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Earth's Toxic Twin: An Interview About Venus With Professor Martha Gilmore · PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it was.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: It really was.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was the highlight of my day.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm inspired.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm I'm fired up.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta go read about Venus now.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I've always been a fan of Venus because you know, uh, Venus is just it's a hostile place.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so it's intriguing from that standpoint.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, our interview, she so Dr.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Gilmore is a planetary geologist, and you're gonna go through her CV here in a minute.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just do that.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all right, let's do it.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Do it.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let me just go through the whole thing because it's more impressive, you know.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so this is Professor Martha Gilmore that we got the the great pleasure of interviewing, and she is the George Seney Professor of Geology at Wesleyan University.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: She got her, you know, I mean, her resume is unbelievable.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: PhD from Brown University, bachelor's from Franklin and Marshall College.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: She's been elected a fellow of the Geological Society of America.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: She's won the Baromary Award from the Geological Society.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: She was even a space advisor to the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: She's given dozens and dozens of public lectures, billions of dollars of grants funded, a true Venus expert.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I could go on and on and on and on, but she's just inspired like interesting, enthusiastic, and inspiring.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of sums it up for me.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And intimidating.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I forgot intimidating that one too.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: You and I always give uh introductions to each other, and it it's kind of pathetic in light of the CV that you just read.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't really want to do that right now.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we should just say, hey, my name is Chris and your name is Jesse, and here we go.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's good enough.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: You're Chris.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jesse.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: You taught me geology, and we don't need to go into too many more details about it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's depressing to do that.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: So Martha, I she's hold on.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: I want to back up though.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: You said she is the something sceney, say that again.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: The George Seney professor of geology.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I alright, I don't understand this.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, when I say my name is Chris Bullheisen, I'm a teacher of high school at Hudsonville.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's no name that precedes that.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not like the George Washington teacher of of Hudsonville science.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So these are typically most universities have like named professorships, and they're named for somebody who gave a bunch of money, but they're fancy.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're fancy professors.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: So at Penn State, we have the Evan Pugh professors, which are like the top, top, top in the university.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure what the George Sini one is at Wesleyan, uh, but it's so can I give myself a title then?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: Can I be the the Norman Bowen?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, because these are for fancy people, these are for fancy professors, not for Chris Blice.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: So no, you may not want to be fancy.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: No, you may not, Chris.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: I can't really be fancy.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's get back to it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this was cool.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: We talked a lot about Venus.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about the missions that she's involved in that have been funded to go study Venus and this, like we're kind of embarking on this revolution in our understanding of Venus.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was that was worth it for me right there.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Totally cool.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: To me, um her response to like you know, the importance of her job of like, you know, she's answering questions about, you know, a planet that is like Earth but very, very unlike Earth, and trying to answer questions about Earth then using that data is uh I I don't know.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: I just I guess I never really thought about it that way before.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes her job and the people that do that job very important.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Totally, totally.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And Venus, as you said, it's an aggressive place, it's a very it's a very fun place to think about because it is not nice.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, so down here on Earth, we have on every square inch of our body 14.7 pounds of atmospheric pressure pushing on us, you know.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's per per square inch, 14.7 pounds per square inch everywhere.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: And Venus is almost a hundred times that.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's a crushing pressure, then, you know, and then the temperatures and the chemical composition.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: This is a it's a hostile place.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Venus is no joke to study.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, all right, Chris, let's get to it.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Interview with Professor Martha Gilmore coming at you.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Professor Gilmore, welcome to Planet Geo.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be here, Jesse.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is my first podcast.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, well, I'm shocked that that's the case.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know I am too, actually.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm but let's back up a minute.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Professor Martha Gilmore, you're the George Seney Professor of Geology at Wesleyan University.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uh you have, I'm just looking at your CV right now, and I mean you've won a ton of awards.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: GSA, Geological Society of America, that is, Connecticut Geological Society.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: You're like a member or a committee member and advisory board of like basically every planetary exploration community.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still scrolling right now.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: I've been scrolling for about five minutes on the talks you've given, the pro awards you've won, the proposals you've had funded.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can't believe this is the first podcast.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is amazing.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so the pressure's on.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm nervous now.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: This is fun.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, cool.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, should we just jump in, Jesse?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's do it.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, Marty, first question for you is from what I've gathered, uh, you entered geology and astronomy at a very young age.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: So after middle school, you entered the second class of the Mary Baldwin College program for the exceptionally gifted, and you passed a high school equivalency exam at the age of 14.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: You're later applied to Franklin and Marshall College for Geology and Astronomy.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: Is that correct?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that that is all correct.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm still in shock that that information is available on the web somehow.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where it came from, but it's all true.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Chris isn't creepy.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he didn't spend hours, you know, researching your anything.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: But suffice to say, I mean, we you're way, way smarter than well, certainly Chris and definitely me.