Latest / The Curve / Author of Sex and The City; Candace Bushnell on Choosing Money Over Mr Big.

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Author of Sex and The City; Candace Bushnell on Choosing Money Over Mr Big. · The Curve

0:00
The older you get, the more important money is.
0:04
There's definitely a certain level of money that brings happiness.
0:07
Believe me, a million dollar contract will solve a lot of your psychological problems.
0:12
I heard you say in an interview once that you didn't marry Mr. Bigg, you wanted to be Mr. Bigg.
0:17
Do you relate mostly to being Samantha?
0:19
We only tell women you're going to be fulfilled by being married and having a child.
0:25
If that were true, men would not be out there making money.
0:28
That's why I'm like, women, get the money.
0:31
Don't marry a rich man.
0:32
Forget about Mr. Bigg.
0:34
Get the money.
0:36
So that's what sex in this city is really about.
0:40
It's not about Harry and Mr. Bigg.
0:42
It's really about the harsh realities of dating and mating rituals which are still true today
0:49
and are probably even worse with dating apps.
0:51
I mean, look at everybody on social media.
0:53
Okay, I'm not sure how this is going to come across Candice.
0:56
So can you just bear with me in case I put my foot in my mouth?
1:03
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2:22
Honestly, it's not often that we get an absolute icon on.
2:26
We get incredible people on this podcast, but like kind of feel a bit not starstruck.
2:31
I know that's embarrassing, but honestly, Candace, firstly, welcome to the show.
2:36
Thank you so much for being here.
2:38
I'm thrilled to be here.
2:39
I've been excited about this for a while.
2:41
I used to work in media, you know, like whether it's TV or radio.
2:45
And some of the people I met most people, like whether it's Katy Perry or Justin Bieber,
2:50
those sorts of people you would think I would be excited about.
2:53
I'm much more excited about talking to you.
2:56
We mentioned to everyone else in the office that we were interviewing you in the podcast.
3:00
And you should have seen the reaction.
3:02
Like, I'm surprised they're not all sitting here in the studio, to be honest.
3:06
We actually said they were a welcome to, but they were too embarrassed to thank you.
3:09
But anyone who doesn't know, so Candace is the original writer,
3:13
the original Carrie Bradshaw from Sex and the City.
3:16
And you've written, you know, so many other incredible books and just been a real pioneer
3:22
in terms of like rewriting what it means to be a woman and have a career and love and lose
3:28
and just like reinvent yourself and probably the most well-known series
3:33
that you wrote the original for with Sex and the City.
3:37
But I'd love to hear a bit more of a background.
3:39
It's like your story and what actually inspired from your story
3:43
and kind of like made its way into all of your incredible works.
3:46
Well, first of all, I knew that I wanted to be a writer when I was eight.
3:51
I grew up in the 60s, which was, it was really, really sexist.
3:56
It was really, you know, specifically about what women could and couldn't do
4:02
and very specific about how women were supposed to feel and how women were supposed to think.
4:08
And I realized pretty early on as a kid that, you know, all of that was wrong.
4:15
You could earn money, but you couldn't have your own bank account
4:18
and you couldn't have your own credit card.
4:20
That didn't happen until 1974.
4:24
Women were really second-class citizens.
4:27
You know, as a woman, your only access to the income stream was through a man.
4:33
So obviously, you know, there were so many rules about men and women and dating
4:41
and how women were supposed to behave and you shouldn't have sex before marriage
4:46
because that would soil you.
4:48
And of course, as a little girl, I didn't feel any of the things that girls supposedly felt.
4:56
I didn't feel like my little girlfriends did either.
5:00
So that always made me feel like I just want to give women a different way to think about themselves and their lives.
5:11
So that's always been really important to me.
5:15
And I was determined to try to make a difference in the world.
5:21
And I was very determined to be a writer and I came to New York City.
5:26
I thought I would just write novels, thought I would just write fiction.
5:30
I had no idea how to be a professional.
5:33
And then I had to make money.
5:35
So I started writing for magazines and pretty much writing anything that I could get paid for.
5:41
As a woman who didn't go to an Ivy League school,
5:45
the only jobs that you could get as a writer were writing for women's magazines.
5:50
There was no New York Times.
5:53
Those publications were for men.
5:56
I wrote about microwaves, stuff, decorations, pretty much anything that I could get paid for.
6:04
And I started writing stories that were precursors to sex in the city.
6:09
So sex in the city is not something that I came up with.
6:13
It's a continuum of all of the work that I've been doing since the early 80s.
6:18
Many people probably don't know that the sex and city phenomenon started from your article in the New York Observer.
6:25
Can you just talk through how you transitioned from being a writer for that publication
6:31
and writing on dating to being one of the most influential voices now in dating and independence?
6:38
I got the sex in the city column.
6:40
The editors had no idea what it should be.
6:43
But I knew exactly what it should be because I had already been doing it for the last 15 years.
6:49
So I'd already been writing those stories about dating.
6:54
It's really about money, power,
6:58
status, and how all of that affects who we choose as partners.
7:05
So that's what sex in the city is really about.
7:08
It's not about Harry and Mr. Big.
7:11
It's really about the harsh realities of dating and mating rituals,
7:16
which we still true today and are probably even worse with dating apps or magnified with dating apps.
7:24
The difference is that it was in a publication that had 60 to 70% male readers
7:34
and things that are in publications that men read are considered more valuable.
