Latest / Reasonably Happy with Paul Ollinger / Money, Fame, and Misery: Meet the Beatles

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Money, Fame, and Misery: Meet the Beatles · Reasonably Happy with Paul Ollinger

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everybody, welcome back to Reasonably Happy.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: My guest today is Peter Doggett.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: Peter is one of the great rock music writers of our time.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's right, rock and roll.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: The teenagers love rock and roll.
• 0:13
  He's also a man who has spent decades studying what happens
• 0:16
  when ambition,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: fame,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: and enormous piles of money and drugs collide.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Today we're going to talk about Peter's book,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: You Never Give Me Your Money,
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: a brilliant and deeply human book about the Beatles,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: not at their creative peak,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: but at their breaking point,
• 0:31
  when the most successful band in history discovered that global
• 0:34
  adoration and
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: unimaginable wealth do not,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: in fact,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: lead to contentment and enlightenment.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: but do lead to lawsuits, divorce, and sometimes heroin abuse.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Peter has written for Rolling Stone,
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: Mojo,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Q,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: and many others,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: and his work has this rare quality.
• 0:52
  It makes you love the music more while feeling slightly better
• 0:56
  about your own messy
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: life in comparison to that of the artists.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Today we talk about the Beatles,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: money,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: fame,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: addiction,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: ego,
• 1:04
  and the uncomfortable truth that success doesn't guarantee
• 1:07
  happiness and sometimes
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: just turns up the volume on your own problems.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: This is Peter Doggett.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: You're never going to be perfectly happy all the time.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: The best you can hope for is to be reasonably happy.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Reasonably happy.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks for doing this.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: I really enjoyed reading the book.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up a big Beatles fan.
• 1:32
  But one of the things I discovered by reading this book was how
• 1:35
  little I actually knew.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:38
  I think the the narrative that we all accept as the Beatles
• 1:41
  legend and the nitty
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: gritty on the ground details are significantly different.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: They are,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: and also it's not really in the Beatles' interest,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: either personally or sort of in business terms,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: for them to tell the real story,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: because the sort of smoothed out story is much more commercially viable,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: What inspired you to write the book?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was something I'd written a lot about the Beatles.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I used to work for a magazine called Record Collector in the 80s and 90s.
• 2:16
  And I had written more about the Beatles in those 20 years than
• 2:20
  any other person on
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: the planet,
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would think.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not necessarily proud of that.
• 2:26
  And so by the time I left 99,
• 2:29
  2000,
• 2:29
  I'd had this idea for this book for years.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept thinking, oh, somebody else would do it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't want to go back into that Beatles world again.
• 2:39
  And then the years went by and the years went by and I became
• 2:42
  much less jaded on
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: the subject of the Beatles.
• 2:46
  And I kept accumulating information and interviews and putting
• 2:51
  things in a big box in my office.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually I thought,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: if nobody else is going to write this book,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have to do it.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I did.
• 2:58
  You know,
• 2:59
  one of the problems about writing about the past is that people
• 3:01
  keep dying.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And to the point that I'm going to be very cheeky, just excuse me.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a new book out in England, which is called.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wonderful.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Of Sir Brian Watson and the Beach Boys.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a book about American legends.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And is it available in the States?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Of course not.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I use that not just as a shameless plug,
• 3:24
  but also because the Beach Boys who are still alive are now
• 3:30
  well into their 80s.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Anybody else who worked with them is in their 80s or older.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the human memory, I mean, I've experienced it so many times.
• 3:40
  interviewing people um and about my own life as well i mean you
• 3:44
  change the story
• 3:45
  every year of your life you change the story and if you're
• 3:49
  famous you get to be
• 3:51
  someone like paul mccartney who gets locked into pretty much
• 3:55
  answering every
• 3:56
  interview with the same answers and after a while you can
• 4:00
  remember what you said
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: last time
• 4:03
  But you have that many sort of incarnations removed from what
• 4:08
  actually happened.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: So the book came out in what, 2011 or 2009?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's been out for quite some time.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: 2009 in England, 2010 in the States, I think.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 4:19
  and I'm appreciative of you being willing to talk about
• 4:22
  something that isn't the
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: brand new book,
• 4:24
  although we will talk about themes in general across rock stars
• 4:27
  and celebrity
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: narcissists.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: But,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 4:30
  the theme of this podcast is about money and happiness with the
• 4:34
  underlying question
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: being like,
• 4:35
  why don't the things that we think are going to make us happy
• 4:38
  make us happy?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: And this is
• 4:40
  Perhaps one of the most extreme examples in our lifetime of the
• 4:43
  people who had more
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: than anyone can ever dream of in terms of fame and success and adulation.
• 4:48
  And yet here they were really torn to pieces personally and
• 4:53
  interpersonally at the
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: height of their success.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you think that comes from?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, goodness me.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 4:59
  you set me up perfectly for my favourite ever quote from an
• 5:03
  interview I did,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: which is from Allen Ginsberg.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And he said to me,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: fame is a curse with no redeeming features,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: not just not very many redeeming features,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: no redeeming features.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And he was telling me about being in Greenwich Village with Bob Dylan.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they were talking about going into a bar.
• 5:24
  And Ginsburg was saying to Dylan,
• 5:26
  it looks a great bar,
• 5:27
  you know,
• 5:28
  we'll be fine in there.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Dylan just shook his head and said,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: as soon as I go in,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: it's not a great bar,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: for the neighbourhood.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: People stop talking to each other and they're just watching,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: watching me,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: which is such a sort of vivid illustration of what fame does to you.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so for the Beatles,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: they had that every dream came true and then every dream brings with it
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: complications and nightmares.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And plus it's human nature to fall out.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's human nature to start to think that your best friend is maybe
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: creaming 10% off the top that you are not getting.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And as I'm sure you've discovered down the years,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: the more money you've got and the more you're earning,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: the more you think you should be earning even more.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Your appetites are unlimited, really.
• 6:24
  Hamlet says the appetite grows on that which it feeds or
• 6:27
  something like that.
• 6:29
  Whereas someone like me,
• 6:30
  who's earning virtually nothing these days in my old age,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: You just go, oh, OK, fair enough.
• 6:36
  Which which brings me to I've been thinking about happiness
• 6:39
  prior to talking to you.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, yeah, money is great.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously you want enough money to live.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: You want a roof.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: You want food.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: You want companionship.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Most of all, you want freedom.