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, yes, that's true.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: We have we have the pleasure of interviewing a lot of smart people on this podcast, but um, this is you got the GED at 14.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: How old were you when you actually entered college, Marty?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this program at Mary Baldwin College, which is now Mary Baldwin University, is now 35 years old.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: We just had our 35th year reunion.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a it's a women's college, and the directors of this program wanted to set up a place where girls, I mean, we were girls, we were 13, could come and be accelerated through high school and college.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so my mother, who was very active in gifted education in I'm from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, right down the street from you guys.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, cool.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I grew up.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So she discovered this program and my parents sent me there.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I spent two years there and spent by the second year, we were taking college courses.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I gotta tell you, it's sound, I mean, it's it's an amazing program.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds very very impressive, but um, you know, introbio is, you know, at the college level and the high school level, I mean, it doesn't take it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was it was very wonderful to be able to take biology as a college course and and get started on the science um early and other things.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I took Welsh, I went to Wales.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well okay.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: My best friend from grad school is Welsh, and he will very much appreciate that you took Welsh.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's very difficult language.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Elite education in America teaches you Welsh, apparently.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's that's amazing.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: So we always ask the people that we interview on this podcast, because you know, when I decided to go into geology, Marty, there was a very defining moment.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it was a just a cool experience that I had, and I I knew right away.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have a moment like that where you knew that you were gonna go into some aspect of geoscience?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was in West Virginia.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So in the summer, I went to some kids went to sleepover camp.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I went to sleepover nerd camp.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually went to a program where we took classes.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I was in, I was in seventh grade.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is a program out of Johns Hopkins called CTY, uh Center for Talented Youth, which still exists.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to be an astronomer since I first saw Carl Sagan on TV.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, I saw Cosmos, remember that show?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And Voyager was going out and sent and looking at the outer moons, and I was like, oh, this is the best thing ever.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to my nerd camp and I sat in my astronomy class, and I was like, this math is awful, and this physics is too much.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where are the images?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's all just photon.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and so the next year I took a geology class, and in the four weeks we were there, we had a field trip to West Virginia, um, through Pennsylvania down to the Appalachians.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was standing on an outcrop in West Virginia, looking over the mountains and some uh fold and thrust belts.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, this is it.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is it.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be the fact that you can grab a rock that you can, you know this, you can go and gather a rock, and that piece of history is in your hand.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: That it just it still is just I love it.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't it amazing, Marty?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: When you pick up a rock, the information that you can get from that rock in such a short period of time.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's an amazing amount of information that you can get.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I agree, that's one of the things I love about it is you just the story that it has to say.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it tells you a story about a planet that's not quite the same as our planet is today.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a jewel.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just sometimes it is a jewel, but it's just but the the reason I'm a planetary geologist is because my geology teacher at this camp for 14-year-olds, 13-year-olds.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: So how old were you?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: You were you were 13 or 14?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was I was this was 12, 12, 13, 14, these three summers I went.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um sorry.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: I also took paleontology.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh but oh fossils.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh fossils, too complicated.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Life is too complicated, that's for sure.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but my geology teacher at this camp said there is this field called planetary geology, and it's kind of new.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: It looks at the geology and other planets, and so at the age of 14, after going to West Virginia and having this wonderful teacher, I decided on my career that was it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's that's amazing.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Marty, I I don't like to give Chris many compliments in general or on this podcast, but he was that teacher for me, and I was about the same age.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was like 13, 14, and I was like, holy crap, this is so cool! I mean, like, what a cool thing.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: This whole geoscience field is just amazing, right?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: You clearly have not lost that passion.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of amazing.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you are really widely regarded as like one of the true experts on Venus in our field.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: So can you?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like a lot of people know a bit about Mars, the red planet, you know.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Can you give us like a like a quick dirty like summary of Venus?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like what is it?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like what's give us like the five main or three or five main points about like what Venus is, why it's kind of the basics of it.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, why is Venus cooler than Mars?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, in a nutshell, it is because Venus is the same size as the Earth.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you too know, and uh people who think about it.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Don't assume we may not.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: Don't assume anything about Jesse.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the amount of heat that a planet has is related to its size.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so the fact that Earth is active now with active volcanism and plate tectonics, just by virtue of its size, Venus should be in that same state.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas Mars did its thing long ago.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mars did really cool stuff, don't get me wrong.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I love me some Mars, man.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, Mars is great.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: But if we want to control for some of the, if we want to understand an Earth-like planet, then we have to look at another Earth-size planet, right?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: An Earth, I should say, Earth-size planet.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And luckily, in terms of, I guess, socializing Venus, is luckily for all of us, we live in this time when there are exoplanets, you know, everywhere.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the fact that we can, you know, I can tell my sons that there's a planet around every star that you see in the sky is amazing.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that amazing?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is amazing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that was it really is.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was the case when we were little, but we didn't know it was the case.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: You're right.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: So Venus is kind of the same size as Earth.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it kind of has the same like internal heat.