Latest / AI and the Future of Work: Artificial Intelligence in the Workplace, Business, Ethics, HR, and IT for AI Enthusiasts, Leaders and Academics / Will AI eliminate jobs? Hear what best-selling author, futurist, and popular TEDx speaker Mark McCrindle says the data reveals.

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Will AI eliminate jobs? Hear what best-selling author, futurist, and popular TEDx speaker Mark McCrindle says the data reveals. · AI and the Future of Work: Artificial Intelligence in the Workplace, Business, Ethics, HR, and IT for AI Enthusiasts, Leaders and Academics

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: because the mining sector is undergoing massive AI transformation at the moment.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: In fact, we've got these massive rigs, these big trucks that drive through these open-cut mine sites now that are all driverless And they are controlled by operators that are based in Perth, the capital city closest to where these remote mining areas are.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: So they are prime candidates for the transfer to AI.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending on where you're listening.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to AI and the Future of Work, just again for making this one of the most downloaded podcasts about the topic.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: If you enjoy what we do, please like, comment and share in your favorite podcast app And we'll keep bringing you amazing conversations like the one we have planned for today.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: As always, i'm your host, dan Turchin, ceo of PeopleRain, the AI platform for IT and HR employee service.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I'm also an investor and an advisor to more than 30 AI-first companies And, as you know, a firm believer in the power of technology to make humans better.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: If you're passionate about changing the world with AI, or maybe just looking for your next adventure, let's talk.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: We learn weekly from AI thought leaders on this podcast And, of course, the added bonus is you get one AI fun fact.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Today's fun fact comes from Katie Nuggets author, nisha Aria, who writes about the ethics of AI.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: She describes five areas that require consideration before adopting AI solutions Bias and discrimination, privacy, transparency, autonomous applications and job security, all of which I think we cover, if not weekly, at least every other week or so, on this podcast.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: She cites interesting data, including research from Pegasystems which revealed 72% of 6,000 people surveyed said they are concerned about being forced to use AI at work.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: These are all important topics, ones we discuss frequently and will continue to do so in the future.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: As always, we'll link to the full article in today's show notes.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: But now shifting to this week's conversation, we often discuss the technology that is automating the future of work.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: We perhaps don't spend enough time talking about the human element.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: This is actually like being an employee whose career may be at risk or whose employer may not share her values.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: The future of work is about employers embracing the humanists of every employee and creating safe places.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Today's guest is an authority in the future of work field, and I've been looking forward to getting his perspectives on how we're doing, as an industry, using technology to humanize work.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Mark McCrindle is a bestselling author, futurist demographer and popular TEDx speaker, who is regarded as one of Australia's foremost social researchers.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: He works with senior leaders to help them devise strategies for making their products and services future-proof.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Mark's also the host of the Future Report, a podcast featuring the themes of his social research, and, without further ado, mark, it really is my pleasure to welcome you to the podcast.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Let's get started by having you share a bit more about your background and how you got into the space.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Just a delight to be chatting with you too.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on your podcast.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: I've always had an interest in people And so after school and after university to get a psychology degree and I found that fascinating.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: but moved after that undergrad into the sociology side of things which, if you like, is not just about individuals but about how groups interact and how society functions.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: And from that psychology meets sociology.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I started this business researching people And that's through surveys and in-depth interviews and focus groups, really trying to understand how we operate in our society, or as customers or as employees or just as members of the community.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: And since then we've moved into the field of demographics, which is, if you like, you know how we are as a nation or as a people, as a community, in terms of population and flows and housing and household structures and family types.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: And all of that gives, if you like, a quantitative overlay on the qualitative side of who we are and how we interact and back to the psychological side of who we are as individuals.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So that's been my journey to link those disciplines together in this field of social research.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: You authored Work Well Being, which is kind of like the definitive source about how, as employers, we can create safe places that get the best out of our employees.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I'd love to know what inspired you to write the book and maybe if you could just pick one thing you learned or a bit of research that surprised you and might surprise the audience.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Well, the subtitle of the book sort of sums up, i guess, our motivation.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: It's leading thriving teams in rapidly changing times.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: And clearly we've observed the last few years and seen how rapidly changing they are, particularly from a workplace perspective.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: How we work, where we work, how we interact, it's all changed.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: And the question for us is well, how do you lead thriving teams?