7:39
So once I started writing for a publication that men read, all of a sudden it's much more important.
7:46
People started taxing the column to their friends in LA.
7:52
That's when people really started paying attention.
7:55
Even that alone that means publications are worth more than women's.
7:59
Even that.
8:00
Well, I think I think fascinating what you've done is the idea that you took
8:05
something that you knew that was golden or literally on money
8:09
because the fact that you had 60% male readership is wild
8:12
when you're talking about your dating life, by the way.
8:14
Even that in itself is quite fascinating because I would have assumed it would be mostly female readers.
8:19
No, it was men.
8:20
Why do you think that is?
8:22
First of all, I interviewed a lot of men.
8:24
A lot of the stories and sex in the city are like one of the stories is the modelizers.
8:30
All these men who date models.
8:33
Can I just say that annoys me so much.
8:36
Just the idea that men date what woman if they have money.
8:40
I sit everywhere all through soho house, all through London everywhere.
8:43
There's all these like kind of strange looking guys with actual supermodels.
8:48
The reality of women having their own money is true to a certain extent.
8:56
But they are not anywhere near close to men who have money.
9:02
So men still make all the rules about money.
9:07
Now there's crypto, which of course is a male thing.
9:11
You know, they keep changing the rules about money.
9:14
So it's almost in a way impossible for women to keep up.
9:19
So the tragic reality is that if you're a woman,
9:24
the best way to be in the 1% is to marry a rich man, not to make your own money.
9:29
Sometimes I feel really proud, like we've taken millions of steps forward.
9:33
Sometimes I feel exhausted, like I'm just so over it.
9:37
Like why are we still having the same conversation?
9:40
Then I have to remind myself how far with common and shows like sex in the city
9:45
and what you have continued to write throughout your entire career
9:48
have really reshaped the way that woman think about themselves
9:52
and think about the way that they can date and make money and show up in the world.
9:56
And I just want to say thank you for that because I think there's a huge amount of women
10:01
that watch that and still watch that and go back time and time again on streaming platforms
10:05
and the way that you depict all of the different relationships there.
10:10
It's not just what Carrie and Big represent.
10:11
It's the idea that female friendship is so, so important.
10:15
And for some reason, so many media outlets and stories forget about that.
10:19
There's so much at play when it comes to the money dynamic
10:22
and particularly with Big and Carrie.
10:24
I know you've spoken out before about how it's kind of almost a little bit disappointing
10:28
that she ends up with Big.
10:29
There are a couple of things there.
10:31
Number one, sex in the city, my book ended up being a TV series that went on.
10:38
You know, TV series is very, very different from a book and a TV series
10:42
you want it to go on and on and on.
10:44
So you have stories that suit the narrative and suit the medium.
10:51
You know, the Carrie and Mr. Big story is a story that suited a TV series
10:58
because we're invested in those characters.
11:00
We want to see what's going to happen.
11:03
I think what's perpetuating the same narrative around women needing to marry wealthy men
11:09
comes from there being a lack of representation of different types of relationships.
11:14
And I just think it's really interesting that like when the purpose of
11:18
and what you represent as a person is like the idea of independence
11:21
and they warped that character a little bit as time went on to be quite,
11:26
you know, to not be that.
11:28
When we watch those series and there is that undertone of that dynamic constantly
11:33
and everything we want, then we start to fall into that behavior
11:39
or that trap of, okay, well, we want to be like that.
11:44
Rather than if you constantly saw a different power dynamic or a different relationship.
11:49
Okay, well, here's the problem for the dynamic you're talking about.
11:52
All right, lipstick jungle was that TV show about independent women
11:59
in different kinds of marriages.
12:01
Did it not go well?
12:02
It lasted for two seasons.
12:04
Damn.
12:05
That was a great TV show.
12:08
But, you know, the reality is that the audience wants these fantasies.
12:13
If you write books, the note that you get from the editors who are women
12:19
is that there has to be some kind of romantic interest
12:25
and the woman has to end up with the right guy at the end.
12:30
You cannot write a book about a woman where she ends up alone.
12:36
It doesn't sound.
12:37
It's very, very difficult to do these other kinds of stories.
12:42
I heard you say in an interview once that the idea is that you didn't marry Mr.
12:48
Bigg, you wanted to be Mr. Bigg.
12:50
Yeah.
12:51
Why are we not seeing stories like that depicted?
12:54
And I guess we've kind of come to the conclusion that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy
12:59
and that we just like those heteronormative, classic stories that are told again and again.
13:05
But I don't know, I think there's a long way to go in the media space
13:08
and I think that there needs to be more female writers and more,
13:12
I don't know, just more diversity in the way that we storytell
13:15
because even I'm noticing now, just small things,
13:19
really hot, same-sex couple dynamics play out and small roles on television or in books.
13:25
And you're like, yes, that's so good because finally,
13:29
they're being shown in a way that's actually desirable and beautiful
13:33
and not just this random side story that is sort of like not ever the main character.
13:39
I think we're definitely taking steps in the right direction,
13:41
but it just sometimes is really frustrating.
13:43
I find my own internal dialogue is exactly what you're saying.
13:47
I find myself as much as I want to step into my like, yes, I'm an independent woman
13:52
and I can be happy on my own and I don't need a man and blah, blah, blah.
