, now all growed up, Attorney General Bill Barr. Dan,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: am I wrong to feel a little bit hopeful about
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the fact that there's a small but growing... I wouldn't
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: say it's a chorus yet. It's more of an a
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: cappella group worth of Republicans who aren't necessarily like never
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Trumpers who are willing to criticize his conduct in this case.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: In the past, nobody goes first, right? They don't want
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: to go first. And there's sort of a collective action problem.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I think that this is going to play out slightly
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: differently in the 2024 primary than the 2016 primary. I
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: think everyone.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: To some degree understands that to be the nominee, you're
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: going to have to beat Trump. Now, what a lot
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: of these people are doing, Nikki Haley, most notably, are
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: trying to calculate their chances of beating Trump versus their
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: chance of being Trump's VP. And so you're going to
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: see different approaches here. But I think people are beginning
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: to make a case. The problem is it's a mealy
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: mouth version of the case. And too often they are
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: already echoing Trump's primary talking points by essentially saying, yes,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden has weaponized the government to unfairly attack Donald Trump.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: But if Donald Trump did these things, that's bad. And
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: that's not a strong enough case. You can't reinforce Trump's
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: message narrative and then make the criticism. You just have
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: to make the criticism. You have to make it strongly.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair. Although, you know, I'm trying to find
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: a little hope here. Like sometimes politicians float arguments like this.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: They test the waters. They gauge the reaction before kind
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: of walking it back or going all in. Maybe that's
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: what's happening here, but I have to assume that everyone
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: in this case is pretty clear-eyed that the MAGA base
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: is going to hate even the lightest criticism. Mike Pence
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: is calling the allegations very serious. I think Tim Scott
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: said it's a serious case. Everyone is leaning, I think, rightly, frankly,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: on innocent until proven guilty because we do live in
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: a nation of laws here. But I don't know. It
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: does seem like they're dipping their toes in, but I
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: can't imagine them walking this back.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I agree with that. I think They have to recognize,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: and I think Ron DeSantis' fall from grace probably is
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: exhibit A of this, that you're going to have to
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: separate Trump from his base if you want to win.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: There's not a lane big enough for something else, so
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: you're going to have to go at it. And that
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: could be very politically painful in the short term, in
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: the long run, but it's your only chance.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: So the one 2024 candidate who is truly flailing away
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: at Trump is Chris Christie. He did a CNN town
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: hall the other night. Let's listen to a clip.
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: Do you believe President Biden has weaponized the Department of
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: Justice against Donald Trump with these indictments? You know, look,
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: I don't think so. Everyone's blaming the prosecutors. He did it.
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: It's his conduct. And let me ask you a question.
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: What exactly was he doing with them? Did someone remind
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: him he's not the president anymore? This is vanity run amok, Anderson.
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: Run amok. Ego run amok. And he is now going
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: to put this country through this. when we didn't have
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: to go through it. He wants to continue to pretend
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: he's president. He wants the trappings of the presidency around him.
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: And I think one of those trappings is these documents.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I am convinced that if he.
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: Goes back to the White House, that the next four
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: years will all be about him just settling scores. I'm
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: going to take him on directly. And not because I
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: don't like him. I'm going to take him on directly
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: because he's the leader. Like, how do you, I just
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: don't understand the other candidates who won't even mention his name.
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: I watched that Joni Ernst roast and ride thing. It
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: was like he was Voldemort from Harry Potter.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Say his name.
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: How do you beat someone if you won't talk about them?
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: How do you beat them if you won't distinguish yourself
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: from them? He hasn't won a damn thing since 2016.
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: Don't allow the showmanship to obscure the facts. The facts
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: are he lost.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: So, Dan, I mean, the vanity run amok expectations is interesting.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure I find it to be like the
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: most compelling argument. I love the criticism of Trump as
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: a loser. What do you think of this message?
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I think that Chris Christie's campaign is a Lincoln Project
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: ad come to life in the sense that you like it.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: I like it. Our friends on Twitter love it. But
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: every piece of research will show that Republican voters who
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: should be the target of it do not like it.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: And that is as much a messenger problem as it
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: is a message problem. Chris Christie has a minus 54
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: approval rating in a recent poll among Republicans. He is
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: a deeply, deeply unpopular individual.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Minus 54?