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: in that regard, you know, we've all seen a lot of people really cut loose almost without an anchor, wondering, well, where do I belong and how do I get that?
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: social interaction and the norms, the mores of the past are not normative today And we've seen the rise in the mental health pandemic in in, if you like, the rise in anxiety levels, in more isolation and individualization.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: And yet work offers a real solution to that.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Our workplaces are based around teams.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: They're one of the few social bottlenecks through which we pass on a regular basis, where there's meaningful and regular social interaction and connection.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: So we wanted to work out, with that great opportunity for work and teams and us coming together in our organizations, how can we lead meaningfully, how can we create thriving?
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: How can we ensure our team members not just bring about productivity outcomes but walk away as better people as healthier and more engaged and flourishing, because that was really the purpose of the book And probably one takeaway was just fascinating.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: When we ran this high level research and we looked at organizations, we surveyed employees, we looked at how engaged they were in the workplace, we looked at the sort of leadership they're exposed to And we found a very strong correlation between employees that had leaders that would engage with them, that had healthy workplace relationships, that, in other words, had thriving team processes, a strong correlation between those teams and organizations and how engaged the team members were, how strongly referring they were of the brand, how much stronger tenure they had and how even the performance and productivity was greater.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: So it turns out that it is good for business to look after our team members because it does bring an ROI.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Hopefully that's not the only reason we lead well and we create thriving teams, but it does lead to that return on investment.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: It does lead to better business outcomes.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Hopefully that's obvious to all, but we now have the research to back it up and that was an exciting outcome to find.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: So a lot of business leaders believe in the concepts that you just talked about, but aren't sure how to measure the quality of employee experiences.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Talk us through, from a researcher's perspective, how you collect the data and then how you turn it into something that is quantifiable and or it's empirical.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: But how do you measure the quality once you collect the data?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Well, an example on that.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: We looked at employees and we asked them what sort of leadership style are you exposed to?
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: And obviously there's the autocratic, hierarchical style and there's more mid-level versions through to very flat structures and powered teams where the individual really has a say, they're given good direction, good training, good mentoring, but it's certainly not autocratic and chain of command type structures.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: And we found that employees preferred that more engaging, flat structure of leadership that was more empowering than it was powering over.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: And we also found, for example, those that were in that sort of organization and therefore they had that mentoring, they had that input, they were given agency and decision making opportunities.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: They were trained so that they could grow in their own leadership and have charge over their area.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: They also were the employees most likely to say I'll still be with this organization in two years' time.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: That's the tenure outcome.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: They were most likely to have what we call the net retention score, so they're likely to not only be there but to refer this organization to others as a place to work.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: So that's the employer brand outcome.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: They were also more likely to be engaged, and there was a couple of questions that looked at engagement measures as well.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: So it turns out that you can have quantitative data looking at the sort of leadership or organizational team culture or social interaction, and then also look at those outcomes of the employee.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And that's where that strong correlation came.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: And it was in hard numbers, it was in metrics.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: So it does show what I'm sure we all know that if we look after our team, they'll look after us.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Then, if we have an organization where we can facilitate good social interactions amongst the team members, that they will not only be more thriving in their team environment, but they'll look forward to work, but they're more likely to be engaged and produce better outcomes as well.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, the data backed up what I'm sure we would expect to be the case.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: So let me challenge that a little bit.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: We get very comfortable casually talking about better employee experiences directly translating into better business or customer outcomes.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: But in your research are there ever examples where maybe what the employee wants Let's say unlimited PTO or a very flat hierarchical management structure where in their proper document What the employee wants may not necessarily directly correlate to better business outcomes?