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is that kind of what you're saying?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's a second planet from the sun, but there's some differences.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are the can you kind of summarize like the bullet points of Venus?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it is hot, it has a really dense carbon dioxide atmosphere.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that atmosphere, because carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, it traps a lot of heat and it drives the surface temperature up to um, I never know things in Fahrenheit in my science.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's 450 Celsius.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's good enough.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's challenging because we can't see the surface.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you were just hovering above Venus with your eyeballs, you would only see the cloud tops.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to use radar from orbit to see the surface.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to live down there.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: The pressure is about a hundred times what you're feeling now.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like being underwater, uh under a kilometer of water.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we can't yet rove on Venus like we can on Mars.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it's challenging that way.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's super interesting.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Marty, your last statement leads me to the next question then.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: NASA has recently selected you for two Venus missions that you helped develop.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, can you describe these a little bit?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'd be happy to.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You knew this question was coming.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the Venus community, which is a relatively small community, has been Can you put a rough number on the Venus community?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are we talking about?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe between 100 people, maybe 150.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: But compared to Mars and the other, it's it's very tiny.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So really we we're the ones who have been hanging on since the last US mission to Venus, which was in 1992, the Magellan mission.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been proposing as a community many missions, lander type missions, balloony type missions, orbiters, and um not succeeding until now, when in the this selection, NASA selected both of the Venus missions in competition.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them is an orbiter.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Veritas.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the PI is Sue Shmakar at Jet Propulsion Lab.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: She's a geophysicist.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you can imagine it like we have a global map of Venus, but this is like the global map you want.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be higher resolution, it's going to give us better topography, which is really critical to understand if there's active activity, um, better gravity.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just it's going to give us the basic data that's going to fill our cups for the next 20 years about how Venus works.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you said it's an orbiter?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's an orbiter.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: How long is the plan to keep it in orbit?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: The nominal mission is three Venus years, I think, um, uh on that timescale.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, which is about a Venus year is is slightly less than an Earth year.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: But as with most NASA missions, if you've done all the work to get a spacecraft to another planet and it's still got fuel and it's still working, NASA generally will hopefully okay extended missions.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so if the orbit is efficient, then Veritas could last a while longer.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's super cool.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And what in the what's the other one?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that's Veritas the Orbiter.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Veritas is the orbiter.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Da Vinci is the probe, and the lead on that is Jim Garvin at NASA Goddard.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's a geologist like me.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So Da Vinci will fly around the planet twice and take some pictures of the clouds, and then it will drop a probe.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this probe is just badass.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: If I can say that on a podcast, you may have to edit that out.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can say whatever you want on our podcast.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, as I said, Venus is really hot, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the fundamental measurements that you want from another planet, what is the atmosphere like?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: What are the isotopes of the atmosphere like?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because that the atmosphere is a fingerprint of the gases that were originally in the planet, the gases that were recycled by volcanism, and the water that's come in throughout.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to measure those isotopes of noble gases, xenon, argon, that whole part of the periodic table that on the on the right, and isotopes of water, for example, that will tell us where Venus came from.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like we still don't know for Earth where Earth's water came from.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe you guys know.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of different theories, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: So do you really think you'll be able to answer that question eventually?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Where the water came from?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that Venus is critical to finding that answer because it is the only planet that has processed water through its system for the same amount of time as the Earth has, the whole four and a half billion years.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'd never thought of that.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, interesting.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because Mars has kind of lost it all, had it, and it sort of lost it, or it's not really superactive surface or interior in the same way that it is on Earth and Venus.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, Marty, if I was listening to this, then I would think my first question would be wait a minute, if you can't answer where Earth's water came from, how in the world do you ever expect to find where Venus's water came from?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's an excellent question.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why planetary geology is so cool.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's so important because this is this here it is, right?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are geologists, I'm a geologist.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: We go out in the field, we study our what's it in the field, you know?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, okay, we know that the Earth works in this way, blah, blah, blah.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then we go look at Mars or Venus and we see the same what's it, the same fault, the same volcano, but oh, it's not quite doing the same thing.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Huh.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are a couple of knobs, environmental variables or something that is different on that planet that is changing the way that geology is expressed.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so to understand our Earth what's it, it really helps to have a second or other sets of experiments that help us see, okay, that's how the what's it behaves, and this is what's important to understand what is uh generating this fault or this volcano or or whatever.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: That makes a lot of sense.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: So are you looking then?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if this is in your realm.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think you're more of a hard rock girl, right?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: But are you looking at carbon dioxide on Venus too and how that happened?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: This kind of runaway greenhouse effect, and and looking at that with Earth too, or is that somebody else's field?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So where do you think the carbon dioxide from the Venus atmosphere came from?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Chris.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, Chris, it was directed at Chris.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: I gotcha, I gotcha, I I gotcha.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they lost their carbon cycle.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was kind of this snowball effect.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: If you lose your ability to cycle carbon, then the carbon that is put into the atmosphere is there to stay.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing is removing it.