• 20:27
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: So he is only slightly more popular than, uh, Mike Pence,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: who was nearly murdered by his own voters. So that
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: gives you a sense of where he, where he is.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: There is a part of it that I think is
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: useful and could, I think it's a useful thing. Like
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: if someone wants to get up there and, and kick
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: the living shit out of Trump in a compelling way
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: that even if Chris Christie never gets a single delegate
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: in the Republican nomination, that has some value to either
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: defeating Trump in the primary or or serving as a
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: disqualifier for some more moderate, never Trump Republicans or Trump
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: skeptical Republicans who may view Christie more, he may not
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: be in that minus 54 cohort. So I think it's largely,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: I'm glad he's doing it. I just don't think it's
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: necessarily going to work.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad he's doing it too. He is also like,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: he's a compelling speaker. He's brash. You know, you're right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: If you have a negative 54 approval rating, you're probably
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: not the best messenger. But I have a thought experiment
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: for you, Dan.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: It's not a fun one. As we've discussed, there's a
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: polling threshold and a donor threshold that candidates have to
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: meet to get on the Republican debate stage. Let's say
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Chris Christie has met the polling threshold, but he hasn't
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: hit the 40,000 donor number that he needs to get
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: invited to the debate. Would you give him $ 1 and
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: encourage others to do so to get him on that stage?
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I'm calling this a Christie's choice.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: I don't think I would do it, and I don't
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: think I would encourage other people.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: To do it.
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: What?
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Fuck, I already did on Pod Save the World. Can
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: we cut that and redo it? I'm just kidding. Keep going.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of those things.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: One buck?
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: If people want to give him one buck, great. They
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: should do it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: When you spend it on your avocado toast and your latte,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: you liberal, just give him a dollar. Get him on
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: that stage.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I'm recording this in Boston right now. I've got to
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: hit a Dunkin'. Yeah, you've got to hit a Dunkin'. Look,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: if people want to do it, fine. The debate will
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: be more interesting, for us at least, if he is
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: on stage. So, great.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: And let's be honest, who knows if Trump will be
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: on that stage at all. He might refuse the debate.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, so then what, like, that'd be such a boring,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: stupid debate. Maybe they'll kick the shit out of Ron DeSantis,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: but probably not. Maybe they'll all just kick the shit
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: out of Trump in absentia, which is going to make
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: them look even weaker.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: So maybe they'll pick someone funny to kick the shit
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: out of. Just like Vivek Ramaswamy just gets his ass
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: handed to him for like two hours and then everybody wins.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: We'll see.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. And when you
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: come back, you'll hear Dan's conversation with legal expert and
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: co-host of Crooked Media's amazing legal analysis podcast, Strict Scrutiny.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: You'll hear from Leah Littman. So stick around for that.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Joining us now to talk about the Trump indictment is
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: our resident legal expert and the co-host of Crooked's fantastic
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: legal podcast, Leah Littman.
• 23:19
  Speaker 10: Leah.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Leah.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to the pod.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I listened this morning to the emergency strict scrutiny episode
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: that you and Kate Shaw did in response to the
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: details of the indictment and the arraignment. I encourage everyone
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: to listen to it. It is great. But I have
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: some follow-up questions for you. So I'm so glad you're here.
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: Let's do it.
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Let's just start with the real basics here. Donald Trump
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: has been arraigned. He's been given a set of release guidelines,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: things he can and can't do. What happens next?
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: So the initial next steps are going to be a
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: series of discovery processes as well as pre-trial motion. So
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: discovery basically means that the government will be exchanging evidence
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: with the defense counsel and defendant in order to kind
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: of show them what they have. The prosecution also has
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: an obligation under the Supreme Court's decision in Brady v.
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: Maryland to turn over any evidence or material that might
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: be exculpatory to the defense. So basically any evidence that's
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: favorable to Trump and suggests he might not be guilty.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: There might not be any of this, but who knows?