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, you do get that Here.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: We are in an era where people want flexible work.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: They want to be able to work from home, they want to spend time with their family.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: They're looking to work in a place of diversity and connections where they've got good friends at work.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Now let me contrast that to one of the biggest sectors in Australia, the mining sector.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: The mining sector can't offer that.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Most of the employees fly in, fly out.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: They fly in to remote areas of this big con in the middle of nowhere.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: They live in these modular houses which really are bunk rooms.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: There's no lifestyle.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: They're largely alongside other blokes just for two weeks on, and then they fly out back to their families for two weeks.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Similar in mining rigs and off-shore mining and other things Very low quality of life, very low social interaction, not flexible in terms of time and scheduling and not particularly conducive to family life and friendships and all of that.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: So how does the mining get it done?
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: in this country?
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: They have to pay people between 20% and 40% more than otherwise they would earn.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: In other words, they have to buy them.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: They have to say you're not going to get any of those things that you want, but we can pay you a lot more than you're getting back in that city job.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Are you okay with it?
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: And they do.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: They fill the ranks, they're able to get it, but here's what they find The tenure is very low.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: People are not engaged and they're not particularly low.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: So they will go there.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: They will do the time maybe a year, maybe 80 months, maybe two years.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: These are mainly young people.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: They'll stack up the cash so they can get that deposit on the house and then they'll leave that organisation and they will get back to something that is more conducive.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Or maybe they'll stay with the mining company to take the city job, the office job, and move into management.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: So that is all to say that, yes, companies can survive without offering any of these lifestyle benefits that employees look for, but it's going to cost them a lot of money and ultimately they're not going to have the loyalty and the long-termism with those employees.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: So it can be done, but it's not an ideal situation.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Alternatively, we can, and for most of us in business, in our corporate roles here, we probably can't afford to pay 40% above market rates and we probably want longer-term corporate knowledge that comes not just in one or two years, but over the longer term, we probably want to train our people so they can step up into leadership as well.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: So it does turn out that those aspects of the flexibility, the work-life balance, the social interaction, the flat-ass structure, the empowerment, the mentoring, the training, the broad job description, all of that does matter and it does lead to better outcomes if we are in a sector where we can possibly provide it.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: So we're here to talk about AI and the future of work, and those two examples that you gave mining and jobs on oil rigs are really good examples of jobs that are either dull, dirty or dangerous, which tend to be good candidates, or autonomous intervention.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: But let's even fan that out more broadly Are you hearing more and more not to put words in your mouth, but are employees more concerned that their jobs may be at risk of being automated?
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: And, if so, what's your coaching to employers to stabilize employees at a time when, look, the fact is, the AI technologies are advancing, there is some threat for certain types of careers, perhaps like mining, where it's possible that a bot could do that job in a way that's less expensive and safer.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: How do you encourage employers to have these kinds of conversations about the existential threat that AI poses to their careers?
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Well, that's right, dan, and spot on without observation, because the mining sector is undergoing massive AI transformation at the moment.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: In fact, we've got these massive rigs, these big trucks that drive through these open-cut mine sites now, that are all driverless and they are controlled by operators that are based in Perth, the capital city closest to where these remote mining areas are.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: So they are private candidates for the transfer to AI.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And that's not a bad thing, because if we can move some of those jobs that, as you said, have those 3Ds and aren't particularly creating human flourishing, they're not particularly growing people.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: It's just an exchange of time for money.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: I mean that's not particularly aspirational for us as humans, with all the creativity and the social skills and the ability to learn and grow and lead people and connect across diversity.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Aren't we better in investing the human skills?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: And that's what we're finding in the mining sector.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: They're upskilling people, they're training them into new areas and they're creating better lifestyles for these workers than on these mine sites, and that's why I don't think we need to fear AI.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Technology in the future will be used for what technology has always been used for throughout history, that is, to create better human flourishing, better connection, better lifestyles.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: For us, it's a human-centric view of the future, it's not a technology-centric one, and so we will use technology for good.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Now, obviously, it always somehow gets used in negative ways And there's always a fear when new technology comes in.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: But I think, ultimately, we will look back at the use of AI and say you know what?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: it is added to our lives, not taken away from it, and it's allowed us to work in more value-adding areas.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: You know, what can technology do?