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, exactly.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And to do that, you need oceans, you need something to dissolve the carbon into and then sequester it in the rocks and carbonates, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if it is the case that all of the planets started out with the same complement of water, okay, which is a reasonable assumption, then Venus was once wet and could have a carbon cycle and it got too hot and off it goes, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: So where I come in is that the most ancient rocks on Venus, the rocks that are most likely to have been formed in an era that may have had water, are the rocks that I specialize in.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're contained in these terrains called tessera.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're very deformed, they don't look like the lava flows of today.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the wonderful things about Veritas is that it has an instrument that has revolutionized the way we think about the mineralogy of planets.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's one little window through the Venus atmosphere where you can get some sort of information about mineralogy, the iron content of the rocks.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so Veritas will, for the first time, produce a global map that relates to iron content.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And all those gorgeous volcanoes we expect are probably basaltic and full of iron.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: These ancient terrains, we don't know what they are.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: They could be granites like the Earth's continents, they could be sedimentary rocks.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if we have the added information, the compositional information from Veritas, we can start to see whether these rocks were formed in an environment that required water.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was going to ask that this is a lot of money going into these missions.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think each of them are like$500 million or something like that.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: In my calibration for science, that's like a huge amount of money.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're getting like$100,000 grants or something.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I was going to ask sort of what's the point of that money, but I think you answered it.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great answer.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: That like this is the other Earth-like thing.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we need n equals two data points to understand our planet and you know what the evolutionary path is.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the exoplanets, the Earth side, the other Earths.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think based on our research, correct us if we're wrong here, but in sort of 2017 time, you kind of had similar proposals.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And like you described, the last like 20 or 30 years, the Venus community has been proposing missions.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, like what's different?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Why now?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And is it related to this sort of phosphine thing?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And can you explain what phosphine's all about, maybe?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm going to make a comment and then answer your question.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think with regards to the money, uh, Jesse, I think we I I like to calibrate not against the tiny little grants that we get, you know, that we fight for from NSF or NASA, but you know, I think I meant how much was the Tap and Z Bridge, you know, that was just they just rebuilt the Tap and Z Bridge.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: What is the Tap and Z Bridge?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure what the bridge that goes across the Hudson, the one that's that's north, the next bridge north uh uh from the George Washington Bridge in New York.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was like on the order of it was three to four hundred million dollars.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just I think we need to think about these missions in terms of infrastructure, right?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think you're right.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great, that's a great analogy.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great analogy.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's a bridge.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah to Venus.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of to Jersey.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good one.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's a bridge to Venus.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, instead of to Jersey.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of New Jersey.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we don't want to we don't want to alienate the New Jersey people here.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm I I agree with you, but uh let's not.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so is there something different about this?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like is Venus more interesting right now than it was the last 20 years or something like that?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: What's yeah, yes, I think that the Venus community has done a really good job talking about why Venus is important.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the missions that we submitted, which had been through this process before of being reviewed and selected into sort of the phase two, we call it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because in 2017, we were there four missions being considered, and the asteroid missions one, but we were we went through a process where we honed the spacecraft and the missions.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so these missions were just tight, you know, they're just oh, just delicious.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to take a bite out of them.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're so good.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that it was the socializing by the Venus community.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the other stories, the exoplanet story, the exoplanet people were independently saying, hey, we need to know about Venus.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't understand what we're seeing because not every Earth-sized body is like Earth, and not every Earth-sized body is like Venus, but we're never going to touch an exoplanet.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're never physically going to go and sample one, but we can go next door to Venus and sample its gas and understand it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: And let me just interject here for so people are on the same page.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Exoplanets, the information we get is mainly only atmospheric information, typically.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some any information we do get from of the surface would be atmospheric composition.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: So understanding the interior planet links to the atmosphere would allow us to understand exoplanets at a different level.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: But so we need that Venus understanding of a very different atmosphere, similar size planet, to make that change.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that right?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: That was so clear, Jesse, right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: There, like clear as mud, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: My gosh.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: That was the most rambling clarification I've ever heard in my life.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, somebody somebody's got to interrupt me.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I if I just somebody's got to cut me off.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: It was beautiful.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to interrupt it.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: But you're you're right, Jesse.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Marty, Marty, if you can take that and spin it into something that's actually true, that'd be great.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think so.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was rough.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, what you're I think what you're trying to express, Jesse, is that um when if you look at the top of the atmosphere of a planet, what you detect, what does that tell you about what the planet is doing?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: There are many ways that you can get to a carbon dioxide-rich atmosphere like Venus, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are many ways that you can get to a nitrogen-rich atmosphere like Earth.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, probably.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why we have to explore.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Both planets are volcanically active.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: So other volcanoes, yes.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Totally different atmospheres, right?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Both planets may have been habitable at one point.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh again, we're looking at these planets as snapshots in time.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: What does a one billion-year-old Venus look like with oceans?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, so these are all the things that we need to interpret from looking at the Venus system.