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: And then aside from that, the defense will probably start
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: to file motions seeking either access to certain documents if
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: the prosecution isn't turning them over or seeking to challenge
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: various aspects of the prosecution's case, maybe saying it's legally
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: insufficient or other bases to basically prevent the trial from
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: going forward. But that's basically what we're looking at next.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: How much does it complicate things that some of the
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: evidence in this trial includes some of America's most highly
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: classified documents?
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: That's likely to complicate things considerably, particularly as part of
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: the prosecution's obligations to turn over evidence that they have,
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: as well as negotiations between the prosecution and the defense
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: to turn over other evidence as well. As we noted
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: during the emergency episode, it's not clear that Trump has
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: yet secured a lawyer that has the requisite clearance to
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: look at some of these materials. And so there might
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: be some delay in finding, you know, a lawyer who
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: could do such a thing or obtaining some permission from
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: the government for one of the lawyers to access the information,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: but that is likely to lead to additional delays. There
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: may also be squabbles over like what sort of procedures
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: or restrictions, you know, the court can put on the
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: defense's ability to look at the evidence or have it.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: And so that's likely to happen as well.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I would say I was more than a little disturbed
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: to hear Kate on your episode say that she felt
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: pretty confident that this case would get pushed past the
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: 2024 election. Is that your feeling as well?
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: It is, but that's partially because of the judge who
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: is overseeing it. And it's also partially because You know,
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: there are going to be some legal issues that courts
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: probably haven't confronted before because there hasn't been, you know,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: a prosecution of a former president who kept classified secret
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: documents in bathrooms, you know, after the federal government was
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: trying to take them back. So, you know, it's not
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: like that judge can just point to, well, here's a
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: case that said, you know, no, former presidents can't just
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: keep classified secret documents like strewn about the bathroom and
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: wave their hands saying some things about the Presidential Records Act.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: And also because this judge has shown, Judge Aileen Cannon,
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: that she is more than willing to kind of go
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: out of her way to be indulgent, you know, too
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: much so of Trump's legal strategies and legal arguments. And
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: so those are the two things that lead me to
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: think this is probably not going to be settled before
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: the 2024 election. Of course, you know, there might be surprises.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: Sometimes that happens. But yeah, I kind of agreed with
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: Kate's prediction.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Is there an argument or a legal process that Jack
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Smith can follow to try to expedite the trial here,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: given the very real one that the voters should have
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: a say here, but also that Trump, if reelected, could
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: pardon himself?
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: I mean, of course. The special counsel, just based on
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: the length of the indictment, the fact that it is
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: a speaking indictment that laid out all of the evidence
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: in very clear fashion, it seems like that office is
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: really trying to make the process and this case as
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: easy and as simple as possible. So of course, right,
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: they can try to expeditiously and clearly, right, respond to
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: whatever requests, you know, Trump's lawyers are going to make
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: and say, no, right, that's not warranted, right, this is bananas.
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: And like, here are all of the reasons why. And
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: they can try to move the case along a similar
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: timeline as other cases in that particular jurisdiction, which again,
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: is among the faster areas for handling cases in the
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: United States. So yes, of course, they can respond to
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: motions that Trump's counsel may file. They can make requests
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: of the court and propose their own timelines. But at
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: the end of the day, the schedule is going to
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: be determined by the district judge overseeing this case who
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: has very limited experience with criminal cases, and certainly no
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: experience with criminal cases that involve really novel facts and
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: a host of legal issues that haven't been presented to
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: courts before, and again, is pretty indulgent of Donald Trump
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: thus far in related litigation.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, when you say limited experience in criminal trials,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: isn't it four trials that last a total of 14
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: days in her career?
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: Yes, that is the limited experience I was referring to. Now,
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: of course, she hasn't been on the bench that long.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: She was kind of confirmed in the lame duck session
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: in 2020. But yeah, she does not have a ton
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: of criminal law experience.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: The ultimate decision of recusal starts with her, but Jack
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Smith could try to force it by appealing above her.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Is that correct? And do you think he should do that?
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Or is he stuck between this terrible choice between trying
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: to get a more experienced, potentially less biased judge and
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: further delaying this likely to be delayed case?