• 6:53
  certainly for me as a writer the great freedom is not working
• 6:57
  for somebody else's
• 6:57
  magazine anymore but having 25 years of okay not earning much
• 7:02
  money but i decide
• 7:03
  what i do every day when i get up yeah you can't put a price on
• 7:07
  that so and often
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: the more famous you are the more you get locked into
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: a system,
• 7:14
  an institution that demands that you keep producing and keep
• 7:19
  turning up in places
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: where you don't want to be.
• 7:22
  Well,
• 7:22
  let's tell some stories that demonstrate the conundrum the
• 7:26
  Beatles found themselves in.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: So you start somewhere around 1967.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: At this point,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: the Beatles had five or six gigantic albums,
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: four or five years of worldwide success.
• 7:38
  And then they start to think,
• 7:39
  well,
• 7:39
  we want to do this kind of on our own.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: We want to be more self-deterministic from a...
• 7:44
  from a business standpoint,
• 7:46
  and yet they had no experience whatsoever in business.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And as they say, calamity ensues.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the big, I mean, in the Beatles story, there are so many what ifs.
• 8:02
  And the biggest one,
• 8:03
  I think,
• 8:03
  is what if Brian Epstein hadn't died of a drug overdose?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Manager Brian Epstein.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: 1967.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because he maybe wasn't financially the greatest manager in the world.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: And they were paying him 25% of every dollar earned, right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Not quite Colonel Tom, but still a hefty chunk.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: What did the Colonel get?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: 50%, I guess.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, but he cared about them and they trusted him.
• 8:31
  So it didn't matter if they could have made more money with
• 8:33
  somebody else.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: They knew that he wasn't going to sell them out.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't going to shaft them.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that ultimately he would do what was best for them as people.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they vanish...
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: As you say, they've had this idea they could do it by themselves.
• 8:49
  They've come up with the idea of helping to relieve the tax
• 8:53
  burden and also showing
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: off to the world how successful they are by forming a corporation.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then that becomes like an octopus of corporations,
• 9:08
  a massive octopuses of corporations that covers retail and
• 9:13
  publishing and films and
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: education.
• 9:17
  And in none of these areas,
• 9:18
  apart from making music,
• 9:19
  have they got any experience?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: So they suffer from the conceit that so many people,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: perhaps myself included,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: have fallen prey to,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: which is I've been very successful in this realm of life.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: So certainly I'll be very successful in this other realm of life,
• 9:38
  even though I don't have experience and I don't have any reason
• 9:43
  to expect that I
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: will be other than just a very high sense of regard for myself.
• 9:51
  yeah and even even beyond that self-regard the beatles made
• 9:55
  absolutely sure it
• 9:56
  wasn't going to work by choosing the people who they chose to
• 10:02
  run all the different
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: elements of their corporation which was not who's the best at this but
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love that guy I went to school with.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, he hasn't worked in retail before, but he's a great guy.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: We always have fun.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: He can run this division, or we've got a road manager.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: He can be in charge of the record company.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so it went on.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a question of people they liked socially and trusted,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: but only on a personal level,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: as against what anybody would do these days,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: which is who's the top corporate lawyer,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: who is the business expert.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Okay,
• 10:38
  and so the Beatles themselves are a group of young guys who
• 10:42
  found fame after,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: after forging themselves in the Cavern Club in Germany.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: They played hundreds, maybe thousands of shows together.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: They get worldwide fame.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then four or five years later...
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: They want to be individuals.
• 10:58
  Paul and John have been writing together or writing separately
• 11:01
  and publishing their
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: music together.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: George Harrison,
• 11:04
  who in retrospect is an equal genius perhaps from a songwriting
• 11:10
  and composing
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: standpoint,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: but he's getting maybe one or two songs,
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: a record,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: And he's really definitely the junior member.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then Ringo's there to,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: as drummers do,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: keep the time and and and keep the beat right and keep everybody happy.
• 11:23
  So each of these individuals starts to become more of
• 11:25
  themselves than than than Beatle first.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: How does that affect the the the workings of the group?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they're so young for a start.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you mentioned George when they're doing Sergeant Pepper in 67.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's 24 years old.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my gosh.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't realize.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: when you think back to oneself at 24,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I would have wanted to be in charge of a business empire.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: But he's world famous.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So he, like the others, thinks, well, of course I can do it.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: But they are going in different directions.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing looking back.
• 12:01
  If you get old rock fans over a certain age together and they
• 12:06
  have an argument
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: about what's the best year ever in rock,
• 12:09
  often they'll come up with 1966 as the answer because it's like
• 12:14
  the birth of
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: psychedelia and lots of other revolver and the birds and Dylan.
• 12:20
  1966 was the year that george harrison announced that rock
• 12:23
  music was boring and
• 12:24
  dead and actually he was only interested in indian music so by
• 12:27
  66 he's 23 he's
• 12:30
  grown out of the beatles wow that's the first big strain um you
• 12:35
  throw into that um
• 12:37
  all four of them to different degrees are um how can i put it
• 12:43
  blowing their minds
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: experimentally
• 12:45
  with substances that maybe alter the way they think long term
• 12:51
  they're all getting
• 12:51
  married they're all their first relationships are breaking up
• 12:55
  and they're getting
• 12:56
  new new girlfriends they're just being pulled in so many
• 13:00
  different directions um
• 13:03
  and they're also falling prey to the oldest thing of all which
• 13:07
  is in the rock
• 13:08
  business you form a band with people you get on with when
• 13:12
  you're a teenager and
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: then you're stuck with them for life
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, everybody, we'll be right back with Peter Doggett in just a second.
• 13:19
  I want to take one second to say thank you very much for
• 13:22
  listening to this podcast
• 13:23
  and to ask you the favor of sharing this with one friend that
• 13:27
  you think would get
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: value out of it.
• 13:29
  And to take a second to throw five stars worth of rating at the
• 13:34
  algorithm by
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: clicking on the rate and review link in the show notes.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's down there at the bottom.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: After I describe who Peter Doggett is, it says, hey...
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: Do Paul a favor, rate and review the podcast.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Click on that button, friends, and rate and review it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Also,
• 13:48
  I want to let you know I've got some great shows coming up
• 13:50
  around this fine country
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: of ours.