13:56
I do find myself spiraling back to what I've been told in all the different stories I see everywhere.
14:02
And it's just sometimes a bit frustrating, you know, you feel really empowered
14:05
and then you find yourself feeling kind of like a little girl again,
14:08
being moulded by the stories we see everywhere.
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It's like I want to be a strong independent woman,
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but I want the door held open for me.
14:15
You want these things, but then you also want to lean into the feminine side of things.
14:20
But it's interesting because I remember hearing 50 shades of grey,
14:24
another massive phenomenon.
14:26
And I remember someone saying to me when that was like popping off,
14:30
they were like, if that was, so Christian Grey obviously,
14:35
powerful, good looking rich man, they're like, if that was an ugly poor man
14:40
going after this woman and stalking her, she'd be classified as a stalker.
14:44
And here we are romanticizing it.
14:46
Here we are romanticizing it being like, oh my gosh,
14:48
and he's got a private jet and he's in this ivory tower.
14:50
And yet if it was flipped financially and looks wise,
14:55
he's going to be like, oh my god, absolute creep.
14:58
It's so interesting that I was sitting here because I have to admit,
15:01
when I watched Sex in the City,
15:03
I did not think about any of this dynamic playing out at all.
15:06
Really?
15:07
It wasn't until we were researching this interview
15:09
that I'm sitting there going, oh my goodness.
15:12
I didn't even think about all the undertones and all the teachings and learnings
15:16
and what it was saying to me as a woman.
15:19
And I kind of feel like that I've been juped in terms of,
15:24
you know, like the propaganda that I must have been fed over the years,
15:27
not saying this is propaganda, but in terms of,
15:30
I don't see what I don't see.
15:32
The big and carried dynamic, I didn't even think,
15:35
but subconsciously, it would have played on me in terms of,
15:38
I want to be like Mary Richman.
15:40
Yeah, but I didn't think about it like that
15:42
because I've probably been being showed that dynamics
15:45
so many times throughout my life.
15:47
And each time I see that, it chips away a little bit,
15:50
a little bit, a little bit, a little bit,
15:51
without me even realizing.
15:52
I think with sex in the city, it's the female friendship,
15:57
which is a real reflection of real life in New York City.
16:04
And in particular, my own life,
16:07
maybe because I have two younger sisters
16:09
and didn't have any brothers,
16:11
but I always had lots and lots of girlfriends.
16:15
And New York City, it's one of the few places
16:20
where women can actually come and be powerful.
16:25
We do have powerful women here.
16:27
Like, you know, Anna went to our Tina Brown.
16:31
They've been women in fashion, historically, beauty.
16:35
You know, even in finance.
16:38
It's a little bit of a woman's city
16:42
because it's one of the few places where women can make it.
16:48
And there are also more women here than men.
16:52
So if you're a woman here and you don't have female friends,
16:57
it's very difficult.
16:58
It's a place where women actually need each other
17:02
in a lot of ways to survive.
17:05
And those are realities of big city life.
17:10
And that was one of the things that I wrote about in sex in the city.
17:15
There's also quite a difference between the characters
17:20
say Charlotte is very much about financial security,
17:25
whereas Samantha is very much about self-made success
17:28
when it comes to money.
17:30
What was your thought process behind that
17:32
in representing, you know, both sides?
17:35
The reality is that I had lots and lots of girlfriends,
17:38
but most of them were like Samantha.
17:40
That's the reality.
17:43
Is that women were pretty re-wheeling.
17:47
There was a lot of dating.
17:49
In terms of the TV show, you know,
17:52
it's a pretty standard template of a TV show, sex in the city.
17:56
So I had lots and lots of girlfriends,
17:58
but you know on TV you can't have lots and lots of girlfriends.
18:01
It gets whittled down to four characters
18:04
and then they make distinctions between those four characters.
18:08
Part of it is also the actresses
18:12
as they learn the characters,
18:14
as the seasons go on,
18:16
they bring more to the characters.
18:19
So it's really it's kind of organic,
18:22
re-flowing situation.
18:24
And that's ideally what one wants with a TV series.
18:28
Do you relate mostly to being Samantha?
18:30
Well, you know, Carrie's my alter ego.
18:33
It's just quite interesting because I know it's your alter ego,
18:36
but I mean, I guess it's probably comes down to the fact
18:39
that Carrie marries big.
18:40
Look, I kind of imagine you were a Samantha
18:42
because she's so independent and she's like,
18:45
I don't need to be in a relationship.
18:47
And if I do, maybe I'll date someone that's 21.
18:49
You know, like, she's such a...
18:51
And I'll either have a sushi on my stomach.
18:54
I had a couple of friends who were like Samantha.
18:57
I want to be saying that most of my friends were like Samantha.
19:00
I mean that in terms of, you know,
19:03
people were pretty open to sexual experiences.
19:05
The character of Charlotte was really a character
19:08
that Darren Star came up with as a counterpoint
19:12
to the other three characters.
19:14
He's the producer for anyone that doesn't know.
19:16
I've found that out when...
19:17
Yep.
19:18
I must say.
19:20
Okay.
19:21
I'm not sure how this is going to come across Candace.
19:23
So can you just bear with me in case I put my foot in my mouth?
19:25
But, you know, am I right in thinking
19:27
you chose not to have children?
19:29
That's true.
19:30
I never wanted kids.
19:32
Was that a bit of a, like, eff you to the patriarchy?