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: So he could first ask Judge Cannon, and if she refuses,
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: seek what's called a writ of mandamus from the Court
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: of Appeals. And if that fails, ask the Supreme Court.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: But in addition to the delay factors that you note,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: and if the special counsel wants this case to proceed quickly,
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: then that would operate... intention with any recusal requests. I think, again,
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: given Judge Cannon's willingness to bend the law to favor
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: Donald Trump, the government is, and this is going to
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: sound scary, kind of relying once again on the 11th Circuit,
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: which is a very conservative court of appeals, and the U.S.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: Supreme Court, which is also supermajority justices appointed by Republican presidents.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: Those are the two courts that they are relying on
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: to basically police Judge Cannon's abuse of the law. And
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: the government needs to be able to maintain credibility and
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: not annoy those courts and those judges and justices in
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: the event that Judge Cannon does something insane, and they
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: need to ask one of those courts to intervene. And
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: it's that posture that makes it really difficult for lawyers
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: in general and federal government lawyers in particular to sound
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: the alarms about what is happening with our courts because
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: they need to maintain a posture under which they're not
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: really pushing any of the federal court's buttons or annoying
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: them too much.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: One time when you were on the show during a
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: previous potential indictment of President Trump, I asked you to
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: pretend to be his legal defense attorney. I am not
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: going to do that again. I still feel bad about
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: that to this day. But I think we should all remember,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: particularly those of us who get everything we know about
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: law from your podcast, that the indictment is essentially the
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: government's best case, right? Does not include exculpatory evidence. It
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: does not include what Trump's defenses could be. What do you,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: so there have to be some holes in this case, theoretically.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: What do you, where do you think Trump's, when he,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: if and when he finds a defense attorney, what do
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: you think that defense will be?
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: I think the defense is going to focus on few
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: different things. One is similar to what we talked about
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: last time. There's probably going to be some allegations. And
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: to be clear, I think they're unsubstantiated and unsupported, but
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: allegations of prosecutorial misconduct and that this is basically political
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: retribution and a political prosecution. So that's going to be
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: one angle. I think that a second angle is probably
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: going to be you know, some version of the argument
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: we heard in Trump's post arraignment speech slash campaign event,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: which was also the line of argument he pursued before
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: judge cannon in an earlier round of litigation in this case,
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: which is that these documents are somehow his and, you know,
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: they're kind of invoking the presidential records act, which makes
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: no sense. Um, Previous times they've suggested he declassified them,
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: or there's going to be some kind of variation of
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: this argument where they're going to say basically all of
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: the documents created by any federal agency are prepared for
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: the president and the president owns them and can kind
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: of do what he wants with them. Again, this argument
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: makes no sense of the law and is absolutely insane,
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: but we'll probably see some variation of that. And then
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: the third is on those charges that actually require the
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: government to show that that President Trump knowingly, you know,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: defied the government's orders or knowingly, you know, concealed and
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: refused to give over classified secret information, we'll probably hear
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: challenges that, oh, he didn't actually know that or he
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: didn't actually understand that he didn't have the legal authority
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: to possess that. That's why, you know, the recorded audio
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: conversation of him admitting, I know I can't actually declassify
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: this is so damning and important, but Those would be
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: my early predictions about what we're likely to see.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Do you think they will try to get his attorney's
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: notes thrown out?
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: So they are also certainly going to challenge some of
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: the evidence underlying the obstruction of justice charges, in particular,
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: relate to conversations that Donald Trump had with his lawyers,
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: during which he basically told the lawyers, don't comply with
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: this subpoena, or can we just hide the documents, or
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: something like that. And of course, they are likely to
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: assert that any conversations and directives between Trump and his
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: lawyers are privileged and subject to attorney-client privilege. Now, in
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: another case in D.C., a district judge concluded that even
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: though the conversations were between Trump and his lawyer, those
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: conversations were not protected by attorney-client privilege because they fell
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: within what's known as the crime-fraud exception, where if you
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: are committing a crime with your lawyer or using your
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: lawyer in furtherance of a crime, that's not privileged But
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Judge Cannon will basically decide that anew here. And so
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: that will also probably be a challenge to the government's
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: ability to use some evidence or some theories to support
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: an obstruction charge as well as some others.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I will say a lot of legal terms can be
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: obscure and confusing, but the crime fraud acceptance, particularly well-named
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: piece of legal jargon.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, very apt here.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Yes. Trump obviously has a very full dance card when
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: it comes to his legal entanglements. He has a trial
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: scheduled around a civil investigation into his businesses in New York.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: He has his other indictments scheduled for next March. We
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: are looking at potentially two more indictments in the coming months.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Does this indictment in this case affect the timing of
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: his New York case? Attorney General James in New York
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: at a Positive America show on Monday night suggested it
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: could affect both her case against the Trump organization and
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Alvin Bragg's indictment against Trump on the hush money payments?