• 13:52
  May 3rd,
• 13:53
  I'll be in Charlotte,
• 13:54
  North Carolina with Paul Faravar at the Comedy Club at
• 13:57
  Duxworth.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: May 20th, I'll be at Dunwoody Country Club with Aaron Weber.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: That is a private show for members only,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: but if you know people at Dunwoody Country Club,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: you tell them to come out and see us.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: May 21st, I'll be with Paul Faravar again.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: At the Punchline, right there in Buckhead.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: The Punchline in Atlanta.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: May 22nd and 23rd,
• 14:20
  we will be at the DC Comedy Loft for four shows in the basement
• 14:24
  where the cool
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: people hang out.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: June 4th at Atlanta Athletic Club in Johns Creek, USA.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: Also a private show.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: That one is going to be with...
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Andrew Stanley.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's who's headlining that night.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: And if I got that wrong, I'm going to come back and edit it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're listening to this and it's not edited, it's Andrew Stanley.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's who it is.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that Andrew Stanley, son of that other Andrew, Andy.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know who he is.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, you should come out.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to be great.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you have to be a member of...
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Atlanta Athletic Club.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Also,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: June 19th and 20th,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Paul Farivar and I will be at the Comedy Catch in Chattanooga,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: Tennessee.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: Great excuse to go to Buc-ee's.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: actually,
• 15:06
  I won't go to Buc-ee's because I'm just going to fly into
• 15:08
  Chattanooga and go right
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: to the club.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so come on out.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Tickets are available for all those shows on the club websites.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: If you have any problems, email me at paul at crazymoneypodcast.com.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: The crazy money DNA is still in there, people.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks very much for listening.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now back to Peter Doggett.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: So about this time, okay, let's do the chronology here.
• 15:31
  Sergeant Peppers comes out in 67,
• 15:33
  perhaps the pinnacle of rock music at the time.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Magical Mystery Tour, November 67.
• 15:41
  And by the way,
• 15:41
  the volume of their work over five or six years is just
• 15:46
  stunning.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: The White Album comes out November 68,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yellow Submarine January 69,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Abbey Road is released in September 69,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: and then they close it out with Let It Be,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: the release in May of 70.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that's just an enormous amount of work in the studio,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: but their dynamics change because George wants more credit,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: because Yoko shows up,
• 16:10
  and then you start to see the splintering of the band long
• 16:13
  before it reaches the
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: court.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:17
  um a part of that is natural because as you mentioned Lennon
• 16:21
  and McCartney weren't
• 16:23
  writing that much together anymore and their natural tastes
• 16:26
  were pulling in
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: different directions also not only was John then having his mind blown by
• 16:33
  taking acid and whatever else he was ingesting at the time but
• 16:37
  he also was having
• 16:38
  his whole sort of philosophy of life and music um overturned by
• 16:43
  by meeting yoko
• 16:44
  mono who came from the new york avant-garde scene and made him
• 16:49
  look at himself and
• 16:51
  art and creativity in an entirely different way now obviously
• 16:55
  every beatles fan's
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: got a different point of view about whether
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Whether Yoko broke the Beatles up.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, come on.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's clear that she did.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Clearly she did.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: She certainly altered the dynamic.
• 17:08
  And in particular,
• 17:09
  in 68,
• 17:10
  when they're first together,
• 17:12
  she ends up in the studio.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you can see it in the Peter Jackson films the other year,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: the Get Back films,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: that she's in between John and Paul.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: She's in Paul's eyeline.
• 17:26
  Even if she's just sewing or knitting or reading the paper or
• 17:31
  whatever she's doing,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: he can see her the whole time.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that sort of intimacy and the ability to talk directly to each other,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: that goes when you've got the fifth person in the room.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: Literally sitting on Paul's amp sometime.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Which he still hasn't forgotten.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: I wondered after reading the book was was Yoko Paul's or sorry,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: John's,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:59
  cat's paw to break up the Beatles to do something that he
• 18:02
  didn't have the guts to
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: do for himself.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 18:08
  it is interesting if you look at footage in the Get Back series
• 18:13
  of John and Paul,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: there are moments when you can see they re-establish
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: that bond of being best mates that they'd had since they were teenagers.
• 18:22
  And certainly in 68 and 67,
• 18:25
  they're very much still best friends and equal partners.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: So something happens in the course of 68 into 69,
• 18:36
  and it can only be the John and Yoko relationship that sort of
• 18:42
  forces a wedge,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: if you like,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: between
• 18:45
  john and paul i don't think john wanted to do that until he did
• 18:50
  and then in 69
• 18:52
  suddenly he's he's thinking through yoko's eyes if you like and
• 18:57
  at that point he's
• 18:58
  going why do i want to stay with these old guys when i could be
• 19:01
  with this really
• 19:02
  inspirational creative woman she's amazing so yes at that point
• 19:06
  she does become the
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: cat's paw that you mentioned
• 19:08
  So in Yoko is is part of the problem here is that they've
• 19:13
  always had to be the Beatles.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: They've somewhat had to live up to the expectations of their fans.
• 19:19
  And Yoko is stylistically and racially absolutely at odds with
• 19:26
  what fans expect of the Beatles.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yes.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And just the fact that she,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: it's awful to say these days,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: you mentioned the racial thing,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: just the fact she's a woman and she's infiltrated this fab four of men.
• 19:41
  I think the other Beatles found that difficult because they
• 19:45
  didn't have their wives
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: and girlfriends in the studio.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Paul started to after Yoko turned up.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: But before that, it was like, no, this is a boys zone.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody else is going in there.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: But racially,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: you made the point that,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: and it didn't occur to me,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: but this was only,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: what,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: 23 years after the end of World War II.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: There was still lingering racial resentment,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: racism against the Japanese in the Western world at the time.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: and particularly in Britain,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: because of the experiences of the people who were taken prisoner,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: in Singapore particularly,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: and then the ones who survived to the end of the war,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: what they said about the way they'd been treated.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it was only just over two decades earlier.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it was rife in British society in the 60s,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: a really strong feeling against all Japanese people very unfairly.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly Yoko bore the brunt of that.
• 20:46
  And John and Yoko start on these very public displays of
• 20:52
  publicity feats as their
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: relationship expands.
• 20:58
  They're making movies and then eventually doing the bed end for
• 21:02
  peace during their
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: honeymoon in Amsterdam,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: I believe it was.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, this is outside what is expected of a Beatle.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's outside what is expected of any hip-hop star.