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: It will help us understand what those relationships are.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Chris, uh, we'll have to go back to the transcript, but I think that's what I said pretty much.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, gosh, that is not at all what you said.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's not at all.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: All right, all right, fair enough.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so the phosphine, the phosphine.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is like a big deal, what, like a year and a half ago or two years ago, was it?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Marty, that you don't think that had anything to do with it?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this gained a lot of traction.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you've heard a lot about this.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do think it has something to do with it.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just laugh about it every time because nobody was expecting this, right?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody, I mean, who heard of phosphine?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: No one, right?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: What so can you explain what it is, like the two-sentence summary of like what it was and and why it's important.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So phosphine is pH three, so phosphorus hydrogen.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And why most of us have never heard of it is because it is very reduced.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you have oxygen in your atmosphere, it kills phosphine.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: So on Earth, the way you get it is you have to most often you need to have some nasty muck with some decomposing nasty stuff in it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And those life forms and and they are releasing phosphine in their life cycle.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And there are there's enough muck that the phosphine can survive against the oxygen atmosphere for a little while before it gets destroyed.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So to have phosphine not only is suggesting that there's a link to life, but it's a link to active life because you need it doesn't last forever.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you need something to be constantly, you know, generating it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's it's doubly exciting because it's like, yo, Mars, you may have had life in the past, but Venus's got life now.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Woohoo!
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: So you are just to paint a picture then of the life that is maybe indicative of this phosphine would be life in the atmosphere of Venus, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: No, we're not talking about surficial life.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's too hot for life as we know it at the surface of Venus.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: So this would be cloud life.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are, I've learned since the phosphine um discovery that there are people called aerobiologists who study life in the Earth's clouds and little microbes that hang out there.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing lives there all the time, but there are microbes that hang out there for some part of their cycle, or just they're just like, hey, I'm here.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna do?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So wow, that's amazing.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I never knew that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that crazy?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the Venus clouds, I mean, they have lots of things to eat, you know, the temperature is right from a biologist's point of view.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's the acidity is what is an issue.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it's not sulfuric, right?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's very acidic, sulfuric acid.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it, but there are life forms that live in a similar environment on Earth.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I'll take it.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I don't know if I believe it.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't even know, you know, like for me, I'm just like, give me the rocks, whatever, clouds.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: If I could just blow those clouds away, I'd be I'd be like, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: But but the you know, people respond that NASA's a public institution, and you know, taxpayer dollars, the ultimate decision is up to the associate administrator, and you never know what he was thinking or you know what's going into his decision, but this time he decided on us times two.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's totally cool.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Totally cool.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: That had to be a really good day.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: It was a really good day.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's a really good day.
• 30:38
  unknown: All right.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: We might get back to that later on, but that had to be a really good day.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: All right, Marty, I have a question for you then.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: I've been in the field many times with Jesse.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: We go on rock collecting trips, and oh boy, where's this going?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: He's come on some of the field trips that I teach.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I teach a field course out west for 26 high school seniors each summer, and uh Jesse has a really hard time identifying rocks as it is, you know.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's got them in his hand, he's got his little hand lens and all this.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: He's you know, it's still a difficult task.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um but so how are you able to identify rocks on the surface of a planet that we've never like we're not able to hold these rocks?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: How's that done?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we rely on morphology.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: So a lava flow and a volcano, we can make some inferences that, well, it's gotta be igneous.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I see that flow.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then we try to work out if it looks shield-like or if it has any pyroclastic, any ash deposits.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: We we use all the tools we have to try to do our best interpretation based on morphology, structural geology, and any gravity data that we have available because the gravity data can tell you whether there's there's like an upwelling or it's colder lithosphere.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: But that's also why it's so critically these two missions that are that are coming up, are going to do two new things that we really need.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them, as I mentioned, is that infrared channel that can tell us something about mineralogy, some something about iron content.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: Is that the small window that you referred to earlier?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, through the the Venus atmosphere.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: A specific wavelength of infrared?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: 1.02 microns, yes.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Very specific.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't mean to interrupt, but I was curious about that small window.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: So go ahead.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that is wonderful.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: That now we can actually say something about iron content and add to the morphology.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Can I clarify that?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: So you're saying that that wavelength is not absorbed by the clouds, so it kind of makes it down and will get reflected back up.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Is that kind of that's the window part that you're talking about here?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine if you at one micron, most of what is in that light is from the surface with some atmosphere.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas other wavelengths, you're just seeing different portions of the atmosphere.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: So on your orbiter, you're putting a detector, but it's not like a source.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: You're not like a source of 1.02 micron wavelength.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's just background radiation that you're absorbing that particular wavelength on your orbiter.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's a spectrometer.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, and then the probe is doing something that is also unprecedented and will really help, which is that I mentioned before that you can't see Venus's surface with your eyeballs.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we use radar.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And radar is great.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, radar, you you know, radar doesn't care about clouds, it doesn't care about night.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like I'm just measuring, but it's limited, it's centimeter scale wavelength.