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: so well, at the moment, it's not designed to connect with people and make complex human decisions and build bridges across the diversity of our population.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: You know, even in the future, the most essential work skills will be human ones, and we'll use technology to buffer out some of those repetitive processors and things that we're not as geared up to do.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: But it will be a human-centered one, and I encourage young people, you know, to develop not just their technology skills but their people skills, their leadership skills, their communication skills, their ability to make decisions in complexity, understanding all the nuance of those decisions.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: That's what leadership is about And that is not going to be outsourced to a bot anytime soon.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: A few years ago, when I said this, it seemed like science fiction.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: And now not only is it a reality, but it's a reality.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: in the next 12 to 24 months, it's likely that, through automation, every knowledge worker will be able to produce the same output as they do today, let's say, in a 40 hour work week, in 30 hours.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: So potentially they get back a day, or a day plus a week.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: What does that do to the human?
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: experience.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: What does it mean to be human when our work life potentially occupies a quarter or more less than what it previously did?
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And what's your coaching to the humans out there thinking about how to reinvent themselves when they're essentially going to be working alongside a bot who's perhaps doing some of what they thought was core to their job better than they could ever do it?
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, it's a great point and a fast emerging reality as well, as you sketch that out, dan, and I think that, firstly, what we need to do is decouple when we hear the word work from employment, when we hear the word work from payment, because we're made for work.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: We are at our best when we work, but, let's face it, when we retire we will still want to work and make contributions, but we won't be doing it for money anymore.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Think about those parents that have taken time out of paid work to raise the children, to educate them, to make some commitments in their communities.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Think about all those volunteers who are working and hopefully we all do a little bit of that here and there, but we're not earning money for that.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: So work is far richer than just exchanging time for money.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Work is far more than just paid employment, and what we will do in the future, when we have more time, when we can achieve the paid work outcomes using technology in a shorter period, is that we will reallocate that time to do other meaningful work, and maybe it will be through volunteering in our communities.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe it will be spending more time with our families, maybe it will be working around our house or working with community groups and neighbors.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Maybe we'll have more time to allocate to see, beyond our own walls and doors, our society thriving.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: I think it's an exciting opportunity.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: We know that people who get to the point in their life where they can ease off on the paid work they say that it's the most productive time in their life because they can make other contributions to community, to the church or to their social group or to their community or service organization, whatever it might be.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: And that's all work, whether we earn money for it or whether it's just a contribution we make.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: We grow through it.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: It's part of our identity.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: It offers the opportunity for contributions and impacts.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: That's what work is all about.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: So I don't think we need to fear, as we downshift through technology, less time in paid work, employment or even if people go through a rough spot and they're not particularly employed or earning in that same way, because they can allocate their time in other productive ways and other contributive ways, even beyond just the contractual arrangements.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: You and I are both sociologists by training and we are fascinated by organizations how they emerge, how they exist, how they grow almost like organisms, why they exist, how they die, etc.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: In light of the comments that you just made, what's the future of organizational structures when organizations may be less dependent on people?