• 21:17
  and it's also it's not really in keeping with being an
• 21:20
  avant-garde new york artist
• 21:21
  either so it's the combination of those two different kinds of
• 21:26
  ethos it's lenin's
• 21:28
  fame and yoko's imagination but that sort of collide and
• 21:32
  explode and give them the
• 21:35
  the opportunity and also yeah just the idea that they could do
• 21:39
  something more with
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: what they've got than has been done in the past
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: Long about the same time,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: Paul finds the love of his life,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: and in retrospect,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: probably what people would say as well about Linda and Linda Eastman.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Compare and contrast Yoko and Linda.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, they're both experienced women.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: They've both been married before.
• 22:03
  Somebody once pointed out to me that the Beatles on tour in the
• 22:07
  60s had spent quite
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of time dallying with...
• 22:12
  fans they would have known for one night stands along the way
• 22:15
  you think that was
• 22:17
  probably quite exciting at the time it wouldn't have been very
• 22:20
  very stimulating um
• 22:23
  or you know certainly wouldn't have brought you long-term
• 22:25
  happiness and suddenly
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: they meet older more experienced women
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: who can meet them as equals on so many different levels.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: in terms of personality,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Linda is completely the polar opposite of Yoko,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: but she's not a walkover.
• 22:46
  I mean,
• 22:47
  she's an experienced photographer taking album covers for Jimi
• 22:51
  Hendrix and so on.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: She's doing work for magazines like Circus and Rolling Stone.
• 23:00
  You know,
• 23:00
  she's a strong independent woman from a family of music
• 23:03
  business lawyers.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she's she's from society and she has sort of an Upper East Side.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Is she cool about her?
• 23:11
  yeah but at the same time she's also very relaxed yeah she
• 23:14
  likes riding horses and
• 23:16
  she likes cooking and she's already got a daughter who paul
• 23:19
  falls immediately in
• 23:20
  love with and yeah he he becomes young heather's stepfather
• 23:26
  almost on the first day
• 23:27
  he meets linda they just get on like a house on fire when she's
• 23:31
  young and so she
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: opens up the world of uh what's the word
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Domesticity for Paul,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: in a way which previous girlfriends hadn't done,
• 23:43
  in the same way as Yoko has opened up the world of avant-garde
• 23:47
  adventure for John.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: One a little bit more stability inducing than the other.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:55
  So Paul also importantly,
• 23:57
  Linda's brother and father are in the entertainment business.
• 24:01
  And so he has somebody whose interests are aligned with him on
• 24:06
  the management and legal side.
• 24:08
  And this is germane and important to the story because Paul
• 24:13
  sort of cuts away from
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: the other three from a business perspective.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: And the other three choose to be managed by this guy, Alan Klein.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: Who is quite a character.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: He was a character from New York, yes.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: But as was Lee Eastman, Paul's father-in-law.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 24:31
  Paul made the very naive assumption that because his
• 24:34
  father-in-law was a music
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: business lawyer,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: that all the Beatles would want to be
• 24:39
  managed by him now if he'd stopped and thought about it for
• 24:43
  half a second he would
• 24:45
  have gone oh i wonder if they're going to be worried is he
• 24:49
  going to favor me over
• 24:51
  them that didn't seem to be a big a big concern of paul's no he
• 24:56
  didn't think about
• 24:57
  that um at the same time um there's this guy alan klein who
• 25:03
  used to manage sam cook
• 25:06
  and has managed to get his hands on quite a number of the sort
• 25:10
  of top 60s pop bands
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: at various points.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: But they've got five, the Kinks, Herman's Hermits.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: He ended up sort of handling all these people.
• 25:19
  in the in the states and then most notoriously the rolling
• 25:22
  stones now by the end of
• 25:24
  the 60s the stones are desperate to get away from alan klein
• 25:28
  and so when john menon
• 25:31
  meets alan klein and likes him he invites mick jagger over to
• 25:36
  say well what's alan
• 25:37
  klein like and for reasons that known only to him uh mick goes
• 25:42
  well you know he's
• 25:43
  okay if you like that kind of thing and john goes i do and then
• 25:47
  from that void
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: onwards
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Klein and John and Yoko have a meeting.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Klein shows that he knows all John's songs backwards.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: He understands the music business.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And John is, in business terms, he falls in love with Klein.
• 26:04
  I can only think in retrospect that maybe Jagger was hopeful
• 26:09
  that if Klein got
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: involved with the Beatles,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: he wouldn't have time to worry about Stones anymore.
• 26:15
  So one of the things that's striking is that despite all the
• 26:18
  success the band has
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: had,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: there's all this,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: there's this back catalog and they're,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: as popular as ever.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: They're putting new records out.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: They're, you know, getting new royalties.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: All of them has major cash flow issues.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: because they have formed this corporation,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Apple Corps,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: which just loses money in all possible directions.
• 26:44
  They're being stolen from by some of their friends who are
• 26:48
  working for them.
• 26:49
  But basically,
• 26:50
  they're just pumping money into things that aren't bringing any
• 26:53
  money back in.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: They've got tax problems like every entertainer.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: they end up by the start of the 1970s,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: when all their money gets frozen because there's a dispute going on,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: they're more or less scuffling around,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: struggling,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: trying to get enough money to pay their rent every month.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: And they're living like rock stars with mansions and cars.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because why wouldn't you?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're the most famous rock stars in the world.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost expected of you.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a long entangled story that,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: isn't resolved in the courts for a number of years,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: actually.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: But how does the breakup eventually come to a head?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, it's in several stages.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ringo leaves first for a couple of weeks in 68 because he's fed up,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: he's learned how to play chess during the Sergeant Pepper sessions.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: The White Album sessions stretch on for six months.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And quite frankly, he's run out of board games to learn.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing else for him to do.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he quits.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then the others sort of buy him flowers and say,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: you're the best drummer in the world,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: please come back.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So he does.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: January 69, as you can see in the Get Back films, George leaves.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's just spent several months with Bob Dylan and the band,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: treating him seriously as a creative person.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Then he's back with the Beatles.
• 28:24
  Dylan is treating him seriously,
• 28:26
  which is something he never got from Paul and John.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's right.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And who is the only member of the Beatles that Dylan writes songs with?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's George.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and Dylan's arguably bigger than John and Paul.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's a guy that they looked up to.