19:35
Was that a...
19:36
I want to be able to focus on my career
19:38
because, as you say, 60, 70s, 80s,
19:41
not particularly progressive, very traditional.
19:44
So it's like, even...
19:46
I mean, I still am really grappling with, like,
19:48
do I want to be a mum?
19:50
Well, do I want to be a mum?
19:51
Because societies told me that that's what security...
19:54
Well, we'll cover you.
19:56
Exactly.
19:57
The reality is that 86% of women are mothers.
20:01
Whereas 61, 62% of men are fathers.
20:06
So there's a big gap there, number one.
20:10
I think that, you know, there's probably
20:13
10 or 11% out of that 86% of women who are mothers
20:20
because it's what you're supposed to do as a woman.
20:24
And being a mother makes you safe in the eyes of society.
20:30
We always say, oh, he's a mother.
20:33
You know, if you're a mother,
20:36
you can do anything for your kids.
20:38
You can't do anything for yourself or your career.
20:42
That's considered selfish.
20:44
But you can do anything for your kids.
20:47
Everybody understands that.
20:49
So being a mother is the one kind of universal female experience.
20:59
Right?
21:00
Since 86% of women are mothers.
21:03
The gap is that.
21:04
So high.
21:05
7% are not mothers because they couldn't have kids.
21:10
So that kind of leaves.
21:12
Oh my gosh.
21:13
7% of women who are saying, you know what?
21:16
I don't want to have kids.
21:18
I don't feel like I need to have kids.
21:20
I mean, for me, you know, it's pretty.
21:24
Definitely being an outlier.
21:27
Not having kids in a place like New York City.
21:30
I know a lot of women who are not.
21:33
Don't have kids.
21:34
You know, if I lived in the suburbs,
21:36
if I had a different life,
21:38
I imagine I probably would have had kids
21:40
because that's what you do once you're in that pattern.
21:43
It's interesting.
21:44
So if that you wanted you don't want to have children as.
21:47
You know, and if you to the patriarchy.
21:49
Whereas I'm like.
21:52
I want to have children and a career as an effuute to the patriarchy.
21:56
But that's just doing two full-time jobs.
21:59
No, but I want to show that it's that it's possible.
22:02
And I want to change the narrative for the generations after me.
22:07
Do you have any thoughts on this whole situation?
22:10
Having kids is a lot of cast.
22:13
You've got to take the kids to the doctors.
22:15
You have to do all the school stuff.
22:19
Most of the cooking.
22:20
I don't know.
22:21
I mean, maybe I would have had kids if I was super, super, super rich.
22:24
And I could have had help.
22:26
Who knows?
22:27
But you know, that wasn't going to happen.
22:29
You know, it's very hard to have kids and have a big career.
22:35
I mean, you can certainly have kids and have a job.
22:39
And most people need to do both.
22:43
I think it's about choosing the right partner.
22:45
Honestly, thank you.
22:46
Really?
22:47
I think my children, and if I have sons, and they see their father being involved in the child care and around the house,
22:56
that's going to instill a different view for them for when they get married and have children,
23:02
or if they choose to marry and have children.
23:04
So I just feel like it's the more that we don't play an active part in changing that narrative,
23:13
the longer it's going to take that generational change.
23:15
But I also think there's a lot of, like, there's a huge wave of women starting to talk out openly about how, like, they regret being months.
23:23
It's quite fascinating.
23:24
And there's a reason no one's ever said that before, because men need us to have kids.
23:31
It's like, it's so interesting, because it's like, on one side, I fully understand your argument.
23:36
But on the other side, when you hear these, well, all these like a celibate, there's a whole celibate revolution happening after what's happened with Trump.
23:43
There's all these wrong things.
23:45
I actually fuck men in general.
23:46
I'm not going to have sex.
23:47
I'm not going to have kids.
23:48
You think you can do it better, cool, do it without us.
23:50
And it's really interesting to see.
23:54
I don't know where I sit with it.
23:56
And I still think that I would like to be a mum, and that it's not all in grain societal stuff.
24:02
But I, yeah, I think that it's incredibly hard to change the system.
24:08
And unfortunately, right now, we're still very much in a system.
24:11
We are changing the system, though.
24:13
That's what our whole business is on.
24:15
I know that our mission is to try and create more equality through the financial empowerment side of things.
24:23
Yes.
24:24
That's the most important aspect, I think.
24:29
You know, I love you for saying, like, oh, I'm going to find this guy and he's going to stick with me and he's going to take care of the kids and he's going to be an example.
24:41
Well, I got to tell you, your chances of finding that guy are you probably have a better chance of being in the 1% than finding that guy.
24:53
That's the part that you really can't control.
24:56
You can't control another person.
24:58
That's the issue.
24:59
And, you know, there are millions and millions of women out there who got married to a man who they thought was going to be there and do all of those things.
25:09
And the guy doesn't, you know, and I see there are a lot of women out there who say, don't get married and have kids unless you feel like you can take care of those kids on your own.
25:22
Because, you know, there's a good chance that guy's going to leave the guy could lose his job.
25:28
I've seen that happen a lot in a for men out there making money and being the provider or, you know, that's also a cutthroat world that they're in as well.
25:39
Not all these guys are that ambitious, etc.
25:42
This issue is like you have to, you're relying on somebody else to do all kinds of things in tasks, etc.