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: we may have a combination of machines and people.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: The outcomes that we're generating or the output of the labor may look radically different.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: We may need different leaders, not to beat the witness too much, but I would love to get your perspective on the future of organizations in light of the increasing presence of AI.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, there's a lot of dynamism in our workplaces now.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, already you've got people that might be in a team or you're working on a project with.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Some are in the room, in the office and some are virtual, as we've changed how we work or meetings a hybrid, and so we've got that.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Obviously, we've seen our workplaces over the last 20 or 30 years become far more diverse in terms of males and females, in terms of cultural backgrounds, in terms of skills and generations and ages.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: So we're bridging more gaps there.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Perhaps on the average team there's some full-timers, there's some part-timers, maybe there's some contractors who aren't actually employed by this organization, but they're contract workers, gig economy workers that are coming in to achieve the task.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: They're on the team even though they've got a different employer in that sense.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: So diversity defines the modern workplace And yet we come together for the purpose.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: We achieve those projects, we interact.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: That's why I think leadership is so required, because we're leading people in the room, out of the room new people, long-termers, different age groups and the like And we've got to bring across that diversity, outcomes, alignment, focus and connection.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And I think the future will just add to that because we will have some AI in the mix.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: There will be some bots, if you like, whether that's through an application or a tool, or whether that's.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: There are even robotics in the mix, and they will be tools useful in this people-centric future.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: I think that we do need to be really clarified in terms of defining a difference between people and technology.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, technology will become a little bit more sentient.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: In a sense, we will almost have an emotional connection, as some people do with their robo-vacuum cleaners in the house.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: They give them names now because they work harder than any other person in the house as they go back and forth keeping clean carpets.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: But clearly we need to keep in our mind, as humans, the value of the human experience and life and dignity, separate from tools or technology.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: But notwithstanding that, we'll be interacting across all of this diversity with fellow human travellers as well as technology.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: But if we've done so well in adapting to the diversity that we know now and the hybrid work opportunities, I think we will adapt with new technologies into the future.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: What we don't want to lose sight of in all of this and we're talking about the team working together is that that is so that we can produce outcomes for the customer, for the client, for those outsider organisations, that too pays the bills.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: That's why we're there.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: And if we can create that flourishing internally, that belonging, that acceptance, that growth, that valuing, then that attitude, that emotional uplift is going to demonstrate itself to the outward facing world as they meet the community needs or the customer needs or the client needs.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: And I think that's why the internal customer comes first.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: The team member, if they're well looked after, will be in a great place to leverage from that to bring great outcomes for those external stakeholders.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: And that's what business is all about.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: The World Economic Forum says that in the next three years, ai will eliminate 85 million jobs but create 97 million new ones.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: So first question is do you buy that?
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: And then, assuming you do, or even if you don't, what do you think some of those jobs that will be created by AI and related technologies will look like?
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, i do.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: By that we're seeing that ourselves firsthand, i'm sure from our own experiences we are.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe as we drove around in the past we found toll collectors on brinches or roads that would put coins in their hands.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Obviously, that decades ago got automated In most organisations.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: There used to be a big reception or clerical pool, the typing pool, or admin teams that would do that typing and that office back office work.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: That's all gone as technologies replaced that and we do our own typing and admin and support, and so those trends have continued.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And if we look on the growth side of the new jobs, you know we've got a new metro system operating here in Sydney and it's a driverless one, so all of those trains are driverless.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: We've got a lot of warehousing now that's all driverless in terms of the picking and the operations.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Clearly, we've got a lot of AI in terms of now the generative AI that's writing blog articles and putting job descriptions out there and that's not requiring human input, and so the growth is continuing.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: You've got fields now for people in robotic technicians and who are utilising their technology skills to either create the programs or to guide the bots and who are using their skills to create the future of the AI world.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: So definitely old jobs disappearing as new jobs have emerged.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: So I think what that tells us is that we don't need to be fearful of the technology.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, some of the old jobs are going, but if we look at what those old jobs are, they were factory line old jobs.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: They were production line, they were things that were repetitive in tasks.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: How much better to redeploy those fellow citizens from that production line where they're putting that whole little that that rivet in that, in that, in that leather or whatever it was, to something where they can interact with people and bring about near great outcomes.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: In Australia, we've seen massive growth in the need because of our population.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: We've got an aging profile.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: We've got, you know, more needs in terms of ability and other issues, health and aged care, and so we've had a massive growth in the people working in the personal services area, in aged care, in healthcare and disability care, in the care of roles, and so we've got people that were working during very manual, procedural tasks now working with people and families and bring outcomes and they are far more fulfilled.