• 28:42
  yes i mean if there'd been anybody that john and paul would
• 28:45
  have liked to have been
• 28:46
  asked to write songs by in the late 60s it's bob dylan it
• 28:50
  wasn't it wasn't ray
• 28:51
  davies like which all credit to ray you know like well that
• 28:56
  would have been a great
• 28:56
  combination davis and dylan yeah um but and then when george is
• 29:02
  back with the
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: beatles suddenly he's the little kid of the group again
• 29:06
  and they're treating him exactly the way they did when he was
• 29:09
  when he joined when
• 29:10
  he was you know 15 or whatever yeah and he goes i don't want to
• 29:14
  do this anymore so
• 29:15
  he walks out and then they managed to persuade him to come back
• 29:20
  then in the summer
• 29:21
  um after john and yoko been married for several months they've
• 29:26
  done the peace
• 29:26
  campaign they're making films they're doing art exhibitions um
• 29:31
  john wakes up one
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: morning and decides you know the beatles are boring they're bourgeois
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're middle class, they're old hat, they're predictable.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'd much rather be an avant-garde artist.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so he tells the rest of the band, oh, I'm leaving.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: And Alan Klein says,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a pain because I'm just renegotiating your record deal.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Please keep quiet about this.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: So he does.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: They all keep quiet about it.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then fast forward seven,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: eight months in the late spring of 1970,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Paul McCartney's about to release his first solo album.
• 30:05
  And he inadvertently let slip that maybe the Beatles have
• 30:09
  broken up and it becomes
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: a worldwide sensation.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And because he was the person who officially told the press,
• 30:16
  he's the one who goes down in history as the man who broke up
• 30:20
  the Beatles.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so ever since, he's been explaining.
• 30:24
  He still is in the most recent,
• 30:26
  in the new documentary film,
• 30:28
  Man on the Run.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's still saying it was John who left first.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's true.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really sad that after all his years, he still has to say that.
• 30:37
  But there was that headline,
• 30:38
  Paul tells high court,
• 30:39
  break up the Beatles or whatever it was.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the end of it.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: but Paul wants to,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: he wants to just quit and,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: chop the money up into four pieces and walk away.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: But of course there are corporations and lawyers and tax ramifications.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so it becomes obvious that
• 31:03
  the only way Paul can leave the Beatles is also by leaving the
• 31:07
  Beatles as a business empire.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: We've just been joined by a cat, I see.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's fine.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's totally fine.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: We like it.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: You may get a cat as the fifth Beatle.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
• 31:20
  Yeah,
• 31:21
  so Paul ends up having to sue to be released from the Beatles,
• 31:24
  which breaks his heart.
• 31:26
  It cements the idea in the rock press,
• 31:31
  particularly,
• 31:31
  that poor is the evil one.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, John's got very involved with radical politics.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's very easy to have the dividing line in...
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: in publicity terms,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: which is on one side,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: you've got John,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: George,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: and Ringo,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: and Alan Klein,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: and on the other,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: you've got this evil guy,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Paul,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: who has sued the rest of them.
• 31:55
  And that is what Paul has to fight against all the way through
• 31:58
  the first half of the 70s.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: So let's kind of try to summarize the individual artistic.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Now, they're all now solo artists, and each of them puts out
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: a mix of records, some great, some not even good.
• 32:12
  Again,
• 32:15
  in retrospect,
• 32:16
  it was really interesting to look at the discographies of all
• 32:20
  these guys.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: I remember like Ringo Starr had,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: who is sort of the Beatle with the lowest expectations from the public,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: actually had some of the best initial success post-Beatles.
• 32:31
  Yeah,
• 32:31
  and he was also the first one to persuade the other three to
• 32:34
  come on his album as well.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: in 1973, the Ringo album.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: At the start of the 70s,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: it was George who was the biggest,
• 32:43
  the biggest selling of all of them with My Sweet Lord and the
• 32:47
  All Things Must Pass
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: album.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, go ahead, please.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was just going to say,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: of all of them,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: you would have thought maybe John might be the most successful.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And he ends up really struggling,
• 32:58
  partly because of all the ramifications of the political stuff
• 33:02
  he's been doing and
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: because of his relationship with the old coach.
• 33:05
  and drugs i mean and he gets into heroin and he's drinking a
• 33:09
  bottle of brandy or
• 33:10
  vodka every day i mean he really becomes as uh one of as
• 33:14
  somebody who encountered
• 33:15
  him at those those during those years he's he's quite an he is
• 33:19
  a narcissistic
• 33:21
  addict who is abusing his kids and women that he's dating or
• 33:26
  women that he
• 33:26
  encounter i mean like it's just terrible his behavior for
• 33:28
  several years because
• 33:29
  he's hanging out with harry nielsen and keith moon what are you
• 33:33
  going to get
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: during these years.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: You're not going to get,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: a guy who's gardening and,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: going to church at night.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it's a shame you didn't tell us what you really thought then.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, apart from that, that was great.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly true.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: He was behaving like...
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And meanwhile,
• 33:54
  Paul was behaving like a family man with kids and being
• 33:57
  sensible and forming a band
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: and going on tour.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And just through sheer creative energy, he manages to
• 34:07
  become almost as successful in the 70s as the Beatles had been
• 34:11
  in the 60s.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not quite,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: he's a major touring attraction and he keeps having hit records.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: George,
• 34:18
  who is known for his obsession with Eastern music and Eastern
• 34:23
  religious philosophy,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: also has a personal life that is
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: He's doing drugs.
• 34:33
  When he gets tired of chanting the Hare Krishna stuff,
• 34:37
  he'll turn to cocaine in the evening.
• 34:39
  And his personal life is like he has a harem or he's a part of
• 34:45
  a multi-couple,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: polyamorous group of people.
• 34:52
  where he's dating Ringo's wife and Eric Clapton's dating his
• 34:56
  wife and he's dating
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: his wife's sister.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, it's crazy.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's very complicated.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also Ronnie Wood is in there somewhere as well.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think he was dating George,
• 35:09
  but that was about the only combination that they didn't try
• 35:12
  along the way.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: As far as we know, you know.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, I know.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the second half of the 70s,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: he's with Olivia,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: who he then spent the rest of his life with.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yes,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: he is a conundrum,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: a brilliant conundrum,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: George,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: because fantastically talented,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: but not that interested for a lot of the time in actually making music.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: He would rather go to the Formula One races and mess about in his garden.
• 35:43
  very spiritual,
• 35:44
  very much into a philosophy of the everyday physical world
• 35:50
  doesn't matter.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
• 35:53
  really interested in money and making as much as possible and
• 35:57
  having as many houses
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: as possible.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, he was a flawed human being like the rest of them.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: And Ringo had a very long...
• 36:06
  Horrible experience with drugs and alcohol as well that in
• 36:09
  modern history,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: you don't think about Ringo as being a troublemaker.