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the resolution, like the fact that we at Mars, we can see things like tiny, tiny centimeter scale.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, at the rover scale, I mean, we are looking at grains, right?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Ridiculous.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's ridiculous.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: With the radar, we can't, we're still in the meters, tens of meters scale, right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I I want to see Venus with my eyes, you know.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, it's hard.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: So Da Vinci, our our probe, will have cameras, and I'm proud to say that's been my contribution.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I've been helping with these cameras, and I got to help choose where we're gonna look.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so cool.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna go down, down, down through the clouds at wavelengths, are part of the visible, part of the and and so we're gonna see it like with our that's cool.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is totally cool.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, and you got to help choose the locations.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's so that's totally cool.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: These missions are a ways out though, right?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: They're like seven, eight years out, aren't they?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's not really a ways where there's a whole space because there's two spacecraft to be built.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Are you kidding me?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no, I didn't mean that.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't mean that.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: We're I was just saying that like Chris's intention.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: Technology might like help you out too, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're talking seven or eight years worth of advances in uh the camera technology that that you want to put on them, right?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, what do you think they're gonna do for the next seven years?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: They're gonna develop all this stuff.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you think is going on here?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Jeez.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Unbelievable.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, Chris, I'm gonna burst your bubble.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: It it doesn't quite work like that because Okay, that's what I want to know.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's this word in NASA that's very important, which is heritage, right?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So when you fly an instrument on a spacecraft, you have to demonstrate that not only does it work, but it works in the environment in which you're going.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it takes a long time to get an instrument.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just can't go and say, yo, this new iPhone came out and we're just gonna slap it on there.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Can't do that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: So it's that's not really what I thought, Jesse, but you know, I don't believe you, but okay.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay but we but we can move on.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: We can move on.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: Marty, though, is there like what is are you able to look at the chemistry of the rocks at all?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: And to what extent?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not from orbit.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, to do chemistry, you have to do like to really know, you have to measure the rocks.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we can infer chemistry from mineralogy.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So look, the first time we ever landed, we humans ever landed on the surface of another planet was on Venus in the 70s, the early 70s.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: The Soviets were like, we don't know what's down there.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna make this vessel that could just land anywhere and just keep shooting it until it works.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they did.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so they took pictures of the surface of Venus, they took elemental major elements and uranium, potassium, thorium data.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they ingested a sample and did those measurements.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have major element data for three rocks on Venus.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, imagine trying to infer the geology of Earth where you had element data for three random places on Earth.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Three rocks, amazing.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Three rocks.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Marty.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you recently won the Brommery Award from the Geological Society of America.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna say a quote here from your nomination letter, which is extremely impressive.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: The quote is from Jim Head.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it says, few individuals have done more for expanding diversity in the geosciences than Dr.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Gilmore.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's just the lead-in to many, many, many nice things uh later on.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: But can you kind of frame this for us?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Can you describe your personal experiences being a black woman in the geosciences, uh, your past history, what you consider some successes that you've had, maybe or accomplishments, and and sort of where you see the future uh going and sort of goals you have?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: Can you I know it's kind of a convoluted question, it take it whichever way you want, but we're kind of just interested in your perspective here, given this uh very nice award.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll try my best.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um because this is this is I mean, it is personal, right?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's emotional.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I what I I got my when did I graduate college, Franklin Marshall College, Lancaster, Pennsylvania?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: I graduated in 1991.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And Yep, I can confirm from the CV.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, there you go.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, which is stunningly a while ago now, right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been, I was certainly the only black person in my field for ever.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I the conference we all go to in Houston every year was just me.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, and that's gotten better.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: But also the number of women in the field and the number of women in positions of power, more importantly, has improved drastically.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, the principal investigator of the Veritas mission is a woman, and the principal investigator of the Psyche mission is a woman, and the principal investigator of Da Vinci is a guy, but he's really, I mean, he's all right.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, he's got so you know, he's I mean, he's he loves women.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's there is a um where it used to be there were a lot of female grad students and not a lot of female professors.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're getting better.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, like I work with lots of women.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can just write, I can just work with all women if I wanted to, basically.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: I could just like not work with guys if I wanted to.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love guys, but I'm just saying there's there's enough women in the field that I'm able my students.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can give examples in my class of planetary science done by women.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's easy now.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so that makes the culture better.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And as far as people of color, I mean, all the sciences are really far behind.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just, but I think that we have more opportunities to talk to each other and find each other and say, hey, you're not alone and hey, look over here.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the numbers are still dismal.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: We there's a better mechanism for supporting each other.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the Brommery Award allowed me to meet a lot of people that I would have never known that they have brown skin like me and they do geology like me.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a it's a wonderful thing to be able to to talk to each other about our experiences and and how we're gonna how to think about the next steps.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to come back to something here, which is near and dear to my heart a little bit, is the the tessera.