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: And so there's going to be new needs with demographic change, with population change or with technology change And a lot of the old jobs disappearing are, quite frankly, ones that we didn't really need to keep.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Now it's confronting at the time when you're the one that's losing that job in the factory.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: We understand that.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: But there's also pretty good focus now on retraining, on out placement and on career counselling as they redeploy into new roles, and the outcomes generally for the individuals we found in our own research are, in the medium term, positive.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: We've had some great conversations on this show in the past about learning platforms that are helping employees in those jobs, that are easily automated, restill and upscale, and I firmly believe that that's the best version of a human, if we can use this opportunity, this introduction of these new technologies, as a way to pick up our head above the tree line and say, if I'm doing a job, it's, you know, to your point.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: You know the rivet punching, the hole in the leather or whatever it is.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: You know screwing the cap on the toothpaste.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe now's a good time, you know, maybe that's just not a great job for a human, and there's a job out there for me that is a great job for a human that I would love, and I really hope that that's the transformation that this current wave of technologies catalyzes.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Now, mark, let's say it's a decade from now and we're back having a version of this conversation.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Polish your crystal ball.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: What is one workplace behavior that is common that today would just seem like science fiction?
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Well, what a great thought.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, we sometimes can be a bit cynical about these forecasts and we say, you know, is that really going to happen?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Is that going to be the outcome?
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, let's for a moment think about workplace situations that are common now that a decade ago we never thought would happen, like being able to run my job from my spare room at home, you know, to work from home.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: How's that going to happen?
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Here we are in a work from home environment, or that you would get with your fellow team members and you would spend a day putting on a t-shirt, going out to maybe a shelter or an area to distribute food parcels to the vulnerable.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: You know these volunteering days, these team based days where we add contributions to our community.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: That's mainstream in a lot of corporations now.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Or take team building days where you go on a yacht together and you put up the sails and you guide the yacht around a harbour and you grow your leadership.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: You know that was unheard of 30 or 40 years ago.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: And now these team days where you develop that learning together through outdoor experiences is more normative.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: So I think in the future we'll see more of that.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I think that we will start to see AI used in a workplace setting to monitor how people interact, even from the physical interactions, the bump spaces, the socialization, who we go and talk to, this floor plan mapping to create better layouts and work spaces that create thriving and interaction.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Because here's the thing we don't need to go to an office or a workplace to get the work done.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: We can do that from home, and increasingly that'll be the case.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: And yet, a core part of the human experience is the social interaction, is the connection, and that doesn't just happen through a digital, it has to happen in face to face.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: We're tactile, we want to look someone in the eye, shake hand, give a hug, share a meal, have a coffee together and look someone in the eye.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: And so the future of work won't just be work from home.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: The future of work will be gathering in workplace and connecting and discussing around tables.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And so the workplace is being redesigned to win the commute, to make it worthwhile making that effort to come into the office for things that, let's face it, much of it we could do at home.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: So it's going to be about the collaboration when we come into the office.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: It's going to be about the interaction, it's going to be about the brainstorm, the discussion, the values, alignment, the interaction, the connection, and that'll do a good job of meeting those social needs we have as individuals as well, and therefore we're starting now to see AI map the interactions of us in our offices or work spaces to make sure they can be redesigned for better social and connection, inclusion and flourishing.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: You know we're going to see in the future, our offices, our work spaces be redesigned with that environment.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: We'll have larger kitchens and more opportunities to eat together.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: We will have more meeting rooms that will have as their purpose innovation, collaboration, discussion, not just productivity.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Forget about the workstations.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: We don't need to go to a place and sit there at a computer to get the work done, and so we'll see redesigns of workplaces.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: They'll probably end up having larger rooms and bigger spaces, so we're not even going to need to downsize them as much, but we will achieve more social purpose in our work spaces, and that's probably.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: We're just at the very start of that, but we'll see that even more in a decade than what we currently do.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: I look forward to having that conversation with you in a decade and we'll see how.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: We'll see how you did, but I have a good feeling about that one.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: That's a good set of thoughts, mark.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: We're unbelievably bad at time, but I'm not letting you off the hot seat without answering one last question for me.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Here I am in the cradle of Silicon Valley and you're in an amazing city, in Sydney.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes in Silicon Valley, we get caught up in our I call it navel gazing.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: We think that we have a monopoly on innovation or technology, but the more you travel around, the more you realize that just isn't true, and it's less true now than ever.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Give us the pitch on why innovative technologies can be born anywhere.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: But specifically, what's unique about the culture and the environment in Sydney?