• 36:12
  But he was he was living a vacuous rich man celebrity life in
• 36:16
  Monte Carlo that
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: included it was just sort of a mobile feast of drugs and alcohol.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, particularly alcohol was what really, really almost killed him.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: He nearly died at the end of the 70s.
• 36:32
  And no doubt there were other occasions that we don't know
• 36:34
  about as well when he
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: came close to the edge.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because he'd had that brief early peak in his solo career.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And after that, it's like, well, OK, that was a novelty.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what can I do to get people interested?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And musically, he didn't have enough to offer.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the great thing about Ringo is that when he cleans up,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: when he goes to the Betty Ford Clinic or the equivalent in the late 80s,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: he cleans up for good.
• 37:00
  and he's still with us he was the oldest of the beatles he's
• 37:02
  still on the road he's
• 37:04
  fantastically slim and fit he can still run around the stage at
• 37:08
  the age of what is
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: he 85.
• 37:10
  he it's an amazing thing that this guy who was so close to
• 37:16
  death in his 30s is now
• 37:19
  he's the fittest old timer out there yeah it's it's never too
• 37:24
  late is is is the
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: story there
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm clinging to that hope.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: OK, so you write there.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: There is a guy named Lawrence Shames or Shamus.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know his name.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: He was a journalist and wrote an Esquire.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: This, I believe, was late 70s.
• 37:39
  The mistake people make is to regard the Beatles as young
• 37:42
  boyish stars of fond memory.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: In fact,
• 37:45
  they are middle aged men who have had lots of money for a long
• 37:48
  time and have had
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: and have become conservative about it.
• 37:53
  And this is not only important because it's a great summary of
• 37:57
  where the band is in
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: the late 70s,
• 37:59
  but supposedly it's also the article that inspires Mark David
• 38:03
  Chapman to shoot John
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Lennon.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: because the article,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: which I think came out in the summer of 1980,
• 38:09
  it goes into detail about all the different houses that John
• 38:15
  owned and the antiques
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: and Yoko's fur coats or whatever.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: So much for no possessions, right?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not convinced that was the reason that the killing took place,
• 38:31
  but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole because we'll be
• 38:33
  here all year talking
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: about that one.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: But yes,
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: what you just said is about,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: this guy said about the Beatles,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: it's true of every celebrity.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Once you get money,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: you, unless you're very unusual, you go out of your way to protect it.
• 38:50
  And that means building an empire around the money in the same
• 38:55
  way that in the 60s,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: they built the empire around the music.
• 38:58
  So another thing that dawns on me on reading the book is that
• 39:04
  Lenin has the luxury of dying.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't mean that in a snarky way at all.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean that he is...
• 39:13
  He gets a sense of absolution because he's murdered and because
• 39:17
  just before he's
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: murdered,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: he puts out double fantasy in which he sings Starting Over.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: He sings Beautiful Boy.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: He sings – well,
• 39:26
  I guess Starting Over is all about asking for forgiveness and
• 39:32
  the humility to go
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: back to your wife after you've behaved –
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: So horribly for so many years.
• 39:37
  And so he seems to have had this spiritual Febreze sprayed on
• 39:43
  his on his history
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: and he dies at 40 years old,
• 39:46
  whereas McCartney has the the obligation to go on living an
• 39:50
  infallible life.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: and even on the day Lennon dies,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Paul McCartney is trapped on the street by a reporter who says,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: how do you feel?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: To which the only answer would be a string of four-letter words.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: But Paul does his best to explain it's a very sad day.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end, all he can say, just to sum up,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: The awful horror of it all.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: He says it's a drag, isn't it?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: Not the most sensitive media training he's got there for.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, but it's from the gut.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there are no words I can use to describe how terrible I feel.
• 40:31
  So what I'm just going to say is it's a drag and get in the car
• 40:34
  and go away.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that gets used against him for decades afterwards to speak.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Paul was glib and he didn't care.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: He cared as much as anybody on earth about John dying.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: You've met a lot of rock stars in your time.
• 40:49
  Who are some of the more troubled when it comes to money,
• 40:53
  money in a sense of self?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, money.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you could go through every celebrity basically, couldn't you?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Having just written the book about the Beach Boys,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Brian Wilson,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: my goodness,
• 41:04
  the most talented guy in the universe and also one of the least
• 41:09
  well-adjusted sort
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: of human everyday life.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you get one without the other?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: It would be lovely to think so, wouldn't it?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: Does a regular family guy, father of two, put pet sounds together?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, possibly not.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: when we were corresponding before,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: to set this up,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mentioned Van Morrison to you.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I met, well, I've been in the close vicinity of Van twice.
• 41:41
  The first time was it was in a cafe in London where it was
• 41:45
  really busy at lunchtime.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd forgotten that it was an art centre.
• 41:50
  And I'd forgotten that Van was playing that night with the
• 41:52
  Irish band,
• 41:53
  the Chieftains.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole cafe was full up apart from one table.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, that's right.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'll go grab that and have my sandwich and a cup of tea.
• 42:02
  And then I realized why nobody had taken that table because on
• 42:05
  the next table was
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Van Morrison in the worst mood you've ever seen anybody in.
• 42:11
  And he just sat there going,
• 42:16
  and then he had a roadie with him who we go,
• 42:20
  it's all right.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we will sort it out for tonight.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: And there'd be a long silence.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just like that.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like he was giving off death rays around him.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are maybe 100 people in the cafe.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody is going over to say, I love Moondance.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love Astral Weeks.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're my favorite singer.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Will you sign my, you know, sign an autograph for me?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody went anywhere near him.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then fast forward 15 years,
• 42:50
  I get to interview him and I'm in a hotel room in Northern
• 42:54
  Ireland with Van and
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: trying to get him to say anything beyond was almost impossible.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it struck me afterwards.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have never met anybody and I hate to say this,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Van,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: but I've never met anybody less comfortable in their own skin.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: even when I turned the tape recorder off and we got to the end,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: I stood up and said,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: by the way,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: I do really love that new album you just put out.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: And he looked really shocked for a second and said, oh, really?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, yeah.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that was it.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was it.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was the end.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I really brought up a really close rapport with him, as you can see.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: You wrote a book about Crosby,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: Stills and Nash and their music is...