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: I mean, it absolutely could. You can imagine, right, Trump's
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: defense lawyers saying, you know, we cannot be defending, you know,
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: three proceedings simultaneously and basically asking for continuances from Some,
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: you know, on the other hand, committing a bunch of
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: different crimes and being charged with all of them is
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: not exactly supposed to be a defense to, you know,
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: any one particular trial or proceeding. But I do think
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: that courts, again, because they are giving him additional process
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: and additional protections, given, you know, the importance of these proceedings, um,
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: It's likely that if there is some conflict between the
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: timeline of these cases, that they will basically allow him
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: to delay some of the proceedings while others play out.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes when we have you on the show, for reasons
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: unrelated to Trump's criminality, it is about terrible things the
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court has done or is about to do. Today,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: they actually did something good. Could you explain the somewhat
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: surprising and very important decisions the Supreme Court made today?
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: So the court in large part upheld the Indian Child
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: Welfare Act. It turned away two major challenges to that
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: federal law that contains a bunch of really important protections
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: for Native families that make it more difficult to break
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: up Native families and more difficult to place Native children
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: outside of Native communities. Now, it is surprising in the
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: sense that the court often does shitty, bad, flawless things.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Um, but that would be the rule. This would be
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: the exception, I guess.
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Um, but on this particular challenge, based on how the
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: oral argument went, um, we did expect that the court
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: was going to rule against those challenges. Now, technically it
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: didn't rule on two other challenges. Um, one of which
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: is the equal protection challenge. Um, that maintained that the
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: Indian Child Welfare Act by protecting Native Americans actually engaged
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: in unconstitutional race discrimination. And what the court said is
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: we're not going to address that challenge because the plaintiffs
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: in this case aren't actually injured by the relevant provisions
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: in the Indian Child Welfare Act that contain these placement preferences.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: And Justice Kavanaugh wrote a concurrence that was like, well,
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: you know, if there were such a case that ever
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: came before the court, you know, it's possible that I
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: might rule for this equal protection challenge and invalidate parts
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: of ICWA. But, you know, the court, again, turned away
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: major challenges to ICWA and upheld the statute to the
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: extent it addressed the challenges. So that is happy, welcome news.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: And not to claim too much credit, but I will
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: just point out that strict scrutiny went to D.C. last
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: week for the live show. And ever since then, the
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: court has basically been behaving. So is that causation? Is
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: that correlation? I'm not sure, but of note.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I think that's notable. I think maybe you should get
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: back to D.C. since there are decisions on affirmative action,
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus rights, and a whole bunch of other things
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: that the Supreme Court could drop on our head any day.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: Indeed. Usually I'm the downer, but that one was from you.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's very rare there is a conversation
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: with two people where I am not the downer. So
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: I fell into my natural role here. Okay, Leah Lipman,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us. We will talk
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: to you again soon.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: Sounds good.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: All right, before we go, we did also want to
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: talk about California Governor Gavin Newsom's hour-long interview with Fox
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: News host Sean Hannity. Here is a sampling of how
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: it went.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: I will tell you, on every measure, from the economy, inflation, borders, energy,
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: national security, he's missing in action. Let's talk about them
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: in order.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Let's hang on.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: Wait, but I want to challenge the premise. You said
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: the economy, 13.1 million jobs. He's created more.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: These are post-COVID jobs.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: You know that. That's an artificial number.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: Then let me just let me stipulate this as an
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: as an opportunity to engage civilly on this.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: OK, fair point.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Your president, Donald Trump, lost 2.6 million jobs during his
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: four years. We've created 13.1 million. Fine, you can maintain
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: a COVID frame. How about the fact that Joe Biden's
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: created more jobs, six times more jobs than the previous
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: three Republican presidents combined? I think he's a man of
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: decency and character. I'm really proud of the president, proud
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: of what he's accomplished in the last few years.