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: So can you kind of give us a brief summary of what these things are?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're big plateaus, usually.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: So big meaning like a continent-size area that's a couple kilometers above the rest.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they are about eight percent of the surface of the planet.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: They are mountainous in that they have folds and faults.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Morphologically and topographically, they look kind of like continental crust.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: They stand high and they kind of have a plateau shape most of the time.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: But again, what's most interesting about them is that even the deformation of their surface, it records a time that's different than present-day Venus.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it records a time when Venus had higher strain rates, where things were like smooshing together and deforming.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: And what that's not happening today in the same way.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: I know you have ideas about this, but are these continents, I mean, are are these decent analogs for continents on Earth?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are they thick like continents?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, continents on Earth today are the lithosphere is 150 to 250 kilometers thick and the crust is 40 to 70.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: But like, are they similar to that?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: Can I interject just for a second here?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: I have to apologize to all the listeners right now because I have two continental nerds that are talking right now.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, like I don't even I feel like if you guys can't can I go to the bathroom a second and just step out?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um yeah, you your excuse.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: You're excuse, Chris, from the podcast.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm totally left out.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: Marty, I I I I don't even know what to say.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: So um I mean, come on, Chris.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're not interested in if there's continents on Venus.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, come on.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what are we doing here?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: You both are your body language when you're talking about the Tesserae, it's it's hilarious.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: I wish everybody could see it.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: So okay, back to it, back to it, back to it.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Jesse, we don't we don't know.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so they're thick in crust, but they whatever's going on with them, it happened before.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why we're so interested in them.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: What's the relief difference between the top of the tessera and the top of the other, the the sort of other parts of the crust?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: It can be similar to oh, uh it's usually like is it similar to continents and ocean basins on Earth?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know what it is on Earth.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's like between one and four kilometers on Venus.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: So Okay, so about the same.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's about the same.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, even though it's topographically similar, it doesn't necessarily mean it's compositionally similar.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we're really trying to figure this out.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, we had a Venus meeting this week.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a a meeting of Venus people, and the Venus people were all talking.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's the only cool meeting I think I'd ever like to go to, actually.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds awesome.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's got a name, it's the Venus meeting.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're writing a book about Venus.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, like what do we, where are we?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: What do we know?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: What are we gonna know?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we're so it's an international effort.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm writing the Tessera chapter and the mineralogy chapter, and we were discussing the Tessera chapter, and it is amazing how emotional people get about Tessera.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, like if you just said what you what you just said to me, if you had said that at you know, at this conference, people would have just been like all over you, like, oh, it's not gonna how do you know?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: And blah, blah, blah, and I think and the pill bar and the pot and the blah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, people go crazy about this stuff.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just great.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love scientists.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: I love scientists, it's so fun.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: We had just have to keep it.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: They are hilarious people.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Try to be even keel about it and objective.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I think you know, you and I agree that that's sort of we've talked about this before that the early Earth and maybe present-day Venus or maybe early Venus.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: Did Earth and Venus as children were they twins and then they've kind of you know evolved separately?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or is one ahead of the other a little bit in time?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you can you do you have a sense for that?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a hunch?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: I guess what I'm asking for is do you have a hunch?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: I love for something a proposal that you'd like to test, a hypothesis you'd like to test about that or something?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: I love I love that analogy about the children being twins, and then one of them went away from the other.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm getting sad about it, but I'm just twins separated at birth and all this stuff.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: One went wrong.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I I have my hunch.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: It feels good to me as a geologist to think about the earth when plate tectonics was starting and it was hotter, and we kind of had some like, you know, just the beginnings of continental cross-generation and you know, the TTG suite.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just like, you know, you know, and like the green stuff.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like that that that kind of squishy tectonics that where things are kind of assembling, but plate tectonics hadn't started in earnest, you know, like the efficient plate tectonics we have now.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: It just feels good to me that Venus experienced that as well.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was at the beginning or if it was consistent, you know, maybe it ran in a different way.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my hunch.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also think that I just, you know, actually this conference, you know that we were hit by a huge, you know, body to make the moon, right?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: We were like the earth was hit, right?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, totally.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: There are consequences of that.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: That was going to be another question.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Was is the implication, does the moon have any influence or does the lack of a moon on Venus have any sort of influence here?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: If it wasn't hit by a moon forming event, then there are consequences for the core.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we're nerding out now, but you know, Earth differentiated before the moon formed.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so many.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: We have this idea that Venus, if you just drew a picture of it, it looked like an onion, like just the Earth and you know, this and that, but it doesn't have a magnetic field and it's hot.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: It should have a magnetic field.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, right?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: It should have volcanism.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: We think it does.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: We don't even know what the core size is.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just feel like it's gonna be so much fun when we get these data back and we're like, oh wow, we were so wrong.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, you're getting me, you're getting me so excited.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: I this is so fun.