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: And their harmonies are unparalleled.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I've heard an interview with David Crosby and I came away thinking,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard a more ungrateful person in my entire life.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love Crosby.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love his music.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've been with him on quite a few occasions.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen him be really cold and nasty.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen him be the loveliest guy on earth.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Even Graham Nash,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: who has a really good reputation,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen him in a really bad mood,
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: like everybody can be.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the great tragedy for me of Crosby,
• 44:17
  Stills and Nash is that Crosby and Nash were best friends from
• 44:20
  the late 60s.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last however many years it was,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: five,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: six,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: seven years of Crosby's life,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: they weren't speaking to each other.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that seems really, really sad.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: But, yeah, I mean, you could go through.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I got one more for you.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, OK.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: Another one.
• 44:38
  So I'm a big Warren Zevon fan because I think he's not only a
• 44:43
  terrific musician and
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: a songwriter,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: but he's very,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: very funny.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, his songs are infused with darkness and humor.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so I read the book that his ex-wife wrote, I'll Sleep When I'm Dead.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: And after I read it,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: I was like,
• 44:59
  I wish I hadn't read that because it catalogs or chronicles
• 45:05
  some behavior where you
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: go,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: gosh,
• 45:08
  I'd kind of like to be able to listen to the music without
• 45:10
  knowing that about the
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: person who wrote it.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: But have you ever read a rock biography of anybody who wasn't like that?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: I suppose not.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: I suppose not.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there must be exceptions.
• 45:20
  I mean,
• 45:20
  I was sad to see the other day that Neil Sedaka had died,
• 45:25
  aged 96.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: And he had an amazing career as a songwriter and as a performer.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And as far as I know,
• 45:31
  I think he was probably only married once and he was a really
• 45:34
  devoted father and
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: grandfather.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't sound like a very exciting book, does it?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Which is probably why nobody's ever written one.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: Read, check it that you get inside the jacket.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: 65 years of marriage.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_03: Learn the secrets.
• 45:50
  So did write this question from my friend Mack Randall,
• 45:53
  also another music journalist.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: He wanted to know,
• 45:55
  did writing the book about the Beatles change a relationship to
• 45:58
  the music or to any
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: of the principles in the band?
• 46:02
  I felt more sympathetic for Paul than I perhaps expected to be
• 46:07
  because he was left
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: in the position of
• 46:13
  being very,
• 46:15
  very strongly provoked by John and by George at crucial
• 46:18
  moments.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there were so many times when I,
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: as I was writing the book,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was shouting at him saying,
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: don't react,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: walk away,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: don't say.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: He has to say, no, that's not right.
• 46:32
  And he always says something and it always makes things worse
• 46:35
  for himself.
• 46:37
  So can you have empathy for Van Morrison when he doesn't want
• 46:41
  to do an interview in
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: those circumstances?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 46:44
  I can have empathy for anyone who doesn't want to sit in the
• 46:47
  hotel room with me for
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: an hour.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's perfectly understandable.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: he doesn't like doing interviews,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: to which I would say,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: don't do them then,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: if it makes you that unhappy.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: So the pressure's coming from his publicist and his manager,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: do the interview,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: the album needs the support,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: we're not selling well in these cities,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: blah,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: blah,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: blah,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: would help,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: that kind of thing.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: But then he's got to say something interesting,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: but not too interesting,
• 47:13
  that he doesn't come across like a person he doesn't want to
• 47:16
  come across as.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there are rock stars who are very good at that.
• 47:21
  And your job as a journalist is to get something interesting
• 47:24
  out of the guy.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:28
  And so if you're with someone like Keith Richards,
• 47:30
  for example,
• 47:31
  he can always tell a good story.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas Mick Longo, not so much.
• 47:34
  Mick doesn't want to tell good stories and he can't be bothered
• 47:38
  to rack through his
• 47:39
  brain and try and remember what it was like 60 years ago
• 47:43
  because he was there then
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: and now he's here and he's not interested anymore.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: So do you think somebody is born...
• 47:52
  a narcissist or do you become a narcissist when the world tells
• 47:56
  you that you're the
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: best thing ever to exist?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't sure if you were talking about me for a second there.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: And was I born a narcissist?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: Peter, were you born a narcissist?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: What is it about you and your narcissism?
• 48:10
  Yeah,
• 48:10
  I think the first time I saw myself in the mirror as a baby,
• 48:12
  that was it.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think narcissism...
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's an impossible question.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is one of the trappings of success because I mean,
• 48:27
  I would like to ask you because you've interviewed all sorts of
• 48:30
  people on the
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: subject of success,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: 99% of whom I guess are much more successful than me.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: So what's their answer?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: What do they think about success and happiness?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, um,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think you have to look at success as a,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: and the Beatles are a perfect example of this,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: is that success means different things at different ages.
• 48:57
  And that the older you get,
• 48:58
  the more you value the long-term version of success.
• 49:02
  Because being rich and famous when you're 25 and broke and
• 49:06
  strung out when you're
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: 50 isn't the trajectory that you want.
• 49:12
  um you know you it'd be nice to have some longer slower burning
• 49:18
  version of success
• 49:19
  that's sustainable than to have some peak and then you know
• 49:22
  spend the rest of the
• 49:23
  year talking about what it was like back you know when we were
• 49:25
  fab yeah yeah um
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: there's also the thing that in the last 20 years particularly the whole
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: The craze of reality television and TV talent shows and so on has school
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: generations of kids into thinking,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: what do you want to be when you grow up?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be a,
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: a fire officer or a policeman or an engine driver or a nurse.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be famous as if that's going to solve everything.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we're also telling our kids, you can all be famous.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's another clue for you.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can't.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you are, you probably won't enjoy it.
• 50:10
  Going back to your question,
• 50:10
  I think the most consistent attribute of the people who
• 50:15
  have been successful over time is gratitude and a sense of
• 50:20
  enoughness to say,
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to do these things because I want...
• 50:24
  Just as you said earlier at the beginning of the interview
• 50:26
  where you said when you
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: wake up in the morning,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: you have independence.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: And while you might not have the...
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_03: The headlines you used to have and the money that came with them,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: you have something that you can be grateful for.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you can look at that and say,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm living my life the best way I can given the circumstances of my life.
• 50:45
  And it doesn't make a lot of sense to beat my head against the
• 50:49
  wall about whether
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: it's fair or unfair or what used to be.