25:49
That you can't really control them.
25:53
I think for me, it's like you are both contributing to this child biologically in a heterosexual relationship.
26:00
You should both be providing financially.
26:03
You should both be providing on the daily tasks.
26:07
You're a team. It's a household. I think it's like it's as simple as that for me.
26:13
And I want a partner that is willing to contribute as much as I'm contributing on all those levels.
26:20
And how is that going?
26:24
Are you finding that guy?
26:28
How old are you?
26:30
36.
26:31
No, I do have a partner that is very in that camp.
26:34
And he's probably going to listen to this podcast and go, oh, geez.
26:37
Oh, the last five.
26:39
I changed my mind.
26:41
But no, yeah, it's taken me a while to find that person.
26:45
I mean, I'm well, okay.
26:46
Now I'm just saying that I'm going to be in my life with this person and have kids with them.
26:50
But it's more. It's just like, I think that's why it took me so long.
26:54
It can work. It can work.
26:55
I think it's because honestly, I think that's why it took me so long.
26:58
It's because it's like, I do want that.
27:00
And I'm not going to settle for anything less because my financial independence is important to me.
27:05
But so is having children.
27:06
Look, there are people who they really want to have children.
27:09
I feel like if you really want to have children, you know you want to have children.
27:13
And you have them.
27:14
I don't know. I think for me, I would be in the same campus what you said.
27:17
I think if I had earned enough to be able to get help so that I can not compromise my career.
27:24
And obviously there'll be a part compromise that always would be.
27:27
And there should be probably for both sides, but not just for me.
27:30
Then I would love to be a mother.
27:32
But I can't, I know I couldn't handle financially the tasks emotionally, etc. by myself.
27:40
So unless I was in a situation where I felt like it was super, super equal as you say in all those ways.
27:45
And I kind of love this new wave of like, you don't have to because the biological clock's shit house.
27:52
And by the time you start earning good money is when your biological clock is like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
27:58
So it's like it's just so shit because you finally set it up.
28:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:03
You better push her out of bed.
28:04
I mean, you know, it takes forever to get your financial situation back.
28:08
And I just think the idea of having to rely on someone to pay for your life and your kids' life is so scary.
28:15
Yes, I think it's scary and it's also very uncertain too.
28:21
I mean, the positive thing here is that Victoria has invested her money for a very, very, very, very long time.
28:27
So the reality is she could look after herself if she had kids and then they left.
28:31
And I think that if we were all in that situation, we would all have the power to leave an unhealthy dynamic
28:36
where someone isn't pulling their weight.
28:39
But the unfortunate truth is is that a lot of us didn't get financial education in time to be in a position by now
28:46
where we could have our own back and our children's back should our partner not be able to provide or leave for whatever reason.
28:54
And I think as we move forward with the curve and just like the general narrative around feminism
28:59
and what it looks like to carve your own path whether that's kids or no kids is having the freedom of choice
29:05
and the only way that you have that is by having your own money.
29:08
Yes.
29:09
Well, thank you.
29:10
Thank you.
29:11
That was, yeah.
29:12
I am 100% for women making their own money, having their own money.
29:19
And you know, it's not just about having the freedom to leave.
29:24
It's really about self-esteem and self-actualization, you know, as a person.
29:32
And this is something that we don't tell women.
29:36
We only tell women you're going to be fulfilled by being married and having a child.
29:43
Well, if that were true, then believe me, men would not be out there making money.
29:50
The reality is that making money and achieving is fulfilling in a way that can only be accomplished by doing those things, making money.
30:05
I mean, a lot of, I don't know.
30:08
I mean, I felt like a lot of my problems were solved when I started writing best sellers and got million-dollar contracts.
30:19
Believe me, a million-dollar contract will solve a lot of your psychological problems.
30:25
I promise you.
30:27
I love that.
30:28
I love that.
30:29
People say money doesn't bring you happiness.
30:32
There's definitely a certain level of money that brings happiness.
30:35
It's not you don't need to be the filthiest, richest person in the whole world.
30:38
But to be able to afford the basics and not have to ever worry about being able to afford something you need or doing things that you want to do,
30:45
there's a certain level of psychological ease and just nervous system relaxing when you have the money to do the things you want.
30:53
It brings you the freedom to spend your time how you want to.
30:56
And if that's on things that bring you more happiness than working, then yeah, it's definitely does bring you an element of happiness.
31:05
Is this the coolest thing I've ever done?
31:07
We have an app.
31:08
Can you believe it?
31:09
I know.
31:10
Quite cool.
31:11
If you told me that, even three months ago, I felt like as if.
31:15
I feel like when you have an app, you're an actual business.
31:18
I know.
31:19
We haven't really talked about this much.
31:21
I don't know why, but the Investing Club, it's an app based at the place.
31:25
You can download it from, whether you're on Google, you can watch all of the investing ideas.
31:30
You can chat in the community.
31:32
You can speak to Vic directly all on the go.
31:34
And the reason that we went down this path is just like, we've had so many students go through our courses and stuff.
31:40
But when you have to be sitting at your laptop, you can't do it on the go.
31:44
It's kind of, I mean, everyone's busy.
31:46
And we can notify you when things in the stock market happen.
31:49
We've got so.
31:50
Yeah.
31:51
So it's really, really great.
31:53
We're doing this morning.
31:54
We do a little update, a stock market update in three weeks.