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: What what a fun conversation.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: You think they're gonna rewrite the books in 10, 12 years, huh?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: On Venus.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's awesome.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think this is gonna take you all the way to the end of your career?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what am I?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, maybe.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's 20 years.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good 20 years of work.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: That is very cool.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: Marty, I want to circle back a little bit to, you know, we were talking about the composition of Venus and and, you know, the carbon cycle and all this kind of stuff.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you went into geology, then you kind of found planetary geology.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: When did you like realize your importance?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense, what I'm asking?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: You're trying to solve questions about Earth by looking at other planets, and that is so important.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: I uh have so much admiration for what you do and the importance of what you do.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: When did you realize this?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy that to hear you say that, Chris.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think everybody thinks that about planetary scientists.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, that I mean, there's always that perennial, like, why are you studying Venus?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who cares?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it has nothing to do with people.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And but it does.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it does.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um, you think it does.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I'm just lucky to be able to do what I love to do and get paid for it.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I just can't get over these planets.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just am so happy to look at them as my job and think about them.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's really as simple as that.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a selfish endeavor.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I don't feel like I'm doing this for humanity.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like I love rocks.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, this is I teach an astronomy class, I teach geology to high school seniors, and I have a lot of students and a lot of a lot of female students too that are interested in going into planetary geology.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have any words of advice or wisdom for them?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do it.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the field I they can get a job.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yes.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: It the easiest way to get a job in planetary geology is to get a PhD.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so, or that's I shouldn't say the easiest that's the most straightforward way, which is the way that I've done it.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that space and and our workings in space are have been expanding.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there we're doing so much out there.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing, you know, the Europa and we're going to Titan for Pete's sake with a helicopter.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just the moon.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, so I feel like there's a lot of energy and a lot of work to be done for people who want to think about these problems as a scientist.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also like the aeronautics and the engineering parts too, which are incredibly exciting.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Marty.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: We always end with this question.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's always interesting what answers we get with this one, but what has been your best day as a geoscientist?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my best day as a planetary geoscientist was the day that we learned about that the missions were selected.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, certainly as a planetary geoscientist, right?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just yeah.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like it's like the Oscars or the Emmys or what I imagine them to be like.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's how it felt.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh my it, you know.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: So how did you celebrate?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: If if you if you if you're if you're willing to share.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I knew before it was announced that both were selected.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I called, I called some people that were also I I called some people and I said, this is happening, but don't tell anybody.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like, What?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, they're like, what?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're jumping up and down and we're like, oh my god, oh my god.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that happened for a while.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: We were all in complete disbelief.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: The Venus community has been fighting so hard, and we all know each other.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're all like, you know, we're I mean, we've been in it together.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and so to have this happen, we didn't even know what to do with ourselves.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're still pivoting to this idea, like, okay, now we're gonna, we're gonna go.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna go and we're gonna do some, we're gonna science it up, man.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: We are gonna find answers and we're gonna we're going to Venus.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Venus is out in the sky right now.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Look, look at near the moon.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and when I see her in the sky, I'm like, hey, I'm coming.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's gotta be so neat for you to look up and see Venus.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: And ah, that's awesome.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: That is great.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: That is great.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Marty, uh for me personally, your enthusiasm is infectious.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's been such a pleasure.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, this is so fun.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for for joining us here on Planet Geo.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: I've really enjoyed this.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: And from my perspective, I don't know if Chris approves of this, but you have a standing invitation to come back whenever you want to talk about anything you want to talk about.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Always welcome.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: That would be great.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Jesse.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Marty, this has truly been the highlight of my day.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: I always have good days.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: I love my job, but Jesse and I spoke this morning about eight o'clock this morning, and I'm like, I can't wait for tonight.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been really an honor to get to talk to you, get to meet you.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: You're an inspiration.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for joining us.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Chris.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: This was so much fun, and it's just so nice to hang out with people who love rocks.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: It truly is.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have to do it in three dimensions sometime together, like over a beer in three dimensions and talk about rocks.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: We can all explain the rocks that we're looking at to Jesse.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: There we go.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: That'll that'll be great.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: That'll be great.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a wrap on the episode.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you could do us a favor, we would really appreciate it if you just hit that subscribe button, maybe leave us a review if you like what you're listening to, and please just share Planet Geo with somebody that you know.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: You can always reach out to us with questions.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: Our social media accounts, we are at Planet Geocast, and our email is planetgeocast at gmail.com.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: Hit us up.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: We love that stuff.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.