• 40:07
  Speaker 9: Is he strong enough to be president?
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Strong enough.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: Look what he just did to McCarthy. He ran in circles.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Look at the vote card.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't like the vote.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have voted for it.
• 40:15
  Speaker 9: Exactly.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Kevin got played by the president of the United States.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: You would do a two-hour debate with Ron DeSantis.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: I'd make it three.
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: Three-hour debate.
• 40:23
  Speaker 10: Yeah, make it.
• 40:23
  Speaker 6: Do I have four?
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Do it with one-day notice with no notes. I look
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: forward to that.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm a border state. Ron DeSantis is not. I
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: know he's desperate to get in on the action.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: No, because a lot of people.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: He's belly flopped. Donald Trump is going to clean his clock.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: Is it fair that Joe Biden? DeSantis has belly flopped.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: He will clean his clock. He needs attention. And he
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: set this up months ago by doing an RFP. I
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: have the contractors that he tried to hire saying he
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: was going to send people to California.
• 40:49
  Speaker 9: This is a stunt.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: It's embarrassing.
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: It's pathetic.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: I like how Hannity crumples up paper whenever Gavin is
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: doing well in that conversation. Dan, let's divide this into
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: two parts, performance and then the venue. How do you
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: think Gavin did in terms of his performance?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: He was great. He was really, really good. He was prepared.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: He was crisp. Other than that one use of the
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: term RFP, he spoke like a normal human, explained things
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: in very easy to understand ways. I think he dealt
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: with the Biden age question in the most easily understood
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: way possible, particularly with this audience. If Biden is not strong,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: why did he just run circles around Kevin McCarthy and
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: the debt ceiling deal, which worked really well because Sean
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Hannity opposed the debt ceiling deal. And so it was very,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: very well done.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was so much better prepared for this interview
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: than Sean Hannity was, even though Sean had his little
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: charts in his brown paper bag. But Gavin had command
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: of the facts. He pushed back hard. I thought he
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: was civil and thoughtful. He didn't seem defensive. When Hannity
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: started pressing him on homelessness numbers in California, Gavin said
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: the status quo is disgraceful. He was just very honest
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: about that. The tone, though, was positive and impressive. I
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: think it's worth noting that What Fox News did with
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: that performance was turn around and use Gavin's performance to
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: contrast with Biden to make Biden look old. Now, Gavin
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Newsom can't control that, but that's just what Fox does.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: I spent some time with Gavin Newsom fairly recently. I'll
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: be honest, I went into it feeling like, I'm not
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: really sure about this guy. I don't know what I
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: think about him. I came out really impressed. He clearly
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: works his ass off. He has... in private conversations and
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: on TV, he is fact like this at his fingertips
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: at all times. He memorizes a lot of stuff cause
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: he's dyslexic. Uh, and this is how he, he works.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: He just commits things to memory. Um, as you and
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I know, Dan, uh, having lots of facts and statistics
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: available to you, uh, as a communicator can cut both ways.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: We do, we saw Obama do really well with this
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: and not, but in this case, he really did well
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: with Hannity. I also think like Gavin is, super competitive.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: He wants Democrats to be tough. He wants to win.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: You can tell that he hates Ron DeSantis' guts. Anyone
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: who wants to spend three hours with that guy at
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: a debate or anywhere else has something going on. He
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: is very worried about the information bubbles. I think he
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: said it to Hannity in his interview, and he clearly
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: watches Fox all the time. I told Gavin that I
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: would like to see him go on Joe Rogan's show
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: because I think Rogan's got a big audience of people
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: who were far more likely to be persuaded than the
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: typical Fox voter. But that gets us to this question
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: of why do you think he did Hannity? And do
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: you think that's the right venue?