31:58
So you can be on the pulse.
32:00
Wherever you are going about your daily lives.
32:04
We got you.
32:05
If you want to try, we've got a free trial for seven days.
32:08
And yeah, jump in and have a look around.
32:10
Comment.
32:11
Talk to us.
32:12
Share your ideas.
32:13
That's a really cool space.
32:14
And yeah, we've got all of the, we've put a link in the podcast show notes.
32:17
You can find out more.
32:22
When you look back at your own financial choices and the way that you've lived your life.
32:28
Is there anything that you, I don't know, like your own personal relationship with money has evolved over time?
32:36
Or what you feel is enough and fulfilling has changed over time.
32:41
Like Carrie, I know she's your alter ego and not, you know, I'm very, very, very true in the later seasons.
32:47
But her attraction to like the shiny nice things like beautiful shoes is kind of the opposite of the idea of what you probably should put your money in if you're trying to invest in being a financially secure place.
33:01
Has that changed for you?
33:02
Yeah.
33:03
There are a couple of different aspects of that.
33:06
Number one, in a place like New York City, you know, so much of that is about fitting in.
33:14
You know, when you're in your 20s or 30s, like the right handbag or the right shoes, it's important and it gives you a sense of belonging.
33:25
I promise you, when you're 65, that's the last thing that is going to make you feel like, you know, you're an insider.
33:33
But when you're young, people are much more hyper attuned to signals of belonging to certain groups.
33:43
That's really what that's about. It's young people in their 20s who go crazy, you know, buying vintage handbags and clothes and labels.
33:55
And when you get older, it's like that kind of stuff is less, it's less important because you're much more established and who you are and where you fit into the taking order.
34:06
But that's very important as, you know, somebody who's young and you're competing and you're in the media business or, you know, I mean, look at everybody on social media.
34:17
The other problem is, you know, not making enough money to feel like you can invest, you know, if you're really living hand to mouth, you figure, hey, you know what?
34:29
I'm going to splurge and I'm going to buy that pair of shoes because at least I'm going to feel good.
34:33
It would be great if we all made a lot more money and made enough money to invest in the stock market.
34:41
I mean, I happened to own like two properties, I own an apartment and I own a house in the Hamptons, both small, but still I own them.
34:53
And, you know, that's probably the most important thing as a woman is to, you know, have your own real estate, you know, it's not a room with a view.
35:04
It's an apartment with a view or a house with a view.
35:08
So I think it's really, really important for women to invest in, I suppose the stock market, which is pretty scary, not if you listen to the podcast.
35:21
I was like, can you going to say it or why?
35:24
Yes, but it's, you know, there are more and more women who are, you know, reaching out to other women.
35:31
And I think that there's a comfort in that for women.
35:34
It's like, well, if these women can invest in the stock market, I can too.
35:39
So it's really about seeing more representation and financial areas.
35:45
Would you say that when you were younger, you spent money on frivolous shit.
35:48
And as you've gotten older, you'd invested in things that you realize are going to appreciate over time.
35:52
Is that kind of how you've generally, you've started to be with your money?
35:57
I've never been a huge consumer.
36:02
You know, I'm not 100% for consumerism.
36:05
When I was a kid, you know, it was, you had one or two good things that you had for your whole life.
36:11
So that's really my attitude is invest in those couple of really good pieces.
36:18
But, you know, we live in a totally different time now.
36:21
We live in a time of fast fashion, etc.
36:25
And, you know, people are really pushed to buy all kinds of things that they don't necessarily need.
36:31
That's the world that we live in.
36:33
No, I think it's very true. The whole instant gratification.
36:36
But I've also never paired it with like fitting in as well.
36:40
When you're that young and you're that impressionable, it is a function of I want it now because I want to fit in.
36:46
And it's how do you psychologically change that for a young person when if you do it, if you invest now,
36:55
the less you have to invest over your lifetime if you start earlier.
36:59
But usually that's an a period of time when you don't have a lot of money or your priorities are different because you want to fit in
37:06
and you want to be friends with those people and you want the nice, shiny things.
37:09
And so, as you get more comfortable in your own skin as well and you get more self confidence,
37:15
you don't, as you get older, you don't have to spend money on those things.
37:19
You've got less time, but you've got more money to invest in. Oh, yes, just say the whole life cycle.
37:25
I also think that it's about getting the message out to young women.
37:30
Here's how you can save. Here's how you can invest.
37:34
Here's how you can make your money, make money for you, which is something that men do.
37:41
You know, men have all kinds of money systems in place.
37:46
You know, the biggest one seems to be the pyramid scheme.
37:49
But I've also noticed that, you know, one of the things that men do is when you have one man who makes money,
37:56
you have all of these little satellite men who are taking a little bit of that guy's money.
38:03
It's like the lawyers, the investors, the this, the that.
38:10
I mean, it's a, you know, men have created this whole financial structure where, you know,
38:17
that they've denied that those structures to women traditionally.
38:22
Because they think for a long time we haven't, because we haven't been a part of the club,
38:25
we don't know how to pass it on.
38:28
But now that we're starting to learn about it, I think the most crucial part is that we talk to each other about it.
38:35
And that's kind of what I love about sex and the city and the way that you've written so many of your novels is into weaving
38:43
that, you know, female friendship and the importance of lifting each other up and really accepting where each other are at.