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Well, often with slightly smaller populations, you've got the opportunity to trial something and Sydney and Australia is used by larger countries as a place to trial things.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: In fact, we in Australia looked in New Zealand to trial things because we've got more people in the city of Sydney, which is just over five million, than there are people in the whole country of New Zealand just around the five million mark.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: So it's funny how that works.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: But yes, smaller places are great places to trial things, to innovate them and then to adjust them, to then roll them out to other places.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: Smaller countries and you find it in New Zealand as we do here in Australia are places where you have to be innovative to thrive, because we're in a nation of five million as New Zealand, or 25 million as here in Australia.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: We can't compete with a nation of nearly 350 million like the US, or more than a billion in China and India, unless we innovate and adjust and adapt and do things differently.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: You've got to work harder to get noticed and to get breakthrough outside of the country and to enter larger marketplaces.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: So that forces innovation.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: We've got a culture where people are entrepreneurial.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: This nation, if we go back 30 years, it used to say there was a saying that Australia rides on the sheep's back, because there was agriculture and the wool industry that was big and then it became more the mining sector, but now it's actually small business and innovative business.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: We've got more than 9 in 10 Australians employed in the small or medium business sector.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: It's not large corporations that dominate here, and so small businesses by their nature have to adjust to compete against the big boys and Silicon Valley and the global tech companies.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: And so all of those factors, I think, create a muscular, constantly adapting mindset to innovate, adjust, be creative and thrive.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: And probably the final thing I'd say about Australia that does create it as a great little crucible of innovation is that we are the most multicultural nation on the planet.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: We've got almost 40% of our population was born overseas.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: That's twice the proportion of overseas born residents, as you have in the US, and even the UK has just, i think, 14% of all residents born overseas.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: We're closer, as I said, closing on that 40% mark.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: So we're very culturally diverse And we're on the hub of Asia, we're on the Asian rim, and that's where so many of our arrivals have come from, and so that means that things have to work across different cultures, there's thriving different language groups And it in a sense gives you the world in a city And if things work well here in Sydney, then through our connections, through our population, you've got a lot of connections into Asia and from there the world.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: So where we're located, close to the epicenter of the global population in terms of Asia, from our own population connection through migration and that cultural diversity gives us other reasons to innovate and adapt and global opportunities And that's another reason businesses tend to either locate here or thrive from here down under in Sydney, australia.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Mark, i'm sold, and when you're ready to declare your candidacy for mayor of Sydney, i will be the chair of your campaign.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: How about that, mark?
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: that's all the time we have for today, but it was great hanging out.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I was looking forward to this one, and you didn't disappoint.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Great to catch up Dan Appreciate it.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Thanks for all you do Take care.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Mark, where can the audience learn more about you and your work?
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, i can go to mcgrindlecom, so that's M-N-O-C-R-I-N-D-L-Ecom.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: We put lots of our research up there publicly or downloadable lots of infographics as well, where we take those reports and put them in a simple A5 pictorial downloadable, and there's lots of reports and resources as well, and you're going to access some of those books that we've mentioned today, that we've written.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: So mcgrindlecom is the place to go.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: That's all the time we have for this week on AI and the Future of Work.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: As always, i'm your host, dan Turchin from PeopleRain, and of course, we're back next week with another fascinating guest.