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: I am someone who has been pretty skeptical of Democrats
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: spending their time going on Fox, largely for the reason
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: you said, which is even if you do great in
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: the moment, they will take what you say, cut it
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: up and weaponize it on all the 23 other hours
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: of the day that where they're trying to destroy democracy
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: in America. But in this case, I think there are
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: some exceptions to the Democrats don't go on Fox rule.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: And that is for a certain number of communicators who
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: are talented enough and have a plan to go in
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: there and win the fight and win the fight in
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: a way that will go viral beyond just the people
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: who happen to be tuning into Hannity at that time
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: at night, because none of those people are persuadable. Just
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: there was very few of them. The odds that any
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: of them live in a battleground state are quite small,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: but because he did it and he did it well,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: it went viral and got attention elsewhere and people will
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: consume it by osmosis on social media through other coverage.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: And so I think it was the right thing to do.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: And what you want to do in this sort of
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: disaggregated media environment is do things that get attention beyond
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: the people who are watching the moment in which you
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: do it. And so he had a plan to do
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: it and he did it well.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think in 2020, there was this
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: big controversy about whether Democrats should go on Fox News
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: and do these special town halls they were creating. And
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: I think what's gotten forgotten about that debate was that
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: it happened in the midst of a major effort to
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: get advertisers to boycott Fox. And that's why people were
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: so pissed about it. But this broader question of like
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: whether Democrats should go on Fox or not is not
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: a new one. We struggled with this in 2009. I
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: agree with you. I think what made Gavin's interview so
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: smart and compelling was it won't just reach those Hannity viewers,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: but it became like a media event that was covered
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: unto itself. And that will get his brand out. It'll
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: get the message out. If I worked at the White House,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: would I advise Joe Biden to do Fox News? No,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: because I think ultimately, like there's more downside than upside.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: And when the chips are down, we know that Fox
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: is going to go all in for the Republican Party.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: We read all the Dominion emails about what they really
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: think about the call in 2020 for the election. We
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: saw the other night they called they called Biden a
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: wannabe dictator in a chyron. I'm not sure that's the
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: most like level even handed place. But I agree with you.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: I think surrogates should go on. I think Democrats should
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: go on who are ready to push back hard and
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: do it with a smile. But I do think to
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: your point in like big picture, I agree. Like Fox
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: News is not really the audience I'm worried about. The
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: average Hannity viewer is probably like 70 years old and
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: super conservative and not about to change. The people I
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: think about a lot are like disaffected voters who feel
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: like politics is lame, a waste of time. All politicians
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: are the same. So why even bother? And I think
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: increasingly you see polling where there's young men of all
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: races falling into this category, the kind of like Joe
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Rogan kind of barstool sports category. fans demographic. And I
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: think if you want to persuade people who are skeptical
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: and hard to reach, I think you need to make
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: a push there and just help those people understand that
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: like politics isn't annoying people who annoy you on Twitter
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: or cable news from both sides. It's like you vote
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: for the person who sends your buddy to Iraq or not.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: You vote for the person who says your mom with
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: breast cancer has a preconditioned uh, and, and can't get
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: healthcare or the person who fixes that problem and allows
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: your mom who had breast cancer to get health insurance. Or,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: you know, you vote for someone who thinks that trans
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: kids should be treated like human beings, like everyone else
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: in this country or not. And I think finding those
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: people and talking to them about kind of like the
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: underlying stakes of politics are what is so important and
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: making them understand that no, all politicians are not the same.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Like we're all smart people. We can all figure out
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: where they stand on things and figure out who is
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: making choices that matter to you. I think getting to
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: those folks is the hardest part of politics. It's not
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: even the message. It's like the delivery mechanism.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know, I don't
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: disagree with you that I don't think Joe Biden should
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: go on Fox per se. I think there really is,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: there's this question about going, why are you going on Fox?
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Are you going on Fox to reach some sort of,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: mythical Fox viewing open to Democrat voter, that's a mistake.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Thinking they're like, Brett Baer is going to give you
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: a fair shot or some stupid shit like that.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: What if you do it to get a reservation at
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Cafe Milano? Is that a good reason?
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Sorry, keep going. Is he still allowed there? I guess
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: he probably is.