38:50
And I think that when it comes to money, because there's been such a gap so long,
38:55
if you have a little bit of that information, sharing it and like talking to your friends,
38:59
that's literally the best thing that we can do.
39:02
And we see that all the time in their podcast being shared around.
39:05
You're like, oh, amazing, because it's wanting other women to succeed.
39:09
It's wanting other women to have that same financial security that is so long has been amongst guys group chats,
39:16
but not, you know, at Poptown, I have with the girls, but it's just, it shouldn't be so separated because money and business is not masculine.
39:25
But we'll see it in that way.
39:28
But I will say this, the older you get, the more important money is.
39:34
And as somebody who's 65, money is the most important thing that you can have when you're older.
39:43
It is so interesting because most people say time.
39:46
You know, everybody tries to tell you that it's something different.
39:50
Money is the most important thing when you get to be older.
39:54
It is, unfortunately, it's true.
39:57
It buys you so many things.
40:00
It allows you to do things.
40:03
It's like the people who I see who are older, who are the happiest are the people who have the most money.
40:09
They're the ones who are still out.
40:11
They're still having adventures.
40:12
They're still doing things.
40:14
You need money.
40:15
Do you think you would have done things differently?
40:18
Had you had your time again with that,
40:20
whether that be marrying someone and combining your finances,
40:23
whether that be doubling down on your career,
40:26
where you have better financial decisions.
40:30
You can look back and respect,
40:33
and we can all learn from that.
40:35
And so if there's anyone, I mean,
40:37
we've got a huge range of like ages that listen to this podcast from 20 to 70.
40:42
And we get reminded of it often from voice notes from six years old.
40:46
We love the podcast.
40:47
Obviously, this won't necessarily resonate with people who are maybe older than 50,
40:53
but I guess for younger you,
40:56
is there anything that you wish you knew or would have done differently?
40:59
I would have thought a lot more about making money when I was in my 20s.
41:07
And maybe I would have done something differently.
41:12
Like when I was younger in my 20s, I thought like,
41:15
oh, maybe I should try to write for TV.
41:18
Well, I kind of sometimes wish that I had done that,
41:22
but I had this idea in my head that I was going to be a novelist.
41:25
I was going to win the Pulitzer Prize.
41:27
Everybody was going to love me.
41:29
And, you know, it was this whole artistic ego.
41:34
And for a really long time until I was in my mid 30s,
41:40
I barely made a living wage.
41:43
You know, I made enough money to get by as a freelance writer.
41:48
It was a very precarious existence.
41:51
Do you think there's an element of you having such passion and drive
41:55
and what you do that resulted in it being financially successful?
42:01
Because you loved writing and you had a dream and you had a vision
42:05
of I am going to be a writer.
42:07
Because a lot of people would have given up, you know,
42:09
if you're living on barely a minimum wage,
42:11
a lot of people would have given up and gone into something else
42:14
that they maybe didn't make them as happy,
42:16
but they could earn a better paycheck from.
42:18
That's true.
42:19
And that is the one part that I don't think about.
42:23
But I was very determined to succeed really against all odds.
42:29
Because I didn't start writing sex in the city until I was 34.
42:35
So that was really a pretty long time.
42:38
You know, I'd been a writer professionally since I was 19.
42:42
So that was 15 years.
42:44
But you know what, in that time,
42:46
you didn't have to make it right away.
42:48
I mean, New York was full of creative, passionate people.
42:54
You know, in those days,
42:56
you didn't have to be rich to have access to interesting people,
43:03
interesting places.
43:05
Now, things have changed.
43:07
I mean, now New York is a place that's full of private clubs.
43:10
That never existed before.
43:12
It was really about like, are you a cool person?
43:15
You will get invited to, you know,
43:18
the cool restaurant openings, etc.
43:21
I mean, there were people who were like on the scene.
43:24
And now, I mean, there's a club here that it's $250,000
43:29
to become a member.
43:31
It's full.
43:32
You're on the Hamptons.
43:33
Are you surrounded by really wealthy people?
43:37
Is that like, I mean,
43:39
I'm taking it from gossip girl law, which I watch all the time.
43:42
But I thought the Hamptons was like quite, let's say,
43:44
do you find there's quite a stark contrast
43:47
or that's like reinforced a lot because of the fact that you're there?
43:50
Well, the reality is that maybe there are like a couple of houses
43:55
that are $2 million.
43:57
The average house is $5 million.
44:00
You know, there are enormous houses out there,
44:03
$10,000 square feet bigger than that
44:07
because very, very rich people park their money in a big house.
44:13
And you know, these houses are empty all winter.
44:16
There's a huge income disparity that didn't exist 15 years ago.
44:22
That's why I'm like, women, get the money.
44:25
Get the money.
44:26
Get the money.
44:27
Don't marry a rich man.
44:29
Forget about Mr. Bing.
44:31
Yeah.
44:32
Get the money.
44:33
It's going like, look, it's so hard.
44:37
I get about Mr. Bing.
44:39
Become Mr. Bing.
44:40
Yeah.
44:41
Get the money.
44:42
Love it, love it, love it.
44:44
It's so annoying how hard it is because honestly,
44:47
I think that there's a lot to be said for, you know,
44:51
being in, we've been in this startup, you know, for five years.
44:55
And it is pretty hard.
44:58
But, you know, like business is hard.
45:00
And there's a reason, I think, that people choose to marry someone
45:05
and stick to it.