• 50:53
  It's to look at today and say,
• 50:54
  this is the best use of my time and I'm going to appreciate it.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: which I think,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Paul McCartney probably does,
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: but he is still old school enough that he,
• 51:05
  I think there is part of Paul that rates himself on how
• 51:09
  successful his last single
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: was,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: because that's what success was in 1962.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that incredible?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:16
  the yeah the the there's a performer in england called cliff
• 51:19
  richard who in the 60s
• 51:21
  and 70s was as popular as anybody in this country and he's
• 51:24
  still performing live
• 51:25
  and still making records he's the same age as john lennon and
• 51:29
  ringo um and he's
• 51:31
  another one from that school it's all about can i have a number
• 51:34
  one record this
• 51:35
  christmas and then i don't exist that's incredible whereas i
• 51:39
  think someone like
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: george harrison got to the point of thinking
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a great house, great garden.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love my wife and my son.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's enough.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's leave it there.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: Peter,
• 51:49
  thank you so much for the enormous effort and research that
• 51:53
  went into this book
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: that is called You Never Give Me Your Money.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the subtitle is The Beatles After the Breakup.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're a Beatles fan, I highly recommend this book if you can.
• 52:06
  if you can separate yourself and not judge the individual
• 52:09
  actors who created,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: let me use this quote.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: The genius they created was something that not even money could destroy.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what a great writer came up with that.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost as if it should be the closing line of a book.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Peter,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: tell me also,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: tell me about where our readers can find you and the other,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: tell us a little bit more about the beach boys book.
• 52:32
  Well,
• 52:32
  the beach boys book,
• 52:33
  which I will hold up for you again,
• 52:35
  if you will,
• 52:36
  bear with me yeah it's only available in britain at the moment
• 52:39
  i'm hoping that
• 52:40
  maybe the paperback edition when we get to the states
• 52:43
  publishing is a weird
• 52:44
  business these days um and it's it's in some ways it's the
• 52:49
  opposite of you never
• 52:50
  give me your money which is a deep dive the beach boys book is
• 52:54
  it's looks at
• 52:55
  different themes through their lives and work tells the whole
• 52:58
  story but it's not
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: the chronological 2000 page what they did
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: every morning before breakfast.
• 53:05
  It's looking at the sort of major elements of the story and I
• 53:09
  think bringing it all
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: together in a way that I don't think anybody else has ever done before.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I love them and I still love them having written the book.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: But oh my God, what a sad story at the same time.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you,
• 53:22
  I listened to more Beatles in the last month and a half reading
• 53:25
  your book because I
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: wanted to go back.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: And again,
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: I know all these songs by heart,
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: not so much the solo catalogs,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: but really,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: the albums that I grew up listening to,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: Sergeant Pepper,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: which,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: gosh,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: you can listen to that a thousand times in a year and not,
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: and hear something different every time and the rest of it.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks again for all your work and thanks for your time today.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: I really enjoyed it.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: Peter Doggett, interesting to talk to this old school music journalist.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: He's seen a lot,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: he's met a lot of people,
• 53:55
  and let's just say he can probably see them with a little bit
• 53:58
  more honesty than
• 53:59
  most of us can see them on the other side of their highly
• 54:02
  produced public images
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: and recordings.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: It is somewhat bittersweet to read a book like this and think,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: God,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: I love this music so much,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: without admitting that the people behind it were highly flawed,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: just like you and I,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: and sometimes childish,
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: petty,
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: selfish,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: conniving philanderers that,
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: at our worst,
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_03: that's what we all have in us.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: And they were also 25 years old.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't my best at 25 years old, and neither were you.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it's maybe not fair to sit here at 56 and say,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: gosh,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: they weren't living with the wisdom of an old man.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: Here are my takeaways.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, money and fame won't make you happy.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know what will make you happy?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: Heroin.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: That'll make you happy.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: No, obviously.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm kidding.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: It'll make you happy for a very short period of time,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: and then it will destroy your life and everything in it.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: What makes you happy is good relationships,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: a sense of purpose,
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: but more importantly,
• 55:03
  appreciating that you have those things and living your life
• 55:07
  with gratitude around
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: it because you can be very,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: very rich and still feel as if you don't have enough money.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: Secondly, Yoko broke up the Beatles.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_03: Let's be clear about this.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's not racist to say it.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't say Yoko from Japan broke up.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I just said it now.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, Yoko broke up the Beatles.
• 55:28
  Go watch those tapes and look at her sitting on Paul's amp and
• 55:31
  try to pretend to
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: tell yourself that she didn't break up the Beatles.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: She broke up the Beatles,
• 55:35
  but she did it because I think John subtly wanted it to happen
• 55:39
  and didn't have the
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: guts to do it themselves.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's my theory.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: I just came up with that 40 years, 45 years later.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: 50.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: God, how many years ago was that?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 55 years later.
• 55:51
  All right,
• 55:51
  lastly,
• 55:52
  not lastly,
• 55:53
  but sort of lastly,
• 55:54
  money doesn't change you.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_03: It amplifies you.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: This was told to me by a billionaire, and I believe it 100%.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because money removes barriers.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: In what way?
• 56:06
  Well,
• 56:08
  when you have a lot of money,
• 56:09
  you will hire people who will be yes people to you.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: They have no incentive to be honest with you.
• 56:14
  They only have the incentive to continue their employment or to
• 56:18
  get more employment
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: slash money from you.
• 56:21
  So what tends to happen is that people surround themselves with
• 56:24
  yes people and
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: don't get questioned.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, are you sure this is a good idea?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you shouldn't do why, et cetera.
• 56:36
  Also,
• 56:36
  if you have money,
• 56:37
  you can afford to do crazy things that might not be good for
• 56:41
  you.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: You can not work.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: You can buy drugs.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: You can
• 56:46
  afford to drink yourself silly every single night because
• 56:50
  nobody's going to tell
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: you no and you don't have to go to work the next day.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: That is an amplification in the wrong direction.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: So money doesn't change you, it amplifies you.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_03: Thus, it is more important
• 57:02
  or it is that much more important to understand your values
• 57:06
  before the money comes.
• 57:08
  Because the more successful you come,
• 57:12
  the less necessary it will be to live by society's values.
• 57:17
  You must have your own code to make sure that you're navigating
• 57:20
  the world as a
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: wealthy,
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: successful,
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: famous person in the way that you'll be proud of
• 57:26
  when you read about it in the papers or when your kids read
• 57:29
  about it some years later.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: These things are all easy for me to say.
• 57:35
  We'll see what happens when I get the hundreds of millions of
• 57:38
  dollars from the
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: recording contract that I so richly deserve.
• 57:42
  Look how I live then and then you'll tell me if my words match,
• 57:47
  if my actions match my words.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's it for now.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: See you next time.