• 47:59
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: God knows.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: But I think if you... Joe Biden... I'm not saying
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: he should do Fox. I just want to stipulate that.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: But some of his best moments are when he's mixing
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: it up with Republicans during the State of the Union.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: So in the course of this... campaign as it unfolds
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: over the next year and a half here. Some moments
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: like that. I think when he gets into a little
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: bit of argument or something with Peter Doocy during either
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Q & As or press conferences or whatever, he usually
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: comes off pretty good, I think. I mean, I even
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: thought when he called him a son of a bitch,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: that was pretty good too. He seems human and real
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: and on his game. And so finding some moments of
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: conflict like that, you don't want to give Sean Hannity
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: or the rest of these yahoos, the president of the
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: United States, which would be a huge boost for them
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: ratings wise and advertising dollar wise. But there is something
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: in what Gavin Newsom did that also works for Biden.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: So Joe Biden should go on Newsmax and start the
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: interview like, listen, you piece of shit, kind of go
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: from there. Just have a super viral moment.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Just grab the guy by his collars and just say,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: listen to me.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: Just shake him. Have a Secret Service guy come in
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: and take care of him. I think that's great advice.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I hope Ben LeBold is listening to this right now.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: He never misses an episode.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: He's got nothing better to do. Dan, last question for
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: you before we let you go. Uh, listeners probably know
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: that you're like a famous YouTube star and you do
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: this show called like experts react or some shit like that.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: And I've been doing this really fun new show on
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: YouTube with my friend, Brian Tyler Cohen, where we, you know,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: we draft and rank fun things like the greatest campaign
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: gaffes in history. It's called liberal tears. And for some
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: reason you keep attacking us on your show, which is,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: you know, far more people watch it. And I'm just
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: wondering how Why you feel the need to gatekeep YouTube
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: and what Brian did to you to get us to
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: this place and how we can kind of fix it.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Is your show, what is your show called again? I
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: thought it was.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Liberal Tears, but T-I-E-R-S.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, that was called Brian's Coattails.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Oh my God. He is like a YouTube.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: He is a gigantic YouTube star.
• 49:57
  Speaker 10: Yes.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Look, I love your show. It's great. We look, we
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: have a little fun competition around here. You know, I'm
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: just trying to, I'm just trying to keep up.
• 50:04
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 50:05
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Well, look, the next episode is coming out on Wednesday,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: June 21st. It features some truly sadistic punishments for the
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: loser of our competition in the previous episode. I spent
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: the morning borrowing my to wipe a off my fucking back.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: So make sure you subscribe to the Positive America YouTube.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: And if Dan keeps coming after us, Elon, if you're
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: listening because Dan is trying to deplatform us, we are
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: willing to take the Tucker Carlson deal and take the
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: show to Twitter.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Like, I think that's a great pitch. If you love sadism,
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: watch that show.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you very much. I still have fucking anyway.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Final note. We just wanted to say a big thank
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: you to our amazing producer, Andy Gardner-Birdstein. This is her
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: last week. She has been a critical part of the
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: team that works their asses off long hours to make
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: this show happen. We are incredibly grateful to her. to
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: everybody that works here, but incredibly grateful to Andy in
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: this moment, and we'll miss her and just want to
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: say thank you.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: You know Andy because of the sock puppets, but Andy
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: has done an incredible job on this show, helping us
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: make the show that we want to make, helping us
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: return to having a lot of fun on this show.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: She has been a huge asset to Crooked Media and
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America, and we're going to miss her.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Damn right, and those sock puppets were just incredible. I mean,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: they looked, they were uncanny. How do you make a
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: sock puppet that good? Anyway, well, that's it for this
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: week's episode. I'm about to get in the car and
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: just drive over to John's house and just sort of
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: like ladle soup into his mouth or something. We're going
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: to baby bird him back to health. So we'll let
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: you go, Dan, and talk to everybody. We have no
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: episode Tuesday because it's Juneteenth. So I think the next
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: episode is Thursday.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our producers are Andy Gardner Bernstein
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Madeline Herringer,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Mia Kelman,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Ben Hefko, and David Tolles.
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: Subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Content, and other community events. Find us at youtube.com slash
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: at podsaveamerica.