45:06
Marry Mr. Bing.
45:07
Well, it's easier to marry the Mr. Bing, isn't it?
45:09
It's much harder to like...
45:11
Well, you're assuming Mr. Bing is a nice guy.
45:14
He could be an absolute a-hole.
45:17
And then your whole life is going to be shit.
45:20
Rather than just a few short years of tough work.
45:22
I'm not saying I would have it differently.
45:24
I'm obviously choosing that.
45:26
And even if I'm not financially successful,
45:29
I still would be proud of not opting for an option
45:32
that felt easier.
45:33
I'm always can opt for the hard option.
45:35
My therapist is like, what's wrong with you?
45:37
Stop going for the things that are difficult.
45:39
There's a nice path.
45:40
Oh no, but here's one through the mat and under the fence
45:42
and through the...
45:43
You're like...
45:44
No, there's definitely days that I'm like,
45:47
oh, you know what?
45:48
I'm just going to make a hinge profile that's like,
45:50
I'm looking for someone with $2,000,000.
45:54
Looking for a man and finding it to the trust fund.
45:56
Yep.
45:57
You feel that way?
45:58
Oh, but I know I wouldn't be happy.
46:00
I know it's not what I want.
46:02
It's just that.
46:03
Well, you know what?
46:04
That's a job.
46:05
Being with a really, really rich man is a job.
46:08
No, you're right.
46:09
And some women are good at it.
46:12
And some women can look the other way.
46:16
But if you can't, you can't.
46:19
I mean, I could never do it.
46:21
The most sexist people in the world are rich men.
46:26
Because there hardly are any women in their world.
46:31
Yeah.
46:32
As we see in the 1%.
46:34
So the women who are in their world are the wives and mothers.
46:41
And these guys, I don't...
46:44
You know, the rich men who I know,
46:46
they don't have a ton of respect for women.
46:49
They don't, no matter what they say.
46:51
It's a closed club.
46:53
And it's very sexist.
46:55
So we should kind of feel sorry for them a bit.
46:58
Because, you know, they don't have any powerful women around them.
47:01
So, you know, I kind of feel for them.
47:03
But also, like, the power that you feel and the confidence that you feel
47:07
when you have the money in your own pocket,
47:10
and someone else's that you're trying to pull it out of,
47:12
is incredible.
47:14
And I think that then a few times that by a shit load,
47:18
which is what the 1% have,
47:20
can you imagine the power that they would feel,
47:23
and particularly towards a woman?
47:25
Like, I think you're right.
47:27
If they very much would still see women as second class citizens,
47:29
all they have there was,
47:31
they would just feel so far up on their hypers
47:34
that everyone else below is like.
47:36
I even remember when I was very little
47:39
in having to ask my parents for pocket money
47:42
and relying on my parents financially,
47:44
even at such a young age,
47:46
the minute I could go and get my own job.
47:48
And I remember asking my parents, you know,
47:50
at what age will people hire me?
47:52
Like, and I was about 11.
47:54
And they're probably like, no one yet, darling.
47:57
But I went and did a paper round,
47:59
and I had my own, and I earned like $3 away.
48:04
It was like nothing.
48:05
But for me, it was the whole independence that came with it.
48:09
It wasn't the dollar amount.
48:11
It was, if I want to choose how I spend my money and live my life
48:14
and, you know, make those decisions,
48:16
I need to go and earn my own money.
48:17
And so, yeah, I think from a very young age,
48:20
I have never...
48:22
I've wanted to get away from relying on someone,
48:24
as quickly as I can.
48:26
Can I just say, Candace,
48:28
I just want to, on behalf of an entire generation?
48:32
Yes.
48:33
To say thank you, because it is really hard
48:36
to be the tall poppy and to stick up out of the grass
48:39
and do things differently.
48:41
But even though it might seem like a millions of years ago,
48:45
and you're probably like, I'm actually kind of sick
48:47
of talking about sex in the city or my other work.
48:49
But really, like that is reverberating
48:52
and it will for generations.
48:54
So thank you for putting your words out there,
48:56
because...
48:57
Taking one for the team.
48:59
I'm sitting here in a blazer, being like, yeah,
49:01
I've got a blazer on, and I'll sit here and be a business woman
49:04
if I want to.
49:05
You know, like, you've really written that into society.
49:07
And, yeah, I just wanted to say thank you,
49:09
and thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us
49:12
because, yeah, you are an inspiration to me now.
49:15
Thank you.
49:16
Thank you, guys.
49:17
Thank you.
49:18
Well, it's been so much fun talking to you.
49:19
I can talk to you for another hour.
49:21
We won't do that, too.
49:22
But we really appreciate it.
49:24
And also, we will definitely be using the...
49:26
Make money!
49:27
Make money, money, money!
49:30
Thank you so much for listening to Raisin the Curve.
49:33
These conversations are designed to teach you everything
49:35
you need to know to be better with your money,
49:37
saving, to investing, to talking with your friends
49:39
about your salaries, or that stuff.
49:41
And if you like what you heard, we would love if you could
49:43
please hit subscribe wherever you're listening,
49:45
and leave a comment.
49:46
Let us know what you thought about the episode.
49:48
And it only takes one second, and it would really make our
49:51
week a month, our year.
49:52
Yeah, yeah, so please do it.
49:54
Okay, love you.
49:55
Bye.